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Topic: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-03-30 17:54:15 and read 12689 times.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D978JPT80&show_article=1

Apparently the guy was on a DL flight from JFK to LAS and they had been sitting in the taxi-way for several hours waiting for a takeoff slot.

I totally sympathize with this guy. Just yesterday, I was on a somewhat delayed AA flight EWR to MIA and after we pushed back from the gate (about 1 hour late), the captain announced that ATC says we won't take off for at least an hour.

At that point I started looking in my carry-on bag to see if I had any rope with which I could hang myself...  tombstone 

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Daleaholic
Posted 2009-03-30 18:01:30 and read 12676 times.

He deserves everything he gets. I have no sympathy for him because he's clearly a fool. If he can't handle a delay then he needs to get a grip.

The rest of the plane was waiting for the same length of time, I bet there was some kids on that plane too! They could handle a delay... IDIOT!

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: ThegreatRDU
Posted 2009-03-30 18:22:30 and read 12571 times.

Yea I heard he's a 60 year old man.

But flying out of the New York area what do you expect with HPN, JFK, LGA, TEB, EWR to name a few sharing airspace....the skies are too congested or inclement weather is a nightmare....but what this man did is unacceptable and he ruined it for everybody.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: 707lvr
Posted 2009-03-30 21:51:18 and read 12324 times.

"I bet there was some kids on that plane too!"

As if that would be a reason to remain on board interminably? At least the poor slob got off the damned plane and will probably spend less time in jail than he would have in the taxi line.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Crownvic
Posted 2009-03-30 22:05:12 and read 12269 times.

I do not get why this person is considered an "idiot". Perhaps it is the other 150 passengers that are the idiots because they put up with this crap...In the old days, a delay meant 15-20 minutes. It did not mean sitting on an aircraft for hours at a time being treated like a caged animal. Twenty Five years ago, airlines would never do what they are doing to passengers today, but we are all expected to just sit there and be abused because it is considered acceptable now? Give me a break...It is this sort of mentality that is allowing the airlines to continue to get away with this sort of treatment.

By the way. I flew 25 years ago. If you were fogged in at LHR, the a/c came back to the gate, off loaded the passengers, fed them and put them in a hotel until the next day and apologized (even though it was beyond their control). Unfortunately though, like everything else in today's disfucional society, we should all just accept mistreatment as the norm. That is why flying is so miserable today...

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: JOEYCAPPS
Posted 2009-03-30 22:05:12 and read 12269 times.

How great for the other pax.

As if waiting isnt bad enough, you start making progress towards takeoff, then have to go back to the gate, just to take this idiot off, and start allllll over again.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: IAD51FL
Posted 2009-03-30 23:22:47 and read 12151 times.



Quoting Crownvic (Reply 4):
By the way. I flew 25 years ago. If you were fogged in at LHR, the a/c came back to the gate, off loaded the passengers, fed them and put them in a hotel until the next day and apologized (even though it was beyond their control). Unfortunately though, like everything else in today's disfucional society, we should all just accept mistreatment as the norm. That is why flying is so miserable today...

Ya, if you do that now you get swore at, told where to go and other not nice stuff because people don’t want to wait till tomorrow... they want to go NOW! It doesn't matter if there is a large storm over the airport and its hailing, they want to be put on another flight now.

The issue is we have became an instant gratification society... its all about speed and what can I get. Just listen to some of the postings on here... 2 minutes after a flight diverts there is someone on here wanting to know who, what, when, where and why. Sometimes the info just made it into the system. If a flight doesn’t board fast enough people complain, if their bags take 2 minutes more than it took them to walk from the plane to baggage claim they complain.

Oh.... the CO739's don’t have PTVs... my day is totally ruined... or I cant believe I am not upgraded yet... I have been watching it and nothings happened..

Get a grip people, life sucks......just move on. Sit back and relax, don’t plan to arrive into a city 1 hour before the meeting that will save your company because more than likely you will be late.

People say...bring back the fares 25 yrs ago and the experience will be better..... I call BS on that idea because we will still have the type of people flying now. I say bring back the passengers that flew 25 years ago, then maybe the experience will be better....


Chris

P.S. Sorry for the rant.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-03-30 23:25:41 and read 12146 times.



Quoting Crownvic (Reply 4):
It did not mean sitting on an aircraft for hours at a time being treated like a caged animal.

Exactly right. This "sit on the plane forever" phenomenon is relatively recent. It used to be, you would sit in the gate area. The caged animal analogy is pretty apt. That's how it feels.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: IAD51FL
Posted 2009-03-30 23:32:37 and read 12122 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Exactly right. This "sit on the plane forever" phenomenon is relatively recent. It used to be, you would sit in the gate area. The caged animal analogy is pretty apt. That's how it feels.

It started when they stopped allowing aircraft to take off and circle until they could land. I remember back when you could look out the window and see 5-8 planes circling waiting to land. Now ATC gives out a time.... then starts a Ground Stop which voids that time...then clears the ground stop and issues a new time... then as you are ready to go they throw another ground stop on with an hour update time.

Meanwhile the DOT auctions off more slots at JFK, LGA, EWR just adding to the mess.

Chris

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: JOEYCAPPS
Posted 2009-03-30 23:41:24 and read 12096 times.



Quoting IAD51FL (Reply 6):

110% agree.

Not just that, but everyone wants to be the first to point fingers. Because in this day and age, no matter what the circumstances (be it weather, murder, or divine intervention) SOMEONE has to be held accountable for EVERYTHING. Its snowing and the runways are iced? Its XYZ Airline's fault. They're incompetant. They didnt tell us when we'd be leaving. As if the airline has a crystal ball?

I get a good kick just listening to fellow pax everytime I fly. They say some of the stupidest, craziest and most rediculous things you'll ever hear.

Fact of the matter is, in the situation in this thread, as well as every other one... There are hundreds of people in the same predicament. Its pointless for one self-proclaimed "passenger rights advocate of flight 200" to challenge airline ops.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2009-03-31 00:13:13 and read 12013 times.

No wonder the guy was from England - it is hardly possible to be stuck for hours on tarmac anywhere in Europe.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: TristarSteve
Posted 2009-03-31 01:34:18 and read 11858 times.



Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 2):
But flying out of the New York area what do you expect with HPN, JFK, LGA, TEB, EWR to name a few

Thats the problem. You live in NYC, and you expect to be delayed on the taxyway. This guy comes from England, and he is not expecting it. Yes we have ground stops and ATC delays, but you usually wait at the gate. Each aircraft has its own take off slot, and starts up and taxies out to meet it. This NYC thing of rows of aircraft standing in line with engines running would not work in Europe. Some environment team would ban it!!!!

So NYC travellers, stop expecting delays, do something about it.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Mascmo
Posted 2009-03-31 01:47:01 and read 11833 times.

I sure hope I am not on a plane with him when we get put into holding for and hour or two!!! Who is to say he wont pull a stunt like this in the air?!?!  Wow!

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Thestooges
Posted 2009-03-31 02:49:32 and read 11721 times.

There actually once was an incident at TXL where passengers had been kept on an Air Berlin flight for a few hours and some of them actually had to call the local police so they could get off the plane. As far as I remember the police actually did come to "rescue" them.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: 2175301
Posted 2009-03-31 03:47:33 and read 11631 times.

It is not true that similar delays - with passangers did not happen years ago: I have one very unfond memory of sitting at Atlanta in a Delta flight for hours waiting for takeoff on a hot sunny day - and the cabin heating up as well... in 1995; but that was really very rare, and Delta worked very hard to make ammends (like a free ticket for our troubles).

I do believe that the current situation is a mess and really should not be tolerated. I don't care where you are flying from. Unless there is an emergency or some very unusual event there is no reason that planes should board and leave the gate until they can be moved into a relatively quick take-off slot. Likewise there is no reason for a plane to land - and not be able to relatively quickly taxi to an open gate unless there is some kind of very unusual event (I recall one NW flight a couple of years ago that it took us well over an hour from landing to get to a gate). Its called planning, and I am quite sure that the airlines employ people who can do that if they wanted too.

I don't know anyone who is lining up for a trip and wants to sit on a plane for hours. I do know a lot of people who no longer trust the published schedules of the airlines in the US.

I don't know what the solution is; but I do know that I have extended my driving range out to 12 hours instead of taking a flight - all because I actually get there on time and without hassels (and because by the time I pack for airtravel - checkin early - go through security - wait, etc, etc, land, get my baggage, get a rental car, etc - is far to often a 10+ hour trip anyway).

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2009-03-31 03:48:25 and read 11631 times.

The more people there are in the world...the less the quality is going to be.... that's my theory...

space travel now and very soon will be what super luxury airline flying used to be...
and then in 50 years, space travel will be, what we are at now with airline travel....

once you let everyone into the ring, everyone buys a plane, slaps on a logo, claims a unique business and service plan...blah blah...

nowadays you should just be lucky to get to where you're going in this world with all that's going on !!

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Carlisle
Posted 2009-03-31 05:03:52 and read 11520 times.

I must admit that the guy is utterly mad for doing such a thing (maybe another great example of an attention seeker?) On the other hand, I want to give this gentleman the benefit of the doubt as the flight originated in FCO. (http://news.uk.msn.com/world/article.aspx?cp-documentid=15563174) I would want to leave the plane just as much as he after being on the aircraft for that long. The least the flight crew could do would be to let me go into the flight deck and let me have a looksy.  Wink

Cheers,
Jeremy Carlisle

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Pilotboi
Posted 2009-03-31 06:22:59 and read 11368 times.



Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
I totally sympathize with this guy. Just yesterday, I was on a somewhat delayed AA flight EWR to MIA and after we pushed back from the gate (about 1 hour late), the captain announced that ATC says we won't take off for at least an hour.

At that point I started looking in my carry-on bag to see if I had any rope with which I could hang myself..

So you're saying you couldn't survive a trans-continental flight? Say EWR-DEN? That's about an hour longer. And I guess you'll never fly all the way to the west coast? Or Europe? Wow, you've really limited yourself.

Okay seriously, I understand your planned flight didn't include the extra hour...but shit happens that is out of the airline's control. So what if you're in the aircraft for an hour longer.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Chase
Posted 2009-03-31 06:35:22 and read 11247 times.



Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 15):
The more people there are in the world...the less the quality is going to be.... that's my theory...

Precisely. More people = more demand for flights = more flights = more ATC delays. Not a whole lot that can (or at least, will be) done about it, though.
* Next-gen ATC is years away
* The trend of many frequent flights isn't going away, because it's the kind of thing that would require airlines to work in concert - otherwise the first one to stick its neck out is the one to get its head cut off.
* The "wayport" idea would reduce air congestion, but would also cost billions and increase travel time, so it will never get off the ground
* I favor the idea of using high speed rail for trips under about 300nm and aircraft for trips longer than that, but these systems can't be dropped into place overnight. Here in the US, the Midwest High Speed Rail Initiative has something like a 12-year buildout plan, with no set start date, and you know in this litigious society if and when they do start it's going to be delayed by years and years.
* Population certainly isn't going to plateau anytime soon

I hate to sound pessimistic, but I don't see a solution.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2009-03-31 06:55:11 and read 11026 times.



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 11):

Thats the problem. You live in NYC, and you expect to be delayed on the taxyway. This guy comes from England, and he is not expecting it. Yes we have ground stops and ATC delays, but you usually wait at the gate. Each aircraft has its own take off slot, and starts up and taxies out to meet it. This NYC thing of rows of aircraft standing in line with engines running would not work in Europe. Some environment team would ban it!!!!

So NYC travellers, stop expecting delays, do something about it.

Nope. They won't. And this is one of myriad reasons why I believe the U.S. is a crumbling nation. We can't even pay attention to our own infrastructure.

While in Europe, people handle issues like this, in the U.S. slot-control is "uncompetitive" and "socialist" and all the airlines wail and complain like they have some god-given right to clog JFK-SFO with FIFTY 737s/A320s every day.

American complacency and unwillingness to fix our own problems is going to be our downfall.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-03-31 07:02:48 and read 10928 times.



Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 17):
So you're saying you couldn't survive a trans-continental flight? Say EWR-DEN? That's about an hour longer. And I guess you'll never fly all the way to the west coast? Or Europe? Wow, you've really limited yourself.

Hahaha.... no...... I fly transcon MIA-LAX all the time.... and it's always ON-time and usually early gettting into LAX.

And yeah, it wasn't the greatest having to sit an extra hour and a half in the AA Flagship Suite at LHR while they had to fix something on the plane before we could begin the 10 hour flight back to MIA, but it was a quite civilized experience.

What sucks is, as someone pointed out earlier, that you are basically a caged animal once they close the door and push you back and you have absolutely no idea of when you will actually be let out. Will it be the stated 45 minute wait on the ground? Will it be extended another 45 minutes? Will it be extended another 2 hours?

It's the uncertainty of the whole thing that really bugs me - especially since, in my view, the pax could be kept in the gate area until the flight gets their ATC slot (which happens, I believe, 30 minutes before the wheels up time?), load the pax, push back, taxi out and take off.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Tonyban
Posted 2009-03-31 07:51:05 and read 10413 times.

I have 100% sympathy for this guy. There should be a rule that 60 minutes is the maximum time allowed for a 'delay'. This equates to false imprisonment. If I walk into a restaurant and have to sit for hours before getting served, I have the right take my business elsewhere.
What this guy did was wrong, but somewhere along this line, the airlines are violating
peoples' right by making them sit in a seat for hours with they're seatbelts on.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Davescj
Posted 2009-03-31 08:36:04 and read 9973 times.



Quoting Tonyban (Reply 21):
I have 100% sympathy for this guy. There should be a rule that 60 minutes is the maximum time allowed for a 'delay'. This equates to false imprisonment

While I have sympathy, it isn't 100%. However, I do think incidents like this point to overcrowding of skies and mis-managment of gates. I think the US need to do what Europe has done -- move to a pax bill of rights.

Article said only "hours" delay, but doesn't specify where (or at least not that I noticed).

If the delay is going to be "hours" the plane should simply not be allowed to push off. Better to let people walk around, eat, go to the bathroom....

But, it comes down also, to the fact we have to stop adding flights to over crowed airports. But how to make that happen is another drama.

Dave

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2009-03-31 09:12:16 and read 9640 times.

Not clear how long these people had been on the plane.

The longest that I can recall was 1 hour at ATH in 1995. According to the pilot, everyone had to wait until OA went first.

I am constantly amazed at the willingness of passengers to be treated worse than cargo.

On another thread, someone seemed to be saying that delays up to 6 hours are acceptable.

I can only say that some carriers have had it too easy for too long.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: SuseJ772
Posted 2009-03-31 10:12:22 and read 9021 times.



Quoting IAD51FL (Reply 6):
The issue is we have became an instant gratification society... its all about speed and what can I get.

I agree completely. The people I feel most sorry for are gate agents and flight attendants. They have to deal with all that crap!

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
It's the uncertainty of the whole thing that really bugs me

I agree. If you could tell me for sure that we are leaving in 45 minutes, no problem. But the it is the idea that 45 minutes could turn into two hours or more that mentally is a killer.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Litz
Posted 2009-03-31 11:06:23 and read 8587 times.



Quoting 2175301 (Reply 14):
It is not true that similar delays - with passangers did not happen years ago: I have one very unfond memory of sitting at Atlanta in a Delta flight for hours waiting for takeoff on a hot sunny day - and the cabin heating up as well... in 1995; but that was really very rare, and Delta worked very hard to make ammends (like a free ticket for our troubles).

I had a similar incident several years back, when I was still traveling for work.

Long, long delay (mechanical, it turned out) in Melbourne, FL ... there was an emailed apology in my inbox and a Skymiles credit posted before I even got home.

- litz

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2009-03-31 11:13:04 and read 8840 times.



Quoting IAD51FL (Reply 6):
Ya, if you do that now you get swore at, told where to go and other not nice stuff because people don’t want to wait till tomorrow... they want to go NOW! It doesn't matter if there is a large storm over the airport and its hailing, they want to be put on another flight now.

The issue is we have became an instant gratification society... its all about speed and what can I get. Just listen to some of the postings on here... 2 minutes after a flight diverts there is someone on here wanting to know who, what, when, where and why. Sometimes the info just made it into the system. If a flight doesn’t board fast enough people complain, if their bags take 2 minutes more than it took them to walk from the plane to baggage claim they complain.

Oh.... the CO739's don’t have PTVs... my day is totally ruined... or I cant believe I am not upgraded yet... I have been watching it and nothings happened..

Get a grip people, life sucks......just move on. Sit back and relax, don’t plan to arrive into a city 1 hour before the meeting that will save your company because more than likely you will be late.

People say...bring back the fares 25 yrs ago and the experience will be better..... I call BS on that idea because we will still have the type of people flying now. I say bring back the passengers that flew 25 years ago, then maybe the experience will be better....


Chris

P.S. Sorry for the rant.

No need to apologize, I personally couldn't agree with you more!!!!!

The problem is people who already live within this mentality will NEVER see themselves for what they are. I post on here a lot from a crew perspective, and I've frequently admitted the downfalls that some of my colleagues (and I'm sure I myself) have exhibited to our passengers, but I have NEVER read a single post of any pax admitting they were wrong... it's always always always always someone else's fault, responsibility, job, decision, etc etc.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2009-03-31 11:18:47 and read 8774 times.



Quoting Davescj (Reply 22):

While I have sympathy, it isn't 100%. However, I do think incidents like this point to overcrowding of skies and mis-managment of gates. I think the US need to do what Europe has done -- move to a pax bill of rights.

I agree, but also the U.S. needs to partially re-regulate the industry to stop the over-congestion.

Slots at congested airports need to be limited. It's not infringing on a free market to mandate that an airport/ATC center only be permitted to be scheduled to capacity and no higher. We would go a LONG way towards eliminating delays in this country if we slot-controlled NYC airports.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: CO787EWR
Posted 2009-03-31 11:28:35 and read 8674 times.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
I agree, but also the U.S. needs to partially re-regulate the industry to stop the over-congestion.

Slots at congested airports need to be limited. It's not infringing on a free market to mandate that an airport/ATC center only be permitted to be scheduled to capacity and no higher. We would go a LONG way towards eliminating delays in this country if we slot-controlled NYC airports.

IIRC arent the NYC airports limited to a certain number of takeoffs and landings per hour...

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: IAirAllie
Posted 2009-03-31 11:39:57 and read 8578 times.



Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
It's the uncertainty of the whole thing that really bugs me



Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 24):
I agree. If you could tell me for sure that we are leaving in 45 minutes, no problem. But the it is the idea that 45 minutes could turn into two hours or more that mentally is a killer.

Some things in life are uncertain, it sucks, deal with it. The airline cannot give you answers that do not exist.

I'd rather not be held in the gaten area for hours. Have you ever been in an airport like ORD when there are delays or cancellations. It is a disaster you can hardly walk there are people all over the floors. The airport can only comfortably hold so many people. At least on the aircraft you are guaranteed a place to sit and on the pushed back aircraft you are at least in line for departure.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-03-31 12:10:07 and read 8315 times.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 29):
Some things in life are uncertain, it sucks, deal with it.

Yeah, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way with regards to the issue of flight delays and keeping pax on the plane pushed back 20 feet from the gate.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 29):
I'd rather not be held in the gaten area for hours. Have you ever been in an airport like ORD when there are delays or cancellations. It is a disaster you can hardly walk there are people all over the floors. The airport can only comfortably hold so many people.

I'd take sitting on the floor of an airport where at least I have more room and have the option to walk around, get something to eat, etc. than being in a 17" wide coach seat with 31" pitch for an uncertain number of hours before even getting airborne.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 29):
At least on the aircraft you are guaranteed a place to sit and on the pushed back aircraft you are at least in line for departure.

How about a new rule at the airports. Only push within 10 minutes of your wheels up time?

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Warren84
Posted 2009-03-31 12:24:54 and read 8193 times.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 29):
I'd rather not be held in the gaten area for hours. Have you ever been in an airport like ORD when there are delays or cancellations. It is a disaster you can hardly walk there are people all over the floors. The airport can only comfortably hold so many people. At least on the aircraft you are guaranteed a place to sit and on the pushed back aircraft you are at least in line for departure.

Seriously? I'd rather be able to eat and drink, go to the bathroom whenever I want, and if need be just give up and go home or find some other way out if it's a really serious delay.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2009-03-31 12:38:26 and read 8063 times.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 29):

Some things in life are uncertain, it sucks, deal with it. The airline cannot give you answers that do not exist.

Yup, but when it becomes routine, it's a problem. Delays like this at NYC airports aren't the exception, they are the norm. I have had ONE on-time departure out of a NYC airport ever, and that was the first flight of the morning.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: 764
Posted 2009-03-31 12:41:42 and read 8028 times.

Well, I think this problem could easily be alleviated if airlines were required to serve passengers complimentary beverages at least every 30 minutes and a free meal after two hours of ground delay. They'd think twice about boarding the plane knowing that there is no chance that it'll take off any time soon. And that is the worst thing about the whole issue. Gate agents are oftentimes instructed to get people aboard although the company knows full well that the flight won't go anywhere soon. However, passengers tend to complain less on board than in the gate area as they think they may get into trouble (as this guy did). Also, passengers might just fly somebody else when they are left to wait in the terminal for too long (yes, that is possible, even on a cheapo ticket and often even if you have luggage). once they are on board, the airline can be sure to keep their money.

So essentially this is a way of keeping pax quiet and maximizing revenue. I would in no way be surprised to see airlines starting an "on the ground buy on board service" soon. But if there were a law that made the airline provide free stuff while pax are on board, the whole thing would fix itself. And the airline can't use an excuse like "act of god" or "weather", as it was their own stupid decision to put people on board.

The way I see it, it all comes down to money. Most airline employees are now required to leave their common sense and compassion in the staff lounge when they walk into the terminal.......

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Irishmd11
Posted 2009-03-31 12:48:22 and read 7965 times.



Quoting Acabgd (Reply 10):
No wonder the guy was from England - it is hardly possible to be stuck for hours on tarmac anywhere in Europe.

Are you joking mate? I remember, due to a freak snowfall, sitting on board an Aer Lingus A320 for more than 3 hours after boarding, before we finally managed to leave from DUB to GVA (home to home).

They refused to let us back into the terminal, refused any food service for roughly 120 minutes, which meant that we had nothing but "peanuts" during the flight...

I felt truly sorry however, for the people on board a A330 parked to our right side and was bound for JFK...

The poor chap's strife reminds me however of my dear borther who used to work in aviation. On one of his regular MIA-JFK-GVA flights he was 26th in the line for takeoff at JFK...

Is mise!

Gerry

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2009-03-31 12:54:36 and read 7894 times.



Quoting 764 (Reply 33):
Most airline employees are now required to leave their common sense and compassion in the staff lounge when they walk into the terminal.......

Yes, while the passengers stroll the terminals full of knowledge, ever-expanding intelligence, empathy, understanding and patience..... puh-leeze!

I work VERY VERY hard and I promise you no flight I have ever worked was EVER compromised in the ways you mentioned because personally I would refuse to work it. Have I been delayed, sure, have I sat out on the tarmac for hours... yes! I've diverted, utilized a gate to allow pax access to restrooms and food, then re-boarded gone and parked for hours on end... others have to have access to those gates too. You just deal with it.

Someone said there's shouldn't be more planes than there are gates. It's not that easy. In fact NOTHING that passengers ever come up with is that simple. They seem to think their flight is the ONLY flight, that the delay is some conspiracy (right because the airlines are making sooo much money that we can afford to delay you, cancel you and reroute you for the sheer inconvenience of it all) and that in a MX issue we just have spare planes lying around (sort of like how all pax have 3 extra cars in the even their breaks down?)

I think overall the airlines and MOST airline employees work very very hard for the well-being of their pax, and I think in general most pax handle delays well, but then you get a few who think they've got it all figured out. The problem... a raft with holes in it (much like their logic) only carries them so far.

Sometimes life sucks, everyone has said it, and with people wanting to pay less, and want the convenience of a departure every 6 minutes, and want to show up 13 mins before pushback, and want and want and want... without paying for it, it won't improve. We need more capacity controls in delayed markets. Why allow 30 50-seat planes into a NY airport vs just offering 15 100-seat aircraft? That's less planes in the sky... I'm certainly not a planner or revenue manager etc but that seems like simple math to me. Sure there won't be as much frequency but something's got to give.

People need to be more realistic and stop acting like schizophrenics all paranoid over everything. If you crew can survive then so can the pax. I buy myself food in the airport (just like you all) and I carry energy bars in my bag and I drink water on the plane (the same water we serve during delays... ) People need to take more responsibility for themselves and quit blaming everyone else... and if they want the commercial aviation landscape to change then people need to realize they'll have to sacrifice something, be it convenience, money etc.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Davescj
Posted 2009-03-31 12:58:13 and read 7852 times.



Quoting 764 (Reply 33):
Well, I think this problem could easily be alleviated if airlines were required to serve passengers complimentary beverages at least every 30 minutes and a free meal after two hours of ground delay

A crew member said, someone else is always blamed. I would agree. That's what we hear about. In part, because we live in a BLAME BLAME BLAME society. That is part of it. Also, the fact that everything is SUE SUE SUE is an issue.

All that said, I still think we need a pax bill of rights. Crew/airlines are protected by law (as thy should be). Now, let's do the flip side. Protect the customers.

As to bev/food. I would like to hightlight a Freedom Air (operating as DL connection, PHL -- JFK) I was on in Dec. As the flight was short, it was a request for food/bev. only. However, we had a mx and a ground delay in PHL. The FA was excellent in bringing water, drinks, and snack basket without being asked, due to the delay.

I think most FAs are great. I have not ever had an FA I even thought about complaining about. I think that is the norm, we sadly, only hear about the exceptions.

Dave

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: XJetflyer
Posted 2009-03-31 13:22:30 and read 7623 times.

I don't think he's an idiot if your sitting on a plane for several hours. I think sitting for an hour or two is not fun but acceptable. If your trying to tell me anything over two hours is ok then you are the idiot!

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: IAirAllie
Posted 2009-03-31 13:33:02 and read 7551 times.



Quoting Davescj (Reply 36):
The FA was excellent in bringing water, drinks, and snack basket without being asked, due to the delay.

BTW when ever I hear of an onboard delay of any length I immediately do a water service and hand deliver other drinks on demand. If the delay grows I take out snacks and do more drinks. Supplies permitting of course. If I am on a plane with IFE I always start the IFE as soon as the delay is announced. I've been the passenger many times too so I can relate (my company buys full fare tickets to get me to my working flights). I once spent 8 hours on the ground in Sapporo on the way to Tokyo from Portland. So the 8 hour delay was after a trans-pacific flight. The FA's didn't offer water once on the ground, horrifying. By the time they were able to procure us terminal entry we were all so thirsty we shared a single cup and drank water from the dishwashing sink at the closed snackbar it was that or the bathroom sinks.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Hiflyer
Posted 2009-03-31 14:04:46 and read 7313 times.

Classic story..even made Life Magazine...lady on a DC10 LGA to PBI in snowstorm had a few cocktails....flight delayed out on the field due to weather....started stating if flight didn't take off then she would...take off her clothes....nice pix of her wrapped in a coat in the cockpit with a few grinning crew members...no charges filed.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2009-03-31 14:11:31 and read 7247 times.



Quoting Tonyban (Reply 21):
There should be a rule that 60 minutes is the maximum time allowed for a 'delay'.

Isnt that already in the passenger bill of rights?

Does anyone remember that incident where the AA aircraft was on the ground for 6 hours or so during the holidays? I think this was a couple years ago at JFK.

If an aircraft is going to be delayed for an hour while on the taxiway, why not just taxi back to the gate for heavens sake?! It isnt that difficult.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2009-03-31 14:16:07 and read 7193 times.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 40):
If an aircraft is going to be delayed for an hour while on the taxiway, why not just taxi back to the gate for heavens sake?! It isnt that difficult.

Because that gate is already being utilized by another aircraft and so on and so forth...

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: IAirAllie
Posted 2009-03-31 14:19:37 and read 7177 times.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 40):
If an aircraft is going to be delayed for an hour while on the taxiway, why not just taxi back to the gate for heavens sake?! It isnt that difficult.

It isn't that simple.

It would be that simple if there were no more than one aircraft per gate, all gates and all equipment were universal (ie worked with all aircraft types), you had unlimited amounts of ground staff on hand, you had unlimited amounts of ground equipment on hand, if the weather conditions causing the delay were never unsafe to ground staff (they cannot work in lightning), if you didn't have to worry about loosing a slot, if you didn't have to consider crew duty regs. and timing out with a gate return, if you could re-board instantaneously when a small window of opportunity opens up instead of spending long periods of time rounding up stray passengers.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2009-03-31 18:01:39 and read 5817 times.



Quoting Irishmd11 (Reply 34):
Quoting Acabgd (Reply 10):
No wonder the guy was from England - it is hardly possible to be stuck for hours on tarmac anywhere in Europe.



Quoting Irishmd11 (Reply 34):
Are you joking mate? I remember, due to a freak snowfall, sitting on board an Aer Lingus A320 for more than 3 hours

Hey, "freak snowfall" is something only a blind guy could not see out of his window. There's really not much an airline can do at that point.

As far as I understand, there was no "freak weather" around NYC area at the time this happened, it was simply "a delay".

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-03-31 19:04:00 and read 5750 times.



Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
It's the uncertainty of the whole thing that really bugs me - especially since, in my view, the pax could be kept in the gate area until the flight gets their ATC slot (which happens, I believe, 30 minutes before the wheels up time?), load the pax, push back, taxi out and take off.

The uncertainty does suck. But it's nowhere near as simple as you make it out to be. Wheels-up times can change frequently without warning, and I certainly wouldn't want to miss mine on account of being at the gate with the passengers scattered to the four winds. If sitting out on the taxiways will increase my chances of departing closer to schedule, I'll be happy to sit. Yes, it's not fun, but at the end of the day, the primary purpose of me paying for an airline ticket is to get from A to B.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 40):
If an aircraft is going to be delayed for an hour while on the taxiway, why not just taxi back to the gate for heavens sake?! It isnt that difficult.

Actually, it can be pretty difficult. Is a gate open? Is the ramp open? Is there a taxi route available, one that won't take half an hour to get back to the gate? Sometimes the answer to one or more of those questions is "no".

-Mir

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-03-31 19:17:42 and read 5709 times.

And I just wrote the following a few hours ago. . .

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
The mess you get now is because of the current "at cost pricing". Airlines love it because they get to abuse our airports, creating mass congestion. And it doesn't matter to the airlines because 1) there is no alternative airport in most places and all competitors are affected and 2) you're already locked in the plane with no way out so who cares? But the sad thing is our elected "leaders" rely on airlines to make aviation policy (many employees = many voters), so a change there isn't likely to ever happen. Even some airport privatizations have prompted airline lobby groups to pull strings and have the authorities regulate how airports can charge landing fees.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4369148/

Point #2 is especially appropriate  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Osiris30
Posted 2009-03-31 19:54:29 and read 5634 times.



Quoting WNCrew (Reply 26):
The problem is people who already live within this mentality will NEVER see themselves for what they are. I post on here a lot from a crew perspective, and I've frequently admitted the downfalls that some of my colleagues (and I'm sure I myself) have exhibited to our passengers, but I have NEVER read a single post of any pax admitting they were wrong... it's always always always always someone else's fault, responsibility, job, decision, etc etc.

Respectfully, welcome to the service sector. You signed up to deal with people and people have been like that for a while in some places. Now, having said that I always *try* to treat others as I would have them treat me, but in honesty, there comes a point where I feel I've been more than reasonable. Hours and hours sitting on a taxiway are one of those times where I start getting 'uppity'. It's the whole sitting there doing sweet f-a, not knowing when you're going that drives people nuts.

Now I fully realize you folks (crew) would just as soon get where you're going as well, but I think to blame the passengers for these problems is a bit on the ridiculous side. We get on the plane when you tell us. Not all PAX flip a lid when their flight is delayed (I don't unless it's a true emergency, of which I've had *one* in my life. In fact on flights I've been on that are overbooked, I'll volunteer to bump back one flight if I can. I'd rather be on a plane with a spare seat than a crammed full aircraft).

Finally if the PAX want to piss and moan and 'go now', let them piss and moan, and write them off as the as*holes they are. A few as*hole PAX are NOT a good enough reason to keep everyone else stuck on a taxiway. Keep the aircraft at the gate until it can be off in 30 minutes. People who bitch can either a) go elsewhere or b) STFU and deal.

On the ground it's my problem as a PAX. On the aircraft (ground or air) it's now the airline's problem sorry.

Quoting Mir (Reply 44):
Actually, it can be pretty difficult. Is a gate open? Is the ramp open? Is there a taxi route available, one that won't take half an hour to get back to the gate? Sometimes the answer to one or more of those questions is "no".

Mir: No really, it's *not* that difficult. You can handle x movements a minute. Average taxi time (assuming no stopages) is y from gate to runway. Once you build up a taxi-queue 5-10 minutes deep you hold all flights at the gate, and ripple all the timing from there. You can mathematically work it all out. FedEX and UPS can move *millions* of parcels a day around the whole world and we can't move 500 aircraft around an airport?? You *must* be kidding me. If they don't get off the gate when there's nowhere to go, all your problems above are avoided.

Occasionally the system may break down, but that should be the exception, NOT the rule.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-03-31 20:25:20 and read 5580 times.



Quote:
Flight delays cost economy $41B in '07

By Alan Levin, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Delays last year in the nation's aviation system delivered a staggering blow to the economy, costing passengers, airlines and related businesses $41 billion, according to a congressional study released Thursday.

"With delays going through the roof and the economy squishy soft, delays' impact on the economy is very severe," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., chairman of Congress' Joint Economic Committee, which released the report.

Schumer called the impact on passengers and the overall economy a "$41 billion punch in the gut."

The Memorial Day weekend marks the start of the peak season for flight delays as vacation travel ramps up and thunderstorms, one of the leading causes of delays, begin striking the country. Last summer, flight delays were the worst on record, particularly in New York's three airports.

Last year's gridlock prompted airlines and the government to take numerous steps to ease congestion. The Department of Transportation limited flights into New York's airports to stem some delays, and the Federal Aviation Administration has opened new routes to allow for more flights.


http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...05-22-travel-delays-billions_N.htm

Unfortunately, merely limiting frequencies won't achieve desired results (obviously, the article is dated and things are still in the crapper). You want to limit air movements but not the volume of passengers, and these restrictions don't do much about addressing the latter.

It's high time to deregulate airport charges. Keeping price controls in places won't allow the market to reach equilibrium. What's happening is no surprise.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: TristarSteve
Posted 2009-03-31 21:50:24 and read 5494 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
You want to limit air movements but not the volume of passengers

Easy. Start charging per movement, so you pay the same fees for a 50 seat Commutor as a Widebody. Airlines would soon see the sense of operating wide bodies again.
Or allow slot trading. Noone will buy a slot for a 50 seater if it costs so much there is no economic return.
Divert all the Saab 340s into a commutor airport and free up the big three for long haul.

And yes it has been happening for years.
Back in 1988 I used to meet a TWA Tristar from JFK every morning. It arrived at 0800, except on Christmas Day when it arrived at 0650. "We taxied out and took off with no delay", said the Capt," Sorry we were so early!"

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Osiris30
Posted 2009-03-31 22:07:07 and read 5453 times.



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 48):
Easy. Start charging per movement, so you pay the same fees for a 50 seat Commutor as a Widebody.

Ahh but then you get John Q Public complaining to his Senator because his piss-ant airport doesn't have 9x daily service to JFK anymore.

I don't disagree with what your proposing, but politics are the problem with it. I'm *sure* some airlines would love a flat fee approach.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Dc863
Posted 2009-03-31 22:09:16 and read 5458 times.

Any of the older Anetters recall the story about the Eastern DC--9 Captain who taxied his plane back to the gate from the taxiway after several hours delay? This happened in the mid 80s. I remember when the story broke, now those lengthy delays are so common place.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2009-03-31 22:53:28 and read 5373 times.



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 46):
Mir: No really, it's *not* that difficult. You can handle x movements a minute. Average taxi time (assuming no stopages) is y from gate to runway. Once you build up a taxi-queue 5-10 minutes deep you hold all flights at the gate, and ripple all the timing from there. You can mathematically work it all out. FedEX and UPS can move *millions* of parcels a day around the whole world and we can't move 500 aircraft around an airport??

So once your plane leaves the gate... and then comes back because of the delay, where's that next inbound plane that is scheduled to be using your gate supposed to go? There may not be another gate. Are THEY supposed to wait now? FedEx and UPS can do it because they are COMPLETELY different, they don't even need a GATE!

Pax think it's all so simple, that everything can just be fixed by doing "xyz" but the truth is they have no idea of the complexities of the operation. Most pax are egocentric in that they're only thinking of the flight they're on (which I understand) but if you're thinking you're going to "solve" the problem then you have to think beyond your flight to the other 400 flights occurring at the given airport.

I'd love to see, just for a day, how things would run if the "know-it-alls" were in charge... the plane would never leave the gate because people would still be fighting over who gets to board first.

People act as if every week they're stuck on the tarmac for 3 hrs... I avg 4 legs/day 4 days/week which is more than a LOT of people and delays for me are rare, especially lengthly delays.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2009-04-01 03:37:58 and read 5225 times.



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 48):
Easy. Start charging per movement, so you pay the same fees for a 50 seat Commutor as a Widebody. Airlines would soon see the sense of operating wide bodies again.

Exactly my point. There was a discussion here recently about why we don't see widebodies on the US domestic routes anymore (almost none).

Everyone pointed to me how frequency is the only thing that matters and that for an airline it is now better to fly 15 CJs or EMBs a day, than 2-3 widebodies on the same route.

I really can't understand why anyone would prefer flying JFK-LAX or BOS-SFO crammed in a B737 or an A320 instead of a B744 or a B777, but then I'm from Europe, not the US...

But if you want all the little buggers flying around departing every 2 minutes, then getting stuck on the taxiway for hours shouldn't surprise anyone. However, this for me beats the purpose of having as many departures, as at the end you will still get there late.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have, say, 3 departures per day that will actually depart and arrive on time, most of the time?

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2009-04-01 03:50:46 and read 5213 times.

This example clearly shows that the concept of small planes high frequency has filed. The only solution is larger planes, lower frequency and code sharing. There is no reason NYC air space accepts any planes below A320/B738 size.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-04-01 05:33:22 and read 5112 times.



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 46):
You can handle x movements a minute. Average taxi time (assuming no stopages) is y from gate to runway. Once you build up a taxi-queue 5-10 minutes deep you hold all flights at the gate, and ripple all the timing from there. You can mathematically work it all out.

Now tell me where all the arrivals are going to go when the gates are full of planes who are getting delayed.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 46):
FedEX and UPS can move *millions* of parcels a day around the whole world and we can't move 500 aircraft around an airport??

Two completely different scenarios, with completely different challenges. I doubt FedEx or UPS could do any better than ATC does when the weather goes south.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Osiris30
Posted 2009-04-01 05:53:06 and read 5094 times.



Quoting WNCrew (Reply 51):
So once your plane leaves the gate... and then comes back because of the delay, where's that next inbound plane that is scheduled to be using your gate supposed to go? There may not be another gate. Are THEY supposed to wait now? FedEx and UPS can do it because they are COMPLETELY different, they don't even need a GATE!

It's called capacity planning. You face the exact same problem right now, except now the planes are made to sit on the taxiway to solve it. Instead if you get really jammed up (and you have too many birds in the air that need gates) you haul the delay departing plane off the gate, deplane the inbound, and tug the departing plane back onto the gate. Otherwise you hold at the point of departure just like a ground stop does today.

I never said everything would be perfect, and I admit there will be exceptions, but the log jam at some major US airports is just out of control.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of the post, as I can't bend my neck enough to talk to you on your high-horse.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):
Now tell me where all the arrivals are going to go when the gates are full of planes who are getting delayed.

See above. If you haven't started boarding a flight you can pull it off a gate to deplane an inbound flight for a few minutes. If the long delays are so rare as some state on here, it should be a rare occurrence. The only thing AC need to be on the gate for is planing/deplaning. Everything else doesn't *need* to be done on a gate. Now there are obviously airports where there isn't enough room on the ground to do this, but longterm concrete is cheap.

And when the weather goes *really* south, you still have AC that can't get a gate today, so I don't see how this is any worse of a solution.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):
Two completely different scenarios, with completely different challenges. I doubt FedEx or UPS could do any better than ATC does when the weather goes south.

It's logistics and as long as folks throw their hands in the air and say "it's the best we can do", it will stay the way it is.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Oa260
Posted 2009-04-01 06:02:31 and read 5073 times.



Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
and they had been sitting in the taxi-way for several hours waiting for a takeoff slot.

It said ''an hours delay'' . Was it one hour or 7 hours??

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-04-01 08:03:54 and read 4960 times.



Quoting Oa260 (Reply 56):
It said ''an hours delay'' . Was it one hour or 7 hours??

Article says more than two and a half hours.

The flight then returned to the gate and was cancelled, stranding the 146 passengers.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 55):
Instead if you get really jammed up (and you have too many birds in the air that need gates) you haul the delay departing plane off the gate, deplane the inbound, and tug the departing plane back onto the gate.

I'm sure the words "ladies and gentlemen, the storms have moved enough to let us depart, but unfortunately, our airplane was towed off the gate and is currently sitting at a remote stand, so we're going to be delayed another couple of hours while we wait for it to come back and then wait for the departure line to drain down" would go over very well.  Yeah sure

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 55):
It's logistics and as long as folks throw their hands in the air and say "it's the best we can do", it will stay the way it is.

I believe you're under the impression that people aren't trying to do this better. That's not the case. But the problem is more complex than I think you realize, and apart from forcing the airports to operate very inefficiently in good weather, there is no magic bullet.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-04-01 08:12:43 and read 4957 times.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 48):
Start charging per movement, so you pay the same fees for a 50 seat Commutor as a Widebody. Airlines would soon see the sense of operating wide bodies again.

                 


Fixing this is so straight-forward it's ridiculous. But as Osires30 said, politics won't let it be done.

[Edited 2009-04-01 08:16:30]

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: IAirAllie
Posted 2009-04-01 10:04:03 and read 4862 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 57):
Article says more than two and a half hours.

The flight then returned to the gate and was cancelled, stranding the 146 passengers.

Damned if you do damned if you don't. The crew probably timed out once they pulled back to the gate. That is probably why they didn't return to the gate in the first place as they didn't want to have to cancel a flight that could have eventually gone unecessarily "stranding 146 passengers".

People don't seem to get that the alternative to pushing back and waiting isn't waiting at the gate area and going it is usually a cancellation. The crew cannot time out when pushed back they can when at the gate area.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 55):
If you haven't started boarding a flight you can pull it off a gate to deplane an inbound flight for a few minutes.

Sure that takes mere minutes. lickety split. It isn't cost prohibitive at all to have extra ground equipment and staff lounging about to do this. It doesn't take time at all to taxi an aircraft out to an area where it won't impede other traffic, sure. Brilliant idea!

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 55):
longterm concrete is cheap.

Really? Do you have any idea what goes into airport expansion and planning. Hmm we need more parking space lets just pave over that area over there. It's not even that easy to put in a patio in many neighborhoods. It is very pricey to cover all the legal work and to do all the necessary lobbying, environmental impact surveys and pr campaigning necessary to even start a construction project.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 55):
Otherwise you hold at the point of departure just like a ground stop does today.

This sounded sure sounded like a departure delay to me. Passengers don't like any kind of delay they don't care if it is a departure or an arrival delay. So how exactly is this an improvement over the current system?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...05-22-travel-delays-billions_N.htm

I'm curious to know how much money increased frequency adds to the economy. I'm willing to bet it far overshadows the amount lost in delays.

Decreasing frequency with larger aircraft is not going to reduce the traffic at peak/bank periods (the times where the bottle necks currently occur). Less frequency means less point to point service necessitating more connections. In order to make viable connections you have to schedule arrivals and departures in banks. This causes congestion bottlenecks.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-04-01 10:31:28 and read 4810 times.



Quoting WNCrew (Reply 51):
People act as if every week they're stuck on the tarmac for 3 hrs... I avg 4 legs/day 4 days/week which is more than a LOT of people and delays for me are rare, especially lengthly delays.

While I don't fly to NYC every week, I do every month or so and I've found that there's only ONE flight that seems to get me there on time consistently from MIA: AA 1540

Those times that I'm not able to get on AA 1540 and have to fly into LGA or God forbid, EWR, unless I'm on a 7am flight out of MIA, I will be delayed on the ground in MIA due to "congestion" in the NYC airspace.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):
Now tell me where all the arrivals are going to go when the gates are full of planes who are getting delayed.



Quoting Mir (Reply 57):
I believe you're under the impression that people aren't trying to do this better. That's not the case. But the problem is more complex than I think you realize, and apart from forcing the airports to operate very inefficiently in good weather, there is no magic bullet.

But "good weather" is such a relative term when talking about the NYC airports. Cloudy skies at EWR? Traffic Management Program gets activated. Light to moderate rain in the area? Traffic Management Program gets activated. Sunny skies with winds over 15 kts? Traffic Management Program gets activated.

I've read all your replies about what won't work.... what do you think WOULD work?

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 59):
Decreasing frequency with larger aircraft is not going to reduce the traffic at peak/bank periods (the times where the bottle necks currently occur). Less frequency means less point to point service necessitating more connections. In order to make viable connections you have to schedule arrivals and departures in banks. This causes congestion bottlenecks.

Same question for you as for Mir.... what do you think WOULD work to eliminate this issue of keeping pax on the plane for at least an hour parked at some remote area of the airport awaiting their revised departure slot?

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-04-01 12:30:27 and read 4722 times.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 59):
I'm curious to know how much money increased frequency adds to the economy. I'm willing to bet it far overshadows the amount lost in delays.

Nope, from the article I posted:

Quote:
Delays cost the airlines $19.1 billion in increased operating costs. That represents far more than the $3.8 billion the airline industry earned in profits last year, according to the Air Transport Association, which represents large carriers.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 59):
Decreasing frequency with larger aircraft is not going to reduce the traffic at peak/bank periods (the times where the bottle necks currently occur). Less frequency means less point to point service necessitating more connections. In order to make viable connections you have to schedule arrivals and departures in banks. This causes congestion bottlenecks.

It can if we have a variable price landing fee system that goes up with traffic. As for connections, it will decrease during peak hours. But this decrease will add to efficiency not take away from it. Point to point might also increase since connecting through NYC all of a sudden will cost much more.

[Edited 2009-04-01 12:36:15]

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Robsaw
Posted 2009-04-01 12:52:30 and read 4671 times.

There is right/wrong and in-between.

Somewhere between 1 or 2 hours and 7 or 8 or more hours there is a point where people on the plane are no longer passengers but are the unlawfully confined. Where is that point exactly? Well, I guess only regulation will supply the answer since it is a matter of opinion and personal tolerance. Unless you accept that unlimited waiting (how about 12, 18, 3 days?) is acceptable there is a threshold at which the entire plane will rebel.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-04-01 13:00:40 and read 4645 times.

Quoting Robsaw (Reply 62):

The time probably varies from situation to situation. But I agree, after some point, it becomes involuntary confinement or imprisonment. The airline needs to return to the gate and let people out. The airport needs to make provisions for that or they, instead of the airline, need to be held accountable.

[Edited 2009-04-01 13:06:54]

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Gabrielz
Posted 2009-04-01 13:13:56 and read 4624 times.

We don't have all the details, but I'm of the opinion that the prosecutor will have difficulty convicting if the pax is reasonably sane, the delay was 3 hours, and his lawyers get a jury trial.

Passengers should firmly tell the crew what their limit for being held on the tarmac is and insist the pilot return to the gate at that time. Opening the door is a last-resort strategy, and with sufficient clarity, most pilots will return for you.

-G

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Jfernandez
Posted 2009-04-01 13:31:17 and read 4600 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
This "sit on the plane forever" phenomenon is relatively recent.

I still remember sitting on the Delta shuttle BOS-LGA sometime in the late 80's or early 90's where we spent 6 1/2 hours on the ground at BOS stuck in the plane. I vividly recall that experience mostly as it was the single reason that stopped my parents from flying.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: OA260
Posted 2009-04-01 14:14:11 and read 4532 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 57):
Article says more than two and a half hours.

I think there should be a max of two hours before the A/C must return to the gate and passengers who want off should have the legal right to disembark.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: IAirAllie
Posted 2009-04-01 15:21:04 and read 4464 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 61):
Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 59):
I'm curious to know how much money increased frequency adds to the economy. I'm willing to bet it far overshadows the amount lost in delays.

Nope, from the article I posted:

Quote:
Delays cost the airlines $19.1 billion in increased operating costs. That represents far more than the $3.8 billion the airline industry earned in profits last year, according to the Air Transport Association, which represents large carriers.

Yeah, um... that has nothing to do with the point I was making. I am not talking about airline industry revenue but the economic value derived from increasing frequency thus increasing the flexibility and efficiency of travel for American businesses. The article makes a claim about the cost of delays on the economy. It does not weigh that cost against the benefits derived from higher frequency lower capacity flights.

If you want to debate the above quote on it's own merits we can go there...

It is not as straightforward as the quote would lead us to believe. Fact: delays cost the airlines $19.1 billion. Fact: airlines made $3.8 billion in profits last year. For the sake of argument lets say you are correct that cutting frequency would reduce delays (a debatable supposition IMHO). If we accept that be truth it would then follow that a reduction in delays would lead to a reduction in financial loss to the airlines due to delays. Would that reduction in financial loss then automatically contribute to the industry bottom line? NO, because there are other factors at play. The consumer, particularly the high revenue consumer, has made it clear that frequency is a desirable feature in their travel product. They are willing to pay a premium to travel when they want to increase their productivity and QOL. The cost of an increase in frequency is the occasional congestion related delay. The airlines have determined the costs associated with such delays are outweighed by the benefit of revenue gained by courting premium fares with scheduling flexibility. So, while the article tries to directly link facts 1 & 2 that premise is not borne out by logic.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 61):
Point to point might also increase since connecting through NYC all of a sudden will cost much more.

NYC is a huge O&D market PTP linking non-NYC airports is unlikely to change much should NYC cut capacity. Your theory might be more accurately applied to hubs with less O&D traffic. PTP service is not an efficient use of resources for most airline models and would cause fare increases. SWA is one of the few airlines to find niche success with a PTP operation even then their operation is really a PTP/hub hybrid.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 60):

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 59):

Same question for you as for Mir.... what do you think WOULD work to eliminate this issue of keeping pax on the plane for at least an hour parked at some remote area of the airport awaiting their revised departure slot?

I wrote my undergraduate thesis on Air Travel Delays so I spent considerable time analyzing this information. Remember you asked for it so don't blame me when you fall asleep out of boredom or get angry and flag this off topic...

I know you don't want to hear it but I think the current system is the best system. Yes, there is room for improvement and those improvements are being made. Airlines invest a lot in delay analysis and on-time performance improvement (ask any gate agent how seriously this is taken by their supervisor). Extreme onboard delays exceeding 2 hours are quite rare when put into perspective. The circumstances surrounding such delays are usually extraordinary and outside of airline control. With infinite resources financial, labor, physical space and equipment we could pretty much eradicate extreme onboard delays. However, our resources are not infinite and there is only so much passengers are willing to pay for the commodity of air travel. Additionally, this would not eliminate the delays all together it would merely shift the passengers from being onboard the aircraft to inside the terminal.

What can be done to improve...

Airlines can strive harder to address passenger comfort issues through training, catering a stash of delay snacks (AA used to), provisioning supplementary IFE material for delays (AA used to), improving communication flow and public awareness, and by allowing passengers to freely move/utilize the facilities when safe to do so.

Airlines, airports, aircraft manufacturers and government aviation agencies can work together to improve air traffic efficiency through the use of emerging technologies. Much of our airspace goes unused. Bottlenecks at certain points currently negatively impact the entire system. Current aircraft separation distances can safely be reduced using newly available onboard equipment.

Airlines can utilize delay management techniques like pre-cancellation when a major weather event is expected. Not the most popular with many pax but this has been demonstrated to improve event recovery time to 24 hrs vs. several days with out proactive steps.

Airlines can de-peak their schedules AA did so resulting in average traveler impact of only a 20 minute difference in travel time. Airports can offer incentives to do so.

Demand pricing may be an option at a very select number of airports. I do not think this is a solution that should be applied to every market. It is not a favorite of mine.

I could go on but this is long enough to demonstrate I am not just here to knock down well intentioned but uneducated suggestions from armchair CEO's.

Quoting Gabrielz (Reply 64):
with sufficient clarity, most pilots will return for you.

This is often true I've certainly worked a flight where we've done this. However, there are factors outside of a pilots control which would prevent this from being possible except under emergency conditions.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-04-01 15:50:13 and read 4416 times.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 67):
Remember you asked for it so don't blame me when you fall asleep out of boredom or get angry and flag this off topic...

I didn't fall asleep reading it at all.  Smile

But under your "What can be done" list, it doesn't really seem like there's much that can be done that would significantly reduce the number of times pax have to sit on the plane at some remote location at their departing airport to wait for their ATC slot.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2009-04-01 16:27:40 and read 4365 times.

After reading all the post's on this thread, I can't believe there isn't a system in place to allow passengers to disembark the plane, after a period of time, (say 45 mins) and be taken to some special "sterile holding area" while the delay, what ever it is, is sorted out. That way passengers could access refreshments, telephones, internet etc to inform others who might be waiting for them at the destination of the delay. Some post's have indicated delays in excess of several hours, this is totally unacceptable to be kept hold up on an airplane whilst still on the ground, whatever the reason is !!

I would have thought this was only common courtesy to the travelling public and good PR for the airlines, keeps everyone happy especially when delays are becoming so frequent at some airports .

Its a no brainer really in my opinion.

Also, why when slots are not available or there is a backlog of other aircraft waiting to takeoff do airlines board passengers then, why not simply wait until one is available and then board ?

TheCommodore

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-04-01 16:27:53 and read 4366 times.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 67):
I am not talking about airline industry revenue but the economic value derived from increasing frequency thus increasing the flexibility and efficiency of travel for American businesses. The article makes a claim about the cost of delays on the economy. It does not weigh that cost against the benefits derived from higher frequency lower capacity flights.

There's no efficiency in air travel right now. I doubt there would be a big impact on efficiency as far as frequencies go if Delta would to cut ATL-DC from 40 daily flights to 20 daily flights.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 67):
Would that reduction in financial loss then automatically contribute to the industry bottom line? NO, because there are other factors at play.

You're right, not necessarily, though I think some of it would. A chunk of it would also stay with the airport since it is charging you more to land there. The difference is that instead of literally burning $41bi on the tarmac waiting for take-off, a complete waste of capital, human, and natural resources, this time you pay more to fly out on time, and the airport actually gets to use that money that would otherwise been wasted for something else.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 67):
The consumer, particularly the high revenue consumer, has made it clear that frequency is a desirable feature in their travel product. They are willing to pay a premium to travel when they want to increase their productivity and QOL. The cost of an increase in frequency is the occasional congestion related delay. The airlines have determined the costs associated with such delays are outweighed by the benefit of revenue gained by courting premium fares with scheduling flexibility.


Sitting an hour at the tarmac kinda destroys the point of higher frequencies. You might as well sit in the terminal.

[Edited 2009-04-01 16:40:37]

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2009-04-01 16:28:49 and read 4368 times.



Quoting N62NA (Reply 68):
it doesn't really seem like there's much that can be done that would significantly reduce the number of times pax have to sit on the plane at some remote location at their departing airport to wait for their ATC slot.

Well, unless crew rest and duty regs change or unless ticket prices go up enough to not only keep the airlines profitable but also to pay for more resources, then I don't see how much can change beyond just the improvements IAirAllie mentioned:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 68):
Airlines can strive harder to address passenger comfort issues ....and by allowing passengers to freely move/utilize the facilities when safe to do so.

Airlines, airports, aircraft manufacturers and government aviation agencies can work together to improve air traffic efficiency through the use of emerging technologies.....

Airlines can utilize delay management techniques like pre-cancellation when a major weather event is expected. ....

Airlines can de-peak their schedules ...

All that being said, still a lot would have to change to completely alleviate these remote chances of people being stuck for hours on end away form the terminal and again, it's really not that common when you look at the sheer numbers of daily flights that ARE completed without issue.

Maybe one plane could be scheduled per gat per hour... but that's not very efficient and doesn't allow for much frequency (although it does allow the plane a place to go back or to stay parked).... but keep in mind then you'd also have to staff a "ready" ground crew to be available that entire time to handle the aircraft, and agents to stay at the counters and drive the jetbridge. You couldn't just pull these people from other areas because they're likely already working to get a another flight out on time. Staffing ALONE has been cut so much that this scenario seems highly unlikely.

Also as IAirAllie stated, much of the frequency was a matter of "what the customer wanted" and so it's offered... but the more planes you have in the same space the less room you have for error.

Delays cost airlines money, and business. To think they genuinely don't care or don't know what it's like it really ridiculous because (at least wt WN) we have to fill out IROP reports anytime we have extended ground delays away from the gate, diversions and a plethora of other things. They KNOW what's going on in those cabins and what's being done by the crew... not to mention any letters or calls they may take from pax regarding the same delay, and once off the gate, we're not just under control of the airline, we're also dealing with the airport authority, other airlines... and so on...

Given the current state of the industry, it's unrealistic to assume the airlines just don't care. While they may not express it as they should, it affects their bottom line (as Allie shows us above) so you know they care. It's just that the solutions a lot of people propose (who don't have the exposure to really understand all of the complexities of the operation) aren't realistic, so while it may seem like we're putting all suggestions down, we're really just trying to express why certain things aren't possible currently and WHY they're not possible... or maybe a better words is realistic. Passengers have to realize too that any changes that are made, will undoubtedly affect another part of the travel experience, be it how much tickets cost, how many frequencies are offered, what types of planes are in service etc.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-04-01 16:38:41 and read 4337 times.

My internet was crapping out so I have to do this in two posts.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 67):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 61):
Point to point might also increase since connecting through NYC all of a sudden will cost much more.

NYC is a huge O&D market PTP linking non-NYC airports is unlikely to change much should NYC cut capacity.

Some PTP might develop bypassing NYC, but I agree that new ones might be few. On the other hand, sending connecting pax through some other hub that is less busy should help reduce congestion as well. Or at least reduce the number of planes coming in as many will choose to fly through other hubs.

[Edited 2009-04-01 16:52:38]

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-04-01 16:52:08 and read 4303 times.



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 59):
Damned if you do damned if you don't. The crew probably timed out once they pulled back to the gate.

Entirely possible.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 60):
But "good weather" is such a relative term when talking about the NYC airports. Cloudy skies at EWR? Traffic Management Program gets activated. Light to moderate rain in the area? Traffic Management Program gets activated. Sunny skies with winds over 15 kts? Traffic Management Program gets activated.

Those affect arrivals, certainly, but they tend not to affect departures (except for flights delayed due to the aircraft arriving late - once the plane pushes back, the delays generally aren't too significant). What keeps planes sitting on the ground for long periods of time are the strong storms that shut down lots of departure routes. And those don't happen all that often.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 68):
But under your "What can be done" list, it doesn't really seem like there's much that can be done that would significantly reduce the number of times pax have to sit on the plane at some remote location at their departing airport to wait for their ATC slot.

No, there really isn't. Get better at forecasting weather, I guess. Or build more runways, but there are so many legal complications associated with that. But to be honest, sitting on the taxiway waiting to get a slot to go to NYC isn't something that should happen that often. If general delays are put out, then the airline can keep the airplane at the gate and not board until the departure time is nearing (I've seen it happen - I've also seen an airplane almost miss an updated departure time because of it, so it's not always a good thing to do). But that's when the weather is predictable - ATC is in the business of not delaying flights any more than they have to, so sometimes it's best to have them ready to go at five minute's notice should the weather start to change for the better. That's when you have ground stops, and there really isn't anything to do besides wait on the taxiways to see if the stop lifts or not.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-04-01 16:52:49 and read 4305 times.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 72):
JFK, LGA, EWR need to first and foremost serve the people of NYC and those visiting the city.

And if that actually happened, I bet EWR would go back to being a near ghost-town again (slight exaggeration).

Does anyone know what % of trips taken by people out of EWR are O&D and what % of pax are connecting to another flight?

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2009-04-01 17:10:32 and read 4284 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 74):

Part of that reason I removed that quote from my post. The point here is to reduce frequencies, not necessarily connections.

[Edited 2009-04-01 17:12:20]

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Alias1024
Posted 2009-04-01 19:22:26 and read 4203 times.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 66):
I think there should be a max of two hours before the A/C must return to the gate and passengers who want off should have the legal right to disembark.

So I'm sitting second in line for takeoff after having my wheels up time pushed back 3 times at the two hour mark. It will be another 3 minutes until we are wheels up and you think we should be legally forced to return to the gate?

This is the problem with setting a hard rule about when the aircraft must return to the gate.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Ncfc99
Posted 2009-04-02 00:58:16 and read 4041 times.

What are the arguments against slot controling the NYC airports that are stopping it from happening? The airlines would save money by not having to burn 2-3 hours worth of fuel to get to the front of the que. They could use bigger aircraft so the amount of available seat can be th same, which would not dilute yeilds. Frequency produces higher yeild, but if the frequencys are limited, the people who want to fly will have to fly on a flight that is available. They wont stay at home and just whine about it. Surely if yeild is diluted a bit, fuel cost, crew times, aircraft usage costs would decrease aswell. Airlines only have themselves to blame if they schedule too many flights into an airport in too limited time frame. If someone who knows more than me (and its not that hard) can explain or correct me, I am all ears.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Irishmd11
Posted 2009-04-02 12:42:16 and read 3851 times.



Quoting Acabgd (Reply 43):
Hey, "freak snowfall" is something only a blind guy could not see out of his window. There's really not much an airline can do at that point.

As far as I understand, there was no "freak weather" around NYC area at the time this happened, it was simply "a delay".



Quoting Acabgd (Reply 43):
Hey, "freak snowfall" is something only a blind guy could not see out of his window. There's really not much an airline can do at that point.

As far as I understand, there was no "freak weather" around NYC area at the time this happened, it was simply "a delay".

Dear aviation friend,

The "freak" snowfall had started some time before I arrived at DUB for check-in.

The authorities asked us to board our A320 to GVA ( a KLM 737) stayed some time away from the terminal building after pushback, and I guess that he was the last to leave for one hell of a while...

Within some 10 minutes after buckling my seatbelt, I was informed of a "delay"...

It is clear that you did not correctly read the details of my post, I was at DUB and not at any airport in the NYC area on that day...

Is mise,

Gerry.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2009-04-02 13:20:08 and read 3800 times.



Quoting WNCrew (Reply 41):
Because that gate is already being utilized by another aircraft and so on and so forth...

There is always a gate open, it does not have to be the one that the aircraft itself departed from.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 42):
It isn't that simple.

Never said it was.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 42):
It would be that simple if there were no more than one aircraft per gate, all gates and all equipment were universal (ie worked with all aircraft types), you had unlimited amounts of ground staff on hand, you had unlimited amounts of ground equipment on hand, if the weather conditions causing the delay were never unsafe to ground staff (they cannot work in lightning), if you didn't have to worry about loosing a slot, if you didn't have to consider crew duty regs. and timing out with a gate return, if you could re-board instantaneously when a small window of opportunity opens up instead of spending long periods of time rounding up stray passengers.

That is why airlines have to have a plan B in case these things happen. It should be a law if a slot is missed, the plane must return to either an open gate or a tarmac with a stand. Those pax can be bussed back to the terminal. It is the airline's responsibility to make sure that the safety of the pax is not compromised.

We do not want to see another AA (Or was it B6?) incident that occured at JFK a few years ago that nearly turned into a brawl, and officers had to board the plane to keep the peace.

I hope THIS will never happen at my airline.....

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2009-04-02 13:40:46 and read 3771 times.



Quoting Irishmd11 (Reply 78):
It is clear that you did not correctly read the details of my post, I was at DUB and not at any airport in the NYC area on that day...

I mentioned NYC as this topic covers the delay in NYC, actually JFK. I understand very well you were talking about your experience in DUB with a "freak snowfall".

As mentioned in the previous post, the incident in NYC didn't include any adverse weather which might justify stting in an airplane on tarmac for more than two hours.

Topic: RE: Man Fed Up With Delay: Tries To Leave Plane
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-04-02 14:58:13 and read 3720 times.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 79):
There is always a gate open, it does not have to be the one that the aircraft itself departed from.

Sometimes, at JFK, there isn't. Several of the terminals have aircraft sitting on all the gates during rush hour. DL and B6 were notorious for this problem - B6's new terminal has fixed that, but DL still has issues with finding enough gates for their flights. Terminal 1 is also one that has very little space left.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 79):
It should be a law if a slot is missed, the plane must return to either an open gate or a tarmac with a stand.

Missed slots generally don't cause airplanes to sit out on the taxiways. Waiting for one does. Like Alias1024 said above: if you've been waiting to takeoff for three hours, but you're now #3, and the line is moving, do you go back to the gate? What if departures are stopped when you get to be #1? Do you go back to the gate and lose your place in line, incurring another long delay when you finally are able to go? Or do you wait it out, knowing that when a hole in the weather opens up, you will be the first to go? These aren't easy black/white decisions.

Making laws with time limits that airlines must abide by would be one way to solve this. But it would have costs, and eventually those costs would be passed down to the passengers. So the question is: is the public willing to pay for what they want?

-Mir


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