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Topic: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Beaucaire
Posted 2009-01-28 08:22:24 and read 8368 times.

Now that one will hurt but was somehow expected..

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...E-8B094AC38DA1}&dist=TQP_Mod_mktwN

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2009-01-28 08:50:39 and read 8234 times.

Ouch.

Guess outsourcing really is the way after all! Are any of these jobs coming from the BCA division? Whats the likelihood that there will be more industrial action once the unions realise how many of their number will be shown the door?

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Stitch
Posted 2009-01-28 09:02:09 and read 8169 times.



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Whats the likelihood that there will be more industrial action once the unions realise how many of their number will be shown the door?

Zero. They're under contract for the next four years.

And they watched 30,000 of their brethren be shown the door in 2002 and they accepted it.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2009-01-28 09:05:07 and read 8169 times.

Two words: NOT GOOD.

I'm guessing Boeing expects 2009 to be a very tough year. Airbus already reported close to 25% of their backlog being cancelled. More than likely, the same will come from Boeing in 2009.

Some tough times ahead, gentlemen...

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Gr8circle
Posted 2009-01-28 09:15:15 and read 8119 times.

How many of the airlines who are cancelling today will be desperately searching for production slots / used planes, once the (inevitable) recovery happens and market conditions / financing availability improves.....? Will they all go to the end of the waiting line again or will B and A accomodate them back to their original slots....?

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2009-01-28 09:26:26 and read 8019 times.



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
Airbus already reported close to 25% of their backlog being cancelled.

When was this, or do you mean the possibility of being cancelled?

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Revelation
Posted 2009-01-28 09:39:10 and read 7934 times.



Quote:
Job reductions will primarily occur in areas that support productivity and infrastructure

That'll help the 787 a lot, right? Sad

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Beaucaire
Posted 2009-01-28 09:39:52 and read 7934 times.



Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 4):
How many of the airlines who are cancelling today will be desperately searching for production slots / used planes, once the (inevitable) recovery happens and market conditions / financing availability improves.....? Will they all go to the end of the waiting line again or will B and A accomodate them back to their original slots....?

There is some truth in what you say- the current economic downturn will last eventually 12-18 months-but all downfalls are superceded by economic growth.EK have said the same story and will not cancel any orders.
Fact is there are airlines fighting to survive and aircraft orders will be cancelled.But once the growth comes,manufacturers will struggle to supply in time .The need to travel will not dissappear but be restricted for some forseeable timeframe.New airframe-suppliers in Asia and South America will grow faster than the traditional two ones..
10.000 jobs to be axed seems an awfull lot to me.Maybe Boeing has some more order-cancellations in the pipeline that have not made it into the media.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Stitch
Posted 2009-01-28 09:40:36 and read 7912 times.

I expect he meant "possibility", as that is what I have seen reported in the press from both Airbus and analysts.

Boeing still seems to be holding the line on Commercial Aviation production jobs, however. It looks like they're just trying to streamline that "back end" support positions and also looking at the possibility of the F-22 and C-17 programs not getting the extra production funding they expected, as well as other IDS programs either being scaled back or cut.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Khobar
Posted 2009-01-28 09:56:21 and read 7825 times.

"We are also expecting pressure on defense budgets in light of the economic recovery and financial rescue packages."

Yup, like no one saw this coming.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2009-01-28 09:56:34 and read 7825 times.



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 5):
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
Airbus already reported close to 25% of their backlog being cancelled.

When was this, or do you mean the possibility of being cancelled?

At the time of their 2008 orders/deliveries final numbers, Airbus stated that they had 960 gross orders, which went down to 777 net orders, which equals to 183 cancelled orders. I guess I should have not used the term "backlog", but the 2008 orders instead. My fault.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Revelation
Posted 2009-01-28 09:57:17 and read 7827 times.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Boeing still seems to be holding the line on Commercial Aviation production jobs

The article in the thread starter says:

Quote:
(Boeing) plans to slash about 10,000 jobs across its businesses, compared to a prior announcement of 4,500 job cuts from its commercial airplane unit.

How many employees does BCA have?

4,500 seems to be a significant cut.

Also,

Quote:
. "We are also expecting pressure on defense budgets in light of the economic recovery and financial rescue packages."

How about some economic stimulus for Boeing? Everyone else's hand is in the till these days....

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Theginge
Posted 2009-01-28 10:02:41 and read 7769 times.

Wonder if the machineists are regretting going on strike now! A bit short sighted I think!

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Stitch
Posted 2009-01-28 10:07:15 and read 7747 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
How many employees does BCA have?

63,500 after the cut - equivalent to the number they had at the start of 2008.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
10.000 jobs to be axed seems an awfull lot to me.Maybe Boeing has some more order-cancellations in the pipeline that have not made it into the media.

Again, these cuts are coming from ALL Boeing divisions. They build more then just airliners, remember.

The C-17 program is winding down unless the USAF and/or the EU buy more. I believe the F-18 program is also starting to slow and the F-15 program is depending solely on foreign orders, now, which are also dwindling.

Boeing is also involved in a number of weapons systems that are currently in the prototype or initial production phase. If those systems are canceled or deferred, that will result in cuts, as well.

And the commercial satellite building and launching business is also being very hard hit with the implosion of the telecommunications market, so Boeing will be cutting there, as well.

Not to mention Boeing has added to their backlogs across all their lines and Boeing has yet to perform significant production ramps on established lines that would require a cutback (as happened in 2002).



Quoting Theginge (Reply 12):
Wonder if the machineists are regretting going on strike now! A bit short sighted I think!

On the contrary, they're probably happy they got what they did and for four years instead of three, so they are in a better position to ride-out the coming downturn. Even if they had agreed to Boeing's original contract, they'd still be seeing people let go because of lack of work.

[Edited 2009-01-28 10:08:42]

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Stratofortress
Posted 2009-01-28 18:38:45 and read 5459 times.

Roughly half of the 10,000 is at BCA and was announced previously (Nov). The rest (~5000) will come from corporate, support service (travel accounting, building maintenance, etc.) and rest are likely to be from IDS.

F/A-18 is hardly winding down... Multi-year is coming up, as well as 2 huge competitions in India and Brazil.

F-15 platform is dependent on foreign sales, however F-15 upgrades (AESA radar, etc.) are likely to bring in additional domestic work.

Boeing is aggressively expanding into service industry (logistics, maintenance, refurbishing, etc.) so don't expect huge cuts to its core workforce.

Overall, this is not a showstopper, but rather a small course adjustment to reflect economic reality.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: ODwyerPW
Posted 2009-01-28 20:37:26 and read 4994 times.

Surprised no one as supposed that Boeing feels any decision on the tanker replacement program is highly unlikel in the next few years. How many of these jobs are going as a result of a potential 767 line shutdown. Of course unless I can't read the summaries correct..does boeing really have a backlog of 70 767s?

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: GreenIsle
Posted 2009-01-28 21:57:10 and read 4711 times.

There are 2 sides to this story:

1: "Boeing's 27,000 machinists, representing 16% of the company's work force, walked off the job on September 6 in a dispute over new contracts".

How they justify this action given the ecomimic times is beyond me.

2: "The [$205m in the fourth quarter] loss marked a sharp turnaround from a profit of $1.5 billion the same time a year earlier."

Is that not a ~1.2 Billion gain over the 2 years? Are things really that bad to justify 10000 cut. Fair enough to cut in the form of early retirement/attrition etc.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-01-28 23:01:22 and read 4507 times.

AW&ST site says an unnamed customer has canceled 15 firm orders for 787's.

Customers with 15 orders include 2 Chinese airlines, the Russian S7 group, Qantas, and Virgin Atlantic.

[Edited 2009-01-28 23:07:43]

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Rheinwaldner
Posted 2009-01-29 01:09:04 and read 4130 times.

Another drawback of a highly outsourced organization. Such measures happen on the back of the own workers. The capacity of the suppliers is not adjusted accordingly (at least not automatically). The aim to reduce the costs works only for the own share of work. If the suppliers refuse to cut likewise the cost saving effect from an overall perspective is undermined.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Airlittoral
Posted 2009-01-29 04:13:31 and read 3743 times.



Quoting Theginge (Reply 12):

I think it's a little obscene to blame the machinists for exercising their constitutional right. Why don't you blame the entire world economic crisis on strikers while you're at it? This is just ridiculous.

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 4):
How many of the airlines who are cancelling today will be desperately searching for production slots / used planes, once the (inevitable) recovery happens

Hm? I'd love to learn why it's inevitable. Don't you think it's a little premature to forecast a recovery. We still haven't touched the bottom.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
the current economic downturn will last eventually 12-18 months

Same here. I certainly wouldn't commit to a detailed timeframe.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Sxf24
Posted 2009-01-29 05:33:48 and read 3671 times.



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 18):
Another drawback of a highly outsourced organization. Such measures happen on the back of the own workers. The capacity of the suppliers is not adjusted accordingly (at least not automatically). The aim to reduce the costs works only for the own share of work. If the suppliers refuse to cut likewise the cost saving effect from an overall perspective is undermined.

The suppliers have fixed price contracts. If they choose not to reduce their costs (either due to slowing demand or a pre-negotiated decline in their contract pricing), they'll make less money. Boeing pays suppliers a pre-determined amount regardless.

If Boeing had not outsourced as much, you'd see much larger swings in its employment numbers when production was ramped up or down.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Stitch
Posted 2009-01-29 07:13:35 and read 3548 times.



Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 15):
How many of these jobs are going as a result of a potential 767 line shutdown.

The 767 line is good for many years and is actually scheduled for a production rate increase. Boeing is not about to shut it down until they have either definitively won or lost the KC-X RFP and they will know that within a year or two.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
AW&ST site says an unnamed customer has canceled 15 firm orders for 787's.

Confirmed as S7 for economic reasons. About a dozen threads on it right now.  Wink

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2009-01-29 09:31:33 and read 3418 times.



Quoting Airlittoral (Reply 19):
Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 4):
How many of the airlines who are cancelling today will be desperately searching for production slots / used planes, once the (inevitable) recovery happens

Hm? I'd love to learn why it's inevitable. Don't you think it's a little premature to forecast a recovery. We still haven't touched the bottom.

I never said anything about the bottom, nor did I say anything about the length of the recession....economies do not remain in recession forever....they recover from such low phases (however severe they may be) and start moving upwards sooner or later....that's what I'm talking about.....bad as the current situation may be, try to provide a concrete scenario for such conditions to persist indefinitely and you'll find yourself hard pressed to come up with an argument....  smile 

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-01-29 10:31:39 and read 3342 times.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Confirmed as S7 for economic reasons. About a dozen threads on it right now.

Obviously my priorities are wrong. I didn't think it was worth its own thread.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: A10WARTHOG
Posted 2009-01-29 10:32:38 and read 3341 times.



Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 15):
How many of these jobs are going as a result of a potential 767 line shutdown.

At this time, Boeing is talking about not laying off the production people. But I believe that, about as far as I can throw a 747. We will just have to wait and see.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Stitch
Posted 2009-01-29 10:40:48 and read 3331 times.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 23):
Obviously my priorities are wrong. I didn't think it was worth its own thread.

Sorry for coming across as an ass there. Just noting that all the active threads talking about Boeing or the 787 at the moment are also discussing S7's cancellation, including one specifically about it, so I'm trying to keep this thread on the main topic of the announced job cuts.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-01-29 11:59:04 and read 3330 times.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
Sorry for coming across as an ass there

You didn't. At the time I posted I don't believe there was another thread. I should have know there would be.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Moman
Posted 2009-01-29 12:25:20 and read 3294 times.

Those of us who have been 'inside' Boeing have seen the massive waste there. Close-mindedness and incompetence are core competencies.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2009-01-29 12:29:22 and read 3280 times.



Quoting Theginge (Reply 12):
Wonder if the machineists are regretting going on strike now! A bit short sighted I think!

Strike or no strike, this would have been the outcome. It is the economy, and many things that created this issue. The strike did not help matters, but it is not the ultimate reason for the downturn.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2009-01-29 13:02:05 and read 3223 times.



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
Two words: NOT GOOD.

 checkmark 

Everyone keeps crowing about how Boeing is rolling in cash. Companies that are rolling in cash don't lay off 10,000 workers.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2009-01-29 14:13:24 and read 3144 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Everyone keeps crowing about how Boeing is rolling in cash. Companies that are rolling in cash don't lay off 10,000 workers.

They do if they want to keep rolling in cash (in the short term). Don't get me wrong, I think this round of layoffs aren't a very good strategic move, but cash flow is more a near-term thing than a long-term thing when you're looking at it possibly going negative.

Cutting 10,000 should save Boeing something like $600MM in cash per year in the short term (assuming an average comp of $60,000...it's higher than salary because of all the benefits).

Tom.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Pianos101
Posted 2009-01-29 14:13:48 and read 3138 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Everyone keeps crowing about how Boeing is rolling in cash. Companies that are rolling in cash don't lay off 10,000 workers.

Isn't it all relative though? Think about what the strike did to some of the partners that had to drastically cut down operations and furlough/lay-off workers. That was just because of a BCA strike (mostly).

Most of the cut positions at boeing are probably going to be on programs that aren't super-performing, like C-17. I really don't think many of the cuts will be from BCA, which DOES still have pretty deep pockets. Things will change, no doubt, to err on the side of prudence in times like these, but the cash is there nonetheless...

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2009-01-29 19:35:04 and read 2996 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
Two words: NOT GOOD.

There's nothing good about a recession, whether it's Boeing, Microsoft, Toyota or the likes of GM and Chrysler.....

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Everyone keeps crowing about how Boeing is rolling in cash. Companies that are rolling in cash don't lay off 10,000 workers.

Having cash reserves does not mean that a company will not lay off workers in tough times, to maintain their position......Toyota is rolling in cash, but they too are making noises about closing some plants for weeks together, closing a few here and there, completely if required, etc. Microsoft is another example....

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2009-01-30 00:48:49 and read 2882 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Everyone keeps crowing about how Boeing is rolling in cash. Companies that are rolling in cash don't lay off 10,000 workers.

Why not? They are being careful. They do have a huge amount of cash stockpiled, but they also know how quickly that cash can burn in the current economy. 10K layoffs are not good, and it is indeed sad. But, Boeing has to maneuver itself to survive long term. If it means reduction of 10k jobs, then unfortunately, they will go that route.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 30):
They do if they want to keep rolling in cash (in the short term). Don't get me wrong, I think this round of layoffs aren't a very good strategic move, but cash flow is more a near-term thing than a long-term thing when you're looking at it possibly going negative.

Well said.

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Astuteman
Posted 2009-01-30 01:50:21 and read 2856 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Everyone keeps crowing about how Boeing is rolling in cash. Companies that are rolling in cash don't lay off 10,000 workers.

Using a large amount of cash as an excuse to have "loose" manning levels is a sure way of running into problems at a later date - especially in the current climate.
As it is:-

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 33):
They do have a huge amount of cash stockpiled

I don't think Boeing DO actually have a huge amount of cash stockpiled.  no 
According to Wednesday's communication, Boeing Corp. net cash currently stands at $3.6Bn.

See this thread..
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/read.main/4297868/#12

(EADS currently has E9Bn net cash, which is, what, around $12.5Bn? just for comparison).

Boeing do forecast being able to generate $2Bn in cash next year.
But on the basis that EADS said the A380 delays gave them the thick end of a E6Bn cash shortfall from (IIRC) 2006-2009, then it would appear to me to be prudent for Boeing to preserve as much cash as possible in order to
a) cope with any charges that might arise from the 787/748i delays, and
b) give boeing more scope to provide customer/supply chain financing in these times of tihgt credit.

Rgds

Topic: RE: Boeing To Cut 10.000 Jobs
Username: Flybyguy
Posted 2009-01-30 15:27:18 and read 2692 times.



Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
How about some economic stimulus for Boeing? Everyone else's hand is in the till these days....

Boeing seems to be in good shape financially. It's well known for its conservatism when it comes to its finances. That's probably the reason why the IAM strike went on for so long. The union was probably asking for more than Boeing thought was financially prudent for the long term (U.S. automakers are a case study as to why companies should push back at union requests). I think at the end of the day Boeing lost revenue for the 2008 fiscal year, but having the IAM contract gain more every three years would probably send Boeing into bankruptcy in 20 years.

Don't get me wrong... the unions should push back at corporate offers as well. The whole process probably gets very emotionally charged, but a mentality of compromise is certainly in order.

Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 20):
If Boeing had not outsourced as much, you'd see much larger swings in its employment numbers when production was ramped up or down.

This is very true. I think considering the size of the company the number of layoffs are small. Keeping employment stable through outsourcing and contractor work is beneficial to the U.S. economy as a whole, because the nation's growth would be less dependent on unsustainable employment levels... meaning ever gentler recessions.


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