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Topic: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-14 16:52:31 and read 17013 times.

EDIT: I originally wanted to have the title read "Bone Head Airline Ideas..." but chose to revise so now you see where i'm going.

Hello all. Reading through various aviation articles dating to 2006 and back and also reading up on US airline history and their struggle along the way, it surprised me the amount of "clever" ideas that have come our way. Hindsight is always 20/20 and most things do actually look good on paper until, well, 6 months to a year down the road you realize "We really, really shouldn't have went in that direction" if you know what I mean.

I understand this industry is not exactly fluid. What's good this quarter may not be such a good idea 3 quarters later. Nature of the beast but here are a few. Continental Lite, Delta Express, Song (well Song was awesome but Delta realized they can do the same thing under their own operation), More Room in Coach (great for us, not so great for AA and didn't really boost ridership), US charging for water.

This is just a few that I can think of and somewhat major. There are many others to include even things done on crewmember/ staff level that made zero sense, FF programs, etc. I also know the likes of Braniff and Pan Am had their "innovative" ideas.

I'm interested to see what's come and gone in this ever changing industry...

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-05-14 16:54:14 and read 17018 times.

SKYBUS!!!
Man that was stupid.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-05-14 17:08:29 and read 16946 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
SKYBUS!!!

Also my first thought. Wonder if we will see another "Skybus" carrier.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-14 17:14:11 and read 16924 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):

No doubt. That's what makes some of these ideas so "bone head" someone had tried it already and it didn't work or failed MISERABELY.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BrianDromey
Posted 2009-05-14 17:14:18 and read 16921 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
SKYBUS!!!
Man that was stupid.

I dont think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the concept, just the markets they chose.
Now, Independence Air, that was stupid. Low Fares from a high cost airport on 50 seat CRJ's? added to massive repainting and refurbishing costs. They were dead from day one. When the larger aircraft did arrive they did not have enough cash to pay for them and trying to do so sent them over the edge....such a shame.

Brian.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-05-14 17:16:22 and read 16911 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
Continental Lite, Delta Express, Song (well Song was awesome but Delta realized they can do the same thing under their own operation),

And TED, and BA's go. These things never work because they either just fail, or they succeed and siphon traffic from the mainline and get shut down that way.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
More Room in Coach (great for us, not so great for AA and didn't really boost ridership),

I think that this was a legit experiment. They tried it, and found that pax weren't willing to pay extra for the legroom. It didn't work, but I wouldn't classify it as a bone-headed idea.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Wonder if we will see another "Skybus" carrier.

Probably. There is a sucker born every minute after all.

And I thought of another bad idea. America West's 747 service to Hawaii and Aloha Pacific for that matter. Didn't go so hot.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: CFV2
Posted 2009-05-14 17:17:09 and read 16915 times.

Up here, Air Canada has provided a few examples of how not to get ahead in the past decade.

AC's gobbling up of CP, in hindsight, wasn't such a hot business decision.... especially given CP's balance sheet and heavy debt. It wasn't sound, and seemed driven more out of spite than sense; or, greed. It would have been better for Air Canada's bottom line to simply let Canadian Airlines dwindle and downsize, or maybe fail, which seemed pretty much inevitable anyway.

Alas, after they bought CP, Air Canada realized that by taking over most of the market they had inadvertently opened the door to low-cost start-ups, who were grabbing market share at their expense - particularly, WestJet.

Solution? Zip Air, which was a low-cost, airline-within-an-airline, designed to take on WS in the west. It seems to have been a template for Song and Ted's roll-out in the US, in following years;

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2002/09/23/zip020923.html

Zip lasted about two years, and did nothing to stem AC's hemorrhaging of market share to WS.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-05-14 17:23:50 and read 16881 times.



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 4):
I dont think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the concept, just the markets they chose.

That is part of what made it so dumb. You had all of those flights going to CMH, but they wouldn't allow anyone to connect. Plus, while there is a certain segment that will fly on the cheapest fare possible, I'm not convinced that the way to have a successful pizza place is to take the cheese off of the pizza.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 4):
Now, Independence Air, that was stupid. Low Fares from a high cost airport on 50 seat CRJ's?

And ExpressJet. I knew that one was going downhill from day 1. Having a low cost airline on some of the most expensive planes is not a good idea.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Spartanmjf
Posted 2009-05-14 17:29:19 and read 16849 times.

Metrojet at BWI

The great US reservation system transition

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-14 17:50:12 and read 16757 times.

What ever happened to SimpliFares? (not saying it was dumb; just curious) I've heard that while it did raise revenue a bit, especially out of CVG and ATL, it was a little too late as the damage was done by Leo and gang. $5.2B loss in one quarter; OUCH.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: CokePopper
Posted 2009-05-14 18:02:19 and read 16717 times.

Can someone sing a ........S O N G ?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-05-14 18:04:53 and read 16712 times.

Skybus and ExpressJet's branded flying. Hard to conclude which idea was stupider.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/L
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2009-05-14 18:05:20 and read 16721 times.

With regard to fleets -

AA using the A300 on transatlantic

AA acquiring the MD11 altogether. A plane that severely under-performed to their expectations. Hoping it would fly JFK-NRT, AA ended up having to run a short-lived SEA-NRT, as that was seemingly one of the only transpac routes the MD11 could make unrestricted.

DL's attempt to re-hub LAX using a handful of ERJ-145's

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-05-14 18:24:59 and read 16651 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Hoping it would fly JFK-NRT,

Delta used the MD11 on JFK-NRT in the summer of 2001. I don't think they had restrictions on it.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Cws818
Posted 2009-05-14 18:29:05 and read 16628 times.

USAir's Business Select in the early/mid-90s

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2009-05-14 19:03:54 and read 16555 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Plus, while there is a certain segment that will fly on the cheapest fare possible, I'm not convinced that the way to have a successful pizza place is to take the cheese off of the pizza.

Channeling Gordon Bethune? He did, after all, say that "You can make a pizza so cheap that no one will eat it."

It's already been said, but CAL Lite was one of the dumber ideas...

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2009-05-14 19:26:51 and read 16450 times.



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 4):
I dont think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the concept, just the markets they chose.

 checkmark  I agree that the concept was fine. In some markets they were doing great, like PSM. The problem is they went to CMH and GSO and didn't allow you to connect to any other destinations. Not to mention that the man who wrote the business plan had no say in any of the airline's operations.

I think Maxjet was a bad idea. But my main beef with them is when they started service at IAD, they said BOS was going to be added next. However when they said they were going to add it, they didn't. Then Today in the Sky had an article where they said they were "seriously considering" LAS and BOS. LAS was added soon after, but still no BOS. Then they dropped IAD and went out of business altogether. Cheap business class wasn't a bad idea, but serving markets from STD as opposed to LHR or LGW wasn't too bright. Still, the way they handled BOS made me wonder what was going on internally.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-05-14 19:50:55 and read 16382 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
And I thought of another bad idea. America West's 747 service to Hawaii

And, even dumber, the continuation of those HP 747 flights from HNL to Nagoya, Japan.

A couple of other bad ideas going back a little further:

Braniff's unwise transpacific (SEL/GUM/HKG/SIN) and transatlantic (AMS/BRU/FRA/ORY from DFW and BOS) in the late 1970s, when they started flying almost anywhere they could obtain landing rights whether there was any demand or not, and acquired about 10 747s (including a few 747SPs for the Pacific) which mostly flew half empty or worse.

TWA's transpacific service which lasted about 6 years, from 1969 to 1975, also wasn't the brightest idea. Like Braniff a decade later, TWA lacked traffic rights to Tokyo which made it almost impossible to operate profitably. And TW's 707s on the much longer multi-stop route between LAX and BOM via HNL and at least 2 or 3 other stops among Guam, Okinawa, Tapei, Hong Kong and Bangkok, were uncompetitive with other carriers like PA/NW/JL which were operating 747s by the early '70s on the shorter North Pacific routing via Tokyo.. It did make TW a round-the-world carrier for those 6 years, connecting at BOM with their traditional transatlantic routes, but the losses didn't help TW's financial position. They made a deal with Pan Am to drop those routes in exchange for some additional routes to Europe.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Skibum9
Posted 2009-05-14 20:00:00 and read 16353 times.

RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs

AND MORE

RJs

Need I mention Independence Air! And look how fast the 35, 40 and 50 seaters are fading away. Hopefully soon the 70 seaters will go as well.

Whoever the genius was that thought you could make money with these things obviously did not complete their GED. Whoever designed these things must have been recruited from Playskool Toys and continued to believe they were designing for children. And, whoever thought the definition of "regional" was up to a 3 1/2 hour flight must still be working on their 1st Boy Scout merit badge after 30 years of active membership.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Airbear
Posted 2009-05-14 20:01:50 and read 16340 times.

Hi all,

Several short-lived "innovations" come to mind over the years, like... a) CO's Piano Lounges on their early 747's; b) SQ tried installing slot (poker machines for us Aussies) machines on their 747's as an extra revenue raiser ; and more recently, c) inflight internet services such as Connexion: tried for a short tiime by SK and LH that I know of, as well as CX's Netvigator service.

With a bit of luck, the latest trials of inflight mobile phone/sms connectivity will also fail likewise! Who needs it?!!?

Cheers, Airbear

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-05-14 20:06:10 and read 16309 times.



Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 15):
Channeling Gordon Bethune? He did, after all, say that "You can make a pizza so cheap that no one will eat it."

It's already been said, but CAL Lite was one of the dumber ideas...

Pretty much. He's one of the smarter airline guys around. Airlines could help themselves a lot by heeding his quotes over the years.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: OB1504
Posted 2009-05-14 20:07:03 and read 16308 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
And ExpressJet. I knew that one was going downhill from day 1. Having a low cost airline on some of the most expensive planes is not a good idea.

Granted, the business plan was a little more sound than that of Indy Air, since they flew point-to-point "under the radar" of the more established carriers. And they only did that because CO left them with several dozen unemployed ERJs, whereas DH completely cut off all ties with their mainline partners that could guarantee them revenue.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Fghtngsiouxatc
Posted 2009-05-14 20:11:22 and read 16291 times.

US charging for softdrinks! Can't believe no one brought that up. When you're the only airline charging, no one's going to buy! How long did that even last? 2 years?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-05-14 20:12:18 and read 16281 times.



Quoting OB1504 (Reply 21):
Granted, the business plan was a little more sound than that of Indy Air,

Indy Air was a bad and half-baked idea. ExpressJet was just a bad idea. 50 seaters are too expensive for that kind of thing, and some people will go out of their way to avoid them.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Ridgid727
Posted 2009-05-14 20:12:21 and read 16286 times.

In the70's PSA getting L1011's for Intra California Services

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: WhatUsaid
Posted 2009-05-14 20:14:11 and read 16259 times.

Express Jet wasn't a bad idea. The idea was right. Wrong economic environment.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Afterburner
Posted 2009-05-14 20:16:49 and read 18202 times.

LH's idea of NOT putting PTVs on Y-class. Big grin

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: OB1504
Posted 2009-05-14 20:23:52 and read 18122 times.



Quoting Fghtngsiouxatc (Reply 22):
US charging for softdrinks! Can't believe no one brought that up. When you're the only airline charging, no one's going to buy! How long did that even last? 2 years?

I suppose they thought the other legacies would follow suit. Bad call on their part.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Ridgid727
Posted 2009-05-14 20:25:36 and read 18150 times.

Onboard ticketing at HP (in their very early years) & also at People Express

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-05-14 20:32:30 and read 18128 times.



Quoting Ridgid727 (Reply 24):
In the70's PSA getting L1011's for Intra California Services

And ordering them with a lower-deck lounge in what would normally have been the forward baggage/cargo compartment. That lounge made those PSA L1011s very unattractive to other carriers after PSA parked them after their brief period of service. A couple spent quite a while in the desert.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Bohica
Posted 2009-05-14 20:33:54 and read 18067 times.

Glenn Tilton. Need I say anything more?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2009-05-14 20:42:03 and read 18087 times.

I'll thrown in Oasis Hong Kong. Low cost/long haul obviously didn't work. You look at the business model in hindsight, and it looks like something an aviation enthusiast would think of. It's what we wish the airline industry was, but that's not what makes money.

This is a fun thread to read. Plenty of bonehead ideas from the airlines over the years.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Chapavaeaa
Posted 2009-05-14 20:42:32 and read 18103 times.

AA buying Air Cal...and eliminating most of their operation.

AA building up a BNA and RDU hub....and then dismantling them.

AA buying Reno Air and then eliminating most of their operation.

Air Wisconsin (??) starting up a transcon BAE 146 transcon just before the fuel tank AD limiting their range was issued.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Skygirl
Posted 2009-05-14 20:45:36 and read 18019 times.



Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 18):
RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs

For the win!

I'm convinced that one day you are going to see airlines only have mainline flights hub to hub, and rj's going everywhere else. Can we file that under not so great airline ideas that haven't happened yet and will hopefully not last?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-05-14 20:48:03 and read 18015 times.



Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 31):
I'll thrown in Oasis Hong Kong. Low cost/long haul obviously didn't work

Well Air Asia X is trying it!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2009-05-14 20:53:56 and read 17957 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 34):
Well Air Asia X is trying it!

Yep, we'll see if they make it. I like their model better though. No quite as "long haul", and the routes are not so wildly competitive. But, in short order we might be looking back at it the same way! Who knows in this industry.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/L
Username: Jetdudetim
Posted 2009-05-14 21:21:41 and read 17880 times.

Actually, PSA's L1011's were purchased to fly to Hawaii, which they were never awarded.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Vhqpa
Posted 2009-05-14 21:23:02 and read 17933 times.

What about Smintair German airline for Smokers.

QF getting there first 4 A330-200's with lighter floors for SYD-MEL/BNE ops only to be forced to put them on the longer domestic and JQ international flights (which will eventually be going all 787) because the floors won't support their International Business product.

VQ going from a regional to a LCC on SYD/MEL/BNE in direct competition with AN, QF and DJ. QF ended up buying VQ, canned their regional network and used their 717's on their own regional network under the "Qantaslink" banner.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):

These things never work because they either just fail, or they succeed and siphon traffic from the mainline and get shut down that way.

Not always QF launched JQ which went on to serve markets that QF didn't make decent profits and JQ brings in very impressive profits for Qantas Group.

And it's not just Qantas SQ owns almost half of Tiger Aviation which does well in Asia (not so sure about Australian ops though)

Air New Zealand had SJ for years which actually went on to form the base of Zeal320 which continues to operate NZ's A320 ops with full NZ branding

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: OB1504
Posted 2009-05-14 21:43:55 and read 17764 times.



Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 31):
I'll thrown in Oasis Hong Kong. Low cost/long haul obviously didn't work. You look at the business model in hindsight, and it looks like something an aviation enthusiast would think of. It's what we wish the airline industry was, but that's not what makes money.

Then again, didn't VS have success with this business plan? Of course, that was over twenty years ago.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: SkyguyB727
Posted 2009-05-14 21:44:07 and read 17766 times.

Another idea that has failed multiple times is the concept of offering first class service at coach fares or less. Air One out of STL and other airlines have tried it, and all have failed. When YX tried it, they were still owned by Kimberly-Clark. KC could afford to absorb the losses.

I remember thinking it was odd that YX at the time was bragging in the newspapers that they had DC-9 fuselage number 2 flying in their fleet. That was in the late '80s when other airlines were promoting their newer planes. Around the same time, YX exectutives publicly stated that the airline's cost structure was about three times higher than that of their competitors. We can all see where that got YX.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Max550
Posted 2009-05-14 22:08:35 and read 17705 times.

What about the all business carriers? The ideas ranged from semi crazy (EOS, newish 757's) to really crazy (MAXjet, SILVERJET with old 767's).
I think the whole idea is flawed mainly because people that travel that much want to earn rewards for it, be able to get anywhere, not just the 2 or 3 cities they fly to, and have better frequency than a flight or two a day.
Gas prices shooting up didn't help either, especially with the old 767's.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-05-14 22:23:08 and read 17669 times.



Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 39):
Another idea that has failed multiple times is the concept of offering first class service at coach fares or less.

Don't forget Legend flying those 56 seat DC-9s out of DAL. Old, relatively inefficient planes + fewer seats + competing with Southwest = footnote in history.

Quoting Max550 (Reply 40):
I think the whole idea is flawed mainly because people that travel that much want to earn rewards for it, be able to get anywhere,

I think that this is why OpenSkies has a chance.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: M404
Posted 2009-05-14 23:13:15 and read 17527 times.

Hughes AirWest inflight soup service. After lots of raves from the passengers it was considered too dangerous in case of turbulance.

Hughes Airwest originally debuted with a beautiful "Sundance" silver reflective coating on the windows. Very pretty but also pretty impossible and expensive and it removed easily during cleaning and weather wear.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Flybyguy
Posted 2009-05-14 23:25:56 and read 17458 times.



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 26):
LH's idea of NOT putting PTVs on Y-class.



Installation of PTV systems on planes can come up to a few thousand a seat. I'm not sure if typical Y-class fares during the lifetime of the system may allow the airline to break even on the original investment. I think a lot of international airlines install AVOD in Y-simply to be competitive with other airlines that take losses on the PTV installations in Y. At any rate, I'm not complaining... I fly steerage just about every time I travel.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MEA-707
Posted 2009-05-15 00:40:33 and read 17250 times.



Quoting OB1504 (Reply 38):
Then again, didn't VS have success with this business plan? Of course, that was over twenty years ago.

VS never was or wanted to be a low cost carrier. In fact they are usually more expensive.

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 26):
LH's idea of NOT putting PTVs on Y-class

They now put them in all their long haul fleet. In the early 2000s only a few of their competitors had PTVs yet so they didn't feel the need for the additional expenses while most Y pax didn't mind that much and they were very profitable with that. No almost all their competitors like KL/AF take PTVs they jump on the bandwagon.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BrianDromey
Posted 2009-05-15 01:02:10 and read 17196 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
And TED, and BA's go. These things never work because they either just fail, or they succeed and siphon traffic from the mainline and get shut down that way.

BA's Go was a success. they invested £25 million, sold it to 3i for £100. 3i sold it to easyJet for £300 million. I would call that a success. What BA underestimated was the effect of the LCC. Go was an early starter and was very quick to expand into 'regional' bases in the UK, such as BRS. Had it been allowed to grow and refleet (319s and 321s were the plan) U2 might not be half the airline it is today!

Quoting CokePopper (Reply 10):
Can someone sing a ........S O N G ?

Im not so sure that was a bone-head idea either. DL needed to do something and SONG was received quite well. DL learned a lot from SONG and the basic SONG product is what DL offers today. Integrating SONG back into mainline helped DL's tarnished brand image, IMHO.

Brian.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mariner
Posted 2009-05-15 01:49:05 and read 17067 times.



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 45):
BA's Go was a success. they invested £25 million, sold it to 3i for £100.

They also had to cover the losses. Go started in 1998 and lost about £55 million in three years:

http://money.cnn.com/2001/03/05/europe/klm/index.htm

CNN Money: "Go has yet to make a profit. Although revenue tripled to £100.6 million in the year ended March 31, 2000, it posted a loss £15.2 million, little changed from the previous year's £15.5 million deficit[/i]

Go lost more money as at March 31, 2001, and was sold at the end of that year:

http://business.scotsman.com/business/All-systems-Go-as-KLM.2248307.jp

"Go, run by high-profile chief executive Barbara Cassani, posted annual pre-tax losses of £21.8m in the year ended March 31 but insisted it would break even this year after making a profit every month since."

Break-even was the best they could hope for the year it was sold to 3i.

Easyjet didn't buy a profitable enterprise - it was taking out a competitor and using Go as a vehicle to expand.

mariner

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: KstateinALB
Posted 2009-05-15 01:56:18 and read 17015 times.



Quoting Fghtngsiouxatc (Reply 22):
US charging for softdrinks! Can't believe no one brought that up. When you're the only airline charging, no one's going to buy! How long did that even last? 2 years?

It actually started in August 2008, so not even close to a year that it lasted.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Xdlx
Posted 2009-05-15 02:02:32 and read 17077 times.



Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 18):

Regional Jets...... There was a great phrase used by a then DAL President!
- " we will compete with the LCC by using our RJ armada"

Right then, we knew! The moron was going to put us on the ditch.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Bramble
Posted 2009-05-15 02:16:23 and read 17063 times.

Aer Lingus received their first A330s in 1994/5. One of them was in all economy with no entertainment system. EI didn't want it to sour the perception of their product so it was given a different livery until it could be refitted to match the rest of the fleet. (Think it was white with a green shamrock and called Ireland Tours) In the mean time this aircraft had 'live entertainment' onboard. A friend of mine was on one of the flights. They had magicians, clowns and I think musicians!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-05-15 02:26:07 and read 17126 times.

London - NYC is a top business market.

Lets start a Business only, point to point service for those demanding guys avoiding those crowdy hubs and offer relatively low prices

Let those inflexible legacy carriers with their outdated feeder networks fly the rest.

We got very positive market responds and w'll start to NYC with 2 aircraft & build it from there.





http://media.loudounextra.com/img/photos/2007/10/09/maxjet__t764a.jpg



If you think it's risky, you're old style and just don't understand the real needs of tomorrows business traveller.

 covereyes 

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2009-05-15 03:02:41 and read 16669 times.

What ever happened to that (IIRC european airline) that introduced a special class were no children were allowed? I remember reading that in the news paper a long time back. They also allowed the passengers traveling in that class to take more check-in luggage.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Deltamd90
Posted 2009-05-15 03:19:51 and read 16615 times.



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 45):
Im not so sure that was a bone-head idea either. DL needed to do something and SONG was received quite well. DL learned a lot from SONG and the basic SONG product is what DL offers today. Integrating SONG back into mainline helped DL's tarnished brand image, IMHO.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

That's what most people don't really get. A large part of SONG was an experiment, and although the paintjob, name, and a few other aspects of it did not survive, you can easy spot remnants if you compare Delta's current planes to their planes, say, 10 years ago (can anyone say IFE?)  Smile

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Vhqpa
Posted 2009-05-15 03:23:14 and read 16560 times.



Quoting Bramble (Reply 49):
In the mean time this aircraft had 'live entertainment' onboard. A friend of mine was on one of the flights. They had magicians, clowns and I think musicians!

Really? That would have been so cool.



Vhq

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mariner
Posted 2009-05-15 03:29:38 and read 16547 times.



Quoting Deltamd90 (Reply 52):
That's what most people don't really get.

Count me as one of the ones who didn't get it.

Song was a deliberate attempt to stop the erosion of market share to the LCC's and specifically to JetBlue, there wasn't much experimental about it.

United started Ted for the same reason.

The problem for both Song and Ted was that they had (basically) legacy carrier costs in the LCC environment.

mariner

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Dtwclipper
Posted 2009-05-15 04:14:29 and read 16355 times.



Quoting Airbear (Reply 19):
a) CO's Piano Lounges on their early 747's

That was AA, not CO.

It was done during a downturn in the economy and did actually increase traffic.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Elcableguy77
Posted 2009-05-15 04:30:11 and read 16232 times.



Quoting Fghtngsiouxatc (Reply 22):
US charging for softdrinks! Can't believe no one brought that up. When you're the only airline charging, no one's going to buy! How long did that even last? 2 years?

It lasted all of 6 months, and was one of the worst ideas US had. It turned the F/As into walking vending machines. There was a communal cheer among all the mainline and Express F/As when that went away...

Also, let us not forget another (with apologies to David Letterman) stupid airline trick:

Charging for each checked bag. It did nothing but drive passengers to over-stuff their large carry-on bags and try to bring them on themselves. It still amazes me what huge bags people will try to bring on a CRJ.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: LMML 14/32
Posted 2009-05-15 04:41:55 and read 16148 times.

Maybe a bit off topic. the low cost South African airline KULULA ......... which in my language means a blow job  Silly .

But of course I live thousands of miles from South Africa.........

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Gsoflyer
Posted 2009-05-15 04:59:02 and read 15954 times.



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 16):
I agree that the concept was fine. In some markets they were doing great, like PSM. The problem is they went to CMH and gso and didn't allow you to connect to any other destinations
. Not to mention that the man who wrote the business plan had no say in any of the airline's operations.

I get tired of comments abotu GSO and Skybus from people who speak like they never read an article or looked up stats on the company or operations.

The problem wasn't lack of connections or service from GSO or CMH. If you go back and look at stats, you'll see that from GSO, Skybus was running 90% or more loads on the flights from GSO to all the Florida cities, Portsmouth, Gary. That bad routes were Biloxi and the California routes and running twice daily to Wilmington rather than once.

For the most part, Greensboro worked on the model and filled planes on the model. It was more like marketing over-saturated routes or introduced routes with no demand.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Jneel43
Posted 2009-05-15 06:03:57 and read 15448 times.

The AA 747's with piano lounges also had professional piano players on some flights. I worked as a Flight Service Director on board and the passengers really loved the experience.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2009-05-15 06:49:15 and read 14871 times.

Virgin America  duck 

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Tjwgrr
Posted 2009-05-15 07:05:49 and read 14678 times.

Air Azul / JetAmerica

Failure in the making. Let's fly business routes only twice or three times a week with a rented 737-800......

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Max999
Posted 2009-05-15 07:09:19 and read 14630 times.

UA floated the idea of charging for meals on trans-Atlantic flights. Bad idea...the feedback from all sides was completely negative.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2009-05-15 07:24:10 and read 14422 times.



Quoting Elcableguy77 (Reply 56):
Charging for each checked bag. It did nothing but drive passengers to over-stuff their large carry-on bags and try to bring them on themselves.

Actually it's pretty much been a slam dunk for every carrier that's charging for bags both in terms of ancillary revenue as well as reduced baggage problems.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2009-05-15 07:46:09 and read 14195 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
SKYBUS!!!

Also my first thought. Wonder if we will see another "Skybus" carrier.

There is one starting. It is called Jet America. (Air Azul)

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/L
Username: SW733
Posted 2009-05-15 08:03:39 and read 13995 times.



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 4):
I dont think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the concept, just the markets they chose.

 yes 

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 4):
Now, Independence Air, that was stupid

 yes 

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Indy Air was a bad and half-baked idea. ExpressJet was just a bad idea. 50 seaters are too expensive for that kind of thing, and some people will go out of their way to avoid them.

my problem was, I enjoyed their routes (namely MCI-ONT), but was not willing to fly that whole way on an RJ. MCI-MSY was fine, but MCI-ONT was a bit much. The price of beer helped  Smile

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-05-15 08:08:51 and read 13954 times.



Quoting Ridgid727 (Reply 28):
Onboard ticketing at HP (in their very early years) & also at People Express

Onboard ticketing worked perfectly, however, on the Eastern Shuttle and was almost essential for Eastern's no reservations, guaranteed seat operation.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Falstaff
Posted 2009-05-15 08:14:24 and read 13843 times.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Also my first thought. Wonder if we will see another "Skybus" carrier.

I am sure we will. A couple of years ago I bought Deregulation Knockouts 1 & 2 from Airways Magazine. Both of them were great books and while reading them I remembered some of the start up airlines, but most of them I never heard of and most of them didn't last long. The books talk about start ups that began and ended between 1978 and 2005. After reading the two books I was amazed that anyone could even get backers and money to start an airline. There are A LOT more failures in the industry than successes. There were a lot of "good" ideas that were not so good.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Richierich
Posted 2009-05-15 08:15:52 and read 13855 times.



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 45):
Im not so sure that was a bone-head idea either. DL needed to do something and SONG was received quite well. DL learned a lot from SONG and the basic SONG product is what DL offers today. Integrating SONG back into mainline helped DL's tarnished brand image, IMHO.



Quoting Deltamd90 (Reply 52):
That's what most people don't really get. A large part of SONG was an experiment, and although the paintjob, name, and a few other aspects of it did not survive, you can easy spot remnants if you compare Delta's current planes to their planes, say, 10 years ago (can anyone say IFE?)

I hate to get into another pissing match about this subject, but I'm from the camp that says Song was a bust. Nobody will disagree that Song's product was a vast improvement over mainline DL, but did they really need to start a whole airline-within-an-airline to figure out that people like PTVs and simple fares? What an absolute waste of money! Yes, pulling it back and making DL mainline more "Song-like" was the best thing DL could have done after the bonehead decision (of a previous administration) to go with Song in the first place.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 60):
Virgin America

Ouch!
I think Virgin America has a great product but they are victims of extremely bad timing.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 64):
There is one starting. It is called Jet America. (Air Azul)

Let's hope their execution is better than Skybus'!

My contribution to this thread are two ideas that haven't been instituted yet (and hopefully never will): Ryanair's pledge to start charging for check-in and also for lavatory usage.

The charging for check-in is called a fee which means that it is exclusive of the initial booking cost - however since there really is no way around the fee, it should be considered part of the fare. Let's hope the UK government puts the kibosh on that one. As for the lavatory fee, I think we all understand the concept of pay toilets. We have to deal with them at European airports and train stations, etc., but on an airplane?? Talk about a captive audience! I'd never condone a wonton act of soiling an aircraft, but surely this will make some people pee (or worse) in their seats??
One day, Ryanair is going to push the "cheap" thing one step too far and the public will leave them in droves. Well, one can hope....

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-15 08:37:33 and read 13626 times.



Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 61):
JetAmerica

I remember in the weeks before the Delta/Western merger was announced, it was announced that Delta and Jet America (a previous incarnation) were in merger talks.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 54):
Song was a deliberate attempt to stop the erosion of market share to the LCC's and specifically to JetBlue, there wasn't much experimental about it.

Actually, there was, compared to mainline. Many SONG processes were eventually brought over to mainline, i.e. ramp procedures, gate procecdures, etc.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2009-05-15 08:47:54 and read 13562 times.



Quoting Jetdudetim (Reply 36):
Actually, PSA's L1011's were purchased to fly to Hawaii, which they were never awarded.

PSA purchased L-1011s after the 1969 transpacific route case had been decided. They were not purchased to fly to Hawaii, they were purchased so PSA could combine two 727-200 flights from SFO to LAX into one L-1011 flight. However, PSA only discovered after the L-1011s were in service that it takes much longer to unload and re load an L-1011 than it does to unload and re load a 727-200. The longer turn around times the L-1011s required destroyed any savings from flying fewer flights.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
AA acquiring the MD11 altogether. A plane that severely under-performed to their expectations. Hoping it would fly JFK-NRT, AA ended up having to run a short-lived SEA-NRT, as that was seemingly one of the only transpac routes the MD11 could make unrestricted.

AA did not fly SEA-NRT "because that was seemingly one of the only transpac routes the MD11 could make unrestricted".

AA purchased SEA-NRT from CO for $150 million in 1990, when CO filed for bankruptcy for the second time. When AA purchased the route, the US-Japan bilateral was so restrictive that AA was not able to fly to Japan from Chicago, New York, or many other cities.

In 1998, the US and Japan signed a much more liberal bilateral, that allowed UA to resume SEA-NRT flights (AA's SEA-NRT authority had originally been awarded to UA in 1983, but UA was forced to give the route to CO as a condition of UA's purchase of Pan Am's Pacific routes). This meant UA, NW, and AA were all competing in SEA-NRT. After 9/11, there was not enough traffic to support all three airlines, and AA suspended the route.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Falstaff
Posted 2009-05-15 08:57:13 and read 13391 times.



Quoting Richierich (Reply 68):
I think we all understand the concept of pay toilets. We have to deal with them at European airports and train stations, etc

I hate those. I like to take a leak without having to pay. I would go broke if we had all those pay toilets in pulic places in the US. I think the last time I saw a pay toilet in the USA was at a truck stop in Colorado and that was in 1984. I remember crawling under the stall door.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 68):
I'd never condone a wonton act of soiling an aircraft

I would... If they make you pay to use the john on a plane I say pee in the corner. What is the worst that could happen? In the grands scale of things you wouldn't get in that much trouble because the media would jump all over it. If the headline was "Man urinates on plane because he didn't have any cash" the public would be outraged at the airline, not the urinator. If airlines charge to use the head they will probably loose a lot in beer sales. A person who may drink beers on the plane might decide not to because they don't want to pay to use the toilet. So now the airline wouldn't get its toilet money and its beer money.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2009-05-15 08:58:58 and read 13370 times.

In the 1960s, many airlines decided to expand into the hotel industry, so they could (in theory) sell their passengers a seat on an airplane, and a hotel bed, in the same transaction.

TWA purchased the international division of Hilton Hotels. United purchased Western International hotels (which was renamed Westin in the early 1980s). Instead of buying an established hotel chain, American decided to start a hotel chain from scratch. Originally called "Flagship Inns", the chain was subsequently renamed Americana Hotels (TV ads encouraged people to "Fly American / Stay Americana") after AA bought hotels in New York City, Miami, and San Juan, from the Loews family.

The entire project was a huge fiasco for AA, because they wound up with a mix of two star airport motels, and four star airport hotels, that did not have a consistent image. AA also wound up with hotels in places like Pusan, Korea, that were thousands of miles from the nearest city AA flew to.

After tens of millions of dollars in losses, AA finally decided to shut the chain down in 1978, less than fifteen years after the chain was established.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: LongHauler
Posted 2009-05-15 09:15:36 and read 13157 times.



Quoting CFV2 (Reply 6):
AC's gobbling up of CP, in hindsight, wasn't such a hot business decision.... especially given CP's balance sheet and heavy debt. It wasn't sound, and seemed driven more out of spite than sense; or, greed. It would have been better for Air Canada's bottom line to simply let Canadian Airlines dwindle and downsize, or maybe fail, which seemed pretty much inevitable anyway.

When Air Canada took over Canadi>n, Canadi>n had very little debt ... less than CAD 1M. Air Canada's debt, is Air Canada's debt!

AC's decision to take over CP, was not so much spite as fear. Namely, AC was told that if CP shut down, the international routes would not go to AC, they would be offered to ALL Canadian carriers. AC was welcome to apply for any they liked, but all routes would be split between all airlines.

Also, AC feared what would happen should CP not shut down. As it would be political suicide to allow CP to shut down if there were alternatives ... it was the alternatives that AC feared. What if ONEX took over CP completely, what if AMR Corp was allowed to buy 49%, what if, what if .... Then AC's worst fears might be realized .. they would have to compete with a financially sound company for the first time in their existence. Like now!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-15 09:18:41 and read 13113 times.



Quoting Richierich (Reply 68):
As for the lavatory fee, I think we all understand the concept of pay toilets. We have to deal with them at European airports and train stations, etc., but on an airplane??

I can remember when ORD had pay toilets up to the late 70's and early 80's, when Mayor Byrne (Calamity Jane) came in and eliminated them. Probably the only meaningful thing she did as mayor.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 68):
I hate to get into another pissing match about this subject, but I'm from the camp that says Song was a bust. Nobody will disagree that Song's product was a vast improvement over mainline DL, but did they really need to start a whole airline-within-an-airline to figure out that people like PTVs and simple fares?

Actually, it was pretty successful, but Gerald Grinstein didn't like it from the start and decided a bankruptcy was a good time to eliminate it.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Max550
Posted 2009-05-15 09:26:01 and read 13056 times.

How about the IAD-DFW Concorde flights that Braniff flew. I read that there were rarely more than 15 passengers and the Concorde only flew mach .95.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-15 09:30:58 and read 12773 times.



Quoting Max550 (Reply 75):
How about the IAD-DFW Concorde flights that Braniff flew. I read that there were rarely more than 15 passengers and the Concorde only flew mach .95.

I guess that was an interchange with BA. Not much allure to the Concorde when, by law, it was restricted to sub MACH over the continental US.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Q120
Posted 2009-05-15 09:39:40 and read 12690 times.



Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 18):
RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs RJs

AND MORE

RJs

Need I mention Independence Air! And look how fast the 35, 40 and 50 seaters are fading away. Hopefully soon the 70 seaters will go as well.

Whoever the genius was that thought you could make money with these things obviously did not complete their GED. Whoever designed these things must have been recruited from Playskool Toys and continued to believe they were designing for children. And, whoever thought the definition of "regional" was up to a 3 1/2 hour flight must still be working on their 1st Boy Scout merit badge after 30 years of active membership.

The RJ was a great solution to the 50 seat restriction that many airlines faced at the time.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-15 09:57:47 and read 12480 times.



Quoting Q120 (Reply 77):
The RJ was a great solution to the 50 seat restriction that many airlines faced at the time.

It was a good idea, at the time. Fuel prices were low and passengers were given the choice of flying on a jet, even to the small towns. It only became a bad idea when the airlines tried to make it something it wasn't.......they tried put them in place of mainline flights on routes that were 2+ hours and that just aggravated the problem when fuel went up.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Dtwclipper
Posted 2009-05-15 10:03:00 and read 12551 times.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this one!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeffrey S. DeVore



Just flying in and out of DET was a bad idea to begin with!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Txjim
Posted 2009-05-15 11:11:07 and read 11832 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
Don't forget Legend flying those 56 seat DC-9s out of DAL. Old, relatively inefficient planes + fewer seats + competing with Southwest = footnote in history

But they sure were a nice way to get to ORD while they lasted! I know a flight attendant who worked that route; she described the number of gourmet meals left over after each flight. The crew ate well...

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-05-15 11:35:58 and read 11576 times.

Another bad idea was LX changing to Buy-on-Board in Y class on their routes within Europe a few years ago. It was totally contrary to their image as a quality carrier. And with a high proportion of LX shorthaul passengers connecting to/from their longhaul network, it resulted in very inconsistent service standards. Fortunately LX quickly realized that it was a bad idea and killed the BOB concept after about 6 months.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2009-05-15 11:41:48 and read 11521 times.



Quoting Fghtngsiouxatc (Reply 22):
US charging for softdrinks! Can't believe no one brought that up. When you're the only airline charging, no one's going to buy! How long did that even last? 2 years?

Actually, it was less than a year.

But we can just put US Airways as a whole since the merger on the list of stupid airline ideas, since they're usually the first to come up with the newest nickel and dime BS ideas.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: CFV2
Posted 2009-05-15 12:31:05 and read 11109 times.



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 73):
When Air Canada took over Canadi>n, Canadi>n had very little debt ... less than CAD 1M. Air Canada's debt, is Air Canada's debt!

Uh, no. Canadian was about $2.8 billion (with a B) dollars in debt by the end of 1996;

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...ex.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1SEC674168

I remember that, by 1999, they were pretty desperate for an infusion of cash. The bleak memos the company was sending out put a dark pall out over everyone working there.

Air Canada had substantial debt as well going into the deal, like you said - but the addition of another few billion probably didn't help.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: DiscoverCSG
Posted 2009-05-15 12:33:26 and read 11097 times.



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 79):
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this one!



Just flying in and out of DET was a bad idea to begin with!

Also, not having wheels, engines, nose, etc., can't have helped with the efficiency of operations.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Dc10s2hnl
Posted 2009-05-15 12:51:51 and read 10983 times.



Quoting Chapavaeaa (Reply 32):
Air Wisconsin (??) starting up a transcon BAE 146 transcon just before the fuel tank AD limiting their range was issued.

That is insane, can a 146 even do a transcon? Why would ZW even attempt such a thing?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2009-05-15 13:30:38 and read 10642 times.

Um...surprised nobody has thought that AA's TWA acquisition was not the dumbest idea ever...acquire a glut of old aircraft (that has come to bite them in the @$$ as we speak) and a hub located <550 miles from two mega hub systems that deal with East/West and North/South traffic...not to mention STL's extremely depressed economy. Kudos to Don Carty!

On a slightly unrelated note...what became/has yet to become of SMINT Air (Smoker's International Airways?)

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 15):
Channeling Gordon Bethune? He did, after all, say that "You can make a pizza so cheap that no one will eat it."

LOL...I was gonna say the same thing!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MBMBOS
Posted 2009-05-15 13:36:56 and read 10622 times.

TWA's paper flight attendant uniforms. I've read they tore easily and moisture made them instantly see-through.

I believe during the early eighties Eastern attempted an aggressive FN/YN night flight schedule to increase utilization of their fleet. These flights would depart sometimes at 2 or 3 in the morning and they reasoned that, even if not fully loaded, cargo would make up the difference. I believe they even tried making IAH a focus city in this red eye boondoggle.

Wayports: during the late eighties congress considered building mega hubs in the middle of nowhere to create major airline hub and spoke systems. The idea died finally, fortunately.

I have some great ideas that I think would work, however:

Swiss: should offer a fondue service on their short flights. Passengers could dip their bread in a cheese pot heated with sterno as a flight attendant trolleys her way down the aisle.

SAS: should install a sauna in the front of first class and provide birch branches to each of their fc passengers.

First class = sexual favors. I think this would be a great selling point if, for the exorbitant price airlines charge for first class, if they offered some sort of...um....full release.

 Smile

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: LongHauler
Posted 2009-05-15 13:40:47 and read 10536 times.



Quoting CFV2 (Reply 83):
Uh, no. Canadian was about $2.8 billion (with a B) dollars in debt by the end of 1996;

That is correct.

The merger was in 1999, three years later, after all debt holders took a haircut. And you are right, my M was incorrect and should have been a B. At the time of the merger, Canadi>n's debt was CAD 788M. (with an M)

Quoting CFV2 (Reply 83):
Air Canada had substantial debt as well going into the deal, like you said

That is right, it is hard to estimate, and many have, the consensus seems to be around CAD 2.0B to stop the ONEX deal, and forge one if its own taking on further debt. In my opinion, that is the biggest error AC made at that time, and made no sense. The ONEX proposal would have put it about CAD 3.5B ahead of where they ended up. (CAD 1.5B cash infusion without taking on the CAD 2.0B debt).

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Yellowtail
Posted 2009-05-15 14:13:08 and read 10250 times.

Anyone remember KIWI?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: SirSheldon
Posted 2009-05-15 14:50:09 and read 9963 times.

Roots Air in Canada. It was supposed to bring "fashion to the skies" - but people really didn't care if their FA's were dressed in designer duds I guess. 6J didn't last but a few months.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: SirSheldon
Posted 2009-05-15 14:51:18 and read 9933 times.

JetsGo's $1 fares. No wonder they didn't have any money for maintenance!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Gr8SlvrFlt
Posted 2009-05-15 15:12:33 and read 9775 times.

Continental tried six-abreast seating on a DC-9s in the sixties. I believe it only last one flight!

USAir spent a lot of money on seats that could be converted from First to Coach depending on load. I don't think they lasted too long.

I believe during the early eighties Eastern attempted an aggressive FN/YN night flight schedule to increase utilization of their fleet. These flights would depart sometimes at 2 or 3 in the morning and they reasoned that, even if not fully loaded, cargo would make up the difference. I believe they even tried making IAH a focus city in this red eye boondoggle.

Actually, Eastern's Moonlight Special was very successful and very popular. After Eastern was taken over by Texas Air, however, it was impacting Continental's bottom line out of IAH and the operation was moved to ORD, which was highly-unsuitable. The Moonlight Special was shut down a short time later, supposedly due to ALPA intransigence in opening their contract early (the MCI hub was closed at the same time).

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Sunking737
Posted 2009-05-15 15:16:58 and read 9684 times.

Northwest Orient Airlines buying Republic Airlines. It was a very sad day.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2009-05-15 15:18:23 and read 9696 times.



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 87):

I believe during the early eighties Eastern attempted an aggressive FN/YN night flight schedule to increase utilization of their fleet. These flights would depart sometimes at 2 or 3 in the morning and they reasoned that, even if not fully loaded, cargo would make up the difference. I believe they even tried making IAH a focus city in this red eye boondoggle.

The Moonlight Specials. Eastern had been awarded a cargo contract with several cargo companies, that would involve using Eastern's A300s on overnight flights out of Houston (and later Chicago as the operation was moved to there). Since Eastern was flying these a/c and being paid to haul the cargo, why not sell the seats in cabin dirt cheap to make some extra revenue? You could check (on a standby basis because the cargo contracts had priority) a bag for $10, could bring on two carry-on items, and drinks and snacks were buy on board items (Sounds like many airlines these days). When Eastern was grounded due to the ALPA walkout, this pretty much ended this service.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
Don't forget Legend flying those 56 seat DC-9s out of DAL. Old, relatively inefficient planes + fewer seats + competing with Southwest = footnote in history.

I wouldn't necessarily say Legend "competed" with Southwest. LC flew DAL-LAX, DAL-IAD, DAL-LAS, and DAL-LGA. WN didn't fly to LAS or LAX out of DAL due to the Wright Amendment and if one wanted to fly to those WN cities,it was a complicated dance (You had to buy separate tickets, one to/from DAL to/from a "Wright Amendment City" and another to/from that city to/from LAS or LAX.).

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: CFV2
Posted 2009-05-15 15:20:12 and read 9639 times.



Quoting SirSheldon (Reply 91):
JetsGo's $1 fares. No wonder they didn't have any money for maintenance!

.... Or approach plates for YYC.... http://aviation-safety.net/news/newsitem.php?id=1367

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Otops
Posted 2009-05-15 15:25:30 and read 9607 times.



Quoting Bramble (Reply 49):
They had magicians, clowns and I think musicians!

After reading through all these post this sounds like the worst so far. Was this for real?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BAViscount
Posted 2009-05-15 15:28:35 and read 9571 times.

Just throwing this out there, but what about BA's walk-on shuttle service to Scotland in the 70s? I remember reading stories of how the F/A's sometimes actually forgot to collect fares (it was a pay on board service), and also that as you were guaranteed a seat, they sometimes had to roll out an additional aircraft just for one passenger!! Couldn't have been particularly cost-effective...I don't know a lot of the detail around this service (although I do remember wanting to fly on it as a kid!), but it was the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-05-15 15:30:57 and read 9579 times.



Quoting SirSheldon (Reply 90):
Roots Air in Canada. It was supposed to bring "fashion to the skies" - but people really didn't care if their FA's were dressed in designer duds I guess. 6J didn't last but a few months.

And slightly more downmarket, Greyhound Air, the low-cost airline venture started by Greyhound bus lines in Canada in 1996 using 6 727-200s (operated by Kelowna Flightcraft). They offered low-fare service between major cities via a hub in YWG, with inter-modal connecting service to/from Greyhound buses. That venture lasted 14 months before they pulled the plug.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Hans-Werner Klein

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2009-05-15 15:35:24 and read 9501 times.

1. AZ: build a hub at FCO.
2. AZ in general: let's keep it 'alive' at all costs.

Someday it will stop working.

If there is one thing AZ is an expert on, it is trying, failing, trying again, failing again, trying again the same thing, failing again, etc.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: CFV2
Posted 2009-05-15 15:43:10 and read 9408 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 98):
And slightly more downmarket, Greyhound Air, the low-cost airline venture started by Greyhound bus lines in Canada in 1996 using 6 727-200s (operated by Kelowna Flightcraft). They offered low-fare service between major cities via a hub in YWG, with inter-modal connecting service to/from Greyhound buses. That venture lasted 14 months before they pulled the plug.

I thought that had more to do with a change of ownership at Greyhound Air than an actual failure of the idea.... I think it was Laidlaw who took over Greyhound, and wanted nothing to do with the airline. So it was pretty much done when it lost that backing.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Gr8SlvrFlt
Posted 2009-05-15 15:44:06 and read 9374 times.

Did anyone ever make money on Airphones?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: B747forever
Posted 2009-05-15 15:56:23 and read 9268 times.



Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 35):
No quite as "long haul",

So you dont think that STN-KUL is "quite as long haul"?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-05-15 16:00:26 and read 9206 times.



Quoting CFV2 (Reply 100):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 98):
And slightly more downmarket, Greyhound Air, the low-cost airline venture started by Greyhound bus lines in Canada in 1996 using 6 727-200s (operated by Kelowna Flightcraft). They offered low-fare service between major cities via a hub in YWG, with inter-modal connecting service to/from Greyhound buses. That venture lasted 14 months before they pulled the plug.

I thought that had more to do with a change of ownership at Greyhound Air than an actual failure of the idea.... I think it was Laidlaw who took over Greyhound, and wanted nothing to do with the airline. So it was pretty much done when it lost that backing.

True, but I'm sure the operation was never profitable. Ironically, prior to the Laidlaw takeover, Greyhound Canada's CEO and several of their marketing executives were former CP Air senior executives. Their CEO had been CP Air's Senior VP of Marketing for several years prior to Pacific Western's acquisition of CP Air to form Canadian Airlines.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: CFV2
Posted 2009-05-15 16:04:24 and read 9168 times.

LongHauler, my apologies for not getting back to you right away.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 88):
That is correct.

The merger was in 1999, three years later, after all debt holders took a haircut. And you are right, my M was incorrect and should have been a B. At the time of the merger, Canadi>n's debt was CAD 788M. (with an M)

I was under the impression that the figure was larger than that. Nonetheless; a billion here, a few hundred million there; sooner or later, we start talking about real money. My point was that the additional debt - however much - from purchasing CP could not have helped AC's fortunes.

And whatever political capital they received from "saving" jobs by taking over CP was likely squandered when they furloughed and laid about the same number of people off, over the course of a couple of years.

On the balance, AC taking over CP was a bad idea. It saddled the combined company with debts and responsibilities (like wages and pensions) they obviously couldn't handle, paid few dividends politically, and opened the door for smaller carriers (WestJet) to leverage a lower cost structure in order to take over market share that they never won back.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 88):
That is right, it is hard to estimate, and many have, the consensus seems to be around CAD 2.0B to stop the ONEX deal, and forge one if its own taking on further debt. In my opinion, that is the biggest error AC made at that time, and made no sense. The ONEX proposal would have put it about CAD 3.5B ahead of where they ended up. (CAD 1.5B cash infusion without taking on the CAD 2.0B debt).

So far as I recall it, the thinking at the time was that AC didn't want ONEX holding the purse strings - perhaps out of fear that ONEX would demand changes in the management of AC in the new amalgamated airline. The management at AC wanted to own it all under their own terms, not someone else's.

I also recall the unions - specifically IAMAW - being very against the ONEX deal, too. I think they figured that ONEX would demand they take a haircut on wages and so on, to make the combined entity competitive. Of course, they ended up taking one anyway only a few years later.....

In hindsight, the threat of ONEX demanding a change of guard at the top levels of AC seems like it would have been a good idea, anyway. But hindsight is 20/20.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2009-05-15 17:38:34 and read 8801 times.

This has been a very interesting thread so far. Some from the Caribbean.

In 1994 BA touted its "Project Sunshine", a new airline to link the Eastern Caribbean islands from BGI and provide connections with its LGW services there. The airline would use BAe 146 jets to fly to the islands in competition with ANU-based LI. The project gained ground after 5 Caribbean islands, namely Barbados, Grenada, St. Vincent & the Grenadines, St. Lucia and Dominica supported the project - much to the consternation of Antigua & Barbuda and LI's joint biggest shareholder at the time, Trinidad & Tobago (the other was actually Barbados!). The project gained further impetus after BA decided to drop POS from its network in October 1994 and it thus hoped to use the new airline to replace the terminated services.

Project Sunshine became Carib Express or IM and started in 1995 with 3 of the jets flying to BGI, POS, GND, SVD, SLU, DOM, ANU and later TAB. In short order though the ailing LI beefed up its services and strengthened its position. IM suffered from poor loads and inherent inefficiencies on using the jets on such short, lightly-loaded routes and went out of business in 1996.

Air Caribbean or C2 was based in POS and started services on the domestic route to TAB in 1993 with YS11 aircraft. For a while they had a virtual monopoly on the domestic route and actually increased traffic on the sector, reversing a decline which had set in once BW used increasingly larger jets (and correspondingly fewer flights) on the busy sector. By 1998 they expanded their network to GND, BGI and GEO but it would be their move to fly to MIA which would be their undoing. They bought 3 elderly 737-200 Advanced jets to do the route but one of them could not be fitted with hushkits and thus remained entirely out of action.

In 2000 C2 started the MIA flights for US$199 return, hoping to grab a share of the market. They did so advertising their 737-200 Advanced aircraft as the planes being used. What they perhaps did not anticipate was that their competition to MIA, BW and AA, would match their fares - and BW would offer MIA in factory-fresh 737-800 Next Generation planes! In fact BW emphasized the NG aspect of the 737-800s, which came in the then-new green livery. AA for its part used the A300 and later the 757-200, both of which were considerably more advanced than the 737-200. Both BW and AA also had advantages of their respective loyalty programmes which helped them retain business. C2's losses mounted and the airline withdrew from MIA in September 2000 before collapsing the following month. The C2 debacle had wider implications for T&T as the 737-200s despite hushkits were not totally satisfactory to the US authorities, who complained repeatedly to the T&T CAA. This issue would be one of several which led to T&T being downgraded to ICAO Category 2 in 2001, a rating in which it would wallow for 4 years.

In 2000 as well the inter-island airline scene became very congested indeed. Alongside LI came privately-owned Caribbean Star or 8B flying many of the same routes as LI; BWee Express (which opened in 1999) set up as a feeder to BW flights at BGI and POS and thus ending up on several of the same routes; and EC Xpress, a subsidiary of JM linking the islands to JM flights at BGI. With all flying Dash 8s the region was certainly the place to spot Dash 8s in many liveries all at once - BGI and POS being perhaps the best places to do so. The problem was that the regional market was too small to support that many carriers and even the premise of offering connections was insufficient as LI flights, while not necessarily coordinated with longer-haul services, were more frequent and ultimately offered greater flexibility. EC Xpress folded in April 2001 and BWee Express was disbanded in 2003, its planes joining new domestic carrier Tobago Express. 8B ultimately merged with LI in 2007.

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-15 18:21:07 and read 8736 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
AA acquiring the MD11 altogether. A plane that severely under-performed to their expectations.

DL had the same issues didn't they? From what i've heard, the T7 was a God send for both AA and DL (and others).

Quoting Fghtngsiouxatc (Reply 22):
US charging for softdrinks! Can't believe no one brought that up. When you're the only airline charging, no one's going to buy! How long did that even last? 2 years?

And and at recent charging for water!!! Uhhhh! I believe that has went away though. Didn't AA experiment with charging for soft drinks on American Eagle? (or American Connection or both, don't remember)

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 45):
ntegrating SONG back into mainline helped DL's tarnished brand image, IMHO.

YES! The thing about Song too was that many people didn't even know, or didn't seem to understand how or what Song was. I remember many a times flying out of SJU and hearing people say "Boy Delta sucks but Song Airlines is great, etc. Hopefully they put them out of business..." Really? lol But DL today is a VAST improvement. I can only imagine the capital investment they have made on IFE and cabin refurbishment, which I might add they have done a pretty good job.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 101):
Did anyone ever make money on Airphones?

Supposedly it was a hit in the early years in business and first...who knows.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the whole concept of the 44 (and under) seater jet. What a crazy idea. I mean, Embrear and Bombardier wouldn't have made the planes if there wasn't a market for it. Only AA and some others operates this type today correct? I understand this had/has a lot to do with scope but come on. It's a shame the turbo prop had taken a back seat in many of today's market.

Another is DL using the 738 for Shuttle OPS. I'm guessing the economics of the 738 and 733 were about the same? Even though they did go with the 733 in the end.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2009-05-15 18:30:05 and read 8701 times.



Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 58):
I get tired of comments abotu GSO and Skybus from people who speak like they never read an article or looked up stats on the company or operations.

The problem wasn't lack of connections or service from GSO or CMH. If you go back and look at stats, you'll see that from GSO, Skybus was running 90% or more loads on the flights from GSO to all the Florida cities, Portsmouth, Gary. That bad routes were Biloxi and the California routes and running twice daily to Wilmington rather than once.

I hadn't looked up any stats in GSO but I did in PSM. If you're right about GSO, then those two were cities where the model was working. But GSO-Florida worked because it is a similar market to those flown by G4. I'm pretty sure the "bad" routes would've worked if they could connect to places in Florida and California, since that is where the majority of pax from those cities are travelling.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-15 18:34:45 and read 8686 times.

Does 90% LF mean they were making money? It's my understanding this was the brunt of their OPS anyway...

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: CFV2
Posted 2009-05-15 18:55:28 and read 8650 times.

YMX - Montréal-Mirabel.

I guess building a huge airport in the middle of nowhere wasn't such a hot idea.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: 474218
Posted 2009-05-15 19:05:57 and read 8616 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Delta used the MD11 on JFK-NRT in the summer of 2001. I don't think they had restrictions on it.

There was a huge restriction in available cargo space. The center cargo compartment was filled with a fuel tank.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
And ordering them with a lower-deck lounge in what would normally have been the forward baggage/cargo compartment. That lounge made those PSA L1011s very unattractive to other carriers after PSA parked them after their brief period of service. A couple spent quite a while in the desert.

Do you really think that the PSA board of directors even considered the fact that another airline may not want their configuration. The aircraft were built for PSA to not to be sold to another airline.

Quoting Jetdudetim (Reply 36):
Actually, PSA's L1011's were purchased to fly to Hawaii, which they were never awarded.

PSA's concept of operating the L-1011 SAN-LAX-SFO is the same concept people think is so great now with the A380. One big airplane operating a few trips in lieu of several smaller aircraft operating more frequently. The problem wasn't with the aircraft but with the concept. The paying passengers wanted frequency.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2009-05-15 19:06:36 and read 8618 times.

NW thinking they could retaliate against AA by announcing they would fly DFW-LGA. NW never started the route.

AA retaliating against Legend at DAL by flying F100's in a 56 seat configuration to ORD, LGA and LAX.

AA starting a number of p2p ERJ routes at DAL to compete against WN.

Air Fones - did anyone actually ever use those things?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-05-15 19:19:45 and read 8583 times.



Quoting CFV2 (Reply 109):
YMX - Montréal-Mirabel.

I guess building a huge airport in the middle of nowhere wasn't such a hot idea.

It would have been fine if they'd completed the planned road and rail links, and moved ALL scheduled flights to Mirabel, not just international flights. Splitting domestic/transborder and international operations between the two airports never made sense as it killed Montreal as a convenient connecting hub for over 20 years.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Falstaff
Posted 2009-05-15 20:18:58 and read 8511 times.



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 79):
Just flying in and out of DET was a bad idea to begin with!

If you parked your car there you had to really wonder if it would be there when you got back.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 86):
not to mention STL's extremely depressed economy.

STL has a great economy compared to DTW.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 101):
Did anyone ever make money on Airphones?

I hope they did because those things cost a fortune.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Linglesou
Posted 2009-05-15 21:11:30 and read 8434 times.



Quoting Ridgid727 (Reply 24):
In the70's PSA getting L1011's for Intra California Services

How come this wide-bodies on relatively short legs idea failed in California - was it purely because of turnaround times or was the market just well...not right for it? I only ask because the majority of QF MEL-SYD services are operated with 767s and have been for quite some time...a question of superior efficiency perhaps?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-05-16 00:35:13 and read 8295 times.



Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 86):
Um...surprised nobody has thought that AA's TWA acquisition was not the dumbest idea ever...acquire a glut of old aircraft (that has come to bite them in the @$$ as we speak) and a hub located <550 miles from two mega hub systems that deal with East/West and North/South traffic...not to mention STL's extremely depressed economy.

The AA buyout was a bad idea, but not because of the STL economy.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Petertenthije
Posted 2009-05-16 01:36:00 and read 8215 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
And TED, and BA's go.

At least BA's Go Fly managed to run a profit and a decent operation. For a really bad example on how to run a low-cost airline within an airline look at KLM's Stansted based Buzz. The low cost airline using a fleet BAe-146s and a few 733s.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mariner
Posted 2009-05-16 01:58:18 and read 8183 times.



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 116):
At least BA's Go Fly managed to run a profit and a decent operation.

When did Go run a profit? See post #46 above:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 46):
Go started in 1998 and lost about £55 million in three years:

http://money.cnn.com/2001/03/05/europe/klm/index.htm

CNN Money: "Go has yet to make a profit. Although revenue tripled to £100.6 million in the year ended March 31, 2000, it posted a loss £15.2 million, little changed from the previous year's £15.5 million deficit[/i]

Go lost more money as at March 31, 2001, and was sold at the end of that year:

http://business.scotsman.com/business/All-systems-Go-as-KLM.2248307.jp

"Go, run by high-profile chief executive Barbara Cassani, posted annual pre-tax losses of £21.8m in the year ended March 31 but insisted it would break even this year after making a profit every month since."

Break-even was the best they could hope for the year it was sold to 3i.

mariner

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2009-05-16 02:16:52 and read 8179 times.



Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 35):
No quite as "long haul"

I think a near 14 hour sector counts as pretty damn long haul.

Family Airlines, anyone?  rotfl 
http://familyairlines.com/index7.html

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: AlitaliaDC10
Posted 2009-05-16 02:32:34 and read 8179 times.

What about SQ's Suite Class? While it looks amazing and fantastic, it seems to be a bit of white elephant for SQ. Is it true that from the 13th A380 SQ receives it will be back to First?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Directorguy
Posted 2009-05-16 02:47:08 and read 8149 times.



Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 119):

Now that brings EK's showers to mind. I have a feeling that when we do a similar thread in the 2020s someone will bring up those showers and we'll all laugh.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: AlitaliaDC10
Posted 2009-05-16 04:08:04 and read 8033 times.



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 120):
Now that brings EK's showers to mind. I have a feeling that when we do a similar thread in the 2020s someone will bring up those showers and we'll all laugh.

I thought the same thing...until i actually got to use it! I was lucky enough to be on the inaugural DXB-SYD in First and tried the shower about 2 hours before landing. It made a world of difference. You have a block space of 30mins to use it (crew come round and ask you what time you prefer to book in) and 5 mins of water which you can stop/start - there is an indicator. It is a beautifully appointed bathroom more akin to a 5 star hotel bathroom. They have 2 attendants dedicated to servicing the shower suites.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2009-05-16 05:12:59 and read 7947 times.



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 111):
AA retaliating against Legend at DAL by flying F100's in a 56 seat configuration to ORD, LGA and LAX.

It was pretty much a useless idea since AA, along with the City of Ft. Worth, caused Legend to spend quite of bit of their capital fighting lawsuits (along with having to build their own terminal) so that by the time they finally were able to start service, they didn't have enough money to sustain the operation long-term. AA could have just ignored LC and they probably would have lasted at best until 9/11/01.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Petertenthije
Posted 2009-05-16 05:33:37 and read 7898 times.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 117):
When did Go run a profit? See post #46 above:

http://www.easyjet.com/en/Investor/20020524_01.html
http://www.onpedia.com/encyclopedia/go-fly

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-16 07:25:43 and read 7777 times.

Back in the early 80's, Eastern had a promotion going with General Motors. I don't know if it was just local or national but the gist was that if you bought a new car or truck from GM, you got two free tickets on Eastern.

Well, it worked.......too well! In SLC, at least, the ticket holders waited until around Easter time and redeemed them all at once, overloading Eastern's operation and forcing them to fly many of the passengers out on us, DL, instead. This meant that EA was paying DL for full fare space to accomodate the free tickets.

I'm sure that GM probably paid for those free tickets, so they probably ended up writing off the cost of the tickets. EA ended up paying DL, so it was all probably a wash.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2009-05-16 07:33:55 and read 7780 times.

Peotone

AA's Bistro Bags

3 hour + CRJ flights

DTW - NW Worldgateway, the original Concourse C regional ops

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-16 07:39:17 and read 7764 times.



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 125):
3 hour + CRJ flights

I'd say 2 hour + is too long.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: COFanNYC
Posted 2009-05-16 10:32:24 and read 7585 times.



Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 82):
But we can just put US Airways as a whole since the merger on the list of stupid airline ideas, since they're usually the first to come up with the newest nickel and dime BS ideas.

I'm not the world's biggest supporter of US Airways nor am I their biggest detractor. However, the second bag fee was first introduced by UA and the first bag fee was first introduced by AA. Then everyone else (including US) followed. Yes, they had the BoB soda and water but the checked bag fees were certainly not US's idea.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Dc10s2hnl
Posted 2009-05-16 18:43:19 and read 7289 times.



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 125):
AA's Bistro Bags

Too bad these didn't stick around; there was less work for the f/a's and less catering equipment and weight on the plane... but now we don't have to worry about that problem on domestic flights anymore!  Wink

Doesn't CO still hand out free meals on domestic flights, similar to a bistro bag?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-16 19:01:15 and read 7263 times.



Quoting Dc10s2hnl (Reply 128):

Delta had a similar program a couple years ago. I don't remember what it was called but there was usually a cart set up right by the boarding door and each passenger would simply take a bag with them on board. The problem was 7 times out of 20, the gate agent wouldn't make an announcement about it and passengers would walk right by it not knowing what it was for (just my experience).

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: RB211
Posted 2009-05-16 19:46:36 and read 7212 times.

Delta's "Mullen" livery.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: TDubJFK
Posted 2009-05-16 20:13:23 and read 7175 times.



Quoting SirSheldon (Reply 90):
Roots Air in Canada.

Even the name is idiotic.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-16 20:51:06 and read 7109 times.



Quoting RB211 (Reply 130):
Delta's "Mullen" livery

I actually much favored the Wavy Gravy over the current one and the Ron Allen colors. Simple but a professional look.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: TDubJFK
Posted 2009-05-17 09:18:36 and read 6787 times.

I worked at US during the 90s and my vote for another "Not-So-Great-Idea" was the weird codeshare thing BA and US did during the 90s.

It was a strange dalliance that saw US painting a 767-200 in BA colors and operate it as an actual BA flight (with USAir FAs wearing BA fllight attendant uniforms) on the BWI-LGW route. Must have confused a LOT of passengers - British ones especially!

Another oddity to come out of this unlikely union was the USAir Express (Piedmont) Dash 8 operating a "Concorde Connection" flight. It ran DCA-JFK to connect Washington area passengers with the AM Concorde departure to LHR from JFK.

A beaten up, ratty old Piedmont Dash 8-100 flying premium paying passengers to JFK to connect with Concorde. We all got kind of a laugh over that one!

-tony

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2009-05-17 09:39:39 and read 6729 times.



Quoting RB211 (Reply 130):
Delta's "Mullen" livery.

Or just Delta's Mullen. In the Airline Management Hall of Shame, he's not the worst, but I'd give him at least an associate membership.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2009-05-17 09:53:52 and read 6698 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 129):
Delta had a similar program a couple years ago. I don't remember what it was called but there was usually a cart set up right by the boarding door and each passenger would simply take a bag with them on board. The problem was 7 times out of 20, the gate agent wouldn't make an announcement about it and passengers would walk right by it not knowing what it was for (just my experience).

Delta SkyDeli. Nothing like a soggy turkey and swiss sandwich. The breakfast ones were barely much better, a rock hard bagel. I liked the snack packs they had just prior to the introduction of the EATS b.o.b. program. They were better than the SkyDeli sacks.

Quoting TDubJFK (Reply 133):
I worked at US during the 90s and my vote for another "Not-So-Great-Idea" was the weird codeshare thing BA and US did during the 90s.

It was a strange dalliance that saw US painting a 767-200 in BA colors and operate it as an actual BA flight (with USAir FAs wearing BA fllight attendant uniforms) on the BWI-LGW route. Must have confused a LOT of passengers - British ones especially!

BA did make an investment in US during that time (They owned 24.6% of USAir Group as it was called at the time, and also had three directors on the USAir board.), and the split was like a bad divorce, as US sued BA over their deal with AA. US actually gave up their route authorities to London and were operating those flights more along the lines of a wetlease for BA. Had BA not made the deal with AA (Which is what laid the foundation for the formation of the Oneworld Alliance.), perhaps US would have been one of the founding members of the alliance.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mats
Posted 2009-05-17 11:33:33 and read 6610 times.

I liked the SkyDeli, because it meant more food on shorter flights (EWR-CVG comes to mind.)

My Hall of Shame would be:

1. United's Take-Me-Along promotion, in which they sent thank you notes to those who availed themselves of the buy-one-get-one-free deal. The problem was that businessmen sometimes took their secretaries, but their wives saw the thank you note when it arrived at home.

2. Spirit Airlines' advertisement-laden aprons.

3. The various attempts at nude flights. Imagine the burns from the slides in the event of an evacuation. But it would be a sight to behold.

4. Pan Am "Alert." Each international ticket cost $5 extra for security services. These included dogs that were not trained to sniff anything, profilers who didn't speak English, and x-ray operators who didn't wear their glasses, hence Lockerbie.

5. Continental Lite.

6. TWA's paper uniforms and "sky strip" (or whatever they called it.)
And let's not forget the hideous turquoise United muu-muus. They looked especially stupid walking around O'Hare.

7. Air Canada's "On My Way" service. An insult to pretty much anyone: "We'll help you in the event of a cancellation... only if you shell out a $50 insurance policy in advance."

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Astockla
Posted 2009-05-17 11:34:35 and read 6612 times.

my two cents...

in regard to skybus:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Probably. There is a sucker born every minute after all.

Given that its a Ryanair model based airline - you're right, most of us in Europe who fly FR are suckers - but we still do it

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 60):
Virgin America

It saddens me so much to hear that they'rento doing well - having flown on VX i can safely say its by far the best domestic American airline in terms of service

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 71):
would... If they make you pay to use the john on a plane I say pee in the corner. What is the worst that could happen? In the grands scale of things you wouldn't get in that much trouble because the media would jump all over it. If the headline was "Man urinates on plane because he didn't have any cash" the public would be outraged at the airline, not the urinator

This is really starting to piss me off. That was a JOKE (MOL has admitted) that MOL decided would be good publicity - and look whats happened! Aside from anything its against the law.

Quoting CFV2 (Reply 109):

I guess building a huge airport in the middle of nowhere wasn't such a hot idea

STN, HHN (admitedly not so huge), BVS (ditto), LGW (in the olden days was in the middle of no-where, to many, it still is),

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-17 14:32:38 and read 6436 times.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 135):
perhaps US would have been one of the founding members of the alliance.

My how things COULD have been.

Quoting Mats (Reply 136):
1. United's Take-Me-Along promotion, in which they sent thank you notes to those who availed themselves of the buy-one-get-one-free deal. The problem was that businessmen sometimes took their secretaries, but their wives saw the thank you note when it arrived at home.


Doh!!

Quoting Astockla (Reply 137):

Given that its a Ryanair model based airline - you're right, most of us in Europe who fly FR are suckers - but we still do it

From the context and the thread he was responding to, he meant the investors and guys actually putting together such an idea. And yes, many say Skybus is a "Ryanair model/ operation" but they are not Ryanair hence they don't even exist anymore.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone care to explain how everything ultimately went down with Pan Am and Delta? I've heard before that DL ended up in some sort of bidding war with (inject carrier; don't remember) and ultimately ended up paying a ton of cash that they might not have had to. Also keeping them on life support and cutting the deal off in the end anyway.

DL and the 747. Great idea? Wrong timing? Wrong routes?

[Edited 2009-05-17 14:33:23]

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-17 14:46:01 and read 6411 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 138):
Anyone care to explain how everything ultimately went down with Pan Am and Delta? I've heard before that DL ended up in some sort of bidding war with (inject carrier; don't remember) and ultimately ended up paying a ton of cash that they might not have had to. Also keeping them on life support and cutting the deal off in the end anyway.

DL and the 747. Great idea? Wrong timing? Wrong routes?

If I'm not mistaken, DL ended up in a bidding war with Carl Icahn and TWA. Icahn had no real thought of buying PA, but just wanted DL to pay more.

Part of the deal was keeping PanAm on life support as a carrier to the Carribean and Central and South America, but it became evident, very soon that DL was just throwing the money into a black hole, so they withdrew their support.

As for the 747, if they had been patient another two years, when our own international flights started, it might have been a great idea. As it was, it wasn't a BAD idea....but some of the routings were odd........ORD-MIA was probably okay as well as some of those from ATL to the west coast.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-05-17 14:55:25 and read 6381 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 139):

From previous readings that what I got too. That they wanted to have the biggest and best and didn't really have the routes to fly them on.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-17 14:59:09 and read 6386 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 140):
That they wanted to have the biggest and best and didn't really have the routes to fly them on.

I believe DL got caught up in that fever that everyone had to buy the 747. At least they were able to use them on the PanAm interchange to Europe.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: RB211
Posted 2009-05-17 17:16:55 and read 6244 times.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 134):
Or just Delta's Mullen. In the Airline Management Hall of Shame, he's not the worst, but I'd give him at least an associate membership.

Or better yet an honorary doctoral.

I wish I could say baggage fees are a bad idea but then we'd all be out of business and weight restricted beyond belief!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Revelation
Posted 2009-05-18 03:46:42 and read 5918 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
And TED, and BA's go. These things never work because they either just fail, or they succeed and siphon traffic from the mainline and get shut down that way.

And what about UA's high-end version of an airline-within-an-airline? The spending on that pretty much guaranteed a trip to bankruptcy.

Quoting CFV2 (Reply 6):
Zip lasted about two years, and did nothing to stem AC's hemorrhaging of market share to WS.

You could have said it did "zip" to stem AC's hemorrhaging!  Smile

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 8):
Metrojet at BWI

The great US reservation system transition

Two very bad memories.

They would book you on Metrojet without telling you that you were flying Metrojet and that you lost your ability to exchange tickets with "traditional" UASir.

Quoting Chapavaeaa (Reply 32):
AA buying Air Cal...and eliminating most of their operation.

AA building up a BNA and RDU hub....and then dismantling them.

AA buying Reno Air and then eliminating most of their operation.

AA buying TW and dismantling the STL operation.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 54):
The problem for both Song and Ted was that they had (basically) legacy carrier costs in the LCC environment.

 checkmark 

Quoting Richierich (Reply 68):
did they really need to start a whole airline-within-an-airline to figure out that people like PTVs and simple fares? What an absolute waste of money! Yes, pulling it back and making DL mainline more "Song-like" was the best thing DL could have done after the bonehead decision (of a previous administration) to go with Song in the first place.

Indeed.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 111):
Air Fones - did anyone actually ever use those things?

I remember my boss saying in the go-go 90s he use the AirPhone to deal with a customer issue and rang up a bill of over $500, and the company did not even bat an eye at it. Ah, the good old days of the Internet Boom!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Gsoflyer
Posted 2009-05-18 05:13:50 and read 5837 times.



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 107):
I hadn't looked up any stats in gso but I did in PSM. If you're right about gso, then those two were cities where the model was working. But gso-Florida worked because it is a similar market to those flown by G4. I'm pretty sure the "bad" routes would've worked if they could connect to places in Florida and California, since that is where the majority of pax from those cities are travelling.

Portsmouth worked because they ran routes that they knew would work. I flew the GSO to PSM flight a lot and every time it was packed (though I was only on the morning flights). And that route killed the Delta and US Airways RJ service to BOS. We used to have 6-8 RJs fly up there daily, and we lost it all and the loss of Skybus didn't bring them back.

Allegiant's FLL service from here ran high loads too until Skybus killed that. Allegiant hasn't brought that back either.

Anyway, I think that Portsmouth may have been the model that worked, and Greensboro too. But the company just made boneheaded decisions like making 2 daily runs to Biloxi per day from GSO. Granted, there are gamblers here, but not that many. If there was that much demand for that leg, someone would have been serving it on another airline already. Outside of that, taking airports and areas with bad service (like Greensboro, Portsmouth, Wilmington) and making point to point runs with no connections would have worked. My personal opinion is they over-saturated routes with that "if you build it, they will come" mentality. It was like there was no market research at all.

With that said, they said they modeled themselves after Ryan Air. Great! I've flown Ryan, EasyJet and Air Berlin in Europe and they all pretty much run like Skybus did. Point to point only. And it works fine. The difference is, the European carriers run limited routes. For instance, Paderborn gets 1 flight to Stansted per day. There's a lot of weekend demand, so they get it every weekend day. During the week, it is not a daily flight. With Skybus, they not only ran every day on routes that didn't work, but ran multiple flights per day. And if you ask me, THAT was their demise.

But you're right, the GSO to Florida routes were much like Allegiant's routes. Which surprises me that Allegiant hasn't picked up the FLL and Punta Gorda flights from GSO again,

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BCAL
Posted 2009-05-18 05:46:22 and read 5756 times.



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 44):
VS never was or wanted to be a low cost carrier.

IIRC during the early days VS wanted to be a low fare carrier along the same way as Laker's Skytrain and Peoplexpress, and this was how they portrayed themselves in order to win the route licences against the competition. Branson was then always bragging about how much BA, PanAm etc charged and how VS catered for Joe Public rather than the Fat Cats. Early VS advertising claimed that the only thing cut was the fare on the flights. Consequently Branson was portrayed as the 'People's Champion'.

Quoting BAViscount (Reply 97):
but what about BA's walk-on shuttle service to Scotland in the 70s? I remember reading stories of how the F/A's sometimes actually forgot to collect fares (it was a pay on board service), and also that as you were guaranteed a seat, they sometimes had to roll out an additional aircraft just for one passenger!!

In theory it was a good idea as there was a niche market of people who wanted to travel from London to Scotland and return the same day and the airlines could provide the service. BA guaranteed that everyone would get a seat without a reservation, and this is why there was always a back-up aircraft available even if there was only one passenger left behind. At the time there was much competition between BEA/BA and the independent airlines, and the train did not offer a viable alternative. I think it was only once or maybe twice that the crew forgot to collect the fares.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: GRIVely
Posted 2009-05-18 07:29:06 and read 5649 times.

This is somewhat obscure but my own "Worst Idea" was when BA briefly had some of their aircraft configured so that seats in the middle rows of their 747's were the smoking section while the outside rows were non-smoking. That ensured that in a full flight every non-smoking aisle seat passenger was across the aisle from a smoker.

I flew with my family from NBO to LHR in Jun 1981 on an aircraft like that and it was a nightmare for us as there was a big, fat gentleman smoking a cigar sitting across from my son. I asked him politely if he could perhaps refrain from smoking or see about being reseated. He responded by blowing a lungful of smoke directly into my son's face. In not my finest moment of my life is advised my son that if the smoke was making him feel sick to please be sure and throw up on the man. My son liked the idea but, alas, didn't have the opportunity.

Upon returning home I wrote a letter to BA and they answered me back saying that careful scientific analysis had proven that to be the best solution for smoking/non-smoking on their aircraft. I notice that it didn't last too long and it soon returned to front of cabin non-smoking, back of cabin smoking. Fortunately the whole issue was overtaken by the general ban on smoking.

Regards,

the GRIV

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Saab2000
Posted 2009-05-18 07:34:02 and read 5614 times.



Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 18):
Whoever the genius was that thought you could make money with these things obviously did not complete their GED.

The irony is that the people who actually do think this stuff up are in fact fairly highly paid MBAs!

Think of an idea that loses millions? Costs customer loyalty? Destroys your hard-fought brand image? Give yourself a bonus!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: YLWbased
Posted 2009-05-18 07:35:40 and read 5616 times.



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 111):
Air Fones - did anyone actually ever use those things?

I do on every single flights i've be on in the past 5 years, as long as the aircraft have them installed. My grilfriend demanded me to call her on every flight if possible.

YLWbased

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Saab2000
Posted 2009-05-18 07:42:03 and read 5586 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 81):
Another bad idea was LX changing to Buy-on-Board in Y class on their routes within Europe a few years ago. It was totally contrary to their image as a quality carrier. And with a high proportion of LX shorthaul passengers connecting to/from their longhaul network, it resulted in very inconsistent service standards. Fortunately LX quickly realized that it was a bad idea and killed the BOB concept after about 6 months.

I remember that well. It came at the end of my time there and was a total farce. Even on the SB-20 we used to have good food and good service. They tried introducing that BOB concept and everybody, really everybody, hated it. You are right, it completely went against the service reputation people expected from a premium Swiss airline.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-05-18 07:55:28 and read 5553 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):
DL had the same issues didn't they? From what i've heard, the T7 was a God send for both AA and DL (and others).

Yes, DL did have the same issues as AA with the MD-11. Towards the end, DL was using them transatlantic instead of transpacific.

When DL bought them it was a choice of 3 MD-11s for the price of 2 747-400s and we all know what Ron Allen chose.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2009-05-18 08:06:22 and read 5534 times.



Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 144):
We used to have 6-8 RJs fly up there daily, and we lost it all and the loss of Skybus didn't bring them back.

RJs are pretty expensive. Why didn't they have mainline service?

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 144):
With that said, they said they modeled themselves after Ryan Air. Great! I've flown Ryan, EasyJet and Air Berlin in Europe and they all pretty much run like Skybus did. Point to point only. And it works fine. The difference is, the European carriers run limited routes. For instance, Paderborn gets 1 flight to Stansted per day. There's a lot of weekend demand, so they get it every weekend day. During the week, it is not a daily flight. With Skybus, they not only ran every day on routes that didn't work, but ran multiple flights per day. And if you ask me, THAT was their demise.

I agree completely. Still, there are markets that aren't large enough where you can fly nonstop but would still get a large number of people to connect in your hubs. Say there were 50 people who flew from Portsmouth to Biloxi every day. 50 people won't fill up a plane, but it's better to feed them through Greensboro than not serve them at all. I'm just a fly on the wall in the aviation industry, but I've always thought an airline should serve as many markets as possible, even if they are small.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 144):
But you're right, the GSO to Florida routes were much like Allegiant's routes. Which surprises me that Allegiant hasn't picked up the FLL and Punta Gorda flights from GSO again,

Or from PSM. Why could Skybus make it work but not Allegiant? They couldn't do anything in New England!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Yellowtail
Posted 2009-05-18 10:45:59 and read 5404 times.



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 111):
Air Fones - did anyone actually ever use those things?

I did once after I got sent on a round the USA trek by UA during one of their summer strikes.... I was flying LAX-IAH...and ended up going LAX-DFW-DEN-ORD-MSY...then CO to IAH.....

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: LVHGEL
Posted 2009-05-18 11:09:50 and read 5353 times.

Well I haven't seen it posted so here it goes:

The Pan Am / National Merger.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Revelation
Posted 2009-05-18 12:29:19 and read 5279 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last

Sexy Stewardesses in hot pants and leather boots, ala Braniff in the 70's, unfortunately falls into the "ideas that did not last" category.

Paging Superfly....

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: SalMonela
Posted 2009-05-18 13:14:08 and read 5193 times.

How about DL's DFW hub? How many years did that bleed huge cash just because someone's ego couldn't admit it was a turkey?

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Enilria
Posted 2009-05-18 13:34:52 and read 5156 times.



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 4):
Now, Independence Air, that was stupid. Low Fares from a high cost airport on 50 seat CRJ's?

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

That's my candidate. Also the circumstances are worse than XJET. Independence Air chose to try to run UA out of their own hub with "UA's" own airplanes. How moronic was that? FLYI chose to implement their stupid business plan. It wasn't forced on them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
And ExpressJet. I knew that one was going downhill from day 1.

In the case of XJET, they really didn't have many choices. CO just dumped a ton of planes on them and they put them in uncompetitive markets where in theory they could charge high fares. It was destined to fail. You have to have hubs in this industry to build frequent flyer loyalty. At least XJET's choice of uncompetitive, high-fare markets showed an iota of intelligence, FLYI was a LOW-FARE carrier flying RJs!!! ROTFL

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: JA
Posted 2009-05-18 14:01:57 and read 5096 times.



Quoting Enilria (Reply 156):
FLYI was a LOW-FARE carrier flying RJs!!! ROTFL

In today's revenue environment, that could work.

1) You don't need to fly to the costliest airports. It is cheaper to tell passengers how to find the cheaper ones.

2) You charge for bags.

3) You charge for website usage (convenience fee).

4) You charge for food.

5) You charge for priority boarding.

6) You avoid putting 12 flights out of the gate on a single route.

7) No crazy $29 fares.


50 seaters can prove markets. Then, you bring in the bigger jets later. If they hadn't overflown in the beginning, they might still be around.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: SQ_EK_freak
Posted 2009-05-18 14:04:51 and read 5091 times.



Quoting TDubJFK (Reply 133):
It was a strange dalliance that saw US painting a 767-200 in BA colors and operate it as an actual BA flight (with USAir FAs wearing BA fllight attendant uniforms) on the BWI-LGW route. Must have confused a LOT of passengers - British ones especially!

Or how about that partnership with SR-DL-SQ? Didn't they have some sort of agreement whereby they crewed certain flights with FAs from the three airlines? I think I read somewhere that not only did it confuse the hell out of passengers, but the crew had a difficult time working with one another - can you imagine the clashes in personality between those three sets of crew working on one aircraft!? Talk about different corporate cultures!

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Maxpower1954
Posted 2009-05-18 16:59:17 and read 4924 times.



Quoting LVHGEL (Reply 153):
Well I haven't seen it posted so here it goes:

The Pan Am / National Merger.

A bad idea to start with - National was a great airline, but had an unusual Florida/Northeast
Florida/West Coast route system. About the only city they flew to that wasn't in sight of the ocean was Las Vegas.

And the execution of the merger was even worse.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Gsoflyer
Posted 2009-05-19 05:29:45 and read 4644 times.



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 151):
I agree completely. Still, there are markets that aren't large enough where you can fly nonstop but would still get a large number of people to connect in your hubs. Say there were 50 people who flew from Portsmouth to Biloxi every day. 50 people won't fill up a plane, but it's better to feed them through Greensboro than not serve them at all. I'm just a fly on the wall in the aviation industry, but I've always thought an airline should serve as many markets as possible, even if they are small.

And if you ask me, they should have run 1 stop flights rather than connections in that case. Keeps cost down, and adds capacity. Portsmouth to Richmond to Biloxi or something. That would probably fill the plane.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 151):
RJs are pretty expensive. Why didn't they have mainline service?

US Airways and Delta ran shuttles to Boston for commuters. There is enough O&D. They are expensive, but it was high yield at that time. The flights to MCO, I can't say. They are done and aren't coming back. Allegiant is almost running daily to Sanford now.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 151):
Or from PSM. Why could Skybus make it work but not Allegiant? They couldn't do anything in New England!

The only thing I can figure with GSO going to FLL/Punta Gordo and New England on Allegiant is that there aren't enough people choosing vacation packages and only choosing flights. Allegiant makes their money off the packages and not flights. Only a guess though.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2009-05-19 05:31:45 and read 4637 times.

I always find it funny that "armchair CEOs" criticise what has been done yet don't get into the business themselves and try to do things better. Most odd.

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: ItalianFlyer
Posted 2009-05-19 06:12:45 and read 4554 times.



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 161):
I always find it funny that "armchair CEOs" criticise what has been done yet don't get into the business themselves and try to do things better. Most odd.

Because it is easy to see the folly after the fact. ...its just human nature.

Did anyone mention the double narrowbody jetbridge test that UA tried in DEN? It ended up damaging a few planes....oops. Now allot of ramp people saw that coming,

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: AA777223
Posted 2009-05-19 07:18:04 and read 4462 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
AA acquiring the MD11 altogether. A plane that severely under-performed to their expectations. Hoping it would fly JFK-NRT, AA ended up having to run a short-lived SEA-NRT, as that was seemingly one of the only transpac routes the MD11 could make unrestricted.

I'm pretty sure those were intended for DFW-NRT

Topic: RE: Not So Great Airline Ideas That Did Not Work/Last
Username: Enilria
Posted 2009-05-19 07:27:51 and read 4450 times.



Quoting JA (Reply 157):
50 seaters can prove markets. Then, you bring in the bigger jets later. If they hadn't overflown in the beginning, they might still be around.

I hear you with the fees, but I think you are still misguided on CRJ operating costs. You can't have roundtrip fares under $300 on even the shortest stage lengths and make money. To me that is not an LCC or low fare.


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