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Topic: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: Veeseeten
Posted 2009-04-15 03:26:37 and read 4843 times.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7999718.stm

Seems they won't be replacing outgoing staff! Someone else has done this recently, but I can't recall who. Either way, looks like this is catching on!

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-15 04:57:30 and read 4661 times.

I am not surprise. I in fact I started to question the whole AF/KL business model. In additon, try to factor in the way AF/KL group treats their frequent flyers and you have an ingredient for failure. I do not think the current economic crisis is the sole factor to blame AF/KL deteriorating results. It is a combination of factors, from outdated product to FF program problems.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2009-04-15 04:59:15 and read 4661 times.



Quoting Veeseeten (Thread starter):
Seems they won't be replacing outgoing staff

Nothing very new here ... It was already announced a few weeks ago.
In 2008 already, 2500 outgoing staff were not replaced

Quoting Veeseeten (Thread starter):
Someone else has done this recently

Considering the current situation, the list of "who did not do it" is probably easier to get !

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: Veeseeten
Posted 2009-04-15 05:53:13 and read 4551 times.

Fair comment - to be honest, I'm pretty sure I was thinking of AF/KL anyway!

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: AFKL
Posted 2009-04-15 06:03:04 and read 4488 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
Nothing very new here ... It was already announced a few weeks ago.

However, on the Dutch news (RTL Z) they have reported that they will cut an ADDITIONAL 3000 jobs, on top of those previously announced.

Quite serious.


ALLARD.

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2009-04-15 06:06:28 and read 4470 times.

When will these companies DL/AF/LH/BA realize that bigger isn't always better?

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: KLMCedric
Posted 2009-04-15 06:33:15 and read 4419 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 1):
It is a combination of factors, from outdated product to FF program problems.

IMHO you overestimate the impact of these factors, and heavily understimate the current
conditions under which airlines have to try and keep their heads above water.

The drop in pax numbers is perfectly comparable between all major European players
right now, and that's because of one reason only, because the rest of the world businesses are
also in very dire straits, and don't send their personnel flying anymore, and if they do,
certainly not in premium travelclasses. That's all there's to it.

As to the decline in FF-program quality, which I don't deny, I think you will have to accept
that KLM caters to a different type of business traveler then BA,LH,AF, because of the very
low amount of O&D pax at their home base, and the consequent yields this fact generates.

I could not tell for AF though, as I haven't studied their case.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that some things are in need of improvement, and I really
hope they will in the future, but the general attitude at Flyer-Talk is extremely bad. It's just
a concentration of black humour and sarcasm, and endless attempts to find original
comments to drive KLM, and everything it stands for into the ground. Sometimes it almost
seems like a contest to me, and it's been going on since well before the crisis, and the
changes the FB. IMO it's difficult to grant a lot of credibilty to this forum,
the more so because it's absolutely not in line with the opinions I receive onboard following
regular chats with our plats and golds.
Reading Flyertalk I'd say the ratio of complaint vs compliment is 90-10.
My own hands-on experience says this ratio is about 30-70. Something is wrong here!

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: Seemyseems
Posted 2009-04-15 06:59:26 and read 4349 times.

I reckon the problem is, they both serve routes which really don't need them!

How was KL doing before the AF merger?

I guess this will put the whole OK take over on hold too.

[Edited 2009-04-15 07:02:37]

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: Runway23
Posted 2009-04-15 07:46:51 and read 4233 times.



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 6):
Don't get me wrong, I understand that some things are in need of improvement, and I really
hope they will in the future, but the general attitude at Flyer-Talk is extremely bad. It's just
a concentration of black humour and sarcasm, and endless attempts to find original
comments to drive KLM, and everything it stands for into the ground. Sometimes it almost
seems like a contest to me, and it's been going on since well before the crisis, and the
changes the FB. IMO it's difficult to grant a lot of credibilty to this forum,
the more so because it's absolutely not in line with the opinions I receive onboard following
regular chats with our plats and golds.
Reading Flyertalk I'd say the ratio of complaint vs compliment is 90-10.
My own hands-on experience says this ratio is about 30-70. Something is wrong here!

I'm not quite sure you realise the extent of the changes on people. I myself know a very significant number of people and (subsequent companies with their decision makers) who have moved away from AF/KL.

I'd say this move was the camel's back. AFKL are showing the middle finger to all passengers (regardless of status or cabin flown) whilst other airlines (eg. BA) are genuinely taking interest in keeping their customers at all cost.

AFKL seem to be too much into the short term and not enough into the long term. Problem is once you've lost a customer they most likely won't come back and if they do it will typically end up costing a company 8 times more than it would have to have kept its customers.

But I'm sure AFKL won't publically admit that a move has failed (although knowing them it will take them a significant amount of time to realise this).

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2009-04-15 08:20:08 and read 4148 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 1):
I do not think the current economic crisis is the sole factor to blame AF/KL deteriorating results.

Come on ! be serious just a minute :

- In March 2009, Lufthansa Group recorded a plunge of -5% in RPK traffic, while ASK capacity was up by 0.6% (with a distortion in year on year comparison due to the late Easter holiday), leading to a -4.4 pts decline in load factor to 75% (Europe: -3.9 pts, Americas: -5.4 pts, Asia-Pacific: -3.2 pts, Middle East & Africa: -4.4 pts). Reduction in traffic came from both Lufthansa Passenger Airlines (ASK: -0.2% / RPK: -5.1% / LF: -3.9 pts to 75.2% / Pax: -2.3%) and Swiss (ASK: 4.1% / RPK: -4.5% / LF: -6.7 pts to 74.4% / Pax: -4.7%),
Slump in demand for airfreight (Lufthansa Cargo traffic : -19.9%) remained in line with the previous month, for capacity again reduced (-4.7%).

- In March 2009, SAS Group's RPK traffic decreased by -16.9%, while ASK capacity was down -3.9% year-on-year. The load factor plunged by -10.2 pts to 64.5%, while the Group carried 2.2 Mpax (down -9.9%).

- In March 2009, British Airways' RPK traffic decreased by -7.3%, while global ASK capacity was increased by 0.9%, leading to a drop in load factor (-6.4 pt to 72.7%). These data show the continued weakness in demand, particularly affecting Premium traffic (Premium RPK -13%, non-Premium RPK -6%). BA says the March figures are affected by the Easter holiday's falling in April this year rather than a month earlier in 2008; the effect was to increase premium and reduce non-premium volumes. Cargo traffic also dropped -10%.

- IATA is projecting a global airline industry loss of $4.7 billion for 2009, a near-doubling of the $2.5 billion loss it forecast in December. Collective revenue is expected to decrease -12% year-over-year to $467 billion. IATA expects passenger traffic to fall by -5.7% (iso -3% projected in Dec), with premium traffic dropping more sharply, while cargo demand will be down by -13% (iso -5% projected in Dec). Yields will fall by -4.3%.
IATA said Asia/Pacific carriers "continue to be hardest hit by the current economic turmoil" and projected losses of $1.7 billion for the region's airlines in 2009 (up from a $1.1 billion loss predicted in Dec). Europe's airlines are projected to lose $1 billion in 2009; IATA added that Latin American and African carriers both will post an annual loss of $600 million while Middle East airlines will lose $900 million

And I could continue ...

Saying that the recent changes in the Flying Blue FFP has a financial impact on AFKL is simplistic and irrational.

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: BillReid
Posted 2009-04-15 20:06:47 and read 3835 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 9):
Saying that the recent changes in the Flying Blue FFP has a financial impact on AFKL is simplistic and irrational.

Whilst I agree that the times are dreadful your statement is based upon some false premises.
First, does the quality have to dip because of bad times?
Second, should all airlines fare badly or can there be product differentiation?
Third, if less people are flying why not work harder for the premium pax business.

Of course we could simply assume that ALL airlines are 100% the same as the statistics seam to imply and the ills of all airlines can not be overcome with better service.

I guess it's socialist flying around this ball we call earth!
Same Sh*t, different day! LOL.

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: KLMCedric
Posted 2009-04-16 00:39:14 and read 3712 times.

I am going to get burnt for this but I feel I have a right to say it.

I understand the value of frequent flyers, I know they are the bread and butter of any airline.
I agree these people should be well taken care of.
But I also feel we have come to a point where the sense of entitlement from these FF's has
grown a bit too large. I think that because of that you see yield-sensitive airlines like KLM
tamper with the programs.
Don't forget that the stockholders are and will always be the first priority. Money has to be made.
Complying to every wish the FF's have cannot result in a lossmaking situation!

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2009-04-16 02:44:50 and read 3638 times.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 10):
First, does the quality have to dip because of bad times?

Never said that.
And it's not the subject of this treat.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 10):
Second, should all airlines fare badly or can there be product differentiation?

Again, I don't get your point here...

I was just answering to Hardiwv who is suggesting in its reply#1 that AFKL poor recent results and decision to cut 3000 jobs was not only caused by the current recession but also by the (minor) changes in the Flying Blue FFP.

I guess that the opinion on AF by our fellow Dutch A.Netters is often biased ... for the obvious reasons there is no need to mention and talk about, again ...     

About the jobs cut in the airlines industry, QANTAS will cut up to 1 750 more jobs (including 500 management positions), in addition to the reduction of 1500 jobs announced in July 2008 and 90 management positions cut announced previously in March 2009.

In the U.S, 28.000 jobs were lost in 2008 in the Airline Industry.

[Edited 2009-04-16 02:46:05]

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: TGV
Posted 2009-04-16 03:19:54 and read 3582 times.



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 6):
Reading Flyertalk I'd say the ratio of complaint vs compliment is 90-10.
My own hands-on experience says this ratio is about 30-70. Something is wrong here!

Maybe due to the fact that many people are not yet informed of the changes (thanks to the really biased information given by AFKL / (F)Lying Blue.
I can tell you that when I explain what is happening to my travelling colleagues, (who, in their majority did not follow in detail the (F)Lying Blue situtation), the ratio is not at all 30-70. The more people become aware of the changes the more the ratio will become nearer the one of Flyertalk (composed of passengers generally well informed).

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 11):
I understand the value of frequent flyers, I know they are the bread and butter of any airline.
I agree these people should be well taken care of.
But I also feel we have come to a point where the sense of entitlement from these FF's has
grown a bit too large. I think that because of that you see yield-sensitive airlines like KLM
tamper with the programs.
Don't forget that the stockholders are and will always be the first priority. Money has to be made.
Complying to every wish the FF's have cannot result in a lossmaking situation!

While one can understand the needs for the airlines, incluiding AFKL, to reduce costs, one reason of the outrage seen on Flyertalk is the way the changes have been presented, as "improvements". This is really considering the Frequent Flyers are totally stupid and will not notice these "improvements" are not improvements at all .

In parallel it is relatively risky to remove the advantages of the FFP (therefore leading your customers to base their choices on a pure cost/quality comparison) when you have prices and quality of service not on the top end of the league.

For example the changes in (F)Lying Blue have led me to choose (first time since more than 10 years) CX to fly from CDG to HKG yesterday.

I was an eye-opener:
- the comfort on board the 744 (new seats in Eco) was far higher than what you can get on a 777 equipped with 3-4-3 (and yes I have flown with these planes: just horrible, with permanent elbow contact with my neighour),
- the IFE was excellent (and not bugging),
- the service was prompt and efficient.
- the price was 300 euros lower than AF for my dates of travel.

The only negative point: no cheese. But this was compensated by heated bread, avoiding the "chewing gum" you get on AF especially at the end of a 12 hour flight, as AF does not seem able to heat the bread in Eco.

What did I loose (i.e. the advantages due to my Platinum status):
1) No lounge access: not fundamental for a Long Haul flight where the time passed in the lounge is low compared to the time passed on-board: the comfort on-board is more important than in the airport (I reckon this may be different for people flying Short-Haul).

2) No check-in at Business counters: Having made an internet checking I was sent to a drop-off counter with only 1 person in line : transparent.

3) No Priority tag on my luggage: Hong Kong being Hong Kong my suitcase was waiting for me on the carrousel when I exitted from immigration 30 minutes after the arrival at the gate: transparent. This may not be the same situtation when arriving in CDG, we will see.

4) No extra luggage allowance: I did not need it this time (may be useful in some cases). However I have just discovered that FB Elite advantages for this item are nil on routes where the piece concept is applied.

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-16 05:22:24 and read 3483 times.



Quoting TGV (Reply 13):
Maybe due to the fact that many people are not yet informed of the changes (thanks to the really biased information given by AFKL / (F)Lying Blue.
I can tell you that when I explain what is happening to my travelling colleagues, (who, in their majority did not follow in detail the (F)Lying Blue situtation), the ratio is not at all 30-70. The more people become aware of the changes the more the ratio will become nearer the one of Flyertalk (composed of passengers generally well informed).

Agree 100%.

Quoting TGV (Reply 13):
For example the changes in (F)Lying Blue have led me to choose (first time since more than 10 years) CX to fly from CDG to HKG yesterday.

I was an eye-opener:
- the comfort on board the 744 (new seats in Eco) was far higher than what you can get on a 777 equipped with 3-4-3 (and yes I have flown with these planes: just horrible, with permanent elbow contact with my neighour),
- the IFE was excellent (and not bugging),
- the service was prompt and efficient.
- the price was 300 euros lower than AF for my dates of travel.

The happened to me last month when I for the first time decided to move away from AF/KL and decided to fly AMS-HKG with CX B747. It was a complete eye-opener as you correctly illustrated. At the end, I have asked myself, why did I take so long to move away from AF/KL?

I can report on my experience on business class with CX and the following points are above KL and particularly AF:

- The seats are of another generation, with 180 degree recline, full privacy partition;
- The service is way above, always called by the name, prompt response to any request;
- Onboard caterging is of another league, with superior cuisine and more options, and full range of service;
- The IFE was better than KLM (I wont even mention AF mediocre IFE);
- The onboard amenity kit and blankets are all of superior quality;
- CX business lounge is excellent and the connection experience smooth;

Quoting TGV (Reply 13):
The only negative point: no cheese.

On CX AMS-HKG a Dutch selection of cheese was served which was better or at least on par with the one served by KLM.

What do I missed when flying with CX?

- In KL: the Delf Blue miniatures of KL given onboard world business class;
- In AF: the foie gras served as starter;

Rgs,

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: KLMCedric
Posted 2009-04-16 13:26:46 and read 3345 times.



Quoting TGV (Reply 13):
Maybe due to the fact that many people are not yet informed of the changes (thanks to the really biased information given by AFKL / (F)Lying Blue.
I can tell you that when I explain what is happening to my travelling colleagues, (who, in their majority did not follow in detail the (F)Lying Blue situtation), the ratio is not at all 30-70. The more people become aware of the changes the more the ratio will become nearer the one of Flyertalk (composed of passengers generally well informed).

I agree, and understand your point about the FB changes, and the consequent anger amongst
it's members. But the level of negativity on FT was very bad way, waaaay before all those changes,
it's been going on since I first laid eyes on this forum some years ago.

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: Mindscape
Posted 2009-04-16 17:55:12 and read 3247 times.

At my own risk that my post might be deleted by the moderator for being off-topic, or being flamed...
TGV and Hardiwv, we got it ! you have your rights to be angry at AFKL and their FF program. So good for you if you have found other carriers to bring you at your final destination. But no need to make such drama about AFKL and Flying Blue.

Quoting TGV (Reply 13):
For example the changes in (F)Lying Blue have led me to choose (first time since more than 10 years) CX to fly from CDG to HKG yesterday.

I was an eye-opener:
- the comfort on board the 744 (new seats in Eco) was far higher than what you can get on a 777 equipped with 3-4-3 (and yes I have flown with these planes: just horrible, with permanent elbow contact with my neighour),
- the IFE was excellent (and not bugging),
- the service was prompt and efficient.
- the price was 300 euros lower than AF for my dates of travel.

The only negative point: no cheese. But this was compensated by heated bread, avoiding the "chewing gum" you get on AF especially at the end of a 12 hour flight, as AF does not seem able to heat the bread in Eco.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
The happened to me last month when I for the first time decided to move away from AF/KL and decided to fly AMS-HKG with CX B747. It was a complete eye-opener as you correctly illustrated. At the end, I have asked myself, why did I take so long to move away from AF/KL?

I can report on my experience on business class with CX and the following points are above KL and particularly AF:

- The seats are of another generation, with 180 degree recline, full privacy partition;
- The service is way above, always called by the name, prompt response to any request;
- Onboard caterging is of another league, with superior cuisine and more options, and full range of service;
- The IFE was better than KLM (I wont even mention AF mediocre IFE);
- The onboard amenity kit and blankets are all of superior quality;
- CX business lounge is excellent and the connection experience smooth;

Sounds like you have found a new carrier of choice, so please join Marco Polo club the CX FF program by paying a "joining fee" of US$50, then enjoy their mileage advantages
First Class F, A: 150%
Business Class C, J, D, I: 125%
Economy Class Y, B, H, K, M, L, V: 100%

Flying Blue long hauls:
First Class F, P: 300%
Business Class C, J: 175%
Business Class I, D: 150%
Business Class Z: 125%
Premium Economy Class S, W: 125%
Premium Economy Class A: 100%
Economy Class Y, B, K: 100%
Economy Class H: 75%
Economy Class L, V, T: 50%
Economy Class G, N, Q, U: 25%

Looking at this breakdown, yes AFKL is privileging premium passengers, and price sensitive customers traveling in Y will earn less miles. I can understand the deception of those traveling in economy with AFKL and I am including myself. But AFKL is not the only airline which is practicing these Y mileage breakdown.

I am happy for both of you that you enjoyed very much your travel with CX B744 from europe to HKG. I am traveling frequently with CX between SGN and JFK on all their metal types and do really not appreciate that much their old (very cramped, not much legroom) and new Y product comfort, and when flying J, I feel like being in a sarcophagus, and better not being claustrophobic.
Service wise, i can tell you i have been shocked to see sometimes very rude on board service. The most shocking was a young FA holding a small bag being impatient with an old lady that had difficulty to put her own bag on the overhead bin and asking for help from the FA and the reply was that her hands was already holding something (a small plastic bag). Don't get me wrong, i also had very pleasant flights with CX and still fly with them between Asia and America.
And TGV, regarding your extra baggage allowance remark, well for Marco Polo Silver members it is

Quote:
Not applicable to flights to/from/via North America marketed and operated by Cathay Pacific or Cathay Pacific/Dragonair connections.

and for Gold and Diamond members

Quote:
Only one extra piece of baggage is allowed on flights to/from/via North America marketed and operated by Cathay Pacific or Cathay Pacific/Dragonair connections. The maximum weight of First and Business Class check-in baggage is 32kg per item. For Economy Class tickets issued 21 July 2008 or later, the maximum weight of check-in baggage will be revised from 32kg to 23kg per item. Bags weighing over 23kg and up to 32kg will be charged USD25 or the equivalent per item.

Flying CX in Business class, you will most of the time being called by your name. I had the same experience flying J with KLM where Dutch F/A were addressing me by my name, while with AF you will never be called by your name as the French J passengers prefer to stay anonymous. It is all about culture.
So yes, like Dr Phil says: it's OK to be angry against AFKL for feeling being "lied" and ripped off, you have the freedom to join another carrier and another FF program until you will find something you disapprove in your new FFP, but it is no need to constantly bash two great names of the airline industry.

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: KLMCedric
Posted 2009-04-16 22:49:29 and read 3154 times.



Quoting Mindscape (Reply 16):
So yes, like Dr Phil says: it's OK to be angry against AFKL for feeling being "lied" and ripped off, you have the freedom to join another carrier and another FF program until you will find something you disapprove in your new FFP, but it is no need to constantly bash two great names of the airline industry.

This is nothing. These two members are just giving their dissapointed opinion about the Flying Blue FFP.
You should see what's going on at Flyer Talk, Flying Dutchman forum, that's just sickening sometimes.

Topic: RE: AF/KL To 'cut' Thousands Of Jobs
Username: TGV
Posted 2009-04-16 22:54:20 and read 3149 times.



Quoting Mindscape (Reply 16):
So yes, like Dr Phil says: it's OK to be angry against AFKL for feeling being "lied" and ripped off, you have the freedom to join another carrier and another FF program until you will find something you disapprove in your new FFP, but it is no need to constantly bash two great names of the airline industry.

I will not join the Marco Polo club, since I am based in Paris. In fact the miles go to my BA Executive club account. And I know the "advantages" will not be very important.

But the Frequent Flyer Program is not anymore a reason to select a carrier over another, as they are more or less in line (depending on personal flying patterns one can lead, but I speak here in average).

I was not at all an AF basher in the past, all the contrary (use the search function on Flyertalk, you will see that I have more than once defended this airline).

Unfortunately I am mainly flying Long Haul in Eco (even before the "crisis"), due to company policy, so I have started to complain when the 77W were passed to the infamous 3-4-3 layout. Just try a 12 hours flight in this sardine can, and tell me what you think.

AF has deliberately decided to expell the Eco Frequent Flyers, it is their choice, maybe a wrong timing with the crisis precisely increasing the number of passengers flying in the back.
The problem being they downgraded the existing eco BEFORE proposing the Premium Voyageur class so we have to leave. Fortunately they helped us out but removing the only element that could still attract us: the FFP.

I will continue to use AF for a part of my travels, but certainly not when flights are operated by 10 abreast 777 (I think AFKL will losse 70% of my business, which represented 24 long hauls flights in 2008 for AFKL, of which 20 with AF).
And we will have to see what will be the pricing structure of the Premium voyageur class.


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