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Topic: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-16 10:54:05 and read 7524 times.

It could be just an atempt to obtain better yields by attracting premium travellers as well as to increase loads.

TP is about to change the schedule for their LIS-BSB / LIS-GIG / LIS-GRU flights (the BSB/GIG/GRU-LIS flights are overnight) which will provide to travellers another way to reach (in special thru BSB and GIG) Brazil early in the morning.

Here's the new schedules

TP185 LIS 2320 GIG 0520 (+1) - Daily - A332
TP186 GIG 1625 LIS 0600 (+1) - Daily - A332

TP197 LIS 2345 GRU 0545 (+1) - Daily - EQV (A332/A343)
TP198 GRU 1620 LIS 0605 (+1) - Daily - EQV (A332/A343)

TP4173 LIS 2330 BSB 0510 (+1) - 6x weekly
TP170 BSB 1640 LIS 0555 (+1) - 6x weekly

It should begin by Sep/10, except for LIS which is expected to begin before.

Also, with such change, TP will begin to fly to both GIG and GRU daily from LIS (plus 2x weekly from OPO) reducing it capacity in up to 40%.

[Edited 2009-04-16 11:24:02]

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2009-04-16 16:48:17 and read 7260 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
It should begin by Sep/10, except for LIS which is expected to begin before.

So if LIS begins before 10 Sep, what actually does begin at 10 Sep, OPO?

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Kleinsim
Posted 2009-04-16 17:05:51 and read 7227 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
TP185 LIS 2320 GIG 0520 (+1) - Daily - A332
TP186 GIG 1625 LIS 0600 (+1) - Daily - A332

TP197 LIS 2345 GRU 0545 (+1) - Daily - EQV (A332/A343)
TP198 GRU 1620 LIS 0605 (+1) - Daily - EQV (A332/A343)

TP4173 LIS 2330 BSB 0510 (+1) - 6x weekly
TP170 BSB 1640 LIS 0555 (+1) - 6x weekly

1. That's an awefully long time to keep the aircraft on the ground in Brazil, no? Arrive at around 5:30, don't depart until 4 in the afternoon - that's 11 hours!

2. Any reason for the odd flight number on LIS-BSB? I suspect a typo but wanted to be sure  Smile

Kleinsim

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-16 17:22:21 and read 7201 times.



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 1):
So if LIS begins before 10 Sep, what actually does begin at 10 Sep, OPO?

My mistake, i LIS-BSB begins overnight before Sep 10.

Quoting Kleinsim (Reply 2):
2. Any reason for the odd flight number on LIS-BSB? I suspect a typo but wanted to be sure

Seems to be an "extra" flight. It's not clear if BSB will continue in the future.

Quoting Kleinsim (Reply 2):
1. That's an awefully long time to keep the aircraft on the ground in Brazil, no? Arrive at around 5:30, don't depart until 4 in the afternoon - that's 11 hours

Yes, agree. But be in mind that TP now have 1 plane available the entire week, and reducing GIG and GRU flights, they create almost a second one. At the current economic situation, TP is just trying to improve their revenue, reducing also expenses.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Eghansen
Posted 2009-04-16 17:40:57 and read 7173 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
TP is about to change the schedule for their LIS-BSB / LIS-GIG / LIS-GRU flights (the BSB/GIG/GRU-LIS flights are overnight) which will provide to travellers another way to reach (in special thru BSB and GIG) Brazil early in the morning.

They actually are returning to the schedules they had in the past. TAP for years had a whole bank of flights which left LIS to Brazil around 11 pm.

Quoting Kleinsim (Reply 2):
1. That's an awefully long time to keep the aircraft on the ground in Brazil, no? Arrive at around 5:30, don't depart until 4 in the afternoon - that's 11 hours!

Both the American and European carriers have been operating flights to South America with this schedule for years. Flight arrives in SA early in the morning, sit there all day, and fly back in the evening.

They do the same thing on flights from Europe to JNB.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: RicardoFG
Posted 2009-04-16 22:14:17 and read 7043 times.

How are load factors on TP Brazil flights? I know GIG and GRU do well, but how are smaller destinations doing such as REC, BSB and FOR?? Is there business traffic on these routes or is it mainly VFR traffic, because it seems to me (as an outsider) that TP may be overdoing it in Brazil. Could some of these aircrafts not be better utilized on perhaps startup routes to Asia, or extra flights to LAD, which I believe are one of TP's best performing routes, both with pax and cargo as Angola is booming now, or even a new north american destination that TP previously talked about possibly starting such as IAD, BOS or YYZ???

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-17 00:41:07 and read 6968 times.

Thanks for the news.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Here's the new schedules

TP185 LIS 2320 GIG 0520 (+1) - Daily - A332
TP186 GIG 1625 LIS 0600 (+1) - Daily - A332

TP197 LIS 2345 GRU 0545 (+1) - Daily - EQV (A332/A343)
TP198 GRU 1620 LIS 0605 (+1) - Daily - EQV (A332/A343)

TP4173 LIS 2330 BSB 0510 (+1) - 6x weekly
TP170 BSB 1640 LIS 0555 (+1) - 6x weekly

The change to overnight operations was long overdue as it leads to much higher yields and loads. This is the right move and therefore TAP will improve its performance in these key markets.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Also, with such change, TP will begin to fly to both GIG and GRU daily from LIS (plus 2x weekly from OPO) reducing it capacity in up to 40%.

There is capacity reduction, but better schedule and timetable, of course, planes used for these routes will also be underutilized because they will be iddle during the day. But as I said, this move was necessary and TAP will be able to extract better yields on these markets.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-17 06:01:30 and read 6745 times.

I have mixed feelings about this but I'm hoping for the best. The main reason for the daylight flight was aircraft utilization. LIS is situated in a unique position that allows TP to operate these routes with only 1 aircraft. They may not attract big yields from connecting passengers but they make up for it with lower costs and high aircraft utilization.

Quoting Kleinsim (Reply 2):
1. That's an awefully long time to keep the aircraft on the ground in Brazil, no? Arrive at around 5:30, don't depart until 4 in the afternoon - that's 11 hours!

That's probably why they are doing it at this time. TP is reducing frequencies and parking planes. So if the aircraft are going to be parked at LIS where there's really no space, park them in BSB/GRU/GIG instead and take advantage of the potential higher yields.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 4):
Both the American and European carriers have been operating flights to South America with this schedule for years.

Not all American and European carrier operate this way. I know that AA operates daytime flights to/from Brazil. And I believe KL does too. It all depends on the market requirements and other operating factors.

In other TP news, it is now being reported that their loss for 2008 will be 320 million Euro. Ouch! The news just keeps getting worse. They spent 67% more on fuel in 2008 than in 2007. The PGA pilots are now strinking, demanding less work and more benefits. Good to see the unions are in tune with the real world  Smile I can't understand why the Government doesn't set them straight.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-17 06:18:27 and read 6727 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
I have mixed feelings about this but I'm hoping for the best.

I am personally very much in favour of this move which I think came way too late.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
LIS is situated in a unique position that allows TP to operate these routes with only 1 aircraft. They may not attract big yields from connecting passengers but they make up for it with lower costs and high aircraft utilization

AMS is in a less favourable hub position and KL also operates GRU daylight. It is not a matter of hub location, but mainly of aircraft utilisation. The point is that the high aircraft utilisation entailing daylight segment compromises yields and loads.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
Not all American and European carrier operate this way. I know that AA operates daytime flights to/from Brazil. And I believe KL does too. It all depends on the market requirements and other operating factors.

AZ, BA, DL, CO, LH, LX, AF, etc operate red-eye flights. All of TAM flights to Europe are red-eye. Almost all carriers operate red-eye. The only exceptions are:

1) KLM,

2) AF (this because it already operates GRU and GIG red-eye anyway, only its second daily flight to GRU and GIG operates daylight),

3) IB (also because it already operates GRU red-eye, only its second daily flight operates daylight).

4) AA again operates one of its seasonal flights to GRU daylight because all its other 40 or so regular weekly flight operates all red eye: ie MIA-GRU, GIG-MIA, DFW-GRU and JFK-GRU red-eye.

5) KE (GRU-LAX operate daylight, but from May 09 will face DL GRU-LAX red-eye which will probably kill KE).

I must say I personally was surprised that TAP kept for such a long time operating in GRU/GIG daylight. It is crystal clear that red-eye flights attract higher yields and loads.

Airlines such as LH/LX deploy 3 daily flights to GRU as red-eye and it is therefore not surprising that LH/LX shows the best performance in premium traffic in Brazil among European carriers.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Also, with such change, TP will begin to fly to both GIG and GRU daily from LIS (plus 2x weekly from OPO) reducing it capacity in up to 40%.

In the case of GRU capacity will decreasey slightly less because GRU will see a mix of A332 and A343. This means GRU will be the only destination in Brazil to see TAP A343, since they are now devoted to JNB and MPT operations.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-17 06:39:47 and read 6698 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
I must say I personally was surprised that TAP kept for such a long time operating in GRU/GIG daylight. It is crystal clear that red-eye flights attract higher yields and loads.

No one doubts that but I think you missed my point regarding hub location though. The question is, do you think TP will steal customers from LH/LX/AF/BA with this move towards red-eye flights? I'm not quite sure. The reason TP could make the daylight flights work is because they have a strong local demand and using a red-eye from any other carrier between Brazil and Portugal implies backtracking significantly to another European hub thus defeating most of the benefits of the red-eye flight. If I have to depart LIS at 2pm to go catch a red-eye for FRA-GRU, I may as well depart at noon and go non-stop. That's my point.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-17 06:52:50 and read 6677 times.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 9):
The question is, do you think TP will steal customers from LH/LX/AF/BA with this move towards red-eye flights?

I do think so. I can guarantee that to many premium fliers timetable is of key concern, and in this connection red-eye operation is a prerequisite.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 9):
The reason TP could make the daylight flights work is because they have a strong local demand and using a red-eye from any other carrier between Brazil and Portugal implies backtracking significantly to another European hub thus defeating most of the benefits of the red-eye flight. If I have to depart LIS at 2pm to go catch a red-eye for FRA-GRU, I may as well depart at noon and go non-stop. That's my point.

I fully appreciate your reasoning. However, I think perhaps you should invert your thinking. In fact to the majority of Brazil-Portugal premium traffic, the option was always TAP because of the number of frequencies and because otherwise you would need to backtrack to other hub such as MAD, CDG, AMS, etc. Therefore the fact that no red-eye schedule was available was of less concern for TAP exactly because as you explained this market had high density.

However, to the majority of TAP feeding traffic it had to rely on fare sensitive public because connecting with TAP to Brazil entailed boarding a flight at 6am in LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA, etc. This was a horrible schedule and scared away many business and corporate travellers.

With the new timetable TAP will be better prepared to capture premium demand in other markets and it now will compete head-to-head with the schedule of its rivals.

Rgs,

[Edited 2009-04-17 06:55:48]

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Offloaded
Posted 2009-04-17 08:10:55 and read 6304 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
I can't understand why the Government doesn't set them straight.

With a PS government and Euro elections just around the corner, I suspect they probably won't.

This overnight schedule will be interesting to see what doors it opens. JNB is another schedule that seems to change quite a bit - first a day flight, then a night flight, one that stops in MPM....

Quoting RicardoFG (Reply 5):
REC, BSB and FOR?? Is there business traffic on these routes or is it mainly VFR traffic, because it seems to me (as an outsider) that TP may be overdoing it in Brazil. Could some of these aircrafts not be better utilized on perhaps startup routes to Asia, or extra flights to LAD, which I believe are one of TP's best performing routes, both with pax and cargo as Angola is booming now, or even a new north american destination that TP previously talked about possibly starting such as IAD, BOS or YYZ???

I would suspect NAT FOR REC is majority tourism, SAO RIO BSB more business and VFR. LAD is served twice daily - 1 x DT and 1 x TP.

New routes for TP will be WAW HEL and MOW. No Asia, no N. America.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2009-04-17 09:18:57 and read 6078 times.



Quoting Kleinsim (Reply 2):

1. That's an awefully long time to keep the aircraft on the ground in Brazil, no? Arrive at around 5:30, don't depart until 4 in the afternoon - that's 11 hours!

Is the layover long enough for them to use the same crew in both directions? If so, that's a big cost saver.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-17 09:23:32 and read 6055 times.



Quoting RicardoFG (Reply 5):
How are load factors on TP Brazil flights? I know GIG and GRU do well, but how are smaller destinations doing such as REC, BSB and FOR?? Is there business traffic on these routes or is it mainly VFR traffic, because it seems to me (as an outsider) that TP may be overdoing it in Brazil. Could some of these aircrafts not be better utilized on perhaps startup routes to Asia, or extra flights to LAD, which I believe are one of TP's best performing routes, both with pax and cargo as Angola is booming now, or even a new north american destination that TP previously talked about possibly starting such as IAD, BOS or YYZ???

Loads were in March:

GIG 65% GRU 61% SSA 69% FOR 64% BSB 54% CNF 52% NAT 67%

LAD performs better with 78%

I don't see new routes right now, by the fact EWR nowadays is one of the worst stations with loads closer to 57%

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
In the case of GRU capacity will decreasey slightly less because GRU will see a mix of A332 and A343. This means GRU will be the only destination in Brazil to see TAP A343, since they are now devoted to JNB and MPT operations

The difference is just 4 seats more for the A343. But for Y passengers, the A332 is a better plane with AVOD PTV while the A343 offers just old IFE without PTV. The A332 is a better plane for the passenger.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2009-04-17 09:26:45 and read 6034 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 3):
At the current economic situation, TP is just trying to improve their revenue, reducing also expenses

Thanks for posting. I also heard that some of the other destinations will see a different schedule with afternoon departures out of LIS (to allow many more connections) and late night departure from Brazil. It seems like you said TAP is trying to move upmarket with quality timings and fewer seats. Very sensible.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-17 10:14:02 and read 5865 times.



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 14):
Thanks for posting. I also heard that some of the other destinations will see a different schedule with afternoon departures out of LIS (to allow many more connections) and late night departure from Brazil. It seems like you said TAP is trying to move upmarket with quality timings and fewer seats. Very sensible

I have received the other routes schedule and you're right, seems that they are trying to move to get their connections out of GIG, GRU and BSB, and to deal better with the O&D markets of Northeast. This would allow also more comfortable connections for people from Europe to reach Brazil. My only doubt right now is, TP network was based on early morning departures out of LIS and early morning arivals also. Do they will offer late night flight good connections ? At least for BSB i believe they need it , but GIG and GRU, can deal with O&D.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: IAD380
Posted 2009-04-17 12:31:21 and read 5678 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
GIG 65% GRU 61% SSA 69% FOR 64% BSB 54% CNF 52% NAT 67%

REC??

Will TP suspend flights to CNF and BSB is loads factors don't improve?

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-17 21:51:33 and read 5533 times.



Quoting IAD380 (Reply 16):
REC??

Sorry, i forgot, REC 60%

As requested by my source, the info come from Alves, and any contact can be made thru tap.estatistica@gmail.com

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 16):
Will TP suspend flights to CNF and BSB is loads factors don't improve?

I believe with less flights to GIG and GRU, CNF and BSB may improve. Just need to say that if the flights went down to 7 weekly last month, results for GIG and GRU would be around 88%
(i'm just considering total pax divided by 31 flights, and of course not considering any possible passenger that would not consider a problem the reduced number of flights)

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-18 05:15:41 and read 5432 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
I do think so. I can guarantee that to many premium fliers timetable is of key concern, and in this connection red-eye operation is a prerequisite.

I'd say reliability factors very highly as well. TP doesn't have a very good reputation for on-time performance, and that's to say nothing about lost luggage, however luggage is not usualy an important factor for business travelers. Don't get me wrong. I'm a skeptic by nature but I really hope this move works out.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
Is the layover long enough for them to use the same crew in both directions? If so, that's a big cost saver.

LOL. You're not familiar with the TP employee culture are you?  Smile
Even if legaly possible, there's no way the unions would forego a nice layover in the tropics. Look at what they're doing right now at PGA, and that's for "regional" short haul flying.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
I don't see new routes right now, by the fact EWR nowadays is one of the worst stations with loads closer to 57%

That's not unusual. EWR loads are the lowest around this time of the year, as well as late Fall. Loads to EWR are very seasonal and IIRC, this is only the first year that they're not operating with the smaller A310 (or is this the 2nd year?). It also doesn't help that TP's fares out of EWR are some of the most expensive. Any search for a fare to LIS from any N.American city, always shows TP as one of the most expensive options.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Antonioavelar
Posted 2009-04-18 05:24:35 and read 5423 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
That's not unusual. EWR loads are the lowest around this time of the year, as well as late Fall. Loads to EWR are very seasonal and IIRC, this is only the first year that they're not operating with the smaller A310 (or is this the 2nd year?). It also doesn't help that TP's fares out of EWR are some of the most expensive. Any search for a fare to LIS from any N.American city, always shows TP as one of the most expensive options.

Still, TAP did some gigantic promotional campaigns regarding NYC, with return flights from 385€ to 588€, I believe. Some months ago they began a campaign with the 500€ range return ticket, later they brought the fare down to the 400€ range, and more recently to the 300€ range (not sure if the campaign is already over). I got to book a LIS-EWR-LIS rotation in 13FEB (LIS-EWR 14FEB and EWR-LIS a week later), and the full fare was about 530€!

Anyway, it didn't work that much, as we can easily see by looking at the yields. But the EWR route will be back to high occupation rates with the spring, I'm positive about that.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-18 07:21:51 and read 5376 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
That's not unusual. EWR loads are the lowest around this time of the year, as well as late Fall. Loads to EWR are very seasonal and IIRC, this is only the first year that they're not operating with the smaller A310 (or is this the 2nd year?). It also doesn't help that TP's fares out of EWR are some of the most expensive. Any search for a fare to LIS from any N.American city, always shows TP as one of the most expensive options

It's the first year with the A332 (only) to EWR, last year we saw a mix of A310/A332. But last year they obtained loads like 81% in average for April and May, so i believe 50% is very low.
Also compared to last year, EWR face the major drop in the number of passengers, more than 40%.
TP should rethink about their pricing policy as it's nice to carry good yields, but not when we're talking about 50% loads.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-18 09:41:56 and read 5304 times.



Quoting Antonioavelar (Reply 19):
Still, TAP did some gigantic promotional campaigns regarding NYC, with return flights from 385€ to 588€, I believe.

That's still a lot higher than what you can get on other European carriers. Their biggest problem is that they don't yet have code-sharing agreements with CO at EWR so they are very exposed to the O&D market to EWR.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
It's the first year with the A332 (only) to EWR, last year we saw a mix of A310/A332. But last year they obtained loads like 81% in average for April and May, so i believe 50% is very low.

Last year was a stellar year for TATL traffic because the Euro was so strong against the Dollar, and the effects of the economic downturn had not yet reached Europe.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Dirkou
Posted 2009-04-18 13:20:31 and read 5200 times.

With the new posting of 320 Million EUR loss in 2008 (as per Parpublica, their owner - the "institution of the portuguese government to deal with state owned airlines) it seems TAP is now starting to struggle.

It's the start of their end in my opinion. They a strategy of growth which made all of us think everything was on the right direction but we now see that this growth is artificial and there is no demand for it. Now I would like to see what happens when they start to return some A330/A320: as a state owned airline are they alllowed to send employees home?

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Eghansen
Posted 2009-04-18 13:37:06 and read 5183 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
Not all American and European carrier operate this way.

I never said ALL flights to South America are operated this way or even MOST flights are operated this way.

However, to certain destinations such as EZE, UA, AA, DL, AF and CO operate ALL their flights this way with an overnight flight to EZE and an overnight flight back to their hubs.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-19 09:54:53 and read 4865 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
You're right, however, other airlines are showing reductions of 10-20% on TATL traffic, less than what TP is showing.

That's not a fair comparison. Other carries have cut frequencies and downsized or parked aircraft. Now if you look at total passengers transported, TP has had one of the smallest drops of all European carriers. That also highlights the difficulties that smaller nich carriers have during these times. While AF/LH/BA/etc can easily cut available seats by switching to smaller planes or cutting a few additional frequencies out of hundreds of flights without much impact to their customers, smaller carriers like TP who only operate 1 daily flight into most citites and sometimes not even, and only have 1 type of long-haul A/C, have no choice but to continue to operate those flights a less that desirable load factors. That just goes to show you how good the A310 was for TP.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LJ
Posted 2009-04-19 13:31:36 and read 4785 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
However, to the majority of TAP feeding traffic it had to rely on fare sensitive public because connecting with TAP to Brazil entailed boarding a flight at 6am in LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA, etc. This was a horrible schedule and scared away many business and corporate travellers.

I wouldn´t be suprised if TP also cancels the nightstopper at AMS and/or BRU. The reason for these nightstoppers was to be able to provide connections ex AMS or BRU... This will surely improve their profitability as I doubt these nightstoppers are economicaly viable without the Brazillean connections at LIS.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2009-04-19 15:45:34 and read 4832 times.



Quoting LJ (Reply 25):
I wouldn´t be suprised if TP also cancels the nightstopper at AMS and/or BRU. The reason for these nightstoppers was to be able to provide connections ex AMS or BRU... This will surely improve their profitability as I doubt these nightstoppers are economicaly viable without the Brazillean connections at LIS

Uh oh, I really hope that will not happen - I take those flights a lot...

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: CityofAthens
Posted 2009-04-19 16:28:31 and read 4815 times.

Just on the side-subject of carriers on the ground at GRU, BA is currently operating a daily shuttle between GRU and EZE, in between the early arrival into GRU and late afternoon departure back to LHR. So the daily BA 744 doesn't usually remain on the ground at GRU for very long.

Anyway, back to TAP ...

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-19 17:38:10 and read 4789 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 24):
That's not a fair comparison. Other carries have cut frequencies and downsized or parked aircraft. Now if you look at total passengers transported, TP has had one of the smallest drops of all European carriers

I don't understand your point but be in mind, TP lost about 5,000 passengers to North America which in fact is a lot. Probably BA, LH and AF lost more passengers in absolute terms.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: BOAC911
Posted 2009-04-19 20:10:59 and read 4735 times.



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 4):
They actually are returning to the schedules they had in the past. TAP for years had a whole bank of flights which left LIS to Brazil around 11 pm.

Exactly! And they've also had a hybrid operation (mix of daylight & red-eye) in the past.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-20 00:19:02 and read 4704 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):

The difference is just 4 seats more for the A343. But for Y passengers, the A332 is a better plane with AVOD PTV while the A343 offers just old IFE without PTV. The A332 is a better plane for the passenger.

This is not correct. Capacity the A343 has 15% more capacity overall. Only on business class there are 12 additional seats. The A343 are also fitted with AVOD PTV since they've been upgraded.

A343 274 seats (36C/238Y)
A332 230 seats (24C/206Y)

http://www.flytap.com/Portugal/pt/Empresa/Frota/

TAPs A343 have 12 additional C seats and 32 additional Y seats, total of 44 additional seats. GRU will be the route with more capacity in Brazil after the changes are implemented.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
I'd say reliability factors very highly as well. TP doesn't have a very good reputation for on-time performance, and that's to say nothing about lost luggage, however luggage is not usualy an important factor for business travelers. Don't get me wrong. I'm a skeptic by nature but I really hope this move works out.

You have a crucial point here. TAP reliability was always very low, especially with on-time performance and baggage handling. With the red-eye operations these aspects will improve significantly and so will TAP reputation.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
That's not unusual. EWR loads are the lowest around this time of the year, as well as late Fall. Loads to EWR are very seasonal and IIRC, this is only the first year that they're not operating with the smaller A310 (or is this the 2nd year?). It also doesn't help that TP's fares out of EWR are some of the most expensive. Any search for a fare to LIS from any N.American city, always shows TP as one of the most expensive options.

EWR traffic has a lot of seasonallity with low months and other months performing particularly well. EWR should remain among TAP best performing stations.

Quoting LJ (Reply 25):
I wouldn´t be suprised if TP also cancels the nightstopper at AMS and/or BRU. The reason for these nightstoppers was to be able to provide connections ex AMS or BRU... This will surely improve their profitability as I doubt these nightstoppers are economicaly viable without the Brazillean connections at LIS.

You have a good point here. This will lead TAP to change part of its intra-European network, resulting in important cost saving measures as TAP red-eye departure fits with the schedule of business traffic inside Europe.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: C010T3
Posted 2009-04-20 01:36:51 and read 4667 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):

This is not correct. Capacity the A343 has 15% more capacity overall. Only on business class there are 12 additional seats. The A343 are also fitted with AVOD PTV since they've been upgraded.

A343 274 seats (36C/238Y)
A332 230 seats (24C/206Y)

http://www.flytap.com/Portugal/pt/Empresa/Frota/

TAPs A343 have 12 additional C seats and 32 additional Y seats, total of 44 additional seats. GRU will be the route with more capacity in Brazil after the changes are implemented.

I really don't think that's very accurate. TP's seat maps show another picture...

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-20 02:25:08 and read 4650 times.



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 31):
I really don't think that's very accurate. TP's seat maps show another picture...

TAP seat maps are very clear, and I have just provided the information as given by TAP official website and other seat map websites.

Anyway, it is not very difficult to figure out that the A343 has about 15% more capacity than the A332, this is not rocket science.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-20 04:40:19 and read 4582 times.



Quoting LJ (Reply 25):
I wouldn´t be suprised if TP also cancels the nightstopper at AMS and/or BRU.

I would, especially the AMS flight. Intra-Europe flights are still TP's bread and butter. Business passengers favor early morning departures and evening returns. The only way TP can offer that is with a RON.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):
I don't understand your point but be in mind, TP lost about 5,000 passengers to North America which in fact is a lot. Probably BA, LH and AF lost more passengers in absolute terms.

My point was, if and airline reduces capacity at the same rate that the number of passengers drops, there won't be a big difference in the load factor. Small airlines like TP cannot reduce capacity without a significant impact to their operations so their load factors are more significantly impacted.
I've only seen the systemwide numbers for Jan and Feb, and TP only saw a 1.9% drop in passengers during those months. I've also read somewhere that bookings for Easter vacation were very strong. I am 100% convinced that TP's problem is not one of demand, but rather high operating costs with a big chunck going towards old fashioned salaries and perks. But as with every state owned company, only the government can change that.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-20 04:45:32 and read 4570 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 33):
I would, especially the AMS flight. Intra-Europe flights are still TP's bread and butter. Business passengers favor early morning departures and evening returns. The only way TP can offer that is with a RON.

This is not always the case, especially where you have less density of O&D business traffic.

For example, KL operates AMS-LIS twice a day with departures 12:40 and 21:00 which primarely fits KL banking hub in AMS. TAP would operate its route in the same fashion, focusing on its banking hub timetable.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2009-04-20 06:03:46 and read 4531 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 33):

I would, especially the AMS flight. Intra-Europe flights are still TP's bread and butter. Business passengers favor early morning departures and evening returns. The only way TP can offer that is with a RON.

For BRU this will mean that the late LIS-BRU will likely be maintained, due to the European Commission attracting a fair share of passengers (at least I hope so). AMS may not be so lucky...

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-20 06:10:53 and read 4529 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
This is not correct. Capacity the A343 has 15% more capacity overall. Only on business class there are 12 additional seats. The A343 are also fitted with AVOD PTV since they've been upgraded.

A343 274 seats (36C/238Y)
A332 230 seats (24C/206Y)

This is not correct. A332 now offers 264 seats and the A343 offers 268 seats. TAP information is not updated. Would be almost impossible to see loads of 266 people on A332's as usual if it's with 230 seats.
And again, The A343 doesn't have even PTV (never have been upgraded on this) on all seats! Good for business customers ? Yes, but terrible for economy.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
EWR traffic has a lot of seasonallity with low months and other months performing particularly well. EWR should remain among TAP best performing stations

Seasonality can't explain why they lost 6705 passengers from the same month of previous year. If we're comparing different months for sure, but not talking about the same month.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-20 06:17:22 and read 4523 times.



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 35):
For BRU this will mean that the late LIS-BRU will likely be maintained, due to the European Commission attracting a fair share of passengers (at least I hope so). AMS may not be so lucky...

I am sure the AMS non-EU business demand created by corporations such as Shell, Unilever, ING, Philips, warrants the evening departure more than the BRU demand created by the "EU civil servants" that in the majority of cases do not even get business ticket paid anyway.

Traffic AMS-LIS is far more consolidated as compared to LIS-BRU. TAP uses the A320 for one of its 3 daily AMS flights while BRU only gets A319 for the 3 daily flight. KL uses B738 AMS-LIS for both daily flights.

In general I think TAP will cut LIS-BRU and LIS-AMS to 2 daily flights the same way KL and Brussels Airways already operate the route.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-20 06:19:55 and read 4520 times.



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 35):
For BRU this will mean that the late LIS-BRU will likely be maintained, due to the European Commission attracting a fair share of passengers (at least I hope so). AMS may not be so lucky...

Any reduction of network in Europe is good for cost-saving, but may hit a little the flights to Brazil, specially northeast.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-20 06:42:11 and read 4502 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 36):
This is not correct. A332 now offers 264 seats and the A343 offers 268 seats

Oh dear...if TAP really fitted its A332 planes with 264 seats it would be really low-yielding, holiday configuration... For example, AF seats 219 pax on its A332, NW seats 243 pax and KL 251 seats, and NW and KL are know for having small business cabins....

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-20 07:46:40 and read 4471 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 39):
Oh dear...if TAP really fitted its A332 planes with 264 seats it would be really low-yielding, holiday configuration... For example, AF seats 219 pax on its A332, NW seats 243 pax and KL 251 seats, and NW and KL are know for having small business cabins....

Agree with you. But let's say AF carry 219 pax with 40C while TP carry 264 with 24C. Can we change 16C (more/less 3 rows) with 6 rows of 8 seats (48)... yes, probably.
It's a clear low yield focus (TP), and that's why i use to say here that TP should think about a different layout for their A332 fleet, to include F, more C or create a Premium Economy product, or in the end having 2 A332 different configurations. For sure they will need more C for both GRU and GIG markets, but AFAIK, with 10 weekly flights to LAD they demand almost 2 planes for that, plus 1 or 2 for JNB and MPT. The other available, it's not available every day, and remember, they will need 2 frames.

What will happen ? C fares will be more expensive and hard to find.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: C010T3
Posted 2009-04-20 08:29:18 and read 4437 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 32):

Anyway, it is not very difficult to figure out that the A343 has about 15% more capacity than the A332, this is not rocket science.

I'm not questioning the greater capacity of the 343. I'm just saying that the seat map from the GDS show another picture.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-20 09:12:02 and read 4403 times.



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 41):
I'm not questioning the greater capacity of the 343. I'm just saying that the seat map from the GDS show another picture.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 40):
Agree with you. But let's say AF carry 219 pax with 40C while TP carry 264 with 24C. Can we change 16C (more/less 3 rows) with 6 rows of 8 seats (48)... yes, probably.
It's a clear low yield focus (TP), and that's why i use to say here that TP should think about a different layout for their A332 fleet, to include F, more C or create a Premium Economy product, or in the end having 2 A332 different configurations. For sure they will need more C for both GRU and GIG markets, but AFAIK, with 10 weekly flights to LAD they demand almost 2 planes for that, plus 1 or 2 for JNB and MPT. The other available, it's not available every day, and remember, they will need 2 frames.

As I said, TAP A332 configuration is probably compared to charter operators...Another example: LX seats 196 pax on its A332...

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-20 09:30:53 and read 4393 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 42):
As I said, TAP A332 configuration is probably compared to charter operators...Another example: LX seats 196 pax on its A332...

There's no doubt about this, and this is the plane they use for all routes in Brazil. Again, i think it's too much in terms of Y for routes like GIG, GRU and EWR, fine for some Northeast routes.
Charter operators puts even more seats on their A332's.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-20 09:46:11 and read 4374 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 36):
Seasonality can't explain why they lost 6705 passengers from the same month of previous year. If we're comparing different months for sure, but not talking about the same month.

Do you have the number of passengers for March of last year? I'd be far more interested in passenger numbers than LF. Last year EWR was being operated with A310 in the off-season, which had a lot less seats so naturaly comparing LF between this year (A330) and last year (A310) is like comparing apples and oranges. There's no hiding the fact that the A330 is too big of an airplane for TP to operate to EWR during low season. Hopefully loads will improve this Fall when CO is fully integrated into *A and TP can actually take advantage of CO's feed at EWR.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-20 12:05:47 and read 4313 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 44):
Do you have the number of passengers for March of last year?

LIS-EWR ... mar/08 .... 6.632
LIS-EWR ... mar/09 .... 3.921

EWR-LIS .... mar/08 ... 6.266
EWR-LIS .... mar/09 ....3.637

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 44):
Last year EWR was being operated with A310 in the off-season, which had a lot less seats so naturaly comparing LF between this year (A330) and last year (A310) is like comparing apples and oranges

See above, even if being more seats, the drop is huge.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 44):
There's no hiding the fact that the A330 is too big of an airplane for TP to operate to EWR during low season. Hopefully loads will improve this Fall when CO is fully integrated into *A and TP can actually take advantage of CO's feed at EWR

As we discussed previously, TP should begin to think in a better (premium) configuration for the A332. Probably 24C is too few seats for a Portugal-US flight. This could help to generate premium revenue and to better fill the planes. Another possibility is to establish a premium economy section.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: WINGS
Posted 2009-04-20 12:27:40 and read 4270 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 45):

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 44):
Do you have the number of passengers for March of last year?

LIS-EWR ... mar/08 .... 6.632
LIS-EWR ... mar/09 .... 3.921

EWR-LIS .... mar/08 ... 6.266
EWR-LIS .... mar/09 ....3.637

If I'm not mistaken Easter in 2008 was in March, while Easter was in April this year. I'm sure that this would have an influence on the overall numbers.

Regards,
Wings

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-20 12:44:31 and read 4266 times.



Quoting WINGS (Reply 46):
If I'm not mistaken Easter in 2008 was in March, while Easter was in April this year. I'm sure that this would have an influence on the overall numbers.

It should, but not so strong and i believe you agree with me. You may have three or four days of full flights each bound, but the numbers show a huge drop.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-21 00:07:59 and read 4146 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 43):
There's no doubt about this, and this is the plane they use for all routes in Brazil.

GRU gest the A343 and the A332.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 43):
Again, i think it's too much in terms of Y for routes like GIG, GRU and EWR, fine for some Northeast routes.

TAP focus is on Y pax and the configuration of the A332 is therefore more appropriate for the current scenario where we have a strong decrease in business pax. The bigger economy cabin fits well with TAP market even in GRU/GIG/EWR, etc.

For some markets with stronger business demand TAP is using the A343 this is the case of LAD, JNB, GRU.

I do not agree that TAP needs to reconfigure its aircraft or even create an intermediary premium economy class. This move would be too expensive and difficult to manage considering TAP routes.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 43):
Charter operators puts even more seats on their A332's.

Many put less...TAP Y is nothing to write home about. The C cabin is more competitive. I could not yet find a legacy carrier which puts more pax than TAP on the A332...

Rgs,

[Edited 2009-04-21 00:23:30]

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: WINGS
Posted 2009-04-21 02:15:10 and read 4104 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 47):
It should, but not so strong and i believe you agree with me.

Correct. While Easter numbers might have an influence, it by no means justifies the huge decrease in overall number of passengers transported.

In my opinion (for what it is worth) I believe that Tap and its Group should initiate the following steps to recovery and overall quality of product being offered.

* New Business Class Cabin or Economy Plus Cabin on board their A319/A320/A321 fleet. The current business class product is nothing more than a joke, despite that other European airlines also opt for the current arrangement of just blocking of the middle seat.

* Look towards the Q400, ATR 42/72 to replace Portugalia's current fleet of EMB 145's. The E170/190/195 should be looked at to replace Portugalia's fleet of F100 and also some of Tap's A319's that do not demand such capacity.

* Take full advantage of Porto Airport. I believe that Porto has been neglected for too long. It has the structure and even demand to rival Lisbon as alternative to certain long haul routes. I still fail to see why Porto does not have at least on direct flight to Luanda.


Regards,
Wings

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-21 06:51:23 and read 4042 times.

TAP announced today a loss of EUR 229 million with VEM (Varig Engenharia e Manutenção). VEM has 3,000 staff.

http://economia.uol.com.br/ultnot/lusa/2009/04/21/ult3679u6498.jhtm

It seems TAP will face a tough year 2009.

Rgs,

[Edited 2009-04-21 06:51:41]

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2009-04-21 06:57:16 and read 4058 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 50):
TAP announced today a loss of EUR 229 million with VEM (Varig Engenharia e Manutenção)

You mean their total loss was €229m with VEM results already included, or is it €229m loss to be added to TAP's own results?

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-21 07:18:53 and read 4050 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 48):
GRU gest the A343 and the A332.

And GIG also... eff. Oct 25 daily A343 to GIG, daily A332 to GRU, but i hope they use the A332 always to GIG as passengers in both classes says it's better. My dad loves the A332 business product.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 48):
TAP focus is on Y pax and the configuration of the A332 is therefore more appropriate for the current scenario where we have a strong decrease in business pax. The bigger economy cabin fits well with TAP market even in GRU/GIG/EWR, etc.

They only fill their planes (with 264/268 seats) on a regular basis on a period of 45 days from July 15 to August 5 and from December 18 to December 24, plus for some routes, December 30 to January 3.
On the other hand, they lost revenue as it's easy to see their small C cabin full, year-round!
So what's the point to deal with a plane with seats available around 330 days of the year ?
Airline have the worst kind of stock in the world, once a plane departs, you have to write-off your inventory... so the best is to have a product able to generates the most revenue, year-round, and not only during peak times. For peak times you may add seasonal frequencies, not to have and handle a plane bigger than you need.
Better to have a premium economy to generate more revenue, better to have a bigger business cabin to take advantage of business demand or in the end to allow easier upgrades for those with premium Y fares.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 48):
For some markets with stronger business demand TAP is using the A343 this is the case of LAD, JNB, GRU.

Agree about LAD that see even 3 daily A343, not sure about the others...
Not only because of stronger business demand. The A343 is not so good in performance as the A332 and for sure is indicated for longer fligths rather than shorter ones. I'm sure the A332 is at least 15% more efficient than the A343. JNB is a full A343 station because of cargo needs, JNB is about 2,000m over sea level, MPM is about 8,300Km from LIS as well as it's a very strong cargo station. TAP use their A343 to such stations on a regular basis because it's better. TAP uses the A332 to Brazil because it's better.
The fact they will use the A343 is just because they need to complete the alocation of 6 planes, and they don't have 6 A332, so they will use the A343 just two days to complete the schedule, not because of "stronger business demand" otherwise the flights will not be the one LIS-GRU on tuesday (the worst day of the week) and GRU-LIS on wednesday (another weak day for business).
Again, the fact that they used 2 weekly A343 to GRU is based on:
a) Lack of A332 available every day
b) Availability of A343 because of 10 LAD flights (plus TAAG ones, as i mentioned some days of week TP flies 3x A343 overnight LIS-LAD), plus 5 JNB and MPM

Quoting WINGS (Reply 49):
Take full advantage of Porto Airport. I believe that Porto has been neglected for too long. It has the structure and even demand to rival Lisbon as alternative to certain long haul routes. I still fail to see why Porto does not have at least on direct flight to Luanda.

Agree. OPO should be used more as a local hub for a good portion of Spain also, and in my view, TP should try to develop it and then create a small network to Latin America. EZE and may be BOG could be nice additions to TP network, IF they can distribute passengers. LAD for sure is another big missing point, and looking that they offer 3x daily services some days of week, i do believe the extra 3 flights should be OPO-LAD.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 49):
In my opinion (for what it is worth) I believe that Tap and its Group should initiate the following steps to recovery and overall quality of product being offered

Agree, and this includes the A343 as well as a more (or just a new) suitable A332 config.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-21 07:26:53 and read 4044 times.



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 51):
You mean their total loss was €229m with VEM results already included, or is it €229m loss to be added to TAP's own results?

The loss should be added to TAP's own results...I agreed, very bad picture.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 52):
And GIG also... eff. Oct 25 daily A343 to GIG, daily A332 to GRU

This was the right move, I was surprised GIG was not along with GRU in the A343 deployment.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 52):
My dad loves the A332 business product.

The business product of the A332 and A343 is the same, the seats are the same, the A343 have IFE on business class (according to your information Y class was not updated with the IFE, which I am surprised, especially because they are used for trunk routes). Overall, we know TAP is not among the best on Y or C, but it does have extremely competitive fares.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 52):
Agree about LAD that see even 3 daily A343, not sure about the others...
Not only because of stronger business demand. The A343 is not so good in performance as the A332 and for sure is indicated for longer fligths rather than shorter ones. I'm sure the A332 is at least 15% more efficient than the A343.

TAP has now a strong cargo agreement with TAM, which explains why TAP decided to use the A343 in GRU (and now also in GIG according to your info). In addition, the A343 also has more business capacity.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-21 07:51:05 and read 4034 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 53):
This was the right move, I was surprised GIG was not along with GRU in the A343 deployment

As i mentioned, the A332 is more friendly to passengers.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 53):
according to your information Y class was not updated with the IFE, which I am surprised, especially because they are used for trunk routes

I don't know if A343 Business is AVOD, i know there's no PTV (and for consequence AVOD) on Y
Better to use a picture:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn44/SaraM_2008/HPIM1137.jpg

And it's very difficult to update IFE to a PTV on Y.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 53):
TAP has now a strong cargo agreement with TAM, which explains why TAP decided to use the A343 in GRU (and now also in GIG according to your info). In addition, the A343 also has more business capacity.

Again Hardi, it doesn't explain because it's just 2x weekly. If they have such demand because of cargo and business, GRU would be an A343 daily station and they send A332's to LAD. The agreement is probably something that might produces results in the future, but not just a few days after is announced.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-21 08:01:08 and read 4024 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 54):
And it's very difficult to update IFE to a PTV on Y.

KLM has updated IFE/AVOD system for its entire MD-11 and B747 fleet, and it is a sizeble fleet.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 54):
I don't know if A343 Business is AVOD, i know there's no PTV (and for consequence AVOD) on Y
Better to use a picture:

Horrible Y class. I was not aware TAP A343 had not been updated and I am very surprised. I do not know how TAP is trying to compete with such outdaded product, perhaps in LAD where there is too much restriction in place. In markets such as GRU and JNB this will certainly scare many pax. But then TAP focus is on low yielding market.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 54):
Again Hardi, it doesn't explain because it's just 2x weekly. If they have such demand because of cargo and business, GRU would be an A343 daily station and they send A332's to LAD. The agreement is probably something that might produces results in the future, but not just a few days after is announced.

It does help. For example, AF is using the B77W in GRU twice a week, it is all part of airline's strategy trying to maximise profit. If the A343 was not part of TAP fleet planning it could well send it to FOR/NAT/SSA/BSB for example.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-21 08:07:35 and read 4020 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 50):
TAP announced today a loss of EUR 229 million with VEM (Varig Engenharia e Manutenção). VEM has 3,000 staff.

This doesn't add up. The news I read today said that TP lost EUR 280 million in 2008, of which EUR 33 million were attributed to VEM. According to the same news, VEM is currently losing EUR 212 thousand per day.
http://jn.sapo.pt/PaginaInicial/Econ...a/Interior.aspx?content_id=1207673
Regarding the A340, I believe that really soon we will not see it on routes to Brazil. This is due to increased frequencies and demand to the African destinations, mainly MPM, LAD, and JNB.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-21 08:17:53 and read 4013 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 56):
VEM is currently losing EUR 212 thousand per day.
http://jn.sapo.pt/PaginaInicial/Econ...07673

The numbers do add up. VEM's loss was EUR 229 million since 2005 which was the year VEM was acquired by TAP as follows:

2006 loss of US$ 208 million
2007 loss of US$ 47 million
2008 loss of US$ 33 million

TAP expects VEM to make a profit of US$ 12 million in 2009, I personally doubt it, but results do show a steady improvement over the last years.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 56):
Regarding the A340, I believe that really soon we will not see it on routes to Brazil. This is due to increased frequencies and demand to the African destinations, mainly MPM, LAD, and JNB.

TAP will use the A343 in routes with more demand (pax, premium and cargo), no doubt about it.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Offloaded
Posted 2009-04-21 08:31:43 and read 4010 times.

On the OPO question, I think OPO is simply too close to LIS. TP operate up to 11 flights a day each way between OPO and LIS. TP fares are common rated (applies to FAO too). Good road and rail links.

TP does operate OPO GRU and OPO RIO direct, both 2x a week with a 332. (Codeshared with JJ).

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-04-21 08:49:08 and read 3994 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 57):
The numbers do add up. VEM's loss was EUR 229 million since 2005 which was the year VEM was acquired by TAP as follows:

Sorry, i took your previous comment to indicate a loss for 2008, and not a loss since aquisition.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 57):
TAP will use the A343 in routes with more demand (pax, premium and cargo), no doubt about it.

The overnight flights will attract more business class passengers. They can't afford to park the A340's all day without impacting their African "expansion" which is to begin in June. Now more than ever it makes sense to add more business class seats to the A332's which I believe will be the only aircraft serving Brazil. At the very least they should consider having a small subfleet of A332's with a larger business class section which would make these interchangeable with the A340's when demand requires it.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-21 09:03:16 and read 3983 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 59):
The overnight flights will attract more business class passengers. They can't afford to park the A340's all day without impacting their African "expansion" which is to begin in June. Now more than ever it makes sense to add more business class seats to the A332's which I believe will be the only aircraft serving Brazil. At the very least they should consider having a small subfleet of A332's with a larger business class section which would make these interchangeable with the A340's when demand requires it.

I think TAP fleet should remain as it is, no introduction of more business seats. Due to the market downturn yields have gone down and airlines are having a hard time to fill their premium cabins. TAP has the perfect configuration for the current market scenario (small C, big Y), even with red-eye flights. TAP fare which are also lower than competition can help to go through the current difficult year. The red-eye operation will certainly boost TAP position.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 59):
Sorry, i took your previous comment to indicate a loss for 2008, and not a loss since aquisition.

I did not say the financial loss related to 2008, but agree I was not clear enough. Sorry.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-21 11:40:32 and read 3936 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 55):
KLM has updated IFE/AVOD system for its entire MD-11 and B747 fleet, and it is a sizeble fleet.

It's not easy neither cheap, and TP use their resources a lot. KL probably has better conditions to park one aircraft after the other.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 55):
It does help. For example, AF is using the B77W in GRU twice a week, it is all part of airline's strategy trying to maximise profit. If the A343 was not part of TAP fleet planning it could well send it to FOR/NAT/SSA/BSB for example

Difficult to say Hardi, and it's not so easy as it seems to be. Can we say that CDG-GRU strong days of operations are Sunday and Tuesday ? And that GRU-CDG best days are Monday and Wednesdays ?
I agree it's to maximize profit, but just because the days AF offer the 77W out of GRU, they do not offer currently the A332. So it's all about fleet management, the same way as TP.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-25 08:50:25 and read 3679 times.

According to news report TAP expects to repeate the 2008 results in 2009 and even increase traffic to Brazil in +5%.

http://economia.uol.com.br/ultnot/lusa/2009/04/25/ult3679u6531.jhtm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 61):
I agree it's to maximize profit, but just because the days AF offer the 77W out of GRU, they do not offer currently the A332. So it's all about fleet management, the same way as TP.

This was my point, airlines are fully aware of fleet deployment so by using the A343 to selected destination TAP knows where the aircraft will extract better results.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-25 09:00:44 and read 3670 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 62):
This was my point, airlines are fully aware of fleet deployment so by using the A343 to selected destination TAP knows where the aircraft will extract better results.

I don't think so, your point was just business demand. I just tried to show there's more than just business demand, and if it's so strong, TP for sure would fly the A343 daily to GRU and A332 to LAD. That's not the case.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 62):
According to news report TAP expects to repeate the 2008 results in 2009 and even increase traffic to Brazil in +5%

Unless they expect a huge increase on load factor, I don't know how they expect that with around 15% less seats available compared to previous year and the first quarter showing numbers down by 15-25%

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-25 09:41:39 and read 3650 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 63):
I don't think so, your point was just business demand. I just tried to show there's more than just business demand, and if it's so strong, TP for sure would fly the A343 daily to GRU and A332 to LAD. That's not the case.

Lipe, pls see my quote below. I said demand (pax, premium and cargo).

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 57):
TAP will use the A343 in routes with more demand (pax, premium and cargo), no doubt about it.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LatinThug
Posted 2009-04-26 15:04:48 and read 3497 times.

Good evening guys, I have two questions.


Isnt it going to be a LONG wait at LIS for pax arriving from Helsinki, Moscow and Warsaw for the connections to Brazil ? Pax from these cities arrive in the morning yet the flights to GRU/GIG/BSB depart after 2300 !!

Or have I read the timetables wrong -- can someone enlighten me on this please !!

the second question (slightly off-topic), I read in a previous post that TAP could switch NAT operations to an A319/A320 instead of the current A330. Whats the feasability of this happening?

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: C010T3
Posted 2009-04-26 17:29:06 and read 3455 times.



Quoting LatinThug (Reply 65):
Isnt it going to be a LONG wait at LIS for pax arriving from Helsinki, Moscow and Warsaw for the connections to Brazil

Those flights were created in order to feed the network to the Northeast AFAIK.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-26 21:58:31 and read 3412 times.



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 66):
Those flights were created in order to feed the network to the Northeast AFAIK

As well as previous operations to GIG/GRU/BSB. The fact is, in the case of GIG and GRU, TP can rely on Portugal and just a few connections. BSB is another story, as it demands more connections for sure.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: C010T3
Posted 2009-04-26 22:12:02 and read 3406 times.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 67):
As well as previous operations to GIG/GRU/BSB. The fact is, in the case of GIG and GRU, TP can rely on Portugal and just a few connections. BSB is another story, as it demands more connections for sure.

I meant that the focus is on flying tourists to the beaches in the Northeast.

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-27 00:25:15 and read 3380 times.



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 66):
Those flights were created in order to feed the network to the Northeast AFAIK



Quoting LatinThug (Reply 65):
Isnt it going to be a LONG wait at LIS for pax arriving from Helsinki, Moscow and Warsaw for the connections to Brazil ? Pax from these cities arrive in the morning yet the flights to GRU/GIG/BSB depart after 2300 !!

As mentioned above, HEL, Moscow and Varsaw will serve to feed traffic to Northeast Brazil since they already have excellent connections to GRU and GIG anyway with LH, AF, BA, LX, KL, etc. Currently there is even a weekly charter flight operating HEL-FOR by Finnair.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 67):
The fact is, in the case of GIG and GRU, TP can rely on Portugal and just a few connections. BSB is another story, as it demands more connections for sure.

Lipe, you are right in your point. But TAP does not rely only on a "few" connections to GRU/GIG/BSB. I think more than 50% of TAP traffic to these destinations are from outside Portugal and Brazil. Brazil makes 20% of the traffic and Portugal another 25%.

Your point about BSB is relevant and I do agree that GRU/GIG rely less on connections as compared to the other destinations TAP serves in Brazil. But the fact is that BSB/GRU/GIG will still be well connected to major European destinations, only secondary destinations will "lose" their connection but as I said above this will be more than compensated by attracting more pax due to better red-eye schedule.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Andaman
Posted 2009-04-27 02:51:02 and read 3333 times.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 69):
Currently there is even a weekly charter flight operating HEL-FOR by Finnair.

Yes AY operate holiday charters to FOR and REC from HEL, via LPA in winter. Finns love their winter breaks in sun, hopefully TP is able to show nice deals to Brazil, the scheduled service beats the cramped charters anytime.
The Portuguese holiday destinations like Algarve, Madeira and Cabo Verde are rather well served from HEL by the AY Leisure and other charter operators, but I hope TP will find the right markets in Finland.

[Edited 2009-04-27 03:01:55]

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: Hardiwv
Posted 2009-04-27 03:06:57 and read 3322 times.



Quoting Andaman (Reply 70):
Yes AY operate holiday charters to FOR and REC from HEL

Thanks for confirming my information, AY deploys the B757 HEL-FOR/REC.

Quoting Andaman (Reply 70):
Finns love their winter breaks in sun, hopefully TP is able to show nice deals to Brazil



Quoting Andaman (Reply 70):
hope TP will find the right markets in Finland.

I think HEL will be a very interesting market for TAP to explore allowing connections to sunny destination FOR/REC/SSA/NAT.

Rgs,

Topic: RE: TAP To Fly LIS-BSB/GIG/GRU Overnight
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2009-04-27 06:26:07 and read 3261 times.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 69):
Lipe, you are right in your point. But TAP does not rely only on a "few" connections to GRU/GIG/BSB. I think more than 50% of TAP traffic to these destinations are from outside Portugal and Brazil. Brazil makes 20% of the traffic and Portugal another 25%.

Not for GIG and GRU. Both have what the other markets doesn't have: VFR and business with Portugal. If REC and SSA are 20% from Portugal, i believe Rio is closer to 75%. Rio has the largest Portuguese community in Brazil, while Northeast has just a few.


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