Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4320092/

Topic: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Airsrpska
Posted 2009-02-16 22:22:34 and read 14845 times.

HI there!

I was thinking about this long time...
What you guys think about this:
Airbus A 380 single class ( economy of course!) configuration on flights to America?!
Its maximum certified carrying capacity is 853 passengers in an all-economy-class configuration. So, my idea would be;
BA flight from LHR to EWR or,
LH from FRA to EWR ?!

Would that be possible?
Financially, I guess....

By the way, did some airline already ordered single class bird?

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Flyboysp
Posted 2009-02-16 22:45:03 and read 14796 times.



Quoting Airsrpska (Thread starter):
By the way, did some airline already ordered single class bird?

Air Austral have order 2 A380 aircraft, with a capacity of 840 passengers.
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/airline...nto-sardine-can-20090116-7imb.html

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-02-16 22:54:34 and read 14749 times.



Quoting Airsrpska (Thread starter):
Would that be possible?
Financially, I guess....

Both would be possible. But why would an airline want to put an all-economy aircraft on an NYC route? Even though EWR isn't generally seen as the premium traveller airport that JFK is, there is plenty of high-paying traffic in the area to support F and J cabins. Airlines would be shooting themselves in the foot to not offer premium cabins to that market.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Richcandy
Posted 2009-02-16 22:58:35 and read 14732 times.

Hi

I am not sure I get what you mean. Yes if say BA were only to put economy seats on an A380 then there is no reason why they could not operate a LHR-EWR/JFK service with this. However I don't think BA makes that much money in economy on the New York route and they need to sell Business class seats to make any sort of profit. (I was once told by a BA account manager that the economy class cabin on the LHR-JFK route operates at a loss & that Business class make a big profit)

Alex

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: N104UA
Posted 2009-02-16 22:59:37 and read 14742 times.

There is a lot of premium traffic across the pond, why do you think Ryan Air is going to have J class on their USA flights, so I do not see this working, one of the only reasons EK has high density is for flights to mecca

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Australis
Posted 2009-02-16 23:19:31 and read 14663 times.

I really dont see this idea been taking up by any airline at either end of what you propose. Its a premium market which means that airlines focus on business passengers who would bring in more revenue per seat than a normal passenger at the back. And plus, it would only mean that if an airline did this, it would only be daily, while BA and LH fly 3-6 daily on these routes for a reason  Wink

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2009-02-16 23:41:39 and read 14592 times.

Definitively none of the full service providers, they use the A380 to sell plenty of space to F, enough space to C, plenty of seats in Y. This leaves enough free payload for the cargo.

There is maybe a market for very low cost TATL, people who have to pay tickets from their own money and cannot get 50% back from taxes. But on this I see 390 seater A333 as best aircraft, low costs, many seats, and filling 390 seats is easier than 850 every day. How many of these are operating currently?

And O'Leary will not get 150 A380 at half price.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Flood
Posted 2009-02-17 00:24:02 and read 14473 times.

Without meaning to hijack the thread, what about implementing the opposite and operating a 380 exclusively with first and (primarily) business. Basically, to offer a business product with increased space and a more friendly working environment - more in line with a flying office.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2009-02-17 00:45:07 and read 14413 times.



Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
(I was once told by a BA account manager that the economy class cabin on the LHR-JFK route operates at a loss & that Business class make a big profit)

This is EXACTLY RIGHT! On many transatlantic routes, economy passengers are just ballast. They're there to help cover some, but not all, of the over all costs of the trip. Hence business models like AA's which basically give out rather little in economy on long haul. What those passengers do allow for, however, is the airlines in question to increase frequency to a level otherwise not possible. So basically, the higher amount of frequencies allows airlines like BA to be able capture a much bigger share of the business market then otherwise possible.

What the A380 offers in these cases, is the ability to get PREMIUM class space at lower prices per m2, enabling a more luxurious product.

Compare this to other routes were economy passengers actually pay more then what they cost to fly. That is why companies like SIA, Emirates, Qantas, Cathay etc can well afford to put substancially more effort into their economy cabins. They're actually competing for profitable business. Not profitable enough to work without the premium cabins... but enough to cover their costs and a little on top. Hence why Emirates loves the 77W. They lower they can get the cost base per economy pax...the more they make. If those passengeres were unprofitable... they'd be using a much smaller aircraft very quickly.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: SYDAircargo
Posted 2009-02-17 00:55:03 and read 14384 times.

well with the downturn in Business traffic it might be an idea. maybe having a 2 class configuration would be better just a few Business seats and the rest in eco

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: CV990Coronado
Posted 2009-02-17 01:39:42 and read 14248 times.

Why would anyone want to configure a brand new premium aircraft in all economy class even if it took 800 pax. If I wanted to offer an all economy product I would go for a 767 in 8 abreast or a 330 in 9 abreast.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Antonovman
Posted 2009-02-17 02:37:31 and read 14070 times.

It has been tried before many times over. All economy Transatlantic flights all the airlines have all lost money on it. Remember Laker ? People express ? to name a couple

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: DRAIGONAIR
Posted 2009-02-17 02:45:04 and read 14034 times.

840 are a lot of pax...I would see them putting in a bit less so that people have more leg room...That would be a good idea, giving economy a bit more space so that it will be more appealing.

Nick

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: SYDAircargo
Posted 2009-02-17 04:28:50 and read 13788 times.

i dont want to see the traffic jam at the baggage claim having a few of the all Eco A380 arriving at one airport at the same time. plus one day we will be back to normal in Air traveling (i hope)
so i dont really see the need for that. unless the destination asks for such a service .
how about DUS-PMI or LHR-PMI for all the Tourists? instaed of LTU flying 9 times a day that route in peak season they could do it in 3 times.
all economy A380 where always discussed in terms of Japan domestic flights. so far no Japanese carrier has ordered one. not even in 3 class config.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Shanxz
Posted 2009-02-17 05:22:48 and read 13655 times.

I can imagine budget airlines in the high-density Middle East routes or on domestic -Japanese routes flying a single-class A380.

Possible routes, eg for FlyDubai or AirArabia might be JXB/Sharjah to DEL/Dhaka/Manila/BOM/Riyadh

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: EBJ1248650
Posted 2009-02-17 05:23:03 and read 13655 times.



Quoting CV990Coronado (Reply 10):
Why would anyone want to configure a brand new premium aircraft in all economy class even if it took 800 pax. If I wanted to offer an all economy product I would go for a 767 in 8 abreast or a 330 in 9 abreast.

I don't think the thread starter realized how little money there is to be made flying economy class passengers. His idea has merit, from the customer point of view, in that you fly a lot of economy class passengers, making it possible for larger numbers of low income folks to make an Atlantic crossing at a price within their means. Maybe his idea was to encourage more long distance travel by the less-than-well-to-do. Financially sound or not, I like the way he thinks.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2009-02-17 05:29:57 and read 13631 times.

A380 to teh USA today are the Qantas flights to LAX and The Emirates flights to JFK. In a few years Korean Air will operate an A380 to LAX and other US cities. BA, AF and LH are all A380 airlines, so they too will operate it to teh USA, especially JFK & LAX. SQ said Flight to SFO would be an A380 route but today is still an 77W.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Shanxz
Posted 2009-02-17 05:39:00 and read 13594 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 16):
A380 to teh USA today are the Qantas flights to LAX and The Emirates flights to JFK. In a few years Korean Air will operate an A380 to LAX and other US cities. BA, AF and LH are all A380 airlines, so they too will operate it to teh USA, especially JFK & LAX. SQ said Flight to SFO would be an A380 route but today is still an 77W.

SQ will also replace its existing B744 from SIN - FRA - JFK to an A380 in times to come. This should calm the nerves of folks disappointed with their 744 product, as compared to the rest of the brand new fleet.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Airsrpska
Posted 2009-02-17 07:51:56 and read 13033 times.



Quoting SYDAircargo (Reply 9):
well with the downturn in Business traffic it might be an idea. maybe having a 2 class configuration would be better just a few Business seats and the rest in eco

That's why I posted this thread

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 15):
I don't think the thread starter realized how little money there is to be made flying economy class passengers. His idea has merit, from the customer point of view, in that you fly a lot of economy class passengers, making it possible for larger numbers of low income folks to make an Atlantic crossing at a price within their means. Maybe his idea was to encourage more long distance travel by the less-than-well-to-do. Financially sound or not, I like the way he thinks.

You got me!  Smile

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Norlander
Posted 2009-02-17 08:21:53 and read 12653 times.

One of the few routes across the pond that - I think - can handle a 840 pax A380 are the holiday flights to Florida. This is a huge market already (mostly from the UK), and could become even bigger if the travel costs came down a bit. If it would cost the same for Scandinavians/Germans/Dutch to have their holiday in Florida compared to the Canary Islands and Turkey then they'd go in even larger numbers. The weather is better, the infrastructure for mass tourism is second-to-none and extended vacations into the old colonial parts of the Caribbean can lure additional travelers.

Many of us crave sunshine during our Winter (1 week in feb) and Easter breaks.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2009-02-17 16:52:00 and read 8086 times.



Quoting Airsrpska (Thread starter):
Its maximum certified carrying capacity is 853 passengers in an all-economy-class configuration. So, my idea would be;
BA flight from LHR to EWR or,
LH from FRA to EWR ?!

The airlines would never go for this type of scenario. The Y class pax is looking for cheap and in order to make a profit you would have to have rather expensive Y class or offer some form of premium class to make any money at this type of venture.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 6):
And O'Leary will not get 150 A380 at half price.

BTW what type of aircraft is O'Leary going to be using on the TATL market and will there be any reclining seats or would you have to put money into a slot on the side of the seat to make it recline?

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Avek00
Posted 2009-02-17 18:19:48 and read 7423 times.

SQ is cutting capacity on North America, including a REDUCTION in capacity on SFO-HKG-SIN. So I don't expect to see them operating an A380 to America anytime soon, previous pre-global recession statements by SQ notwithstanding.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Jfr
Posted 2009-02-17 19:19:34 and read 7029 times.

I understood that EK had ordered their 380's with three different seating layouts, including one type with high density economy seating for routes like MNL to DXB.

Did I get this right?

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: _AA_777_MAN
Posted 2009-02-17 20:16:10 and read 6653 times.

I think LO would do pretty well with an all economy A380. Maybe once daily WAW-ORD?
 optimist 

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Flygbear
Posted 2009-02-17 21:03:49 and read 6376 times.

How about carriers lease an all-economy A380 for holidays/special events. Such as El Al during the Christmas holiday rush, or Mecca charters, World Cup soccer finals. TAM could lease during Mardi Gra. I'm sure it would have been a hit in China during the Olympics, were it available at that time. Those examples would be a landslide for the carrier, at least in load factors.

That alone would make an airline CEO salivate.

flygbear

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-17 21:07:13 and read 6360 times.

No, I don´t think the EU-US market is big enough for that, too many operators.
Air Austral order is more a "political" one to me than purely biz.
Ryanair won´t buy another airplane than B737 I´m convinced of that.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: LACA773
Posted 2009-02-17 22:52:54 and read 5989 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 16):
A380 to teh USA today are the Qantas flights to LAX and The Emirates flights to JFK. In a few years Korean Air will operate an A380 to LAX and other US cities. BA, AF and LH are all A380 airlines, so they too will operate it to teh USA, especially JFK & LAX. SQ said Flight to SFO would be an A380 route but today is still an 77W.

I thought QF would've been flying SYD-LAX daily with the 388 by now, and not just x4 per week going up one additional frequency in addition to the x2 weekly from MEL.
Will QF ever increase SYD-LAX to daily or are things just too vulernable right now for them to consider doing this?
If they did go daily, would they axe the other daily flight on certain days or are they keeping it this way to give the flexibility to passengers though it's not a big fluxuation in departure times.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 21):
SQ is cutting capacity on North America, including a REDUCTION in capacity on SFO-HKG-SIN. So I don't expect to see them operating an A380 to America anytime soon, previous pre-global recession statements by SQ notwithstanding.

Isn't SFO one of SQ's prime routes? Has premium demand fallen off that much out of their for them to remove SFO from the future 388 destination lists? We all know how bad things are in the US as well as everywhere else, but I thought SFO was doing particularly well for them compared to other Asian carriers.

Since NH has gone 77W on their NRT-LAX-NRT route and JL will begin to do the same in November when they remove the 744 from this route and replace it with 77Ws, will we see SQ fly a mix of 388s and 77Ws on this route?

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-02-18 17:36:12 and read 5651 times.



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 8):
Hence why Emirates loves the 77W. They lower they can get the cost base per economy pax...the more they make. If those passengeres were unprofitable... they'd be using a much smaller aircraft very quickly.

Don't forget that EK also crams in more economy passengers on all their 777s than most other carriers thanks to their 10-abreast configuration. They are thus able to generate more revenue from economy passengers on their 777s than most other carriers. Very few other 777 operators have 10-abreast seating on longhaul 777s. Two that come to mind are AF and KL but only on 77Ws, not 772ERs.

Topic: RE: Airbus A380 On Flights To USA
Username: Ual747
Posted 2009-02-18 18:15:53 and read 5607 times.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 26):
I thought QF would've been flying SYD-LAX daily with the 388 by now, and not just x4 per week going up one additional frequency in addition to the x2 weekly from MEL.
Will QF ever increase SYD-LAX to daily or are things just too vulernable right now for them to consider doing this?
If they did go daily, would they axe the other daily flight on certain days or are they keeping it this way to give the flexibility to passengers though it's not a big fluxuation in departure times.

Do they enough aircraft to do that at this point? Enough A380's I mean.



As far as all economy A380 it needs to be high demand leisure markets where you can fill a plane that big ALWAYS. Most flights make their money off of cargo and premium paying passengers, not economy passengers. Which, is why you will see premium aircraft are often taken off routes where they can't perform full in first and business. For example, look at AA and their 777s. Look at how many they've pulled off of certain routes and replaced them with 767's because of poor performance in premium demand. They are ONLY on a few routes and they have a HUGE fleet of 777s.

These are:
DFW-FRA
DFW-LHR
DFW-NRT
JFK-LHR
MIA-LHR
LAX-LHR
ORD-LHR
ORD-DEL
MIA-GRU
MIA-EZE

ORD-DEL HAS to be a 777 for it to be nonstop, but this route performs quite well.

DFW-NRT same thing.

AA has pulled the 777 from CDG, BRU, DME, SCL, GIG at some point or another and changed it to a 767.

Other than that, unless the A380 becomes a super-people transporter in Japan/Asia like a bus, I don't see the point in ordering one in an economy configuration unless you have a HUGE charter operation.


Also, remember, not all airports can handle the A380, therefore some of the "alternate" markets might not work either because of that reason.

Basically, the only thing I can think of is EU to Florida for an all economy A380, then again, I don't think even THAT will work. The A380 is just too big not to be a multi-class aircraft in most situations.

UAL

UAL

[Edited 2009-02-18 18:23:46]

[Edited 2009-02-18 18:28:39]


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/