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Topic: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: LH4116
Posted 2009-01-22 12:14:40 and read 9801 times.

Hello.

I've hard from many my fellow school mates who happen to be pilots, say that they get to fly jumpseat only by telling the captain that they're doing flight training.
Of course, it is the captain's decision, but do the airlines have rules for letting non-airline employees fly jumpseat? I'm pretty sure that this is a question of safety, and letting a passenger in to the cockpit during flight could have some disastrous consequences, right?

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: Modesto2
Posted 2009-01-22 12:45:49 and read 9710 times.

Jumpseat access has been thoroughly discussed in this forum, but I'll summarize my thoughts regarding procedures in the United States. In the U.S., jumpseat access is given to CASS-approved pilots and select other employees in the airline industry such as mechanics, dispatchers and certain management folks. That's it in a nutshell - can't speak about other countries.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: Contrails15
Posted 2009-01-22 13:03:24 and read 9624 times.

In my airline, all crew members can fly jump seats in the cabin with only certain people such as Tech Ops, FA's and of course Pilots can fly in the flight deck jump seat.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: SandroZRH
Posted 2009-01-22 13:17:27 and read 9570 times.

I've never had problems getting the seat up front on LX. All you have to do is ask kindly and show your badge (If you train on an Airline-sponsored flight school that is). After all, I'm training at LX's own pilotschool, so I fail to see why i would be a security-threat, especially since I'll start working as LX flightcrew later this year!?

A classmate from Germany takes frequent trips home to DUS on the weekends and he got jumpseat rides on LH, LX and Germanwings, but he has been rejected a couple of times aswell, even on LX flights. It always depends who's sitting up front and the current ciscumstances (weather, technical status, delay etc)

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-01-22 13:28:31 and read 9534 times.



Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter):
I've hard from many my fellow school mates who happen to be pilots, say that they get to fly jumpseat only by telling the captain that they're doing flight training.
Of course, it is the captain's decision, but do the airlines have rules for letting non-airline employees fly jumpseat? I'm pretty sure that this is a question of safety, and letting a passenger in to the cockpit during flight could have some disastrous consequences, right?

It is the captain's discretion as to who occupies the jumpseat. Outside of the US, at least, inside of the US, you either have to be flight crew either working for that company or a part of CASS, a mechanic whose duties require them to be in the jumpseat, an approved management member, or an FAA representative. Nobody else can be in the cockpit in flight.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: KaiGywer
Posted 2009-01-22 14:05:53 and read 9396 times.

I've flown jumpseat several times, and every time I just asked the gate agent (for weight and balance purposes) and then again when I boarded.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: LH4116
Posted 2009-01-22 23:06:58 and read 9031 times.



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 3):
I've never had problems getting the seat up front on LX. All you have to do is ask kindly and show your badge (If you train on an Airline-sponsored flight school that is). After all, I'm training at LX's own pilotschool, so I fail to see why i would be a security-threat, especially since I'll start working as LX flightcrew later this year!?

The poeple i know are doing their flight training at the Scandinavian Aviation Academy, and they aren't affaliated with any airline.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: DTW757
Posted 2009-01-23 04:34:25 and read 8816 times.



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
I've flown jumpseat several times, and every time I just asked the gate agent (for weight and balance purposes) and then again when I boarded.

Do you work for an airline? I've never heard of an average person being given access to the jumpseat during a flight without the proper credentials.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-01-23 04:42:20 and read 8802 times.



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 3):
I've never had problems getting the seat up front on LX.

Sandro it's hard getting a jumpseat even you're a aviation enthusiast. Do you have any information about LX? I wish if I could have a front seat during a PRN-ZRH flight.  biggrin 

Fatmir

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2009-01-23 06:07:12 and read 8693 times.



Quoting LH4116 (Reply 6):
The poeple i know are doing their flight training at the Scandinavian Aviation Academy, and they aren't affaliated with any airline.

Do many pilots, who have graduated from this school, get hired by airlines? In this case, as students, they are already part of the fraternity. The captain might have graduated from the same school years ago.

Jan

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2009-01-23 06:42:33 and read 8500 times.



Quoting DTW757 (Reply 7):
Do you work for an airline? I've never heard of an average person being given access to the jumpseat during a flight without the proper credentials.

Well, you've done now.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: SLUAviator
Posted 2009-01-23 06:56:51 and read 8358 times.

When I was in college I used to throw bags on the ramp in STL. Traveling to Spain from the US on Sabena for spring break in March 2001, I showed the FA my company ID, my old school paper FAA PPL and asked if she would ask the captain if I could sit in the jumpseat. She came back and said that I was welcome to come up once the seat belt sign was turned off, but I was not allowed to sit up front during taxi, takeoff, and landing because I was not a commercial pilot then. It was cool to sit up front for about an hour and half of the two hours between BRU-MAD and listen in on European ATC and talk to the guys.

Now, it is all about CASS in the US. CS agents check me in, sometimes ask for my passport to verify who I am and with the captain's permission I can ride up front when I am trying to go somewhere.

I have not had a reason to ask about sitting up front in Europe since that first trip to the other side of the pond. Does anyone know if Europe has something similar to CASS, or does it depend on the rules of a specific country/airline? Anyone know where I can find answers to something like that?

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2009-01-23 07:24:48 and read 8097 times.



Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 11):

I have not had a reason to ask about sitting up front in Europe since that first trip to the other side of the pond. Does anyone know if Europe has something similar to CASS, or does it depend on the rules of a specific country/airline?

We don't have something like CASS. In general, it's of no use to ask on UK carriers, fair game on others. The worst thing you can get is a no.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: IFACN
Posted 2009-01-23 07:35:03 and read 8017 times.

Fellow flight school classmates got it by simply asking, on domestic flights.

One of these guys is an habitue' of Milan Linate-Brindisi flights and often meets the same crew on every flight. This surely helps.

It's all in how do you ask, how do you look and how much you give a good impression to the crew: e.g. speaking as a guy who's doing it hard to get his ATPL and has logged lots of hours on IR and ME training, looking forward to be a "colleague".

Of course, if local regulations allow it, at captain's discretion.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So E
Username: Enginebird
Posted 2009-01-23 08:16:29 and read 7602 times.



Quoting DTW757 (Reply 7):
Do you work for an airline? I've never heard of an average person being given access to the jumpseat during a flight without the proper credentials.

It is also important to distinguish between pre-9/11 and post 9/11. Before 9/11 it was easy to get access to the cockpit jumpseat even as non-affiliated enthusiast if you new a captain well enough (did it many times, all phases of the flight and domestically as well as intercontinental). Since 9/11 the situation has changed completely: no more access to cockpits for outsiders almost anywhere in the world.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2009-01-23 08:23:33 and read 7549 times.



Quoting Enginebird (Reply 14):
no more access to cockpits for outsiders almost anywhere in the world.

With all due respect, this isn't true. I know for a fact that the US, UK and Canada don't allow outsiders by law, I don't know of any others. Some countries or airlines might be stricter than others, but there are plenty of opportunities around the world.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: FLY2HMO
Posted 2009-01-23 09:46:08 and read 6880 times.

Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter):
Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?

We don't. Certainly not in the US, and certainly not after 9/11.

If you're an employee for you own airline that's still a huge maybe, at least at the airline I worked for.

[Edited 2009-01-23 09:46:26]

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: LH4116
Posted 2009-01-23 10:00:07 and read 6718 times.



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Do many pilots, who have graduated from this school, get hired by airlines? In this case, as students, they are already part of the fraternity. The captain might have graduated from the same school years ago.

They do have agreements with SAS, and Ryanair. But since SAS haven't hired a single pilot since 2000, and Ryanair are parking up planes, they will have a hard time finding a job today.

Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 8):
Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 3):
I've never had problems getting the seat up front on LX.

Sandro it's hard getting a jumpseat even you're a aviation enthusiast. Do you have any information about LX? I wish if I could have a front seat during a PRN-ZRH flight.

Well, if you've heard, Sandro is a guy with a big bunch of tricks up his sleeve, and it wouldn't surprise me if the captain was a woman  bigthumbsup 
No, I'm just kidding...

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2009-01-23 10:04:51 and read 6671 times.

Sure would be nice since I commute. I am a flight attendant for AA, and a licensed pilot, yet I'd get laughed off the plane if I asked to jumpseat (in the cockpit), even on my own airline! Somehow I don't think that will ever change here in the states.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: KaiGywer
Posted 2009-01-23 10:21:25 and read 6531 times.



Quoting DTW757 (Reply 7):
Do you work for an airline? I've never heard of an average person being given access to the jumpseat during a flight without the proper credentials.

I do now, but also before this I was able to. In Europe only, never in the US.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 12):
We don't have something like CASS. In general, it's of no use to ask on UK carriers, fair game on others. The worst thing you can get is a no.

Exactly, last year I jumpseated on KLM Cityhopper, Wideroe, and Denim Air. In the past, you can add SAS and Braathens to that list.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: DTW757
Posted 2009-01-23 10:22:08 and read 6515 times.



Quoting Enginebird (Reply 14):
It is also important to distinguish between pre-9/11 and post 9/11. Before 9/11 it was easy to get access to the cockpit jumpseat even as non-affiliated enthusiast if you new a captain well enough (did it many times, all phases of the flight and domestically as well as intercontinental). Since 9/11 the situation has changed completely: no more access to cockpits for outsiders almost anywhere in the world.

Yeah sorry, as far as I was concerned we are talking about present day. What's past is is past.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: ThePinnacleKid
Posted 2009-01-23 10:31:07 and read 6461 times.



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 18):
Sure would be nice since I commute. I am a flight attendant for AA, and a licensed pilot, yet I'd get laughed off the plane if I asked to jumpseat (in the cockpit), even on my own airline! Somehow I don't think that will ever change here in the states.

No offense, but it shouldn't change in that deparment...

FA's in general (not in your case) don't have much exposure to the stuff that goes on in the flying end of the house... The purpose of riding a jumpseat is you are legally becoming an ACM. As such, you must be able to perform those functions/roles as an ACM. While pilots don't know how to fly each others aircraft, we are capable of assisting in situations due to basic traits of all aircraft... whereas a FA would not be qualified/able to readily assist (radios, checklists, etc...)... On the flip side, Pilots at some airlines ARE allowed to use FA jumpseats because the duty/qualifications are to assist in passenger related safety, which all pilots are trained on... we know position of all your emergency equipment as well as usage and are trained in evacuations just like FA's (minus the verbal commands)...

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: Boeing 777-400
Posted 2009-01-23 13:51:36 and read 5614 times.

I was an intern for AA over the summer of 2007, and the whole reason I wanted to do it was for the jumpseat privileges. We each had to have our CPL and pass a 10-year security background check, fingerprints and all, but then the FAA immediately thereafter told all the airlines that their interns couldn't jumpseat for some reason. So I sat in a cubicle for most of the summer, instead of experiencing what my future job would entail............damn FAA

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: SandroZRH
Posted 2009-01-23 14:10:58 and read 5571 times.



Quoting LH4116 (Reply 17):

Well, if you've heard, Sandro is a guy with a big bunch of tricks up his sleeve, and it wouldn't surprise me if the captain was a woman bigthumbsup
No, I'm just kidding...

 Big grin No, but that trainee crew badge sure helps  Wink

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: Sabenapilot
Posted 2009-01-23 14:31:04 and read 5536 times.

This has indeed been discussed several times on this forum and each time we get several US members telling how it is completely impossible nowadays, whereas Europeans in turn will tell it's still possible, after which a long discussion between the 2 unfolds over laws, rules, regulations and what is the 'norm' is...

To summarize the situation:

It's of no use any longer to ask on US or UK carriers, because in-flight access to the flightdeck is legally forbidden to any unauthorized person by those countries, but in the rest of the western world, access to the flight deck is still decided on by the captain alone, meaning you still have a fair change.

Just ask it politely to the purser during a quiet moment of the flight and explain why you'd love to have the privilege to be invited to take a look and I am sure that while you won't get a positive answer every time, you'll definitely be lucky to be invited up front on on some occasions.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: Mls515
Posted 2009-01-23 18:27:26 and read 5383 times.



Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 21):
No offense, but it shouldn't change in that deparment...

FA's in general (not in your case) don't have much exposure to the stuff that goes on in the flying end of the house... The purpose of riding a jumpseat is you are legally becoming an ACM. As such, you must be able to perform those functions/roles as an ACM. While pilots don't know how to fly each others aircraft, we are capable of assisting in situations due to basic traits of all aircraft... whereas a FA would not be qualified/able to readily assist (radios, checklists, etc...)... On the flip side, Pilots at some airlines ARE allowed to use FA jumpseats because the duty/qualifications are to assist in passenger related safety, which all pilots are trained on... we know position of all your emergency equipment as well as usage and are trained in evacuations just like FA's (minus the verbal commands)...

And yet FA's are qualified to sit in the cockpit while the pilot is in the back taking a dump. What difference would it make if they were catching a ride? They pass the same background check, do they not?

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: LH4116
Posted 2009-01-24 14:34:21 and read 5053 times.



Quoting Mls515 (Reply 25):

And yet FA's are qualified to sit in the cockpit while the pilot is in the back taking a dump.

Usually, aircraft's have a lav in the front too. Besides, I've heard about lavatories in the cockpit. Anyone know what aircraft's have them?

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: Enginebird
Posted 2009-01-25 10:53:58 and read 4789 times.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 15):
With all due respect, this isn't true. I know for a fact that the US, UK and Canada don't allow outsiders by law, I don't know of any others. Some countries or airlines might be stricter than others, but there are plenty of opportunities around the world.

"Almost" may be a little bit too much then. But I know that even outside the US and UK many airlines in Europe and Asia do not allow non-employees to fly in the cockpit anymore. Let's rephrase it to "no access to the cockpit for the majority of flights". OK?  Wink

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 20):
Yeah sorry, as far as I was concerned we are talking about present day. What's past is is past.

No worries. Just thought it would be worth making that point, as I used to fly in the cockpit all the time and cannot get into any cockpits now.

Topic: RE: Why Do Pilot Students Get To Fly Jumpseat So Easy?
Username: JRadier
Posted 2009-01-25 11:08:07 and read 4770 times.



Quoting Enginebird (Reply 27):
But I know that even outside the US and UK many airlines in Europe and Asia do not allow non-employees to fly in the cockpit anymore.

And I know many that do! (no, I'm not going to name them). To take it even further, one of my requests was answered with 'but of course, no problem' and a smile! There are plenty of opportunities.


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