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Topic: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2008-12-24 11:07:30 and read 8189 times.

So here is the deal. My best friend went over to see his girl friend in SEA yesterday. He flew on LH 436 from DUS to ORD to connect to UA 949.
He boarded the plan on time, then sat in it for THREE HOURS and after that it was cancelled due to UA's failure to de-ice the plane. To make matters worse, UA did NOT provide accomodation to him or any other (Y) passenger for the night. He was lucky enough to get on the early flight to SEA today. On UA's website cx due to wx. Hardly. What a joke.
The later flight to SEA left without any troubles making me think that this is clearly UA's fault because they are incapable. What actions should be taken?
Flights were booked through LH...

Thanks a lot.

The problem is that he is a lot nicer than I am. I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2008-12-24 11:13:37 and read 8169 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
What actions should be taken?

A lawsuit for breach of contract and possibly criminal charges for corporate fraud.

If it can be demonstrated that the airline lied and blamed the cancellation on WX when it was actually due to another factor, and then the airline used that as a reason to not provide contractually obligated accommodations, that is breach of contract and fraud.

Now, whether you are willing to engage an attorney and go after UA is another question. But this is a big pet peeve of mine. I once had a delay blamed on WX on AA. Now what "WX" only affects one flight, causes them to open the #2 engine, stand around looking puzzled at it, and then switch equipment from a 767 to a 757?

But the official cause of the delay was WX.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2008-12-24 11:17:39 and read 8143 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):

A lawsuit for breach of contract and possibly criminal charges for corporate fraud.

If it can be demonstrated that the airline lied and blamed the cancellation on WX when it was actually due to another factor, and then the airline used that as a reason to not provide contractually obligated accommodations, that is breach of contract and fraud.

Sounds more like them having 2-3" of snow yesterday, along with high winds at times, and more than just his flight to deice. Doubtful that you get farther than nothing for his effort. Not all flights are sent because of a number of factors in an already bad weather week...

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: United1
Posted 2008-12-24 11:23:40 and read 8108 times.

Something like 500 flights were canceld out of ORD tuesday along with another 100 so far today....WX at ORD was to blame.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081224/ap_on_re_us/winter_weather

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2008-12-24 11:26:53 and read 8084 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
To make matters worse, UA did NOT provide accomodation to him or any other (Y) passenger for the night.

Why would they? You've been around this board long enough to know this tactic doesn't work here. It's been hell the last week in Southern Wisconsin and Northern Illinois, much less the rest of the country. Not to mention the huge snow totals Seattle just got. There is an exception for WEATHER in the Contract of Carriage that would keep the airline from being liable for a room and any other charges you want to concoct...

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: 777STL
Posted 2008-12-24 11:27:56 and read 8085 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
The problem is that he is a lot nicer than I am. I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.

Yes, well the problem here in the US, is that we don't have a passenger bill of rights, therefore they would probably laugh at you if you demanded as such - unless you're an elite and then maybe they may not laugh as hard. US airlines aren't obligated to give you anything in the event of a weather delay, and most of them won't.

You do realize that ORD got six inches of snow yesterday, don't you? How is that "hardly" a weather delay?

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: United1
Posted 2008-12-24 11:32:54 and read 8057 times.



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 4):
Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
To make matters worse, UA did NOT provide accomodation to him or any other (Y) passenger for the night.

Why would they? You've been around this board long enough to know this tactic doesn't work here.

Exactly.... United is not, or any US airline for that matter, going to put up Y class passengers overnight due to weather cancellations. UA will if you are traveling F or J but the best your going to get in Y is a voucher good for a discount at one of the hotels surrounding ORD.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: ChiGB1973
Posted 2008-12-24 11:32:21 and read 8058 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
The problem is that he is a lot nicer than I am. I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.

The airline owes your friend nothing. Pay attention to travel conditions before you leave home. This did not happen overnight. Planning. He did not do it and is blaming the airline.

I'm sure there are hundreds more people at ORD that were not as nice as him, yet still slept on that floor.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081224/ap_on_re_us/winter_weather

Even if you were not nice, you did not deserve compensation nor does your friend. Suck it up, travel in these conditions, pay the price.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
A lawsuit for breach of contract and possibly criminal charges for corporate fraud.

And, of course someone jumps on the bandwagon. While your case may be different, this is obviously weather. It's takes about 2 seconds of watching the news.

M

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Steex
Posted 2008-12-24 11:35:43 and read 8045 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.

This last statement really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You're saying that you would take it to UA especially because they were able to send out other flights. So are you suggesting that weather cancellations have to be an all-or-nothing decision or you won't believe the airline? As you surely know, weather results in greatly reduced airport capacity, but doesn't necessarily reduce it to zero. The airlines usually do everything they can to get every flight they can in the air, but winter weather in particular is going to result in a lot of cancellations.

Being in the Chicago area yesterday, I can assure you any claims to weather disruptions at ORD (or MDW) were legitimate. It is certainly frustrating for your friend to have suffered a cancellation in that manner, but the fact that UA was trying to get the flight off before making the decision to cancel doesn't mean that weather was not the underlying cause.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2008-12-24 11:42:29 and read 8013 times.

11 FAA advisories from the FAA for ORD on 23Dec....4 of them Ground Stops...all due weather. Temps ranged from 7 to 35F... 0.27 of frozen precip....wind gusts 25-30 kts....visibilities down as low as 0.2 miles for several hours.

Apparently the original poster knows far better about conditions at ORD than the FAA and the National Weather Service and wants to sue.

 banghead   banghead   banghead 

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
The later flight to SEA left without any troubles

Really...3 hrs late is without any problems?


 footinmouth 

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2008-12-24 11:51:11 and read 7969 times.



Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9):

Really...3 hrs late is without any problems?


footinmouth

Go on UA's website. It at least left...

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Steex
Posted 2008-12-24 11:54:31 and read 7945 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 10):

Go on UA's website. It at least left...

This proves nothing, though. Though cancellations were massive, a relative few lucky flights made it out. Given that SEA is an important destination for UA, I'm sure they were trying not to cancel the ORD-SEA flights, I'm sure plenty of other destinations saw cancellations across the board. Your friend just happened to be on one of the flights that didn't make it out; that makes it no less the fault of weather.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: TheGreatChecko
Posted 2008-12-24 11:55:55 and read 7945 times.

Really, sue the airline? Comon, Doc you're smarter than that. This is Chicago, in the middle of winter.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):

If it can be demonstrated that the airline lied and blamed the cancellation on WX when it was actually due to another factor, and then the airline used that as a reason to not provide contractually obligated accommodations, that is breach of contract and fraud.

Alright, judging by the departure time, I found quite the ground delay program in effect for ORD at about the departure time of your friends flight. The weather obviously was pretty messy with aircraft piling up on the ground possibly waiting to get deiced.

Note: Delay times are in minutes.

At 526 lcl:

ATCSCC ADVZY 063 ORD/ZAU 12/23/2008 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM

MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: ORD
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 2327Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 23/2327Z - 24/0459Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 23/1300Z - 24/0459Z
PROGRAM RATE: 58
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: (MANUAL) ZAB ZSE ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZOA ZLC ZLA ZAU ZMP ZDV
ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY
ADDITIONAL DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED:
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZAU
MAXIMUM DELAY: 807
AVERAGE DELAY: 214
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / SNOW-ICE
COMMENTS: WEST OPS. PRGM REVISED. PLEASE RLS ACFT ON RVSD EDCT'S.

EFFECTIVE TIME:
232328 - 240559

About two hours later, 718 lcl, ORD and MDW went on a ground stop.

ATCSCC ADVZY 010 ORD/ZAU 12/24/2008 CDM GROUND STOP

MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: ORD
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0218Z
GROUND STOP PERIOD: 24/0203Z - 24/0330Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 23/1300Z - 24/0459Z
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: (2NDTIER+CZY_AP) ZAB ZFW ZKC ZME ZTL ZLC
ZAU
ZMP ZDV ZID ZBW ZOB ZDC ZNY CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ
PREVIOUS TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 9851 / 475 / 179
NEW TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 13777 / 517 / 250
PROBABILITY OF EXTENSION: MEDIUM
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / SNOW-ICE
COMMENTS: ORD BRAP

EFFECTIVE TIME:
240220 - 240430

Which was later canceled about an hour later, at 828 lcl:

ATCSCC ADVZY 016 ORD/ZAU 12/24/2008 GROUND STOP CANCELLATION

RAW TEXT:
ATCSCC ADVZY 016 ORD/ZAU 12/24/08 GROUND STOP CANCELLATION
DESTINATION AIRPORT: ORD
RELEASED FACILITIES: ALL
REMARKS: THE GROUND DELAY PROGRAM IS STILL AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN EFFECT BUT WILL NOT BE
REVISED AT THIS TIME.
240328-240459
08/12/24 03:28

The GDP was cancelled twenty minutes after that, at 848 lcl:

ATCSCC ADVZY 019 ORD/ZAU 12/24/2008 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM CNX
CTL ELEMENT: ORD
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0348Z
GDP CNX PERIOD: 24/0348Z - 24/2333Z
DISREGARD EDCTS FOR DEST ORD
COMMENTS:
240351-250033
08/12/24 03:53

Obviously, these are arrival delays. However, are a reflection of the conditions on the ground, especially in ORD.

Furthermore, for the crew to legally depart, they need to realistically be able to reach Seattle before reaching their maximum duty day, including the contractual post flight duty time. United shows the flight to be 4 hours and 35 minutes. So if they are still in the deice line at 11 hours of duty, the crew would be pushing their maximum duty of 16 hours.

It is doubtful that UA had a full fresh crew waiting on the ground in ORD to swap out and try again. Especially at a large airline like UA, it's just easier to cancel a flight and accommodate passengers than to continue burning fuel for what could be a futile effort.

Arguing which caused the cancellation, crew duty issues or weather, is like arguing whether the chicken or the egg came first. One did lead to the other and right or wrong, UA is going to blame it on the weather.

This definitely was not a mechanical delay.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
The problem is that he is a lot nicer than I am. I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.

With what? It was obviously snowing and deicing operations were in effect. At this point you would have needed the agent's help to reach your destination. Yelling at them for something outside of their control and "demanding compensation" would have gotten you no where.

Furthermore, the fact they sent out a flight the same day has no bearing on the situation. To me it seems that weather probably did cause the cancellation and, as I'm sure you are aware, weather changes throughout the day and that is compounded by airport arrival and departure rates and the deice rate for the airport.

While it was a major inconvenience, the airline did get your friend to his destination the next morning.

This is also why I avoid flying through Chicago or any NE hub in the winter unless I absolutely have to because the chances of something like this occurring is very high.

Checko

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: United1
Posted 2008-12-24 12:03:17 and read 7901 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 10):
Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9):

Really...3 hrs late is without any problems?


footinmouth

Go on UA's website. It at least left...

3+ hours late at 2322 arriving into SEA at 0214....sorry but your friends flight was canceled due to weather. I realize that the ability exists for the airlines to abuse the system and say a flight was canceled to due to weather to avoid paying compensation but in this case there is absolutely no doubt that the flight was canceled due to a snow/wind storm moving through ORD. UA was not able to operate the flight safely due to the weather conditions therefore it (along with 500 others) was canceled, I would suggest complaining to mother nature.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2008-12-24 12:02:43 and read 7901 times.



Quoting Steex (Reply 11):

This is also why I avoid flying through Chicago or any NE hub in the winter unless I absolutely have to because the chances of something like this occurring is very high.

That is what I have been telling him for ages. Hopefully he will finally listen.  Wink

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2008-12-24 12:07:30 and read 7882 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
A lawsuit for breach of contract and possibly criminal charges for corporate fraud.

this isn't the EU.... we are a little more realistic about what we expect over here. And we also don't punish companies for acts of nature.

the upper midwest has been pounded by bad weather for a week. the real question will be the effect on airline income statements.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: DL Widget Head
Posted 2008-12-24 12:11:35 and read 7863 times.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
He boarded the plan on time, then sat in it for THREE HOURS and after that it was cancelled due to UA's failure to de-ice the plane.

So, if weather were not an issue, then the flight would have left without a hitch. In the end, weather was the root cause for this delay/cancellation.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
UA did NOT provide accomodation to him or any other (Y) passenger for the night.

Nor should they. Weather delays/cancellations are not the fault of the airlines. Any traveler flying through northern climes in the winter should be prepared for this type of scenario.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.

  

Good luck with that. That stance is more likely to get you escorted out of the terminal now-a-days.

[Edited 2008-12-24 12:15:49]

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-12-24 12:16:03 and read 7823 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
Hardly. What a joke.

Having flown from ORD myself yesterday and watched the massive board of cancellations from all carriers, not just UA, I can say you best keep your meterological determinations to your side of the pond.

ORD was a disaster yesterday. You couldn't see the field from the ramp it was snowing so hard, not to mention all of southern IL, IA and the region also being pounded.

Your friend was lucky he arrived at ORD in the first place.

NS

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Saab2000
Posted 2008-12-24 12:19:51 and read 7813 times.

Welcome to aviation in the United States. It was probably more reliable in the old Soviet Union. The cutbacks here have been extremely deep and it only works well when weather conditions are ideal and there are no mechanical issues.

As soon as something like a weather event shows up things fall apart and fast.

Flying the US is for the most part unpleasant and unreliable.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: TheGreatChecko
Posted 2008-12-24 12:33:04 and read 7739 times.



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 18):
Welcome to aviation in the United States. It was probably more reliable in the old Soviet Union. The cutbacks here have been extremely deep and it only works well when weather conditions are ideal and there are no mechanical issues.

As soon as something like a weather event shows up things fall apart and fast.

Flying the US is for the most part unpleasant and unreliable.

Flamebait??  Yeah sure

ORD is the equivalent of (actually busier than) LHR or CDG and I sincerely doubt that they would have handled the same situation any better.

Judging the US ATC system against a much less busy and more bureaucratic European ATC system, is poor and unequal comparison.

Checko

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: DL Widget Head
Posted 2008-12-24 12:36:10 and read 7723 times.



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 18):
As soon as something like a weather event shows up things fall apart and fast.

Flying the US is for the most part unpleasant and unreliable.

I have had many similar experiences in Europe not to mention all of the disruptions caused by the multitude of wildcat strikes (but that's for another thread) that are so prevalent over there. ORD is the 2nd busiest airport in the world and operates pretty well most of the time. However, when you throw wind, ice, snow, low ceilings, slippery runways, sub zero temps, etc, into the mix, surely one should understand that things may not operate normally, even deicers as in this case.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2008-12-24 12:43:30 and read 7687 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
this isn't the EU.... we are a little more realistic about what we expect over here. And we also don't punish companies for acts of nature.

Nope, I wouldn't put it exactly like that and it's your opinion only. One could also add your expectations are never high anyhow and, furthermore, much more tolerant of fraudulent reasons. But......that's usually irrelevant to those who's only concern is 'profit'. Could I safely assume then that your stance would mean if the same thing happened in the EU you would obviously refuse any of the compensation offered?

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2008-12-24 12:49:42 and read 7658 times.



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 20):
Judging the US ATC system against a much less busy and more bureaucratic European ATC system, is poor and unequal comparison.

Making such uninformed and incorrect assumptions is as equally irresponsible.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: 777STL
Posted 2008-12-24 12:50:25 and read 7651 times.



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 22):
One could also add your expectations are never high anyhow and, furthermore, much more tolerant of fraudulent reasons. But......that's usually irrelevant to those who's only concern is 'profit'.

The fact that this wasn't a "fraudulent reason" makes your opinion irrelevant.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Dfwagt
Posted 2008-12-24 12:53:47 and read 7639 times.

How much was the ticket? People that are after compensation from air carriers everytime something goes haywire drive me up the wall. Just stay home.  box 

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: TANS
Posted 2008-12-24 13:06:58 and read 7703 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
this isn't the EU.... we are a little more realistic about what we expect over here. And we also don't punish companies for acts of nature.

You wouldn’t (in the vast majority of cases) get any compensation from a European airline either if the cancellation was due to weather. The key here are "extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken". What you describe would have been the case.

I was personally in a very similar situation at LHR with LH on the 23rd of December last year and, if it is any comfort, LH didn’t provide anything for me. They couldn’t even put me on a flight to my original destination before the new year… I ended up paying for a completely new ticket the next day and waited 4.5 months to get a refund from them  Smile.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-12-24 13:27:34 and read 7764 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Now what "WX" only affects one flight, causes them to open the #2 engine, stand around looking puzzled at it, and then switch equipment from a 767 to a 757?

INOP equipment on the plane that is needed to fly into the weather that is forecast enroute or at the destination.

Is it MX, or is it WX? Both are legitimate answers. On the one hand, something on the plane is broken - MX. But on the other, were the adverse weather not there, the plane could have departed on schedule - WX. And it's pretty clear which one the airline is going to choose.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Saab2000
Posted 2008-12-24 13:33:13 and read 7760 times.

Call it what you want. It's not flame bait.

I am a captain for a US carrier and used to fly in Europe for LX. No, it's not perfect there either, but generally things run much more smoothly in Europe than the US.

There are good things in both places, but if I had to choose where to fly, it'd be Europe.

I speak from personal experience and have years of flying experience in the US and in Europe.

Just my opinion.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: C767P
Posted 2008-12-24 14:09:26 and read 7603 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot, especially considering that they were able to send out another flight that day.

I think this is what is wrong with air travel today. Not the airlines, but passengers demanding things and being angry about it.

From examples given on this site to personal experiences you get a lot more if you are courteous to the airline and the employee you are dealing with. It is not like United or any other carrier is trying to make your life miserable, they would prefer that you get to your destination on time.

It amazes me how angry people get so angry over weather related issues. Despite other flights getting there on Tuesday, weather has made travel in general a mess this month. Be happy that your friend got there.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Moose135
Posted 2008-12-24 14:10:40 and read 7597 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 27):
INOP equipment on the plane that is needed to fly into the weather that is forecast enroute or at the destination.

Is it MX, or is it WX? Both are legitimate answers. On the one hand, something on the plane is broken - MX. But on the other, were the adverse weather not there, the plane could have departed on schedule - WX. And it's pretty clear which one the airline is going to choose.

So let me see if I understand you. Let's say the ILS receiver is dead (ignoring MEL considerations). If the weather at the destination is forecast to have low ceilings and visibility, it would be legitimate to cancel the flight with "Weather" as the reason, even though it was clearly because the aircraft had a maintenance issue?

Every year we hear these same horror stories of passengers sleeping on the floor of a terminal, with little or no food or water, without information, having to wait on massive lines in the hopes of getting re-ticketed. I always get the feeling that the airlines are taken by surprise. You would think by now they would have better procedures to deal with this sort of thing. It's not like this is the first winter we have had snow in the US.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: ORDflier
Posted 2008-12-24 14:13:21 and read 7592 times.

So what were you expecting UA to do? Take all the customers off of the later flight that were confirmed on it and accommodate your friend?

I am willing to bet that Lufthansa knew of the weather conditions in Chicago prior to sending him there... Based on your willingness to pile heat on United, maybe you should also place some blame on LH - sending a customer to a destination where there is *known* winter weather conditions. The situation in Chicago was predicted for a full 36 hours prior. LH should have placed him on any of their other flights to North America to connect... but it sounds like they just passed him off.

Secondly, United has had a waiver to allow customers to change their reservations for flights affected by the crazy week of weather affecting Seattle & Chicago for almost the last week.

The fact that a later flight departed means nothing...

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2008-12-24 14:22:30 and read 7557 times.



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 28):
it's not perfect there either, but generally things run much more smoothly in Europe than the US.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4257374/

According to www.orf.at (german only) AZ had about 100 flights cancelled yesterday due to wild strikes of staff at FCO. THe protests were targeted at the new staffing proceeding of CAI.

snip

Seem to see more and more of this in several countries lately...but not in the US where such wildcat actions are not legal. just a drop in comment...grin.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-12-24 14:27:05 and read 7531 times.



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 33):
So let me see if I understand you. Let's say the ILS receiver is dead (ignoring MEL considerations). If the weather at the destination is forecast to have low ceilings and visibility, it would be legitimate to cancel the flight with "Weather" as the reason, even though it was clearly because the aircraft had a maintenance issue?

Yes, it would be legitimate. It would be very sneaky, and if I were a pax on that flight I'd be pretty pissed at not being compensated for the delay. But the argument could be made that it was a cancellation due to weather, since the weather was a factor in cancelling the flight.

I'm not saying I like the principle of it (I don't), but it is legit.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2008-12-24 14:56:27 and read 7477 times.

The fact of the matter is, usually US carries recognize the fact that international pax have priority and do get accomodation paid for (for traffic, mechanical issues or weather). At least CO does practice this. So maybe there is some good in the CO/UA development afterall.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-12-24 15:08:11 and read 7381 times.

Heres my  twocents  worth...
Next time he wants to come to the USA, make it in May. No real weather problems at that
time of year...
safe

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: MrSkyGuy
Posted 2008-12-24 15:11:23 and read 7362 times.

Funny I happened across this post mere minutes after reading an entry at a new airline blog I discovered this week: http://www.airlinecrazy.com/?p=285

Try and remember that there's usually multiple factors affecting your flight before you go all hog wild and blame the airline for "lies" and "breach of contract." I think that blog above describes how you should handle this situation perfectly.. swallow your pride and remember that your seat isn't the only one the carrier has to think about and plan for today.  Smile

Merry Christmas!

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-12-24 15:13:36 and read 7338 times.



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 33):
So let me see if I understand you. Let's say the ILS receiver is dead (ignoring MEL considerations). If the weather at the destination is forecast to have low ceilings and visibility, it would be legitimate to cancel the flight with "Weather" as the reason, even though it was clearly because the aircraft had a maintenance issue?

Yes - if the scheduled aircraft does not have operating equipment which would make the flight legal in the predicted weather, but equipment to make the flight legal in good weather - then it is a weather delay.

There was a thread on this very subject concening a LOT Airlines ERJ-145 flight to Romania which was cancelled. The result of the thread was that the ERJ-145 are not equipped for bad weather Cat-II or III ILS landings. That makes it a WX cancellation by EU rules.

I've had the same thing happen to me on that type aircraft with American Eagle at ORD no less.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2008-12-24 15:17:19 and read 7332 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 38):
The fact of the matter is, usually US carries recognize the fact that international pax have priority

 Confused Frankly things such as fare paid, frequent flyer status are much more important then if a person is on a international trip or not.

Ultimately the airline wants to move all passengers regardless of what their itinerary segment happens to be.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 39):
make it in May. No real weather problems at that time of year...

Spring thunder storms  Smile

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-12-24 15:18:25 and read 7315 times.



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 33):
Every year we hear these same horror stories of passengers sleeping on the floor of a terminal, with little or no food or water, without information, having to wait on massive lines in the hopes of getting re-ticketed. I always get the feeling that the airlines are taken by surprise. You would think by now they would have better procedures to deal with this sort of thing. It's not like this is the first winter we have had snow in the US.

I doubt they're taken by surprise. I think it's cost-cutting.

If the airlines knew that this sort of thing would happen on x day at y airport, I guarantee that they would have a system in place. But while they know something like this could happen, they don't know when, or more importantly where. Or if it will even happen at all - it could just be a mild winter. Having the sort of wide-ranging contingency plans that are required costs money. And if they charge more to cover the costs, the bargain-hunters will just head over to the competitor, where chances are good that they won't get affected by weather, because the probability of being stuck in something like this, even at a northern airport like ORD, MSP, DTW or JFK, is pretty small. And then the airline that did prepare loses money.

As long as the consumers are prepared to run in a race to the bottom dollar, airlines will continue to run a race to the bottom level of service. Granted, some are better at that than others.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Stitch
Posted 2008-12-24 15:22:11 and read 7296 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
The later flight to SEA left without any troubles...

That is because weather changes and airports don't cease operations for the rest of the day when weather first inhibits/prevents them.

A few years back I was stuck in GSO due to severe thunderstorms - said storms extending all the way up to ORD which also shut them down. I fully expected to have to spend the night in ORD Terminal 1 because by the time they could get me out of GSO, the last ORD-SEA flight was scheduled for departure.

However, UA was able to hold that last flight for a bit because they were trying to launch their entire hub and the runways were a little jammed. It was amazing - every taxiway to the departure runways nose to tail with everything from a 747-400 to a CRJ-200 and a plane departing every 60 seconds like a conga line.

So I not only made the connection (which was many hours late), they kicked me up to Row 1 and left the seat next to me open (as well as 1D), so evidently everyone who wanted to get to SEA that evening did so.

I also remember arriving at DEN in 2001 for my morning flight to SEA as a blizzard was starting to fall. They held that 777 for as long as they could because it was the last UA flight getting out before DEN shut-down for snow removal for a few hours and they wanted to fill it to 100% capacity so they could then re-route pax at SEA via SFO/LAX/PDX/ORD on to their final destinations.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2008-12-24 15:25:35 and read 7285 times.



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 39):
make it in May. No real weather problems at that time of year...

Spring thunder storms

Stay away from Dallas in May  Smile

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: DL Widget Head
Posted 2008-12-24 15:29:08 and read 7281 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 38):
US carries recognize the fact that international pax have priority and do get accomodation paid for (for traffic, mechanical issues or weather). At least CO does practice this.

That's not what the CO contract of carriage document says at page 33, rule 24, subsection F, item 1, section c where it states that lodging will NOT be provided due to weather related issues (in this circumstance as the rules may be different in the EU):

http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...ontract_of_carriage.2008122201.pdf

F) Amenities for Delayed Passengers
1) Lodging - The Passenger will be provided one night’s lodging, or a maximum allowance for one night’s lodging
as established by each location, when a CO flight on which the Passenger is being transported incurs a Schedule
Irregularity and the Passenger incurs a delay that is expected to exceed four hours during the period 10:00 p.m. to
6:00 a.m.
EXCEPTION: Lodging will not be furnished:
a) To a Passenger whose trip is interrupted at a city which is his/her permanent domicile, or
b) When the destination city airport that is designated on the Passenger’s Ticket and the city airport that the
Passenger is diverted to are both within the following city groups:
(i) Baltimore, MD (BWI)/Washington D.C. Dulles IAD)/Washington D.C. National (DCA)
(ii) Brownsville, TX (BRO/Harlingen, TX (HRL)/McAllen, TX (MFE)
(iii) Burbank, CA (BUR)/Los Angeles, CA (LAX)/Ontario, CA (ONT)/Orange County, CA
(SNA)/Long Beach, CA (LGB)
(iv) Chicago, IL O’Hare (ORD)/Chicago, IL Midway (MDW)
(v) Colorado Springs, CO (COS)/Denver, CO (DEN)
(vi) Dallas, TX Dallas-Ft. Worth International (DFW)/Dallas, TX Love Field (DAL)
(vii) Ft. Lauderdale, FL (FLL)/Miami, FL (MIA)/West Palm Beach, FL (PBI)
(viii) Houston, TX Bush Intercontinental (IAH)/Houston, TX Ellington AFB (EFD)/Houston, TX
Hobby(HOU)
(ix) Oakland, CA (OAK)/San Francisco, CA (SFO)/San Jose, CA (SJO)
(x) Newark, NJ Newark International (EWR)/New York, NY La Guardia (LGA)/New York, NY
Kennedy (JFK)/White Plains, NY (HPN)
(xi) London, UK Gatwick (LGW)/London, UK Heathrow (LHR)
c) When such interruption is due to circumstances outside CO’s control such as weather condition and air traffic
control delays.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2008-12-24 15:32:09 and read 7248 times.

Stitch...good stories there. No carrier wants to deliberately strand pax anywhere at anytime....all carriers would far far prefer to get pax out...its better for the pax, the crews, and all the employees, and the company at large if it is kept moving. However...when there is weather then safety comes in...to recklessly continue operations in poor weather conditions is illegal and immoral.

Some folks seem to think that airplanes should run like the trains in Europe....the technology is not there for that to happen and won't be for years. Besides...trains do not take you 5-6 miles above the surface of the planet into an environment that would instantly kill you if exposed directly to it....trying to compare the two is just dumb.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2008-12-24 15:50:21 and read 7171 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 45):
Stay away from Dallas in May

Opps.......
I forgot about those "early summer Texas breezes"...you know, those round things that hang down from clouds...
 tongue  safe

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Xdlx
Posted 2008-12-24 16:57:46 and read 6809 times.



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 18):

Not exactly accurate.... but the arrival/departure rate of a facility, should be determined
by its ability to operate under the most extreme weather. If the WX cancelled 500 flts
maybe there is 400 to many ??? Mega-Hubs like ORD/ATL/LHR are going to deal with
mega-problems if their operational tempo can only be sustained in good WX conditions.

It appears the EU has a better handle on this, than we do here in US.


 scratchchin 

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Mir
Posted 2008-12-24 17:08:21 and read 6761 times.



Quoting Xdlx (Reply 49):
but the arrival/departure rate of a facility, should be determined
by its ability to operate under the most extreme weather.

If you do that, you're seriously wasting capacity, since you will rarely see that sort of weather. It makes sense to base your capacity off of MVFR conditions, since those are the worst conditions that are likely to occur on a regular basis, and provide a good compromise between effectively utilizing the airport facilities and providing for less-than-ideal weather.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Saab2000
Posted 2008-12-24 17:14:11 and read 6747 times.

Touched a nerve, I know, but I stand by what I say.

I was trying to commute home 4 days ago. Stuck in ORD for 7 hours before I went to my personal alternate.

The only reason I went anywhere was because I can sit on the jumpseat.

The airport was full of thousands (tens of thousands) of stranded travelers. Surly, mean gate agents telling elderly passengers they could do nothing. That's the truth. Nearly unsanitary conditions in the lavs and food areas. Overcrowded seating areas. No leadership. No ability to do anything by anyone.

Once I was on board the jumpseat we waited almost 1 hour for de-icing, which only took a few minutes.

The weather was not great, but not unmanageable.

Just how it works nowadays.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Xdlx
Posted 2008-12-24 17:22:33 and read 6683 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 50):

Good you've got my point, the facility can absorb and help mitigate the effect
of marginal weather. The problem is the scheduling practices must have real operational
considerations to account for such events. But the common practice is to allow
for marketing and financials to drive the tempo beyond the operational capabilities
of the system. On average ORD sees some kind of WX 150days a year, lets get real
it was bad yesterday, and today. But less scheduling would have permitted a grater
completion rate.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2008-12-24 17:37:29 and read 6664 times.

Just got my friends update. It was four hours. And OF COURSE his luggage got misplaced.


Merry Christmas....

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Jetdeltamsy
Posted 2008-12-24 18:12:19 and read 6480 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
I would have demanded them to compensate me on the spot,

And you would have received nothing.

Chicago had a dramatic weather event yesterday. Hundreds of flights were canceled due to weather.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: United1
Posted 2008-12-24 19:53:03 and read 6087 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 55):
Just got my friends update. It was four hours

Four hours of what? No UA flight between ORD and SEA was 4 hours late today....

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2008-12-24 19:54:09 and read 6078 times.

This is a transcript of a travel segment on CNN. Hard to read, but parts are quite relevant:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0704/14/bt.01.html

NS

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Lfutia
Posted 2008-12-24 21:19:59 and read 5731 times.

I worked yesterday at ORD. I waited 1,5 hours for an aircraft to park at a gate that had 2 wheelchair passengers onboard. The weather sucked big time yesterday. AA also had inop gates due to snow removal. Also, AA's DEL, BRU, DME. FRA all pushed back an hour late for de-icing. I had a Kansas City flight that left 5 hrs late... it was all weather related.

Leo

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2008-12-24 22:45:02 and read 5412 times.



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 48):
It was four hours.

It is a 4 hour flight ORD-SEA...... you act like they took him to LGA first?!

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2008-12-24 22:57:09 and read 5394 times.



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 46):
Once I was on board the jumpseat we waited almost 1 hour for de-icing, which only took a few minutes.

I smell something. As an airline pilot, you should know that it only takes 20 planes per truck to create a 1 hour backlog for de-icing.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 48):
And OF COURSE his luggage got misplaced.

I'll tell you a little something about why so many bags get misconnected during events like this. Say you have an international inbound with 200 connecting bags (a rather low number) to 30 different cities. Pax going to 20 of those cities misconnect. You now have approx. 130 bags from just that one flight joining the other 1500 bags who's owners also misconnected. Passenger makes it on a flight that leaves in 25 minutes. A re-route message is sent to the bag office, which gets buried under the other 100 messages coming through in a 30 minute period. By the time they get to that message, you're probably already at your destination and no one knows where your bag is because they haven't updated the record yet, much less re-tagged the bag to put it on the next available flight.

We care about getting bags to you, because we know what it's like to not be without it. But it's physically impossible to keep up with the pace, no matter how many resources you divert to help the operation.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: UN_B732
Posted 2008-12-25 00:26:44 and read 5170 times.

fortunately ORD wasn't as bad tonight. Still quite a few delays, but not the mass cancellations of yesterday. I got in late from DME, but blocked into LGA 20 minutes early (the flights after/before mine weren't as lucky)

-A

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: B707forever
Posted 2008-12-25 05:00:22 and read 4666 times.



Quoting 777STL (Reply 5):
Yes, well the problem here in the US, is that we don't have a passenger bill of rights, therefore they would probably laugh at you if you demanded as such - unless you're an elite and then maybe they may not laugh as hard.

Too true and it's certainly time that a real passenger bill of rights be approved, a la the European policies. And in the name of fairness, non-revs should be included in those bill of rights, somehow.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2008-12-25 05:04:20 and read 4656 times.



Quoting 777STL (Reply 5):
Yes, well the problem here in the US, is that we don't have a passenger bill of rights, therefore they would probably laugh at you if you demanded as such - unless you're an elite and then maybe they may not laugh as hard. US airlines aren't obligated to give you anything in the event of a weather delay, and most of them won't.

I agree this is completely weather related and thus does not fall under any clause that would provide you with compensation.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 5):
You do realize that ORD got six inches of snow yesterday, don't you? How is that "hardly" a weather delay?

This is after all winter in the upper mid-west.

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 7):
And, of course someone jumps on the bandwagon. While your case may be different, this is obviously weather. It's takes about 2 seconds of watching the news.

Sue? Sue who? The weather man for getting it right? The airline for not providing 1000's of people with hotels that may end up being 100s of miles away because of the little known holiday called Christmas. They don't have the financial resources for that even if they wanted to. Weather delays fall under the Mother Nature clause and don't qualify you for compensation.

Oh and btw the abbreviations you used as in cx and wx are meaningless unless you are a secretary.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Gsosbee
Posted 2008-12-25 07:20:00 and read 4326 times.

If you fly to ORD or JFK as a transfer passenger in the winter, (1) you have to be crazy; (2) have to get to the midwest or upstate NY very bad; (3) value FF miles over common sense; or (4) a combination of all of the above. IAD or DEN are good alternatives for ORD if on UA or *A.

However, in this case, since the flight was booked through LH (even if on UA metal) isn't LH responsible?

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: Apodino
Posted 2008-12-25 07:50:41 and read 4208 times.

I flew through ORD yesterday and had no problem. Our planed didn't even need to get deiced leaving either, since there was no snow.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2008-12-25 10:00:39 and read 3826 times.

This is why I never book winter travel through anywhere like ORD or DEN. You are just asking for something to happen. You would have better chances through maybe DTW and MSP but I try to avoid them in winter as well. From November to April I will go look for connections in ATL or DFW.

Topic: RE: Stranded In ORD Due To WX?! I Doubt It
Username: 44k
Posted 2008-12-25 10:37:06 and read 3716 times.



Quoting 777STL (Reply 5):
US airlines aren't obligated to give you anything in the event of a weather delay, and most of them won't.

Neither are EU airlines. They are only obligated to compensate you when the cancelation/delay is due to their fault.

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 7):
The airline owes your friend nothing. Pay attention to travel conditions before you leave home. This did not happen overnight. Planning. He did not do it and is blaming the airline.

Ditto. The airline didn't strand you there, the weather did!! They were out of the gate for 3 hours trying to make it out!

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 46):
Surly, mean gate agents telling elderly passengers they could do nothing.

A common symptom cause by thousands surly/mean passengers. What do you expect the agents to do? "Beam" the elderly passengers to their destination?

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 48):
Just got my friends update. It was four hours. And OF COURSE his luggage got misplaced

Duh. you got absolutelly no idea what happens in there IRROPS situations at a hub like ORD. I think luggage is one of the last priorities... You're lucky you don't work at a baggage service office, like me.


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