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Topic: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2009-02-25 09:52:20 and read 41554 times.

This is part 4 of the discussion pertaining to the fatal crash of Turkish Airlines flight TK1951 at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport on Wednesday morning local time.

Please continue the discussion here. The previous installments may be found here:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: CARST
Posted 2009-02-25 10:00:15 and read 41517 times.

Hi everyone, too bad to read about another crash with fatalities, seems to be not a good time for the airlines right now...


I just came from work and i am too tired to read all threads about the crash, i just read the 2nd half of thread 3.

Here are 17 quite good pictures of the crash, don't know if they were posted already (News in German):
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/artic...ecksmaschine-zu-wenig-Kerosin.html


But nevertheless the pics are a good start for thread 4 and show all the damage to the aircraft...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Vfw614
Posted 2009-02-25 10:06:25 and read 41258 times.

Passport-style pictures of the cockpit crew:.

http://static.rp-online.de/layout/fo...Plane_Crash_IST10449a5821e216e.jpg

As far as the cabin crew is concerned - I suppose they were severly injured as passengers are quoted that no cabin crew was coordinating the emergency evacuation after the impact.

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:17:49]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Airxliban
Posted 2009-02-25 10:11:27 and read 41062 times.

I would just like to add my condolences those that have already been mentioned - for the families and friends of the deceased. Deepest sympathies to them as well as to our TK colleagues on this forum.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-02-25 10:12:02 and read 40996 times.



Quoting Admford (Reply 193):
Is it possible that an autopilot can mistake the location of the runway and think it begins earlier? If so, that could in part explain the plane coming in lower and slower than most other aircraft normally do for that runway.

It is possible (though highly unlikely) for the FMC to be inaccurate. But the aircraft was on an ILS approach, using ground-based naviagation aids (and the autopilot was following those), so assuming that the navaids were correct, they would have taken the airplane all the way to the runway. And no other aircraft reported problems with the navaid signal.

Quoting Spitfire (Reply 198):
Hey guys, do you know that there are FUEL GAUGES in the cockpit, and that those instruments are looked at during the flight ?????????????

Do we know that they were accurate? Sure they're supposed to be looked at during the flight, but do we know that they were looked at during the flight? There are a lot of unknowns here, and they will all be investigated in due time.

-Mir

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Speedmarque
Posted 2009-02-25 10:16:01 and read 40817 times.

It's just dawned on me that it looks like the damage above the flight deck is due to the nose gear strut!

Now that was a hard landing if true.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Emrecan
Posted 2009-02-25 10:18:20 and read 40772 times.

The worst way to start a day  
RIP for all the victims...

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:50:09]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2009-02-25 10:22:30 and read 40494 times.

This is very tragic indeed. My condolences to all who lost loved ones in this crash and to everybody at Turkish Airlines. May those who lost their lives rest in peace.

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Spitfire
Posted 2009-02-25 10:24:13 and read 40414 times.

As a pilot in command I won't surely never look at my fuel gauges during a 3 hours flight. Never crosscheck those figures with the one I have on the 'flight planning papers', and of course never calculate the extra fuel I have on board just before the approach phase... just to know how much holding time I have before going to diversion ....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 10:25:16 and read 40404 times.

So anyone else thinks it can be a severe birdstrike, are they any birds in the area?
Sounds more likely than fuelstarvation?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Whaley
Posted 2009-02-25 10:26:51 and read 40349 times.

According to the witness who had entered the plane just after the crash, two survivors complained about bad back problems, which also indicates a very hard 'landing'.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2009-02-25 10:26:53 and read 40360 times.

http://www.nrc.nl/redactie/foto/vliegtuigongeluk/soundslider.swf

Pic 3 shows the position of the horizontal stabilisers relative to the plane. Pic 10 shows a large crack in the empennage from where the leading edge of the hor stabs would have been, up to the beginning of the tail fin. Violent impact tail down seems extremely likely, as already noted. The tailfin could easily have detached with the hor stabs, not that it would have made any difference.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Draigonair
Posted 2009-02-25 10:28:16 and read 40225 times.

I live North of the airport and well there is not a unusual activity of large amounts of birds...Any idea what planes landed before?? Wake turbulence may play a role?

Nick

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 10:28:43 and read 40229 times.

There are birds in the area yes, I might add there can be quite a lot.. But lets wait for the results (it can be a long wait)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: TheSonntag
Posted 2009-02-25 10:29:05 and read 40226 times.

Why don't we all wait whether the flight recorder will confirm fuel starvation or not...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 10:35:33 and read 39931 times.



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 2):
Passport-style pictures of the cockpit crew:.

Tragic , RIP  tombstone 

At least there was no fire and hopefully this will aid the investigators to try work out what happened.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Spitfire
Posted 2009-02-25 10:36:31 and read 39834 times.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 14):
Why don't we all wait whether the flight recorder will confirm fuel starvation or not...

That's a very good idea (one of the best I've read here today !)

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:38:34]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Flanders
Posted 2009-02-25 10:38:24 and read 39822 times.

My prayers go to the victims and their families.

This is one weird crash...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Emrecan
Posted 2009-02-25 10:38:19 and read 39757 times.

http://www.airporthaber.com/v3/readnews.php?newid=11457

According to this site, the aircraft was loaded around 9,6 tones of fuel at IST. Also it is told that on IST-AMS route usually the planes are loaded between 7-9 tones of fuel.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 10:39:19 and read 39746 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 18):

Because that is HIS opinion (not nessecarily mine)

News here is reporting that both engines were "shut down prior to landing"
There isnt a SPOT of evidence to support that statement! What is wrong with the media!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Cmoltay
Posted 2009-02-25 10:39:19 and read 39751 times.

"One survivor has told on the Turkish evening news that he saw black smoke out from one of the engines and the engine departed the plane and flew forward..."  Confused

Realising this is a most unreliable account and may have happened after the plane hit the ground or could purely be the imagination of the witness, I want to ask, if what he has told is true, would an engine flying forward point to an airborne reverser deployment? Would that be possible?

Regards,

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 10:44:59 and read 39461 times.



Quoting Cmoltay (Reply 22):
One survivor has told on the Turkish evening news that he saw black smoke out from one of the engines and the engine departed the plane and flew forward..."

still, if an engine left the wing...no problems...doesn't explain the low speed state...the horizontal stab is about 150-200 meters back from the fuselage, looks like a very very slow speed drop/impact...
the flaps are at 40, which suggests the approach was indeed dual engine...as all other checklists require flaps 15 on single engine

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Max777geek
Posted 2009-02-25 10:46:20 and read 39293 times.

Quote:
You are assuming all the fuel was loaded as indicated. It has happened in the past where a mistake was made and too little fuel was loaded.

If fuel was the issue, that wasn't dropping down like it did. It was giving problem before of it.

And if it was beginning there to have fuel problem, Im not sure that it would make to the airport,
but that wasn't going to come down like it did.

I can assume it's been a series of concurrent causes, not just one. The airplane stalled, lost trust, and came down nose up, too close to the rwy treshold (and possibly obstacles) and too low - as already said - for some corrective actions to be taken effectively.

This doesn't sound at all as a fuel issue to me... (I mean fuel presence or qty, not fuel starvation/contamination/icing/etc) An expert pilot can tell if the autopilot was still engaged at the time, at a power loss it would have been trying to pull up instead of .. can't say the english term, anyway "push down" to gain airspeed. Anyhow if they stalled - speed was too low. Maybe too low above flight idle ? Im sure this will come out very soon.

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:47:39]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 10:47:49 and read 39298 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 18):
Do you see anywhere in my posts, where i claim to be a spokesman for my airline? no...you don't so why even bother say something really really pointless?

I think that the point that he's trying to make is that although it's true that you've never CLAIMED to be an official spokesperson for your airline, your comments might be PERCEIVED by some as "official" since you work for the airline, even though they're just your personal opinions and/or beliefs. Many companies (and I certainly can't say with respect to yours) have policies concerning employee comments on such matters, and some of them can be rather Draconian with respect to infractions to whatever company policy is in place.

Check six!  Wink

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Whaley
Posted 2009-02-25 10:48:52 and read 42469 times.

Dutch press conference:
confirmed that all victims including crew and passengers are taken out of the aircraft
there will be no official confirmation of victims' identities yet.
still talking about 9 deaths although on twitter I read of a tenth who died at the AMC hospital.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 10:49:44 and read 42180 times.



Quoting Cmoltay (Reply 22):
One survivor has told on the Turkish evening news that he saw black smoke out from one of the engines and the engine departed the plane and flew forward..

Hmm I guess its not impossible .

-----------------

New conference in AMS now.

Tomorrow they will be able to give more details of nationalities etc.. The priority will be to make sure all the families are notified.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: N83SF
Posted 2009-02-25 10:50:20 and read 42356 times.

My condolences to those affected by this crash. Seeing as this is an American made airplane, does anybody know if the NTSB is going to be assisting in the investigation?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 10:50:45 and read 42326 times.

Press conference:

Over 750 people were working on the crash.

All people have been removed from the AC.

Edit: I see Whaley beat me to it with the news.

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:52:21]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Cmoltay
Posted 2009-02-25 10:51:41 and read 42196 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 23):
still, if an engine left the wing...no problems...doesn't explain the low speed state...the horizontal stab is about 150-200 meters back from the fuselage, looks like a very very slow speed drop/impact...
the flaps are at 40, which suggests the approach was indeed dual engine...as all other checklists require flaps 15 on single engine

I was meaning to ask if this could be one of the by-results of a certain failure which put the aircraft in the state it was. Just to get some idea about the basics of airplane systems.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 10:52:28 and read 42353 times.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 25):
I think that the point that he's trying to make is that although it's true that you've never CLAIMED to be an official spokesperson for your airline, your comments might be PERCEIVED by some as "official" since you work for the airline, even though they're just your personal opinions and/or beliefs. Many companies (and I certainly can't say with respect to yours) have policies concerning employee comments on such matters, and some of them can be rather Draconian with respect to infractions to whatever company policy is in place.

well then, so much for aviation enthusiast website...if people on here were truely fans of aviation, we wouldn't even bother talk about this crap...
so ill stop posting...seeing as people have other agendas...
ill watch the 15 year olds go at their arm chairing...
my company has a policy where you don't make any statements to the MEDIA and TV, A.net is just a posting forum that has no officiality whatsoever...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 10:53:17 and read 42085 times.

Media asked was this a test flight with the 3rd pilot. The police said they cant comment on that .

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 10:52:56 and read 42044 times.



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 13):
There are birds in the area yes, I might add there can be quite a lot.. But lets wait for the results (it can be a long wait)

OK, dare to guess what kind, seagulls, swane or goose? Do they flock onto farmland to look for food like worms?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 10:53:11 and read 42509 times.



Quoting N83SF (Reply 28):
My condolences to those affected by this crash. Seeing as this is an American made airplane, does anybody know if the NTSB is going to be assisting in the investigation?

Yes, they will. SOP...


NTSB ADVISORY

************************************************************



National Transportation Safety Board

Washington, DC 20594





February 25, 2009

************************************************************

NTSB SENDS TEAM TO AMSTERDAM TO ASSIST WITH 737 AIRCRAFT

ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION



************************************************************



The National Transportation Safety Board is sending a team

of investigators to Amsterdam, the Netherlands, to assist in

the investigation of a B-737-800 (T-CJGE) Turkish Airlines

flight 1951 that crashed short of the runway on approach.

Multiple fatalities and injuries have been reported.



NTSB Acting Chairman Mark V. Rosenker has designated senior

air safety investigator Joe Sedor as the U.S. Accredited

Representative. He will be joined by three other NTSB

investigators. The U.S. team will also include technical

advisors from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA),

Boeing and General Electric.



Information on the progress of the investigation will be

released by the Dutch Safety Board. The agency's phone

number in the Netherlands is (31)70 333 7000, the agency’s

website is www.safetyboard.nl and the email address is

aviation@safetyboard.nl.



Media contact: Keith Holloway 202-314-6100

hollowk@ntsb.gov

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: AndrewUber
Posted 2009-02-25 10:57:21 and read 41737 times.

It is bizarre how the winglets are both chopped in half. Unless this is due to severe downward force on impact (which I would have thought would break the winglet further down), what could have hit them?

RIP to all who died

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-02-25 10:58:23 and read 41546 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 34):

there are a lot of birds, Im no expert but did spent some time with the AMS Bird control. There are a lot of small birds as well, Ducks, Blackbirds, and so on.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 10:59:54 and read 41593 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 31):
well then, so much for aviation enthusiast website...if people on here were truely fans of aviation, we wouldn't even bother talk about this crap...



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 31):
my company has a policy where you don't make any statements to the MEDIA and TV, A.net is just a posting forum that has no officiality whatsoever...

I'm sorry if that's your reaction (and it's obviously your choice or not), but Anet's "officiality" or not, what you're dealing with here is REALITY and the PERCEPTION of reality. We all know that journos lurk on PPRUNE as well as on this site, and via use of terms like "reportedly" and others, Voila'!, you could easily now be deemed a quasi-offical spokesperson for the airline.

As I said previously, check six! (or, in other words, just CYA...)  Wink

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-02-25 11:00:42 and read 41371 times.



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 24):
If fuel was the issue, that wasn't dropping down like it did. It was giving problem before of it.

I don't disagree at all. I was merely commenting on the claim that because the flight was not delayed, there had to be enough fuel and that there have been instances of planes crashing because the pilots only noticed this when it was too late.

But I highly doubt this to be the case, because if the TK pilots were given low fuel warnings, there are plenty of airports they could have diverted to on the way to AMS.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: DeltaWings
Posted 2009-02-25 11:01:02 and read 41397 times.

another one of these "plunging short of runway" accidents, just a couple of weeks ofter the Colgan Air incident...weired

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Jcf5002
Posted 2009-02-25 11:03:03 and read 41217 times.

Not sure if it's been discussed yet, but does anyone have any idea why both winglet tips snapped off at a similar location? The g-forces of impact were probably very severe, (though the pictures seem to indicate the forward fuselage crumpled from the nose digging into the soft dirt) but I don't really see how the vertical loading would snap a vertical surface.

My condolences to those who lost their lives in this unfortunate incident.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Robcol99
Posted 2009-02-25 11:03:54 and read 41368 times.

With regards to fuel starvation,
At least we heard three survivors say the same thing on various Turkish TV this afternoon.

They were in final approach, all of a sudden they felt a big drop, and they hear the engines rumbling to almost full power.

One survivor thought that they were going to do a GA with that much engine power, but he said then the plane landed on the mud. Now an engine cannot create that noise without fuel right.

One of them said that he thought that they just had a bad landing at the moment of the impact.

Say they ran out of fuel earlier in the descent. Each survivor says everything was normal until
impact. One specifically said that he was watching the flight info on the overhead displays, which means there still was power generated, which means there was fuel flow to the engines.

The flaps are set to 40. One normally would go to flap 40 setting around 1000-1500 ft. Thus, I suspect both engines were running normally until that last 1000 ft. I think these pilots could have glided the plane down even if there was full loss of power.

The drop. And a slow impact. So unexpected loss of airspeed. That's where we should
capitalize on, if you want to continue speculating.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 11:05:11 and read 41319 times.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 39):
I'm sorry if that's your reaction (and it's obviously your choice or not), but Anet's "officiality" or not, what you're dealing with here is REALITY and the PERCEPTION of reality. We all know that journos lurk on PPRUNE as well as on this site, and via use of terms like "reportedly" and others, Voila'!, you could easily now be deemed a quasi-offical spokesperson for the airline.

point taken...BUT....I make the points that everyone else makes on here...and if a journalist wants to manipulate that...he'd have to find a damn detailed report, because i doubt he can turn 1-2 of my sentences into something that NO ONE ELSE would ever have thought of...every theory is already out there...now had i been the only person who saw it happen or survived, then yeah things would be different...
people that talk to the media give up their name and some information for credit...
as far as other people on here are concerned how do you know im not posing as someone else...
it's all very americanized movie stuff you are talking about...we're kinda more down to earth and chilled about these things in the mid east  Wink

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Gorgos
Posted 2009-02-25 11:07:54 and read 40933 times.

Hey Pilotaydin,

Great to have you on this site and reading your interesting posts. Keep up the good work!

J

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-02-25 11:09:29 and read 40742 times.



Quoting Robcol99 (Reply 45):
One survivor thought that they were going to do a GA with that much engine power, but he said then the plane landed on the mud. Now an engine cannot create that noise without fuel right.

I have no data to the contrary, but I should remind everyone that non-aviation eyewitnesses are not always reliable.

Quoting Robcol99 (Reply 45):
The flaps are set to 40. One normally would go to flap 40 setting around 1000-1500 ft.

Where did this come from. I am not saying that it is wrong, but a normal flaps setting for landing on the 737 is 30. 40 can be used, but usually only for shorter runways, which isn't a problem at AMS.

I am not a local, but how susceptible is AMS to windshear? The descriptions of engines going to TOGA power before impact makes sense if windshear was a problem. Of course, we will know more once the tapes are analyzed.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 11:11:34 and read 40780 times.

Richard Quest now reporting on CNN. He is giving www.twitter.com a plug and telling people what things and quotes have been posted on there. Also to discuss the role the internet played in this reporting !!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 11:11:12 and read 40536 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 46):
it's all very americanized movie stuff you are talking about...we're kinda more down to earth and chilled about these things in the mid east

Hope so!  Wink

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 11:11:47 and read 40633 times.



Quoting Robcol99 (Reply 45):
With regards to fuel starvation,
At least we heard three survivors say the same thing on various Turkish TV this afternoon.

They were in final approach, all of a sudden they felt a big drop, and they hear the engines rumbling to almost full power.

One survivor thought that they were going to do a GA with that much engine power, but he said then the plane landed on the mud. Now an engine cannot create that noise without fuel right.

One of them said that he thought that they just had a bad landing at the moment of the impact.

Say they ran out of fuel earlier in the descent. Each survivor says everything was normal until
impact. One specifically said that he was watching the flight info on the overhead displays, which means there still was power generated, which means there was fuel flow to the engines.

The flaps are set to 40. One normally would go to flap 40 setting around 1000-1500 ft. Thus, I suspect both engines were running normally until that last 1000 ft. I think these pilots could have glided the plane down even if there was full loss of power.

The drop. And a slow impact. So unexpected loss of airspeed. That's where we should
capitalize on, if you want to continue speculating.

Yes, I agree, fuelstarvation seem unlikely, my first guess would be birdstrike, second guess would be accidental autoreverse like the Lauda Air one.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Robcol99
Posted 2009-02-25 11:16:17 and read 39799 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
I have no data to the contrary, but I should remind everyone that non-aviation eyewitnesses are not always reliable.

Again, they are the survivors of the crash, not just eyewitnesses. There was a discussion here about fuel starvation, but numerous people saying that they hear engines getting more power kind of dismisses that theory.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
Where did this come from. I am not saying that it is wrong, but a normal flaps setting for landing on the 737 is 30. 40 can be used, but usually only for shorter runways, which isn't a problem at AMS.

Please look at the pictures. Pilotaydın can verify or correct me. The flaps are set to either 30 or 40, but they can bee seen well in landing configuration. One usually does not set that until you are in final.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Gorgos
Posted 2009-02-25 11:17:07 and read 39963 times.

Click to play, interesting aerial video. One can see the large area with debris.

http://www.nos.nl/nosjournaal/artike...9_crash_schiphol_luchtbeelden.html

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 11:17:57 and read 39982 times.



Quoting Robcol99 (Reply 55):
Please look at the pictures. Pilotaydın can verify or correct me. The flaps are set to either 30 or 40, but they can bee seen well in landing configuration. One usually does not set that until you are in final.

That's right they're in the landing config sir

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 11:18:13 and read 40081 times.







Note the location of the horizontal stabelizer . . .
Click here for footage.

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: 4holer
Posted 2009-02-25 11:20:00 and read 39678 times.



Quoting Commander_Rabb (Reply 47):
True. But when that person "claims" to be a Pilot for Turkish Air those exact statements do have some crediblity and can be listed as from a "credible" source.

Use caution and take some friendly advice. It's best not to speculate on here about this particular accident considering your "position" (pilot) at the company involved (your company). That's all.

Great. Point taken. Here's your cookie. Can you kindly quit needling him now?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2009-02-25 11:21:24 and read 39540 times.



Quoting Commander_Rabb (Reply 47):
True. But when that person "claims" to be a Pilot for Turkish Air those exact statements do have some crediblity and can be listed as from a "credible" source.

Use caution and take some friendly advice. It's best not to speculate on here about this particular accident considering your "position" (pilot) at the company involved (your company). That's all.
Best!

You've made your point. Now give it a rest!

While it's always a good idea to "cover your ass," Pilotaydin is clearly an adult and is much more aware of what is and is not approrpriate in his company and in his country. And, any jounrnalist that would "quote" anything said on here to a specific screenname is not a credible journalist.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: United787
Posted 2009-02-25 11:23:29 and read 39249 times.

First off, my prayers to all of the victims and their families.

In reading the entire discussion in regards to Pilotaydin, it seems to me that most of the comments to Pilotaydin are well intended and are meant to warn Pilotaydin to be careful and not say something that would jeopardize their job. I have read about Boeing employees who have been reprimanded for comments made on this site.

Yes, A-Net is not the media but it is a public forum that will be read by the media and employers.

Furthermore, I wish users of this forum would proof read their comments for sensitivity during events like this. Victims of airline crashes are often known by people reading and participating in this forum and a little class can go a long way.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Matheus
Posted 2009-02-25 11:31:01 and read 38644 times.

I'm sorry to, but let me especulate too.
Maybe an error on the load or on the load sheet made the crew to calculate a slower approach speed that was supposed to be.
Other thing is weather. METAR shows only surface winds and it isnt that calm on the time of the crash (11kt), it can suddenly change in few feet, specially in winter.

Matt

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Commander_Rabb
Posted 2009-02-25 11:34:26 and read 38357 times.

Pilotaydin, no harm intended. Again its a tragic day. Just looking out for what is right. Condolences. It cannot be an easy day at your airline.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Gokmengs
Posted 2009-02-25 11:35:04 and read 38277 times.

First of all my condolences to anyone affected by this accident.
This is sad really, TK has been on an amazing positive news roll. I hope they can identify what caused this accident so it never happens again.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 36):
i havent spoken to the media...and if the media wants to quote a USERNAME from an unofficial forum, i highly doubt anyone is going to take them seriously...there is a difference between someone making a media statement and someone writing something on a website...

I for one appreciate the fact that Pilotaydin is sharing his knowledge especially in this matter. If he was making speculative claims thats something else but what he has been posting has been nothing but useful.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 39):
I'm sorry if that's your reaction (and it's obviously your choice or not), but Anet's "officiality" or not, what you're dealing with here is REALITY and the PERCEPTION of reality. We all know that journos lurk on PPRUNE as well as on this site, and via use of terms like "reportedly" and others, Voila'!, you could easily now be deemed a quasi-offical spokesperson for the airline.

OPNLguy I think the excessive legal due diligence are only making the lawyers rich. We should appreciate the info that I find "exclusive" in the case of Pilotaydin in this matter, especially the way he has been posting. Just my Opinion.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 11:36:36 and read 38165 times.



Quoting N83SF (Reply 28):
My condolences to those affected by this crash. Seeing as this is an American made airplane, does anybody know if the NTSB is going to be assisting in the investigation?

Yes, and Boeing and the engine manufacturer (GE I think?).

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Robffm2
Posted 2009-02-25 11:38:18 and read 38054 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 31):
so ill stop posting...seeing as people have other age

Please don't leave this discussion. I think your comments here are very interesting and are certainly giving a lot of insight.
As long as you don't claim to act in any official role I trust that all your posts would fall under free speech rights.
To ask you to stop posting here would mean to ask for censorship.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Gorgos
Posted 2009-02-25 11:38:54 and read 38110 times.

If its so horrible to read Pilotaydin´s statements, one can always limit himself to CNN and read their reports about A380´s blowing up midair today in Schiphol with 250 souls onboard.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 11:39:31 and read 38158 times.



Quoting Cmoltay (Reply 22):
"One survivor has told on the Turkish evening news that he saw black smoke out from one of the engines and the engine departed the plane and flew forward..."

Realising this is a most unreliable account and may have happened after the plane hit the ground or could purely be the imagination of the witness, I want to ask, if what he has told is true, would an engine flying forward point to an airborne reverser deployment? Would that be possible?

Regards,

Yes, it´s possible, has happen once before AFAIK with a Boeing 767, http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19910526-0

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: L4DashTrash
Posted 2009-02-25 11:40:12 and read 38027 times.

Wow that had to have been a hell of an impact, I know you have noticed the seats, but look through the windows the internal cabin paneling appears to have buckled and shifted as well.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Turki...Airlines/Boeing-737-8F2/1489066/L/

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 11:44:33 and read 37663 times.



Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 69):
Please don't leave this discussion. I think your comments here are very interesting and are certainly giving a lot of insight.
As long as you don't claim to act in any official role I trust that all your posts would fall under free speech rights.
To ask you to stop posting here would mean to ask for censorship.

Very true . I agree I hope Pilotaydin does not leave the thread
-------------------

Richard Quest asked Kieran Daly if he gave him a ticket on TK to IST , would he go  Yeah sure  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Commander_Rabb
Posted 2009-02-25 11:44:19 and read 37643 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 50):
Richard Quest now reporting on CNN. He is giving www.twitter.com a plug and telling people what things and quotes have been posted on there. Also to discuss the role the internet played in this reporting !!

Imagine that!!! LOL (Shudders at the thought)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 11:46:39 and read 37609 times.

How do we know that's really Quest with that user name  Smile?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Admford
Posted 2009-02-25 11:48:29 and read 37271 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 52):
second guess would be accidental autoreverse like the Lauda Air one.

Thrust reversers would cause the plane to pitch down, not up, due to their placement and quick loss of speed. Also since the plane crashed belly down, both thrust reversers would have to deploy at the same time.

Personally I still think that it could have been an unintentional stall, possibly caused by the pilots relying on autothrottle to increase power to the engines at the time. If autothrottle wasn't activated, then they'd just stall the plane and the belly flop landing that happened would account for the damage seen, and also the amount of fractures seen in the survivors.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Cmoltay
Posted 2009-02-25 11:51:54 and read 37051 times.



Quoting L4DashTrash (Reply 72):
Yes, it´s possible, has happen once before AFAIK with a Boeing 767, http://aviation-safety.net/database/...526-0

But in that case the airborne deployment of the reverser does not cause the engine to seperate from the wing, the structure fails due to stress due to loss of control.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 11:53:38 and read 36897 times.

Admford, but if one engine would go full autoreverse and be torn off the wing while the airplane still was flying like Lauda Air?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: United787
Posted 2009-02-25 11:54:48 and read 36732 times.



Quoting L4DashTrash (Reply 72):
Wow that had to have been a hell of an impact, I know you have noticed the seats, but look through the windows the internal cabin paneling appears to have buckled and shifted as well.

I noticed this as well!

Do we know what elevation they were at when things went wrong and the plane "fell"?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 11:57:22 and read 36577 times.



Quoting Cmoltay (Reply 78):
But in that case the airborne deployment of the reverser does not cause the engine to seperate from the wing, the structure fails due to stress due to loss of control.

You quoted the wrong user, since it only happen once AFAIK on a different airframe Boeing 767
(same engine configuration at least) how do we know that?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 12:04:14 and read 36438 times.

Crash location:

Crashplaats = crash location.
Note that label [A9] is incorrectly placed. A9 highway is between crash location and runway.

I believe it's actually a little further from the runway treshold. Between 2.0 and 3.0 km. Apart from that, the illustration appears to be pretty accurate. The plane is indeed right on the extended runway centreline.


Regards,
PW100

[Edited 2009-02-25 12:11:11]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Admford
Posted 2009-02-25 12:04:42 and read 36049 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 80):
but if one engine would go full autoreverse and be torn off the wing while the airplane still was flying like Lauda Air

Airspeed would be key. The Lauda Air was just after take off and at full power. While the 737-800 would be travelling at a relatively low speed and a reduced flight envelope. Most likely, a thrust reverser activating would have stalled it, but also tipped over the plane onto a wing. There also isn't any damage from what I can see to the leading edge of the wings, where an engine might have rotated through.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 12:05:15 and read 35936 times.



Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 62):
OPNLguy I think the excessive legal due diligence are only making the lawyers rich. We should appreciate the info that I find "exclusive" in the case of Pilotaydin in this matter, especially the way he has been posting. Just my Opinion.

Sorry, but I bailed out of this aspect of the thread back in reply #48. Dead issue AFAIC...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-02-25 12:05:25 and read 35900 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 67):
Quoting N83SF (Reply 28):
My condolences to those affected by this crash. Seeing as this is an American made airplane, does anybody know if the NTSB is going to be assisting in the investigation?

Yes, and Boeing and the engine manufacturer (GE I think?).

The engine maker, CFM International, is a 50-50 joint venture of GE in the U.S. and Snecma in France. CFM56 engines are assembled in both the U.S. and France.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: AustrianZRH
Posted 2009-02-25 12:06:44 and read 35760 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 75):
I believe it's actually a little further from the runway treshold. Between 2.0 and 3.0 km.

The arrow starts at the displaced threshold. Maybe it's just that difference. Or are you basing the distance on that map as well?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 12:07:55 and read 35728 times.



Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 78):
The arrow starts at the displaced threshold. Maybe it's just that difference. Or are you basing the distance on that map as well?

Both. The treshold displacement is around 500m.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: GlobeEx
Posted 2009-02-25 12:08:54 and read 35807 times.



Quoting CARST (Reply 1):
Hi everyone, too bad to read about another crash with fatalities, seems to be not a good time for the airlines right now...


I just came from work and i am too tired to read all threads about the crash, i just read the 2nd half of thread 3.

Here are 17 quite good pictures of the crash, don't know if they were posted already (News in German):
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/artic...ecksmaschine-zu-wenig-Kerosin.html


But nevertheless the pics are a good start for thread 4 and show all the damage to the aircraft...

Picture 10 surely is evidence to me that this engine wasn't running anymore on impact as only the lower blades are proper damaged.

GlobeEx

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Semsem
Posted 2009-02-25 12:11:27 and read 35495 times.

Alessandro yes there are birds in the area. About 20 years ago I was on a KLM 747 taking off for New York. After a few minutes we hit birds and had to return. We waited about 4 hours for another aircraft.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Cmoltay
Posted 2009-02-25 12:11:33 and read 35449 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 73):
You quoted the wrong user, since it only happen once AFAIK on a different airframe Boeing 767
(same engine configuration at least) how do we know that?

Sorry about the wrong quote... The accident investigation report seems to be clear about the issue, but you're right, that report is based on a construction of events, it will never be known what actually did happen.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Logos
Posted 2009-02-25 12:12:35 and read 35266 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 74):
I believe it's actually a little further from the runway treshold. Between 2.0 and 3.0 km. Apart from that, the illustration appears to be prety accurate. The plane is indeed right on the extended runway centreline.

Thanks, you answered my question from earlier.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 12:13:22 and read 35294 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 74):
Crash location:

Thanks for the good map its very clear.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Tmcn
Posted 2009-02-25 12:14:53 and read 35165 times.

Reminds me somewhat of the BA772 that crashed at LHR in 2007. Any news yet on the results of the investigation for that one?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: BOACVC10
Posted 2009-02-25 12:15:56 and read 35134 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 58):

Note the location of the horizontal stabelizer . . .
Click here for footage.

Regards,
PW100

I am sure there will be a.netters who have the engineering skills to come up with logical explanations in the next few days, and I would welcome some thoughts (perhaps a technical scenario) on the following:

Assumption #1 the horizontal stablizer is lost responsible for uncontrollable pitch up/down; Only the wings (roll) and vert. stabilizer (yaw) are available - what can the pilot do at that point?

Assumption #2 based upon very unsubstantiated report from passenger, it was quiet, then high pitch engine noise - could they have been trying to fly out of the stall and generate lift ?

Assumption #2B - however others have reported abnormal silence in the lack of appropriate engine noise.

Assumption #3 based upon the lack of a perceivable "bounce" of the aircraft, as it simply looks "ploughed" into ground - also, the tailplane looks relatively clean break, it fell through to ground level, and the pilot was trying for a belly landing - with the engines at full throttle -OR- with engines completely at low thrust ? This doesn't make sense to me.

I'm trying to ask questions based upon likely scenarios, that could be replicated on a flight simulator - and modeling programs, not what we are going to potentially find out after the investigation happens.

However, for those who will wait for the European version of NTSB to issue preliminary accident investigation report, this is not the US, internatioal vessel is involved, and I doubt it if the airline (TK) would want this information to be released promptly without adequate time to do damage control.

The fact that the landing gear did NOT shear off but thrust vertically through immense structures means that the plane literally fell out of the sky at incredible velocity - indicating some sort of catastrophic "anomaly" with regard to the engines, i.e., total propulsion loss, with no forward motion, otherwise why would that gear have not broken off towards the horizontal line of travel of the aircraft ?

BOACVC10

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Reality
Posted 2009-02-25 12:19:37 and read 34855 times.



Quoting Commander_Rabb (Reply 15):
Pilotaydin, with all due respect I do not think you are serving your company well by commenting and speculating on this accident. I don't think you are a spokesman for Turkish Air.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 25):
I think that the point that he's trying to make is that although it's true that you've never CLAIMED to be an official spokesperson for your airline, your comments might be PERCEIVED by some as "official"

Why not let Pilotaydin decide what to do himself? Why is this your business. It is up to Pilotaydin.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Robcol99
Posted 2009-02-25 12:20:01 and read 34768 times.

So since the distance of the aircarft to the threshold is around 1,5 km. It was in the last 20-25 seconds of the flight. They were supposed to be around 400 ft, not on the ground at the place of impact.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Cmoltay
Posted 2009-02-25 12:28:32 and read 34297 times.



Quoting BOACVC10 (Reply 86):
The fact that the landing gear did NOT shear off but thrust vertically through immense structures means that the plane literally fell out of the sky at incredible velocity - indicating some sort of catastrophic "anomaly" with regard to the engines, i.e., total propulsion loss, with no forward motion, otherwise why would that gear have not broken off towards the horizontal line of travel of the aircraft ?

Imagine this: The aircraft sinking, tail down, continuing its forward motion; the tail strikes the wet ground, as forward motion continues it gets buried into the ground (literally) and acting like a ship's anchor, resists the forward motion of the concerned aircraft to convert all the energy left to a centrifugal force and that force coupled with the effects of gravity slams the centre and front gear to the ground.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: NCB
Posted 2009-02-25 12:28:36 and read 34317 times.

Thanks for your inputs Pilotaydin, don't be bothered by the children who also have the right to post on this website. I rather hope that you will get some sleep tonight so you can be safe for your next trip.  Smile

The thread has become too long to read so here's my input:

Stalling high, not giving the crew the luxury of a controlled, smoothened forced landing, with control lost on short final for landing in high drag configuration set...sounds like icing.

It could very well be an engine failure but looking at the pics here: http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202
I suggest that at least one of the engines had decent fan speed at time of impact.

Terrain is soft, moist dirt, the impact must have been pretty hard to tear off that landing gear in that fashion, so definitely a deep stall. I can't think of many things that can cause a deep stall on a modern, redundancy-rich aircraft that just had an eventless 3 hour flight behind it. Definitely external or human factors but latter rather unlikely seen the extent of the damage on the aircraft, it takes alot to put an aircraft in such an unrecoverable state.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Globeex
Posted 2009-02-25 12:31:32 and read 34065 times.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 37):
We all know that journos lurk on PPRUNE as well as on this site, and via use of terms like "reportedly" and others, Voila'!, you could easily now be deemed a quasi-offical spokesperson for the airline.

Well sometime I even wish that the media would look a bit more on this site and don't take their "aviation experts" which usually think about an airplane while they are on their way to a holiday destination which they are supposed to be tested.

Another thing. Surely the damage on the aircraft is pretty severe. But it doesn't look like the aircraft dropped from 100 or 200 meters. I rather think that it was a more or less controlled emergency landing equivalent to a free drop from something like 15-30m (so it hit the ground with a vertical speed of about 40-60km/h). The destruction is just that bad as the ground was pretty wet, breaking down the aircraft rapidly. If the ground would have been properly frozen maybe the aircraft would have stayed more intact.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 12:32:30 and read 34414 times.

CNN say the third Pilot was a trainee apprentice observing. They just played the last words of the pilots also on ATC.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Sbworcs
Posted 2009-02-25 12:33:49 and read 33989 times.

Can't add anything new but just find it so sad that in such a short timespan we are all here offering condolences that have lost loved ones to a crash.

May those that perished R.I.P and my thoughts go out to their friends and families

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: GlobeEx
Posted 2009-02-25 12:35:43 and read 33820 times.

Somehow I can't edit my post, so sorry for that:
relating to my post above. You have to keep in mind, that the gear was down, breaking the aircraft faster as well increasing the forces on the airplane.

GlobeEx

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2009-02-25 12:37:46 and read 33675 times.



Quoting Reality (Reply 87):
Why not let Pilotaydin decide what to do himself? Why is this your business. It is up to Pilotaydin.

Sorry, but I bailed out of this aspect of the thread back in reply #48. Dead issue AFAIC...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 12:39:33 and read 33505 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 18):
Do you see anywhere in my posts, where i claim to be a spokesman for my airline?



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 31):
well then, so much for aviation enthusiast website...if people on here were truely fans of aviation, we wouldn't even bother talk about this crap...
so ill stop posting...seeing as people have other agendas...
ill watch the 15 year olds go at their arm chairing...
my company has a policy where you don't make any statements to the MEDIA and TV, A.net is just a posting forum that has no officiality whatsoever...

First of all, why you wouldn't have the right to post your opinion and also to defend your airline? I see nothing wrong in that. In fact, youare one of the rare, if not the only one, who is personally touched with the accident that happened today. As far as I am concerned, I will always read your posts and respect them because you are professional. You as a member of this forum deserved my respect long time ago and now I can only seat back and read what you have to say, so keep on posting.  Wink

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 68):
How do we know that's really Quest with that user name Smile?

Good point. I can only hope that this is Richard Quest.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: DingDong
Posted 2009-02-25 12:42:58 and read 33228 times.

I'm not familiar with AMS ops, but what STAR would you typically be flying for an 18R arrival?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Gorgos
Posted 2009-02-25 12:44:56 and read 33213 times.



Quoting NCB (Reply 90):



Quoting Globeex (Reply 91):

Eyewitness reports in Dutch suggest the tail went down/nose up violently and then the opposite nose down. They also mentioned the airplane was unusually low (one said 80m) and slow.

People travel that highway every day, so they notice when an airplane makes an unsual flightpath.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Bahadir
Posted 2009-02-25 12:46:10 and read 32996 times.

can anyone report who landed before the unfortunate aircraft? it starts to feel like a wake turbulance issue. at least we can rule that one out if we knew who was landing ahead of TK 737  Sad

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: EMA747
Posted 2009-02-25 12:47:42 and read 33193 times.

From the pics here http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202 it looks like at least the port side engine came off without too much damage at all to the pylon on the wing. (pic 5).

For anyone that might know the answer - If the engines had been at TOGA power would this increase the chance of fire on landing due to a high fuel flow rate and fuel then spilling out once the plane hit the ground?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Khobar
Posted 2009-02-25 12:47:50 and read 33271 times.



Quoting Cmoltay (Reply 89):
Imagine this: The aircraft sinking, tail down, continuing its forward motion; the tail strikes the wet ground, as forward motion continues it gets buried into the ground (literally) and acting like a ship's anchor, resists the forward motion of the concerned aircraft to convert all the energy left to a centrifugal force and that force coupled with the effects of gravity slams the centre and front gear to the ground.

This photo appears to show one of the gear in the background with some other wreckage:
http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/Photos/Alb...VCqlakTpHa4KKPpT0VL8sNikL68jQg1eXN

That other wreckage appears to be the horizontal stab, at least from this photo:
http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/Photos/Alb...pvt!OWn94KoIYBFgnImkn82dvVQLwuX3b5

You can see the gear in both shots.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Cmoltay
Posted 2009-02-25 12:49:18 and read 32983 times.



Quoting Bahadir (Reply 99):
can anyone report who landed before the unfortunate aircraft? it starts to feel like a wake turbulance issue. at least we can rule that one out if we knew who was landing ahead of TK 737  

Ugur Cebeci mentioned a 777 on the news...

Regards,

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Tom_eddf
Posted 2009-02-25 12:51:19 and read 32885 times.



Quoting NCB (Reply 90):
Terrain is soft, moist dirt, the impact must have been pretty hard to tear off that landing gear in that fashion, so definitely a deep stall

How can a non-T-Tail aircraft like a 737 encounter a deep stall?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: ULMFlyer
Posted 2009-02-25 12:52:53 and read 32854 times.



Quoting Admford (Reply 75):
The Lauda Air was just after take off and at full power

Negative. Reverser deployed 15:01 into the flight. Maybe you're thinking of JJ 402 PT-MRK @ CGH.

PilotAydin, I'm sorry for your loss. I do really appreciate your professional contribution on A.net, and it really deprives us of a lot no being able to read the input of the likes of you, Zeke, Pihero, PhilSquares, etc.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Emrecan
Posted 2009-02-25 13:02:43 and read 32093 times.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):

Totally agreed !

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2009-02-25 13:02:46 and read 32170 times.

I'm not sure what the effects of wake turbulence would be on larger airplanes like a 738, but a couple of previous crashes involving corporate jets which encountered 757 wake turbulence indicated that the planes rolled and pitched into a sharp nose down angle and hit the ground in the same fashion.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 13:06:55 and read 31889 times.

Bahadir, it was a B757 whom landed before the B738.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 13:07:51 and read 31984 times.

Somebody said that emergency was declared prior to landing of ill-fated place and that emergency vehicles were waiting for the plane. Does anybody know anything more about that?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-02-25 13:11:01 and read 31700 times.



Quoting Cmoltay (Reply 82):
Sorry about the wrong quote... The accident investigation report seems to be clear about the issue, but you're right, that report is based on a construction of events, it will never be known what actually did happen

Heard that after Lauda they have implemented 3 extra locking devices on all Boeing jetplanes to avoid a repeat.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Bahadir
Posted 2009-02-25 13:11:45 and read 31626 times.



Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 108):
Somebody said that emergency was declared prior to landing of ill-fated place and that emergency vehicles were waiting for the plane. Does anybody know anything more about that?

everything sounded normal on the tapes i listened to

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Tlynch
Posted 2009-02-25 13:15:10 and read 31386 times.

From the first picture in reply 54 the horizontal stabilizer is about 60 meter's ,196ft behind the aircraft with debris in between. Would this indicate that the aircraft landed at a shallow angle as opposed to a steep angle. Ths ploughed field bringing the aircraft to a stop sooner than on a different surface ,let's say grass for example.

[Edited 2009-02-25 13:20:49]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 13:15:36 and read 31336 times.



Quoting Bahadir (Reply 110):
everything sounded normal on the tapes i listened to

Hmm, so it is just a rumor...again.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 13:18:00 and read 31569 times.



Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 108):
Somebody said that emergency was declared prior to landing of ill-fated place and that emergency vehicles were waiting for the plane. Does anybody know anything more about that?

At no stage an emergency was declared. So no, no emergency.

Here are some of the audio tapes from www.liveATC.net:

Approach: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/tu...ish-1951-cleared-approach-eham.mp3
After the crash:http://archive-server.liveatc.net/EHAM-Airport-Post-Crash.mp3

You can hear the aircraft receiving clearance for final approach, and the crew confirming that. That was their last transmission . . . very chilling and sad to hear those last words  Sad

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Baguy
Posted 2009-02-25 13:21:01 and read 30948 times.



Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 108):
Somebody said that emergency was declared prior to landing of ill-fated place and that emergency vehicles were waiting for the plane. Does anybody know anything more about that?

Interesting, Although from the numerous articles and opinions I have read, this seems unlikely.

Anyhow, My deepest sympathy to everyone involved.

Safe flying,

BAguy

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2009-02-25 13:26:37 and read 30731 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 113):
That was their last transmission . . . very chilling and sad to hear those last words

It's so sad to hear the last words of TK pilot.  Sad
RIP

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 13:38:35 and read 29813 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 113):
Approach: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/tu...ish-1951-cleared-approach-eham.mp3
After the crash:http://archive-server.liveatc.net/EHAM-Airport-Post-Crash.mp3

Indeed very sad .

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: NCB
Posted 2009-02-25 13:38:51 and read 29872 times.



Quoting Tom_eddf (Reply 103):

How can a non-T-Tail aircraft like a 737 encounter a deep stall?

T-tail doesn't have much to do with deep stalling. You can deep stall anything.
Deep stall refers to the fact that you are dropping almost vertically towards the ground with absence of conventional airflow over the wings and extreme difficulty of recovery.

Quoting Tlynch (Reply 111):
From the first picture in reply 54 the horizontal stabilizer is about 60 meter's ,196ft behind the aircraft with debris in between. Would this indicate that the aircraft landed at a shallow angle as opposed to a steep angle.

It's hard to say, but even an aircraft in a deeper stall would have some horizontal speed component. Say that the Reference stall speed for the B738 in landing configuration is 120kts, you could be in a stall and still have 80 kts of lateral ground speed.

At 80 kts, 60 meters is a matter of 1.5-2 seconds.

Even in stall conditions, you usually have quite some horizontal speed component compared to vertical, but this depends on the depth of the stall.

Looking at the pictures of the fan, it looks like there was at least some rotation on the fans, too hard to say from a picture though whether it was turning fast enough to generate sufficient thrust for sustained flight, so it would be idiot to speculate on that.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Cumulus
Posted 2009-02-25 13:40:22 and read 29733 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 23):
which suggests the approach was indeed dual engine...as all other checklists require flaps 15 on single engine

Unless Engine Failure after full flap extension.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2009-02-25 13:42:56 and read 29662 times.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 37):
I'm sorry if that's your reaction (and it's obviously your choice or not), but Anet's "officiality" or not, what you're dealing with here is REALITY and the PERCEPTION of reality. We all know that journos lurk on PPRUNE as well as on this site, and via use of terms like "reportedly" and others, Voila'!, you could easily now be deemed a quasi-offical spokesperson for the airline.

What is obvious in the US of A doesn't have to apply to the whole world. It is not as if TK might be held liable for something Pilotaydin says. At least not around here in Europe.

If anyone could deem him a quasi-official spokesperson for TK, than that person is a quasi-journalist or quasi-whatever.

With people dead and most of us here saddened by today's news simply trying to figure out what might have happened, it is a bit strange this seems to be your biggest worry.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: 9V-SPJ
Posted 2009-02-25 13:43:09 and read 29611 times.

It would be interesting to see if the crew was using autoland during this landing.

9V-SPJ

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Qualitydr
Posted 2009-02-25 13:43:46 and read 29713 times.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
Also, commenting in this forum in the context of this discussion between aviation enthusiasts could only be construed as being official comment by someone who was deliberately trying to stir up trouble.

I believe you've hit the key point here, RJ. In the USA your sentence is a pretty good description of how many (all too many!) journalists approach their job these days. "Solid" reporting is a thing of the past...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Irelayer
Posted 2009-02-25 13:58:33 and read 28536 times.

Very tragic indeed. RIP to the victims.

-IR

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Baguy
Posted 2009-02-25 14:03:16 and read 28292 times.

Sorry, post i made earlier was out of date by the time i posted it.

BAguy

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: NQYGuy
Posted 2009-02-25 14:05:23 and read 28383 times.

I've uploaded some of the ATC found in the news reports.

Very sad indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6s6dV7N75g

[Edited 2009-02-25 14:15:19]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Boeing747_600
Posted 2009-02-25 14:06:37 and read 28176 times.



Quoting NCB (Reply 117):
T-tail doesn't have much to do with deep stalling. You can deep stall anything.

While you can technically deep-stall anything, a T-tail has a LOT to do with the ability to recover from a deep stall.

A deep stall results in the downwash flowing over the tailplane of a T-tail and adversely affecting the ability to correct flight pitch with elevators. Whith a non-T-tail, the downwash from the wings tends to stay mostly clear of the tailplane.

See Airplane Flight Dynamics and Automatic Flight Controls: by Jan Roskam.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2009-02-25 14:07:13 and read 28147 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 54):
Note the location of the horizontal stabelizer . . .
Click here for footage.

Not only the location, but also that it obviously flipped over after detaching.

I just want to make a remark on the rescue equipment they have at Schiphol. What realkly impressed me was that caterpillar truck which is obviously exactly for the purpose to move in soft fields. The tractor and trailer may have been "borrowed" from the farmer next to the crash site, but the caterpillar miust be airport rescue equipment, thoughtful and useful for the location.

.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Derik737
Posted 2009-02-25 14:17:21 and read 27683 times.



Quoting NCB (Reply 90):
t could very well be an engine failure but looking at the pics here: http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202

In the 10th picture, the Flight Data Recorder is sitting on the ground still in it's overhead ceiling mount.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 14:18:07 and read 27765 times.

BBC reports that the post 9/11 cockpit doors made it hard for the rescue workers to get into the cockpit. The marks on the top of A/C over the cockpit was a firemans axe.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Icareflies
Posted 2009-02-25 14:23:23 and read 27362 times.

Boeing is saying that 4 employees were on board of the plane. No more info for now.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 14:30:34 and read 27132 times.

Four Americans on Crashed Plane in Amsterdam That Killed Nine

There were four American citizens on the flight, according to the State Department. The Americans are Boeing employees, and their condition is currently unkown.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,500388,00.html

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Climb1
Posted 2009-02-25 14:35:47 and read 26794 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 128):

Hmm. Looking at this image that doesnt look like an axe. But time will tell.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/crashschiphol2.jpg

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2009-02-25 14:36:21 and read 26635 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 128):
The marks on the top of A/C over the cockpit was a firemans axe.

Believe that the puncture behind the cockpit could be galley structure forced up from below thru the top of the skin....that and the breaking of the fuselage as well as the crushing of the cockpit itself tends to indicate a quite severe impact into the soft ground....dang....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: RichM
Posted 2009-02-25 14:38:07 and read 26511 times.



Quoting Derik737 (Reply 127):
Quoting NCB (Reply 90):
It could very well be an engine failure but looking at the pics here: http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202

The link doesn't appear to work.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 14:40:42 and read 26436 times.



Quoting Climb1 (Reply 131):
Hmm. Looking at this image that doesnt look like an axe. But time will tell.

I saw video footage earlier of a fireman with an axe hitting that part. Maybe it was like that already and I dont know why the fireman was hitting at it. Maybe to try make the hole bigger to gain access.

Just looking at those pics and the emegency workers. They are all amazing. I couldnt do that job. It must be horrific.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: SuseJ772
Posted 2009-02-25 14:43:20 and read 26356 times.



Quoting Robcol99 (Reply 42):
They were in final approach, all of a sudden they felt a big drop, and they hear the engines rumbling to almost full power.

One survivor thought that they were going to do a GA with that much engine power, but he said then the plane landed on the mud. Now an engine cannot create that noise without fuel right.

Sounds like windshear to me.

Quoting Robcol99 (Reply 42):
One of them said that he thought that they just had a bad landing at the moment of the impact.

Funny. That is what the BA 777 pax said as well.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 49):
Yes, I agree, fuelstarvation seem unlikely, my first guess would be birdstrike, second guess would be accidental autoreverse like the Lauda Air one.

Windshear would be number one, then your list only down one position.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 14:48:22 and read 26099 times.



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 126):
I just want to make a remark on the rescue equipment they have at Schiphol. What realkly impressed me was that caterpillar truck which is obviously exactly for the purpose to move in soft fields. The tractor and trailer may have been "borrowed" from the farmer next to the crash site, but the caterpillar miust be airport rescue equipment, thoughtful and useful for the location.

That was part of the leassons learned on the previous crash at Schiphol Airport in 1994 [KLM cityhopper SAAB 340], which also crashed in muddy farmland next to runway 06. At the time rescue workes were severly hampered at reaching the crash site as none of their equipment could reach the crash site, including the big crash tenders. Just unfortunate that people had to die at the time to learn this lesson. Though if they would have had that equipment back in 1994, probably would not have saved any of the three casualties.

I was very impressed how fast so many rescue workers were avaiable, one of the photos shows an seemingly endless lines of amulances.

All big hospitals [6 or 7!!) within 35 km radius, declared a full emergency situation. All non-critical operations were cancelled, even operations in process were halted where possible, and no less than 25 OR's were availble with 45 minutes to help trauma patients from the crash site. Before the world new what was going on, all hospital staff not in the hospital were called and most of them reported on duty within 60 minutes. Really excellent work!

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: GAIsweetGAI
Posted 2009-02-25 14:48:33 and read 26012 times.



Quoting Admford (Reply 69):
Personally I still think that it could have been an unintentional stall, possibly caused by the pilots relying on autothrottle to increase power to the engines at the time. If autothrottle wasn't activated, then they'd just stall the plane and the belly flop landing that happened would account for the damage seen, and also the amount of fractures seen in the survivors.

Reminds me of the A310 incident - was it at ORY? IIRC it stalled on approach, with the A/T engaged. (From memory, so correct me if I'm wrong. Hopefully it's nothing similar?)

A thought that intrigues me - how come the horizontal stabilizer is so far from the place the A/C came to rest, while the rest of the A/C is pretty much in one place? How come the sections of fuselage cracked apart, yet didn't separate entirely, if the impact was violent?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: NCB
Posted 2009-02-25 14:49:09 and read 25969 times.



Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 125):
While you can technically deep-stall anything, a T-tail has a LOT to do with the ability to recover from a deep stall.

A deep stall results in the downwash flowing over the tailplane of a T-tail and adversely affecting the ability to correct flight pitch with elevators. Whith a non-T-tail, the downwash from the wings tends to stay mostly clear of the tailplane.

See Airplane Flight Dynamics and Automatic Flight Controls: by Jan Roskam.

T-tail or not it wouldn't make any difference on a deep stall on final approach.
Either way, you won't recover.

The shadowing effect on T-tails impairing recovery is true but there's so much more that goes wrong starting from the engines. At given angles of attack, the compressor would simply stall and flame-out....

Also, your tailpane whatever the design is, may not be able to grip the air in such fashion as to exercise enough moment force to twist the aircraft nose down again. Typically, you can lower flaps and create a forward moment or if you're desperate and you got time, order all passengers to stand up and start running towards the front of the aircraft...

I doubt that wake turbulence was at play, the aircraft would have crashed in a totally uncontrolled and unbalanced fashion.

Engine failure, control parameters malfunction, pilot error are also very plausible explanations but I'd go with icing.

Whatever happened, I'm sure that the flight crew did the best they could in the circumstances and limited casualties in an event that could have turned out alot worth than a dozen of death and injuries.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2009-02-25 14:50:55 and read 26013 times.

I am shocked that the pilots did not survive this. The damage to the flight deck does not appear to be fatal looking. Of course, I am obviously no crash expert. What a tragedy. I sure hope they find the cause quickly.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 128):
BBC reports that the post 9/11 cockpit doors made it hard for the rescue workers to get into the cockpit. The marks on the top of A/C over the cockpit was a firemans axe.

Not only difficult to get into, but imagine how much the integrity of the structure changed from the impact. I just can't imagine. I wonder if the delay of being able to get into the flight deck could have resulted in them not surviving?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 14:54:06 and read 25787 times.



Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 135):
Windshear would be number one, then your list only down one position.

Highly unlikely as there was no severe weahter whatsoever in the vicinity of the airport. Weather was very calm.

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Hywel
Posted 2009-02-25 15:00:08 and read 25422 times.

I wonder if for some reason the auto throttle had been disengaged and the crew did not notice. The speed reduces and the crew did not notice, stall warning, apply power, aggressive pitch/power couple which leads to a further stall. If they were unable to recover from that then it could have come down. It happened at another airline in 2007, although without an actual crash occurring.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-approach-under-investigation.html

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: UltimateDelta
Posted 2009-02-25 15:01:18 and read 25408 times.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 139):
I wonder if the delay of being able to get into the flight deck could have resulted in them not surviving?

That is a good question. I've read about cases where people suffer not-very-hard impacts to the chest and still died just from the shock. I guess they could have been thrown against the controls and that's what happened. Funny that it might have happened to all three, though.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 15:04:23 and read 25347 times.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 139):
I am shocked that the pilots did not survive this. The damage to the flight deck does not appear to be fatal looking. Of course, I am obviously no crash expert. What a tragedy. I sure hope they find the cause quickly.

Take a good look at the underside and the front underside of the front fuselage. A lot of trauma to the airplane. It appears that the cockpit floor came up violantly, smashing the fuselage structure under the cockpit even causing internal structure [galley?] protruding externally through the top of the fuselage. Quite possibly the nosewheel structure penetrated the cockpit/cabin floor.

It took rescue workers over 6 hours to get access to the cockpit crew bodies. Official reason why that took so long is that "they did not want to disturb the any cockpit settings and instruments", but there are some indications from rescue workers that it wasn't a pretty sight and they needed time to bring in specialized equipment to gain access to the bodies . . . . very sad indeed  Sad

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 15:05:15 and read 25296 times.

Statements on casualties in Turkish Airlines crash create controversy

Contradictory statements made by officials after a Boeing 747-800 type passenger plane operated by Turkish Airlines (THY) crash-landed in Amsterdam on Wednesday. (UPDATED)

Footage aired by Dutch broadcasters and news agencies showed bodies in body bags like the one Hurriyet Daily News Online used for this story. In the photograph bodies can be seen lying on the ground, covered, by the wreckage.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11081862.asp?gid=244

Note the A/C mistake.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: RichM
Posted 2009-02-25 15:07:11 and read 25142 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 128):
The marks on the top of A/C over the cockpit was a firemans axe.

Wouldn't it take forever for an axe to penetrate the body of the aircraft?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2009-02-25 15:10:39 and read 25131 times.

http://foto.nieuwsblad.be/9639474202

shows the external damage to the cockpit area pretty clearly. It is possible that they may also show some internal damage thru the windows....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 15:13:50 and read 24936 times.

Hmm, now I see it. Someone mentioned some German media and emergency landing, but it is possible that they made wrong conclusion after listening to the ATC tape after the accident happened

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2009-02-25 15:18:07 and read 24699 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 68):
How do we know that's really Quest with that user name Smile?

The unmistakable speech pattern. "Thiss iw Wichawd Qwwessst wepowting."

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-02-25 15:24:28 and read 24570 times.



Quoting RichM (Reply 145):
Wouldn't it take forever for an axe to penetrate the body of the aircraft?

Not sure. I just saw it earlier on CNN and it caught my attention as I wondered why he was doing it.

Some more pics here ::

http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures...0090225&channelName=worldNews#a=15


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall...e-crashes-turkey?picture=343790553


http://www.wereldomroep.nl/actua/nl/vliegtuigcrash-schiphol

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Skippy777
Posted 2009-02-25 15:26:50 and read 24387 times.

Message from the Dutch NTSB in de Telegraaf

De voorzitter van de Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid zei in het tv-programma NOVA dat de vliegers van het toestel verpletterd zijn, toen een instrumentenpaneel achter hun rug de cockpit binnen kwam. De oorzaak was het plotselinge afremmen van het toestel in de modder, aldus Van Vollenhoven.Hoewel mensen van de onderzoeksraad snel de zwarte doos met vluchtgegevens in handen kregen, is er nog geen duidelijke oorzaak van de crash aan te geven.

Explanation in English

The cockpit crew where squashed at impact when a large instrument panal came to the front of the cockpit. Hopefully it happend fast for them. I am sure they saved a lots of live R.I.P.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-02-25 15:27:06 and read 24433 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 113):
You can hear the aircraft receiving clearance for final approach, and the crew confirming that. That was their last transmission . . . very chilling and sad to hear those last words

Knowing the he lost his life makes it really sad. May he and all the other victims rest in peace

[Edited 2009-02-25 15:27:40]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Deaphen
Posted 2009-02-25 15:27:14 and read 24843 times.

Hi guys, I just got back after visiting the crash and have lots of pics, here are a few, to clear things up...its easier if we have our own photo pool. Let me know if anyone want to see a particular part, though, only on the right side of the a/c, couldnt get to the other side.

Whats freaky is in of my pics below, you can clearly see the duty free cart, with all the cartons of Marlboro cigarettes.

Maybe these photos will help you in your deliberations and derivations! It certainly is strange, i for one dont get why the winglets are broken, or why the wheels seem perfectly alright, wouldnt they tear with such an impact?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/axe.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/winglet1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/vertstab.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/marlboro.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/gear.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/engine2.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/engine11.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/engine1.jpg

Regards
Nitin

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-02-25 15:29:43 and read 24386 times.



Quoting Deaphen (Reply 152):

Wow, great pics. Do you have more pics of the winglets? Seems really weird that both of them broke.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 15:32:47 and read 24437 times.

One of the pax on board the plane was just live on TV on a local late night show. He claims that immediately before the impact the engines spooled up, directly followed by the biggest smash he had ever felt.

From other eye-witness reports it can be deduced that the airplane hit the ground with an angle of attack of between 15 to 25 degrees.

From this it appears that engines were operating, but that the airplane went below the glideslope path for unknown reaons. Recovery was initiated too late as the aircraft tail hit the ground bewfore sufficient power was avaiable. It very much appears that he airplane was in the back-side of the drag curve and had insufficient energy [altitude and speed] to be recovered.

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: LTAC03R
Posted 2009-02-25 15:38:01 and read 24049 times.

It's been a very sad day at TK, especially among members of the 737 fleet. Any lives lost surely mean intolerable pain for people dedicated to a profession with safety at the forefront. But captain Arısan was a uniquely qualified air force veteran and an instructor of great virtue. He was one of my first instructors at TK. He is a great loss for TK and the Turkish aviation community alike. May he and the eight other souls R.I.P.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 15:39:45 and read 23957 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 136):



Quoting PW100 (Reply 136):
I was very impressed how fast so many rescue workers were avaiable, one of the photos shows an seemingly endless lines of amulances.

All big hospitals [6 or 7!!) within 35 km radius, declared a full emergency situation. All non-critical operations were cancelled, even operations in process were halted where possible, and no less than 25 OR's were availble with 45 minutes to help trauma patients from the crash site. Before the world new what was going on, all hospital staff not in the hospital were called and most of them reported on duty within 60 minutes. Really excellent work!

I understood things incorrectly. At least 5 hospitals were in full emergency mode. A spokesman of one hospital [not the largest one] said that his hospital cancelled all non-critical operations, and his hospital alone had created sufficient capacity within 60 minutes to accept up to 20 severe trauma patients. I can not say this enoygh, really excellent work!

Regards,
PW100

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: PW100
Posted 2009-02-25 15:41:05 and read 23809 times.



Quoting Skippy777 (Reply 150):
The cockpit crew where squashed at impact when a large instrument panal came to the front of the cockpit. Hopefully it happend fast for them. I am sure they saved a lots of live R.I.P.

Very sad indeed  Sad

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Sunx737
Posted 2009-02-25 15:41:53 and read 23804 times.

Very sad day in Turkey....May they rest in peace...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: 757GB
Posted 2009-02-25 15:49:26 and read 23509 times.



Quoting Deaphen (Reply 152):
It certainly is strange, i for one dont get why the winglets are broken

Only speculation on my part, but could they have been hit by debris? I haven't taken the time to take a look at the debris pattern (not enough time, been peeking at the thread every chance I get) but since the airplane doesn't seem to have hit anything on the ground like a tree or a building, that's the only thing I can think of.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Boeing747_600
Posted 2009-02-25 15:50:42 and read 23424 times.



Quoting NCB (Reply 138):
T-tail or not it wouldn't make any difference on a deep stall on final approach.
Either way, you won't recover.

That's not necessarily true. Non T-tails have demonstrated better stall recovery over the flight envelope from T/O to cruise to approach.

Quoting NCB (Reply 138):
Also, your tailpane whatever the design is, may not be able to grip the air in such fashion as to exercise enough moment force to twist the aircraft nose down again.

Again, all other things being equal, a T-tail has poorer (deep) stall recovery characteristics.

Note that I didnt say that a Non T-Tail will always recover from a deep stall - just that it gives the pilot more to work with than a T-tail would.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2009-02-25 15:52:19 and read 23362 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 154):
From other eye-witness reports it can be deduced that the airplane hit the ground with an angle of attack of between 15 to 25 degrees.

Nitpick here. This is not angle of attack. You are talking of angle of the fuselage to ground. Angle of attack has to do with airflow over the wings.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Deaphen
Posted 2009-02-25 15:55:54 and read 23295 times.

Though I forgot to mention in my earlier post, the Dutch emergency services were absolutely excellent. Its amazing how this small country manages to be so progressive and effective! I mean today, standing at the crash site, everything, and i mean everything was working like clockwork, not even a moment was wasted.

I was highly impressed with the regular police officers, the emergency crews, the investigation teams, i also saw a team from Turkish Technic who was at the site.

All i can say to the Dutch members in this forum is that i really enjoy your country, i couldnt have made a better choice to study here and i feel safest (aviationwise) when i am in the hands of a person from here, be it ATC, pilots, ground crew ,etc ,etc.

Brilliant, todays experience really impressed me.

Regards
Nitin

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Prebennorholm
Posted 2009-02-25 15:58:52 and read 23115 times.

Where is the left side engine?

I haven't read all 1000+ posts in all four threads, but probably most of them. We have seen many pictures from the crash site, many of them including the right hand engine slightly in front of the plane.

Obviously the left hand engine also separated from the wing. Studying the pictures carefully there seems to be no traces from that engine on the ground behind the left hand wing.

Of course it must have been found. Is there any information about where it was found and in what condition? Did it separate in the air?

Passengers reported violent vibrations before impact. That can have been stall buffeting, or it can have been a seriously damaged engine (maybe caused by bird strike - goose or swan or such). Such engine vibrations could have made the engine separate in the air.

It seems rather clear to me, when looking at the right hand engine fan, that it wasn't spinning at any significant power at impact.

Is there any pictures or information about the #1 engine?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Deaphen
Posted 2009-02-25 16:02:22 and read 22996 times.



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 163):
Is there any pictures or information about the #1 engine?

I had posted pics of both engines in reply 152. One is more battered and the other one's blades are almost intact!

Nitin

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-02-25 16:04:46 and read 23021 times.



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 163):
Where is the left side engine?

Here is a pic of both: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Turki...c_&prev_id=1489224&next_id=1488993

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 16:13:48 and read 22705 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 166):
Speculative denials made from conclusions reached from afar before the investigative teams are even in place serve no purpose other than to distort and confuse

Then let's forbid on A.net from now on, for ANYONE to dare and post what they think happened, from now on let's make it a boo hoo thread...everyone says the same old silly RIP blah blah...where's the aviation there??

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Midcon385
Posted 2009-02-25 16:19:13 and read 22422 times.

Geez guys, give Pilotaydin a break. He's just lost some colleagues, maybe even friends. Have some compassion. And let the guy talk if he wants to talk...I for one value and appreciate his input as a B737NG type-rated pilot and as a TK pilot.

Tim

[Edited 2009-02-25 16:20:46]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 16:19:46 and read 22550 times.

you know what pisses me off.....
this thread is about the plane crash..

but for some reason, some of you higher people...if i may call it that, seem to just looooove, to come on down and say...what you say is this, and that, and this and that...

look, if you have an opinion about the crash = post it
if you have an opinion about MY opinion = post it

but if you have an opinion about me HAVING and opinion and VOICING it.. DONT POST IT!!

Say what you feel about the damn crash, and about our theories and thoughts, don't tell us that we shouldnt be saying our thoughts and dont DARE to categorize where in the line of assumption our thoughts get to be sorted...in short, who are you to say what i think is an assumption versus a fact, versus a gut feeling, i don't care how you want to categorize what i say, but ask yourself what good it does for the forum when you do what YOU do, not when i do what i DO, you must have an amazing sock drawer...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2009-02-25 16:20:37 and read 22344 times.

RIP to all of those who perished on this truly sad day in aviation as well as Turkish Aviation as well.

As far as the comments towards Pilotaydin, give the guy a break - after hearing all these details about the cockpit, the crew,etc I can only imagine what this guy is thinking especially the fact he probably knew one or all of the guys in the cockpit. Keep posting on here Pilotaydin, some people on this site have absolutely zero sympathy on here.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 16:21:05 and read 22449 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 170):
let's try to discourage people from outright eliminating a possible causal factor before we have any real facts

why?!?!?!?!? NON of us here are going to write or publish the REAL cause or report when it comes out...

let's never guess the score of a soccer game or who's going to score, until they finish the game?!? come oooon!!!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Jetplaner
Posted 2009-02-25 16:28:26 and read 22229 times.

CTV Regina news tonight reported it as a "jumbo jet" crash. The rest of the story was accurate, but if they call a 737 a jumbo jet, then I wonder what they would call an A380 or 747?

Best wishes to the survivors and families.
-Jetplaner

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2009-02-25 16:31:39 and read 22116 times.

Personally I feel we cant discount the possibility the plane was hit by falling space debris  spin 

No seriously guys, lets not pick on Pilotaydin.

Each one of us is entitled to express opinions and speculate. After all seemingly every topic on a.net involves some form speculation, guessing, or personal opinions by its poster.

And when it comes such speculation or opinions as related to this crash, I would actually take Pilotaydin's comments having a little bit more insight over much of the other idle speculation on the site.

Anyhow, geçmiş olsun to everyone including the THY family.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OV735
Posted 2009-02-25 16:32:29 and read 22157 times.

After reading most of the posts on the 4 threads, I can only think of two speculative theories.

Theory #1
Fuel starvation - A mistake at fuel loading (wrong quantity) is already extremely improbable, since an error by the ramp personnel would have been detected in the cockpit preparation phase by the crew. A leak is also improbable, but it could happen.

The primary argument I have to support the fuel running out theory is the facts that a) there was no post crash fire and b) there was no post crash action by the rescue workers to minimize possibility of ignition (either by covering/surrounding the wings with foam or pumping the remaining fuel out). According to Pilotaydin's information, approx 4 tons of fuel would have been left in the tanks if everything went as planned. 4 tons would be enough for a significant fire. Then again, perhaps it's not a procedure to foam the tanks if the wreckage is situated on soft ground.

Theory #2
Accidental stalling of the aircraft - In 2001, a Vladivostokavia Tu-154M crashed near Irkutsk while on approach (more details: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010704-0). The crew used manual throttles (a SOP on the Tu-154), and autopilot in the vertical channel. The airspeed decreased, and it went unnoticed by the crew, resulting in a 16-degree AoA, a deep stall, flat spin, crash, and death of 145 persons.

If for some reason the Turkish crew chose to not use autothrottle, and missed the airspeed decreasing at some point, they could have lost control of the aircraft and stalled. This, of course, again, is quite unlikely, since the pilot flying the ILS would keep his eyes on the PFD most of the time, which on the B738 as well as most other modern aircraft, displays all critical information (pitch, bank, vertical speed, ILS, F/D, and of course, airspeed) in a compact and very readable form.

Hopefully the investigation will reveal the cause of the accident so measures can be taken to avoid such a tragedy in the future.

Condolences to those who lost their family and friends today, and best of luck to those who have to make a recovery either mentally or physically, or both.

Cheers,
OV735

Edit: typos.

[Edited 2009-02-25 16:34:17]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-02-25 16:39:31 and read 21880 times.



Quoting OV735 (Reply 180):
I can only think of two speculative theories.

I believe these are very useful theories, because they outline what [i]may]/i]have happened. Ruling out causes such as fuel starvation, as I have mentioned in a topic we've beaten to death, is premature.

It can be a subtle distinction, but a very important one. I hope people continue to post their well-thought out opinions as usual..

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 16:40:10 and read 21907 times.



Quoting OV735 (Reply 180):
4 tons would be enough for a significant fire. Then again, perhaps it's not a procedure to foam the tanks if the wreckage is situated on soft ground

yes it would, but the center tanks would be dry and the fuel would be in the wing tanks...and they didn't seem to comprimised to me....and also, the temp was cold outside and there was no real heat source to set the fire off, and the ground looks moist/wet, so all favoring a non combustible environment, plus the impact speed was low

there were reports of small fires were there not at the VERY beginning?!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 16:42:07 and read 21820 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 181):
Ruling out causes such as fuel starvation, as I have mentioned in a topic we've beaten to death, is premature.

do you enjoy implying things?

when are you going to stop judging peoples' ideas

just because you don't agree, that doesn't make your ideology a better one!

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 16:45:15 and read 21740 times.

some people are interested in why the a/c went down

others just want to feel better by playing with words and waiting for the big I told you so moment....sad people died tonight...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Prebennorholm
Posted 2009-02-25 16:47:57 and read 21640 times.



Quoting Deaphen (Reply 164):
I had posted pics of both engines in reply 152. One is more battered and the other one's blades are almost intact!

Yes, the best and most informative pics from the site. Thanks! I noticed that 20 seconds after posting my questions.

Also thanks to B747forever for poststing a link to a picture of both engine. The #1 engine must have come to rest slightly further in front of the plane and seems to have been rolling to rest. It is hard to see, but the fan could be mostly undamaged which makes it impossible (at least for me) to judge whether it was delivering power at impact. But at least a double bird strike like on US 1549 seems unlikely when seeing those two fans.

Thanks a lot Deaphen and B747forever.

This tragedy really makes no sense to me. Had it been awful weather, had the plane experinced trouble en route, or had the captain not been a most experienced instructor pilot etc. No, it makes no sence.

Anyway an officer of the local Danish CAA was on the radio news tonight. He dared to tell us that he couldn't imagine anything else but fuel starvation. I can't believe that, but then I'm not in a position to rule it out.

But three men in the cockpit, including an experienced instructor, that they should foul up tank selection with catastrophic consequense on one of the world's most modern airliners with hundreds of alarm bells, no it can't be true.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 16:52:30 and read 21596 times.

The Captain was very experienced, I have flown with him, he was a wonderful person and a great instructor...

I respect anyone that thinks it was fuel starvation, i just don't agree with it, from personal experience that's all.

Does anyone else see how short the ground track is from supposed touchdown to final resting position?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Crownvic
Posted 2009-02-25 16:58:30 and read 21281 times.

Pilotaydin, dont take it personal everyone here is an expert speculator and a wannabe investigator...It was a sad day for you and youyr airline....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: ULMFlyer
Posted 2009-02-25 17:00:05 and read 21334 times.

I haven't seen this posted before, so despite my efforts to read all posts in all threads, I might have missed it.

There's info out there that someone with a Mode-S receiver (didn't even know these things existed) got readings of 149 kts (GS, I think), ~4-5 km out, which would indicate a normal approach (Pilotaydin?) However, last reading was 88 kts.

Now, I know this is hearsay at this point and I hate to post uncorroborated info. But at least it has some numbers and perhaps someone will be able to verify it.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Kl911
Posted 2009-02-25 17:00:30 and read 21319 times.



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 187):
Anyway an officer of the local Danish CAA was on the radio news tonight. He dared to tell us that he couldn't imagine anything else but fuel starvation. I can't believe that, but then I'm not in a position to rule it out.

But three men in the cockpit, including an experienced instructor, that they should foul up tank selection with catastrophic consequense on one of the world's most modern airliners with hundreds of alarm bells, no it can't be true.

I hate to be negative, but does anyone remember the Fedex MD11, where one crewmember attacked the flightcrew with an axe or hamer in order to let the plane crash?

1, It could explain the 3rd person in the cockpit
2, it could explain the way of the crash, he won and cut of the engines.
3. it could explain the very long police investigation in the cockpit section.

It¨s all speculation at this time........ let¨s wait...

KL911

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 17:03:10 and read 21279 times.



Quoting Crownvic (Reply 190):

And that's why this forum exists...i mean we're here to discuss it, if we were here to just read it, then we'd go on some AP website and read it...

I don't expect anyone's sympathy, im quite cold actually when it comes to this kinda stuff, but i believe in respect...respecting someone having an opinion

if you notice, i never told anyone they cant think certain things, i just said i dont support or agree with them...

but other people here, they have a problem with me actually thinking certain things tha doesnt fit their own, and now im in the penalty box of shifting the focus, or speculating..
who cares if i speculate, you think the NTSB or the Dutch are gonna need my signature to make public their findings...
dont worry so much about other people having differnt throughts than you  Smile)

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Virgin744
Posted 2009-02-25 17:04:09 and read 21201 times.

PilotAydin,
Basin sag olsun! Its very noble of you to add your insight at a difficult time like this without getting too personal and hopefully air transportation learns from what went wrong here and are wiser for it.


Virgin744

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 17:07:05 and read 21279 times.



Quoting Kl911 (Reply 193):
1, It could explain the 3rd person in the cockpit

The news here is that the pilot in the jumpseat was the F/O acting as safety officer, and the F/O in line training was in the right seat...
this is common at TK for the first maybe 20-25 sectors of a 40 sector type rating LOFT.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Kl911
Posted 2009-02-25 17:08:09 and read 21112 times.

PilotAydin,

There won¨t be more info anyway tonight. try to rest and sleep instead of nitpicking at eachother here.

Lets save this thread to the crash itself. Tomorrow we¨ll probably know more. Take care!

KL911

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 17:14:41 and read 20984 times.



Quoting Kl911 (Reply 198):
Lets save this thread to the crash itself

good idea...let's do that. We'll let CNN do the work tonight and we can speculate tomorrow  Smile

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: OV735
Posted 2009-02-25 17:14:46 and read 21143 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 182):
yes it would, but the center tanks would be dry and the fuel would be in the wing tanks...and they didn't seem to comprimised to me....and also, the temp was cold outside and there was no real heat source to set the fire off, and the ground looks moist/wet, so all favoring a non combustible environment, plus the impact speed was low

Point taken, as I said, I'm not sure if foaming the wings would even be considered in these conditions when the risk of ignition is that low.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 188):
Does anyone else see how short the ground track is from supposed touchdown to final resting position?

The track is around 1½ to 2 plane lenghts, so less than 100 meters, I would say, which in my opinion says that forward speed must have been quite slow. Of course the soft terrain probably also had a role in the short distance traveled on the ground, but all signs show that it wasn't a CFIT, and the aircraft was stalled before impact.

On a 3-degree glideslope, with 2 to 2½ kilometers to threshold, the aircraft would have been at around 150 meters, which in case of a stall, would not have given the crew much time to react.

The reason for stalling is difficult to determine at this time with the information the media has given, and without even knowing whether the engines were running until the end or not. Birdstrike in both holes (a'la the Hudson Floatplane), fuel starvation, some sort of mechanical or electronic failure, human error, and the list goes on...

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Scooter01
Posted 2009-02-25 17:17:19 and read 21228 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 189):
Pilotaydin, I don't disagree with your assumptions or opinions per se. I object to your conclusion that because they took off with 12000kg of fuel aboard and because the trip should ordinarily consume 8000kg, that it couldn't possibly be a fuel issue. If you had simply admitted to premature speculation, it would have been a non-event. But choosing to sling arrows and attack those who pointed out a minor error has turned this molehill into the Himalaya.

Reading in another forum about this terrible accident, I find this post:

"TK pilot on airliners.net claims the plane took off with 12.2 tons of fuel on board, with trip fuel calculated at 8.1.

TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 3 — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

Post #72"


There are probably other people out there that follow other forums too, and we all know how bad the rumor-mill can get. -Think about it....

Scooter01

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-02-25 17:20:23 and read 20996 times.



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 202):
There are probably other people out there that follow other forums too, and we all know how bad the rumor-mill can get. -Think about it....

Good eyes Scooter01. There have been fair warnings about the risks of public blogging by airline company staff. Don't let emotions jeopardize careers.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: EMA747
Posted 2009-02-25 17:20:43 and read 20992 times.

In the pics in reply 152 one engine is pretty much undamaged as far as fan blades but the other is all battered up and covered in mud. If you look closely the mud appears on one edge of each fan blade like the engine was turning when it hit some mud.

Pilotaydin I don't think you deserve all the bashing. When can't whoever has a problem with his and anyone elses points use the pm function to have a rant at each other and not clog up these threads with your bickering?

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: SuseJ772
Posted 2009-02-25 17:20:43 and read 20980 times.



Quoting PW100 (Reply 140):
Highly unlikely as there was no severe weahter whatsoever in the vicinity of the airport. Weather was very calm.

Isn't that the point of windshear? It just shows up out of the blue in seemingly "good" conditions.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-02-25 17:26:30 and read 21049 times.



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 202):
There are probably other people out there that follow other forums too, and we all know how bad the rumor-mill can get. -Think about it....

IT IS ON EVERY TURKISH NEWSPAPER WEBSITE AAAAAAAAND on TURKISH AVIATION FORUMS....... IT's PUBLIC and in the PRESS and the friggin Airline Pilot Association Even had a Press conference about it here..
Dear God....

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Deaphen
Posted 2009-02-25 17:29:12 and read 20720 times.

The black boxes will be investigated very soon... so everyone should just hold their horses... no point bikering over speculation.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Kl911
Posted 2009-02-25 17:30:25 and read 20731 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 206):
Dear God....

Not Allah?  Smile


Anyway, let them.... concentrate on this disaster and on your self. ok?

KL911

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-02-25 17:40:22 and read 20362 times.



Quoting Deaphen (Reply 208):
The black boxes will be investigated very soon...

Will be very very interesting to hear about it when the investigation is done.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 17:45:23 and read 20266 times.



Quoting Part147 (Reply 186):
you're on my ru list!

and mine, too  Wink

Not being an expert, I heard a comparison with Air Transat flight that suffered fuel starvation as well as with Air Canada's case that seemed strange to me. Can those flights be compared, at all? Both previously mentioned flights did suffer fuel starvation but in the middle of their flights. This particular case of THY accident is way different. Even if there was a mistake made at the ramp or some problem with pumps, why it wasn't noticed sooner? IST-AMS is not such a short flight and if that was the case, this problem would have been noticed much earlier and not literally seconds away from landing.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Aleksandar
Posted 2009-02-25 17:47:30 and read 20185 times.



Quoting Kl911 (Reply 209):
Not Allah? Smile

I suppose it is the same  Wink

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Atlturbine
Posted 2009-02-25 18:07:12 and read 19726 times.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 194):
And that's why this forum exists...i mean we're here to discuss it, if we were here to just read it, then we'd go on some AP website and read it...

Couldn't agree more sir! To those of you who do not like speculation about aviation tragedies....you should avoid any television, newspapers & this site especially. Let this gentleman have his say without being crucified for it!

Mitch

[Edited 2009-02-25 18:13:14]

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Patches
Posted 2009-02-25 18:25:42 and read 19411 times.

From all the Video and pics that I have seen from the crash site.I'm quite impresseed with the Dutch EMS system. It looks like they did one hell of a job! I'm involved in The Emergency Medical services business as a part time EMT for an Ambulance crew. I can say the Dutch folks know there business. A lot of the equipment and Ambulance rigs look very Western like in the States. They had a incrediable amount of help out there. Can anybody tell me how long it took to get that much equipment out to the scene? One last thing, I love the Lime green and blue uniforms the medics wear.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Pihero
Posted 2009-02-25 18:29:30 and read 19311 times.

Late for barging in.
Anet has become very strange, these days.
Either you people share (?) the same love for aviation - I mean real aviation not flitesim -, and we can /could have a civil and fruitful discussion, or this forum has just become a particular sort of ego trip for a bunch of frustrated ungrown kids - whatever their age.
As with every crash, the first cause people ever think of is "fuel starvation"...and most of the times, it turns out to be wrong.
Why ? A little bit of a modicum of a wee dram of respect for the man in front -who incidentally lost his life - would make one think that he knows...HE KNOWS at least some parts of his job and somehow, some time in his life, he has learnt to read his gauges and his instruments...
Now... To my simple mind, an impending fuel starvation is a serious matter, wouldn't you think ?
In this case, have you guys heard of any "minimum" or "Low fuel" situation reported to any ATC ?
If not - and I haven't heard any of those -, Go look somewhere else for a cause.
Have your fun in another garden.
And leave Pilotaydin alone.
Or better, take notice of what he has written, along with the likes of Preben N... He could know a damn sight more than you'll ever do.

Cheers !

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2009-02-25 18:31:04 and read 19275 times.



Quoting OV735 (Reply 180):

Theory #1
Fuel starvation - A mistake at fuel loading (wrong quantity) is already extremely improbable, since an error by the ramp personnel would have been detected in the cockpit preparation phase by the crew. A leak is also improbable, but it could happen.

And the pilots didn't check the fuel state once during the flight? And the instruments didn't warn them? Seems a bit unlikely.

Quoting OV735 (Reply 180):
Theory #2
Accidental stalling of the aircraft - In 2001, a Vladivostokavia Tu-154M crashed near Irkutsk while on approach (more details: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010704-0). The crew used manual throttles (a SOP on the Tu-154), and autopilot in the vertical channel. The airspeed decreased, and it went unnoticed by the crew, resulting in a 16-degree AoA, a deep stall, flat spin, crash, and death of 145 persons.

There are instruments and stick shaker to warn pilots. But I suppose it could have happened quickly.


Theory #3
Wind shear


Theory #4
Suicidal avians.


Theory #5
Pilot gone mad.


Theory #6
Meteor strike. Hey, it's possible.  Wink Very unlikely though.

Quoting Kl911 (Reply 209):
Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 206):
Dear God....

Not Allah? Smile

Allah is simply Arabic for "God" or "The Lord" you know.

Topic: RE: TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 4
Username: WILCO737
Posted 2009-02-25 18:35:56 and read 19485 times.

Discussion maybe continued here:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4331144/


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