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Topic: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2009-02-25 06:10:53 and read 36027 times.

Please continue the discussion of the events surrounding the crash of Turkish Airlines flight TK1951 at Amsterdam Schiphol in this third installement.

The previous episodes of this discussion may be found here:

Part 1
Part 2

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 06:13:35 and read 36076 times.

Still watching CNN live... Not any further clarify information.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 06:14:48 and read 35996 times.

There is a map here ::

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3...kte_op_vrijgegeven_A9__.html?p=9,1

Click to enlarge.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Bahadir
Posted 2009-02-25 06:16:40 and read 35832 times.

not enough coverage in CNN US.. I cannot even get CNN international on my cable.. damn them!!!

Aydin/Wing , gecmis olsun  Sad I am speechless..

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KL577
Posted 2009-02-25 06:16:59 and read 35854 times.

I will repost this here:

Quote:
Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 198):
German TV: AMS tower confirmes that emergency was decleared prior to crash due to engine problems, airport prepared for emergency landing.

I don't hear this on either of the Dutch channels (NOS / RTLZ). Neither has Schiphol released any other press statements since the short press conference at 1.30 pm, again the airport and the emergency services will provide more details at the next press conference (4 pm local time).

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Tobias2702
Posted 2009-02-25 06:17:28 and read 35875 times.

German news magazine (spiegel.de): crash was intended emergengy landing, so they couldn't make it to the airport anymore. Speculative reasons:
Loss of power in 1 oder both engines due to bird strike or running out of fuel
Passenger reports heavy vibrations shortly before crash -- what could this mean?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 06:17:55 and read 35910 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
There is a map here ::

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3...kte_op_vrijgegeven_A9__.html?p=9,1

Click to enlarge.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: RichM
Posted 2009-02-25 06:18:30 and read 35900 times.

I've found an Air Traffic control recording which claims to be related to this incident:

Link:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=555_1235561927

[Edited 2009-02-25 06:20:23]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 06:18:08 and read 35697 times.

it's horrible...one network says crew is dead, some say alive...this is horrible

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 06:19:15 and read 35689 times.

Quoting one of the largest dutch aviation forums, it is illegal in The Netherlands to publish any ATC conversation without being cleared to do so.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Vfw614
Posted 2009-02-25 06:20:05 and read 35533 times.

Quoting Cmoltay (Reply 194):
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 173):
The TK press release mentions 7 crew - how does that add up? The Facebook list contains 9 crew members, 4 of those pilots. What would be, by the way, a "PILOT VE" in contrast to a "PILOT"?

Pilot ve murettabat listesi = Pilot and crew list

Kabin ekibi = cabin crew

Thanks. That makes more sense then (should have noted myself that "murettabat listesi" and "Kabin ekibi" do not sound like names). So it is 3 cockpit crew and 4 cabin crew.

I am still astounded why it is still so unclear what has happened to the flight deck crew. I could imagine that it is not easy to talk about the cabin crew if it has escaped the airplane, but it must at least be possible to clarify if the cockpit crew is still trapped in the cockpit and if so, whether they are dead or alive. Just imagine thre stress for their friends and relatives with the information changing almost every other minute or so.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Ogre727
Posted 2009-02-25 06:20:23 and read 35532 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 9):
Quoting one of the largest dutch aviation forums, it is illegal in The Netherlands to publish any ATC conversation without being cleared to do so.

by whom?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: 747ata32
Posted 2009-02-25 06:20:25 and read 35558 times.

Dutch news states both pilots died (RIP) and still stuck in the cockpit. Would hate to be the one who's job it is to get them out.
This wil not make the investigation easier.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 8):
it's horrible...one network says crew is dead, some say alive...this is horrible

According to Dutch newspaper "Telegraaf" both pilots are dead and still stuck in the cockpit.
(would hate being the guy who gets them out)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 06:21:56 and read 35540 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 8):
it's horrible...one network says crew is dead, some say alive...this is horrible

I know its the not knowing that is the worst for you and the families. Sky News just speaking to a reporter on the scene who said a tent has indeed gone up by the cockpit and showed a photo of dead bodies covered with sheets not far from the overwing exits.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 06:22:26 and read 35431 times.

Some more pictures, all credits to the photographer: http://www.atcbox.com/modules.php?na...&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CURLYHEADBOY
Posted 2009-02-25 06:25:35 and read 35155 times.



Quoting RichM (Reply 7):

I've found an Air Traffic control recording which claims to be related to this incident:

Link:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=555_1235561927

[Edited 2009-02-25 06:20:23]

Sounds real though...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Beagleboys
Posted 2009-02-25 06:25:43 and read 35166 times.

repost:

Looking to photos of the tail:
it looks like that the "separation area" are in the toilet zone. So, MAYBE the crew that was seating there is alive, badly injured, but MAYBE alive. Obviously if some heavy equipment(ex. boxes) has been pulled off from its position(some engineer maybe can say how many Gs can resist a galley latch) the hopes for them are really low(i remember a colleague has been killed by a galley box that wasn't properly latched during a normal landing).

2 consideration looking at this photo: http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/ANP-9259316.jpg

1. the thing that come out from the fuselage(after the cockpit) can be IMHO a part of the galley that end exactly here.
2. Look at the slide on the open door: it look like it has been disarmed before opening the door. Some suggestion?

As other said: All my condolences and prayers to all the colleague and families of those involved.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 06:28:17 and read 34772 times.

Heres an interesting video, though I DO NOT in anyway encourage people to film such footage while driving on the highway. Interesting is one of AMS's fire department's crash tenders is at the spot, while they usually dont go off airport limits IIRC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLN4TIbK1iA&eurl=

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 06:28:56 and read 34764 times.



Quoting 747ata32 (Reply 12):
According to Dutch newspaper "Telegraaf" both pilots are dead and still stuck in the cockpit.
(would hate being the guy who gets them out)

What about the 3rd pilot, he should be in the jumpseat as the safety pilot?! what about him?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2009-02-25 06:29:11 and read 34741 times.

Seems like windshear based on witness and passenger reports. As far as deaths NBC News London is reporting the deaths came from the rear of the aircraft, which based off the pictures is no surprise.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Part147
Posted 2009-02-25 06:31:19 and read 34531 times.

Reposted from Thread 2:

>>Quoting OA260 (Reply 186):
>> picture of engine

This engine doesn't look like it was spinning when the aircraft hit the ground - It's almost certain it was shut down in-flight, according to this other picture...

>>Quoting Beagleboys (Reply 189):
>> http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...6.jpg

...it's the starboard engine.

What a tragedy, My heart goes out to all those touched and affected on this terrible day.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CURLYHEADBOY
Posted 2009-02-25 06:32:17 and read 34534 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 19):
Seems like windshear based on witness and passenger reports.

A passenger interviewed by CNN told "We were landing normally, when all of a sudden it felt like sinking and 4 or 5 seconds later we found ourselves in a field"

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: SQ325
Posted 2009-02-25 06:32:14 and read 34340 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 19):
NBC News London is reporting the deaths came from the rear of the aircraft, which based off the pictures is no surprise.

Thats why I am very surprised to hear that the Cockpit Crew died in this Crash.
I would have assumed that the rear FAs and the last 2 or 3 seatrows must be the location of the fatalities.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2009-02-25 06:33:25 and read 34323 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 19):
Seems like windshear based on witness and passenger reports.

Doubtful...ESPECIALLY based on witness and passenger reports.

[Edited 2009-02-25 06:34:06]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Skippy777
Posted 2009-02-25 06:33:51 and read 34338 times.

Expecting NO FUEL

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3...stof_mogelijk_oorzaak__.html?p=1,1

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2009-02-25 06:34:12 and read 34101 times.

In any case I feel sorry for all relatives and people involved, a tragic day.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: StevAAn
Posted 2009-02-25 06:35:05 and read 37390 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 19):

The weather is/was rather calm....scale 2 bft...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 06:36:02 and read 37274 times.

Quoting Skippy777 (Reply 24):

Please use caution whith reading things from this newspaper, it has a bad reputation... I find it very very hard to believe that they wouldnt have diverted with critical fuel, the pilots know the long taxi procedure after landing at AMS 18R.

[Edited 2009-02-25 06:36:30]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 06:36:53 and read 37237 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 8):
it's horrible...one network says crew is dead, some say alive...this is horrible

If you ask me, it is lack of responsibilty from media, my friend. All of those crew members have so many behind them who eagerly wants to hear some REAL information and who are experiencing true hell this whole day. It makes me really angry to see how they are playing with nerves of those people

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: JCS17
Posted 2009-02-25 06:37:47 and read 37182 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 19):
Seems like windshear based on witness and passenger reports. As far as deaths NBC News London is reporting the deaths came from the rear of the aircraft, which based off the pictures is no surprise.

Doubtful. There were no reports of windshear on final previous to this aircraft, and wind was around 10 knots at the time.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Beagleboys
Posted 2009-02-25 06:37:57 and read 37220 times.



Quoting Part147 (Reply 20):
>>Quoting Beagleboys (Reply 189):
>> http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...6.jpg

...it's the starboard engine.

sorry... maybe its my bad english... i'm speaking of the things that comeout from the top of the fuselage, on top of door 1R

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2009-02-25 06:39:00 and read 36909 times.

Thoughts, prayers and condolences to the families and victims.

May they rest in peace.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KL577
Posted 2009-02-25 06:42:38 and read 36646 times.

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 22):
Thats why I am very surprised to hear that the Cockpit Crew died in this Crash.
I would have assumed that the rear FAs and the last 2 or 3 seatrows must be the location of the fatalities.

A few passengers are interviewed on Dutch news as well as a guy who was standing next to the site of the crash and assisted in the evacuation: most severly injured and probably died passengers were in the back. A few people were stuck between wretched chairs in the middle-section where the fuselage is broken.

I have not heart any confirmed news on the status of the pilots.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 27):
Please use caution whith reading things from this newspaper, it has a bad reputation... I find it very very hard to believe that they wouldnt have diverted with critical fuel, the pilots know the long taxi procedure after landing at AMS 18R.


Virtually all the media are coming up with wild speculations and guesses. Let's wait for the press conference in 25 minutes.

Edit: spelling

[Edited 2009-02-25 06:44:47]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2009-02-25 06:42:41 and read 36499 times.

It does seem odd to me that the impact was severe enough to split the fuselage in three, severing the tail, killing passengers (although granted there's no way to tell right now if the impact forces or something else actually killed them) and there not be a post-crash fire. I guess since the aircraft hit in a more or less wings-level position the chances of compromising the wing tanks are reduced a bit, but still.

At the same time it's really hard to read anything into the lack of a post-crash fire. If ARFF found leaking fuel would they spray retardant on it?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: RichM
Posted 2009-02-25 06:43:20 and read 36495 times.



Quoting SQ325 (Reply 22):
Thats why I am very surprised to hear that the Cockpit Crew died in this Crash.
I would have assumed that the rear FAs and the last 2 or 3 seatrows must be the location of the fatalities.

That is very sad to hear.

What would cause the pilots to be stuck in this case though? I am no expert at all, but from the outside, the deformation of the cockpit looks as though it could have been a lot worse.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2009-02-25 06:42:57 and read 36432 times.

Any official news if the a/c flight recorders have been located yet?  Confused

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: SQ325
Posted 2009-02-25 06:48:51 and read 35690 times.



Quoting RichM (Reply 34):
the deformation of the cockpit looks as though it could have been a lot worse.

Thats exactly my point. The deformation is not that horrible.
We have to wait for a couple of hours before we know for sure.
From the pictures I was really surprised to read that the rear FAs are alive and the pilots dead.
At this stage we shouldn' t believe any rumor as long as rescue services are still working on the crashsite.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Exsr
Posted 2009-02-25 06:48:53 and read 35640 times.



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 35):
Any official news if the a/c flight recorders have been located yet?  

That shouldn´t be a problem in this case.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Ehvk
Posted 2009-02-25 06:50:48 and read 35614 times.

I just read on Scramble that someone spoke a passenger who has spoken the Captain after the crash. Don't know whats true about it but it does make all speculations bigger.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2009-02-25 06:50:34 and read 35653 times.



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 23):
Doubtful...ESPECIALLY based on witness and passenger reports.

Such as one saw the planes nose pitch up suddenly and a passenger said the pilot was applying engines right before what felt like turbulence. That sounds a lot like it, the increase of throttle could have been normal just like what happens often time before landing anywhere.

Quoting StevAAn (Reply 26):
The weather is/was rather calm....scale 2 bft...

I remember the same thing in Denver one day as far as weather and then there was a sudden windshear that nearly put down an F9 plane. Myself during flight training ran into windshear on a rather nice day in Minnesota.


I found this rather shocking that turkish publishes the passenger list

http://www.thy.com/DarkSiteEN/passenger_list.aspx

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Part147
Posted 2009-02-25 06:51:05 and read 35600 times.



Quoting Beagleboys (Reply 30):
sorry... maybe its my bad english...

No, I'm sorry Beagleboys - I'm just linking your picture ...

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...6.jpg

with OA260's ...

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...141/swisstrip2007/tkb737800014.jpg

and making the connection that the starboard engine looks like it was not rotating when it hit the ground.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Sydaircargo
Posted 2009-02-25 06:51:35 and read 35458 times.

found this on a German news website (sorry only in German) lot of speculation

Quote:
Zur Ursache des Absturzes gebe es noch keine Erkenntnisse, sagte Bezuijen. Die Untersuchungen gingen weiter. Vorrang hätten zunächst die Rettung der Menschen und die Bergung von Verletzten gehabt. Jedoch schlossen Luftfahrtexperten nicht aus, dass der Pilot wegen technischer Probleme auf dem Feld notlanden wollte. Dem Flugzeug sei der Sprit ausgegangen, lauteten einige Meldungen der türkischen Medien. In anderen hieß es, die Maschine habe ein oder sogar beide Triebwerke beim Landeanflug verloren. Anderen Berichten zufolge soll ein noch in der Ausbildung befindlicher Pilot das Flugzeug bei der Landung gesteuert haben. Der Azubi habe einen Fehler gemacht und die Maschine in Richtung des Ackers gesteuert. Der Flugzeugkapitän, einer der erfahrensten THY-Piloten überhaupt, habe noch versucht, den Fehler zu korrigieren, doch habe die Zeit nicht mehr gereicht.
unquote:

wonder if thats true that a pilot in training made a mistake .

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 06:52:52 and read 35156 times.

Delegation from Turkish government and TK heading to AMS.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Exsr
Posted 2009-02-25 06:52:49 and read 35244 times.



Quoting SQ325 (Reply 36):
The deformation is not that horrible.

The cockpit itself looks relatively intact from the outside - but you do not know which forces impacted the crews´bodies during the crash sequence.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 06:53:58 and read 35133 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 19):
Seems like windshear based on witness and passenger reports

Highly unlikely as there was no severe weahter whatsoever in the vicinity of the airport. Weather was calm.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Venus6971
Posted 2009-02-25 06:55:00 and read 35060 times.

It appears looking at the pictures that most of the cabin crew were probably hurt severely due to the fact that none of the escape slides were not deployed. What also concerns me that just aft of the flt deck a bulk head member is sticking through the fuselage which the FA sitting at the flt deck bulkhead more and likely was a casualty, I also come to the same conclusion looking at the tail section that the FA's did not fair too well.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 06:56:02 and read 35027 times.

I just heard from one of our girls, that one of the F/As made it out ok with a broken leg...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Exsr
Posted 2009-02-25 06:56:58 and read 34665 times.



Quoting Sydaircargo (Reply 41):
Zur Ursache des Absturzes gebe es noch keine Erkenntnisse, sagte Bezuijen. Die Untersuchungen gingen weiter. Vorrang hätten zunächst die Rettung der Menschen und die Bergung von Verletzten gehabt. Jedoch schlossen Luftfahrtexperten nicht aus, dass der Pilot wegen technischer Probleme auf dem Feld notlanden wollte. Dem Flugzeug sei der Sprit ausgegangen, lauteten einige Meldungen der türkischen Medien. In anderen hieß es, die Maschine habe ein oder sogar beide Triebwerke beim Landeanflug verloren. Anderen Berichten zufolge soll ein noch in der Ausbildung befindlicher Pilot das Flugzeug bei der Landung gesteuert haben. Der Azubi habe einen Fehler gemacht und die Maschine in Richtung des Ackers gesteuert. Der Flugzeugkapitän, einer der erfahrensten THY-Piloten überhaupt, habe noch versucht, den Fehler zu korrigieren, doch habe die Zeit nicht mehr gereicht.
unquote:

Translation:
No news about the crash. Investigation is going on. Rescue of passengers is most important at the moment. Experts agree, that the pilot might have tried an emergency landing. Turkish media says that they were probably running out of fuel. Others say that a "trainee" was flying the aircraft and made a mistake with flying the a/c into the field while the captain, one of the experienced captains of THY tried to rescue the aircraft but had no sufficient time.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 06:57:33 and read 34658 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 46):
I just heard from one of our girls, that one of the F/As made it out ok with a broken leg...

Glad to hear that, Pilotaydin.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 06:59:48 and read 34372 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 46):
I just heard from one of our girls, that one of the F/As made it out ok with a broken leg...

Thats great news , I hope there are more stories like that in the next few hours.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 07:01:54 and read 34237 times.

Official press conference is delayed to 1630.

RTL 7 (dutch) is showing footage of the dead, and pictures of the flight crew, the german media appearantly has some paranormal figure in the studio which can communicate with the pilots in the afterlife. God the media makes me sick!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2009-02-25 07:02:09 and read 33691 times.



Quoting Exsr (Reply 47):
Others say that a "trainee" was flying the aircraft and made a mistake with flying the a/c into the field while the captain, one of the experienced captains of THY tried to rescue the aircraft but had no sufficient time.

Me hopes this is just more (Turkish or other) media speculation and the truth about this crash will soon be revealed after they find and analyze the aircraft's flight recorders.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 07:03:31 and read 33786 times.



Quoting Exsr (Reply 47):
while the captain, one of the experienced captains of THY tried to rescue the aircraft but had no sufficient time.

The pilot was experienced and had flown for the Turkish Air Force, the airline added.

Source
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...eaks-pieces-Amsterdam-airport.html

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 07:04:21 and read 33677 times.

TK have said they will fly free of charge 2 members of each passengers family to AMS.

Passengers interviewed said the plane dropped like a brick and there is no trail behind the A/C so this seems to be the case.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2009-02-25 07:03:56 and read 33688 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 39):
Such as one saw the planes nose pitch up suddenly and a passenger said the pilot was applying engines right before what felt like turbulence. That sounds a lot like it, the increase of throttle could have been normal just like what happens often time before landing anywhere.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I just doubt it. Especially based on two witness reports. Those two things could prove to be circumstancial.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Higgi91
Posted 2009-02-25 07:05:57 and read 33392 times.

anyone noticed how winglets are sheared off / broken

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Higgi91
Posted 2009-02-25 07:06:53 and read 33157 times.



Quoting Higgi91 (Reply 55):

how you think that happened (soz im a newb)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-02-25 07:08:02 and read 33150 times.

Just woke up, and heard this. Indeed really sad. What a disaster. Shortly after the CO crash, now this happens.


I really wonder what happened.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 07:09:32 and read 32849 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 57):
I really wonder what happened.

Sadly no one knows exactly what happened there.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 07:10:15 and read 32725 times.

One of the hospitals which takes care of 6 of the wounded, issued a statement that all passengers are doing "RELATIVELY WELL"

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 07:10:21 and read 32785 times.



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 33):
It does seem odd to me that the impact was severe enough to split the fuselage in three, severing the tail, killing passengers (although granted there's no way to tell right now if the impact forces or something else actually killed them) and there not be a post-crash fire

From several eye-witness reports it can be deduced that the aircraft went into a full stall just before it hit the ground. Apparantly the tail struck the ground first at an angle of attack of between 15 and 25 degrees. Forward speed was very low, as the drag trail in the ground is also very short, about one or two times the length of the aircraft.

After the tail hit the ground, again apparently, the plane rotated forward and the nose hit the ground pretty hard. From photo's it appears that the lower section of the front fuselage is also pretty banged up, and possibly the nose gear has been pushed into the cockpit. That would explain severe trauma in the cockpit and why the cockpit crew could not be removed without heavy equipment.

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FlyingAY
Posted 2009-02-25 07:11:18 and read 32676 times.



Quoting Higgi91 (Reply 55):
anyone noticed how winglets are sheared off / broken

Considering how badly the fuselage and tail is broken from the impact, I'd imagine that the winglets broke off during the impact as well.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Speedmarque
Posted 2009-02-25 07:12:52 and read 32471 times.

With regards to posts asking about why the slides have not deployed: On some a/c the cabin crew procedure in a "belly landing" is to disarm the door before opening the door as in that case the slide would actually impede the exit.

Maybe this is the case here? I used to operate 737s but cant remember the exact procedure as it was many years ago!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: RichM
Posted 2009-02-25 07:13:24 and read 32860 times.

Quoting Higgi91 (Reply 55):
anyone noticed how winglets are sheared off / broken



Quoting Higgi91 (Reply 55):
how you think that happened (soz im a newb)

Afaik the winglets are only fixed onto the wing. It has been known for them to detach from the wings unintentionally. With this in mind, I don't think it would take that much force for them to detach from the wing itself.

Also, in future, it might be better to edit your post instead of double posting.  

- RichM

[Edited 2009-02-25 07:15:01]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Glareskin
Posted 2009-02-25 07:15:08 and read 32280 times.



Quoting Tobias 2702 (Reply 176):

German / Dutch TV: according to tower emergency was declared prior to landing; passenger speaks of heavy vibrations when still in air

I have heard a passenger on Dutch televison who claimed to have not noticed anything at all before impact.

Quoting Beagleboys (Reply 16):
repost:

Looking to photos of the tail:
it looks like that the "separation area" are in the toilet zone. So, MAYBE the crew that was seating there is alive, badly injured, but MAYBE alive. Obviously if some heavy equipment(ex. boxes) has been pulled off from its position(some engineer maybe can say how many Gs can resist a galley latch) the hopes for them are really low(i remember a colleague has been killed by a galley box that wasn't properly latched during a normal landing).

2 consideration looking at this photo: http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...6.jpg

Nice of you to repost but I don't see the tail on this picture.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-02-25 07:15:15 and read 32163 times.



Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 58):
Sadly no one knows exactly what happened there.

True, but there are a lot of rumors about a stall.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Flypig687
Posted 2009-02-25 07:15:38 and read 32191 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 53):
Passengers interviewed said the plane dropped like a brick and there is no trail behind the A/C so this seems to be the case.

If that is the case, that makes a stall sound more likely.

Hopefully the will find the data recoders and start crunching the data so the speculation will stop.

Also is it possible if it just stalled out and fell, the aircraft could of hit pitch up, tail first (maybe the pilot recovered from the stall and tried to climb but did not have time/altitude). The shock could then of caused the seperation of the nose, which had no support of the ground below it. The impact could of taken off the tail.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Ozflyer333
Posted 2009-02-25 07:16:21 and read 31987 times.

No post crash fire
No foam from tenders
Starboard engine blades seem relatively intact suggesting engine not turning at impact.
Possible cause of sudden fall: Fuel starvation

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 07:17:57 and read 31912 times.

I just hear news that popular dutch music radio is not broadcasting any songs about "flying" today. Wow, thats a relief... I also heard rumours that the pilot "detached" the engines before the crash. Lovely media...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: RichM
Posted 2009-02-25 07:19:42 and read 31634 times.



Quoting Flypig687 (Reply 66):
Passengers interviewed said the plane dropped like a brick and there is no trail behind the A/C so this seems to be the case.

Is it possible that the passengers may have got the "drop" confused with a flare? I'm not sure whether this happened before a flare would have normally commenced.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2009-02-25 07:19:34 and read 31657 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 60):
From several eye-witness reports it can be deduced that the aircraft went into a full stall just before it hit the ground. Apparantly the tail struck the ground first at an angle of attack of between 15 and 25 degrees. Forward speed was very low, as the drag trail in the ground is also very short, about one or two times the length of the aircraft.

After the tail hit the ground, again apparently, the plane rotated forward and the nose hit the ground pretty hard. From photo's it appears that the lower section of the front fuselage is also pretty banged up, and possibly the nose gear has been pushed into the cockpit.

Now that does sound plausible to me. I also see a rupture in the top of the fuselage just aft of the cockpit...I don't know the 737, but isn't there some sort of bulkhead here that could have been pushed through the top of the fuselage on impact? If so...wow. That must have been one amazingly hard hit.

Also the bottom of the forward fuselage looks pretty incredibly crunched. It must have taken a massive hit.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Flypig687
Posted 2009-02-25 07:21:22 and read 31283 times.



Quoting RichM (Reply 69):
Is it possible that the passengers may have got the "drop" confused with a flare? I'm not sure whether this happened before a flare would have normally commenced.

Not sure, but I would think this is a little far from the runway for iniation of a flare.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: JensOBreuer
Posted 2009-02-25 07:23:52 and read 31074 times.

perhaps a fuel pump/flow issue like on the crashed BA 777 ...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: AustrianZRH
Posted 2009-02-25 07:24:09 and read 30819 times.

First of all, I hope all survivors will get well soon, and the perished ones may rest in peace. My deepest condolences to all affected by that crash.

Quoting Ozflyer333 (Reply 67):
No post crash fire
No foam from tenders
Starboard engine blades seem relatively intact suggesting engine not turning at impact.
Possible cause of sudden fall: Fuel starvation

However, there are some credible (in combination with the missing slide trail of the a/c) reports that the plane stalled and crashed like a brick. In case of a double engine failure, the pilot flying wouldn't pull up the nose until the aircraft stalls but rather put down the nose and try to glide it to the ground. A (gliding) belly landing would probably not have caused the damage seen here.

My (speculative) theory: Plane hit the ground first with the tail at high pitch. This stressed the fuselage in front of the tail that much that the tail was seperated, leading to the rest of the fuse dropping down nose first. The nose impact finally broke the fuselage aft of the front section.

Does anyone know what the max bending forces of the fasteners along the fuselage between the fuse sections are?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 07:24:21 and read 30845 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 50):
RTL 7 (dutch) is showing footage of the dead, and pictures of the flight crew, the german media appearantly has some paranormal figure in the studio which can communicate with the pilots in the afterlife. God the media makes me sick!

You have those types of media folks over there too?  Wink

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 51):
Me hopes this is just more (Turkish or other) media speculation and the truth about this crash will soon be revealed after they find and analyze the aircraft's flight recorders.

Unfortunately for the media's "news cycle", the recovery and analysis of the CVR and DFDR won't happen today, and probably not for a couple of days, but hey, let the rampant speculation begin!

(Maybe there was a Martian space cruiser in the airport traffic pattern and the 738 crashed while trying to avoid a mid-air collision..)

(If a journo picks that up and actually airs/publishes that, I will absolutely die laughing...)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-02-25 07:25:59 and read 30618 times.



Quoting JensOBreuer (Reply 73):
perhaps a fuel pump/flow issue like on the crashed BA 777 ...

But then, why this impact if it is the same problem as the BA 777?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: SAA380
Posted 2009-02-25 07:26:35 and read 30318 times.

Wow,

really sad to hear. I hope they come to a conclusion to what happened soon.

Truly shocking news.  frown 

SAA380  airplane 

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 07:27:48 and read 30280 times.



Quoting JensOBreuer (Reply 73):
perhaps a fuel pump/flow issue like on the crashed BA 777 ..

That sprung to my mind also but its way too early to tell. Im sure it will be on the minds of those investigating.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 07:28:18 and read 30103 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 76):

Wouldnt count on it, that incident was specificly related to the FOHE on the 777s RR Trent's engines.

Official press conference is expected to start in 3 minutes, will keep you up to date.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2009-02-25 07:28:31 and read 30092 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 44):
Highly unlikely as there was no severe weahter whatsoever in the vicinity of the airport. Weather was calm.

You don't have to have severe weather for windshear to happen, microburts and such yes, but you don't need severe weather for windshear.

Quoting Exsr (Reply 47):
Others say that a "trainee" was flying the aircraft and made a mistake with flying the a/c into the field while the captain, one of the experienced captains of THY tried to rescue the aircraft but had no sufficient time.

Well they should define that more since trainee isn't a good suffix, they train in the sim's and its not like they just let the guy start flying with no flying experience.

Quoting RichM (Reply 63):
Afaik the winglets are only fixed onto the wing. It has been known for them to detach from the wings unintentionally. With this in mind, I don't think it would take that much force for them to detach from the wing itself.

Well I think he talking the fact the winglets are broke halfway up, they are still attached to the wing, but the actual winglet itself is broke in half.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2009-02-25 07:28:47 and read 30087 times.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 75):

While there are many stupid media people around, one must also acknowledge that they, in fact, serve a public interest. After all, we all want to know what happened, and why it happened. Of course this cannot be said today with 100% certainty, as we all are aware of, but some decent speculation is acceptable.

Lets wait for the investigation. In any case, this is a bad start for this aviation year, we had 3 severe accidents with modern western aircraft already, in a short timeframe...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2009-02-25 07:28:50 and read 30076 times.

Sorry to have to wake up to this news this morning, and my prayers and condolences to all the families involved...but something has struck me here:

This seems to be the first major accident for a 737NG. Anyone else concur?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: RichM
Posted 2009-02-25 07:30:41 and read 29912 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 82):
This seems to be the first major accident for a 737NG. Anyone else concur?

No, there has been a few, such as a Kenya airways incident which killed all on board. (737-800)

[Edited 2009-02-25 07:32:35]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: JensOBreuer
Posted 2009-02-25 07:31:15 and read 29853 times.

There was also the midair collision with the GOL 737NG

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 07:31:27 and read 29867 times.



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 82):
This seems to be the first major accident for a 737NG. Anyone else concur?

Maybe relative to the ground; that GOL mid-air was, well, in mid-air....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: SyeaphanR
Posted 2009-02-25 07:32:10 and read 29969 times.

BBC speculating fuel starvation...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7910215.stm

OK...Unless it's under the wreck, where's the port engine?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Planesailing
Posted 2009-02-25 07:31:58 and read 29844 times.



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 82):
This seems to be the first major accident for a 737NG. Anyone else concur?

One was lost a couple of years back in Africa I believe.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2009-02-25 07:34:32 and read 29351 times.

Oh what an absolute tragedy! My hearts go out to the families and loved ones. I hope they can find a cause for the accident.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 07:34:37 and read 29654 times.



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 84):
Just a polite guess though, you are a pro and know better.

well we are all guessing at this point, but i just highly doubt it...
if they ran out of fuel, NO pilot in their right mind would pitch up., we're already in the region of reverse command, we would pitch down...and increase speed

the flaps are at 40 which means there was njo engine failure before hand...other wise it would be at flaps 15

i think they let the speed bleed, and stalled

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2009-02-25 07:34:49 and read 29455 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 82):
his seems to be the first major accident for a 737NG. Anyone else concur?

There was also this deadly runway overrun of Southwest, which involved a 737-700...

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...3-8%&cat=%1&sorteer=datekey&page=1

http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Type=103-7

[Edited 2009-02-25 07:36:18]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 07:35:40 and read 29368 times.



Quoting Planesailing (Reply 88):
One was lost a couple of years back in Africa I believe.

Yes KQ 507

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KL577
Posted 2009-02-25 07:35:21 and read 29438 times.

A Dutch NOS-reporter says on television just now:

"We don't know if the black box has been found. We will ask at the press conference coming up. And if it is found we have to ask what they have found inside"  banghead 

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Iberia340600
Posted 2009-02-25 07:37:34 and read 29122 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 80):
Well I think he talking the fact the winglets are broke halfway up, they are still attached to the wing, but the actual winglet itself is broke in half.

Is it possible that maybe the plane struck some trees before crashing in that field...hence part of the wingtips being ripped off?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Prebennorholm
Posted 2009-02-25 07:38:32 and read 28919 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 80):
...but the actual winglet itself is broke in half.

Knowing the surroundings of AMS, it is very likely that the plane made it though some treetops before hitting the ground. That would easily explain the winglet damage. They are composite structures, so they will break, not bend.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Kappel
Posted 2009-02-25 07:38:44 and read 28895 times.



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 82):
This seems to be the first major accident for a 737NG. Anyone else concur?

Nope, remember the GOL crash? That was even worse.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Beagleboys
Posted 2009-02-25 07:39:51 and read 28921 times.



Quoting Glareskin (Reply 64):
Nice of you to repost but I don't see the tail on this picture.

it was in another photo.

Quoting Speedmarque (Reply 62):
Maybe this is the case here? I used to operate 737s but cant remember the exact procedure as it was many years ago!

checked on an operation manual. no instruction to disarm slide in case of belly crashland (i think you have no time to do that, since you have to reach the floor with 100+ people in panic on your back...)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Jpiddink
Posted 2009-02-25 07:40:07 and read 28712 times.

Press conference starts NOW

http://www.nos.nl/journaal24/wmv.html

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Asorock
Posted 2009-02-25 07:43:05 and read 28396 times.



Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 5):
Passenger reports heavy vibrations shortly before crash -- what could this mean?

Stall, where an aircraft loses minimum power/thrust at which it can glide. In effect the plane could have fell shortly after this vibration, but the rather graceful way the plane fell without fire or catastrophic explosions suggests this happened seconds earlier...

Lucky passengers.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Jpiddink
Posted 2009-02-25 07:43:23 and read 28470 times.

official announcement at press conference:

9 deceased, not specified pax or (flight/cabin) crew

18R to remain closed until further notice

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 07:45:52 and read 28094 times.

AMS officials: 34 persons wounded.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 07:47:09 and read 27887 times.

More than 80 people have been taken to hospital in surrounding areas of Amsterdam. 25 people have severe injuries . 24 moderate injuries.

[Edited 2009-02-25 07:49:49]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KL577
Posted 2009-02-25 07:46:54 and read 27897 times.

Update from the press conference from the public health officer:

Around 80 passengers are injured and hospitalized. 6 passengers are still in critical condition, 25 are seriously injured, 24 have light injuries, 31 have yet not specified injuries.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 07:48:04 and read 27819 times.

No confirmation of any crew deaths

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KL577
Posted 2009-02-25 07:47:41 and read 27859 times.

They do not want to comment on the survival status of the pilots.

[Edited 2009-02-25 07:48:42]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 07:48:42 and read 27571 times.

60 ambulances were deployed. They are NOT yet confirming the crew is dead, nothing about the black boxes either

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2009-02-25 07:48:59 and read 27587 times.



Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 74):
In case of a double engine failure, the pilot flying wouldn't pull up the nose until the aircraft stalls but rather put down the nose and try to glide it to the ground. A (gliding) belly landing would probably not have caused the damage seen here.

Not at the altitude they were at, putting the nose down would cause even more of a disaster.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 91):
There was also this deadly runway overrun of Southwest, which involved a 737-700...

Well that killed one little boy in a passing car

Quoting Iberia340600 (Reply 95):
Is it possible that maybe the plane struck some trees before crashing in that field...hence part of the wingtips being ripped off?

Looking at the field and where it was at I don't see any tree's in its flight path until way back or in front of it, the field is pretty open all around the plane and since there was no skidding that should eliminate that.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 97):
Nope, remember the GOL crash? That was even worse.

True, perhaps the first major incident of the 737NG that was itself related, the GOL crash was due to ATC and the collision, not something by itself.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 07:49:21 and read 27822 times.



Quoting KL577 (Reply 107):
They do not want to comment on the status of the pilots.

i dont get it...they're in uniform, they were in the deck...what do u mean you need a pax list to confirm, why won't they tell us?!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Fn1001
Posted 2009-02-25 07:50:45 and read 27339 times.



Quoting Asorock (Reply 100):
Press conference starts NOW

http://www.nos.nl/journaal24/wmv.html

For those who can not get a steady stream of bits and bytes from nos.nl and understand german:

this klink:

http://www.n-tv.de/61215.html

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Winfo
Posted 2009-02-25 07:50:58 and read 27338 times.

Obviously the a/c entered a stall. The reason could be fuel starvation due to lack of fuel , engine ice or simply too low on glidepath with correction too late.

F

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Bahadir
Posted 2009-02-25 07:51:39 and read 27296 times.



Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 52):
The pilot was experienced and had flown for the Turkish Air Force, the airline added.

given the accident history of other turkish accidents, that's more of a liability than a credibility of flight crew....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 07:51:50 and read 27316 times.



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 81):
While there are many stupid media people around,

Ding!

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 81):
one must also acknowledge that they, in fact, serve a public interest.

Ding!

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 81):
After all, we all want to know what happened, and why it happened. Of course this cannot be said today with 100% certainty, as we all are aware of,

Ding!

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 81):
but some decent speculation is acceptable.

BUZZ!

The problem is that the definition of "decent speculation" is in the mind of the speculator.

Believe it or not, I actually kind of empathize with the situation the media find themselves in during such events. You have this tragic occurence, which usually provides "visuals", yet there's little meaningful factual info available in those first minutes/hours after the accident for the corresponding audio for broadcast. As a result, to avoid "dead air" (nobody talking) the babble and speculation begin, which includes comparison and/or links with some past accidents that contextually may have nothing to do with the current one being covered. (I halfway expect to see links made to the loss of the Hindenberg one day..) Viewers never see "corrections" to the initial incorrect information (not that it's ever admitted to be incorrect in the first place), and folks go off believing "A" when subsequent info suggesting "B" or "C" later comes to light. No "corrections", just "updated" stories that mask the incorrect and inaccurate info from the initial reporting.

In any accident, the initial info in that first 12-24 hours, and 24-36 hours is all subject to radical change. Some are dead. Everyone survived. All perished. There are 2 injured. There are 142 injured. There are 1,042 injured. It was on fire on the way down, It WASN'T on fire on the way down. We hear the full range. In 48 hours, everyone will be looking at things differently than they are now.

[/THREADCREEP]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 07:52:30 and read 27177 times.

3 crew are still on board the AC, all dead.

Edit, all 3 are seated in the cockpit...

[Edited 2009-02-25 07:53:21]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KL577
Posted 2009-02-25 07:52:41 and read 27105 times.

Confirmed now: Still corpses of three deceased crew are on board.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: E195
Posted 2009-02-25 07:52:44 and read 27048 times.

apparently '3 members of crew perished'

David

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Fn1001
Posted 2009-02-25 07:52:54 and read 27048 times.

3 creew members still in the AC acc to official statement

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Stylo777
Posted 2009-02-25 07:53:12 and read 27007 times.

three crew members are dead and still onboard  Sad

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FVTu134
Posted 2009-02-25 07:53:26 and read 27006 times.

3 crew still in aircraft and sadly deceased Sad

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 07:53:59 and read 27121 times.

Now, it is confirmed. All three cockpit crew members died.  Sad My condolences to their families, friends, to their colleagues

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2009-02-25 07:54:24 and read 26723 times.



Quoting Asorock (Reply 100):
Passenger reports heavy vibrations shortly before crash -- what could this mean?

Stall

Hmm... I don't remember a stall inducing vibrations - unless you're talking stickshaker, but then you'd have to be a pilot, not a passenger to feel it. No way for a passenger to feel any kind of "vibrations" prior to stall - unless they're created by an engine.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FlyingAY
Posted 2009-02-25 07:55:29 and read 26700 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 109):
True, perhaps the first major incident of the 737NG that was itself related, the GOL crash was due to ATC and the collision, not something by itself.

As stated before, Kenya Airways flight 507 (737NG) crashed in bad weather conditions. I believe no cause has been determined yet for that crash.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 07:56:40 and read 26403 times.

Dutch reporters are actually speculating that the position of the RUNWAY is the cause of the accident!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Planesailing
Posted 2009-02-25 07:57:04 and read 26455 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 114):
3 crew are still on board the AC, all dead.

Just saw this on BBC news.

It is a shame, they are the most informative witnesses in such an accident and won't be able to tell the story.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 07:58:16 and read 26400 times.

3 crew dead in cockpit and they cant move them due to the investigation

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2009-02-25 07:58:02 and read 26160 times.



Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 103):
How many hearts DO you have?

I have one. I guess I should have said my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and there families and loved ones.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KL577
Posted 2009-02-25 07:58:13 and read 26218 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 123):
Dutch reporters are actually speculating that the position of the RUNWAY is the cause of the accident!

That's the same silly woman as I quoted before:

Quoting KL577 (Reply 93):
A Dutch NOS-reporter says on television just now:

"We don't know if the black box has been found. We will ask at the press conference coming up. And if it is found we have to ask what they have found inside"   

She really has no clue what she is talking about.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 07:58:26 and read 26231 times.



Quoting Winfo (Reply 112):
Obviously

Sorry, but the only things "obvious" at this point are that there's a 738 sitting in a field and it's broken up in pieces, and further, that there are some fatailites and injuries.

Anything related to how/why the aircraft came to end up that way is far from obvious at this point, just hours after the event.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Skippy777
Posted 2009-02-25 07:59:30 and read 26191 times.

Confirmed 3 cabincrew dead in the cockpit.
They remain there due to the investigation

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 08:00:10 and read 25989 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 123):
Dutch reporters are actually speculating that the position of the RUNWAY is the cause of the accident!

Damn! I just KNEW they should have moved it!  Wink

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Exsr
Posted 2009-02-25 08:01:01 and read 25961 times.



Quoting Skippy777 (Reply 129):
Confirmed 3 cabincrew dead in the cockpit.

Three cabin crew dead in the cockpit????????????

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2009-02-25 08:01:16 and read 25933 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 68):
I also heard rumours that the pilot "detached" the engines before the crash

Do they have a procedure to do that?

I know some airbus' have a ditching config but how do Boeing detach the engines?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: EMA747
Posted 2009-02-25 08:01:53 and read 25872 times.



Quoting KL577 (Reply 127):
"We don't know if the black box has been found. We will ask at the press conference coming up. And if it is found we have to ask what they have found inside"

She really has no clue what she is talking about.

A load of wires and electronics. Stupid media.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Exsr
Posted 2009-02-25 08:02:25 and read 25622 times.



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 132):
Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 68):
I also heard rumours that the pilot "detached" the engines before the crash

Do they have a procedure to do that?



Oh please - come on.....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 08:03:18 and read 25588 times.



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 132):

Obviously it is not possible do detatch the engines. Sorry if I made it look like it was. It was just another silly rumour.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Ehvk
Posted 2009-02-25 08:04:17 and read 25602 times.



Quoting Skippy777 (Reply 129):

Its not Confirmed that it are the pilots that are in the cockpit, the only thing said is that there are 3 crewmembers. and that they will take them out after the investigation.

I think this will be done because they have to cute up the cockpit to get the body's out. and they don't wanna lose evidence.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2009-02-25 08:03:51 and read 25579 times.



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 132):
I know some airbus' have a ditching config but how do Boeing detach the engines?

The best...  Smile

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Richierich
Posted 2009-02-25 08:04:35 and read 25379 times.

So far I have read about 200 posts regarding this crash and at least 15 different theories from you guys, comparing it to various other accidents that may or may not be similar.

I know I not immune to making theoretical predictions but a lot of you guys talk without really having any idea. How can you compare this to the B777 incident at LHR? What's the similarity? A crash, broken plane and no fire? There have been dozens of crashes like that over the years....

Yeah it could have been fuel starvation (which doesn't necessarily mean the tanks were empty). It could also have been a stall, bird strike, pilot error, or perhaps a combination of these and/or a dozen other problems and events.

The only thing we can say right now is that the plane crashed into a field near a farm. I'm sure there are injuries, hopeful there are not fatalities but it unfortunately seems likely there were. As to the cause, go ahead: guess all you want. But as more information comes out up to and including the final report months from now, all we can do is guess.

RIP to the victims; peace to their relatives.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-02-25 08:05:28 and read 25330 times.



Quoting Acabgd (Reply 121):
I don't remember a stall inducing vibrations

I can't say I've experienced a stall in an airliner (thankfully), but a stall should come along with some buffeting, which the passengers would definitely feel.

-Mir

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Winfo
Posted 2009-02-25 08:05:51 and read 25292 times.



Quoting Acabgd (Reply 121):

When an a/c enters a deep stall it shakes violently. Stick shaker warns when a stall is imminent.

F

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: KL577
Posted 2009-02-25 08:06:54 and read 25238 times.

Pieter van Vollenhoven, chair of the transport safety board of the Netherlands made an interesting comment:

" There is no long trail visible on the ground, it looks like the airplane lost all its speed and then literally fell from the sky."

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: IliriBDL
Posted 2009-02-25 08:07:00 and read 25070 times.

Sad news. RIP to the crew and passengers that died in the crash.  Sad


As someone else said earlier, what a bad way to start the year for aviation. (three crashes so far)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Ptrjong
Posted 2009-02-25 08:07:52 and read 25182 times.



Quoting Exsr (Reply 131):
Quoting Skippy777 (Reply 129):
Confirmed 3 cabincrew dead in the cockpit.

Three cabin crew dead in the cockpit????????????

Yes, Mr Van Vollenhoven from the Dutch Transport Safety Investigation Board has confirmed 3 crew members are dead in the cockpit and that they are 'the pilots '. The bodies will be recovered later, some crash investigation work is being carried out first.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Flypig687
Posted 2009-02-25 08:07:40 and read 25125 times.



Quoting Asorock (Reply 100):
Stall, where an aircraft loses minimum power/thrust at which it can glide. In effect the plane could have fell shortly after this vibration, but the rather graceful way the plane fell without fire or catastrophic explosions suggests this happened seconds earlier...

A stall is not when an aircraft loses power/thrust to glide. You don't need any power to glide anyway, at least engine created power.

A stall is when the flow detaches and the airfoil/wing losses all Lift. The flow might detach due to losing thrust and not enough air is flowing to create circulation. But stalls usually happen more with to high an AOA where the airfoils are pitched to high for the flow to remain attached. Stall speed will also increase with load factor, weight related and bank angle induced.


My thoughts go out to the victims of this accident, especially the family of the 3 dead crew members

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 08:08:26 and read 25066 times.

RIP to the Three Turkish Airlines Pilots.  tombstone 

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: A3
Posted 2009-02-25 08:11:07 and read 24595 times.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 75):
You have those types of media folks over there too? Wink

Unfortunately they have taken the world  Sad  Angry  Sad  Angry

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Beagleboys
Posted 2009-02-25 08:13:29 and read 24306 times.



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 143):


Quoting Exsr (Reply 131):
Quoting Skippy777 (Reply 129):
Confirmed 3 cabincrew dead in the cockpit.

Three cabin crew dead in the cockpit????????????

Yes, Mr Van Vollenhoven from the Dutch Transport Safety Investigation Board has confirmed 3 crew members are dead in the cockpit and that they are 'the pilots '. The bodies will be recovered later, some crash investigation work is being carried out first.

If they where CABINcrew, thats also the explanation for the crash.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: ENU
Posted 2009-02-25 08:14:03 and read 24141 times.



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 143):
Yes, Mr Van Vollenhoven from the Dutch Transport Safety Investigation Board has confirmed 3 crew members are dead in the cockpit and that they are 'the pilots '. The bodies will be recovered later, some crash investigation work is being carried out first.

Have they entered the cockpit yet to confirm? Otherwise, how did the rescuers 'decide' from the outside that they were dead already and could be left for investigation? Sounds weird to me. They could have smashed a cockpit window to enter...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 08:16:36 and read 23854 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 145):
RIP to the Three Turkish Airlines Pilots.

Officially reported?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 08:17:04 and read 23924 times.



Quoting ENU (Reply 148):
Have they entered the cockpit yet to confirm?

It was said there was a tent around the cockpit for the investigators, the main reason I think they are not moving the bodies is to prevent anyone from accidentally moving levers or switches.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Vfw614
Posted 2009-02-25 08:17:37 and read 24203 times.



Quoting KL577 (Reply 141):
" There is no long trail visible on the ground, it looks like the airplane lost all its speed and then literally fell from the sky."

That's identical to what an eye-witness said very early after the crash on TV. A passenger was also quoted that the were no indications of a problem and the aircraft all of a sudden fell into the field.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 08:18:35 and read 23934 times.



Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 149):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 145):
RIP to the Three Turkish Airlines Pilots.

Officially reported?

Unfortunately yes... Sad At the latest press conference and their bodies are still in the cockpit because of an investigation going on

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: BlueElephant
Posted 2009-02-25 08:18:32 and read 23883 times.

RIP to the Turkish Crew. and Condolences to those involved.

Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 149):
Officially reported?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7909683.stm

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2009-02-25 08:18:44 and read 23835 times.



Quoting Acabgd (Reply 137):
The best...



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 135):
Obviously it is not possible do detatch the engines. Sorry if I made it look like it was



Quoting Exsr (Reply 134):
Oh please - come on.....

I was joking also.... Im obviously fully aware that engines cant be detached. What next, ejector seats for passengers?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 08:21:14 and read 23589 times.



Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 152):
Unfortunately yes...  At the latest press conference and their bodies are still in the cockpit because of an investigation going on



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 153):
RIP to the Turkish Crew. and Condolences to those involved.

Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 149):
Officially reported?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/79...3.stm

That's really sad to hear.
RIP to the TK Crew.

Fatmir

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-02-25 08:21:18 and read 23598 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 150):
It was said there was a tent around the cockpit for the investigators, the main reason I think they are not moving the bodies is to prevent anyone from accidentally moving levers or switches.

This makes a lot of sense. Once they figure out where everything is was positioned, they can get the bodies out.

-Mir

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: TIALATI
Posted 2009-02-25 08:24:49 and read 23194 times.

How come the pilots are dead the cockpit doesn't look damaged from the outside unless the nose wheel has protruded into the cockpit....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: 4holer
Posted 2009-02-25 08:25:32 and read 23224 times.



Quoting ENU (Reply 148):
Have they entered the cockpit yet to confirm? Otherwise, how did the rescuers 'decide' from the outside that they were dead already and could be left for investigation? Sounds weird to me. They could have smashed a cockpit window to enter...

Sir, not to be insensitive.... But you do understand that there are times when a pulse need not be checked to see that a person is deceased, don't you? It's not weird, it's sad.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Climb1
Posted 2009-02-25 08:29:22 and read 22666 times.



Quoting ,reply=110:

I too would love to know what the heck happened to part 2 of this thread that I was trying to read.


3 confirmed crew dead.  Sad
When I first read about this crash I was hoping for another "miracle" where everyone walked away. Sadly this is not the case.
2009 has not had a great start in the world of aviation.  Sad

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 08:29:57 and read 22705 times.



Quoting TIALATI (Reply 157):
How come the pilots are dead the cockpit doesn't look damaged from the outside unless the nose wheel has protruded into the cockpit....

Looks can be deceptive. Sometimes you can have crashes where virtually no damage has been caused but people still die. Its an unfair event. It could be due to the seatbelts, or the force of the impact.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-02-25 08:30:28 and read 22871 times.



Quoting TIALATI (Reply 157):
How come the pilots are dead the cockpit doesn't look damaged from the outside unless the nose wheel has protruded into the cockpit....

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/200.../02/25/world/0225-CRASH_index.html

Look at picture #2. There's a lot of deformation around the cockpit, particularly on the underside.

-Mir

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2009-02-25 08:30:20 and read 22498 times.



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 154):
Im obviously fully aware that engines cant be detached. What next, ejector seats for passengers?

I for one would certainly not object to that at all. But I doubt jettisoning the canopy would be that easy.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: TIALATI
Posted 2009-02-25 08:39:08 and read 21698 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 161):

Quoting TIALATI (Reply 157):
How come the pilots are dead the cockpit doesn't look damaged from the outside unless the nose wheel has protruded into the cockpit....

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/200.../02/25/world/0225-CRASH_index.html

Look at picture #2. There's a lot of deformation around the cockpit, particularly on the underside.

-Mir

Hadn't seen that side of the cockpit before as all the pictures shown here were from the other side . Thanks for your info

TiaLati

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 08:40:55 and read 22073 times.

The impact on the cockpit can be seen in these photos.





Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Khobar
Posted 2009-02-25 08:40:45 and read 21581 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 161):
Look at picture #2. There's a lot of deformation around the cockpit, particularly on the underside.

If the plane impacted tail first as I think I've read, it's possible the nose gear was forced upwards and may have compromised the cockpit area internally.

There appears to be some "unusual" damage to the roof of the forward section - I can't tell if it's just debris sitting on the skin or if it's penetration from inside, but the color is consistent with the insulation we see further back.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 08:44:19 and read 21336 times.

What about TK cockpit crew bodies? Have been pulled-out yet?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 08:47:10 and read 20951 times.



Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 166):
What about TK cockpit crew bodies? Have been pulled-out yet?



No they need to do some investigations first. They have also set up floodlights around the area. Maybe they are going to be removed at night with screens to block any views from media. I sure hope that they do . The area needs to be blocked from view.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Aerobalance
Posted 2009-02-25 08:51:19 and read 20577 times.

This aircraft experienced a lot of force when impacting the ground, thus the people onboard were subjected to high levels of force. I am surprised, and thankful, that more people were not killed. RIP to all of the deceased.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Winterapfel
Posted 2009-02-25 08:52:54 and read 20459 times.

Pieter van Vollenhoven (chairman of the dutch transportation safetyboard) mentioned that the bodies haven't been removed yet because the cockpit needs to be taken apart to do so (not his exact words, but my translation gets the message across)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Max777geek
Posted 2009-02-25 08:53:54 and read 20396 times.



Quoting ENU (Reply 148):
They could have smashed a cockpit window to enter...

who said they didn't enter from the door ? I read too much speculation here.

as I said a while ago, if they were alive we'd been hearing already.

The first words on what happened comes from the cockpit crew.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Petertenthije
Posted 2009-02-25 08:53:58 and read 20521 times.



Quoting Khobar (Reply 165):
If the plane impacted tail first as I think I've read

Seen an aerial shot of the crashsite at NOS news. That shot confirmed that the tail hit first. The tailwing is detached from the plane and lying roughly 2 plane-lengths behind the rest of the wreck. The tail itself and (most of?) the rear fuselage is with the rest of the wreckage. From what I could see from the (low-res) image there was not a large trail behind the tailwing and the plane. This would confirm an eye-witness's account describing the plane bounced up and then "fell from the sky" almost vertically.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 08:56:01 and read 20645 times.




Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: 757GB
Posted 2009-02-25 08:55:38 and read 20285 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 123):
Dutch reporters are actually speculating that the position of the RUNWAY is the cause of the accident!

Well we can't really disagree with that one can we?
If the runway had been closer the plane would have landed...  Yeah sure

My condolences to the families and members of the forum who knew the victims. May they all rest in peace.

This is terrible in so many ways. The dead. The injured, many of them gravely. The sheer terror lived even by those who survived without a scratch. There are wounds you cannot see but that are carried forever.

On top of all that, the agony of trying to find out if a loved one is alive or not (5 dead at first, then no fatalities, then 7, then none, then 9).

My day is only half way over but it has been a terrible one already.
My thoughts and prayers for everyone involved.

GB

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 08:56:18 and read 20187 times.

THY updated passenger's list on their website, so I will just copy and paste it here
Crew List
Cockpit
1 Hasan Tahsin ARISAN
2 Olgay ÖZGÜR
3 Murat SEZER

Cabin
1 Figen EREN
2 Özden PERİHAN
3 Ulvi Murat ESKİN
4 Yasemin VURAL

Passenger List
1 AHMADZAI ENAYAT
2 AKBAS EROL ZAFER
3 AKHLAGHM DAVOOD
4 ALARIACH HAJAR
5 ALARIACH JIHAD
6 ALBOSTAN ERDEM RECEP
7 ALBOSTAN BUSRA
8 ALBOSTAN SANIYE
9 ALKAN EMRE
10 ANICHUKW GEORGE
11 ARDA SELCUK
12 ARIKAN AHMET
13 ARMAN NECATI
14 ARSLAN HK
15 ARSLANKU M
16 ASAL MUSTAFA
17 ATMAN MUSTAFA
18 AYDIN CANTURK
19 BAHCECIOGLU MUSTAFA
20 BARIS SEFER
21 BASLILAR OSMAN BEDRI
22 BASSO LUCIO
23 BAYAT UGUR
24 BERISHA AHMED
25 BOOTS PATRICK
26 CEBI FERIHA
27 CESUR MUHSIN
28 CHAMROUK M
29 CHEN SHIHYI
30 CROGNALE FRED
31 DAGASAN VOLKAN
32 DEKNECHT R
33 DEMIR KENAN
34 DEMIR VEDAT
35 DEMIR HASRET
36 DEWIT SIPKE
37 DUMAN OZAN
38 DUYVESTE RONALD
39 EKE KENAN
40 EKINCI YUSUF
41 ER CUNEYD
42 EROZER RAMA CENK
43 GEIJTEMALUCIA
44 GIMPEL FREDERIK
45 GIMPELVE GERARDA
46 GOCMUS MURAT
47 GOZUKARA MEHMET
48 GUCUYENEI ILHAN
49 GULER KEKLIK
50 GUMUS MUSTAFA
51 HEIJLOO HENK
52 HEMMER MICHAELT
53 HOLLE C
54 ICGOREN BULENT
55 ICGOREN MERT
56 IDRIS S
57 INAN BORA
58 IZ RAMAZAN
59 KABA DICLE
60 KALAN TUGBA
61 KALANSUN SEVGI
62 KALANTUR DONDU
63 KAYA CAGRI
64 KAYA MAYA NIL
65 KAYA ORHAN
66 KAYA YURDANUR
67 KAYA BEKIR
68 KOMUT MUSTAFA
69 KORAL FERRUH
70 KUCUKER ASLIHAN
71 KUCUKER SEREF
72 LABEIJ JACOBUS
73 LABEIJLO LISA
74 LABEIJLO SOFIA
75 LEDFORD RONALDC
76 LORD SUSAN
77 MEIRING W
78 MERMER MUSTAFA
79 MERT CEM
80 MIR SABINA
81 MIR SHAHID
82 MIRZAEIK MOHAMMAD
83 MOENNASI KEWLAWATIE
84 MUSAJEVA RANA
85 MUTLUCAN ST
86 OROUMAND ZAHRA
87 OVERAL C
88 OZCAN KAMILE BANU
89 OZTURK KENAN
90 PEHLIVAN RAMAZAN
91 PEYNIRCI AHMET
92 RADPARVA YOUSHA
93 RICHEY RONALDA
94 ROOVERS MARIA
95 SALMAN JOHN
96 SCHINKEL JACOBUS
97 SEN AHMET
98 STEENOVE IRIS
99 STEENOVE PETRUS
100 STILIJAN ATANAS
101 SULAIMAN AHMAD
102 SUMER HASAN HUSEYIN
103 TAS NURI
104 TEKGOZ AHMET
105 THIJSSEN LINDA
106 TIRMAZI SAFDARALI
107 TUFAN YASAR
108 UNAL ONUR
109 UZEL KEREM
110 VANDALSU OSCAR
111 VANDERHA L
112 VANHARBE LEENTJE
113 VANSPRON MARINUS
114 VANTIL JANNEKE
115 VERCAN HAKAN
116 WILSON RICKYE
117 WITZEL JH
118 WITZELTA GULCAN
119 YANGO SUSAN
120 YARDIM ALI
121 YASAR MUSTAFA KEMAL
122 YILDIRIM GOKMEN
123 YILDIRIM GULSEN
124 YILDIRIM YAVUZ
125 YILDIRIM ALI
126 YILDIZ SALIH

http://www.thy.com/DarkSiteEN/passenger_list.aspx

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Climb1
Posted 2009-02-25 08:58:54 and read 20098 times.

Quoting Climb1 (Reply 159):

Apologies for quoting the wrong post somehow earlier on.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 165):

Looking at this side profile pic taken of this 738 a while back, you can get an idea of the location of the landing gear in relation to the aft of the cockpit. Also bearing in mind the apparent force of the crash what you say is not surprising.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Turki...Airlines/Boeing-737-8F2/1221044/L/

My    are with the familes of those involved on this tragic day.



[Edited 2009-02-25 09:05:33]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 09:01:16 and read 19963 times.



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 154):
I was joking also

You kinda had me there, I was like no way!


--

Next press conference is scheduled for 1915LT (UTC +1) I will keep you up to date.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-02-25 09:02:59 and read 19870 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 72):
no.....the a/c took off with 12,200 kgs of fuel...trip fuel was 8100 kgs....

fuel was not an issue

That's a remarkable assumption, especially for a pilot to make. Good thing the investigators will be looking at ALL possibilities.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 109):
i dont get it...they're in uniform, they were in the deck...what do u mean you need a pax list to confirm, why won't they tell us?!

Think about it. I mean really.

They have published the names now, and we understand you may know some of them, and that is unfortunate.
But despite the lightning speed of internet news sharing, thankfully there are some old-fashioned restraints still placed upon such matters. No matter your association with anyone involved, you won't be told publicly before next-of-kin if the authorities are doing their jobs.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 09:08:23 and read 19374 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 176):
Next press conference is scheduled for 1915LT (UTC +1) I will keep you up to date.

Does Dutch medias reports any up-to-date news?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 09:09:15 and read 19437 times.

CNN said a passenger a Businessman said passengers were screaming just before they hit and then the next thing he passed out and woke up in hospital.

The Pilot is Ex Air Force and highly respected and trained.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Winterapfel
Posted 2009-02-25 09:11:58 and read 19159 times.

As far as there where still any doubts: NOS just showed both engines being just a couple of dozens of meters away from the other remains of the plain.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: SQ_EK_freak
Posted 2009-02-25 09:19:25 and read 18420 times.

Is there any word on the cabin crew?? It seems from the BBC article that they all made it out alive, considering that they mentioned "3 of the dead are crew" and that their bodies have been left in the cockpit for investigation - so the three mentioned are obviously flight deck crew. But without clear indication at this point I'm hesitant to make any assumptions...the rear galley seems to have taken a really really bad hit from what I can see of those close ups. Hoping all are okay, and RIP to all those who lost their lives in the crash!  Sad

pilotaydin, so sorry for your loss, I'm sure it's really hard to deal with situations like this especially when it's your fellow crew involved. I couldn't imagine it, and I've been lucky thus far in my short career as crew having not had to deal with any incidents within my company, but my thoughts are prayers are with you as well.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: AustrianZRH
Posted 2009-02-25 09:21:44 and read 18220 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 108):


Quoting AustrianZRH,reply=74:

In case of a double engine failure, the pilot flying wouldn't pull up the nose until the aircraft stalls but rather put down the nose and try to glide it to the ground. A (gliding) belly landing would probably not have caused the damage seen here.

Not at the altitude they were at, putting the nose down would cause even more of a disaster.

Wouldn't they keep the nose down keeping speed at V_{best glide} until they are some 10 to 30 feet above ground, then pull up and flare trying to land with a rather moderate pitch up (of course, they wouldn't fly the plane nose down into the ground)? Actually a genuine question. By the way, what altitude would the plane have had at that position during a normal approach?

Quoting PW100 (Reply 60):
PW100



Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 74):
AustrianZRH

Sorry PW, have overlooked you have stated the same earlier. Didn't want to steal your theory  Smile.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 09:23:01 and read 18328 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 177):
That's a remarkable assumption, especially for a pilot to make. Good thing the investigators will be looking at ALL possibilities.

it's not an assumption, the a/c took off ontime from IST and arrived in the terminal area on time, what would u know i just work and fly for the airline for many years now  Smile

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Emre767
Posted 2009-02-25 09:25:32 and read 17952 times.

Dear Aydın and Kanat, basiniz sagolsun.

You feel like you will never witness such a thing when you hear the news, saying a plane crashes in a country far far away. But, it is so cruel and real when it happens to your beloveds, or near just you. Nothing to say anymore.

I hope the cause will be revelead soon and a similar crash won't happen again.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Sandyb123
Posted 2009-02-25 09:25:45 and read 17909 times.



Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 182):
By the way, what altitude would the plane have had at that position during a normal approach?

About 300 foot depending on a number of variables such as wind, weight, length of runway etc. Not much margin for error should something go wrong.

SAndyb123

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Logos
Posted 2009-02-25 09:26:23 and read 17756 times.

A sad day indeed.

I have to admit that I'm not that familiar with AMS and had no idea that 18R was so far removed from the rest of the airport. For those of you familiar with the location of the crash site, did the plane come down on the other side of the A200 or in the area between A9 and the A200? Thanks in advance.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...472&spn=0.074104,0.153809&t=h&z=13

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: RobertNL070
Posted 2009-02-25 09:26:48 and read 17682 times.

Thoughts and prayers for those stricken by this awful incident.

Robert

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Airbuske
Posted 2009-02-25 09:29:30 and read 17547 times.

Terrible news. Sincerest condolences to all those affected.

How many 737NG crashes does this make it now?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 09:31:30 and read 17495 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 183):
it's not an assumption, the a/c took off ontime from IST and arrived in the terminal area on time, what would u know i just work and fly for the airline for many years now

Pilotaydin you are highly respected and knowledgeable . Your insight and information is highly regarded and needed in this current situation.

I would be grateful among many many others if you would continue to keep us updated and also with your thoughts and personal experiences.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CYLW
Posted 2009-02-25 09:31:34 and read 17416 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 183):

it's not an assumption, the a/c took off ontime from IST and arrived in the terminal area on time, what would u know i just work and fly for the airline for many years now

Sorry for your loss, but I dont think anything can be ruled out yet. Aircraft can lose fuel through other ways than just burning it in the engines.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 09:34:19 and read 17363 times.



Quoting CYLW (Reply 190):
Sorry for your loss, but I dont think anything can be ruled out yet. Aircraft can lose fuel through other ways than just burning it in the engines.

yes and 3 pilots in the cockpit would realize this, inform ATC, inform the company through ACARS and not duck down until they went dry 500 m from the runway...

and if the tanks did run dry....ill shake my head for a long long long time...but right now i hav trouble believing this...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: CYLW
Posted 2009-02-25 09:36:44 and read 16849 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 191):

yes and 3 pilots in the cockpit would realize this, inform ATC, inform the company through ACARS and not duck down until they went dry 500 m from the runway...

and if the tanks did run dry....ill shake my head for a long long long time...but right now i hav trouble believing this...

Yes, I agree with you. It would be hard to believe. Time will tell I guess.

Again, sorry for your loss.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Admford
Posted 2009-02-25 09:38:24 and read 16743 times.

Hmmm... I've been watching the news reports for most of the day now, and I've started to developed a kind of a theory on how the crash happened, though I'm not a 100% sure.

Is it possible that an autopilot can mistake the location of the runway and think it begins earlier? If so, that could in part explain the plane coming in lower and slower than most other aircraft normally do for that runway.

It's possible that afterword's, a ground impact warning system might have sounded and the pilot pulled back on the stick, turning off the autopilot. In landing procedures, the autopilot should also control the autothrottle of the plane. If the autopilot was disengaged, is it possible that the autothrottle would also be disengaged at the same time? If so, then the pilots could have forgotten that the computer wasn't controlling the throttle when they tried to climb.

A stall would naturally happen if the pilots didn't level off fast enough, and with the already slow speed it was at, the flight envelope might have been small. The plane, with most of it's forward energy bled off, would have literally belly-flopped on the ground. Front wheel digging in first, breaking the front part of the fuselage as seen. Plane would have stopped immediately then, letting the rest of the fuselage take the rest of the impact. Tail would have broken off due to the weight and force of the impact.

I understand that the pilot was an expert, but he could have been training a less experianced pilot for the 737-800 at the same time (it was part of his job). The conditions seem to have been IFR (from what I could tell through the AeroWeather app on my iPhone).

I know these are only assumptions until a full investigation gives some answers to this. But a stall at extremely low altitude can unnerve almost anyone.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-02-25 09:41:09 and read 16551 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 183):
it's not an assumption, the a/c took off ontime from IST and arrived in the terminal area on time, what would u know i just work and fly for the airline for many years now

You are assuming all the fuel was loaded as indicated. It has happened in the past where a mistake was made and too little fuel was loaded. So we can't assume that just because the trip was a normal length, there was fuel left. All we can say is that there SHOULD have been fuel left...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: AndrewUber
Posted 2009-02-25 09:42:04 and read 16382 times.



Quoting Airbuske (Reply 188):
How many 737NG crashes does this make it now?

We were just discussing this in the office, I believe this is the 4th:

Kenya 738 crashed in a mangrove forest
GOL 738 collided with a Legacy
China 738 fire
Turkish 738 at AMS

Wasn't there a 736 written off in a landing accident a couple years ago?

Drew

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2009-02-25 09:45:24 and read 16131 times.

I'd just like to add my condolences to those already made; I'd also like to offer my sincere sympathies to PilotAydin and all our TK friends on this forum, who have lost valued friends and colleagues.

I'd like to focus attention on the airline's procedures in a situation like this; presumably TK will have a procedures manual, listing duties of station personnel and people at the airline's HQ in a situation like this, covering things like:

- setting up telephone lines in Turkey and the destination airport for concerned relatives?
- Taking care of survivors
- informing the civil aviation authority and its accident investigators
- obtaining aircraft and crew records from relevant departments?
- Media information - passenger lists, crew info, etc

Any other issues that would be covered in the initial 6-12 hours, and beyond?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-02-25 09:45:27 and read 16241 times.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 183):
it's not an assumption, the a/c took off ontime from IST and arrived in the terminal area on time, what would u know i just work and fly for the airline for many years now

Planes can land on time and burn more fuel than planned. Two Air Transat A330 pilots were on schedule over the Atlantic and were as surprised as anybody when the fuel lights illuminated. Same can be said for a pair of Air Canada B767 pilots.

Stuff happens. It may not be a fuel issue at all, but the point is you don't know that yet. Employment at the accident airline does not make you more qualified to speculate, as my own experience does not make me less qualified to state that speculation and wild assumptions are unnecessary.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 191):
and if the tanks did run dry....ill shake my head for a long long long time...but right now i hav trouble believing this...

So we can now agree that it is a possibility until it has been ruled out. Good.

[Edited 2009-02-25 09:47:36]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Spitfire
Posted 2009-02-25 09:47:01 and read 16037 times.

Hey guys, do you know that there are FUEL GAUGES in the cockpit, and that those instruments are looked at during the flight ?????????????

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2009-02-25 09:48:49 and read 15829 times.



Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 195):
Wasn't there a 736 written off in a landing accident a couple years ago?

That was an Air Algerie 736, at (I think) Seville, but I'm not sure if it was written off?

Also, don't forget the FR 738 at CIA, following the birdstrike last November; EI-DYG was confirmed as a total loss.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 09:51:25 and read 15964 times.

as far as cabin crew, i know 3/4 of them got out, don't know about the last person  Sad

i do know the 3 pilots are gone...  Sad

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2009-02-25 09:53:55 and read 15708 times.

Please continue this discussion in the next installment of this topic which may be found here:

TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4

This thread is now archived.


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