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Topic: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Ryu2
Posted 2008-11-28 01:53:42 and read 12683 times.

SHANGHAI, Nov 28 (Reuters) - China's first domestically developed regional aircraft, the ARJ21-700, completed its maiden test flight on Friday, the Xinhua news agency said.

The 90-seat jet, unveiled last December, landed safely at an airport in Shanghai after an hour's flight, Xinhua said on its website.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssT...iaTelecomNews/idUSSHA8510120081128

Pictures and more details articles for those who read Chinese:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2008-11/28/content_10426893.htm

[Edited 2008-11-28 02:01:47]

Topic: RE: Chinese-made Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Aloha717200
Posted 2008-11-28 02:03:02 and read 12661 times.

Good to see the boeing 717 still flying.  Wink

Nah really, I hope this little jet is successful, quite the beautiful aircraft, looks very similar to a 717, and I hope it does better saleswise.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Art
Posted 2008-11-28 04:10:24 and read 12487 times.

Congratulations to ACAC on getting the bird into the air!

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
I hope this little jet is successful, quite the beautiful aircraft, looks very similar to a 717, and I hope it does better saleswise.

If there are 208 on order as it says on the Reuters report, I think it has probably already outsold the 717.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-11-28 04:10:26 and read 12491 times.

Who made the engines?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Marquis
Posted 2008-11-28 04:46:10 and read 12403 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):

The ACAC ARJ21 is powered by GE CF-34-10A (68,2 KN) engines.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Art
Posted 2008-11-28 04:47:55 and read 12399 times.

General Electric - CF34-10A

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2008-11-28 04:51:06 and read 12384 times.

It's a DC9-10/20 with MD80 wings + winglet, oversized CRJ engines and CRJ flight deck systems... and errr... take out the eyebrow windows... new tailcone too perhaps????

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2008-11-28 04:52:18 and read 12375 times.



Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
Good to see the boeing 717 still flying.

Boeing? Puh-leeze... Mad Dog will always remain a Mad Dog!!! Big grin

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Wedgetail737
Posted 2008-11-28 05:17:35 and read 12329 times.

Looks more like an ultra-wide CRJ-700 to me more than a 717/MD-95 with winglets.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: RicciPettit
Posted 2008-11-28 05:27:05 and read 12302 times.

Is it me or does the underside and leading edge of the wings look dirty already?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: SIBILLE
Posted 2008-11-28 05:39:00 and read 12262 times.

Who ordered it? I know some chineese airlines and two for Lao Airlines but are there some other foreign airlines?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Flyf15
Posted 2008-11-28 10:15:26 and read 12025 times.

So how much in royalties will Boeing be getting paid per frame produced?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2008-11-28 10:31:14 and read 11972 times.

Flyf15, none, they´re not involved in this project, but the Sukhoi RRJ.
More on http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-arj21-completes-first-flight.html

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Dtw9
Posted 2008-11-28 10:34:12 and read 11957 times.



Quoting SIBILLE (Reply 10):
Who ordered it? I know some chineese airlines and two for Lao Airlines but are there some other foreign airlines?

Shanghai Airlines, Shandong Airlines and Xiamen Airlines,Kunpeng Airlines Co ( in partnership with Mesa and Shenzhen), GECAS,and LAO

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Flyf15
Posted 2008-11-28 10:42:59 and read 11929 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 12):
Flyf15, none, they´re not involved in this project

Well, in the sense that the Chinese practically copied major sections of MD airframes to make this thing, I would hope that Boeing is getting something out of the deal....

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: KcrwFlyer
Posted 2008-11-28 11:12:30 and read 11870 times.

Looks like a CRJ and a 717 had a kid...

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Aloha717200
Posted 2008-11-28 11:18:39 and read 11849 times.



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 15):
Looks like a CRJ and a 717 had a kid...

I'd have liked to have been a fly on the wall for that rendezvous XD.

Its not a bad looking kid though. Still, i dont see alot of NA operators on that order list....

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2008-11-28 11:51:22 and read 11748 times.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 14):
Well, in the sense that the Chinese practically copied major sections of MD airframes to make this thing, I would hope that Boeing is getting something out of the deal....

So tell me how does anyone make an aircraft which doesn't generally look like any other?
How many different ways can a basic tube with wings and engines be made to look?
Has Boeing got some sort of exclusive design patent on a tube with wings?
So, in the sense, you're talking nonsense......

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 16):
Still, i dont see alot of NA operators on that order list....

Why does there have to be?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Larshjort
Posted 2008-11-28 12:54:02 and read 11655 times.



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 17):

So tell me how does anyone make an aircraft which doesn't generally look like any other?
How many different ways can a basic tube with wings and engines be made to look?
Has Boeing got some sort of exclusive design patent on a tube with wings?
So, in the sense, you're talking nonsense......

No, but the jigs used is the same that was used to build MD80's in China.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Flyf15
Posted 2008-11-28 13:00:29 and read 11637 times.



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 17):
So tell me how does anyone make an aircraft which doesn't generally look like any other?
How many different ways can a basic tube with wings and engines be made to look?
Has Boeing got some sort of exclusive design patent on a tube with wings?
So, in the sense, you're talking nonsense......

I'm not the one here talking nonsense. This airplane has a substantial amount of its structure directly copied from the MD-80. Its not something that looks similar, it IS the same plane.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Phileet92
Posted 2008-11-28 13:59:24 and read 11267 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 6):
new tailcone too perhaps????

Yea! anyone notice the 777 style tail cone?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Art
Posted 2008-11-28 14:00:51 and read 11256 times.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 19):
I'm not the one here talking nonsense. This airplane has a substantial amount of its structure directly copied from the MD-80. Its not something that looks similar, it IS the same plane.

Doesn't it have a new (ie not based on MD-80) wing?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2008-11-28 14:07:24 and read 11205 times.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 11):
So how much in royalties will Boeing be getting paid per frame produced?

From Wikipedia:
"Although ACAC refers to the ARJ21 as "designed by Chinese with completely independent intellectual property rights", it is being built using tooling which was originally provided by the McDonnell Douglas company for licence-production of the MD-90 in China."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARJ21

I did not know GECAS had ordered five.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2008-11-28 14:17:35 and read 11111 times.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 11):
So how much in royalties will Boeing be getting paid per frame produced?

Absolutely nothing, but at least it doesn't seem as though the program is suffering huge delays.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2008-11-28 14:21:12 and read 11088 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 6):
MD80 wings + winglet,

The Russian designed wings are far more aerodynamic than the Maddogs. Its really a different aerodynamic concept.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 11):
So how much in royalties will Boeing be getting paid per frame produced?

You mean for rent on the MD-80 jigs?  Wink

Seriously, this plane will have a certain 'captive market.' But versus the MRJ, E-jets, and C-series it is unlikely to garner man (if any) export orders.

Quoting RicciPettit (Reply 9):
Is it me or does the underside and leading edge of the wings look dirty already?

Oh my god! AirFrance ordered this jet?!?  duck 

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Dtw9
Posted 2008-11-28 14:57:26 and read 11200 times.



Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 22):
I did not know GECAS had ordered five.

They didn't. They ordered 25

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2008-11-28 15:19:20 and read 11277 times.



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 27):

They didn't. They ordered 25

Wikipedia says 5 + 20 options.

(But they have been wrong before.)

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Dtw9
Posted 2008-11-28 15:40:06 and read 11125 times.



Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 28):
Wikipedia says 5 + 20 options.

(But they have been wrong before.)

Nope. You're right ,I'm wrong

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: USAFO1
Posted 2008-11-28 16:42:59 and read 10719 times.

Definitely looks like a cross between a 717 and a CRJ...

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-11-28 17:34:02 and read 10417 times.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 14):

Well, in the sense that the Chinese practically copied major sections of MD airframes to make this thing, I would hope that Boeing is getting something out of the deal....

It looks more like a CRJ than anything else.

Look, there are only so many shapes an airliner can reasonably take. Why don't you have this criticism for Bombardier or Embraer or Fokker? For that matter, Hawker-Siddely made a plane that looked a lot like the 727 (or did Boeing make a plane that looked an awful lot like the trident?).

And other than the twin-engine rear-mount thing, it looks nothing like a DC-9 variant. It doesn't have the double-lobed fuselage cross-section, it has a sharper nose, it has thicker, stubbier wings, and it appears that there are no doors to the main gear bay a-la 737.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2008-11-28 17:49:04 and read 10335 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):

And other than the twin-engine rear-mount thing, it looks nothing like a DC-9 variant.

To again quote from the - potentially inaccurate - Wikipedia article:

"Consequently, it bears a strong resemblance to the DC-9 series of aircraft, with an identical cabin cross section, nose profile and tail."

However:

"An all-new supercritical wing [...] has been designed by Ukraine’s Antonov."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARJ21

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Farzan
Posted 2008-11-28 17:54:41 and read 10262 times.

With less than one year between roll-out and first flight, there is no way Boeing had anything to do with this project  bigmouth 

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: WPIAeroGuy
Posted 2008-11-28 17:56:32 and read 10268 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):

Quoting Wikipedia:

"Consequently, it bears a strong resemblance to the DC-9 series of aircraft, with an identical cabin cross section, nose profile and tail."

It does in fact copy design elements. The Tu-204 looks like a 757, but as far as I know it doesn't have any identical pieces, whereas the ARJ-21 does.

It's not a DC-9 variant, but to say the ARJ-21 is to the DC-9 as the 727 is to the Trident is wrong, because the ARJ actually shares fairly large pieces with the MD-90. The ARJ does have a brand new wing, and I'm sure there's plenty more original parts. The fact that they use the DC-9 parts doesn't bother me in the least-Boeing did it with the 717. If you have the tooling legally why not use it?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Kokolojc
Posted 2008-11-28 18:40:22 and read 9994 times.

The size is perfect for some of those airlines in Indonesia, they should replace those old 737-200 birds...I know that Merpati Nusantara (MNA) has 2 of the Xian MA60 propliners........just my 2 Cents

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Glideslope
Posted 2008-11-28 19:41:33 and read 9693 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 6):
It's a DC9-10/20 with MD80 wings + winglet, oversized CRJ engines and CRJ flight deck systems... and errr... take out the eyebrow windows... new tailcone too perhaps????

Agreed. Good eyes.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Alangirvan
Posted 2008-11-28 20:42:26 and read 9377 times.

If the ARJ21 gets FAA/JAA certificates, will it win competitions where it is pitched against CRJ-900/1000 and E-190? It looks like it might be a bit heavier to carry a similar number of passengers as the well established types. Will the fuel burn be competitive? Will it stand up to the requirement to operate several sectors every day, and have long service intervals? A reliable aircraft is even more important in remote parts of the world, where the plane may be a long way from a service facility,

The Chinese Government could include the ARJ21 in some Foreign Aid packages. I think it is designed for rough air fields, and it would be a good replacement for 737-200s, if it can be provided at an affordable price.

It has already been a long time getting into the air, so newer types like the Bombardier C-series and the Mitsubishi RJ will have some advantages over it

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Warszawa
Posted 2008-11-28 21:15:06 and read 9201 times.

Fuselage appears nearly identical to Fokker 70, DC-9/717 nose, hard to see the tail but totally looks like an MD-90/717 tail, wings look totally like the CR7/9.

Some planes just look like total copouts, or half copied in some way. This looks like a total copout of variating Euro/Canadian/American designs.

You'll have these people on this board, "why cant you support someone trying to enter the market? planes all look similar, you know" - NO, planes do not "all look about similar" to eachother, unless you have a very, very poor eye for detail of aircraft. Kind of like walking into a hobby shop of hundreds of model aircraft, and you say "Eh, well they all look similar to me, just a bunch of planes". Tell that to the craftsmen.  rotfl 

And, this isn't about being anti-foreign, or whatever, which is a totally outrageous and ridiculous argument to begin with. There are hundreds of frames made by countless manufacturers that people have seen countless times, all of variating origin and made by several foreign manufacturers around the world - and never once does it enter peoples minds that "xxxxx plane looks like that one xxxxxx plane". Look at all the private jets - show me some that look comparable. Have a look at the falcons, versus lears, beech's - they all have a unique, ORIGINAL, design. Boeing has a unique, original design, as does Airbus. Antonov has countless original designs also. Embraer's look like no other aircraft. Airbus looks like no other aircraft. Lears, Falcons, Beechs, look like no other aircraft. Fokker, Fairchilds look like no other aircraft. Bombardier's aircraft look like no other aircraft. Boeings, Antonovs, look like no other aircraft. ATR, Saabs, you name it - all look like their companies started from scratch, and designed an aircraft from pen and paper up.

I look at the new Sukhoi super jet and it never crosses my mind "wow, looks like a xxxx wing, xxxx tail, xxxxx kind of nose, xxxxx kind of fuselage". The commonality doesnt exist because there isnt any commonality (or copying). Its a totally original design, from scratch, by Sukhoi, kudos to them, and it looks damn good, too. The aircraft bears no obvious resemblance to any other aircraft.

However, I look at this plane, and I can nit pick with detail what designs they clearly chose/were looking at, or copied - its plain as day - if you cant see it, then either you have a lack for detail, or, you havent viewed enough aircraft in your time.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Acjflyer
Posted 2008-11-28 22:28:49 and read 8859 times.

I think the jet is absolutely beautiful. I think it's great that someone is manufacturing another T-tail with great performance and the ability to meet the needs of certain markets. Even if it has numerous similarites to the MD family that shouldn't matter. Seems like smart business to me - build on a successful model and making improvements while saving costs sound like someone finally understands business.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: WPIAeroGuy
Posted 2008-11-28 22:43:13 and read 8804 times.

From what I can tell from a couple different 3-views, the only thing the ARJ21 has in common with the CRJ wing is the overall shape, however the ARJ has a higher aspect ratio. The spoilers are in different locations, and the flaps and ailerons are different sizes. According to Wikipedia again, the wing was designed by Antonov, so its not a copy of something else unless there is some serious industrial espionage going on. Antonov is a well established and renowned aircraft maker, I don't think they'd need to copy Bombardier's wing.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Boeingluvr
Posted 2008-11-29 00:39:58 and read 8359 times.

I was gonna say it's a nice 717/DC9 cross with an RJ haha... Not a bad looking A/C but the chinese have a while to go before the compete with Boeing/Airbus. Any ideas or concepts into their wide body commercial/cargo aircraft?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-11-29 05:46:06 and read 7753 times.



Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 32):

"Consequently, it bears a strong resemblance to the DC-9 series of aircraft, with an identical cabin cross section, nose profile and tail."

The DC-9 has a double-lobe fuselage. This one doesn't appear to.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: JetJeanes
Posted 2008-11-29 06:06:03 and read 7706 times.

The were manufactureing Mad dogs for Md for years and buit this one on the same priciple and design as the american dc-9 with some minor changes which seem to be for the better.
In fact they actually manufactuactured one whole complete version of the mad dog
was it something like the md 85 ??

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2008-11-29 06:24:33 and read 7669 times.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 14):
Flyf15, none, they´re not involved in this project

Well, in the sense that the Chinese practically copied major sections of MD airframes to make this thing, I would hope that Boeing is getting something out of the deal....

Well, you can hope, like Airbus hoping to get any money from Boeing for the DC-9 having the same engine configuration as the Caravelle.
20 maddogs I think was assembled by the Chinese, 5 of them flying in the US?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: R2rho
Posted 2008-11-29 06:50:18 and read 7617 times.

A lot of bashing and prejudice here - and I was expecting no less than that in a thread about a Chinese aircraft. You've gotta be fair though, and see this aircraft as what it is rather than making unfair comparisons.

This aircraft indeed does not offer anything technologically new with respect to the existing EMB & BBD, but it doesn't offer much less either. The ARJ-21 is, above all, a learning experience for the Chinese industry; their first serious modern aircraft project with some export potential. This plane is not meant to drive EMB & BBD out of the market or have strong sales in Western countries, which is what many of you fail to see. It is a first step towards larger and more ambitious goals that are well known by all. If it manages to sell a few hundred, it will already have been a success. The Chinese domestic market alone could ensure that, but there is also large potential to sell planes elsewhere in Asia, or Africa - a continent ignored by the West and where China has become the number one investor. The fact that GECAS has ordered 5+20 means that they give it at least some credibility.

The 2x3 cross section is a proven design that is currently ignored by Western manufacturers, and it leaves a lot of room for stretches. The unusually high aspect ratio wing is certainly interesting. And the ARJ-21 has Western suppliers like Honeywell, Rockwell Collins and GE on board, and will surely sell for an attractive price which could help compensate its lack of a global support network.

Underestimating the potential of the Chinese is a big strategic mistake, and those who fail to see that will regret it. We have seen them perform a spacewalk just a few weeks ago; rest assured that we will see them competing against A&B one day too.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2008-11-29 06:55:06 and read 7600 times.

I doubt that China will compete head on with A&B, they rely too much being a subcontractor and assembler (A320) to do that.
The ARJ-21 could sell, when it got a proven trackrecord, when the used airlines in large numbers (early B737, Maddogs and Tu-154 are retired).'

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2008-11-29 09:13:48 and read 7485 times.



Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 34):
If you have the tooling legally why not use it?

The legality is in question. Those jigs were used to license produce MD-80's. I'm not aware of any fees being paid to Boeing for the intellectual property rights.  no 

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 42):
If the ARJ21 gets FAA/JAA certificates, will it win competitions where it is pitched against CRJ-900/1000 and E-190?

Against the E-170/190? Unlikely. Do not forget the MRJ and C-series.

It has a tough road to go down to win export orders.

However, I am hearing rumors that the Russian designed wing is exceeding expectations. Great aerodynamics can forgive quite a few sins (a la A380 where aerodynamics more than compensated for the extra weight on long haul missions. Now for airbus to get out the weight for mid haul missions).

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 42):
It looks like it might be a bit heavier to carry a similar number of passengers as the well established types.

That is why I do not like the ARJ. Weight. Its worth $500 per kg to get non-value added weight out of an airframe. We work like the devil to get out ounces as they add up. It has multiple features that are 15+ years out of date that add thousands of pounds more than the competition.

What does the ARJ have? Short field performance. But wait... the MRJ and E-170 also have great short field performance. Due to the use of an 'old school' engine, it has no characteristic to stand out versus the existing models.

Its not prejudice if you're evaluating the product by a customer viewpoint.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 53):
The ARJ-21 is, above all, a learning experience for the Chinese industry

 checkmark  Due to the captive market they will learn. I agree with not under-estimating the Chinese. However, will they really supply 'world class' part service? I think they'll learn as much as their willing to listen. But with mandated purchases... there isn't the incentive to keep the customer happy. Thus they only learn half of what they need to for competing in the global marketplace.

What I find interesting is the Chinese are *not* learning about CFRP.  scratchchin 

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: TDubJFK
Posted 2008-11-29 11:30:50 and read 7293 times.

Its a cutie. Actually looks like a little BAC 1-11 mixed in there too.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Luv2cattlecall
Posted 2008-11-29 14:26:07 and read 7164 times.



Quoting LH526 (Reply 25):
If it is build with the same quality, details and care and meets the same durability standards as their Chinese car counterparts, the western regional Jet industry won't have anything to fear over the next decade!

So....fully comparable but much cheaper?

BMW, Buick, etc build vehicles in China...and Chevy with their so called "American Revolution" is building some engines in China...

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Larshjort
Posted 2008-11-29 14:53:08 and read 7127 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 44):
The ARJ-21 could sell, when it got a proven trackrecord, when the used airlines in large numbers (early B737, Maddogs and Tu-154 are retired).'

Why would any airline replace a 120< seat aircraft with a 70 seater?

/Lars

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: ERJ135
Posted 2008-11-29 17:34:54 and read 6975 times.



Quoting Larshjort (Reply 48):
Why would any airline replace a 120< seat aircraft with a 70 seater?

Possibly to increase frequency at the expence of capacity. For example an airline offers 7 round trips daily with their newly aquired E175s replacing the two previous round trips served with the old 757.

I'm not saying anyone will but the practise is common enough in the USA with airlines preferrig frequency using smaller aircraft and in many cases handing routes over to express carriers.

I think the ARJ21 is a very interesting development given that MD provided everything the Chinese needed to produce MD-90's for the local market. With MD having been removed from competition and all MD aircraft promptly ceasing production. China has been able to upgrade the airframe to new levels and sell the thing to the value of over 200 units. Compared to Boeings 717 the Chinese seem to be doing well so far. Of course the aircraft is not in service yet so we will have to wait and see.

It's early days but are we witnessing the begining of a Chinese avaiation industry to rival Boeing or Airbus or overtake both?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-11-29 19:45:16 and read 6890 times.



Quoting TDubJFK (Reply 46):
Its a cutie. Actually looks like a little BAC 1-11 mixed in there too.

 banghead 

It's a rear-mounted narrow-body twin RJ! Just like any other! Just because it's Chinese doesn't make it a total copy! And there's a lot more to a plane than the skin. Who here knows about its systems layout?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: 777way
Posted 2008-11-30 10:13:21 and read 6594 times.

Is It a wide body of RJ's?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Flyf15
Posted 2008-11-30 10:39:44 and read 6649 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 50):

It's a rear-mounted narrow-body twin RJ! Just like any other! Just because it's Chinese doesn't make it a total copy! And there's a lot more to a plane than the skin. Who here knows about its systems layout?

As its been said before, nobody is saying its copied because its Chinese. Everyone is saying it is copied because... it is. Substantial sections of the airframe are direct copies from the MD-80 series and are even being built using the same equipment.

As can be seen, it has an MD-80/DC-9 fuselage/nose/tail with few modifications.



And you can't really congratulate them on "taking something and making it better" when they apparently don't have the rights to take it in the first place. I would say this goes a little beyond the original intention of license building a specified number of aircraft in the 1990s.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: 777way
Posted 2008-11-30 10:58:32 and read 6585 times.



Quoting Ryu2 (Thread starter):
Pictures and more details articles for those who read Chinese:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2008...3.htm

Side shot.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2008-11-30 12:02:39 and read 6469 times.



Quoting 777way (Reply 53):
Side shot

ugh... the MD-90's screwdriver tail cone!  hissyfit 

Also, that wing leading edge lift device is... interesting. Is the main actuator in the aircraft body?

If they're going to copy MD, what's the screwjack inspection interval?  duck 

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: TommyBP251b
Posted 2008-11-30 23:23:25 and read 6180 times.



Quoting Phileet92 (Reply 20):
Yea! anyone notice the 777 style tail cone?

Thought the same!  Smile

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 54):
ugh... the MD-90's screwdriver tail cone!

So which one is the real one?

Regards Tom

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-12-01 00:30:08 and read 6129 times.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 52):

As its been said before, nobody is saying its copied because its Chinese. Everyone is saying it is copied because... it is. Substantial sections of the airframe are direct copies from the MD-80 series and are even being built using the same equipment.

So far I see a similar-looking nose, a similar-looking tail, a fuselage that has no hint of the double-bubble layout of the DC-9, a wing that looks completely different, wing root looks different, too.

The vertical tailplane has an odd-looking section, probably for trim, that doesn't appear on the DC-9.

Yeah, they definitely took bits of the DC-9 design. It was an excellent design and it's no longer in use by any other company.

But as has been pointed out, there are only a limited number of ways you can assemble an airliner.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: FX1816
Posted 2008-12-01 01:13:46 and read 6100 times.



Quoting Warszawa (Reply 36):
Fuselage appears nearly identical to Fokker 70, DC-9/717 nose, hard to see the tail but totally looks like an MD-90/717 tail, wings look totally like the CR7/9.

Some planes just look like total copouts, or half copied in some way. This looks like a total copout of variating Euro/Canadian/American designs.

You'll have these people on this board, "why cant you support someone trying to enter the market? planes all look similar, you know" - NO, planes do not "all look about similar" to eachother, unless you have a very, very poor eye for detail of aircraft. Kind of like walking into a hobby shop of hundreds of model aircraft, and you say "Eh, well they all look similar to me, just a bunch of planes". Tell that to the craftsmen.

And, this isn't about being anti-foreign, or whatever, which is a totally outrageous and ridiculous argument to begin with. There are hundreds of frames made by countless manufacturers that people have seen countless times, all of variating origin and made by several foreign manufacturers around the world - and never once does it enter peoples minds that "xxxxx plane looks like that one xxxxxx plane". Look at all the private jets - show me some that look comparable. Have a look at the falcons, versus lears, beech's - they all have a unique, ORIGINAL, design. Boeing has a unique, original design, as does Airbus. Antonov has countless original designs also. Embraer's look like no other aircraft. Airbus looks like no other aircraft. Lears, Falcons, Beechs, look like no other aircraft. Fokker, Fairchilds look like no other aircraft. Bombardier's aircraft look like no other aircraft. Boeings, Antonovs, look like no other aircraft. ATR, Saabs, you name it - all look like their companies started from scratch, and designed an aircraft from pen and paper up.

I look at the new Sukhoi super jet and it never crosses my mind "wow, looks like a xxxx wing, xxxx tail, xxxxx kind of nose, xxxxx kind of fuselage". The commonality doesnt exist because there isnt any commonality (or copying). Its a totally original design, from scratch, by Sukhoi, kudos to them, and it looks damn good, too. The aircraft bears no obvious resemblance to any other aircraft.

However, I look at this plane, and I can nit pick with detail what designs they clearly chose/were looking at, or copied - its plain as day - if you cant see it, then either you have a lack for detail, or, you havent viewed enough aircraft in your time.

You called this one right, this plane is a copy and I also do not know how anyone can't see that there are more than just a few parts that are copied, it really looks like they just re engined a 717 and put winglets on it.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 55):
Quoting Phileet92 (Reply 20):
Yea! anyone notice the 777 style tail cone?

Thought the same!

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 54):
ugh... the MD-90's screwdriver tail cone!

So which one is the real one?

Regards Tom

I don't know where the idea that it is a 777 tail cone when not only the MD-90 but many MD-80's and all of the 717's have the same tail cone. Besides it is not there just for looks I guess that kind of tail cone has an aerodynamic advantage over the old style on the DC-9 and early MD-80's.

FX1816

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Dtw9
Posted 2008-12-01 08:14:46 and read 5832 times.

Looking at the pictures posted ,does anybody notice anything strange about this aircraft. There are no over wing emergency exits. The exits on either side in the rear are right in front of the engines. Ought to be real nice trying to get out of this baby after a crash if the engines are on fire.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Columba
Posted 2008-12-01 08:39:49 and read 5790 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
it looks nothing like a DC-9 variant

The nose section is almost identical to the Dc 9, MD 80, MD 90, 717......

The aircraft would have looked better if the engines would not be so stubby, a bit longer would have been better

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Eightball
Posted 2008-12-01 09:55:48 and read 5686 times.

While it's nice to see that the Chinese are finally going to enter the commercial aircraft market, I just think that it would have been a lot more positive for the Chinese's image to the rest of the world if they came up with an aircraft that is %100 designed from scratch.

Some people here say that it looks nothing like a DC-9. Well, I have flown several times on DC-9 family aircraft, namely NW DC-9's, TW MD-80's, and SV MD-90's, and when I look at that side shot of the ARJ, I could tell straight away that it's a copy of the DC-9 design. There could be some difference in the fuselage and nose of the Chinese aircraft, but the Chinese have clearly taken copying to the next level by copying the design of a commercial airliner.

I have nothing against the Chinese, but they truly should have come up with an original design not only to boost there image to the world, but also in order to have their own trademark design in terms of how they build their aircraft. Sukhoi were brave enough to come up with their own design when they built the Superjet, and Embraer were brave enough to come up with their own design when they built the E-170. If they can do it, so can the Chinese.

Just my 2 cents.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: DavidkunzVIE
Posted 2008-12-01 10:26:12 and read 5663 times.



Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 39):
Any ideas or concepts into their wide body commercial/cargo aircraft?

An exclusive preview of the all new Chinese widebody jet!!!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wim Callaert

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2008-12-01 13:15:00 and read 5483 times.



Quoting Eightball (Reply 60):
I have nothing against the Chinese, but they truly should have come up with an original design not only to boost there image to the world, but also in order to have their own trademark design in terms of how they build their aircraft. Sukhoi were brave enough to come up with their own design when they built the Superjet, and Embraer were brave enough to come up with their own design when they built the E-170. If they can do it, so can the Chinese.

Yawn, yawn, yawn, yaw, YAWN! Change the record please! Ok, so it looks like a Mad Dog, we get it. Can we move on? Good luck to them I say. Underestimate the Chinese and their planes at your peril!

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Eightball
Posted 2008-12-01 13:52:00 and read 5398 times.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 62):
Yawn, yawn, yawn, yaw, YAWN! Change the record please! Ok, so it looks like a Mad Dog, we get it. Can we move on? Good luck to them I say. Underestimate the Chinese and their planes at your peril!

For what it's worth, I tried to give a message that is constructive and positive about the Chinese, so you shouldn't think that I'm trying to bash them.

With all the workforce and resources that they have, anybody who doubts that the Chinese are an industrial force to be reckoned with is simply being naive. I would whole-heartedly agree that, given time and experience, the Chinese could build wide-body jets that could rival the best aircraft from Boeing and Airbus. It's only a matter of time. I'm not sure about the quality or customer support that these jets will have, but they will definitely be a significant entry into the commercial aircraft market.

I just want to see the Chinese eventually make their own original aircraft designs, plain and simple.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2008-12-01 14:05:26 and read 5351 times.



Quoting Eightball (Reply 63):
so you shouldn't think that I'm trying to bash them.

I'm not saying you are trying to bash them, I'm simply saying that it would be nice if we could stop re-hashing the obvious.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Astral
Posted 2008-12-01 14:08:54 and read 5359 times.

The Chinese paid for all the jigs and tools from MD for the MD-80 assembly/coproduction back in the late 80s, as I was involved in the deal, I can confirm that to be sure. They owned the jigs and tools and they are free to do what ever they like with it.
As for the design of the ARJ21, it does follow the general layout of the MD90 (aka B717 now), but with totally different wing and tail forms designed by the Chinese. The fuselage is the only item that developed from the MD90, but too has substantial internal difference.
There are too many indigenous design it the ARJ21 that I wouldn't call it a 'copy', but again it does follows a product that is not designed in China.
The Chinese is taking a very carefully planed route to fulfill its own commercial aircraft design. The ARJ21 is step one, and it fits the 75-90 seat needs, especially for domestic China needs. The next upward move is the full RSP participation the Canadian C-Series, which would give the Chinese a much boarder involvement, especially in the 'production' part, of which the Chinese is very much in need of improvement. The C-Series also the fits the 90-110 seats (and range too) needs which so far has no comparable product in the market place (A318 too big, and CRJ900 lack of range).
As per my previous message concerning the Chinese 'Large Commercial Aircraft', the Chinese has officially confirmed (just as I posted), the LCA would be a 150-200 seat/10 hours flying time aircraft. It fits perfectly the void left by B757-200, of which the B737NG and A319 too small and short-leg for the commercial needs, while B767/A330 are too big. Conceptual shape design of the LCA has already 'surfaced' in Shanghai Aircraft Corp. internal document, but I can't lay my hand on them yet.
I think we should all wait to see the LCA, and perhaps you will then see a much better Chinese design.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2008-12-01 14:22:01 and read 5316 times.



Quoting Astral (Reply 65):
I think we should all wait to see the LCA, and perhaps you will then see a much better Chinese design.

I hope so. However, I fear that unless it has 12 engines, a tri-wing design and a triangular fuselage, then people will always accuse it of being a copy of one thing or another.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Art
Posted 2008-12-01 15:23:33 and read 5225 times.



Quoting Astral (Reply 65):
The Chinese paid for all the jigs and tools from MD for the MD-80 assembly/coproduction back in the late 80s, as I was involved in the deal, I can confirm that to be sure. They owned the jigs and tools and they are free to do what ever they like with it.

Interesting to hear that "from the horse's mouth". So the diatribes against using tools and jigs used in the MD-80 exercise are unwarranted.

Quoting Astral (Reply 65):
As per my previous message concerning the Chinese 'Large Commercial Aircraft', the Chinese has officially confirmed (just as I posted), the LCA would be a 150-200 seat/10 hours flying time aircraft. It fits perfectly the void left by B757-200, of which the B737NG and A319 too small and short-leg for the commercial needs, while B767/A330 are too big.

Sounds like a good idea - provide a supply to meet a demand that the big two have not addressed. Your product does not need to attain the standard A and B would have attained if they had chosen to address this market.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Flyf15
Posted 2008-12-01 15:44:45 and read 5200 times.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 66):
I hope so. However, I fear that unless it has 12 engines, a tri-wing design and a triangular fuselage, then people will always accuse it of being a copy of one thing or another.

Actually wouldn't that be a copy of one of those pre-war German designs?  Smile

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2008-12-01 15:48:50 and read 5188 times.



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 68):
Actually wouldn't that be a copy of one of those pre-war German designs? Smile

Sorry, I meant 13 engines.  Wink

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: CX flyboy
Posted 2008-12-01 15:55:23 and read 5168 times.



Quoting Eightball (Reply 63):
I just want to see the Chinese eventually make their own original aircraft designs, plain and simple.

..."eventually" is the right word....but they have to start somewhere right?

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Eightball
Posted 2008-12-01 17:19:28 and read 5097 times.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 64):
I'm not saying you are trying to bash them, I'm simply saying that it would be nice if we could stop re-hashing the obvious.

I'm just trying to state *why* they shouldn't copy someone else's design.

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 70):
"eventually" is the right word....but they have to start somewhere right?

Precisely. At some point in time, they have to come up with their own original design.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Alangirvan
Posted 2008-12-01 19:56:51 and read 5004 times.

Is a Chinese assembled airliner really different from a Chinese assembled laptop? If they can build a $98 laptop (big "if" on that one, but to be discussed in other forums), they can do an airliner. It has taken a long time from brochure till in the air, but it has happened. This aircraft is certainly an improvement on the copy of the 707. which was more of an experiment,

I have been asking whether this aircraft would win competitions against the well established aircraft in the same size. Building the first one is only the start. People would want to see how they would support the aircraft in service. Does it look like a plane that will chew through spare parts, and spend a lot if its time sitting on the ground being fixed? These are big questions whether they hope to sell the plane in China itself or to Africa, or to America, where airlines might have a requirement to fly a 90 seater on ten sectors a day on tight schedules. If they are going to fly this plane in high ground regions, then ability to use RNP is not a luxury.

If I use the laptop analogy, the cheap $98 laptop might appeal to people who go into the shop thinking they are about to buy a used computer, and find a new machine that has lots of features for a good price, even though it is not leading edge technology. I wonder if this plane might be priced to appeal to a start up airline that was thinking of using second hand planes.

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: Phoenix9
Posted 2008-12-01 20:34:58 and read 4958 times.

Did anyone check if any of the old MDs or 717s are missing? or missing parts? Next thing you know is that this RJ is assembled from old discarded/retired planes!!  stirthepot 


Jokes aside, congrats to chinese for thier first RJ! Wish them all the best  Smile

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: LH526
Posted 2008-12-02 01:38:31 and read 4812 times.



Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 72):
If I use the laptop analogy, the cheap $98 laptop might appeal to people who go into the shop thinking they are about to buy a used computer, and find a new machine that has lots of features for a good price, even though it is not leading edge technology. I wonder if this plane might be priced to appeal to a start up airline that was thinking of using second hand planes.

As my previous post got deleted for possible flamebait, let me try to repeat what tried to say:

Looking at this video:

... I just hope that chinese aviation engineers have a little more competency in regard to safety, integrity and durability than their automotive counterparts. I'm not saying that chinese aircraft technology is rubbish per se, quite the contrary: I'm sure with their Xian MA60 they maxed out what is technicaly and technologicaly possible with a 1950s russian airframe design .... let's hope they put the same quality in their DC-9 license-tool-copy-inspiration-assembly ... (whatever you call it) lookalike aircraft.

Mario
LH526

Topic: RE: Chinese Regional Jet Completes First Flight!
Username: DavidkunzVIE
Posted 2008-12-02 05:14:01 and read 4674 times.

^^ Just like the plane, your laptop was designed elsewhere.


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