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Topic: Air France To Canada
Username: Thenoflyzone
Posted 2008-11-20 12:46:45 and read 10100 times.

Quick question about AF ops in Canada.

AF currently serve YYZ daily and YUL double daily in winter and triple daily in summer. Here is my question:

How come YYZ gets A343 and B744 all year long, with a business and economy configuration (Business, premium economy (alize) and economy on B744), and YUL gets at least 1 B772 in summer and 1 B77W in winter, both of which have First class.

Isnt YYZ a bigger premium class market than YUL? How come AF doesn't send First class to YYZ?

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2008-11-20 12:47:34]

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-11-20 12:50:11 and read 10076 times.

just taking a guess, I think it might be the YYZ market is more tourists, whilst YUL with it's larger French population has buisness traffic to and from.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Flyyul
Posted 2008-11-20 12:51:52 and read 10076 times.

Simply because neither Montreal or Toronto are large premium markets.

Air France's planes are in a "volume " configuration unlike Lufthansa which puts 221 in an A330 (AC puts 265). AF still puts 280 on an A340 vs LH at 221.

Air France benefits from three things

1.) the Paris local market which greatly favors Montreal for obvious reasons
2.) The unique ODs offered beyond Paris, ALG/BEY/TUN/CMN are huge market sizes from montreal in which AF is the only to offer convenient day time connections to these places

3.) Low competition. Air Canada only has 5 daily non-stops to Montreal to the Atlantic vs over 20 from Toronto..

Just like KL is more dominant in YYZ than AF, its mostly about the attributes of the beyonds of the hubs and the qualitative aspect of the termination cities on both ends.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Runway23
Posted 2008-11-20 13:02:22 and read 10013 times.



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
How come YYZ gets A343 and B744 all year long, with a business and economy configuration (Business, premium economy (alize) and economy on B744), and YUL gets at least 1 B772 in summer and 1 B77W in winter, both of which have First class.

There isn't any "Alize" on those flights, it is the same tempo product albeit with PTVs and extra legroom. Seats can be reserved by full-fare customers, flying blue and skyteam elites. Alize is only available on COI (Caribbean Indian Ocean) routes from Orly.

YUL has strong ties to AF, because of language, the French community in Montreal and connecting options. Because of the connections, it actually makes First class somewhat warranted, although AF does have some trouble filling up YUL upfront when compared with other North American cities, the same can be applied to KLM who fly their MD-11s to YUL. KLM's MD11 fleet has the lowest count of WBC seats in their fleet.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Gr8circle
Posted 2008-11-20 16:28:37 and read 9638 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 1):
I think it might be the YYZ market is more tourists,

There is a huge S.Asian and S.E Asian population in Toronto....AF flies to a lot of cities in that part of the world and is popular with immigrants flying back and forth between Canada and countries like India.....

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: UPPERDECKFAN
Posted 2008-11-21 07:34:15 and read 9080 times.



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
Isnt YYZ a bigger premium class market than YUL? How come AF doesn't send First class to YYZ?

It's a matter of ties between Quebec and France, there are bussines and goverment ties on both sides that warrant large premium traffic on YUL-CDG for AF to send their hi-J 3-class 77W to YUL.

As a matter of fact YUL is planned to be the first or second (afer JFK) A380 station for AF.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-11-29 15:10:59 and read 8035 times.



Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 4):

There is a huge S.Asian and S.E Asian population in Toronto....AF flies to a lot of cities in that part of the world and is popular with immigrants flying back and forth between Canada and countries like India.....

Yes, but with flights from KE, CX, 9W, AI, PK and then AC, I find most of them go that way round. Plus we just had EK introduced with EY a while before that, so that seemed to be a popular asia connecter too.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2008-11-30 19:17:31 and read 7166 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 6):
Yes, but with flights from KE, CX, 9W, AI, PK and then AC, I find most of them go that way round. Plus we just had EK introduced with EY a while before that, so that seemed to be a popular asia connecter too.

Well, that may be....just pointing out that AF is one of the more popular choices for Indian origin people travelling from YYZ to India.....probably because they almost always offer very good fares....

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-01 07:18:29 and read 6899 times.



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 7):

Well, that may be....just pointing out that AF is one of the more popular choices for Indian origin people travelling from YYZ to India.....probably because they almost always offer very good fares....

Yes. They also tend to choose BA for that same reason as well.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2008-12-01 09:10:08 and read 6750 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 8):
Yes. They also tend to choose BA for that same reason as well.

Equally true.....BA, AF and LH are the prime choices among the European carriers providing flights to India from YYZ.....AZ also quite popular..... smile 

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-01 10:35:05 and read 6618 times.



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9):
Equally true.....BA, AF and LH are the prime choices among the European carriers providing flights to India from YYZ.....AZ also quite popular.....

How many other European carriers provide service to India from Toronto?

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Flyyul
Posted 2008-12-01 10:47:34 and read 6591 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 10):

One can find connections to India via LHR/FRA/MUC/ZRH with AC/Star

Austrian
KLM
Air France
British Airways
Aeroflot (very cheaply priced)
Lufthansa
JetAir / Air India

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-01 11:00:26 and read 6558 times.



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9):
Equally true.....BA, AF and LH are the prime choices among the European carriers providing flights to India from YYZ.....AZ also quite popular....

and I forgot EK too.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 10):

How many other European carriers provide service to India from Toronto?

well, I'm not sure if they service India, but we get MA, OK, AY (summer only), LY, OA, and KL is all I can think of right now

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-01 11:08:22 and read 6531 times.



Quoting Flyyul (Reply 11):
JetAir / Air India



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 12):
well, I'm not sure if they service India

Thanks guys. I was specifically referring to Euro carriers offering service between YYZ and India (with a reasonably-timed connection at their home hubs). The reason I asked is that there was a claim of four European airlines being "the prime choices" for travelers, and I thought it somewhat amusing as that would suggest a high proportion of the total numbers of carriers on the route - and how many more can there be?

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-01 11:14:45 and read 6515 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 13):

Thanks guys. I was specifically referring to Euro carriers offering service between YYZ and India (with a reasonably-timed connection at their home hubs). The reason I asked is that there was a claim of four European airlines being "the prime choices" for travelers, and I thought it somewhat amusing as that would suggest a high proportion of the total numbers of carriers on the route - and how many more can there be?

Through Europe yes, but I think most people connect through asia or go direct on AI, PK or 9W

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-01 11:21:23 and read 6505 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 14):
Through Europe yes, but I think most people connect through asia or go direct on AI, PK or 9W

I was only referring to European carriers, not Asian carriers that route via Europe or any carriers that fly over the Pacific. Does PK serve India from Toronto in a logical itinerary?

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-01 11:24:17 and read 6491 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 15):
I was only referring to European carriers, not Asian carriers that route via Europe or any carriers that fly over the Pacific. Does PK serve India from Toronto in a logical itinerary?

Yes, which is why I said through Europe. Referring to AI, PK and 9W was saying the route I find mostly taken (probably not PK, but I believe they have connections). Most of the traffic goes over the pacific if I'm not mistaken.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-01 11:30:57 and read 6476 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 16):
Most of the traffic goes over the pacific if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not sure, I wonder about that. Even from YVR, it seems to be there's equal numbers of people flying to India via Eurpoe vs Asia. It would be interesting to see which is actually more popular.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-01 11:45:35 and read 6445 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 17):
Even from YVR, it seems to be there's equal numbers of people flying to India via Eurpoe vs Asia. It would be interesting to see which is actually more popular.

I'd be very surprised because YVR has WAY more asia flights than YYZ. I would be very interested to see these results too!

I'm in High Level right now, so we don't really get any asian or european flights :P

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-01 11:56:36 and read 6409 times.

Quoting Heathrow (Reply 18):
I'd be very surprised because YVR has WAY more asia flights than YYZ.

Granted. My experience comes from working with dozens of Indians who flew home on a regular basis. Their choice of routing may have had something to do with price vs time en route, or for many, the presence of family in various European (read England) locations that they could visit on a stopover.

Playing around on Great Circle Mapper, and assuming a preferred one-stop service: from YYZ it is generally much more direct to travel via Europe (SVO being the shortest). From YVR it is shorter distance going through the Far East (ICN being the shortest). The intangibles that come into play are of course price, connection timings, appeal of a stopover and preference of airline.
Now let's get the thread back on track - I tend to hijack them far too often.

[Edited 2008-12-01 12:04:52]

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2008-12-01 12:03:39 and read 6389 times.



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5):
there are bussines and goverment ties on both sides that warrant large premium traffic on YUL-CDG for AF to send their hi-J 3-class 77W to YUL.

Well, YUL-CDG is so huge that despite the fact that it is not predominantly a high-yield market (2 744s per day in the summer is LOOOOOT of Y seats, undoubtedly), it remains some room for a F and J market. Compare YUL vs JFK, YUL gets 2-3 flights, no more than one with a high-yield aircraft, while JFK gets 5-6, all with (at least) a 343, but mostly 772 and 773 (and one 744 in the summer to accomodate the seasonal touristic overflow). YUL remains a low-yield destination, overall. But the J and F market is more constant than Y thoughout the year, therefore AF sends relatively more high-yield aircraft to YUL (77W + 343) in the winter than in the summer (2*744 + 772).
YYZ has only 1 flight simply because the France-Canada ties are centered on Montreal and not Toronto. YYZ is not so much a high-yield destination therefore it does not get the 777 from AF.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5):
As a matter of fact YUL is planned to be the first or second (afer JFK) A380 station for AF.

Are you sure of this? I thought YUL with A380 was not going to happen, finally.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2008-12-01 16:48:52 and read 6185 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 18):
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 17):
Even from YVR, it seems to be there's equal numbers of people flying to India via Eurpoe vs Asia. It would be interesting to see which is actually more popular.

I'd be very surprised because YVR has WAY more asia flights than YYZ. I would be very interested to see these results too!

Yes, more flights from YVR to Asia than to Europe, but you have to connect in Asia and in Europe to get to India, and I'm sure there is far more capacity from the major European gateways to India than from Asian hubs like NRT/ICN/HKG. That's likely to put downward pressure on fares via Europe, especially during off-peak times of the year. If Asian carriers can fill their limited capacity to India with higher-yield Asia-India O&D traffic, they're not going to dilute their yields by offering very low fares Canada-India.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: UN_B732
Posted 2008-12-01 16:50:04 and read 6179 times.

Aeroflot has gotta be really popular. I notice LOTS of Indian folks connecting through SVO to YYZ, JFK, and/or LAX/IAD everytime I'm at Moscow

-A

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-01 17:16:26 and read 6140 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
but you have to connect in Asia and in Europe to get to India,

Yes, that's well understood, thank you.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 22):
Aeroflot has gotta be really popular. I notice LOTS of Indian folks connecting through SVO

Probably a combination of low prices (I assume) and the fact that Moscow is the closest connecting city to the great circle route between eastern NA and India.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-01 23:19:26 and read 6004 times.

does SU fly to YVR?


Also, would people heading that way possibly connect a double connect on say NW or UA (to other star partners)

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Ktachiya
Posted 2008-12-02 01:31:38 and read 5925 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 24):
does SU fly to YVR?

I think he was talking about Aeroflot serving YYZ.

Quoting Heathrow (Reply 24):
would people heading that way possibly connect a double connect on say NW or UA

I doubt it. Why go from their original country to the United States (not Canada's favorite country to travel to) and then clear customs there, and then head over to the far east, take another check and go onto India?

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-02 10:04:13 and read 5889 times.



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 25):

I think he was talking about Aeroflot serving YYZ.

I'm aware, It was an independant question.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 25):

I doubt it. Why go from their original country to the United States (not Canada's favorite country to travel to) and then clear customs there, and then head over to the far east, take another check and go onto India?

Whenever I go to PER, I have to go LAX and then either SYD, AKL or BNE. I was wondering if the price outweighs the inconvenience.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-02 14:22:37 and read 5733 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 24):
does SU fly to YVR?

No, it does not.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 25):
Why go from their original country to the United States (not Canada's favorite country to travel to)

If it makes sense from a timing and price perspective then most Canadians wouldn't hesitate to transit through the US. The anti-US sentiment is largely hot air, although we have as a nation taken exception to their politics over the past 8 or so years. But we realize the deep connections we share with each other, and as a result, usually do not think twice about using one of their cities as a connection point. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

Quoting Heathrow (Reply 26):

Whenever I go to PER, I have to go LAX and then either SYD, AKL or BNE.

Is that because the options of traveling nonstop to SYD or via the Far East do not appeal?

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-03 18:23:47 and read 5392 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 27):
Is that because the options of traveling nonstop to SYD or via the Far East do not appeal?

Non-stop to SYD just started with AC, but I like to avoid AC at all cost. QF is usually my best / cheapest option once you rule out AC, or I have to go the long way around with BA (still connecting in SYD)

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-03 18:34:37 and read 5381 times.

The YVR-SYD non-stop has been available for a year now, but I understand your aversion to AC. Qantas is a great option via LAX /SFO but often you can get a great deal with NZ from YVR. That, or any option through Japan, Korea or Singapore would certainly beat the 'long way round' on BA.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2008-12-04 12:26:34 and read 5044 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 29):
The YVR-SYD non-stop has been available for a year now, but I understand your aversion to AC. Qantas is a great option via LAX /SFO but often you can get a great deal with NZ from YVR. That, or any option through Japan, Korea or Singapore would certainly beat the 'long way round' on BA.

I'm usually in YQU, YYZ or YOW, so YVR is still a connection for me. I thought NZ had codeshare with AC out of YVR. I would deffinately opt for CX or KE ou of YYZ though. My uncle works for BA, so we get special deals sometimes.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-04 12:58:07 and read 5001 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 30):
I thought NZ had codeshare with AC out of YVR.

They do, and it's NZ metal only unless connecting through the US. NZ operates a nonstop flight YVR-AKL, introduced in Nov 2007.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Aircellist
Posted 2008-12-04 14:29:25 and read 4935 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 24):
does SU fly to YVR?



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 28):
Non-stop to SYD just started with AC, but I like to avoid AC at all cost. QF is usually my best / cheapest option once you rule out AC, or I have to go the long way around with BA (still connecting in SYD)



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 30):
I'm usually in YQU, YYZ or YOW, so YVR is still a connection for me. I thought NZ had codeshare with AC out of YVR. I would deffinately opt for CX or KE ou of YYZ though. My uncle works for BA, so we get special deals sometimes.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 31):
They do, and it's NZ metal only unless connecting through the US. NZ operates a nonstop flight YVR-AKL, introduced in Nov 2007.

Mods, I think this thread is straying far away from its title... The interesting question could have been: how come that, say, LH can have flights to more cities in Canada than AF, or BA? But, now... where are we going?

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2008-12-05 10:40:09 and read 4704 times.



Quoting Aircellist (Reply 32):
Mods, I think this thread is straying far away from its title... But, now... where are we going?

Apologies to you sir, I didn't realize we had logged on to Aircellist.net, where we may pose or answer any question, as long as you approve of it.

I can't think of a single thread on this (or any other) forum where the theme of the discussion doesn't meander from the original title. It's inevitable when two or more people engage in conversation, and it's part of what makes this site so rich and informative to those of us who choose to listen to all sorts of opinions and are not afraid to ask a question. This or any other forum site would wither and die if moderators abused their powers to censor.

In hopes of this post remaining available, I will ask if there are any likely future improvements to the Canada-France bilateral treaty that will allow Air France to serve YVR (assuming that's the impediment to such service and that the market will support such a route) either in conjunction with or independent from onward service to PPT.

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Okees
Posted 2008-12-05 17:42:06 and read 4483 times.



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
Are you sure of this? I thought YUL with A380 was not going to happen, finally.

Thats what i thought too, I remember when AF and Airbus flew the A380 to YUL for the first time, AF announced that the A380 will not be coming to YUL, at least for now.

I guess the only way to find out is when AF get their first A380.. which is.... when exactly?

okees

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: LH423
Posted 2008-12-05 23:42:57 and read 4336 times.



Quoting Okees (Reply 34):
Thats what i thought too, I remember when AF and Airbus flew the A380 to YUL for the first time, AF announced that the A380 will not be coming to YUL, at least for now.

They're getting their first A380 in the next year (2009Q4) according to another thread. However, someone there said they heard from AF management that JFK, IAD, and...wait for it...YYZ will be the first three destinations.

I personally think someone somewhere is getting the info mixed up since YYZ makes absolutely no sense but stranger things have happened so we'll have to wait and see. But I do recall AF saying that YUL may be served initially since it's a shorter route with less of a layover so pilots can get more rotations in during the period of familiarization before redeploying the plane on longer routes like NRT.

As the October 2009 period approaches and AF can be more certain that there won't be any delays on the delivery, we'll probably see the schedules released and further cities announced as aircraft arrive. I except, given the one aircraft, that JFK will be seeing service first as you can operate a return trip with one aircraft.

LH423

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: Aircellist
Posted 2008-12-06 12:49:53 and read 4158 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 33):
Apologies to you sir, I didn't realize we had logged on to Aircellist.net, where we may pose or answer any question, as long as you approve of it.

ahem... Did I exagerate?

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 33):
In hopes of this post remaining available, I will ask if there are any likely future improvements to the Canada-France bilateral treaty that will allow Air France to serve YVR (assuming that's the impediment to such service and that the market will support such a route) either in conjunction with or independent from onward service to PPT.

That's it  Smile

Topic: RE: Air France To Canada
Username: EXAAUADL
Posted 2008-12-07 07:32:31 and read 3918 times.

BACK IN THE dAY, AF use to fly ORY-YUL-ORD with a 747-100


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