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Topic: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: LuiePL
Posted 2008-09-30 12:08:29 and read 4885 times.

It still needs to be approved by the city council & the FAA. Anyone know how this will impact operations at MDW? Do you see it as a positive or negative?

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...cing-plan-to-privatize-midway.html

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: AirportPlan
Posted 2008-09-30 12:17:36 and read 4859 times.

There is much more information of this deal at Crains Chicago Business.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=31219

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-09-30 14:46:45 and read 4721 times.

The Tribune has also picked up on it. As a rule, when King Daley and Co. announce plans to "privatize" something, it means they've devised a way to lock everyone else out and hoard the windfall!
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...ut_st/2008/09/daley-announces.html

This sidebar implies that given the leasing/privatization history of other infrastructure assets, MDW users will pay more, and the city will lock itself out of any boon in revenue:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...ure-sale-chicsep07,0,6786305.story

Despite WN's staunch presence, I don't foresee this working out too well given the shrinking airline industry, and lack of physical space for MDW to expand. Barring a huge, acrimonious "eminant domain" takeover of dozens of blocks of neighboring property (see "ORD expansion, lawsuits"), MDW will remain boxed within its current boundaries, effectively limiting the size and possibly frequency of flights.

The ongoing ORD expansion is another factor which will hold pro-Peotoners at bay for the foreseeable future, but also lessen the need for any MDW expansion. Legacy carriers have a history of dipping their toes into the MDW waters over the years, only to bail when pax loads proved disappointing at best.

In short, MDW isn't going to contract much if any, but it also isn't going to grow much if any. Operating costs aren't likely to go down any time soon and eventually, the prices of which will be passed down to the carrier...and then the pax. Perhaps Chicago's best course of action would to simply sell or lease MDW to WN!


777fan

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-09-30 15:55:45 and read 4649 times.

Anyone remember that Daley did with Meigs?

Danged near a square mile of prime real estate. It won't happen in the middle of the night soon, but I think most of us will live to see the airport closed and turned to other usage.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: BravoGolf
Posted 2008-09-30 17:17:04 and read 4589 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 3):
Danged near a square mile of prime real estate. It won't happen in the middle of the night soon, but I think most of us will live to see the airport closed and turned to other usage.

Please inform us how and why MDW would be closed? The winner will have a 99 year lease.

Top

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-09-30 17:24:34 and read 4567 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 3):
Danged near a square mile of prime real estate. It won't happen in the middle of the night soon, but I think most of us will live to see the airport closed and turned to other usage.

Daley's business with Meigs was controversial to say the least but in his defense, there were provisions to have the land returned to the city when the field was first built. If anything, MDW will probably be expanded at some point but will be a long, protracted process.

Didn't think about this in my earlier post, but if Chicago is gifted the 2016 Summer Olympics, it's possible that an expanded MDW could emerge from a Olympic construction land grab "in the best interests of the city and public" in the vicinity of the airport. Far be it from The Machine to rezone an entire neighborhood!


777fan

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: ChiGB1973
Posted 2008-09-30 17:32:47 and read 4537 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 3):
Danged near a square mile of prime real estate.

Without MDW, there is no prime real estate in that area. There would have to be massive improvements in the area to make it prime without MDW.

Is the heliport built on Northerly Island? When I lived up there, there was talk of it. I understood it to be closer to Navy Pier.

M

[Edited 2008-09-30 17:33:26]

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2008-09-30 17:39:14 and read 4519 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 3):
Danged near a square mile of prime real estate. It won't happen in the middle of the night soon, but I think most of us will live to see the airport closed and turned to other usage.

Somehow I don't see Daley (or any mayor) wanting to be known as the mayor that drove the predominant LCC in Chicago away. Meigs was a different story as it was used by hardly anyone. While those on this board feel passionately about Meigs, you're average Chicago resident doesn't miss it at all.

And quite frankly, the land MDW sits on isn't that prime. Not to mention that there is plenty of abandoned property on the south side of Chicago that developers could have for cheap...if they were interested.

The interesting thing about privatizing MDW is how WN will see it. Most privatizations generally lead to higher costs as the private operator pushes to make a profit. As the Tribune article points out, the Chicago folks were going out of there way to butter up WN to get WN to support privatization.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: MMEPHX
Posted 2008-09-30 17:54:18 and read 4497 times.



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 7):
Somehow I don't see Daley (or any mayor) wanting to be known as the mayor that drove the predominant LCC in Chicago away

WN got landing fees capped for 6 years below existing rates and then an agreement for another 19 years of inflationary increases (with inflation excluding food and energy factors which tend to drive the CPI more than other factors) can't see them going anywhere.



[quote=RFields5421,reply=3]Danged near a square mile of prime real estate. It won't happen in the middle of the night soon, but I think most of us will live to see the airport closed and turned to other usage.

Buyer is Vancouver Airports on a 99 year deal....can't see it closing anytime soon.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: Sphealey
Posted 2008-09-30 18:05:54 and read 4474 times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
This sidebar implies that given the leasing/privatization history of other infrastructure assets, MDW users will pay more, and the city will lock itself out of any boon in revenue:

The greybeards among us may remember that the City of Chicago acquired Midway Airport from the Chicago Board of Eduction (then an independent entity) during one of the BoE's perennial cash crises. 1979 IIRC, but it might have been 1977 or 1981. It is questionable whether MDW would have been able to revive to the extent it did under the City if the BoE has still been in control during the 1980s, but clearly the City reaped the profits of the Board's long-term ownership of that land.

sPh

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2008-09-30 18:05:09 and read 4472 times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
and lack of physical space for MDW to expand. Barring a huge, acrimonious "eminant domain" takeover of dozens of blocks of neighboring property (see "ORD expansion, lawsuits"), MDW will remain boxed within its current boundaries, effectively limiting the size and possibly frequency of flights.


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 crowded  Ouch

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: ChiGB1973
Posted 2008-09-30 18:10:13 and read 4461 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
Ouch

Ah now, that's a beautiful site!

I miss being on those TZ 757s rocketing out of there. To expand that airport would be a travesty.

M

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: Twinotter4ever
Posted 2008-09-30 18:30:52 and read 4428 times.

It sounds like Vancouver Airport services did something similar to what they originally did at YVR and allow the city to own the land while they run the airport. They do seem to create a decent facility, however for a company that supposedly operates as a non profit entity at YVR, they sure are doing some empire building with 18 other airports. To bad they couldn't get into a similar non-profit situation at Midway...

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-09-30 18:52:34 and read 4399 times.



Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 6):
Without MDW, there is no prime real estate in that area. There would have to be massive improvements in the area to make it prime without MDW.



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 7):
And quite frankly, the land MDW sits on isn't that prime. Not to mention that there is plenty of abandoned property on the south side of Chicago that developers could have for cheap...if they were interested.

Right, but that's where the Olympics would factor in. IIRC, many of the athlete housing would be in an area along/near the lakefront from 22nd Street, southward toward the Museum of Science and Industry. I remember seeing one plan that had some facilties as far south as the Cal-Sag Channel. Either way, if it's not prime now, it probably would be soon afterward. If not, prime, it'd at least be better than much of what's east of the Dan Ryan. Don't be surprised to see "eminent domain" invoked at will in conjunction with Olympic construction, should Chicago win 2016.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 7):
Somehow I don't see Daley (or any mayor) wanting to be known as the mayor that drove the predominant LCC in Chicago away.

MDW isn't going anywhere: the city put millions into revitalizing it in the 1990s and as was mentioned above, the prospective lease would be 99 years.


777fan

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2008-09-30 19:56:46 and read 4332 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 3):
It won't happen in the middle of the night soon, but I think most of us will live to see the airport closed and turned to other usage.

Privatization obviously changes the relationship between the City and the Airport. Which is to say, I see His Majesty pulling every imaginable maneuver to squeeze the airport for every last drop of graft dollar and concession. It turns the relationship into an adversarial one. Hopefully, His Majesty will cease to exist, or will be removed from office for corruption, long before he has time to poison the new relationship.

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 6):
Without MDW, there is no prime real estate in that area.

Amazing that those slums surrounding MDW can in any way be considered "prime real estate".

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: FreequentFlier
Posted 2008-09-30 20:25:20 and read 4305 times.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but is this not the first US airport to be privatized in the country? If so, a pretty big deal.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: ElBandGeek
Posted 2008-09-30 21:10:02 and read 4271 times.



Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 11):
I miss being on those TZ 757s rocketing out of there. To expand that airport would be a travesty.

I couldn't agree more.

However, I do wonder how the situation at MDW would be if TZ were still alive and booming, pre-2004 before the first bankruptcy that left them being nothing more than Southwest Premium. If they had continued their expansion (or at least leveled out) we could have had a mini version of UA/AA at ORD. I think the cause for Peotone could have been a lot stronger if MDW started stretching the capacity bubble and either WN or TZ deciced they needed more room. (theoretically this could have also happened had FL or HP taken over TZ's ops like they tried to instead of getting beaten out by WN)

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2008-09-30 21:43:37 and read 4244 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 14):
Amazing that those slums surrounding MDW can in any way be considered "prime real estate".

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. MDW is in a crappy neighborhood to put in nicely. When I lived in Chicago, I used to always take my girlfriend at the time (who refused to use ORD) there at ungodly hours in the morning and pick her up at dangerous hours at night. My car got broken into at a gas station on Cicero (just north of the airport) the last time I went there. From that point she used the Orange Line.

As congested as ORD is, I dont know what is really supposed to be done with MDW. I dont know how much expansion the area can take. There really isnt much room to do anything. I dont think there will be too many other carriers interested in serving MDW. The only good thing about it is that its quicker to the Loop than ORD if you take the L. The Orange line is quick and efficient, whereas the Blue line sucks. It always stops midway between stations or slows down to 15MPH randomly. Driving with no traffic, its only a few minutes longer to get to ORD.

At the end of the day, I dont know if privitization will benefit MDW. But I think the answer is improving ORD and not wasting much time with MDW.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: AirportPlan
Posted 2008-10-01 05:46:00 and read 4161 times.



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 15):
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but is this not the first US airport to be privatized in the country? If so, a pretty big deal.

MDW is the first major US commercial airport to be privatized. 75%+ of the commercial airports in the world are already privatized including many airport such as AMS, SYD and YVR that are rated among the world's best. Many people on this board do not understand the impact of this deal. I was at the Airport Council International North American and World Conferences were held in Boston last week. The people who run the top airports in the US and around the world were in attendence at this event. MDW Privatization was a MAJOR topic. The people who run virtually every other airport in the US are keenly watching the events at MDW. For better or worse this deal opens the door for airport widespread airport privatization in the US.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: AA757200
Posted 2008-10-01 11:44:06 and read 3551 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 17):
When I lived in Chicago.....the Blue line suck[ed]s. It always stops midway between stations or slows down to 15MPH randomly. Driving with no traffic, its only a few minutes longer to get to ORD.

That's almost no longer the case. The modernization program on the blue line is almost done, and it - hold your breath - seems to acutally be working. As a means of example, I got on at Washington two weeks ago around 4pm, and was at the ORD station at 4.37. That's insane.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-10-01 14:35:02 and read 3405 times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
As a rule, when King Daley and Co. announce plans to "privatize" something, it means they've devised a way to lock everyone else out and hoard the windfall!

My experience on the Skyway has been one of continual improvement since it was privatized. Has yours been different?

Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
MDW will remain boxed within its current boundaries, effectively limiting the size and possibly frequency of flights.

But this was considered when they built the new terminal. If there's gate space for you, there's airfield capacity to operate the flights.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 5):
Daley's business with Meigs was controversial

 checkmark  Daley's leadership at MDW and ORD, however, has been at least competent and in some cases better than that.

Quoting Twinotter4ever (Reply 12):
They do seem to create a decent facility, however for a company that supposedly operates as a non profit entity at YVR, they sure are doing some empire building with 18 other airports.

Are they gouging pax for parking or concessions at YVR? They own SCL, and food prices there seem pretty appropriate (as compared to food prices in Santiago itself).

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):
Either way, if it's not prime now, it probably would be soon afterward.

MDW is 6 miles from the lake...

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-10-01 17:37:34 and read 3345 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
MDW is 6 miles from the lake...

I know this. Consider rereading what I actually posted and understand that development in one area can very easily spur development in another. Case in point: the entire West Loop area was an abandoned craphole prior to the '96 DNC; getting to/from the UC was an exercise in drag racing. A concerted effort to build a "corridor" from the Loop westward toward the UC (remember the city mandate on wraught-iron fences ~ Madison Avenue?) no doubt facilitated development of the West Loop into what it is today. Neighborhoods come and go. The Pullman District and South State Street were among the most elegant locales in the city. Now? Not so much. That said, there's no reason why Olympic-related development couldn't spill over to the MDW area.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
My experience on the Skyway has been one of continual improvement since it was privatized. Has yours been different?

Other than the normal construction/congestion delay, it hasn't become any better or worse but I can guarantee it'll only get more expensive over time. Address the authors that wrote the article in question. From an urban planning perspective, the deal wasn't a good one since the initial investment has already paid for itself and has left the city locked out of any profit sharing for decades.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
But this was considered when they built the new terminal. If there's gate space for you, there's airfield capacity to operate the flights.

Really? Tell that to any a/c over 250K pounds...


777fan

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-10-01 19:27:51 and read 3296 times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 21):
Case in point: the entire West Loop area was an abandoned craphole prior to the '96 DNC; getting to/from the UC was an exercise in drag racing. A concerted effort to build a "corridor" from the Loop westward toward the UC (remember the city mandate on wraught-iron fences ~ Madison Avenue?) no doubt facilitated development of the West Loop into what it is today.

But you're ignoring a key fact here: they revitalized the west loop because it was the conduit from the loop to the United Center. There's no such logical explanation for revitalizing the area around MDW.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 21):
it hasn't become any better or worse but I can guarantee it'll only get more expensive over time.

What is the value of a trip on the Skyway?

Quoting 777fan (Reply 21):
Tell that to any a/c over 250K pounds...

 Confused  Confused


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Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-10-02 15:40:04 and read 3182 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
But you're ignoring a key fact here: they revitalized the west loop because it was the conduit from the loop to the United Center. There's no such logical explanation for revitalizing the area around MDW.

I'm not ignoring that at all, nor was I advocating revitalizing the MDW area. I was suggesting that the MDW area may benefit from the revitalization of areas around it.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
What is the value of a trip on the Skyway?

Depends on the individual. That said, Skyway traffic was down in at least Feb 2008 when compared to 2007 http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited...eds/afx/2008/03/06/afx4738351.html

(fair use excerpt): "MADRID (Thomson Financial) - Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte SA said traffic measured in daily trips on its Chicago Skyway totalled 39,788 units in February, down 4.63 pct from a year earlier."

May was even worse (down 13+%): http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/10062008/323...traffic-falls-13-01-pct-yr-yr.html


Finally, according to AirNav, here are the specs for MDW's 31C:

Runway Information
Runway 13C/31C
Dimensions: 6522 x 150 ft. / 1988 x 46 m
Surface: concrete/grooved, in good condition
Weight bearing capacity: Single wheel: 95.0
Double wheel: 165.0
Double tandem: 250.0

From what I've read, the MTOW for a 753 is about 270K lbs. Not sure if ATA's birds in/out of MDW were ever at MTOW (doubtful) but in essence, based on the available info, it appears that MDW's single-aircraft capacity would be limited to the 75-series or anything 250K pounds or less.


777fan

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-10-02 15:47:32 and read 3179 times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 23):
based on the available info, it appears that MDW's single-aircraft capacity would be limited to the 75-series or anything 250K pounds or less.

 checkmark  LGA, HOU, and LGB can't take 777s either. Does that make them bad airports? It's not like there's all this pent-up demand to fly widebodies to Chicago that ORD cannot support.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 23):
(fair use excerpt): "MADRID (Thomson Financial) - Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte SA said traffic measured in daily trips on its Chicago Skyway totalled 39,788 units in February, down 4.63 pct from a year earlier."

...so with tolls up ~40%, total revenue was up quite a bit. That seems like a good deal to me.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: 777fan
Posted 2008-10-02 16:56:23 and read 3130 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
LGA, HOU, and LGB can't take 777s either. Does that make them bad airports? It's not like there's all this pent-up demand to fly widebodies to Chicago that ORD cannot support.

Nope, and if you can identify the spot in which I claimed MDW was a "bad" airport, I'll guarantee you a Zambrano win tonite.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
...so with tolls up ~40%, total revenue was up quite a bit. That seems like a good deal to me.

...which gets back to my original point. Why didn't Chicago simply do the same exact thing to begin with? A number of economists cited in the articles linked above believe that over time, many of the municipalities in question would've made more money in the long run. That assumes, of course, they could manage to keep expenditures in tow, a practice or concept that regrettably alludes many public officials.


777fan

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2008-10-02 17:10:43 and read 3122 times.

This is good news, but the devil is in the details: if landing fees price caps are still in place, like with LHR, the venture will not be very successful.

Privatizing government assets (airports, ports, interstates) could go quite a long way in actually helping out the economy. But privatization needs to be done correctly to reap its benefits.

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2008-10-02 19:39:26 and read 3065 times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 25):
Why didn't Chicago simply do the same exact thing to begin with? A number of economists cited in the articles linked above believe that over time, many of the municipalities in question would've made more money in the long run. That assumes, of course, they could manage to keep expenditures in tow, a practice or concept that regrettably alludes many public officials.

You've seemingly answered your own question (though, IIRC, the Skyway lease had some provisions that permitted or required patronage hiring).

Topic: RE: Daley: MDW To Be Privitized In Exchange For $2.5B
Username: SFOHORIZON
Posted 2008-10-02 20:40:12 and read 3039 times.



Quoting 777fan (Reply 5):
If anything, MDW will probably be expanded at some point but will be a long, protracted process.

There is no way MDW is going to be expanded. It is surrounded on all sides by residential housing.
There is no will, no desire and no effort to expand MDW. It's not going to happen.


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