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Topic: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-04-19 16:51:26 and read 10473 times.

I remember in Fall 2007, CO announced a major CLE expansion. It was to include about 20 new regional aircraft destinations, and about a dozen new mainline destinations. It would also create almost a thousand jobs for the Greater Cleavland area.

I don't know if any of those routes were announced, but the expansion was canceled do to the Economic Crisis of 2008.

I would like to know the new routes. Maybe someone from CO knows.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Nuggetsyl
Posted 2009-04-19 17:00:07 and read 10445 times.

Word had it that cal wanted to fly cle to ams.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Runway23
Posted 2009-04-19 17:03:48 and read 10440 times.

Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.aviation.com/business/070...ntinental-cleveland-expansion.html

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-04-19 17:24:53 and read 10384 times.



Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 1):
Word had it that cal wanted to fly cle to ams.

That would have been sweet...

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 2):
Is this what you are looking for?

Kind of....I want all the destinations CO wanted to fly from CLE. I think that CO themselves is the only one that may know.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-04-19 17:33:07 and read 10354 times.

Heres a list of 12....these were all launched...

Greensboro, N.C. (GSO) Three times daily March 3, 2008

Omaha, Neb. (OMA) Three times daily March 3, 2008

Savannah, Ga. (SAV) Twice daily March 3, 2008

Birmingham, Ala. (BHM) Twice daily April 6, 2008

Charleston, S.C. (CHS) Once daily April 6, 2008

Green Bay, Wis. (GRB) Twice daily April 6, 2008

Tulsa, Okla. (TUL) Twice daily April 6, 2008

Little Rock, Ark. (LIT) Twice daily May 4, 2008

Memphis, Tenn. (MEM) Twice daily May 4, 2008

Lansing, Mich. (LAN) Three times daily May 4, 2008

Des Moines, Iowa (DSM) Twice daily June 12, 2008

Kalamazoo, Mich. (AZO) Three times daily June 12, 2008

Ottawa, Ontario (YOW)... I don't know the dates

I can't believe CLE couldn't support YOW. Continental Connection flew it out of ALB and never dropped it until the hub was closed.

I'm curious on some of the planned mainline destinations.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-19 18:31:18 and read 10237 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 4):
Heres a list of 12....these were all launched...

Greensboro, N.C. (GSO) Three times daily March 3, 2008

Omaha, Neb. (OMA) Three times daily March 3, 2008

Savannah, Ga. (SAV) Twice daily March 3, 2008

Birmingham, Ala. (BHM) Twice daily April 6, 2008

Charleston, S.C. (CHS) Once daily April 6, 2008

Green Bay, Wis. (GRB) Twice daily April 6, 2008

Tulsa, Okla. (TUL) Twice daily April 6, 2008

Little Rock, Ark. (LIT) Twice daily May 4, 2008

Memphis, Tenn. (MEM) Twice daily May 4, 2008

Lansing, Mich. (LAN) Three times daily May 4, 2008

Des Moines, Iowa (DSM) Twice daily June 12, 2008

Kalamazoo, Mich. (AZO) Three times daily June 12, 2008

Ottawa, Ontario (YOW)... I don't know the dates

I can't believe CLE couldn't support YOW. Continental Connection flew it out of ALB and never dropped it until the hub was closed.

Actually, the restart of LAN and AZO never happened. They were the first casualties of CO's expansion when the economy started to go south. They were scrubbed less than a month before the first flights. DSM was launched on June 12th last year-the same day CO announed that it, and the other destinations (plus ORF, BNA, SAT, AUS and SAN) were to be cut. CO later axed DTW, TOL, CVG, AVP, HPN, JFK and IAD out of CLE as well.

CLE lost almost 1/4 of it's destinations in less than three months.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-19 18:34:51 and read 10216 times.

Almost forgot. As for CLE-AMS, that was a distinct possibility until CO decided to switch from Skyteam to Star. There is talk that CLE-FRA could start as early as 2010 with either CO or LH metal.

Also had heard from a reliable ANET source that a CLE-HNL, at least a few times a week, was in the works for perhaps '10, until the economy tanked.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Lexy
Posted 2009-04-19 18:41:39 and read 10193 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
There is talk that CLE-FRA could start as early as 2010 with either CO or LH metal.

With the switch over to Star Alliance, I could see this on a LH A330 actually. I would think they could get the business traffic they need for the route, but I would love to see some more of the domestic routes they cut last year come back for extra feed.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Boeing727
Posted 2009-04-19 18:48:46 and read 10161 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):

They axed LEX as well...

Boeing727

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-19 18:55:56 and read 10142 times.



Quoting Lexy (Reply 7):
With the switch over to Star Alliance, I could see this on a LH A330 actually. I would think they could get the business traffic they need for the route, but I would love to see some more of the domestic routes they cut last year come back for extra feed.

I would think an A330 too big for that route. It's likely if CO ran it, it would be with a 762.

As for the domestics, some may well come back when things get a little better. I was shocked when ORF and BNA were axed, to be honest. As for the new routes, OMA, OKC, TUL, LIT, DSM, SAV all were doing very well, load-wise, when they were axed.

Quoting Boeing727 (Reply 8):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):

They axed LEX as well...

I knew I missed one somewhere.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-19 19:00:12 and read 10125 times.

GRB was also opened, but closed about 6 weeks after it opened.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
There is talk that CLE-FRA could start as early as 2010 with either CO or LH metal.

I know you like to be optimistic, but CLE-FRA with a 762 would never happen.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-19 19:21:45 and read 10056 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 10):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
There is talk that CLE-FRA could start as early as 2010 with either CO or LH metal.

I know you like to be optimistic, but CLE-FRA with a 762 would never happen.

What else could do it? I don't think a 752 has the range, and anything else would be too large for the market. The 752 is practically on fumes some days going LON-CLE.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Caleeiii
Posted 2009-04-19 19:30:38 and read 10011 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 4):
Birmingham, Ala. (BHM) Twice daily April 6, 2008

Didn't last long. And, it was the second time it was tried. Unfortunate, as several destinations are not adequately accessible with connections through EWR.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-19 19:36:03 and read 9994 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):

nothing that we have...........therefore, I do not see this being a viable route for us right now, even in the JV. There would be other routes, probably even a 2nd EWR-FRA flight, before we would jump on the CLE-FRA wagon. Particularly if we were to codeshare with OS or MS.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-19 19:56:44 and read 9951 times.

CALMSP, do you say that about the 762 because it's a numbers game? If that's it, I think I might agree with you. Until the 787's start coming online, the re-gauge of a lot of flights can't take place. If you think it's simply not capable or something, I might have to disagree with that.

Numbers are the reason that, if it does start in '10, that it could be an LH flight.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Evanbu
Posted 2009-04-19 20:45:29 and read 9859 times.

With oil prices back down, I was hoping in the coming months we would see the resumption of the former routes plus maybe some other cities like CID, FAR, and FSD (streching it) but that appears to be false hope considering summer season is about to start....

BTW, when CO operated DSM-CLE, how were the loads???

Thanks.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-19 20:49:31 and read 9852 times.



Quoting Evanbu (Reply 15):
BTW, when CO operated DSM-CLE, how were the loads???

Started off a little slow, but by the time the flight ceased, the loads were usually very good out of CLE-I was seeing 45-50 people a lot on that flight.

I do think CO panicked a little when it pulled these flights, although no one knew where the price of gas was going at the time. I think CO should look at bringing some of them back in '10 if they can. The one I wouldn't bring back, at least with an RJ, would be GSO. The loads on that were always pretty terrible.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-04-19 23:41:16 and read 9698 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
I don't think a 752 has the range

DL plans on CVG-AMS (One nm longer than CLE-FRA) with a 757. Is it the engine difference (Pratt vs Rolls) or does DL limit the loads?

A couple of other routes that CO announced but never operated were PDX and YHM about 10 years ago. YHM would have used E-120's I believe. Portland was probably one of the unannounced mainline routes planned for the last expansion and maybe Sacramento, as well. CLE O&D to both cities was over 100 a day at the time.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Offloaded
Posted 2009-04-20 04:47:04 and read 9305 times.

In terms of international routes (TATL), does anyone think CLE's close proximity to EWR (i.e. another major CO hub) impedes growth at CLE ?

(Last year I flew LHR IAH SFO // CLE EWR BRU on CO. Nice to fly something different - 764's)

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Flyinryan99
Posted 2009-04-20 07:45:29 and read 8829 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
CO later axed DTW, TOL, CVG, AVP, HPN, JFK and IAD out of CLE as well.

With CO leaving Sky, do you think at least DTW and CVG would come back? I am assuming they were able to cut these since they could codeshare on NW and DL without losing too much.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-20 08:09:21 and read 8742 times.



Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 19):

often wondered that myself...........probably would be best if 3M would bring some more BE1 up to CLE to do the routes.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2009-04-20 08:16:23 and read 8704 times.

It absolutely amazed me how much Larry Kellner was pimping CLE as the next massive buildup...only to pull the rug out from under them. I know the economy went to the crapper, but the signs were there before the expansion was announced, yet they chose to go through with it anyways.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-20 08:20:57 and read 8693 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
CALMSP, do you say that about the 762 because it's a numbers game? If that's it, I think I might agree with you. Until the 787's start coming online, the re-gauge of a lot of flights can't take place.

Well, there's at least the potential to get the 764 from EWR-FRA if LH takes over the route. That could trickle down to a 762 being available for CLE-FRA... if that's what CO wanted to do with a single available widebody.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-04-20 08:33:56 and read 8655 times.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 20):
often wondered that myself...........probably would be best if 3M would bring some more BE1 up to CLE to do the routes.

3M's stock (symbol GIA) has tripled since its December low and they have stated in SEC filings that the CLE routes are profitable. Their 10-K states that they are looking at aircraft acquisition opportunities, additional codesharing, as well as "airline" acquisitions. Presumably they are looking at very small airlines. Their largest stockholder is Wash DC suburb-based Daniel Abramowitz and his small cap fund, which could be a source of additional financing.

Whether they further expand CLE flying will probably depend on their acquisition of additional Beeches and the desires of CO, which has the right to a directorship, to buy 10% of their stock, and to review most major corporate decisions.

If they do expand in CLE, it would probably not come before the summer of 2010. I guess it's possible that they could switch a few planes between summer in CLE and winter in Florida this year, but any such action probably would have been announced by now.

Just my opinion; their stock has been one of my better ideas of late.  

Edited for grammar

[Edited 2009-04-20 08:43:12]

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-20 09:12:59 and read 8482 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):

I love how everyone is so optimistic about widebodies in CLE!!  Silly

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Joeman
Posted 2009-04-20 10:40:10 and read 8164 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 24):
I love how everyone is so optimistic about widebodies in CLE!!

So?

As long as CO gives CLE its steady diet of expansion "wishes" soon followed by coincidental conditions that prohibit or create reductions, possibilities will be pondered.

CLE recognizes the position of IAH and EWR, but is hardly star struck.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Highflier92660
Posted 2009-04-20 11:24:14 and read 8279 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 24):
I love how everyone is so optimistic about widebodies in CLE!!

I wonder if those people secretly chuckling over Cleveland's lack of international wide body service are referring to airline economics or are actually thinking more along the lines of : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4diS3khW-5k

No, there's no surf in Cleveland.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Greenair727
Posted 2009-04-20 11:49:36 and read 8172 times.

For CO's 4/10/09 upload to OAG, CLE-LHR (as well as a few other seasonal CO routes) was made year-round daily (previously ended 9/2/09). As CO made no such announcement and you can't book a CLE-LRH nonstop in say, October, on their website, it may well be an error. Anyone know if, by chance, its not [hopefully] an error?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Runway23
Posted 2009-04-20 13:21:56 and read 7833 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 4):
Ottawa, Ontario (YOW)... I don't know the dates

I can't believe CLE couldn't support YOW. Continental Connection flew it out of ALB and never dropped it until the hub was closed.

IIRC they launched CLE-YOW sometime in October/Nov 2007.

Problem YOW-CLE had in my opinion was that it pretty much mirrored CO's flight times to EWR (flights were on the ground when a EWR flight was on the ground too).

The flight was kind of slow to start but in the end had decent loads. I always questioned why CO launched YOW-CLE over upgauging equipment from EWR.

But then I thought NW were nuts to launch MSP-YOW 1x daily instead of make DTW-YOW 4x daily.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: SANFan
Posted 2009-04-20 14:12:06 and read 7661 times.

What I'm kind of surprised at is this summer's "seasonal" flights that didn't even return. My example, needless to say, is CLE-SAN which has operated the last couple of years in the summer; I was hoping that, with the announced CLE expansion, it might become permanent. Not only did it NOT become year-'round, but it didn't even return this summer. How many other summer-only routes didn't surface in 2009? Can anyone split those out?

This alone confirms to me that CLE has in fact taken a pretty major hit by CO...

bb

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Joeman
Posted 2009-04-20 14:22:49 and read 7632 times.



Quoting SANFan (Reply 29):
What I'm kind of surprised at is this summer's "seasonal" flights that didn't even return.

This alone confirms to me that CLE has in fact taken a pretty major hit by CO...

Very major Indeed...the reductions of service were heavily weighted toward CLE regardless of how overall percentage numbers are manipulated for public consumption.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2009-04-20 15:46:18 and read 7388 times.

Like many, I usually tend to compare CO @ CLE with DL @ CVG and unlike DL @ CVG, I don't see an array of CO international leisure destinations out of CLE. On CO website route map, only CUN and NAS (SJU seasonal) have flights from CLE.
I would expect MEX, MBJ, BZE (big if but...), SJO (or LIR), GCM, AUA and PUJ to be able to support once per week weekend service.
Other thing, is that given CO still close relation with CM, CO hasn't thought of a CLE-PTY Saturdays and PTY-CLE Sundays, fitted to CO CLE and CM PTY hub hours to take low-yield seats out of the flights between PTY and IAH/EWR. Well if DL hasn't given CVG-PTY a thought at least for December/January, doubt CO would with CLE-PTY.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-04-20 15:56:52 and read 7330 times.

Quoting Offloaded (Reply 18):
In terms of international routes (TATL), does anyone think CLE's close proximity to EWR (i.e. another major CO hub) impedes growth at CLE ?

Definitely, and not just for international.

The truth is that for the most part, CLE handles the exact same traffic flows that EWR does, only with fewer flights, smaller planes, and a much smaller and weaker local market.

In my personal opinion - and I know many will scream about this - I don't really think CLE would even exist as a hub any longer if it wasn't for EWR being as capacity-constrained (gates, airfield and airspace) as it is.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 21):
It absolutely amazed me how much Larry Kellner was pimping CLE as the next massive buildup...only to pull the rug out from under them.

It makes sense, though.

The local Cleveland market could never support nonstop service to many if not most of the markets it serves. For example, I highly doubt that the local Albany-Cleveland market could ever justify even one, let alone four, daily flights if not for the hub. There are bigger markets out there in just as good if not better strategic locations that get less hub air service than CLE.

The bottom line is that CLE is a shrinking market (demographically and financially), in an economically depressed location, serving a declining region of the country. So it's only logical that when the economy hits the skids, the first place they would cut would be their smallest, weakest hub and retrench to their bigger, stronger hubs serving bigger, stronger markets.



[Edited 2009-04-20 15:58:23]

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-04-20 16:28:29 and read 7224 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):

HNL would have been sick.

Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 27):

Hope not, sure as hell rather connect through CLE than Ewr.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Citation501SP
Posted 2009-04-20 16:53:07 and read 7164 times.

The CLE-SEA route that is Seasonal now was supposed to be a year round daily during this build up at SEA. When it is the Seasons it operates its a great option than running the gauntlet of EWR.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CO58
Posted 2009-04-20 17:13:53 and read 7126 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
There is talk that CLE-FRA could start as early as 2010 with either CO or LH metal.

Does the schedule and planning department know at CO know about this?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Also had heard from a reliable ANET source

Please do tell which member?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
that a CLE-HNL, at least a few times a week, was in the works for perhaps '10, until the economy tanked.

Again, does anyone in the planning department know about this?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
As for the new routes, OMA, OKC, TUL, LIT, DSM, SAV all were doing very well, load-wise, when they were axed.

Loads have exactly what to do with profit now?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Well, there's at least the potential to get the 764 from EWR-FRA if LH takes over the route.

Now why would CO give up one of its prized routes even if they have ATI with LH? Why did CO start IAH-FRA on their own metal rather than letting LH go double daily? That would have solved the issue.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 24):
I love how everyone is so optimistic about widebodies in CLE!!

Well they can dream, only the people at Smith Street know what the real plans are for CLE.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-20 17:56:20 and read 7079 times.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
A couple of other routes that CO announced but never operated were PDX

We did run that route for about 5 days around Thanksgiving a few years back, with a 738. And it was absolutely PACKED. I worked it every night we ran it. That was one of the mainlines that was planned for this year, if I'm not mistaken.

Quoting Offloaded (Reply 18):
In terms of international routes (TATL), does anyone think CLE's close proximity to EWR (i.e. another major CO hub) impedes growth at CLE ?

i

Absolutely. CLE is the last in line for any TATL. I don't like it, but I certainly understand it. EWR and IAH are much larger markets, and they come first. CLE comes last.

Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 27):
For CO's 4/10/09 upload to OAG, CLE-LHR (as well as a few other seasonal CO routes) was made year-round daily (previously ended 9/2/09).

Far as anyone can figure, that is incorrect. I'm at work right now, and looking at the computer, and there's nothing in availibility beyond the end of seasonal service.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: N766UA
Posted 2009-04-20 18:41:46 and read 7040 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
There is talk that CLE-FRA could start as early as 2010 with either CO or LH metal.

CO dropped CLE-CDG after 1 season; why does anyone think FRA would be viable? There's just no reason for this route, even with the entrance to star. Int'l jets are just better utilized elsewhere.

Start small, try to get floridian or west coast flights that run year round before you go for int'l carrier rumors.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-20 18:48:36 and read 7006 times.



Quoting CO58 (Reply 35):
Now why would CO give up one of its prized routes even if they have ATI with LH?

Easy answer to that question: CO needs all the widebody capacity it can find. LH doesn't utilize their widebodies so much.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Joeman
Posted 2009-04-20 19:05:29 and read 6982 times.



Quoting CO58 (Reply 35):
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 24):
I love how everyone is so optimistic about widebodies in CLE!!

Well they can dream, only the people at Smith Street know what the real plans are for CLE.

If it pleases the elite, the same plans that have been developing since the new runway was built unless it was built simply to add expense for the other shrinking carrier presence as well.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-20 20:23:39 and read 6914 times.



Quoting N766UA (Reply 37):
Start small, try to get floridian or west coast flights that run year round before you go for int'l carrier rumors.

Sorry, but that talk is coming from more than just employee rumors, N766UA. It is being considered.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: AlitaliaDC10
Posted 2009-04-20 20:57:52 and read 6886 times.

At the time of the AZ/CO alliance in the early '90s a CLE-FCO and IAH-FCO non-stops were considered but never eventuated.

I still love the dual livery CO/AZ DC10-30...I was lucky enough to have flown on it BizFirst in 1995 EWR-FCO...remember that the check-in was dedicated to either AZ or CO depending on which flight code you were booked on (don't this that happends today on codeshares since you only check-in with the operating carrier).

Everything on board was co-branded with both AZ/CO "Alliance logo" - menus and service items also featured both a mix of AZ and CO china and cuttlery. Even the onboard safety video was modified to announce it as a joint AZ/CO service with the co-branded logo.

Still have my menu and boarding pass for that - excellent service from CO. Hope to fly them soon one day.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CO58
Posted 2009-04-20 21:47:14 and read 6836 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
Easy answer to that question: CO needs all the widebody capacity it can find. LH doesn't utilize their widebodies so much.

That's the reason? Airlines don't go giving away routes to their alliance partners especially between two large hubs, NW/KL and AF/DL may be the sole exceptions. But I got ask, why give up EWR-FRA when you can just not start IAH-FRA? That free's up an aircraft right? CO has done their homework on what works and what doesn't and it been decided that FRA stays on CO metal for the time being. That is not to say MUC isn't up for discussion though.

Quoting Joeman (Reply 39):

If it pleases the elite, the same plans that have been developing since the new runway was built unless it was built simply to add expense for the other shrinking carrier presence as well.

Maybe in time CLE may see a widebody. However if CO has a free widebody, there is a long list of destinations to be served out of IAH or EWR before Cleveland.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):

Sorry, but that talk is coming from more than just employee rumors, N766UA. It is being considered.

Employees, specifically people who work in Continental's Schedule/Planning department in Houston know better than almost anyone else out there what the plan is for Continental. Interacting with these people on a daily basis, I can assure you that at the end of the day they make the best decision possible for the airline. There is a reason Continental has been so successful till now, they don't make decisions based on a hunch. They do their homework and pick what will likely have the best outcome.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-04-20 22:44:27 and read 6816 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
The local Cleveland market could never support nonstop service to many if not most of the markets it serves.

During conference calls CO has regularly reported that O&D represents close to 60% of its total CLE traffic. That percentage may have declined last summer with the added capacity, but it's probably that high again with the current schedules.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-21 05:20:14 and read 6735 times.



Quoting CO58 (Reply 42):
Maybe in time CLE may see a widebody. However if CO has a free widebody, there is a long list of destinations to be served out of IAH or EWR before Cleveland.

absolutely........that is why sadly, CLE will not see a widebody with CO metal for at least 5-7 years.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Runway23
Posted 2009-04-21 05:48:18 and read 6706 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 44):
absolutely........that is why sadly, CLE will not see a widebody with CO metal for at least 5-7 years.

5-7 years is too long a wait considering what can happen. Airlines can't even manage a year without having to adapt right now with all the market changes.

Let's be blunt and say in 5-7 years there's a greater probability than CLE is no longer a hub than getting widebody service. A merger with UA would eliminate the need for CLE as a hub overnight. Now if CLE's O&D is strong enough to help it make a profit then it might just survive. But in the overall scheme there are bigger markets to serve out there than CLE.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-21 06:53:53 and read 6661 times.



Quoting CO58 (Reply 42):
That's the reason? Airlines don't go giving away routes to their alliance partners especially between two large hubs,

Airlines that have ATI sure do... There's a big difference between alliance partners (for whom your statement is correct) and alliance partners with ATI and revenue sharing (NW/KL, DL/AF, or UA/LH, all of whom freely trade routes).

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CO58
Posted 2009-04-21 07:20:49 and read 6632 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):
alliance partners with ATI and revenue sharing (NW/KL, DL/AF, or UA/LH, all of whom freely trade routes).

I will agree with you regarding NW/KL and to a lesser extent AF/KL, though I hardly call CDG-PHL a major hub to hub for them.

I got ask though about UA/LH? I can't recall them swapping routes like KL/NW. Both UA and LH have always operated side by side in their markets from Germany to the US. On the other hand, UA and LX do have an agreement for ZRH-IAD which is solely operated by UA metal for the time being.

Also don't forget, CO and LH will be starting their ATI from scratch. It will take time for the two to get things sorted out and develope a close relationship. They are not going to have a NW/KL alliance overnight. You need more than "just" ATI to hand over a route to an alliance partner. At end of the day, CO has more value (financially and otherwise) flying EWR-FRA on their own metal than letting LH take over their frequencies. If anything, CO should be increasing their own capacity to FRA rather than dropping it in favor of new routes elsewhere.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-21 07:40:25 and read 6629 times.



Quoting CO58 (Reply 47):
Also don't forget, CO and LH will be starting their ATI from scratch. It will take time for the two to get things sorted out and develope a close relationship.

 checkmark 

Quoting CO58 (Reply 47):
I got ask though about UA/LH? I can't recall them swapping routes like KL/NW.

SFO-MUC is exclusively LH
LAX is all LH metal to Germany
DEN-FRA is exclusively LH
IAD-MUC is exclusively UA

They don't swap crazily like NW and KL have, but they certainly have many of their own routes, and the routes they share (e.g. SFO-FRA, ORD-FRA) tend to have more UA capacity.

Quoting CO58 (Reply 47):
At end of the day, CO has more value (financially and otherwise) flying EWR-FRA on their own metal than letting LH take over their frequencies. If anything, CO should be increasing their own capacity to FRA rather than dropping it in favor of new routes elsewhere.

Do they have more value? The opportunity cost of EWR-FRA for CO is significantly higher than it would be for LH because CO appears to need every widebody it can get its hands on.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-04-21 07:59:41 and read 6622 times.



Quoting Runway23 (Reply 45):
Now if CLE's O&D is strong enough to help it make a profit then it might just survive.

In most years O&D and yields have been strong enough to do that. The problem has been that in balancing CLE's smaller but fairly regular returns against the allure of potentially huge profits elsewhere CLE generally loses the debate.

CLE worked best for CO when the company was awash in aircraft and losing its shirt elsewhere.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Joeman
Posted 2009-04-21 08:19:07 and read 6612 times.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 49):
The problem has been that in balancing CLE's smaller but fairly regular returns against the allure of potentially huge profits elsewhere CLE generally loses the debate.

CLE worked best for CO when the company was awash in aircraft and losing its shirt elsewhere.

That sums up the entire CO CLE issue entirely

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CO58
Posted 2009-04-21 08:33:40 and read 6611 times.

The key word here is "swap," which in my opinion means it was operated by one alliance partner who then stopped flying with their own metal and let the market go on their alliance partners metal.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
SFO-MUC is exclusively LH

Never was operated by United. It has always been a LH metal flight.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
LAX is all LH metal to Germany

Again always been a LH metal flight. UA started their own service for the summer of 08 but that was in "addition" not "instead of."

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
DEN-FRA is exclusively LH

Like SFO-MUC, it has always been a LH metal flight.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
IAD-MUC is exclusively UA

To be honest, I am not sure if LH ever operated with their own metal on this route. However I don't think it was a "swap," the route has always been UA metal.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
and the routes they share (e.g. SFO-FRA, ORD-FRA) tend to have more UA capacity.

  

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
Do they have more value? The opportunity cost of EWR-FRA for CO is significantly higher than it would be for LH because CO appears to need every widebody it can get its hands on.

I got a question about this though. What makes you think the 767 would make more of a profit elsewhere? Assume the next new route on CO's list was EWR-DME, what makes you think taking a plane off EWR-FRA and putting on EWR-DME is going produce a bigger profit?

Truth is, the only people who know the real answer to this question are in downtown Houston. Its something that management at CO are looking into everyday.

[Edited 2009-04-21 08:51:18]

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-21 10:17:14 and read 6544 times.



Quoting CO58 (Reply 51):
Truth is, the only people who know the real answer to this question are in downtown Houston. Its something that management at CO are looking into everyday.

Well, not really, and that's the point. CO hasn't had this option with respect to EWR-FRA yet. That's why it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-04-21 10:33:53 and read 6531 times.

It's probably a coincidence, but since my post above yesterday about Gulfstream, their stock is up another dollar and change on decent but not earthshaking volume. From $1 in December to $4.23 at the moment.

I suspect there may be an announcement of some sort coming. Possibilities: they have sold the money-losing flight academy or they have some sort of expansion agreement with CO which might or might not involve CLE. Logically, however, a steady and growing earnings stream out of CLE would do wonders for them financially. I doubt that the stock would move if they were acquiring somebody else and the volume so far says nobody is buying them.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Fun2fly
Posted 2009-04-21 14:22:33 and read 6412 times.

Couple of thoughts..

As late as 3 weeks ago, Smisek and Kellner said CLE is undersized and will redo their expansion in better times. Really driven by EWR ATC not being fixed w/in 15 years if we start tonight. I don't think they would say that publicly w/o some truth.

CLE>LON and CLE>CDG was not working. Too early to tell if CLE>LHR will work. Ask 90 days post launch. May get a hall pass for 2009 due to economy and try again in 2010.

I think Massey Brown is right on nearly all the time. Figure more Beech's in CLE to fill in some gaps post Skyteam.

Think attacking NW core and single source markets vs. letting them be while "loose" partners in Skyteam in the past. I think the 12-20 cities CO would add at CLE might shift based on this fact. Where is NW king and UA or CO not operating?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cle757
Posted 2009-04-21 14:29:48 and read 6400 times.

I think they axed alot of cities too early including CDG which was doing very well, but the fuel costs at the time were very high.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-21 15:57:12 and read 6359 times.

maybe even see some upgrades on ATL or MSP. We will be losing market share in those cities with the termination of the codeshare.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-04-21 17:16:23 and read 6308 times.



Quoting Fun2fly (Reply 54):
As late as 3 weeks ago, Smisek and Kellner said CLE is undersized and will redo their expansion in better times.

Lets hope that they can keep there word...

Other notices about the CLE hub.

-They only have one club?!!?
-They have ticket offices in IAH,GUM,EWR,HNL, but NOT CLE.
-They cut their Board of Directors in CLE in half

Is this how they treat a hub?!!

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-04-21 17:36:27 and read 6292 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 57):
-They have ticket offices in IAH,GUM,EWR,HNL, but NOT CLE.

CTOs are entirely unnecessary in Cleveland.

Many immigrants - Filipino immigrants in Hawai'i and Guam; Latin American immigrants in Houston and Newark; Portuguese and Eastern European immigrants in Newark - pay for tickets with cash or check, or do not have ready internet access. They need to go to a city ticket office to purchase tickets. Cities like Houston, Honolulu and Newark have large enough such communities that fly on Continental that CTOs are important. Cleveland does not.

Try to find an American Airlines city ticketing office in Dallas or Chicago. Hint: You won't. But you will find them in Miami, New York City, and even Fort Lauderdale.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-04-21 17:46:46 and read 6285 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 58):
Try to find an American Airlines city ticketing office in Dallas or Chicago. Hint: You won't. But you will find them in Miami, New York City, and even Fort Lauderdale.

Not to contradict your point - which is entirely correct - but just a slight addendum: AA actually does have a CTO in the Metroplex, they just don't advertise it. It's in the lobby of their headquarters, and it is open to the public. But your point is entirely correct: ethnic markets with lots of customers who either can't or won't use the internet is where CTOs still exist today, for all of the U.S. carriers. The Fort Worth CTO for AA is only there so the senior officers don't need to send their assistants all the way out to the airport to have ticketing issues resolved!  Smile

[Edited 2009-04-21 17:48:01]

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: N766UA
Posted 2009-04-21 19:08:36 and read 6226 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
Sorry, but that talk is coming from more than just employee rumors, N766UA. It is being considered.

I remember a lot of talk about BA "considering" Cleveland about 10 years ago. In fact, people on this board SWORE BA officials were spending time at the airport, and that they'd met them out on the observation deck. "Oh, I talked to a guy from BA today! They're definitely planning to fly here!"

 Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-21 19:55:11 and read 6212 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 57):
-They only have one club?!!?

...as do many smaller hubs (MEM, SLC, STL, LAX).

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-21 20:42:52 and read 6168 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 57):
-They have ticket offices in IAH,GUM,EWR,HNL, but NOT CLE.

CO closed most of it's CTO's in most locations. The advent of online booking engines make them pretty obsolete these days.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Ncflyer
Posted 2009-04-22 10:35:14 and read 6008 times.

CLE757 hit the nail on the head, why doesn't CO ever give anything at CLE a chance to perform? To introduce a route and expect to nail it from day 1, I just can't imagine that happens very often. Not only CDG, but also so many of the domestic markets that seemed to have decent loads, if not yields. Doesn't it take time to build up the yields? Get customers knowing that CO flies a market like BHM-CLE, and once they're used to it, gradually take steps to increase the yields. How can a hub perform and be taken seriously without service, or only once daily service to major business centers like BNA, SFO, SEA, DEN, CVG, etc., etc., let alone the midsize markets that are standard fare to most hubs, such as Des Moines, Omaha, SAT, AUS, etc., etc.

DOes anyone know what happened to the tax incentives from the state of OH to make terminal improvements at CLE? As I recall the state gave money which was likely to be used to expand the meet and greet area as well as FIS.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-04-22 10:57:39 and read 5993 times.



Quoting Fun2fly (Reply 54):
Too early to tell if CLE>LHR will work. Ask 90 days post launch. May get a hall pass for 2009 due to economy and try again in 2010.

According to today's earnings conference call, it's more complicated than that. Kellner said that the 2009 CLE-LHR slot was obtained from an unnamed airline that wants it back next year. Whether CLE-LHR operates in 2010 depends not just on performance in 2009 but also on getting another slot pair for 2010.

In the way of not-too-bad news, CLE's Q1 loads held up better than EWR's and IAH's by a small amount.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Joeman
Posted 2009-04-23 07:24:40 and read 5784 times.



Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 63):
why doesn't CO ever give anything at CLE a chance to perform?

I agree, same old, same old, which is why my tone about CO CLE is normally skeptical.

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 63):
DOes anyone know what happened to the tax incentives from the state of OH to make terminal improvements at CLE? As I recall the state gave money which was likely to be used to expand the meet and greet area as well as FIS.

This question has been tossed out on this forum a lot and never answered...

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 64):
Whether CLE-LHR operates in 2010 depends not just on performance in 2009 but also on getting another slot pair for 2010.

In the way of not-too-bad news, CLE's Q1 loads held up better than EWR's and IAH's by a small amount

Here we go again.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Fun2fly
Posted 2009-04-23 07:33:27 and read 5777 times.

I think things will be different for CO at CLE because of drastically improved relations between Mayor Jackson, Ricky Smith and the CO CLE and Corporate team. That is certainly something they never had between Mok and White/Campbell. The past may not be predictive of the future is all I'm saying, but the use of a plane on a CLE route must bring greater value than a EWR/IAH route.

Why did CO bring back 2 735's from storage as noted above? One for the DEN accident replacement?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Greenair727
Posted 2009-04-23 12:07:51 and read 5697 times.

Cleveland is on the way back up. Yes, its been hit hard with foreclosures and employment and population losses. But the city has always been a gem of culture and business. Now that everyone’s dollar is stretched thin, Cleveland’s relatively lower cost of living and operating a business will stand out when compared other markets that have been traditionally strong. The city’s building of a new convention center and a medical mart makes it even stronger. In the past few days, there have been quite a few articles on Cleveland.

Wall Street Journal (April 17, 2009)—artists moving from NY and elsewhere to Cleveland: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123992318352327147.html

FastCompany (May 2009)—Cleveland is one the “FastCompanies” for 2009: http://www.fastcompany.com/cities/2009

Crain’s Cleveland Business (April 20, 2009)—an article on Cleveland law firms gaining a lot of business that previously went to more-expensive NY firms for the same quality. [subscription needed to see article online]

Trade Show Week (April 13, 2009)—a deal was signed between Cleveland officials and a Chicago developer to build a permanent medical showroom and convention center in Cleveland: http://www.tradeshowweek.com/article/CA6650246.html

Once the general economy returns, Cleveland will be doing well and I think we’ll see CO return to their CLE expansion plans. Then, hopefully we’ll see these routes year-round:

2010—FRA, CDG
2011—PTY, BRU, MEX
2012—TLV, AMS

[Edited 2009-04-23 12:25:42]

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-23 12:21:35 and read 5676 times.



Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 67):
2010—FRA, CDG
2011—PTY, BRU, MEX
2012—TLV, AMS

2 of the 7 can happen!!

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-04-23 13:56:27 and read 5630 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 68):

Yeah, TLV???!! FRA,CDG,LHR,maybe AMS and PTY

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2009-04-23 14:12:05 and read 5621 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 68):
2 of the 7 can happen!!

Yes, PTY: CO partner airline CM's hub and FRA: Staralliance LH mega-hub. Add assorted Caribbean destinations like MBJ and AUA and probably that'll be CO international expansion out of CLE in the next 2 years.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-23 15:48:20 and read 5575 times.



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 70):
Yes, PTY: CO partner airline CM's hub and FRA

I'm well aware that CO and CM are partners. That said, if CM can't support a flight to Chicago-- a significantly larger and more internationally-oriented market in the same part of the world-- can they really make CLE work even with the CO hub on one end?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2009-04-23 16:02:08 and read 5567 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 71):
That said, if CM can't support a flight to Chicago-- a significantly larger and more internationally-oriented market in the same part of the world-- can they really make CLE work even with the CO hub on one end?

Who said CM can't support ORD, CM hasn't even tried that route yet but it's on their radar. I'm not talking about CM flying to CLE, it's CO flying to PTY from CLE, offering hub connections on both ends, theirs @ CLE and CM's @ PTY. I'm pretty sure CO could do fine with a December/January-only CLE-PTY Saturday afternoon and PTY-CLE Sunday morning operation, both flights timmed to fit CO CLE and CM PTY hub hours, to free premium seats from CO EWR and IAH flights.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Greenair727
Posted 2009-04-23 16:09:47 and read 5560 times.

I think a few days/week per direction would work on CO metal. Cleveland recently signed some trade deal with Costa Rica that would further support his. But, 2travel2know, why are you saying just December/January?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2009-04-23 17:17:05 and read 5521 times.



Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 73):
But, 2travel2know, why are you saying just December/January?

Just to be on the safe side, December and January are the months when seat demand is at its highest, if a route doesn't work those months, most likely it won't work any other time of the year (or course there're exceptions).

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-23 17:20:25 and read 5537 times.



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 69):
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 68):

Yeah, TLV???!!

CLE-TLV HAS been studied a few times, CALMSP. We have a huge Jewish population in Greater Cleveland, and it has been explored. I don't thnk it'll happen, but it has been discussed in the past.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-23 18:12:48 and read 5519 times.



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 72):
Who said CM can't support ORD, CM hasn't even tried that route yet but it's on their radar.

If ORD were going to do better than any existing station, they'd have tried it by now. CM is quite well-managed. They go where the demand is, which apparently isn't ORD. ORD has been on the "radar screen" for some time, but it has not yet gotten further than that.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 72):
I'm not talking about CM flying to CLE, it's CO flying to PTY from CLE, offering hub connections on both ends, theirs @ CLE and CM's @ PTY.

Why would CO do better on the route than CM? If anything, CM might be in a slightly better position due to their lower labor costs. The 73G is almost certainly the right plane for the job.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-04-23 18:15:45 and read 5524 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 76):
The 73G is almost certainly the right plane for the job.

Could a 735/733 do it? I know they used to use them on transcon, but I think they had extra fuel storage. I know CO flys EWR-DEN on a 733, and I think they used to fly SLC on the 733 too.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2009-04-23 19:17:42 and read 5496 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 76):
If ORD were going to do better than any existing station, they'd have tried it by now. CM is quite well-managed. They go where the demand is, which apparently isn't ORD.

CM hasn't started ORD yet because (1) ORD is out of E190 range, CM needs their B737-700 on other routes, (2) ORD might not support daily flights except in Dec-Jan, this means crews would have to stay in the Windy CIty a couple of nights instead of one, and (3) If IAD, JKF arrival and departure times are awful, ORD times are bound to be as bad or worse.
CM has been successful in major Southamerican cities flying at odd hours just because there weren't enough flights between those cites and Latinamerica/Caribbean; That'd not be the case of ORD.
CM at JFK happens to do "less bad" because some PTY-NYC O/D, but CM IAD is struggling, even with CM hub, because the odd hours.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 76):
Why would CO do better on the route than CM?

As per their agreement w/CO, CM won't fly to CO hubs, they don't to EWR, neither will do IAH nor CLE. They do JFK for NYC and the joke is that CM would fly E190 to HOU (airport might get an in-terminal F.I.S. if asked) if they decide to fly their metal to IAH. The other thing, a CM morning PTY-CLE would require the aircraft to remind in CLE overnight for a noon departure to PTY to offer connections at CM's hub. There's no point of flying CM PTY-CLE-PTY if the times would look like the ones for IAD or JFK (none connections available )

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 77):
Could a 735/733 do it?

CO flew EWR-PTY w/B737-500, CLE-PTY has a similar range.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Greenair727
Posted 2009-04-23 19:22:25 and read 5484 times.

2travel2know--do you know if CO and CM are in talks for CO serving CLE-PTY?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-23 19:36:11 and read 5469 times.



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 78):
but CM IAD is struggling, even with CM hub, because the odd hours.

...and that's a route with a lot more bulk than CLE. Yet, for CLE-PTY to have any chance of succeeding, it would have to hook up with the southbound banks.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 78):
As per their agreement w/CO, CM won't fly to CO hubs, they don't to EWR, neither will do IAH nor CLE.

...which is irrelevant. CM doesn't think ORD would do well enough for them to justify starting it. If that's the case at ORD, I don't believe either CM or CO could make CLE work regardless of who actually flies it.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2009-04-23 19:46:35 and read 5462 times.



Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 79):
2travel2know--do you know if CO and CM are in talks for CO serving CLE-PTY?

I can bet that CM hasn't studied CLE and won't do it. Can't guess about CO thinking CLE-PTY w/CM codeshare.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 80):
CM doesn't think ORD would do well enough for them to justify starting it.

I've not gotten any signs that CM won't fly to ORD. Rumors of CM flying to ORD and YYZ have been around since CM started IAD. Maybe CM is waiting to get into Staralliance after CO gets-in and entice UA to fly their own metal IAD-PTY and ORD-PTY, at more attractive times for UA and CM hubs connections?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-04-23 19:52:12 and read 5460 times.



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 81):
I've not gotten any signs that CM won't fly to ORD. Rumors of CM flying to ORD and YYZ have been around since CM started IAD.

No, there are no signs that they won't fly to either ORD or YYZ. But it's clear that ORD is not CM's first priority in the United States, nor should it be.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: 2travel2know
Posted 2009-04-23 21:15:39 and read 5429 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 82):
But it's clear that ORD is not CM's first priority in the United States, nor should it be.

 checkmark 
And now going back to CLE...

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-23 21:43:42 and read 5417 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 75):

........come on now.........we both know this is not true.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Greenair727
Posted 2009-04-24 09:26:16 and read 5326 times.

I also have heard that CLE-TLV was explored before--which is why i mentioned a few posts ago. CLE not only has a large Jewish population, but there are strong business--mostly in technology--links between Cleveland and Israel.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CLE757
Posted 2009-04-24 09:30:28 and read 5322 times.



Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 85):
I also have heard that CLE-TLV was explored before--which is why i mentioned a few posts ago. CLE not only has a large Jewish population, but there are strong business--mostly in technology--links between Cleveland and Israel

This is very true.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-04-24 10:04:47 and read 5300 times.

we've all heard about the proposed review of CLE-TLV..............b/c we all look at this forum 20 hours a day!!

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-04-24 10:12:09 and read 5309 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 84):

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 75):

........come on now.........we both know this is not true.

It's laughable that people continue to think CLE-TLV was being considered. I don't have any inside info on CO or anything, but I refuse to believe CO would consider such a dumb route.

And the size of Cleveland's Jewish community - which is not large - is irrelevant. Jewish communities don't support Tel Aviv service, Israeli communities do.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Thomacf
Posted 2009-04-24 19:49:28 and read 5204 times.

The idea that Cleveland is "coming back" is entirely BS. The city has and is continuing to die. This recession is actually helping it right size into what it really is. The Medical Mart/Conv. center planning has been a complete disaster. NYC is actually in the final stages of approving and finalizing blueprints for the same type of center. No one wants to go to Cleveland 8 months out of year for a convention; try major tourist centers like AZ, MIA, SAN, LAS, etc... And dont say Chicago is cold too. For all those CLE fans that say CHI is cold too, remember Chicago is ideal for conventions and business meetings because of its ideal geographic location and tremendous airline service.

National City is just another example of a major CLE company going away. That whole building will be empty by 2010. This whole idea that the Cleveland Clinic and other area medical institutions are going to bring the city back is a pipe dream. The last time I checked, the Mayo Clinic was much the same in terms of size, reputation and importance in the medical industry and you don't see RST becoming a huge vibrant metropolis because of it. Every major development initiative in Cleveland that has been proposed has failed and rarely gets off the drawing board. The latest joke is the new relocation and expansion of the Port that won't be done until 2050. Brilliant, Great Lakes shipping is booming right now! All of those mega container ships that they think are coming to CLE can't even fit in the St. Lawrence Seaway. But don't worry all that Great Lakes ore still needs to get there for the booming steel industry that died a half century ago.

Growth in OH will continue to be in Columbus. Reputable business leaders don't want to work and be associated with the shady, corrupt and incompetant Cleveland gov't officials which is why companies continue to leave and new ones have never arrived, examples: OfficeMax, Eaton, and Progressive leave the city/stay in the suburbs. There was even a Cleveland business article discussing that because of the terrible business climate, the city may no longer be able to support 3 professional sports teams. If you're Kellner, why would you invest anymore in such a poor market. Not to mention that the city has done nothing in the past 25 to create a world class airport. Many opportunities to address CLE have come and gone. Cleveland should have built a new airport in Medina or Lorain county two decades ago. CO has its niche there now. If new advancements in ATC and operational efficiency can help address congestion at the NYC airports, CO will grow EWR at the expense of CLE. Any merger of CO with another airline and the CLE hub is gone overnight.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-24 20:26:57 and read 5187 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 88):
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 84):

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 75):

........come on now.........we both know this is not true.

It's laughable that people continue to think CLE-TLV was being considered.

I never said it was being considered. But I DO know, for a fact, that CO and the city of Cleveland have both studied the route. On more than one occasion. Routes are considered from time to time, you know.  Yeah sure

It may be laughable, but the route isn't the joke you might think, since, as I said, there is a very large Jewish population in Greater Cleveland.

Quoting Thomacf (Reply 89):
National City is just another example of a major CLE company going away.

To be fair, I think you should have added, it was bought, and didn't just "go away". It was bought out by PNC.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Jetpixx
Posted 2009-04-24 20:37:03 and read 5173 times.

I am originally from CLE and would love nothing more than to see the airport and city survive and thrive.

However, all of these pipe dreams and wishcasting by fans of the area are silly. I come on to read real news, not something that someone wishes for and claims is being considered.

CLE will see one, two flights of TATL service and occasional Caribbean destinations - period. And they're lucky to have that!

I love CO and CLE, but it ain't happening folks. It wasn't happening when the economy was good - and now that it is in toilet, I am surprised that CLE hasn't been pulled down even further. I know, I know...CLE load factors were huge compared to EWR and IAH which saw a decrease. Well, it isn't as hard to fill RJs as opposed to mainline aircraft.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2009-04-24 20:37:14 and read 5171 times.

Didn't CO have plans for CLE-MEX-CLE?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Ncflyer
Posted 2009-04-24 20:47:46 and read 5173 times.

thomacf, phew, don't know what you have against Cleveland.

I think my favorite part of your post is how you praise Chicago as a business location, then say no one wants to work in a shady, corrupt, city. Yeah Chicago is squeaky clean, a paragon of clean city politics!! And if that's not good enough, the state of IL government is even worse. And Columbus? Now there's been no corruption in the state government, none at all, you have to go all the way back a whopping 3 years to a disgraced governor and a state pension investment scandal.

New York is a city that has really kept things moving. Hopefully you like the replacement for the World Trade Center as much as I do-- it's only been 8 years and not a damn thing has happened, in spite of the fact that the whole country rallied behind bouncing back from 9/11 at one point. Maybe a $1.5B Yankee stadium with throngs of overpriced empty seats, and an insult to the stadium it replaced, is your idea of fast paced and wise spending city government. Blue prints are nice, there is zero financing in place for any medical mart in NY, and good luck getting financing in this environment. Personally I'm glad NY likes the idea for a medical mart but has no money to pay for it, it validates the idea.

I'm not saying that Cleveland is on the verge of being the next boom town, it's not, but don't assume the problems in Cleveland are not found in other cities you seemingly look up to. Organizations like Jump Start, BioEnterprise, and (gasp!!) the Cleveland Clinic are making an outstanding effort in cultivating new enterprises.

I know this is an airline forum but I'm tired of the Cleveland negativity that is so pervasive. This is a great city, on the decline due in part to circumstances outside its control (the decline in manufacturing is 50 years in the making), but accelerated by the negative viewpoints of so many people who don't know better.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Fun2fly
Posted 2009-04-25 05:23:13 and read 5119 times.



Quoting Thomacf (Reply 89):
Growth in OH will continue to be in Columbus. Reputable business leaders don't want to work and be associated with the shady, corrupt and incompetant Cleveland gov't officials which is why companies continue to leave and new ones have never arrived, examples: OfficeMax, Eaton, and Progressive leave the city/stay in the suburbs. There was even a Cleveland business article discussing that because of the terrible business climate, the city may no longer be able to support 3 professional sports teams. If you're Kellner, why would you invest anymore in such a poor market. Not to mention that the city has done nothing in the past 25 to create a world class airport. Many opportunities to address CLE have come and gone. Cleveland should have built a new airport in Medina or Lorain county two decades ago. CO has its niche there now. If new advancements in ATC and operational efficiency can help address congestion at the NYC airports, CO will grow EWR at the expense of CLE. Any merger of CO with another airline and the CLE hub is gone overnight.

If this thread is focused on the greater CLE airport, than OMX, Eaton, Progressive, Lubrizol, etc. being located in the suburbs or downtown really does not matter one bit to passenger load factors at CLE or on CO. All those fine corporate business travelers still fly via CLE. They always lived outside of the City of Cleveland anyhow.

With that being said, Mayor Jackson does have a lot of work to do to fill up downtown, it's sad what's going on there w/the loss of several companies.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-25 12:07:59 and read 5053 times.



Quoting Fun2fly (Reply 94):
If this thread is focused on the greater CLE airport, than OMX, Eaton, Progressive, Lubrizol, etc. being located in the suburbs or downtown really does not matter one bit to passenger load factors at CLE or on CO.

Exactly. It DOES hurt the city, proper, because it takes away tax dollars from the city. But it does no damage to the region as a whole.

Quoting Fun2fly (Reply 94):
With that being said, Mayor Jackson does have a lot of work to do to fill up downtown, it's sad what's going on there w/the loss of several companies.

I'm really hopiing the Medical Mart and the new convention center that will not be built will help CLE attract more conventions, and, through it, more business opportinities for Northeast Ohio.

I'm going to be writing a letter soon to Mayor Jackson, the Country commissioners and Ricky Smith, asking them that, now that the MedMart/Convention center is going forward, that CLE should look to a new bold project to help CLE's image-when the IX Center is history, to put in a new, modern airport terminal, parking, rental car area, two hotel complex on that site, with a direct link on RTA to not only Tower City Center, but to the MedMart/Convention Center.

Sadly, CLE isn't that forward-thinking on most things, and it'll be like an ice cube on a hotplaite, but it can't hurt to plant the idea in someone's head. CLE should be planning for a new terminal by 2020, but I don't thnk anyone here has the political will to do it.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Joeman
Posted 2009-04-25 16:27:54 and read 4998 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 95):
CLE should look to a new bold project to help CLE's image-when the IX Center is history, to put in a new, modern airport terminal, parking, rental car area, two hotel complex on that site, with a direct link on RTA to not only Tower City Center, but to the MedMart/Convention Center.

I'm all for it, but let's think federal $$$ under the current economic recovery tactics  Wink

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-25 20:23:39 and read 4937 times.



Quoting Joeman (Reply 96):
I'm all for it, but let's think federal $$$ under the current economic recovery tactics

I agree. Cleveland should seriously look into it. After all, they did get $400 million alone for fixing the Innerbelt bridge over the next few years. What's another billion or so?  Big grin

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-04-25 23:18:42 and read 4894 times.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 90):
as I said, there is a very large Jewish population in Greater Cleveland.

At 81,000, it is nowhere near the size of actually large Jewish communities in cities like LA, Miami, and Philadelphia.

Though "large" is all relative. Some might consider that large.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: N766UA
Posted 2009-04-26 11:53:36 and read 4802 times.

Detroit has the largest Arab population outside of the middle east, and they have only very limited service to Amman. My point is that if somewhere like Detroit, with a massive ethnic population and a huge hub, can't even attract service to those kind of places, why would Cleveland, with a relatively small ethnic base and modest hub, ever have an argument?

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-04-26 17:33:22 and read 4737 times.



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 92):
Didn't CO have plans for CLE-MEX-CLE?

AM applied and got approval..never started.

I forget, I do remember AM applying for that route though, getting it, and not starting it.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 99):
Detroit has the largest Arab population outside of the middle east, and they have only very limited service to Amman. My point is that if somewhere like Detroit, with a massive ethnic population and a huge hub, can't even attract service to those kind of places, why would Cleveland, with a relatively small ethnic base and modest hub, ever have an argument?

Well said

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: STT757
Posted 2009-04-26 18:14:18 and read 4758 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 98):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 90):
as I said, there is a very large Jewish population in Greater Cleveland.

At 81,000, it is nowhere near the size of actually large Jewish communities in cities like LA, Miami, and Philadelphia.

New Jersey which is the third smallest State in the Nation has a Jewish community of 500,000, I honestly think CO would do better with a 3rd daily EWR-TLV flight than to try from CLE or IAH. On a percentage basis New Jersey's Jewish population is 2nd only to New York.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-04-26 18:26:10 and read 4751 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 101):
On a percentage basis New Jersey's Jewish population is 2nd only to New York.

Miami has the most Jews per capita, at 10% of the population. New York is 9%.

Unless you are referring to states, and yes, New Jersey is second with around 5%, Florida is around 4.5%, and New York is around 9%, mirroring New York City.

[Edited 2009-04-26 18:30:47]

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: STT757
Posted 2009-04-26 18:49:15 and read 4718 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 102):
Miami has the most Jews per capita, at 10% of the population. New York is 9%.

Unless you are referring to states, and yes, New Jersey is second with around 5%, Florida is around 4.5%, and New York is around 9%, mirroring New York City.

New Jersey is 5.5% of the population,

The Counties in New Jersey with the largest Jewish populations:

Bergen County 85,000
Essex County (Newark) 76,000
Monmouth County (Where I live) 65,000 10.5% of the population

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-04-26 18:57:26 and read 4708 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 98):
At 81,000, it is nowhere near the size of actually large Jewish communities in cities like LA, Miami, and Philadelphia.

Though "large" is all relative. Some might consider that large.

L.A., Miamia and Philly are all much larger cities than Cleveland, too, is that not right? And, in any respect, it doesn't change the fact that I know that such a route has been studied.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Greenair727
Posted 2009-05-04 14:44:35 and read 4421 times.



Quote:
Just my opinion; their stock has been one of my better ideas of late.

MasseyBrown was giving us good advice back there...


Gulfstream International Group, Inc. Reports Significant Improvement in Operating Income and Net Income for the First Quarter 2009

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla., May 4, 2009 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Gulfstream International Group, Inc. (NYSE Amex:GIA) today reported financial results for the first quarter of 2009. Key points include:


* Operating income was $1,820,000 for the March 2009 quarter,
compared to an operating loss of $1,932,000 for the first quarter
of 2008.

* Net income was $730,000 for the March 2009 quarter, or $0.19 per
diluted share, compared to a net loss of $1,286,000, or ($0.44)
per diluted share, for the comparable quarter last year.

http://www.globenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=164447

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-05-05 11:17:38 and read 4341 times.



Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 105):
Gulfstream International Group, Inc. Reports Significant Improvement in Operating Income and Net Income for the First Quarter 2009

3M had an investors' conference call today here: http://www.taglich.com/conference.htm

It's a fascinating half-hour for anybody who likes the little airlines. Regarding CLE, the CEO hinted at future growth, saying the Midwest held substantial growth opportunities and that CLE is profitable for them, but didn't mention any CLE routes specifically. The expansion examples he cited centered on abandoned hub routes in PIT as well as BUF-ALB. To expand they need more aircraft, with 40 Beeches sitting parked available and "ready to go". He also said 3M's l/f is 60% with break-even at 53% based on their ~40 cent RASM.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: CLE757
Posted 2009-05-05 12:23:26 and read 4304 times.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 106):
3M had an investors' conference call today here: http://www.taglich.com/conference.htm

It's a fascinating half-hour for anybody who likes the little airlines. Regarding CLE, the CEO hinted at future growth, saying the Midwest held substantial growth opportunities and that CLE is profitable for them, but didn't mention any CLE routes specifically. The expansion examples he cited centered on abandoned hub routes in PIT as well as BUF-ALB. To expand they need more aircraft, with 40 Beeches sitting parked available and "ready to go". He also said 3M's l/f is 60% with break-even at 53% based on their ~40 cent RASM.

Thats good news, I think DTW,CVG and TOL will be back.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-05-05 12:52:54 and read 4293 times.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 106):
Regarding CLE, the CEO hinted at future growth, saying the Midwest held substantial growth opportunities and that CLE is profitable for them, but didn't mention any CLE routes specifically. The expansion examples he cited centered on abandoned hub routes in PIT as well as BUF-ALB.

I can't believe there are that many abandoned hub routes in PIT that wouldn't work better from CLE.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2009-05-05 13:09:56 and read 4288 times.

I think the good thing for CLE is that CO has maintained relatively constant levels of service. CVG saw dramatic increases in the early 2000s when Europe, Hawaii, Alaska, Mexico, and the Caribbean came online, but then drastic cutbacks that left the airport with less service than ever before. I'd say PIT (US Airways) and LAS (America West) suffered a similar fate. Seems like CO is committed to a medium size regional hub operation at CLE for the long term.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-05-05 21:58:17 and read 4200 times.



Quoting CLE757 (Reply 107):
Thats good news, I think DTW,CVG and TOL will be back.

Hackett, the CEO, emphasized that 3M intends to avoid competition when possible, which probably means leaving DTW and CVG to DL unless CO offers some guarantees. Under that avoidance criterion, TOL, CRW, and MBS are traditional CLE destinations that might be early choices for a comeback.

Step 1 is buy or lease some planes, however; so watch for that action first.

FWIW, the analyst predicts $6 a share for GIA.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Tommy767
Posted 2009-05-05 22:02:45 and read 4199 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 103):
New Jersey is 5.5% of the population,

The Counties in New Jersey with the largest Jewish populations:

Bergen County 85,000
Essex County (Newark) 76,000
Monmouth County (Where I live) 65,000 10.5% of the population

According to wikipedia Jersey has over 6% and New York state nearly 10%

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2009-05-07 17:08:22 and read 3998 times.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 106):
The expansion examples he cited centered on abandoned hub routes in PIT as well as BUF-ALB. To expand they need more aircraft, with 40 Beeches sitting parked available

That would be great. US only flies 1x on ALB-BUF compared to what 15 daily on US and CO combined a couple years ago. 1x is pathetic, and the times are all messed up the only flight departing to BUF departs at like 1 pm.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: PITrules
Posted 2009-05-07 20:04:44 and read 3914 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 108):
I can't believe there are that many abandoned hub routes in PIT that wouldn't work better from CLE.

Perhaps not better than from CLE, but in addition to some of those already served from CLE?

PIT-MDT/IND/SDF/RIC all come to mind. I didn't listen to the conference call, but I imagine such routes would be under their own code, not Continentals.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Flyinryan99
Posted 2009-05-07 20:12:34 and read 3914 times.



Quoting PITrules (Reply 113):
but I imagine such routes would be under their own code, not Continentals.

Or fly "at risk" like in Florida? They keep the CO code but assume all of the costs.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-05-07 20:18:39 and read 3911 times.



Quoting PITrules (Reply 113):
PIT-MDT/IND/SDF/RIC all come to mind. I didn't listen to the conference call, but I imagine such routes would be under their own code, not Continentals.

That makes sense. IIRC, IND, SDF, and RIC were all cut fairly late from the PIT hub, so I assume they were some of the better performers (though RIC may have just stuck around because AX needed to get crew and airplanes to and from the base).

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: F9fan
Posted 2009-05-07 21:11:24 and read 3895 times.



Quoting Offloaded (Reply 18):
In terms of international routes (TATL), does anyone think CLE's close proximity to EWR (i.e. another major CO hub) impedes growth at CLE ?

The big problem with EWR is that it is at capacity. In fact, of the major interational airports in the northeast corridor, only IAD is not expierencing chronic delays due to facility size.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
The truth is that for the most part, CLE handles the exact same traffic flows that EWR does, only with fewer flights, smaller planes, and a much smaller and weaker local market.

In my personal opinion - and I know many will scream about this - I don't really think CLE would even exist as a hub any longer if it wasn't for EWR being as capacity-constrained (gates, airfield and airspace) as it is.

Agreed.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
The local Cleveland market could never support nonstop service to many if not most of the markets it serves. For example, I highly doubt that the local Albany-Cleveland market could ever justify even one, let alone four, daily flights if not for the hub. There are bigger markets out there in just as good if not better strategic locations that get less hub air service than CLE.

The bottom line is that CLE is a shrinking market (demographically and financially), in an economically depressed location, serving a declining region of the country. So it's only logical that when the economy hits the skids, the first place they would cut would be their smallest, weakest hub and retrench to their bigger, stronger hubs serving bigger, stronger markets.

CLE is about the same size as DEN, yet the latter supports non-stops to LHR and FRA along with a lot of leisure traffic to CUN, PVR, MZT and SJD.

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 45):
A merger with UA would eliminate the need for CLE as a hub overnight. Now if CLE's O&D is strong enough to help it make a profit then it might just survive. But in the overall scheme there are bigger markets to serve out there than CLE.

ORD is in worse shape than EWR in terms of being at capacity! However, as I stated earlier, IAD could get bigger.

Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 67):
The city’s building of a new convention center and a medical mart makes it even stronger. In the past few days, there have been quite a few articles on Cleveland.

If the guys promoting the Tower City site don't sue it into oblivion.

Quoting Thomacf (Reply 89):
The Medical Mart/Conv. center planning has been a complete disaster. NYC is actually in the final stages of approving and finalizing blueprints for the same type of center

But does NYC have the financing in line yet? With the Cleveland project further along, I suspect the NYC medical mart project will go away.

Quoting Thomacf (Reply 89):
Cleveland should have built a new airport in Medina or Lorain county two decades ago. CO has its niche there now.

Uh, what happened to CAK?

Quoting Thomacf (Reply 89):
If new advancements in ATC and operational efficiency can help address congestion at the NYC airports, CO will grow EWR at the expense of CLE. Any merger of CO with another airline and the CLE hub is gone overnight.

Given how long it has taken the FAA to get the new ATC system up and running, don't hold your breath. Another ATC problem looming is that by 2011, all the controlers Reagan hired after the PATCO strike will face mandatory retirement, and they are just now starting to address this issue.

As for the Cleveland economy, this region has been devistated by the manufacturing slowdown. The Ford plant in Lorain closed a couple years ago, and the Crystler plant in Twinsburg will be closing soon. Add to that that it is still very uncertain how GM is doing, and you can see there is a lot of uncertainty about the economy around here. The good news for Cleveland is that the local economy is starting to stabalize, and with the region's focus on health care, there is at least something resembling a plan going forward.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-05-07 22:21:05 and read 3873 times.



Quoting F9fan (Reply 116):
As for the Cleveland economy, this region has been devistated by the manufacturing slowdown.

March (the latest numbers at the BLS) unemployment in Midwestern and Southern MSA's by associated airport:
CLE - 8.7%
CVG - 9.0%
DTW - 14.0%
CLT - 11.4%
RDU - 8.6%
ATL - 9.1%
BUF - 9.2%
STL - 9.4%
MKE - 9.0%
IND - 8.7%
ORD - 9.4%
PIT - 7.6%
MSP - 8.4%

CLE is not suffering disproportionately.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Greenair727
Posted 2009-05-08 10:43:49 and read 3766 times.



Quote:
Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 67):
The city’s building of a new convention center and a medical mart makes it even stronger. In the past few days, there have been quite a few articles on Cleveland.



Quote:
If the guys promoting the Tower City site don't sue it into oblivion.

Such a lawsuit would be pointless, as the developers already said they would not build at Tower City. Killing the project altogether wouldn't benefit them either, as they'll still benefit from the project, as its only two blocks away from Public Square.

Quote:
March (the latest numbers at the BLS) unemployment in Midwestern and Southern MSA's by associated airport:
CLE - 8.7%
CVG - 9.0%
DTW - 14.0%
CLT - 11.4%
RDU - 8.6%
ATL - 9.1%
BUF - 9.2%
STL - 9.4%
MKE - 9.0%
IND - 8.7%
ORD - 9.4%
PIT - 7.6%
MSP - 8.4%

CLE is not suffering disproportionately.

Massey--thanks for that--it should help put things in perspective for all the Cleveland naysayers.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Ncflyer
Posted 2009-05-08 13:54:41 and read 3731 times.

Agreed, it's really not any worse in Cleveland, despite what the naysayers might lead one to believe.

It's a little unfair to compare CLE to DEN. For one, DEN is the "capital" of the mountain west. Cities that are regional capitals, such as ATL, MSP, DEN, SEA have a huge advantage. Secondly, DEN is quite isolated, whereas CLE is very easy driving distance to many other cities, PIT, CVG, DTW, ORD, heck even DCA is only a 6 hour drive, it's very close to here. Driving is bigger competition in Cleveland than it is in most other cities.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: HPAEAA
Posted 2009-05-08 20:36:00 and read 3657 times.



Quoting Thomacf (Reply 89):
Cleveland should have built a new airport in Medina or Lorain county two decades ago. CO has its niche there now.

Why? the airport they have doesn't suffer from capacity constraints (runway or terminal gate space) they've made the improvements to allow passengers to move about the terminal (relocation of A, B, & C Checkpoints) and even built the D concourse... honestly there is plenty of room left to expand the current ops without major cap ex...

Quoting Thomacf (Reply 89):
If new advancements in ATC and operational efficiency can help address congestion at the NYC airports,

Yes, but given the current operational situation in NY, I would hope that even with the upgrades capacity utilization would still be kept in check... there's no reason to spend 3 hours waiting for takeoff..

I love CLE - it's always going to be home.. but honestly they city needs to do something to keep industries there or they'll always loose out to other major MSAs... I hope we can find some better politicians...

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: F9fan
Posted 2009-05-09 06:10:36 and read 3593 times.



Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 119):
It's a little unfair to compare CLE to DEN. For one, DEN is the "capital" of the mountain west. Cities that are regional capitals, such as ATL, MSP, DEN, SEA have a huge advantage. Secondly, DEN is quite isolated, whereas CLE is very easy driving distance to many other cities, PIT, CVG, DTW, ORD, heck even DCA is only a 6 hour drive, it's very close to here. Driving is bigger competition in Cleveland than it is in most other cities.

Good points. DEN also benefits from being closer to the geographic center of the continental U.S. However, in terms of metropolitan area population, CLE and DEN are fairly close, although DEN has been growing while CLE shrinks.

Quoting Greenair727 (Reply 118):
Such a lawsuit would be pointless, as the developers already said they would not build at Tower City. Killing the project altogether wouldn't benefit them either, as they'll still benefit from the project, as its only two blocks away from Public Square.

You're right there. Now, if we can just convince the Tower City site backers of that.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-05-10 09:21:32 and read 3448 times.



Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 120):
Quoting Thomacf (Reply 89):
Cleveland should have built a new airport in Medina or Lorain county two decades ago. CO has its niche there now.

Why? the airport they have doesn't suffer from capacity constraints (runway or terminal gate space) they've made the improvements to allow passengers to move about the terminal (relocation of A, B, & C Checkpoints) and even built the D concourse... honestly there is plenty of room left to expand the current ops without major cap ex...

As someone who has worked at CLE for 22 years now, I cannot disagree more.

Cleveland should take the IX-Cneter, and, once the new Convention Center is built, tear it down, and make a modern, spacious, state-of-the-art terminal, with ever amenity that you can think of. It doesn't have to be as big as EWR, but it should be as attractive on the inside as Terminal C at EWR. CLE, as it is now, is a drab, old, worn-out place, and not a very good first impression for visitors.

By 2020, Cleveland should want a new terminal. Unfortunately, the politicians in the area aren't that forward-looking.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Highflier92660
Posted 2009-05-10 09:43:49 and read 3427 times.

Absolutely Falcon84!!! The IX-Center, the Tank Plant (or whatever other description one places on that monsterous structure eating up valuable acreage at Cleveland Hopkins) should be torn down and a modern mid-field terminal be built in its place. A mid-field terminal greatly enhances efficiency and cuts down on the number of runway incursions. Unfortunately there will always be myopic politicians and others citing the recession and lagging traffic as reasons to maintain the status quo.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2009-05-10 12:22:48 and read 3395 times.



Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 123):
Absolutely Falcon84!!! The IX-Center, the Tank Plant (or whatever other description one places on that monsterous structure eating up valuable acreage at Cleveland Hopkins) should be torn down and a modern mid-field terminal be built in its place. A mid-field terminal greatly enhances efficiency and cuts down on the number of runway incursions. Unfortunately there will always be myopic politicians and others citing the recession and lagging traffic as reasons to maintain the status quo.

I doubt you could build a mid-field terminal here, with the crunch on space. The area that is now the terminal would have to become the cargo/corporate flying area, so I don''t think you could have a terminal splitting runways here. The only way you could do it ,and it would take years, is if the Ford Plant next door was torn down, and then you'd have a lot more room. But, for the sake of our economy, I'd rather see that Ford Plant grow, not die.

You could still build a nice, 85-gate terminal, where everything is fairly close together, or there is use of monorails, or other ways to transport people throughout.

Topic: RE: Planned CO CLE Routes That Never Became
Username: Greenair727
Posted 2009-05-12 16:10:35 and read 3191 times.

It would be great to have the flexibility of two terminals---the IX location as one and the current one as the other, and perhaps with a people mover connecting the two. And perhaps the current terminal could be made smaller if space is required for cargo/corporate. Terminal assignments could be divided by airline (like at, say, JFK) or by using one for foreign carriers & int'l arrivals (of both US and foreign flag carriers) and the other for domestic operations. I know i'll get attacked here for a suggesting the need for such large int'l operations in CLE, but we're talking about the Cleveland of the (near) future!


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