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Topic: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-02-28 10:09:31 and read 12989 times.

Again today EK has made statements that were picked up in at least one newspaper in Canada. This time made by SrVP Andrew Parker.

The gist is the same as recent statements where Emirates wants to increase Toronto to daily and add Calgary and Vancouver at some point. They are touting the same spin off figures of tourism and business. All points previously stated.

The new information is that they state loads out of YYZ are around the 90% level. If that is the case then it makes sense that an A380 would replace the 77W service, since the bilateral doesn't specify the number of seats but rather flights.

They also are talking about a First Class lounge in Toronto and the contruction and economic spin offs of it.

The economic numbers sound rather high to me and would love to know what an independant economist's take would be. But the media push seems to be on high setting.

http://www.thestar.com/article/594534

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2009-02-28 10:26:54 and read 12943 times.

In the current environment, I would imagine that any potential for growth in traffic should be pursued. As to an "independent economist's take", I'd say that EK's traffic statistics should easily be verifiable, both as numbers and load factors, so if they say 90% loads, I think that's probably accurate.

If EK can bring this kind of growth to YYC or YVR, why should the Canadians deny it, especially with traffic to current destinations on a downward trend (I'm assuming)?

What would be the upside of denying EK access?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Danfearn77
Posted 2009-02-28 10:50:13 and read 12871 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
What would be the upside of denying EK access?

Allowing AC the access to those pax numbers. Thats all i can think of really.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Dabth747
Posted 2009-02-28 10:58:57 and read 12832 times.

I think the solution would be a codeshare with AC, for daily flights for EK to YYZ? Would that not work??

I know EK tends to sort of be on their own as they dont seem to be interested in joining any alliances or even aquiring any other airline....

however they do codeshare a lot, for example with SA, TG to name two from Star Alliance

I believe they also codeshare with CO and a whole bunch of others....

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2009-02-28 11:03:12 and read 12804 times.

Bottom line is that Canada sits on restrictive bilaterals with many countries and can be very difficult to cajole to open its markets up further.
Look at the experience of Singapore and Turkey amongst others trying to deal with the Canadians for many years.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2009-02-28 11:33:32 and read 12694 times.



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 2):
Allowing AC the access to those pax numbers. Thats all i can think of really.

Yes, but AC has shown very little interest in the Middle East and/or India. Canada needs to put its interests above those of AC; if it won't fly there and give access to new markets for trade and commerce, then EK (and others) should be allowed to.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: PilotRecruit
Posted 2009-02-28 12:21:18 and read 12594 times.

This isn't going to be incredibly productive for the thread, but man would I love to see an Emirates bird in YYC!

From what I've seen, a lot of BA's business in Calgary seems to be from people connecting onwards to Asia such as India and Pakistan. Based on this, one would assume that there would be plenty of business for Emirates to tap into, but I would imagine that a daily flight wouldn't be sustainable, at least at first anyways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently the bilateral between Canada and the UAE allows 6 weekly flights and that is split between Emirates and Etihad?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-02-28 12:30:29 and read 12563 times.



Quoting PilotRecruit (Reply 6):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently the bilateral between Canada and the UAE allows 6 weekly flights and that is split between Emirates and Etihad?

Correct EK flies 3 days and EY flies the other 3. All are to YYZ.

The fees for EK to go to daily to YYZ for the GTAA would be significant. So obviously the management of the airport is very much in favour.

At the same time, if they don't go daily the chances of an A380 being added to the run once there are enough in the fleet are pretty good. And the bragging rights for having the A380 flying to YYZ would be great for the management of the airport.

Either way the YYZ GTAA management wins. The only way they lose is if EK gets angry and drops Canada all together and that is not likely to happen with 90% loads.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Avek00
Posted 2009-02-28 12:33:06 and read 12551 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Canada needs to put its interests above those of AC

Canada is doing exactly that, by maintaining aviation policies that promote a viable Canadian airline industry. Canadian transport officials long ago realized the threat posed by the third-country air carriers - arguably, the Canadians realized the threat even before the Americans did -- and have wisely limited the ability of the EK's and SQ's of the world to wreak havoc in the Canadian market by restricting market access.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-02-28 12:34:58 and read 12544 times.



Quoting Dabth747 (Reply 3):
I think the solution would be a codeshare with AC, for daily flights for EK to YYZ? Would that not work??

The problem is that there isn't much O&D traffic between Canada and the UAE. I'm sure by far the majority of EK traffic is to/from India and other points beyond DXB. Canada has always been reluctant to liberalize access for carriers that depend largely on 6th (and 5th) freedom traffic to make service to/from Canada economic, unless there are some offsetting benefits for Canadian carriers.It's basically the same reason why SQ was never permitted to operate more than 3 flights weekely SIN-ICN-YVR.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Yes, but AC has shown very little interest in the Middle East and/or India.

AC serves TLV and was on the verge of launching YUL-BEY service a few years ago until the Canadian government withdrew their approval for the service, presumably for security-related reasons.

AC has served India on 3 separate occasions in the past but for various reasons it was never profitable (seasonal traffic, little high yield business traffic).

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2009-02-28 12:42:38 and read 12513 times.



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Thread starter):
The gist is the same as recent statements where Emirates wants to increase Toronto to daily and add Calgary and Vancouver at some point.

In other news, water is wet.  spit 

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
In the current environment, I would imagine that any potential for growth in traffic should be pursued.

 checkmark 

There are certain markets where if EK were to be allowed more flights, they could instantly increase the cash flow.

Recently Australia and India Bilaterals were expanded. I'm still in shock at quantity of new Australia service. The India Bilateral was a small enough jump that they'll be back at the negotiating table every two or three years as they have for a while.

Canada and Germany stick out as the two nations EK wants to expand flights to. I really doubt they'll be allowed to jump to 21 (or more) flights per week from the current 3 to Canada. With Germany, Berlin and Stuttgart are the two obvious expansion points. But I'm sure EK would like rights to more frequencies to FRA, MUC, and maybe one of the other currently served cities?

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
What would be the upside of denying EK access?

The political thought is to send the traffic to AC. The reality is it will slow Canadian economic growth. Protectionism doesn't really work that well...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Bottom line is that Canada sits on restrictive bilaterals with many countries and can be very difficult to cajole to open its markets up further.

 checkmark  Hence why AC never seems to be in the 'shape' to compete with the best run airlines in the world. The downside of protectionism is AC isn't structured to compete in an open skies environment.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-02-28 12:53:17 and read 12489 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
The reality is it will slow Canadian economic growth. Protectionism doesn't really work that well...

How would it improve Canadian economic growth? There is no shortage of airline capacity between Canada and the UAE. Apart from the existing EK and EY service, virtually all major European carriers, and several U.S. carriers, offer good online connections via their hubs.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
The downside of protectionism is AC isn't structured to compete in an open skies environment.

AC has done very well in one of the largest Open Skies markets in the world -- Canada-USA. They are by far the largest carrier on Canada-US routes. And Canada has recently agreed to Open Skies with the EU and Korea. Other major AC international markets including the UK and Germany are also very close to Open Skies.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2009-02-28 13:02:35 and read 12455 times.



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 8):
and have wisely limited the ability of the EK's and SQ's of the world to wreak havoc in the Canadian market by restricting market access.

Wreak havoc  Confused

I call it providing consumer more choice via schedules, fares and service levels.

All the Canadian government to date has done is to prop up Air Canada monopolitic position to the detriment of Canadanian and global consumers. Terrible to see a nations policy built around a single company.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-02-28 13:02:57 and read 12454 times.

I wonder if these open letters are having any effect at all.

Are people reading this and then immediately calling up their MPs or writing letters to parliament. I am sure with the economic situation right now (such a cliche statement these days - but true) I don't think the average Canadian consumer would really care too much. Other than certain businesses and airport authorities.

Somebody mentioned the large number of connecting passengers on BA out of YYC to South Asia. Well if there are that many, why has BA downguaged the YYC service to a 763 from a 772. I still doubt the true viability of numbers out of Western Canada to the Middle East.

I doubt these political letters will have much if any impact on the bilaterals. The minister in charge of such bilaterals didn't sound like she was too moved by these letters, stating that the current capacity is sufficient. Another political spin perhaps, but in any case, doesn't sound like any changes are on the near horizon. So EK, just keep writing your letters.. and see what happens.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Avek00
Posted 2009-02-28 13:05:20 and read 12446 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
Protectionism doesn't really work that well...

When used effectively, it's a superb tool for developing and maintaining a viable aviation industry. Virtually all large and succesful aviation markets on the planet engage in varying degrees of formal and informal protectionism, and it more or less works.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SInGAPORE_AIR
Posted 2009-02-28 13:25:21 and read 12381 times.



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 14):
it's a superb tool for developing and maintaining a viable aviation industry



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 8):
and have wisely limited the ability of the EK's of the world to wreak havoc in the Canadian market by restricting market access

Well that's a view point. It may not be shared by various aviation consultancies and IATA but it's a perspective.

I think it's very myopic to see the liberalisation of air services in the context of the aviation industy only. There are bigger things in the world than airlines.

"The Greater Toronto Airports Authority... says that allowing Emirates and its competitor, Etihad Airways, to increase flights to the United Arab Emirates would produce an economic windfall – more than 500 jobs, $20 million in salaries and $13.5 million in tax revenues."

EK and EY are hardly "wreak(ing) havoc" in the Canadian market place. Instead, they are offering a win-win situation for them, potential passengers/traffic and the Canadian economy (taken as a whole).

If one assumes the "havoc" refers to Air Canada being adversely affected, quite frankly then, Air Canada will be forced to become a better company in terms of improved efficiencies, offering improved products and services to attract customers and to invest in equipment (aircraft). Now isn't that a thought? - having to improve due to effective competition?

And let's not forget about the externalities that have been demonstrated by more liberal air transport links.

I support Emirates in their quest to offer greater connectivity to Canadian passengersThe Greater Toronto Airports Authority, which runs Pearson airport, says that allowing Emirates and its competitor, Etihad Airways, to increase flights to the United Arab Emirates would produce an economic windfall – more than 500 jobs, $20 million in salaries and $13.5 million in tax revenues.

Kudos to Emirates for pursuing this.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
In the current environment, I would imagine that any potential for growth in traffic should be pursued



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Canada needs to put its interests above those of AC; if it won't fly there and give access to new markets for trade and commerce, then EK (and others) should be allowed to.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-02-28 13:35:36 and read 12361 times.



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
All the Canadian government to date has done is to prop up Air Canada monopolistic position to the detriment of Canadanian and global consumers. Terrible to see a nations policy built around a single company.

How many major AC international markets have no competition? Very few. AC certainly had no influence when HKG-based low-cost carrier Oasis Hong Kong started their short-lived service HKG-YVR alongside CX.

What markets do you consider monopolies for AC? In a few markets where AC may be the only direct operator (Australia, for example), that's only because airlines from the other country have chosen not to withdraw from the market. Is AC preventing QF from operating to Canada? They can start service any time they want.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2009-02-28 13:49:29 and read 12307 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
What markets do you consider monopolies for AC?

Monopolistic as in the sense government policy favors protecting AC and limiting further service or competition.

For over 5 years now, I have been dealing with a client intent on increasing service to Canada with the government openly stating they would not action the request unless AC concurred. Only after years of other bilateral trade pressures, and AC softening its stance due changes in alliance players does it look like the service will finally become reality. Amazing back room process for a first world country that is so dependent on foreign commerce.  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Avek00
Posted 2009-02-28 13:58:25 and read 12256 times.



Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 15):
think it's very myopic to see the liberalisation of air services in the context of the aviation industy only.

I don't, and neither do countries that engage in overt and subtle protectionism. What we DO see, however, is that a modern economy depends on a viable aviation sector, and for most industrialized countries that means having one or more viable home-country airlines. And the generally poor economics of commercial aviation favors implementing degrees and forms of protectionism (and again, Open Skies, if used strategically, IS a form of protectionism against third-country carriers like Emirates) to keep the home-country carriers viable.

Indeed, if taken too far, liberalization for its own sake can be downright destructive and far more harmful to economic growth than protectionist policies.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: ETStar
Posted 2009-02-28 14:09:16 and read 12225 times.



Quoting Dabth747 (Reply 3):
I think the solution would be a codeshare with AC, for daily flights for EK to YYZ? Would that not work??

Why bind EK to an agreement it may not want to work in?

Quoting PilotRecruit (Reply 6):
This isn't going to be incredibly productive for the thread, but man would I love to see an Emirates bird in YYC!

Ditto! And the fares that will be a lot more competitive.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 8):

Canada is doing exactly that, by maintaining aviation policies that promote a viable Canadian airline industry. Canadian transport officials long ago realized the threat posed by the third-country air carriers - arguably, the Canadians realized the threat even before the Americans did -- and have wisely limited the ability of the EK's and SQ's of the world to wreak havoc in the Canadian market by restricting market access.

And ... is this supposed to be a good thing? What happened to market liberalization? This is being done at the expense of consumers who have to dish out $$ to go from one point to another etc. I don't have to tell you the $ difference between flying from the US west coast to the US east coast, vs Canada west coast and Canada east coast. The very same thing can be said about flying overseas from Canada.

The viable Canadian industry they are promoting still has us limited to 2 airlines serving us coast to coast, with every other one that attempts to enter the market either being eaten up or led out of business. Viable? At the end of the day, it hurts consumers, limits mobility both within the country and outside, and limits economic activity.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):

How would it improve Canadian economic growth? There is no shortage of airline capacity between Canada and the UAE. Apart from the existing EK and EY service, virtually all major European carriers, and several U.S. carriers, offer good online connections via their hubs.

There is a shortage in the sense that one is limited to 3x per week on either airline via Toronto. If EK wants to serve Calgary and Vancouver, it'd open up a seamless route to Dubai, a great connection point to the middle east and/or Indian subcontinent. Calgary being the oil capital of Canada would greatly benefit for such a connection. Didn't Abu Dhabi's investment arm just announce the purchase of Nova Chemicals, Canada’s largest chemical maker? If such activities enable Canadian companies to have more of a global reach, why limit their potential by making travel more prohibitive and complicated?

While I could be wrong on my timeline, didn't EK's service to Houston come after Halliburton moved its HQ to Dubai? And how successful is EK's service to Houston? Isn't QR also joining in? Imagine what this could do to Canadian cities?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
For over 5 years now, I have been dealing with a client intent on increasing service to Canada with the government openly stating they would not action the request unless AC concurred. Only after years of other bilateral trade pressures, and AC softening its stance due changes in alliance players does it look like the service will finally become reality. Amazing back room process for a first world country that is so dependent on foreign commerce. Yeah sure

AC? Enough said.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-02-28 14:14:31 and read 12208 times.



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 18):
I don't, and neither do countries that engage in overt and subtle protectionism.

Countries that engage in overt protectionism aren't doing very well. The extreme expense related to flying in South America hurts many businesses and keep many more "grounded". And despite all that I know that many pilots aren't going to tell you they are racking it in.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SInGAPORE_AIR
Posted 2009-02-28 14:16:05 and read 12203 times.



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 18):
we DO see, however, is that a modern economy depends on a viable aviation sector, and for most industrialized countries that means having one or more viable home-country airlines

A viable aviation sector, or in more plain words, a market for passenger and cargo transportation by air, can be supported by inviting competition and connectivity from non-indigenous airlines such as Emirates.

Those airlines that argue against liberalisation generally are afraid of competition and the need for rationalisation. Further, those airlines are indeed myopic because that is their business and they do not have to care about anything else.

Governments should instead consider the benefits of increased tourism and business traffic (in both directions) and the externalities of air transport rather than seeing airlines as businesses that need to be cuddled and protected from the reality of globalisation and capitalism.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SInGAPORE_AIR
Posted 2009-02-28 14:22:56 and read 12190 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
There is no shortage of airline capacity between Canada and the UAE. Apart from the existing EK and EY service, virtually all major European carriers, and several U.S. carriers, offer good online connections via their hubs.

Not to you specifically as an individual or this particular route, but could the prospect of something magical called a non-stop air service provided by airline(s) that offer above average standards of comfort and amenities lure people away from these "good online connections via their (incumbent) hubs" be extremely scary?

Let consumer's choose and let them have the choice.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-02-28 15:56:01 and read 12016 times.



Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 15):

"The Greater Toronto Airports Authority... says that allowing Emirates and its competitor, Etihad Airways, to increase flights to the United Arab Emirates would produce an economic windfall – more than 500 jobs, $20 million in salaries and $13.5 million in tax revenues."

Of course they'd say that. But I'm not taking those figures at face value.

Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
If EK wants to serve Calgary and Vancouver, it'd open up a seamless route to Dubai, a great connection point to the middle east and/or Indian subcontinent. Calgary being the oil capital of Canada would greatly benefit for such a connection.

This is hardly a convincing argument for promoting UAE service to YVR or YYC, which already have seamless connections to Dubai & Abu Dhabi and one-stop connections to the Middle East, India or to any oil centre on the planet.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
For over 5 years now, I have been dealing with a client intent on increasing service to Canada with the government openly stating they would not action the request unless AC concurred.



Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
AC? Enough said.

Your impressions of AC's influence on the federal government, I think, are overly ambitious.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 22):
could the prospect of something magical called a non-stop air service provided by airline(s) that offer above average standards of comfort and amenities lure people away from these "good online connections via their (incumbent) hubs" be extremely scary?

Not at all. But could they be economically viable? Is there that much O&D to the UAE? To many of EK's onward connecting cities, going through DXB is a big detour for Canadians.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Avek00
Posted 2009-02-28 16:09:47 and read 11981 times.



Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
What happened to market liberalization?

It's a policy best pursued in reasoned moderation, like any other. Over-liberalization, like excessive protectionism, is counterproductive.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 21):
A viable aviation sector, or in more plain words, a market for passenger and cargo transportation by air, can be supported by inviting competition and connectivity from non-indigenous airlines such as Emirates.

No it can't. This hasn't proven true anywhere in the world. Not even in Australia, often cited as some sort of model for allowing foreign entrants into the domestic marketplace. The foreign carrier will come in, cherry pick a select few profitable routes, and drive the home-country carrier either into ruin or into drastic cutbacks that cause a reduction or complete loss of service to many communities.


Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
The viable Canadian industry they are promoting still has us limited to 2 airlines serving us coast to coast,

Because that's about the most Canada's population and traffic flows can sustain.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2009-02-28 16:21:28 and read 11947 times.

If there's enough traffic for EK and EY, there should be enough traffic for AC, as well. Then they can also try and steal some Asian traffic.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2009-02-28 16:31:48 and read 12286 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 23):
Your impressions of AC's influence on the federal government, I think, are overly ambitious.

I wish I was.

Having personally participated in several rounds of talks, I've heard with my own ears the Canadian representatives state they were unwilling to grant requested rights, as there was no reciprocal interest by Canadaian carriers in such service. They even have suggest people go make a deal with Air Canada directly for some form of code-share instead -- clearly bargaining with ACs pocket book in mind.

Additionally I have witnessed Canadian authorities tie up air service discussions with other unrelated bilateral issues including items such as double taxation treaties of all things.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-02-28 17:09:44 and read 12207 times.

The other side of the coin is the Canadian government requires some things from Air Canada no other carrier (WestJet or American carrier) has to comply with that still hang on from the days it was a Crown Corporation. No other carrier has to have completely bilingual service on all flights. I have been on flights in an RJ out of DCA to YYZ that have two flight attendants because another was needed to provide the francophone component.

When AC cuts service to smaller communities it hits the headlines and the pressure that is brought behind the scenes by local and federal levels of government is substantial. Canada is a mouse that sleeps with an elephant. So while many industries are totally integrated with products started on one side of the border and finished on the other and vice versa, the airline industry isn't one of them. And for the record AC speaks up for true open skies whenever they can. They would love to fly legs between US Cities.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2009-02-28 17:16:48 and read 12208 times.

Having worked in the UAE since 2002, based out of Alberta, I can tell you I would have jumped at the chance to fly direct to Dubai, instead of using FRA or LHR...unless I was forced to fly EK coach...which I find very uncomfortable. I'd fly EY or AC, though.

Connecting through Europe blows...but not as much as EK economy and, unfortunately economy is all our company will spring for.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Wedgetail737
Posted 2009-02-28 17:25:35 and read 12182 times.

I think it would make perfect sense that EK or QR would fly from the UAE to YVR. I'm sure Vancouver proper has a prominant Arab population. I know for sure that Abbotsford, BC has a large Arab community.

Is EK still eyeing SEA for service??

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Traveladdict
Posted 2009-02-28 17:25:57 and read 12215 times.



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 7):
The only way they lose is if EK gets angry and drops Canada all together

SQ much? Haha... with YYZ, not with YVR, cuz I think they dropped YVR just because of the economy not because of Canadian protectionism laws.

Quoting PilotRecruit (Reply 6):
see an Emirates bird in YYC!

I wonder how this routing would be... from DXB-YYC, would it fly east over the Pacific, or west over the Atlantic, or north over the North Pole?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-02-28 17:39:20 and read 12158 times.



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 29):
I know for sure that Abbotsford, BC has a large Arab community.

They must be hiding. Lived there for two years and still spend weeks at a time there and can count visible Arabic people there on one hand. Are you confusing Arabs with South Asians, of which there are plenty?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: PVG
Posted 2009-02-28 17:42:19 and read 12140 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
The political thought is to send the traffic to AC. The reality is it will slow Canadian economic growth. Protectionism doesn't really work that well...

True, but competing against a potentially government subsidized entity forces the issue sometimes. Until EK is willing to open their books for review, I wouldn't be nice to them either. The fact is that everyone is full of it. Everyone complains about protectionism and government subsidies until it affects them directly, then suddenly government money and intervention is OK.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Wedgetail737
Posted 2009-02-28 17:45:07 and read 12142 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 31):
They must be hiding. Lived there for two years and still spend weeks at a time there and can count visible Arabic people there on one hand. Are you confusing Arabs with South Asians, of which there are plenty?

Define South Asians? Are you referring to Indians or Pakistani? I could be. However, when we exchange our US money with Canadian currency at an Abbotsford Toronto Dominion bank, we are definitely the minority whilst standing in line.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: PVG
Posted 2009-02-28 17:48:30 and read 12120 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
All the Canadian government to date has done is to prop up Air Canada monopolitic position to the detriment of Canadanian and global consumers. Terrible to see a nations policy built around a single company.

Maybe stability is more important than consumer choice sometimes. Suggest that you read this before complaining about Canadian government intervention: www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/opinion/28tedesco.html?ref=opinion

[Edited 2009-02-28 17:52:10]

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-02-28 18:15:55 and read 12052 times.



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 33):
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 31):
They must be hiding. Lived there for two years and still spend weeks at a time there and can count visible Arabic people there on one hand. Are you confusing Arabs with South Asians, of which there are plenty?

Define South Asians? Are you referring to Indians or Pakistani? I could be. However, when we exchange our US money with Canadian currency at an Abbotsford Toronto Dominion bank, we are definitely the minority whilst standing in line.

Oops. I am sure you mustn't mean that how it came out.

Not only are Arabs and South Asian far from neighbours, they don't look much alike - unless you count that both are not caucasion. Their accents are no where near alike either. Having friends in both communities, I am sure that both would be shocked at being confused.

I get confused as an American all the time when I am working in NYC. I take that as a compliment as to my ability to blend in when I want to. However, I am not so complimented when a European thinks I am an American and am very quick to point out I am Canadian.

IF EK were granted rights, and IF the fares were better than anyone elses, I have no doubt that many South Asians in the Lower Mainland (YVR) would fly EK to connect on to India.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-02-28 18:34:21 and read 12003 times.



Quoting Traveladdict (Reply 30):
I wonder how this routing would be... from DXB-YYC, would it fly east over the Pacific, or west over the Atlantic, or north over the North Pole?

I expect it would use the polar routing, passing close to the northern coast of Greenland. Great Circle mileage DXB-YYC is only 200 nm further than DXB-YYZ.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SkySurfer
Posted 2009-02-28 18:37:48 and read 11993 times.

Maybe if airlines were let into Canada then Air Canada would be forced to actually compete instead of charging stupidly high prices to fly from YYZ to any other airport! people talk about protectionism in the USA, but it's about time we looked at it in Canada! Air Canada get to whine and moan about foreign airlines coming into Canada, but that's to protect their bottom line......but if AC are almost the only choice in reality then isn;t that an almost monopoly! Why fly AC when we could choose EK or whomever else....simple, AC charge stupidly high fares to Europe and beyond and even in Canada itself when we should be having a nice choice of other airlines. I can't book a flight to Manchester or Europe with AC because they're wayyy too high, TSC or KL/NW are cheaper and even US come in under their fares. It's about time AC woke up and realized that just because thy're the flag carrier doesn't mean people should pay it.

Get real AC...open your eyes! Stop blocking, stop complaining and if you're gonna charge high fares then make it worthwhile paying for! I Hope Ac gets real competition...i love AC, but they've gotten away with alot for far too long.

Cheers

Stu

Ps....for all you flamers out there.......i can book an TSC flight to England almost cheaper than i can fly Kingston (ON) - YYZ return!!!!!! Go figure

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Fly2YYZ
Posted 2009-02-28 18:46:48 and read 11964 times.



Quoting PVG (Reply 32):
Until EK is willing to open their books for review, I wouldn't be nice to them either. The fact is that everyone is full of it. Everyone complains about protectionism and government subsidies until it affects them directly, then suddenly government money and intervention is OK.

I am very very very happy that someone has mentioned this. While EK wants all these bilateral rights granted to it, there's no transparency as to how they manage to continue growing - without some sort of subsidy from the CEO -- after all he is the President of the Department of Civil Aviation of Dubai. I'm still not understanding if/or lines are being blurred between governement and private corporation. It would be nice for EK to operate to YVR or YYC to DXB then onwards, but at least to have a 50/50 code share with AC or something.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-02-28 18:54:01 and read 11940 times.



Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 37):
Maybe if airlines were let into Canada then Air Canada would be forced to actually compete instead of charging stupidly high prices to fly from YYZ to any other airport!

It's a free market. If people don't want to pay those fares they have other options on routes like YYZ-YGK. I expect that route is operated mainly for connecting passengers to/from longhaul flights. They probably keep the local fares high due to the limited capacity as they don't want to displace longhaul connecting passengers generating more total revenue.

Look at similar shorthaul commuter sectors in the US using small aircraft. Fares to/from those carriers' hubs are also usually very high when there's no direct competition. However on a route like YYZ-YGK you also have decent train and, I assume, bus service, and how long does it take to drive? Less than 3 hours I believe.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Fly2YYZ
Posted 2009-02-28 18:59:14 and read 11932 times.



Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 37):

You make it sound like its all about AC and the government. They are Canada's largest airline, providing daily international service unlike TSC for instance which is still on the lines between being a charter carrier and a scheduled carrier. I'm sure that if any carrier flying the Canadian flag had an issue, or had negative thoughts as to a possible bilateral or codeshare, or frequency increase, then their wishes would be taken into consideration by the government.

Oh by the way.... I guess AC should operate a 330 just for you on the YGK-YYZ route. I mean gosh a flight in which you could drive in less than 2 hours or so.


Quote from the Transport Canada website:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/ace/consultations/blueSkyPolicy.htm

the Government may determine that it would not be in Canada’s best interests to negotiate an Open Skies-type agreement. Considerations that could influence Canada’s approach to bilateral air negotiations include:

* the ability of Canadian airlines to operate services is severely limited by discriminatory airport access and/or facilitation issues;

* the “doing business” environment (e.g., transfer of funds, provisions on double taxation) presents major obstacles to Canadian airlines’ commercial operations;

* the foreign carrier(s) appears not to be behaving in accordance with rational business principles or is protected from normal market disciplines, resulting in a markedly unbalanced playing field vis-à-vis Canadian airlines; and

* the foreign carrier(s) would be reasonably expected to offer a level of service to such an extent that competition in some markets/routes would be significantly reduced or effectively eliminated – resulting in a net loss for Canada.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SkySurfer
Posted 2009-02-28 19:10:02 and read 11880 times.



Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 40):
Oh by the way.... I guess AC should operate a 330 just for you on the YGK-YYZ route. I mean gosh a flight in which you could drive in less than 2 hours or so.

Justify the price to me please?

Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 40):
* the foreign carrier(s) appears not to be behaving in accordance with rational business principles or is protected from normal market disciplines, resulting in a markedly unbalanced playing field vis-à-vis Canadian airlines; and

APPEAR! Proof is ....where?

Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 40):
* the foreign carrier(s) would be reasonably expected to offer a level of service to such an extent that competition in some markets/routes would be significantly reduced or effectively eliminated – resulting in a net loss for Canada.

You mean better service, which is hardly scarce seeing as ive flown Air Canada many times and everytime their service has been dismal!

It's not about AC and the government, it's about AC complaining to the government all the time.....if Westjet wanted to fly transatlantic can you say AC wouldn't file some kind of complaint?

Don't get me wrong, i said before i love Air Canada but that's because this is my adopted county and i love it, but business needs competition and an almost monopoly isn't competition!

Btw, i do drive Kingston - Toronto on a regular basis, but charging an international fee for a 2.5 hour drive seems a bit odd.....explain that to me on a BE1900D or a DHC8-1/2/3?

cheers

Stu

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SkySurfer
Posted 2009-02-28 19:25:09 and read 11850 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
However on a route like YYZ-YGK you also have decent train and, I assume, bus service, and how long does it take to drive? Less than 3 hours I believe.

Decent train yes, but fares to match the airlines and no gurantee of actually having a seat on the train! Problem is that as soon as Inter Canadien was bought out, fares went through the roof. No competition = higher fares. Kingston is halfway between Toronto and Ottawa, and whilst Ottawa has almost been ignored, Toronto is the only way to go so the fares are rediculous. I'd love to see another airline (shame it's not Porter) on the route to see how low fares could go, but it'll never happen unless Kingston becomes a 'hub' for renewable energy, which it's on its way to becoming.

Cheers

Stu

ps, Bus service is dismal at best....you book a ticket and aren't guaranteed a seat

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-02-28 21:21:28 and read 11674 times.

Unfortunately there just isn't enough traffic for Porter to fly into Kingston. Filling a Q400 that Porter uses is a lot different than a Beech. VIA Rail has a nice service but not as quick as the Beech. The various governments involved are once again studying high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal that would encompass Kingston. Upteenth study and who knows even if funded how many years it would take to complete the rail line. Many people south of the border or in the West, drive two hours to get to an airport so I am sure they find the grousing a bit humourous.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: CayMan
Posted 2009-02-28 22:14:11 and read 11595 times.

YYC seems like a long shot at this time. $1bn deficit, much worse than expected economic number in Alberta coupled with severe downturn in Dubai...the lustre has clearly come off Calgary. $40 oil can sustain some normal economic growth but this pipe dream of Calgary as the new financial centre and economic Utopia of western N America has come crashing back to earth in last 2-3 quarters.

Nobody knows the meaning of boom to bust like Alberta does. No reason this should be a flat out bust but I think some Albertans better get their heads around idea the normalcy is returning for now. Will oil creep towards $100 again? No doubt, and YYC will continue to grow on a more reasonable par with national and global economic growth but as a betting man I would happily put money on wager EK will not be in YYC inside of next decade. beyond that, who can really tell....

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2009-02-28 23:13:25 and read 11356 times.



Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 15):
EK and EY are hardly "wreak(ing) havoc" in the Canadian market place. Instead, they are offering a win-win situation for them, potential passengers/traffic and the Canadian economy (taken as a whole).



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):

Monopolistic as in the sense government policy favors protecting AC and limiting further service or competition.

For over 5 years now, I have been dealing with a client intent on increasing service to Canada with the government openly stating they would not action the request unless AC concurred. Only after years of other bilateral trade pressures, and AC softening its stance due changes in alliance players does it look like the service will finally become reality. Amazing back room process for a first world country that is so dependent on foreign commerce.

I can see The Canadians' point, though. Canada is in a geographic position to only (potentially) offer O + D service between Canada and points in The middle East. Emirates, on the other hand, can offer many destinations to India and Asia that Air Canada cannot, by way of their hub in Dubai.

At the moment Air Canada offers service to several European destinations, where travelers can then transfer to other partner airlines if they are going on to Asia or the Middle East. If Emirates is offered a lot more access to Canada, it will bleed passengers from Air Canada, since Air Canada is at one end of the market (geographically), whereas Emirates is in the middle of the market (geographically) - at their hub. Air Canada would be unable to compete with Emirates favorable geographic position.

Another example of this is - look at how so many European airlines no longer offer a Sydney, one-stop flight (KLM, Air France, Alitalia, Lufthansa), yet Emirates thrives on the Kangaroo route. The geographic positioning of the Dubai hub allows them to funnel dozens of flights from Europe to dozens of other flights to the middle and far East, and South Pacific. It is very hard to compete with that.

The potential benefit to the Canadian economy of additional Emirates flights may well be offset by Air Canada losing Eastbound passengers, reducing it's income, possibly causing it to reduce some European frequencies, etc.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Manu
Posted 2009-03-01 05:01:04 and read 10093 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
there isn't much O&D traffic between Canada and the UAE

I know many people who regularly travel between Canada and DXB. I disagree with your assessment, but have no factual basis other than what I've seen actually flying there 3 times recently.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 28):
unless I was forced to fly EK coach...which I find very uncomfortable

I agree. I really dislike the coach. The seats are way too narrow and seat pitch is horrible. AC has a superior product at 32 and only 3x3x3 in their 777's. Being 6 ft I would prefer room over a face mask and other unnecessary service offerings.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: AirNz
Posted 2009-03-01 06:42:59 and read 9605 times.



Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 41):
Justify the price to me please?

Sorry, but the price doesn't have to be justified at all. As a consumer, that person must justify it to themselves as to whether or not they want to purchase any given product. Thus, it's entirely your choice and most adamantly not up to an airline or anyone else to 'justify' their pricing of anything.

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 41):
seeing as ive flown Air Canada many times and everytime their service has been dismal!

Then, if I may ask, why fly them "many times"?

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 42):
Decent train yes, but fares to match the airlines and no gurantee of actually having a seat on the train!



Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 42):
Bus service is dismal at best....you book a ticket and aren't guaranteed a seat

Sorry, but as you've complained of service/fares on air, train and bus services I'm at a loss as to what you actually want. Please correct me with a possible explanation if I'm wrong but this is coming across as you wanting/expecting transportation only on your terms.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2009-03-01 07:20:08 and read 9416 times.



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Thread starter):
The new information is that they state loads out of YYZ are around the 90% level. If that is the case then it makes sense that an A380 would replace the 77W service, since the bilateral doesn't specify the number of seats but rather flights.

So because they come close to filling a plane that holds a total of 358 (which is still 41 short of economy alone on the A380) so 90% of that 358 is 322 pax they get. So put on a plane that holds 489 and remain with that 322 pax... thats 167 open seats... doesn't make sense.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Dabth747
Posted 2009-03-01 07:43:29 and read 9281 times.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 48):

Agree thats not the solution, the solution is daily to offer more flexibility rather than 3 x week for premium pax, who wants to no show on a Friday but then does he really want to wait till Monday for the next available flight?

Quoting ETStar (Reply 19):
Quoting Dabth747 (Reply 3):
I think the solution would be a codeshare with AC, for daily flights for EK to YYZ? Would that not work??

Why bind EK to an agreement it may not want to work in?

Who said anything about binding EK, read what I wrote, if EK is so desperate they could approach AC for a codeshare and see what the outcome is....so if EK is approcahing why and who is focing them.....

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
Having personally participated in several rounds of talks, I've heard with my own ears the Canadian representatives state they were unwilling to grant requested rights, as there was no reciprocal interest by Canadaian carriers in such service. They even have suggest people go make a deal with Air Canada directly for some form of code-share instead -- clearly bargaining with ACs pocket book in mind.

Very interesting!

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Cslusarc
Posted 2009-03-01 09:29:10 and read 8708 times.

I don't post much here lately. I am totally anti-EK when it comes to flying to Canada. I feel that EK is highly subsidized by its local government because it doesn't have to operate under a similar taxation environment as most Western airlines, with high fuel taxes. This allows EK have significantly lower CASM than AC when it flies pax from Canada to points beyond DXB. This is one reason why AC cancelled its direct routing to India.

If EK can prove that Canada - DXB O & D traffic is more than 50% of its RPMs, then I would consider allowing EK (and EY) to add additional frequencies one weekly frequency at a time.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-01 10:15:13 and read 8474 times.



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 33):
Define South Asians? Are you referring to Indians or Pakistani? I could be. However, when we exchange our US money with Canadian currency at an Abbotsford Toronto Dominion bank, we are definitely the minority whilst standing in line.

South Asians = Pakistanis and Indians. It is difficult to confuse this community with the Arab race.

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 35):
However, I am not so complimented when a European thinks I am an American and am very quick to point out I am Canadian.

Relax about it. As much as Canadians wish to publicly deny it, we think in very much the same way as do Americans. There are far lefties and far righties and all views in between in both countries.

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 37):

Get real AC...open your eyes! Stop blocking, stop complaining and if you're gonna charge high fares then make it worthwhile paying for! I Hope Ac gets real competition...i love AC, but they've gotten away with alot for far too long.

For most routes - domestic and international, AC faces worthy competition and offers identical or very competitive fares. Whether you feel those fares are worthwhile is your subjective opinion.

Quoting CayMan (Reply 44):
YYC seems like a long shot at this time.

I agree completely. I think the current bust will be deeper and more prolonged than is stated. Claims of better economic diversification in Alberta don't match the reality, in which oil is King and tides rise and fall as the oil & gas fortunes move. I can't see EK arriving anytime soon, nor will I be surprised to see a withdrawal or reduction in service from major European carriers into YYC within a couple years.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 45):
Air Canada would be unable to compete with Emirates favorable geographic position.

I don't think AC (or any Canadian carrier) should have much to worry about when it comes to Dubai's geographical position. There are very few routes from Canada that are better or more easily accessed through DXB than through existing cities that are served by AC or other Asian or European airlines flying daily into this country.
The DXB hub makes perfect sense as a crossroads for Europe to Australia or Africa to South/SE Asia traffic, but poses little advantage to most North American travelers.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Skysurfer
Posted 2009-03-01 12:11:49 and read 8319 times.



Quoting AirNz (Reply 47):
Then, if I may ask, why fly them "many times"?

Easy, lack of choice! Don't get me wrong....as i've clearly stated above i like the airline but their airfares are high, as are Westjets now. It's nice to hear that competition wants to come to Canada, because that competition IF allowed always makes a company review itself to see if it's offering a great product or not, or how to refine that product to counter the competition.

Quoting AirNz (Reply 47):
Sorry, but as you've complained of service/fares on air, train and bus services I'm at a loss as to what you actually want. Please correct me with a possible explanation if I'm wrong but this is coming across as you wanting/expecting transportation only on your terms.

Have you ever been to Canada and experienced travel around here? Whilst i respect your comments, i'm talking about AC and Emirates. I merely mentioned the bus and rail services as an example and as a response to a question asked by another poster. I never said anything about having transportation services tailored to my specific needs. I said Rail travel was expensive and bus travel doesn't actually guarantee you a seat. Unfortunately Kingston is halfway between Toronto and Ottawa so we'll never have any real service by air......yes i realize AC are the only ones on the route so they can charge pretty much whatever for people wanting the convenience of flying, but in my original post i was stating the cost of the flight matching international fares almost. I'm happy for EK to come to Canada IF it's on equal terms (ie they get a route and AC gets a route), and my original intention was to show people the costs of travel in the area of Canada i live in and what you get for it, that's all.

Next round? lol

Cheers

Stu

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-03-01 12:41:33 and read 8277 times.

Quoting Dabth747 (Reply 49):
who wants to no show on a Friday but then does he really want to wait till Monday for the next available flight?

EK can easily reroute that passenger via JFK where they have twice-daily service.

[Edited 2009-03-01 12:43:47]

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2009-03-01 21:26:41 and read 7935 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 51):
I don't think AC (or any Canadian carrier) should have much to worry about when it comes to Dubai's geographical position. There are very few routes from Canada that are better or more easily accessed through DXB than through existing cities that are served by AC or other Asian or European airlines flying daily into this country.
The DXB hub makes perfect sense as a crossroads for Europe to Australia or Africa to South/SE Asia traffic, but poses little advantage to most North American travelers.

I see your reasoning.

But does that mean that EK expects to create demand from Canada that does not currently exist simply by virtue of adding more frequency?

And what (can we imagine) is the Canadian government's rejection of additional EK frequency about if it is not that it would take passengers out of AC A/C? Perhaps their concern is about point to point travel between Canada and Dubai. If Air Canada does not want to do a non-stop, but wishes to continue to transfer passengers to, say, Star Alliance member LH in Frankfurt, then Air Canada (and Star Alliance) is somewhat protected if EK non-stop frequency is restricted?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-01 21:43:07 and read 7918 times.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 54):
But does that mean that EK expects to create demand from Canada that does not currently exist simply by virtue of adding more frequency?

Well, out of eastern Canada, surely EK would be at an advantage as the DXB hub would work well for connections from YYZ - Southern Middle East/South Asia (comparing say YYZ-KHI or YYZ-BOM/DEL via FRA or LHR for example). So I can see why EK would want to increase flights into YYZ. AC would lose out with its ability to feed traffic through its star alliance hubs - mainly FRA.

For Southeast Asia, still shorter to go via HKG for example.

I am not familiar with the O+D on say YYZ-DXB only, but I cannot imagine it would be strong enough that that would be EK's focus. I think they would be after the South Asian market.

It is funny to see EK throwing in numbers like frequencies to the UK, Australia, other European markets, when these flights clearly benefit from the much stronger flows of traffic between Europe and Asia/Australia (like someone mentioned previously). They argue that "we fly x number of flights to the UK but only x number of flights to Canada." Duh! That is a poor comparison to use. But they are obviously hoping the average Canadian will see this as a bad thing and march on parliament to demand more flights to DXB. "If London has so many flights, so should we!" - yeah right!

Also, as I said before, looking at DXB as a transfer point from Western Canada, is really limited. Faster to go via Asia to South Asia and certainly to Southeast Asia. I reckon EK is trying to rile up the people of Vancouver and Calgary to get Canada to open up so it can really get those extra Toronto flights it so desperately wants. Despite what EK has said, I would seriously doubt that YVR or YYC are really their primary targets.

Nice try EK, but I certainly don't buy your arguments.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Olympus69
Posted 2009-03-01 22:09:33 and read 7894 times.

Lets face it. Nothing's really going to change while we're sitting next to a country with ten times our population and more than ten times the economic power. What we need is for Canadians to get busy in the bedrooms of the nation and bring our population up to 100 million or so.

I'd be happy to help, but I'm going to be 82 next month and doubt if I could make much of a contribution.  Wink

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-01 22:25:00 and read 7868 times.



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 55):
Nice try EK, but I certainly don't buy your arguments.

Neither, it seems, do the federal bureaucrats tasked with making the decisions that permit foreign carriers to serve Canada.

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 56):
Nothing's really going to change while we're sitting next to a country with ten times our population and more than ten times the economic power.

Despite our diminutive clout, Canada does thrive by taking advantage of certain markets at the expense of the US carriers. AC's success in carrying a disproportionate amount of air traffic between Asia and South America comes to mind.

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 56):
I'd be happy to help, but I'm going to be 82 next month and doubt if I could make much of a contribution.

That's the spirit! Stranger things have happened - get out there and give it your all!

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2009-03-01 22:25:16 and read 7882 times.

There are many issues that play into the easing of bilateral restrictions. Not all of them are economic. Many are political.....I, for one, think that EK should be denied incremental access to Canada until the UAE improves its atrocious human rights records: they dont allow ANY immigration leading to citizenship, they don't allow any Israeli/Jewish entry and their treatment of minorities (women, gays, migrant workers) is barbaric.

Canada has few options to display our displeasure with the terrible human rights records of Dubai, but the refusal to grant additional landing rights for EK is one of them.

While I generally take a pro-market perspective, the human rights record of Dubai sickens me, and until it improves, EK is unworthy of additional slots into Canada.

Political issues are often foremost in bilateral agreements. Human rights are a political issue.

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 27):
The other side of the coin is the Canadian government requires some things from Air Canada no other carrier (WestJet or American carrier) has to comply with that still hang on from the days it was a Crown Corporation. No other carrier has to have completely bilingual service on all flights.

Oh please. AC benefits greatly from the international route authority it was handed when it was a crown corporation to LHR,CDG,FRA. I'm sure the profits from these routes more than cover the cost of bilingualism. AC also has a virtual lock on LGA slots which is a profitable market -- slots and authority it was handed as the "favoured" Cdn airline.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-01 22:45:06 and read 7844 times.



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 58):
Oh please. AC benefits greatly from the international route authority it was handed when it was a crown corporation to LHR,CDG,FRA.

Crown Corp arguments are so ancient as to be irrelevant in today's Canadian air carrier discussions.
For every route AC was handed when a Crown Corporation, it's chief (privately-owned CP) competitor was awarded one of their own (Sydney, Auckland, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Rome, Amsterdam, Lima, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Mexico City, Nadi, Lisbon, Madrid etc). Many of these routes (particularly in Asia) became very lucrative. The implication that WestJet doesn't benefit from the best of these routes is a non-starter. It wasn't a player at the time, and it's free today to start some of the routes you mention.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2009-03-01 23:09:08 and read 7820 times.

The only problem I have with the UAE getting more flights to Canada is if

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 58):
their treatment of minorities (women, gays, migrant workers) is barbaric.

Women don't seem to be treated barbarically in Dubai or Abu Dhabi, as far as I've seen...and I've spent 5 years in the area. In fact, women have access to education, are in very public jobs and have lots of freedom in dress and deportment. In some respects, they are given preference.

Whether or not a woman's hair or face is covered seems to be a personal decision. Go to a mall in the evening. You'll see women wearing every kind of garb which is accepted in public in any western city...including shorts and skirts.

For instance, being a Muslim country, there is a separate line for women for many services. While this may seem like discrimination, in practice it usually means much faster service since the lines are significantly smaller.

Internet, on the other hand, is censored on a mostly sex basis. Anything that even remotely seems pornographic, is probably censored. Prostitution, on the other hand, is rampant.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in the UAE but no more than in any western country...it just manifests itself in different ways. Extraordinary Rendition by the USA seems to me barbaric but people still do business with and flock to the States.

The plight of migrant workers is much publicized and is improving and UAE takes a view similar to the US military about gays; don't ask, don't tell...and don't flout.

Dubai has never been my cup of tea but Abu Dhabi is one of the nicest, friendliest, safest cities I've ever visited.

Back on subject; every country protects its own air carriers, in one respect or another. I like competition...I'm all for it...as long as someone doesn't come in losing money just to drive out everyone else. Without being able to see EK's books, nobody can know for sure.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Directorguy
Posted 2009-03-01 23:19:10 and read 7804 times.



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 58):
There are many issues that play into the easing of bilateral restrictions. Not all of them are economic. Many are political.....I, for one, think that EK should be denied incremental access to Canada until the UAE improves its atrocious human rights records: they dont allow ANY immigration leading to citizenship, they don't allow any Israeli/Jewish entry and their treatment of minorities (women, gays, migrant workers) is barbaric.

Canada has few options to display our displeasure with the terrible human rights records of Dubai, but the refusal to grant additional landing rights for EK is one of them.

While I generally take a pro-market perspective, the human rights record of Dubai sickens me, and until it improves, EK is unworthy of additional slots into Canada.

Political issues are often foremost in bilateral agreements. Human rights are a political issue.

I disagreet that bilaterals should be prevented on basis of human rights. The UAE is not the only country that has a bad record in terms of human rights, which are not 'terrible' by the way. You're over exaggerating.
Who is Canada to be a moral policeman and deny EK rights to Canada?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2009-03-01 23:34:10 and read 7794 times.



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 61):
The UAE is not the only country that has a bad record in terms of human rights

Correct, but this thread is about the UAE and EK. So we will talk about the UAE and EK here.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 61):
which are not 'terrible' by the way.

Denying Indians citizenship when they have been in Dubai for generations is not terrible? Refusing Jews entry on the basis of their religion is not terrible? Mistreatment of gays is not terrible?

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 61):
Who is Canada to be a moral policeman and deny EK rights to Canada?

You want EK to fly to Canada.....then we have the right to comment upon and criticize your terrible human rights record, and question your fitness to even fly to Canada. IMO.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2009-03-02 00:33:16 and read 7749 times.



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 62):

The Canadian government already allows UAE airlines to fly into Canada so, obviously, the human rights issue is a moot point. I don't recall seeing where these airlines are being refused further privileges because of the human rights record of their home country.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Directorguy
Posted 2009-03-02 01:48:33 and read 7710 times.



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 62):
Denying Indians citizenship when they have been in Dubai for generations is not terrible? Refusing Jews entry on the basis of their religion is not terrible? Mistreatment of gays is not terrible?

It's an open debate. But of course the matter lies with the UAE government, who grant citizenship as they see fit. They didn't lure Indians to Dubai with the promise of citizenship then deny it to them at the 11th hour. If the UAE granted citizenship to non-indigenous residents, then the makeup of the country will change, and not in favour of the Emiratis. I agree, UAE citizenship laws should be made lenient for some, but for me it's not a make or break deal.
Refusing Jews on the basis of religion is terrible, but that doesn't happen in the UAE. American or British Jews are allowed to enter. They do however refuse Israelis, and they have every right to. However, Israelis are now able to transit through DXB and AUH.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 62):
You want EK to fly to Canada.....then we have the right to comment upon and criticize your terrible human rights record, and question your fitness to even fly to Canada. IMO.

You have a right to comment and criticize, but for the record, there are plenty of countries that Canada trades with (and permits its airlines to fly to Canada) that have worse records of human rights. Why is the UAE the only country under scrutiny here?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SQ_EK_freak
Posted 2009-03-02 09:01:19 and read 7461 times.



Quoting Dabth747 (Reply 3):
however they do codeshare a lot, for example with SA, TG to name two from Star Alliance

And United I think? I know passengers on EK can earn miles on UA.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Yes, but AC has shown very little interest in the Middle East and/or India.

The issue with AC in the Middle East is that they don't offer the onward connections that EK would offer - a terminator service to Dubai most likely is not sustainable. Crew security issues at certain ports for AC has also been an issue, one that EK does not have (cities like BEY EK crew do turnarounds, while obviously not possible for AC).

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 23):
which already have seamless connections to Dubai & Abu Dhabi a

Seamless connections are different from non-stop flights though, and EK is aiming for transit pax beyond DXB.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 23):
To many of EK's onward connecting cities, going through DXB is a big detour for Canadians.

South Asia is good for connections, and Africa (less so, but cities in East Africa such as NBO or ADD are well positioned though) from East Coast Canada can be served well through DXB. West coast obviously less so for South Asia, still okay for Africa, but if pax are willing to spend more time in transit as a trade off for a cheaper ticket, whose to stop them?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 62):
Refusing Jews entry on the basis of their religion is not terrible?

This actually also works both ways (as mentioned, Jewish people are allowed, Israelis aren't due to reciprocal political reasons) and is also practiced in many countries apart from the UAE, so that's a complex subject that doesn't directly pertain to this thread.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Dabth747
Posted 2009-03-02 09:09:18 and read 7430 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 53):

easier said then done when perhaps 3/4 of the flight does not have a US visa....

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-03-02 16:28:06 and read 7250 times.

My friend who lives in Abu Dhabi said to me yesterday - after the denial of the Visa for the Israeli tennis player that made headlines around the world - forget seeing EK daily in Toronto. He by no means has an inside track on anything but was just commenting on the bad timing of the headlines.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-03-02 16:34:21 and read 7233 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 59):
For every route AC was handed when a Crown Corporation, it's chief (privately-owned CP) competitor was awarded one of their own (Sydney, Auckland, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Rome, Amsterdam, Lima, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Mexico City, Nadi, Lisbon, Madrid etc). Many of these routes (particularly in Asia) became very lucrative.

You are overlooking that many of the CP routes you mention were only awarded to CP after AC (then TCA) said they had no interest in operating them. And most of them only became profitable (a few were probably never profitable, including LIS/MAD/ATH/FCO) after many years of unprofitable operations by CP. A few of them (Mexico City for one) was originally operated by TCA but they dropped it after a year or two due to unprofitability and it was then given to CP.

And CP certainly wasn't treated fairly when Canada-USA routes were awarded. When the Canadian and U.S governments agreed to many new transborder routes in 1974, all except two were awarded to AC. CP got one (YVR-LAX) and I believe regional carrier Nordair was given YYZ-PIT.

AMS certainly wasn't a fair tradeoff for rights to LHR. CP was awarded rights from Western Canada to LHR in the mid-1950s but the government changed in an election shortly before service was to begin and the new party in power took CP's LHR rights away, resulting in CP starting service to AMS rather than LHR in 1955.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-02 17:10:16 and read 7196 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 68):

All understood. I guess the conclusion is that all major Canadian airlines currently suffer or have suffered interference by the politicians du jour whether a privately-held entity or an ex-Crown Corporation.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Bochora
Posted 2009-03-05 11:13:46 and read 6898 times.

I see on their site they have a whole new section for Canada-UAE flights:

http://www.emirates.com/uk/english/a.../public_affairs/canada/canada.aspx

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-05 12:45:52 and read 6812 times.



Quoting Bochora (Reply 70):
I see on their site they have a whole new section for Canada-UAE flights:

http://www.emirates.com/uk/english/a....aspx

Wow, what a bunch of boloney!

"At the very least we seek to offer our business and leisure travellers a daily service to Toronto in the very near future."

"The Canada-Dubai story is an impressive one. Trade, tourism and investment are all growing at record levels thanks to the Gulf boom and the successful leveraging of Canada's expertise in this region."

"Direct air services are a vital component of any such economic achievement."

"Emirates believes that its operations to Toronto will not be at the expense of Air Canada."

I don't think I have seen ever seen an airline get "political" on its own website.

This is all pretty much the same hogwash that was posted in the letters to the Canadian newspapers. They even give an address to the Canadian government for people to write or fax their opinions on this.

I feel almost obligated to write in b/c I am sure Emirates has the best intentions in regards to Canada - yeah right!

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Singapore_Air
Posted 2009-03-05 13:05:17 and read 6777 times.



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 71):
Wow, what a bunch of boloney!

Intersting. Could you elaborate on how each of those sentences you have quoted equal to "boloney"?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-03-05 13:24:12 and read 6735 times.



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 71):
Trade, tourism and investment are all growing at record levels thanks to the Gulf boom

Does anyone have any data on Canadian tourist arrivals in DXB or the Gulf in general? I believe the numbers must be very small, apart from a few people who may spend a night or so there when connecting to destinations beyond DXB. And how much tourism is there in the other direction? That also must be very small.

And the "Gulf boom" may soon turn into a "Gulf bust" based on recent stories re the effects of the global economic crisis on the Gulf region.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Jamincan
Posted 2009-03-05 14:41:22 and read 6675 times.

As I suspected, it's all about more rights to Toronto. Only after receiving those right *may* they consider expanding to the rest of Canada. I think they're just baiting the folks in YYC and YVR to do the lobbying for them, and once they get the rights, YVR and YYC will be forgotten on the curb.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-05 15:01:28 and read 6642 times.



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 72):
Intersting. Could you elaborate on how each of those sentences you have quoted equal to "boloney"?

Point 1:

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 74):
As I suspected, it's all about more rights to Toronto. Only after receiving those right *may* they consider expanding to the rest of Canada. I think they're just baiting the folks in YYC and YVR to do the lobbying for them, and once they get the rights, YVR and YYC will be forgotten on the curb.

Exactly.

Point 2:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 73):
Does anyone have any data on Canadian tourist arrivals in DXB or the Gulf in general? I believe the numbers must be very small, apart from a few people who may spend a night or so there when connecting to destinations beyond DXB. And how much tourism is there in the other direction? That also must be very small.

And the "Gulf boom" may soon turn into a "Gulf bust" based on recent stories re the effects of the global economic crisis on the Gulf region.

Exactly.

Point 3:

Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 71):
"Direct air services are a vital component of any such economic achievement."

Duh! But to use this as bait for ONE link out of YYZ is crap. I would hardly say YYZ lacks in direct air services.

Part 4:

Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 71):
"Emirates believes that its operations to Toronto will not be at the expense of Air Canada."

Really now? What a load of crap. Of course they will say that though.

Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 55):
Well, out of eastern Canada, surely EK would be at an advantage as the DXB hub would work well for connections from YYZ - Southern Middle East/South Asia (comparing say YYZ-KHI or YYZ-BOM/DEL via FRA or LHR for example). So I can see why EK would want to increase flights into YYZ. AC would lose out with its ability to feed traffic through its star alliance hubs - mainly FRA.

I am all for expansion, but an airline to use fluffy press releases based on "opinions" and open letters as they have done to get a public to hound their MPs for flights is just smoke. I just hope the average Canadian doesn't believe everything he or she reads.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-09 19:51:52 and read 6385 times.

Here they go again!

http://www.canada.com/Emirates+Airli...anadian+service/1370160/story.html

My favourite quote from this article is:

"It desperately wants to include Vancouver, and is positioning itself as the new poster child for widening access to Canadian skies."

Parker goes on again to compare how Australia has 63 flights per week and Canada only 6 - he calls the situation "absurd." However, he does concede that "this fight could take at least a couple of years."

And on we go.......

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-09 20:29:03 and read 6327 times.

I like how they drag some pro-business viewpoint into the story, even if it belongs to a guy with one of the more obscure enterprises out there. Live pet cargo? How much Middle Eastern business does he do that a Dubai flight would help him out?

As has been discussed, Vancouver is already one stop from pretty much anywhere.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2009-03-10 07:53:34 and read 5945 times.



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 74):
As I suspected, it's all about more rights to Toronto. Only after receiving those right *may* they consider expanding to the rest of Canada. I think they're just baiting the folks in YYC and YVR to do the lobbying for them, and once they get the rights, YVR and YYC will be forgotten on the curb.

While I agree this is mostly about YYZ, I do expect YVR to see EK service if rights were to be expanded.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 77):
As has been discussed, Vancouver is already one stop from pretty much anywhere.

I still see a market there.

How about a compromise.

Let EK have rights *after* YYC gains the daily frequency.  spin 
I have to say, what is happening to Dubai is very interesting.
Its a massive 'Florida like' real estate boom/bust. e.g., Florida in 1926-1930's, 1974-1978, and... Now!

I'm a fan of the 'super-hub' concept. But I've started to question if DXB has enough O&D traffic to compete through this downturn. Only time will tell.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Sebring
Posted 2009-03-10 09:11:12 and read 5847 times.



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 25):

If there's enough traffic for EK and EY, there should be enough traffic for AC, as well. Then they can also try and steal some Asian traffic.

There is enough traffic for EK and EY only because most of the flight is sold to other destinations like India and Pakistan. My wife is flying to India shortly on EY. There is no significant for any of the emirates in Canada. Maybe a few dozen people a day.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2009-03-10 09:22:11 and read 5821 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Yes, but AC has shown very little interest in the Middle East and/or India

AI and 9W both operate almost daily services between India and YYZ (AI shortly increasing # of flights).....AC has repeatedly started and discontinued services to India over the years...

If EK were to provide more flights out of YYZ, the India bound passengers would be one of the biggest beneficiaries, as EK have a loooooooooot of flights connecting from DXB to various Indian cities.....currently, the fares to anywhere in India are outrageously high and very limited choice.....maybe the Canadian govt wants to keep it that way for some reason.....

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Sebring
Posted 2009-03-10 09:22:39 and read 5825 times.



Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 37):

Get real AC...open your eyes! Stop blocking, stop complaining and if you're gonna charge high fares then make it worthwhile paying for! I Hope Ac gets real competition...i love AC, but they've gotten away with alot for far too long.

This is a huge crock of crap. And no Brit should lecture the world about competition the way the British government has manipulated Heathrow access to protect BA.

The Canadian government has signed many liberal agreements, the most notable the new Canada-EU open skies agreement. If protecting AC were its main goal, this latter agreement, which allows EU carriers to fly to anywhere in Canada to anywhere in the EU, would not have been remotely possible. The key in Canadian government policy is reciprocity, and it doesn't mean the Canadian carriers have to be interested in a route to make it possible. That's stated in the Canadian government policy on bilateral liberalization called Blue Skies which you can find on the Transport Canada website.

But Blue Skies does stipulate that the premise of competition is that it must be fair, and in policy terms that means benefits must be provided and routes must be sustainable on O&D traffic, not on state-subsidized carriers poaching sixth freedom traffic. So there are very specific carriers like SQ and EK that run afoul of Canada's stated policy.

The vast majority of airlines in the world, from BA to LH to AF to JL to CX to AI are now happy with their very liberal Canada access and pricing rules

You have to ask, if the large majority of the world's airlines are happy with their Canada access and pricing rights, what is it about EK that makes it a pariah to Canada. Could it be that they only want liberality but don't offer it in return.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Directorguy
Posted 2009-03-10 11:12:06 and read 5695 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 78):
I'm a fan of the 'super-hub' concept. But I've started to question if DXB has enough O&D traffic to compete through this downturn. Only time will tell.

Believe it or not, but I think the fact that DXB is more of a transit hub than an O&D city (although O&D is sizeable in real numbers) makes it able to weather any economic downturn. Airlines that rely mostly on O&D are hurt the most as citypairs see decreased passenger numbers. Hence, DXB will be able to ride through the downturn with flying colours.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 81):
You have to ask, if the large majority of the world's airlines are happy with their Canada access and pricing rights, what is it about EK that makes it a pariah to Canada. Could it be that they only want liberality but don't offer it in return

You forget that DXB is probably the last airport in the world to be protected by the UAE government. Open Skies has been the rule of the day for decades now, and I can't think of a single occassion where EK has complained of being upstaged in capacity by the reciprocating airline.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 81):
But Blue Skies does stipulate that the premise of competition is that it must be fair, and in policy terms that means benefits must be provided and routes must be sustainable on O&D traffic, not on state-subsidized carriers poaching sixth freedom traffic. So there are very specific carriers like SQ and EK that run afoul of Canada's stated policy.

Of course, if AC and EK began YYZ-DXB, then EK would be the winner. AC would be forced to rely on O&D since it doesn't offer much of a beyond network from its Pearson hub, whereas pax on the EK flight would be able to connect to the Subcontinent and even the Far East (if they play it right).
EK isn't 'state-subsidized', and even if it is, so what? It isn't EK/EY's fault that there is little O&D between Canada and the UAE.
The Canadian government seems to expect that the airline on the other side of a bilateral must be the same as AC. They must offer the same in terms of capacity, have similar O&D etc. They don't seem to realize that any given side is bound to have competitive advantages over the other.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-03-10 11:21:36 and read 5686 times.



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 82):
The Canadian government seems to expect that the airline on the other side of a bilateral must be the same as AC. They must offer the same in terms of capacity, have similar O&D etc. They don't seem to realize that any given side is bound to have competitive advantages over the other.

That is not correct. Just look at KL which has always relied very heavily on 6th freedom traffic connecting at AMS. O&D traffic between Canada and AMS is a small percentage of KL's total passengers to/from Canada, although I'm sure it's significantly more than Canada-UAE O&D traffic.

The Canadian government has always been very liberal with KL's traffic rights to Canada, although Canadian carriers have never been able to profitably serve AMS due to KL's dominance of beyond traffic and the low volume of high-yield business traffic. At one time KL had online service to 6 cities in Canada. Now 3, but 4 starting this spring when they reinstate service to YYC after an absence of a decade or more. The Netherlands is of course now covered by the recently-agreed Canada-EU Open Skies agreement.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2009-03-10 12:21:26 and read 5616 times.

EK to YYZ would offer great connections as several have already noted. KE now has great access to Canada, but a tiny network to India. So the level of competition is less than ideal from YVR.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 82):
Believe it or not, but I think the fact that DXB is more of a transit hub than an O&D city (although O&D is sizeable in real numbers) makes it able to weather any economic downturn.

If they can keep their CASM very low, yes, that is possible. However, traditionally strong hubs weather a downturn by turning to (some my say gouging) their O&D passengers. O&D should be higher profit than transit traffic. Oh, transit should be profitable, but premium traffic pays a higher RASM for the more rapid flights.

This depends on EK garnering access to destinations where their single hub/multi-banked/low-CASM model can grow. Since they just gained more access to India and Australia, they have two legs well covered. (With much of India's growth being up-gauging soon.) Canada and Germany remain the two other 'legs' that would be easy growth for EK. I really doubt we'll see Germany change their bilateral. The same is probably true of Canada. But if EK were to have 21 allowed weekly frequencies to Canada, I'm certain they could make a profit on the flights.

I'm very curious to see how EK/Dubai does over the next two years in this economy.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-03-10 13:25:20 and read 5565 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 84):
EK to YYZ would offer great connections as several have already noted. KE now has great access to Canada, but a tiny network to India. So the level of competition is less than ideal from YVR.

However, YVR still has 9 airlines with online service to India via both the Pacific and Atlantic (mileage not much different either way) -- BA KL LH JL KE CX CI CA MU. It's 10 until the end of April when SQ drops YVR.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Jambrain
Posted 2009-03-10 13:27:40 and read 5552 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 84):
Since they just gained more access to India and Australia

not forgetting Italy

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/539389-italy-emirates

Quote:

Emirates [EMAIR.UL], which has less than 10 Italian slots a week at present, has asked for slots to cover 21 weekly flights each to Rome and Milan and 14 for Venice. It also plans 28 weekly cargo flights.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-03-10 16:40:48 and read 5438 times.

This has always been my problem with EK's growth plans. They depend on most nations bowing down and saying: "sure, you can have unrestricted access to our markets and dominate all international traffic and run our local firms into the ground." AsEK gets bigger, they will hit more and more resistance such as Canada's. Dubai needs open skies far more than any country it would fly to...

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-10 19:21:50 and read 5336 times.



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 82):
AC would be forced to rely on O&D since it doesn't offer much of a beyond network from its Pearson hub,

Huh? AC is about as well connected from YYZ as one could get.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-03-10 19:59:55 and read 5282 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 88):
Quoting Directorguy (Reply 82):
AC would be forced to rely on O&D since it doesn't offer much of a beyond network from its Pearson hub,

Huh? AC is about as well connected from YYZ as one could get.

A quick check of current AC schedules shows nonstop service from YYZ to 28 cities in Canada, 50 in the USA, and 44 in 28 other countries/territories.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-03-10 21:24:28 and read 5227 times.

The point is, EK will connect pax from canada to various places that either AC already flies direct, or that AC connects with it's partners NH and LH.

But for the Dubai rights, AC would be basically flying O&D to Dubai. Yes, they can connect pax from a lot of other places in North America, but EK is going to fly there nonstop from some, and other carriers will fly there non-stop from some.

And as EK expands in north america, the connection demand for AC diminishes.

This is the problem EK poses. They will dominate the Dubai O&D, but also steal connecting traffic from Star Alliance. Why would AC welcome that?

It's the dilemma of Dubai as a transit point, because it's to a large degree unnecessary in this age of 250-350 seat 7500nm aircraft. The market can only grow so much on pent up demand, and otherwise has to be manufactured by diverting traffic that already exists on other carriers, usually by loading up capacity to established hubs of other carriers. Nothing wrong with that business strategy on a certain scale, but once you try to get too big, what is in it for the other nations of the world that don't see an increase in tourism beyond a certain level, only a diversion of traffic from one carrier to another? Why would LH want 7 dailies into Dubai as a trade off for EK getting 7 dailies into Germany? LH loses. Same for AC in Canada, AF in France, etc.

EK is going to find it harder and harder to expand and fill the 200+ L and VLA aircraft they have on order.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2009-03-10 21:43:38 and read 5207 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
However, YVR still has 9 airlines with online service to India via both the Pacific and Atlantic (mileage not much different either way) -- BA KL LH JL KE CX CI CA MU. It's 10 until the end of April when SQ drops YVR.

I would scratch a few off the list unless you wish to go to only BOM or DEL (or maybe MAA). For example, I am still waiting for a friend to set a wedding date in HYD. After downloading the 'airline route mapper' (you can google it), I see from your list YVR to HYD is served by:
BA, LH

What about AMD (several coworkers hail from there and would be the 2nd most likely place in India for me to fly)?
(no single airline connections, not exactly the best connections to YVR via the alliances either... )

Now I have no idea what the YYC/YVR likely connections are (in terms of O&D demand from YVR), but with EK, they have better connections than some alliances to India (e.g, vs. Skyteam).  Wink

This does beg the question from the route planners, at 6,349nm DXB-YVR, is the 77W going to have a decent payload after wind and other allowances? I realize DXB-SYD is flown with the 77W by EK and is 6,500nm. What I do not know is with the trans-polar routing

1. How much additional distance is added taking one of the few trans-polar routes?
2. Hit on fuel reserves going trans polar?

Quoting Jambrain (Reply 86):
not forgetting Italy

But that is still *seeking* more rights to Italy. I was so hoping you had a link to the rights status (granted or rejected, I'm just curious).  scratchchin 

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-10 22:09:57 and read 5174 times.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 91):
I would scratch a few off the list unless you wish to go to only BOM or DEL

The fact is, the vast, and I mean, vast majority of passengers from YVR-India would be going to Delhi. Even YVR-Mumbai traffic would be a trickle compared to Delhi.

Yes, it would be great to have easy connections to many other cities in India, but the fact is, there is minimal traffic to these other cities.

Hence, and as I have said before, the DXB hub is not as attractive for Western Canada.

[Edited 2009-03-10 22:16:13]

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: HAMAD
Posted 2009-03-10 23:12:11 and read 5134 times.

There are two points here:

1- YYZ has a large indian population, if you see most of the passengers checking in on emirates flight you will see this. they usually book Emirates simply to continue their trips to india via dubai. those passengers are your leisrue travellers who dont mind when they are flying if it was today or tomorrow as long as its within a date range

2- Business Travellers - here comes the inconvinience of a three times a week. lets say i am a business traveller and want to get to dubai asap, and its a day that EK does not operate, then i will have to go via europe on either AF, KL or LH, or BA and thus the inconvinience of long connection time and getting there later, or even the next morning.

after all, as a response to some comments that AC might want to fly to Dubai, here is the deal: AC is a star alliance member, you can simply take an AC flight to IAD and connect to the non stop to DXB.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-03-10 23:13:32 and read 5134 times.



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 92):
Hence, and as I have said before, the DXB hub is not as attractive for Western Canada.

Not to mention that you can connect in India to other cities for the few who want to. Why Canada needs EK for this, only EK can explain completely.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Huaiwei
Posted 2009-03-11 10:46:05 and read 4937 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 94):
Why Canada needs EK for this

Canada in theory doesn't need any foreign airline to connect that country with the world, since there is good old AC to do the job alone. So perhaps that is what the general travelling public in Canada really want, if we are to take the strawpoll in this thread seriously!

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-11 12:20:31 and read 4882 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 91):
I would scratch a few off the list unless you wish to go to only BOM or DEL (or maybe MAA). For example, I am still waiting for a friend to set a wedding date in HYD. After downloading the 'airline route mapper' (you can google it), I see from your list YVR to HYD is served by:
BA, LH

It's not that all 10 airlines need to serve all Indian airports. The point is that from Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto or Montreal, we can fly to most large airports in (insert name of country here) either nonstop or with only one connection. From YVR, daily service to HYD on BA or LH would meet most traveler's needs.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 91):
What about AMD (several coworkers hail from there and would be the 2nd most likely place in India for me to fly)?
(no single airline connections, not exactly the best connections to YVR via the alliances either... )

Again, there is one-stop service from YVR via LHR (for a couple more weeks), FRA or EWR. We could introduce all sorts of quasi-important variables, such as adhering to particular alliances, to make the travel options as artificially limited as possible, but in reality if you have a need to get there on any particular day, you can.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-11 13:50:16 and read 4789 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 94):
Not to mention that you can connect in India to other cities for the few who want to. Why Canada needs EK for this, only EK can explain completely.

Yes, EK can explain this completely, with their fluffy news stories, bogus comparisons and overly optimistic economic figures. Like I said before, I just hope the average Canadian reads all their "facts" with a grain of salt. If it is written, it MUST be true!

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: DavidYYC
Posted 2009-03-11 15:08:52 and read 4739 times.



Quoting CayMan (Reply 44):
YYC seems like a long shot at this time. $1bn deficit, much worse than expected economic number in Alberta coupled with severe downturn in Dubai...the lustre has clearly come off Calgary. $40 oil can sustain some normal economic growth but this pipe dream of Calgary as the new financial centre and economic Utopia of western N America has come crashing back to earth in last 2-3 quarters.

Nobody knows the meaning of boom to bust like Alberta does. No reason this should be a flat out bust but I think some Albertans better get their heads around idea the normalcy is returning for now. Will oil creep towards $100 again? No doubt, and YYC will continue to grow on a more reasonable par with national and global economic growth but as a betting man I would happily put money on wager EK will not be in YYC inside of next decade. beyond that, who can really tell....

^ Said with quite a bit of glee!? Amazing how people across Canada get some kind of vicarious pleasure over Alberta not posting huge surpluses. Funny how the fact that Ontario will post a $10 bn deficit in their budget later this month that never gets mentioned, or the fact that Alberta's contribution to the Federal coffers is huge. Sorry to disappoint, but I dont think the downturn be all that bad in Alberta.

Anyhow, not to derail the thread; In my opinion the only thing preventing EK from expanding to YYC is the Canadian Government. EK, would be a big welcome here, and would do well with a link to YVR, no question in my mind. They obviously have done their marketing research and must think it is somehow viable. I would welcome it, as it would provide good competition to the other carriers that provide service overseas from YYC ( LH BA KL)

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-03-11 15:49:32 and read 4696 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 91):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
However, YVR still has 9 airlines with online service to India via both the Pacific and Atlantic (mileage not much different either way) -- BA KL LH JL KE CX CI CA MU. It's 10 until the end of April when SQ drops YVR.

I would scratch a few off the list unless you wish to go to only BOM or DEL (or maybe MAA). For example, I am still waiting for a friend to set a wedding date in HYD. After downloading the 'airline route mapper' (you can google it), I see from your list YVR to HYD is served by:
BA, LH

But there are dozens of daily connecting flights from BOM and DEL to HYD, if you don't want to use BA or LH.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-11 17:24:24 and read 4650 times.



Quoting DavidYYC (Reply 98):
EK, would be a big welcome here, and would do well with a link to YVR, no question in my mind. They obviously have done their marketing research and must think it is somehow viable.

I honestly believe EK is feeding false hopes to Western Canada to push Western Canadians for a more liberal air agreement that will give EK what it really wants... increased service to YYZ.

"Marketing research" or not, don't expect to see EK gracing the skies of YYC anytime soon.

EK is throwing all sorts of words their way (Western Canada) to strengthen their case.

Still my favourite from that last news article has to be

"It desperately wants to include Vancouver, and is positioning itself as the new poster child for widening access to Canadian skies."

Yes, I can just hear the tears flowing as EK so desperately wants to include YVR.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SunriseValley
Posted 2009-03-11 18:18:47 and read 4675 times.



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 91):
What I do not know is with the trans-polar routing

I would imagine the routing would be very similar to DXB-LAX...whatever that is ! If there is a route that goes close to the pole the headings would be close to due north with similar characteristics to the JFK/YYZ-HKG route.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Directorguy
Posted 2009-03-12 03:07:41 and read 4530 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 88):
Huh? AC is about as well connected from YYZ as one could get.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 89):
A quick check of current AC schedules shows nonstop service from YYZ to 28 cities in Canada, 50 in the USA, and 44 in 28 other countries/territories.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 90):
But for the Dubai rights, AC would be basically flying O&D to Dubai. Yes, they can connect pax from a lot of other places in North America, but EK is going to fly there nonstop from some, and other carriers will fly there non-stop from some.

The 3rd quote sums up my comment the most. Why would passengers from DXB connect from YYZ to NYC, IAD, LAX, SFO when they can fly to these cities nonstop, or connect via Europe (and breaking down the journey properly, roughly 7 hours in each segment).
The only connections that AC would be able to provide only, would be to secondary points in Canada.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Huaiwei
Posted 2009-03-12 09:18:11 and read 4386 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 96):
It's not that all 10 airlines need to serve all Indian airports. The point is that from Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto or Montreal, we can fly to most large airports in (insert name of country here) either nonstop or with only one connection. From YVR, daily service to HYD on BA or LH would meet most traveler's needs.

I see. No Canadian passenger ought to enjoy the convenience of non-stop flights too. So not only should no foreign airline fly into Canada since AC can meet everyone's needs, AC should only be allowed to fly into LHR, NYC, LAX, NRT and SYD, since all passengers can very easily connect to any other destination in the planet from these global or regional hubs!

All these "there is no need for XXX airline to fly XXX route because an alternative is available" arguments are becoming quite a mockery. Would anyone not agree that there is basically an alternative for practically all air routes around the world, except in cases where an airport is served by just one airline to just one destination?

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-12 14:38:52 and read 4271 times.



Quoting DavidYYC (Reply 98):
^ Said with quite a bit of glee!? Amazing how people across Canada get some kind of vicarious pleasure over Alberta not posting huge surpluses.

Try living in a place that becomes untenable during each cycle of Albertan prosperity. Nobody across Canada relishes Albertan misery, but it sure is nice to be able to take a breath and settle down at the moment.

Quoting DavidYYC (Reply 98):
EK, would be a big welcome here, and would do well with a link to YVR, no question in my mind.

Welcome perhaps, but not very viable in Calgary. Especially with a dreaded one-hour link to or from YVR. You may as well say goodbye to any premium customers from Vancouver in that case - why would they endure more stops than necessary? Domestic tag-on arrangements belong, quite rightly, on bottom-fare charter carriers only.

Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 103):
I see. No Canadian passenger ought to enjoy the convenience of non-stop flights too.

You've missed the point. We've established that EK won't be expanding service to take advantage of Canada-UAE O&D traffic, mainly because such a market is insignificant. EK wants all the connecting traffic to India in particular. Those are the flights that we can already obtain through hubs in North America or across either northern ocean. If there's a legitimate nonstop market for any city pair in Canada and a second country, then by all means, any airline is welcome to provide service.

Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 103):
All these "there is no need for XXX airline to fly XXX route because an alternative is available" arguments are becoming quite a mockery.

Says a member from Singapore, whose home airline has announced retreat after years of being denied the chance to undermine other carriers' (domestic and international) service to and from Canada.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-12 14:53:28 and read 4249 times.



Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 103):
I see. No Canadian passenger ought to enjoy the convenience of non-stop flights too. So not only should no foreign airline fly into Canada since AC can meet everyone's needs, AC should only be allowed to fly into LHR, NYC, LAX, NRT and SYD, since all passengers can very easily connect to any other destination in the planet from these global or regional hubs!

All these "there is no need for XXX airline to fly XXX route because an alternative is available" arguments are becoming quite a mockery. Would anyone not agree that there is basically an alternative for practically all air routes around the world, except in cases where an airport is served by just one airline to just one destination?

I hear what you are saying, but I think you have blown what people are trying to say well out of context. You have to look at each market and analyse if a non-stop route is warranted. For example, why would anyone fly YYZ-MAA or YVR-AMD non-stop when there would clearly not be a market for it. Don't forget, EK already has flights from YYZ-DXB. What EK is after is increased access to YYZ, not a new route. You cannot expect every potential point to be connected by non-stop flights. The question is, how well would DXB non-stop flights benefit? From Western Canada, as I have said before, non-stop flights to DXB would have limited benefit. The only viable route that would warrant non-stop flights to India, in my opinion, would be YVR-DEL. So what people are arguing is that to other cities in India, for example, there are numerous options via one-stop at various other hubs. I think you need to read what people are saying more carefully before jumping to some crazy conclusion like your's.

I for one believe that the following new routes/carriers could possibly work out of YVR (notice how EK to DXB is not one of them?):

YVR-CAN on CZ
YVR-DEL on AI
YVR-ICN on OZ

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-03-12 15:05:02 and read 4243 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 99):
But there are dozens of daily connecting flights from BOM and DEL to HYD, if you don't want to use BA or LH.

Somehow, EK is trying to convince everyone that connecting in DXB is really important and far more valuable than connecting in London, Tokyo, Frankfurt, Mumbai, Hong Kong, etc. even though there is more O&D demand to London, Tokyo, Frankfurt.

1-stop is 1-stop. Why it needs to be a stop in DXB, well, that's not clear.

But in reality, it's only really important to EK and Dubai, which have collectively based their future on people transiting DXB, and hopefully stopping for a while to spend money.

Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 103):
I see. No Canadian passenger ought to enjoy the convenience of non-stop flights too

Non-stop to where? Dubai? Sure, but the demand isn't there for 21 daily large or VLA flights a day from Canada to Dubai. Most of that demand would be onward connections, and all of those onward connections are already served, so it would not involve a growth of Canadian travel or commerce, simply a shift from one carrier to another.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-12 15:51:52 and read 4206 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 106):
Most of that demand would be onward connections, and all of those onward connections are already served, so it would not involve a growth of Canadian travel or commerce, simply a shift from one carrier to another.

Very nicely summed up. The second half of that sentence in particular is what the Canadian govt has to consider. They must keep in mind the nature of upsetting the business of other carriers/nations with whom they have signed air transport agreements.

Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 105):
YVR-ICN on OZ

That may be tough market to crack, considering an expansion of service by KE, but may help to fill the void left by SQ.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-12 16:01:05 and read 4198 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 107):
That may be tough market to crack, considering an expansion of service by KE, but may help to fill the void left by SQ.

It may very well be, you are right. But, OZ has publicly stated YVR is on their radar. I actually believe this more than the EK "stories!"

http://atwonline.com/magazine/article.html?articleID=2349

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Threepoint
Posted 2009-03-12 19:35:35 and read 4114 times.



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 108):
OZ has publicly stated YVR is on their radar. I actually believe this more than the EK "stories!"

I wondered why OZ hadn't appeared in YVR already. Considering that article was written almost a year ago (and a few market events have occurred since then), I wonder when "the longer term" actually expires?

EK's desire to serve any Canadian city other than daily YYZ and maybe a 3-4 weekly YVR is all bluster at the moment.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2009-03-12 20:46:43 and read 4065 times.



Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 108):

It may very well be, you are right. But, OZ has publicly stated YVR is on their radar. I actually believe this more than the EK "stories!"

Might it be due to the Korea/Canada 'open skies?'  spin 

I think EK would not only make money, but there would be a customer benefit for them to have more flights to Canada.

But there is a reason I have listed Canada and Germany as the two nations least likely to open up their bilaterals to EK; politically the will is against the added frequencies for EK.

I would prefer more hub to hub connections, but Cest la vie. Its unlikely in this economy.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Astuteman
Posted 2009-03-12 23:26:58 and read 3988 times.



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 28):
unless I was forced to fly EK coach...which I find very uncomfortable

Presumably that is in a 10-across 777?
At least an upgrade to an A380 would change that...  Wink

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 48):
So because they come close to filling a plane that holds a total of 358 (which is still 41 short of economy alone on the A380) so 90% of that 358 is 322 pax they get. So put on a plane that holds 489 and remain with that 322 pax... thats 167 open seats... doesn't make sense.

I suspect 90% LF's being the norm indicates that there is demand (possibly substantial) that is not being satisfied

Rgds

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Directorguy
Posted 2009-03-13 03:32:26 and read 3912 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 106):
Non-stop to where? Dubai? Sure, but the demand isn't there for 21 daily large or VLA flights a day from Canada to Dubai. Most of that demand would be onward connections, and all of those onward connections are already served, so it would not involve a growth of Canadian travel or commerce, simply a shift from one carrier to another.

Surely there would be a stimulation of the market? In many cases, an additional airline entering any given maket will provide more seats, lower fares in the market. People who mightn't have visited Canada before might think twice if they see low fares.
Just food for thought.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SQ_EK_freak
Posted 2009-03-13 07:25:30 and read 3824 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 106):
Somehow, EK is trying to convince everyone that connecting in DXB is really important and far more valuable than connecting in London, Tokyo, Frankfurt, Mumbai, Hong Kong, etc. even though there is more O&D demand to London, Tokyo, Frankfurt.

Well connecting through DXB is an additional option that would be offered to passengers that in all is a benefit, and if the fares EK offer are cheaper than rivals, again the customer benefits. The customer can also take advantage of transit packages that EK can offer at their hub that BA or LH and like most likely can't at London or Frankfurt or wherever.

More importantly, transit restrictions (or additional visa fees even for airside transit) at airports like LHR for certain nationalities would be bypassed by transiting in Dubai. In that regard, I can see in certain contexts, especially for Africa bound passengers holding restrictive passports, DXB as a transit hub might be valuable. As for more valuable than connecting through those other airports as you say, then agreed, I'm not so sure about that.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 106):
simply a shift from one carrier to another.

I feel as though you've nailed it here - that's the crux of the Canadian government's hesitancy to allow EK more frequencies to Canada. I'd imagine LH's transit traffic from Canada to various points the world would be impacted, and that in turn would also hurt AC (also for pax on AC connecting to onward Star Alliance flights in Europe) because of their ties through Star. That said, I'm not sure how extensive of a code share agreement AC has with LH or other Star partners from YYZ to South Asia and beyond.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 112):
Surely there would be a stimulation of the market? In many cases, an additional airline entering any given maket will provide more seats, lower fares in the market. People who mightn't have visited Canada before might think twice if they see low fares.

That's a valid counter argument to the Canadian government's stance (which I can understand as well).

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-03-13 08:02:07 and read 3795 times.



Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 113):
That said, I'm not sure how extensive of a code share agreement AC has with LH or other Star partners from YYZ to South Asia and beyond.

AC's relationship with LH goes beyond just being STAR Alliance members. They have a revenue sharing arrangement on flights from Canada to Germany.

The above comment about people wanting to use EK to escape the visa and other restrictions through LH I find interesting. I would imagine those same effected countries would also be impacted in Canada as well. I wonder how many of those people would be in Canada anyways? My feeling is if there was such a large demand for flights to India we would see more Jet and AI flights at YYZ added beyond daily and certainly YVR added instead of just talked about.

AC has shelved service to India due to the lack of higher return business passengers. As the economy continues to grow in India and business ties increase, and perhaps when the 787 is well distributed in the AC fleet maybe they will go restart service again. But with Call Centre and online service jobs returning to North America from India at a very strong pace, the growth will have to come from other areas. With AI joining Star, AC may not need to even re-enter the market.

Canada is a country with a very small population for its size. People forget that when they think of all these people connecting through places like Dubai.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: SQ_EK_freak
Posted 2009-03-13 08:47:52 and read 3759 times.



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 114):
AC's relationship with LH goes beyond just being STAR Alliance members. They have a revenue sharing arrangement on flights from Canada to Germany.

I suppose that means all the more reason for protection from the Canadian government.

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 114):
The above comment about people wanting to use EK to escape the visa and other restrictions through LH I find interesting. I would imagine those same effected countries would also be impacted in Canada as well. I wonder how many of those people would be in Canada anyways?

In transit yes Canada probably has the same restrictions, but if a student/resident/working visa has been issued in Canada, it doesn't mean that they don't still need a transit visa for the UK. And it goes beyond the scope of "rogue" countries like Iran or Syria. I had a friend in college who held a Nepalese passport (who is not listed as a "state sponsor of terrorism" or whatever jargon is used to describe failed/belligerent states - indeed, Nepal doesn't come up in most people's mind when thinking of states who pose a threat at all) who needed to pay a $90 fee even for an AIRSIDE transfer for her onward flight to Istanbul (for school). By the way, she held legal status in the USA and had been on a student visa for 4 years at that point. Needless to say she ditched the idea of BA quickly and took EK to DXB and backtracked to IST - overall she said she really enjoyed the flying experience though.

So if those kind of visa restrictions are in place for citizens of Nepal, I'd say citizens of various African nations are probably subjected to the same scrutiny? I don't know the exact regulations in place for specific countries (though I doubt Indian passport holders are subject to it...maybe Pakistan or Bangladesh though?)

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2009-03-13 09:17:31 and read 3744 times.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 111):
Presumably that is in a 10-across 777?

The 10 across didn't bother me...it was the quality of the seats. They just aren't comfortable.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2009-03-13 09:22:22 and read 3739 times.



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 114):
But with Call Centre and online service jobs returning to North America from India at a very strong pace, the growth will have to come from other areas. With AI joining Star, AC may not need to even re-enter the market.

The India-Canada passenger market is not really determined by call-centers and other outsourced services.....it's the huge Indian origin population in Canada that drives it.....

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: YVR1968
Posted 2009-03-13 18:46:41 and read 3626 times.



Quoting DavidYYC (Reply 98):
Said with quite a bit of glee!?



Quoting DavidYYC (Reply 98):
Sorry to disappoint, but I dont think the downturn be all that bad in Alberta

You may be right, the downturn may not be as bad as other jurisdictions, but did you read the latest unemployment stats for Alberta in February? 24,000 jobs lost. Manitoba and Sask actually showed emplyment gains, while BC lost only 4,900.

This is on top of the 16,000 lost in December and 5,700 in January.

So you might want to be rethink your "glee."

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...igher+than+Sask/1385596/story.html

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-03-13 19:06:25 and read 3606 times.



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 117):
Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 114):
But with Call Centre and online service jobs returning to North America from India at a very strong pace, the growth will have to come from other areas. With AI joining Star, AC may not need to even re-enter the market.

The India-Canada passenger market is not really determined by call-centers and other outsourced services.....it's the huge Indian origin population in Canada that drives it.....

I was refering to business connections and citing one area that was currently declining. The large South Asian community and travel to visit relatives and friends, is more cost sensitive than business travel. It is also less lucrative than business travel for the airlines.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Huaiwei
Posted 2009-03-14 08:44:36 and read 3456 times.



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 104):
You've missed the point. We've established that EK won't be expanding service to take advantage of Canada-UAE O&D traffic, mainly because such a market is insignificant. EK wants all the connecting traffic to India in particular. Those are the flights that we can already obtain through hubs in North America or across either northern ocean. If there's a legitimate nonstop market for any city pair in Canada and a second country, then by all means, any airline is welcome to provide service.

No I do not think I have missed your point. In fact, I understand it so well that when put in very simple terms, that is precisely what you are arguing.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 104):
Says a member from Singapore, whose home airline has announced retreat after years of being denied the chance to undermine other carriers' (domestic and international) service to and from Canada.

I would love to know how that is true, particularly on AC's domestic services. SQ must be a truly powerful company to be able to accomplish all that with just a thrice-weekly flight to one Canadian destination!

Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 105):
I hear what you are saying, but I think you have blown what people are trying to say well out of context. You have to look at each market and analyse if a non-stop route is warranted

Whether a non-stop route is warranted or not is up to the airlines to work out. Not for governments or airliners.net bureaucrats to debate over.

Quoting YVR1968 (Reply 105):
I think you need to read what people are saying more carefully before jumping to some crazy conclusion like your's.

As said earlier, I am pretty sure I fully understand the main arguments, as well as the underlying messages hidden within them. But when one flashes these arguments out at face value, suddenly their arguments begin to look plain silly, which is exactly what it is from day one.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 106):
Non-stop to where? Dubai? Sure, but the demand isn't there for 21 daily large or VLA flights a day from Canada to Dubai. Most of that demand would be onward connections, and all of those onward connections are already served, so it would not involve a growth of Canadian travel or commerce, simply a shift from one carrier to another.

And why should it be yours or the Canadian government's concern whether an airline can sustain 21 daily VLA flights, or whether these flights involve onward connections or not? If an airline cannot sustain those flights, they loose money and withdraw. If they need to use onward connections to sustain them, then that's their business decision.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-03-14 16:21:00 and read 3346 times.



Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 120):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 106):
Non-stop to where? Dubai? Sure, but the demand isn't there for 21 daily large or VLA flights a day from Canada to Dubai. Most of that demand would be onward connections, and all of those onward connections are already served, so it would not involve a growth of Canadian travel or commerce, simply a shift from one carrier to another.

And why should it be yours or the Canadian government's concern whether an airline can sustain 21 daily VLA flights, or whether these flights involve onward connections or not? If an airline cannot sustain those flights, they loose money and withdraw. If they need to use onward connections to sustain them, then that's their business decision.

A government-owned airline with deep pockets can stand to lose money much longer than privately-owned airlines like those based in North America. Governments have to put some limits on that kind of activity which can affect the financial viability of their own airline industry. The Canadian government has generally been quite flexible in permitting new airline service but there should be a significant O&D component.

I expect the current major traffic downturn worldwide due to the financial crisis will cause many governments to be less supportive of open skies than in the past.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2009-03-14 21:32:46 and read 3271 times.

This has certainly turned out to be an interesting thread. Is it now fair to conclude that EK is a poacher and the restrictions Canada has imposed are appropriate? It's quite shocking to see how EK is trying to manipulate the Canadian government through the public and media. If I were EK I would be embarrassed!

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: JAL
Posted 2009-03-15 04:54:04 and read 3169 times.

I hope they will gain more access to Canada but unfortunately they might not get it since the Canadian government will want to protect Air Canada from competitions!

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: Pnwtraveler
Posted 2009-03-16 08:10:08 and read 2960 times.



Quoting JAL (Reply 123):
I hope they will gain more access to Canada but unfortunately they might not get it since the Canadian government will want to protect Air Canada from competitions!

You mustn't have read much of this thread. AC has been on record as in favour of open skies and would love to pick up passengers in the US and fly on to other destinations. They win the cross border best business class service from a number of publications so have demonstrated the product they offer.

In no way has the government ever not entered into a bilateral agreement with a carrier based simply on competition. Unfair competition cannot be included in the same category.

Topic: RE: EK Continues Push For Access To Canada
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2009-03-16 09:23:54 and read 2911 times.

Emirates has announced the deployment of the A380 on the Toronto route. Since the current thread seems to have run its course and a new topic has been started about this airline's service to Canada, this thread is now archived.

You may also visit the new thread on the A380 service here.


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