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Topic: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-05-28 08:53:23 and read 9386 times.

Anyone knows how many 757s has AA converted to long-haul so far? AA is starting MIA-SSA-REC on 757 soon. By now they must have several birds reconfigured. Also, what about the status of the rest of the 757 fleet? It desperately needs a make-over!!! This initiative seems to be taking forever.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2009-05-28 19:00:06 and read 9118 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Thread starter):
Anyone knows how many 757s has AA converted to long-haul so far?

Four.

Quoting PRAirbus (Thread starter):
Also, what about the status of the rest of the 757 fleet?

The domestic CIP (cabin improvement project) has been delayed, but not canceled. The company said it is currently evaluating the project timeline and reassured the project is not dead. No date was given on when to expect the program to begin.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Moman
Posted 2009-05-29 06:41:54 and read 8926 times.



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 1):
The domestic CIP (cabin improvement project) has been delayed, but not canceled. The company said it is currently evaluating the project timeline and reassured the project is not dead. No date was given on when to expect the program to begin.

At the rate this 5-year overdue project is going, they will complete the upgrade just weeks before these birds head to the desert.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2009-05-29 06:52:09 and read 8904 times.

Don't hold your breath.  banghead  It seems that every time someone mentions it in these forums it has been pushed back again. Maybe if we stopped discussing it the date will finally come.  biggrin 

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2009-05-29 08:47:12 and read 8776 times.

My hope is that one of the issues being worked out is the original CIP schedule. It was to take five years to complete the fleet initially. While the project is substantially behind the original prototype date of October 2008, hopefully the new schedule will have the a/c being completed at a much more brisk pace. While we're delayed now, hopefully the project will be completed within two years of starting, not five.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: AF022
Posted 2009-05-29 09:31:39 and read 8738 times.

Is AA putting winglets on their 757s?

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Longhornmaniac
Posted 2009-05-29 09:40:16 and read 8719 times.



Quoting AF022 (Reply 5):

All of them already have winglets.

Cheers,
Cameron

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-05-29 10:45:27 and read 8640 times.

Thanks to all for the input. Like someone already mentioned...if the project is so delayed I guess it is a fact to assume that not all AA 757s will get modified. Perhaps the oldest ones won't unless even their oldest 757s will still have another good 10yrs of life span. How old is AA's oldest 757? Almost 20yrs???

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2009-05-29 11:15:47 and read 8606 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 7):
Almost 20yrs???

Just about... AA's first 757 was delivered July 17, 1989. So, in about a month and a half she'll celebrate her 20th birthday. For comparison, the last 757 delivered new to AA was on April 30, 2002.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: AF022
Posted 2009-05-29 11:56:14 and read 8549 times.

How long did the retrofit take, and how much did it cost? If all AA 757s have winglets that is a serious amount of money, no?

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: DTW757
Posted 2009-05-29 13:19:08 and read 8474 times.

Here are a couple of photos I took of the new first class cabin.

Big version: Width: 2816 Height: 2112 File size: 701kb


Big version: Width: 2816 Height: 2112 File size: 758kb

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Flyby519
Posted 2009-05-29 15:07:25 and read 8381 times.

My guess is that the program will be put into full swing if AA/BA/IB get approved for antitrust immunity(decision coming this November I think). Otherwise, don't hold your breath.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: American 767
Posted 2009-05-29 18:19:51 and read 8255 times.



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 8):
the last 757 delivered new to AA was on April 30, 2002.

It was EXACTLY when the last 727 was retired, Apr 30th 2002. I know it's a bit off topic, but I mention this because it's a coincidence.

Ben Soriano

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2009-05-29 19:05:20 and read 8220 times.



Quoting Flyby519 (Reply 11):
My guess is that the program will be put into full swing if AA/BA/IB get approved for antitrust immunity(decision coming this November I think). Otherwise, don't hold your breath.

You may be confusing the domestic CIP (cabin improvement project) with the international 757 (TATL) project, or 75L a/c. These are two different initiatives, and the TATL (75L) project is in full swing with four of 18 a/c complete. The project in question here is in regards to the remaining 106 757s that will retain their current configuration (plus two first class seats) and continue flying the routes they fly today (US/Mexico/Caribbean/Central America).

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PSA727
Posted 2009-05-31 00:04:24 and read 7972 times.



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 13):
and the TATL (75L) project is in full swing with four of 18 a/c complete

What is exactly being done to the coach cabins on these birds? I flew DFW-JFK earlier in the month in coach and couldn't tell what was all changed. The seats looked like the ones on the 738s. Did they get new side panels? On the way back, I did get to fly in the BF section which was nice. The seat cushions were very firm. However, everytime I adjusted the seat to recline and go into the lay flat position, my feet would get jammed between the foot rest and the area used for the magazine storage.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: DLMD90
Posted 2009-05-31 00:14:22 and read 7963 times.



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 8):

Just about... AA's first 757 was delivered July 17, 1989. So, in about a month and a half she'll celebrate her 20th birthday. For comparison, the last 757 delivered new to AA was on April 30, 2002.

wish I was to get that one, every time I fly on an AA 757 it looks like 50 miles of rough road!

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2009-05-31 05:01:28 and read 7915 times.



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
What is exactly being done to the coach cabins on these birds? I flew DFW-JFK earlier in the month in coach and couldn't tell what was all changed. The seats looked like the ones on the 738s. Did they get new side panels?

New everything, basically. If you've flown on a new 738 (in/out of ORD in the past month), then yes, the new seats on the 757 are the same as the 738. However, the original batch of 738s have different seats (same/similar to MD-80). The coach seat you sat in on the 757 has an articulating seat bottom which is designed to give more comfort/support when reclined. The a/c also received new sidewalls, carpet, lavatories and LCD display screens over aisle, along with digital IFE.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 14):
However, everytime I adjusted the seat to recline and go into the lay flat position, my feet would get jammed between the foot rest and the area used for the magazine storage.

This is a problem, however, not as bad of one as I had expected. I wear a size 12 shoe and I was surprised my feet fit down there with my shoes on. However, I'm sure if I were wearing clunky shoes they wouldn't have. Unless you have a size 13+ foot, I think it really depends on the shoe more than the size of your feet.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-05-31 08:09:57 and read 7842 times.

AA is definitely waiting too long to refurbish its 757s. Being the workhorse it is, the refurbishment should have taken place sooner. AA really gives a bad impression when you compare its 757s to its rivals DL/CO for example. Even UA in FC is way much better...AA is truly hurting its brand with those interiors especially on Transcons and Latin America flights.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: LMP737
Posted 2009-05-31 08:19:26 and read 7828 times.



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 1):
The domestic CIP (cabin improvement project) has been delayed, but not canceled. The company said it is currently evaluating the project timeline and reassured the project is not dead. No date was given on when to expect the program to begin.

The domestic 757 CIP is supposed to start this fall as soon as the International 757 CIP is finished. Initially the plan was to do both at the same time. However they realized that in order to get the International 757 completed for the routes they were going to have to speed up the process.

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 4):
While the project is substantially behind the original prototype date of October 2008, hopefully the new schedule will have the a/c being completed at a much more brisk pace. While we're delayed now, hopefully the project will be completed within two years of starting, not five.

I don't know how long the domestic CIP is supposed to take once it's started. There won't be much of a learning curve to get over since the people working the project will have experience doing the international CIP. The only real difference between the international and domestic CIP are the first class seats, and the sliding carpet has been removed on the international 757's.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Moman
Posted 2009-05-31 09:21:53 and read 7786 times.



Quoting DLMD90 (Reply 15):
wish I was to get that one, every time I fly on an AA 757 it looks like 50 miles of rough road!

There is no difference between the first and last 757 delivered. They all have the same seats. The only difference is the sidewalls (that match the 777/737/MD-80) that are on some of the older birds and all the new birds. A quick way to tell is look at the 2L lav, if the wall is the light blue carpet, it's not been refurbed  Smile

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-05-31 12:22:58 and read 7694 times.

What is the sliding carpet???

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: LMP737
Posted 2009-05-31 12:44:35 and read 7673 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 20):
What is the sliding carpet???

It's a baggage loading system used in narrowbody aircraft like the 757. Makes loading and unloading bags a lot easier and faster.


http://www.telair.com/narrowBody_slidingCarpet.html

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-05-31 12:50:43 and read 7662 times.

I'm quoting this thread, at the bottom...I don't think it is referring to that kind of "sliding carpet". Look at last paragraph, last sentence.

LMP737 From United States, joined May 2002, 3765 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted Sun May 31 2009 11:19:26 your local time (4 hours 29 minutes 23 secs ago) and read 155 times:




Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 1):
The domestic CIP (cabin improvement project) has been delayed, but not canceled. The company said it is currently evaluating the project timeline and reassured the project is not dead. No date was given on when to expect the program to begin.

The domestic 757 CIP is supposed to start this fall as soon as the International 757 CIP is finished. Initially the plan was to do both at the same time. However they realized that in order to get the International 757 completed for the routes they were going to have to speed up the process.

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 4):
While the project is substantially behind the original prototype date of October 2008, hopefully the new schedule will have the a/c being completed at a much more brisk pace. While we're delayed now, hopefully the project will be completed within two years of starting, not five.

I don't know how long the domestic CIP is supposed to take once it's started. There won't be much of a learning curve to get over since the people working the project will have experience doing the international CIP. The only real difference between the international and domestic CIP are the first class seats, and the sliding carpet has been removed on the international 757's.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-05-31 12:52:38 and read 7656 times.

What difference would it have the "sliding carpet" on a Domestic versus Int'l 757 configuration. Isn't the exterior the same?

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2009-05-31 18:30:33 and read 7523 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 22):
What difference would it have the "sliding carpet" on a Domestic versus Int'l 757 configuration. Isn't the exterior the same?

The sliding carpet LMP737 referred to is, indeed, the baggage loading "system" on the 757. I believe it was removed on the 75L to help reduce the a/c's weight. I could be wrong with the reason, but I do recall reading in the project summary that it would be removed from those a/c.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Soxfan
Posted 2009-05-31 18:38:32 and read 7515 times.



Quoting Moman (Reply 19):
if the wall is the light blue carpet, it's not been refurbed

If my memory serves me correctly, another way to tell is to look at the sidewalls: if they are designed with lots of little brown dashes, the aircraft has not been refurbished; if the sidewalls are new, they have something resembling a flowery pattern. Also, the newer/refurbished 757s appear to have a multi-colored bulkhead wall, as well as LCD monitors that are styled somewhat differently (rounded bottom, brown frame around the monitor). Please correct me if I'm wrong; this is just what I've noticed when flying AA's 757s.  Smile

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2009-05-31 20:28:13 and read 7750 times.

For the record, no domestic 757s have been refurbished yet. 20 757s that were delivered new in 2002-2003 were delivered with the new sidewalls and carpet, yet the seats and IFE remain the same as the original build a/c. Most, if not all 757s have received a new laminate bulkhead cover, replacing the light blue carpet that was once there, and all 757s have the dark blue seat covers and carpet. But again, none of the domestic 757s have been "refurbished."

To date, there are four 757s that have been reconfigured to 75L, or TATL, a/c. These a/c, if not already equipped, will get the new sidewall laminates. Plus, they'll get all new coach seats, the NGBC product in business class, digital IFE with AVOD in J-Class only, over aisle LCD monitors and all new lavatories.

The domestic a/c will get the same enhancements, with the exception of business class. It will remain a domestic first product with all new seats, plus two additional, as a small galley in front of door 2R is being removed. This a/c will get the same laminates, carpets, IFE (minus AVOD), LCD monitors and lavatories as the 75L a/c.

Also, these a/c will have AC power outlets at all first/business class seats, as well as two outlets per three seats in main cabin.

On a side note, AA recently announced it will begin offering Inflight Theatre kits to first class pax on transcon 757 flights (BOS-LAX/SFO). The kits include an Archos 704 PED (portable electronic device) and Bose QC3 noise cancelling headphone.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Aajfksjubklyn
Posted 2009-06-03 08:03:39 and read 7517 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 17):
AA is definitely waiting too long to refurbish its 757s. Being the workhorse it is, the refurbishment should have taken place sooner. AA really gives a bad impression when you compare its 757s to its rivals DL/CO for example. Even UA in FC is way much better...AA is truly hurting its brand with those interiors especially on Transcons and Latin America flights.

I wrote AA about their 757's used domestically. They are HORRIBLE. I actually got a resposne from Lauri Curtis complementing my candid approach and that they are working on plane to upgrade them. My previous post was deleted, somehow, someway. Now that the 757's are being used at JFK more and more (SJU, MIA etc), I am seriously thinking of using another airline. On my last trip to LAS, they light cover in the restroom feel on me..It was was hysterical. The bathrooms are original as delivered, as are the first class seats which look as retro as an Art Deco building, only without any appreciation for them. The planes are in bad shape, throughout. From the wall panels, to the foam gaskets falling out at cabin seperators, to window shades that have a mind of their own. Its embarrasing. Like a bad Greyhound bus...which look better these days then an AA 757

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Tommy767
Posted 2009-06-03 09:42:30 and read 7421 times.



Quoting Aajfksjubklyn (Reply 27):
I wrote AA about their 757's used domestically. They are HORRIBLE. I actually got a resposne from Lauri Curtis complementing my candid approach and that they are working on plane to upgrade them. My previous post was deleted, somehow, someway. Now that the 757's are being used at JFK more and more (SJU, MIA etc), I am seriously thinking of using another airline. On my last trip to LAS, they light cover in the restroom feel on me..It was was hysterical. The bathrooms are original as delivered, as are the first class seats which look as retro as an Art Deco building, only without any appreciation for them. The planes are in bad shape, throughout. From the wall panels, to the foam gaskets falling out at cabin seperators, to window shades that have a mind of their own. Its embarrasing. Like a bad Greyhound bus...which look better these days then an AA 757

I flew on two AA 757s this past weekend from MCO-MIA-EWR. They are the pits. If you fly on one of DL's newly configured 757s with PTVs it is seriously night and day. I have even flown on UA's 757 and they seem to be in better shape. I recall that they replaced the sidewall fluorescent which make the cabin look much brighter and inviting. AA still has the old bulbs which are fading or burn out and were delivered with the a/c originally. They were supposed to get started in late 2008, and all that they have done are 4 int'l 757s. It's getting really pathetic.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-06-03 13:19:28 and read 7295 times.

AA CEO and its gang will rather earn more bonuses than investing on the fleet. It is a shame...they do not care about passengers, all they want is $$$. Silly, since profits are also linked to good service and a positive perception. AA has dropped the ball with its 757s. At this rate, I guess we will not see a "Domestic 757" refurbished until all 18 TATL (long-haul 757s) are completed...another 6-9 months????

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: DLMD90
Posted 2009-06-03 13:53:32 and read 7247 times.



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 28):

Quoting Aajfksjubklyn (Reply 27):
I wrote AA about their 757's used domestically. They are HORRIBLE. I actually got a resposne from Lauri Curtis complementing my candid approach and that they are working on plane to upgrade them. My previous post was deleted, somehow, someway. Now that the 757's are being used at JFK more and more (SJU, MIA etc), I am seriously thinking of using another airline. On my last trip to LAS, they light cover in the restroom feel on me..It was was hysterical. The bathrooms are original as delivered, as are the first class seats which look as retro as an Art Deco building, only without any appreciation for them. The planes are in bad shape, throughout. From the wall panels, to the foam gaskets falling out at cabin seperators, to window shades that have a mind of their own. Its embarrasing. Like a bad Greyhound bus...which look better these days then an AA 757

I flew on two AA 757s this past weekend from MCO-MIA-EWR. They are the pits. If you fly on one of DL's newly configured 757s with PTVs it is seriously night and day. I have even flown on UA's 757 and they seem to be in better shape. I recall that they replaced the sidewall fluorescent which make the cabin look much brighter and inviting. AA still has the old bulbs which are fading or burn out and were delivered with the a/c originally. They were supposed to get started in late 2008, and all that they have done are 4 int'l 757s. It's getting really pathetic.

I have flown more trips than I care to remember on AA's 757s and I could not believe how beat up they were, I also decided to switch all my travel to Delta, to Tommy767's point, their 757's are night and day to AA's...as with most of DL's a/c they are clean, newly reconfigured and no holes in the panels! I survived AA, you can too! Switch!

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2009-06-03 13:58:06 and read 7227 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 17):
AA is definitely waiting too long to refurbish its 757s. Being the workhorse it is, the refurbishment should have taken place sooner. AA really gives a bad impression when you compare its 757s to its rivals DL/CO for example. Even UA in FC is way much better...AA is truly hurting its brand with those interiors especially on Transcons and Latin America flights.

The 757s were supposed to be refurbished earlier in this decade, since the MD-80s were refurbsihed, and the 767s received the coach seats with the adjustable headrests. IIRC, no start date had been announced for the refurbishment program

September 11th did such a number of AA's financial health that the program was shelved.

Now, here's something I've wondered. AA took delivery of a fair number of 757s from 1999 onward. At the same time, AA was also taking delivery of 737s and 777s. The 737s and 777s were delivered with the coach seats that were being installed in the MD-80s, and the 737s were delivered with first class seats similar to the new seats in the MD-80s.

Why didn't the newer 757s get the same seats?

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-03 14:00:46 and read 7257 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 29):
AA CEO and its gang will rather earn more bonuses than investing on the fleet.

Have you simply not read?

AA will be refurbing their entire 757 fleet. Yes, it's taking time, but just like Delta has put off refrubing their unacceptable 763s due to the economy, AA is putting off refurbing their unacceptable 752s. They will wait for the 75L conversions to be over, and that's still on track for Dec09/Jan10.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: RB211
Posted 2009-06-03 14:15:11 and read 7175 times.

AME will gradually revamp the 752's. Right now there is not one aircraft that would even begin to replace it given what it is capable of doing. The 757 is a 727, A320, Tu-204's worst nightmare, E TOPS and all. The 75's will be around a while longer. Not that Airbus or even Tupeolov builds an inferior product (even thought it reminds me of a 204 with the winglets and RR engines), but overall it's cheaper to keep her. How many people do you know that would do a 738 or 739 Trans Atlantic?? Folks are already complain about doing it in a 757. (Obviously they never did it in a 707.) What a/c would or could fill that gap in a short amount of time. And at least on an AA 752, you don't have to worry about someone having been on the plane for 36 hours without a shower, toothpaste or deodorant! LOL

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-06-03 16:16:08 and read 7099 times.

Yes, I read. I believe it is taking too long for those birds to look decent; taking a 5+hr flight on an AA 757 is not pleasant (MIA-VVI, MIA-SFO, SJU-LAX, SJU-ORD or DFW); they SUCK!

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-06-03 16:54:06 and read 7045 times.



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 26):
The domestic a/c will get the same enhancements, with the exception of business class. It will remain a domestic first product with all new seats, plus two additional, as a small galley in front of door 2R is being removed.

I don't work in the airline industry, so I'm not sure which is the "right" side and which is the "left" side.  Smile

Let me try and clarify, though. I believe the extra row in the domestic first cabin will be added behind seats 5A/B. That would mean that the little closet that is currently directly in back of 5A/B will be removed to make room for the additional row in F.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-06-03 19:34:39 and read 6961 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 29):
AA CEO and its gang will rather earn more bonuses than investing on the fleet. It is a shame

Uh, sorry, but Gerard Arpey's (and all the other senior officers') stock options are in absolutely no way whatsoever related to the 757 refurbishment. One does not in any way preclude the other for one simple reason that so much of AA's labor still continues to ignore: stock options are not cash.

757 refurbishments are. Paying the money to tear down and rebuild the interiors on nearly all of AA's 120+ 757s will cost tens of millions of dollars and take months to do - even if occurring on the most expeditious schedule possible. That means large, real cash costs - not stock options that have absolutely no effect on AA's bank account.

So it's not that the executives' bonuses have been preventing investment in the 757. Little things like, among others, 18 months of historic high fuel prices and five years of vastly uncompetitive labor costs - both of these are really, really big cash costs - have been what has prevented 757 refurbishment.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 34):
Yes, I read. I believe it is taking too long for those birds to look decent; taking a 5+hr flight on an AA 757 is not pleasant (MIA-VVI, MIA-SFO, SJU-LAX, SJU-ORD or DFW); they SUCK!

Oh, you'll get no argument here. As someone who has spent a fair portion of my life in the back half of 757s, I am not going to dispute that the cabins most of them have truly do suck. But it still doesn't change the fact that Arpey's stock options have nothing to do with it.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-06-03 19:58:09 and read 6915 times.



Quoting Moman (Reply 2):
At the rate this 5-year overdue project is going, they will complete the upgrade just weeks before these birds head to the desert.

By the time they are complete, the next round of upgrades and enhancements of their competitors will be beginning...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
AA will be refurbing their entire 757 fleet. Yes, it's taking time, but just like Delta has put off refrubing their unacceptable 763s due to the economy, AA is putting off refurbing their unacceptable 752s. They will wait for the 75L conversions to be over, and that's still on track for Dec09/Jan10.

The question is, how long have they been putting it off which is the whole florury of the discussion. I haven't flown AA in about 10 year so I don't really know much about them but with Delta, the current complaint is the lack of IFE on the 763ERs. They are well into cabin retro-fit for both the ERs and non ERs which are already getting nose to tail AVOD. I've found the leather coach seat backs on the international 763s to be low but they are in full swing.

It actually is quite alarming at the rate they have been completing the cabin refurbishment on their ENITRE fleet from the MD88s up. Now, with wifi complete on all MD88s which is about 33% of the whole fleet and mods in full swing on domestic the domestic 757s and MD90s. Expected completion is the middle to latter part of 2009 with NW a/c completed in 2010.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MoMan
Posted 2009-06-03 22:52:32 and read 6842 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 37):
The question is, how long have they been putting it off which is the whole florury of the discussion. I haven't flown AA in about 10 year so I don't really know much about them but with Delta, the current complaint is the lack of IFE on the 763ERs. They are well into cabin retro-fit for both the ERs and non ERs which are already getting nose to tail AVOD. I've found the leather coach seat backs on the international 763s to be low but they are in full swing.

It's clear that Delta puts a much higher priority on their brand and image than AA. Flying DL vs AA is night vs. day, but as long as AA keeps putting me in the front rows of the aircraft, I'll keep funneling them my money.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: JFKPurser
Posted 2009-06-04 13:49:30 and read 6662 times.

The lack of attention to the 757 fleet over the last few years in inexcusable. Passengers often are forced to spend 5-6 hours in these filthy, corwded cabins. The lavs are disgusting. The carpets are old and filthy. The seats ancient and uncomfortable. Entertainment is pathetic. No pillows, and often blankets are provisioned at about 30%. Buy on board junk food is bringing diabetes, malnutrition, preservatives and dehydration to a passenger near you. This is pAAr for the course, however, and frontline employees will be told "You are the KEY!" and continue to be asked to make apologies and excuses for AA's managerial laziness and incompetence. Still no contracts for employees. Management continues to cash in. What else is new?

[Edited 2009-06-04 13:54:05]

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2009-06-04 14:35:36 and read 6601 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
AA will be refurbing their entire 757 fleet. Yes, it's taking time, but just like Delta has put off refrubing their unacceptable 763s due to the economy, AA is putting off refurbing their unacceptable 752s. They will wait for the 75L conversions to be over, and that's still on track for Dec09/Jan10.

DL's 763ERs aren't that bad; DL has at least replaced the old CRTs/projectors with LCDs, and has also done the usual leather seat, cool white lighting, and signage upgrades, along with the refurbished lavatories. AA's 752s are in much worse shape, with hardly any upgrades at all other than the extended overhead bins.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-04 14:39:56 and read 6605 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 40):
DL's 763ERs aren't that bad; DL has at least replaced the old CRTs/projectors with LCDs, and has also done the usual leather seat, cool white lighting, and signage upgrades, along with the refurbished lavatories. AA's 752s are in much worse shape, with hardly any upgrades at all other than the extended overhead bins.

The 757 upgrades have begun, with four converted. LCD TV's, brand-new seats in coach, new sidewalls, etc., etc. It just so happens that the first 18 will be internationally-configured.

Also, are DL's long-haul 763s getting leather? That's just idiotic. Leather on a long flight is not comfortable.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2009-06-04 14:44:08 and read 6566 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
Also, are DL's long-haul 763s getting leather? That's just idiotic. Leather on a long flight is not comfortable.

DL's entire fleet is getting leather. I much prefer leather to cloth, as it presents a more prestigous image (since when do you see luxury cars with cloth seats?), as well as the fact that it is much easier to clean (I wouldn't want to be an unlucky person whose seat was previously sat on by a foul reeking passenger).

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-04 14:51:34 and read 6567 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 42):
as it presents a more prestigous image (since when do you see luxury cars with cloth seats?),

Since when do you see business or first class seats with full leather? Answer: Rarely.

Who cares about prestige over comfort? You don't sit in a luxury car for 12 hours straight.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-06-04 15:01:06 and read 6524 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
Also, are DL's long-haul 763s getting leather? That's just idiotic. Leather on a long flight is not comfortable.

Personal opinion. I've flown on both. It's all a matter of how comfortable the seat itself is IMO. I do prefer "fluffy" cloth like that found on UA which is another huge argument in here about the T7 but I would take DL's leather seat ANY DAY over the rock hard paper thin cloth seats found on AA and others.

Also like to comment that I misspoke although simple math by anyone would have caught it. The Mad Dog fleet (88s and 90s) is about 28% not 33. I don't know where I got that number from. And to add, to date, the entire 90 fleet is complete...apparently I miss spoke on the time frame of wifi also. Planned completion for the domestic fleet is Summer/Fall 2009 with the NW fleet some time in 2010.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-04 15:06:17 and read 6551 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 44):
I would take DL's leather seat ANY DAY over the rock hard paper thin cloth seats found on AA and others.

It's not very fair to compare DL's new product versus AA's old product. AA's new 757 slim-line seats are quite comfortable. And, yes, the old 757 seats are terrible.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 44):
Personal opinion.

Well, yes, it is, but then again I doubt many people have a preference to being stuck to the leather, which is what typically happens when you sit on leather for a long period of time.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Skedguy
Posted 2009-06-04 15:17:08 and read 6517 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 42):
as it presents a more prestigous image (since when do you see luxury cars with cloth seats?),

Since when do you see business or first class seats with full leather? Answer: Rarely.

Who cares about prestige over comfort? You don't sit in a luxury car for 12 hours straight.

I couldn't agree more. Take a look at the seats in many of WN's older 733s and 735s, which are adorned with so-called "prestigious" leather and convince me that those seats look more top-shelf than some of OA carriers' cloth seats. The perception of leather is certainly one of luxury, but from a day-to-day operations standpoint, I'm not convinced that they age any better than cloth seats.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-06-04 15:22:06 and read 6502 times.



Quoting Skedguy (Reply 46):
The perception of leather is certainly one of luxury, but from a day-to-day operations standpoint, I'm not convinced that they age any better than cloth seats.

That's the answer. "Day to day operation". As someone pointed out. They are much easier to clean. DL also found that the seats are actually lighter than the old cloth seats. Weight savings. It's all about the dollors when everything comes down to it. Notice no cigarette trays? Not because we don't allow smoking on flights since forever being the only reason but weight.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-06-04 15:57:25 and read 6476 times.

Funny, I do think leather is better and looks nicer, modern. I have experienced DL longhaul and did not find the leather seats uncomfortable at all. They looked better and I guess they are easier to maintain and clean. Not long ago, AA told its FAs on a company forum that they would not install leather on AA fleet because it was heavier than cloth resulting on extra weight for the aircraft. I find that hard to believe...I guess AA is just being cheap. It seems leather is the trend for many carriers (LH, BA, IB shorthaul, DL, B6, WN and so on). It leather was that bad why would all these airlines go for it??? AA needs to upgrade its fabric look; makes the aircraft cabins look dark and dated. Don't get me started on the mismatched seat covers flying around after a seat cover is changed due to a spill; I've sat on several. With leather, that problem is solved. I've been on flights delayed due to a wet seat cover/cushion because a "ramper" has not showed up with the new cover...with leather, no need for that.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2009-06-04 19:01:22 and read 6376 times.



Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 39):
The lack of attention to the 757 fleet over the last few years in inexcusable. Passengers often are forced to spend 5-6 hours in these filthy, corwded cabins. The lavs are disgusting. The carpets are old and filthy. The seats ancient and uncomfortable. Entertainment is pathetic. No pillows, and often blankets are provisioned at about 30%. Buy on board junk food is bringing diabetes, malnutrition, preservatives and dehydration to a passenger near you. This is pAAr for the course, however, and frontline employees will be told "You are the KEY!" and continue to be asked to make apologies and excuses for AA's managerial laziness and incompetence. Still no contracts for employees. Management continues to cash in. What else is new?

With all due respect, you have only yourself to blame. Even without the wage increase you are seeking in current contract negotiations, you are the highest paid FA's among the Big 3. If over the last five years you had been paid what the Pursers or FA's make at Delta and United, AA would have already refurbished the 757 aircraft just with what they would have saved on your current contract alone. So, ironically, "you are the key" in more ways than one.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-06-04 19:11:48 and read 6365 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 45):
It's not very fair to compare DL's new product versus AA's old product. AA's new 757 slim-line seats are quite comfortable. And, yes, the old 757 seats are terrible.

Actually, I think it is quite fair, since the installation of DL's new product will be complete this year, but the installation of AA's new product won't be complete for at least 5 more years. Therefore, for the vast majority of passengers flying AA domestically, there is no "new" AA product, rather, the "current" AA product, so the comparison to DL is valid, in my opinion.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-05 00:38:55 and read 6271 times.



Quoting N62NA (Reply 50):

Actually, I think it is quite fair, since the installation of DL's new product will be complete this year, but the installation of AA's new product won't be complete for at least 5 more years.

There is currently no set timeline, and installation will be sped up considerably when economic conditions improve. It is very possible the 757 fleet will be complete by summer 2011.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-06-05 01:34:52 and read 6236 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
Also, are DL's long-haul 763s getting leather? That's just idiotic. Leather on a long flight is not comfortable.

All Delta aircraft have leather now.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):
Who cares about prestige over comfort? You don't sit in a luxury car for 12 hours straight.

It has good and bad sides. Its easy to clean and doesn't smell bad(ever got the seat that smelled like the person in it before hadn't had a good shower in a few years?) but the leather does get sticky when you get hot.(though my last trip (ATL-SFO) in Y wasn't to bad)
I do miss the old Y covers.

As for the PTVs IMO its going to depend on what Y seat delta goes with. If they want that cozy seat thing they they will more than like just wait till they come if they don't then they will have to put the same seats that are on the 737s and 763As. the 76ER seats are to short for PTVs.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Aajfksjubklyn
Posted 2009-06-05 05:15:21 and read 6185 times.

According to AA, the interior refurb's on the domestic product will extend out through December 2015. Thats a VERY long time. Thats a lot of customer's lost. You should hear what I hear about the condition of these birds.....not anything good thats for sure. My source was a letter written in response to me by AA when I "described my observations" on my last fligth on these terrible birds. In addition to the refurb schedule, it was also indicated that they are trying to expedite the schedule and have this happen faster. By 2015 the walls will be falling off the sides, and the window shades stuck in whatever position thet were last in...oh..thats actually happening now!!

ITS a disgrace no matter how you look at it.....there is no justification for the condition of those airplanes in anyway. They are downright nasty.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: ChopperJohnNYC
Posted 2009-06-05 05:36:56 and read 6164 times.

can't believe this thread is here...

just had my first ride in an AA 757 JFK-MIA. wow. dingy. dirty. honestly, sad. even my wife- who could care less- was "appalled" at the condition of the airplane.

CRT monitors on the ceiling? really?? Didn't know they still existed! Sat FC on the way back- leather seats literally coming apart at the seams.

not sure why they wouldn't do a complete refurb when they installed the winglets. (now you can sit in a dingy airplane longer and farther!) I understand this horse is beaten, and that fixup is in the works (6 more years??) but AA should know that they totally missed the boat here.

I admit, spoiled and biased as a CO Gold- but they did it right. I look for their 75's on the schedule...

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-06-05 06:28:57 and read 6128 times.

Sad but true, all said about AA 757s is mostly accurate. A few brand new 738s won't make much of a difference and they are isolated to ORD-West Coast operations. AA needs to prioritize and speed up the 757 refurbishment. Regardless of pay and contract issues, DL offers a much better product than AA; especially domestically. Not even DL's planes look better, you get a wider variety of free snacks and upgraded food for purchase in Coach. If you are blessed to fly on a DL plane with PTV it's a real treat. Keep in mind DL went bankrupt and gutted employees' pensions and pay. AA hasn't gone bankrupt but that didn't prevent CEO to take away $$$ from employees' pockets too. AA can afford a complete refurbishment of its 757 fleet however it seems that lately they wait too long to act on passenger perception issues than financial matters. If it's cost cutting AA is ahead of everyone; for enhancing the inflight experience, AA waits and see...too bad!

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: JFKPurser
Posted 2009-06-05 07:52:45 and read 6087 times.



Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 49):
With all due respect, you have only yourself to blame. Even without the wage increase you are seeking in current contract negotiations, you are the highest paid FA's among the Big 3. If over the last five years you had been paid what the Pursers or FA's make at Delta and United, AA would have already refurbished the 757 aircraft just with what they would have saved on your current contract alone. So, ironically, "you are the key" in more ways than one.

So, it sounds like what you are saying is that, if AA's unions all agreed to take another pay cut, AA would speed up the 757 refurb schedule. And that the lousiness of AA's overall product is the unions' responsibility. This kind of pretzel logic tells me that you must be AA management. I'm laughuing out loud at you at my computer right now, because this is the most ridiculous thing I have every heard.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MoMan
Posted 2009-06-05 08:16:18 and read 6061 times.

I found it amusing that United is looking for an order to replace "aging 757 aircraft" and AA is talking about a 6-year refub cycle for their 757 aircraft. If they stick to the schedule, I'll put money down that the entire fleet will never get the upgrade as some will be retired between 2015-2020, so why upgrade a plane that only has a few years left?

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Aajfksjubklyn
Posted 2009-06-05 09:37:36 and read 5970 times.



Quoting ChopperJohnNYC (Reply 54):
can't believe this thread is here...

just had my first ride in an AA 757 JFK-MIA. wow. dingy. dirty. honestly, sad. even my wife- who could care less- was "appalled" at the condition of the airplane.

CRT monitors on the ceiling? really?? Didn't know they still existed! Sat FC on the way back- leather seats literally coming apart at the seams.

not sure why they wouldn't do a complete refurb when they installed the winglets. (now you can sit in a dingy airplane longer and farther!) I understand this horse is beaten, and that fixup is in the works (6 more years??) but AA should know that they totally missed the boat here.

I admit, spoiled and biased as a CO Gold- but they did it right. I look for their 75's on the schedule...

Write to them and tell them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Aajfksjubklyn
Posted 2009-06-05 09:47:17 and read 5958 times.

When details become erroded it only shows that they are pushing their crap product as far as the customers will let it occur...... Like the 757's in general, the horrible crap soap that replaced Temple Spa in their lavs (the new soap is horrible), three slices of fruit in a plate w/ breakfast...If I wasnt platinum and a million miler, I would be flying Delta. They have a well rounded product that consider's everyone. AA has to be loosing customers with these planes...has to be. Not many high paying fliers are willing to sit in those conditions. Once again, corporate America sitting behind a desk not knowing what is really up in the sky. Its a shame, total shame. If their product was better, and offered something, as example (a clean plane, a snack etc), fliers wouldn't be flying JetBlue to SJU as they now are if AA paid attention and had a product that people would be willing to fork out a few extra bucks for.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: JFKPurser
Posted 2009-06-05 09:53:51 and read 5948 times.



Quoting Aajfksjubklyn (Reply 59):
When details become erroded it only shows that they are pushing their crap product as far as the customers will let it occur...... Like the 757's in general, the horrible crap soap that replaced Temple Spa in their lavs (the new soap is horrible), three slices of fruit in a plate w/ breakfast...If I wasnt platinum and a million miler, I would be flying Delta. They have a well rounded product that consider's everyone. AA has to be loosing customers with these planes...has to be. Not many high paying fliers are willing to sit in those conditions. Once again, corporate America sitting behind a desk not knowing what is really up in the sky. Its a shame, total shame. If their product was better, and offered something, as example (a clean plane, a snack etc), fliers wouldn't be flying JetBlue to SJU as they now are if AA paid attention and had a product that people would be willing to fork out a few extra bucks for.

Aajfksjubklyn -- I agree with everything you are saying. Your frustration is echoed by everyone at AA who serves you. Please excuse us for our inability to maintain an adequate level of enthusiasm in the way we deliver this abysmal product to you and your fellow seatmates. We are just as sick of it as you are, embarrassed and sad that the company for which we once so proudly and tirelessly worked has become the joke it is today.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Tommy767
Posted 2009-06-05 10:17:19 and read 5949 times.



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 31):
September 11th did such a number of AA's financial health that the program was shelved.

This excuse is getting VERY old. AA has the cash to at least do a slight upgrade of the 757s.

Quoting Aajfksjubklyn (Reply 59):
They have a well rounded product that consider's everyone. AA has to be loosing customers with these planes..

They've already lost me to DL. Part of the reason was bc of the crap 757s.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2009-06-05 14:03:22 and read 5811 times.



Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 56):
So, it sounds like what you are saying is that, if AA's unions all agreed to take another pay cut, AA would speed up the 757 refurb schedule. And that the lousiness of AA's overall product is the unions' responsibility. This kind of pretzel logic tells me that you must be AA management. I'm laughuing out loud at you at my computer right now, because this is the most ridiculous thing I have every heard.


No, what I am saying is that you are overpaid given the industry standard for the kind of work you do. That industry standard was set by Delta and United during their bankruptcy proceedings. The wage rates for FA's at Delta and United are lower than those at American. United's FA lost their pensions in bankruptcy. You still have yours.

Now, because AA has been paying you more than the industry standard for your kind of work it could not afford to do other things with its cash. The money all comes from the same place. There isn't one pot of gold for airplane refurbishments and another, much larger one to pay the employees what they think they are worth, regardless of the industry standard.

Given this reality, you would think that you would see the irony of criticizing your employer for not rushing to refurbish the 757 fleet. Instead, with tongue hardly in cheek, you lament how difficult it is to have to constantly make excuses for a deteriorating product. Well, you know what. Instead of investing in new interiors for the 757, AA put all of its money in you. You are the brand new interior of that 757. And, for your sake, you better make the customer believe that too.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: JFKPurser
Posted 2009-06-05 14:38:29 and read 5784 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 62):
No, what I am saying is that you are overpaid given the industry standard for the kind of work you do. That industry standard was set by Delta and United during their bankruptcy proceedings. The wage rates for FA's at Delta and United are lower than those at American. United's FA lost their pensions in bankruptcy. You still have yours.

Now, because AA has been paying you more than the industry standard for your kind of work it could not afford to do other things with its cash. The money all comes from the same place. There isn't one pot of gold for airplane refurbishments and another, much larger one to pay the employees what they think they are worth, regardless of the industry standard.

Given this reality, you would think that you would see the irony of criticizing your employer for not rushing to refurbish the 757 fleet. Instead, with tongue hardly in cheek, you lament how difficult it is to have to constantly make excuses for a deteriorating product. Well, you know what. Instead of investing in new interiors for the 757, AA put all of its money in you. You are the brand new interior of that 757. And, for your sake, you better make the customer believe that too.

This is even funnier and even more ridiculous than your last post. I won't have the discussion with you or anyone else whose assessment is that I am overpaid for the outstanding job I perform and the importance it plays in the overall success of the company, and especially not with you, as I strongly suspect that you might be one of the ones who come up with all these brilliant marketing and fleet improvement projects and then plan how to pin the excuses for all the bad decisions you make on union pay rates as you sit in your Centerport office cubicles 35000 feet below the trenches eating Lay's stacked potato chips and giant megabite cookies. Then again, you might not be one of those people. But either way, you're really quite hilarious.

[Edited 2009-06-05 14:44:41]

[Edited 2009-06-05 14:55:46]

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-06-05 15:02:46 and read 5765 times.

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 56):
So, it sounds like what you are saying is that, if AA's unions all agreed to take another pay cut, AA would speed up the 757 refurb schedule.

Personally, I think the point he is making is quite a valid one - and you know I'm saying this as someone who very much appreciates the plight of AA's front-line employees and appreciates all the crap you guys have to put up with on a daily basis, much of it - very truly - as a direct result of the lackluster product you are supposed to push.

That being said - I'm not certain that your (meaning not you specifically, but all AA labor) pay being lower would have directly resulted in more money being put into the 757 (or wider fleet) refurbishments earlier or faster. There is no way to know that for certain. But I am certain that lowering AA's unit labor costs to competitive levels with the market/industry would certainly have given them lots more cash each year with which they could conceivably have refurbished the 757s earlier. That doesn't some inconceivable to me in the slightest.

But what I do think is undeniable is that if AA were paying you what your counterparts at AA's competitors are making, there sure would be a whole lot more money to go around for all sorts of things, aircraft refurbishment among them.

I know this is something that many AA employees - and trust me, I know lots of them - don't really want to admit, but the reality whether they like it or not is that they are now pretty much among the highest paid employees in the U.S. airline industry, even though their company is hardly among the best-performing financially.

And the oft-repeated excuse that all of this stuff (and even-higher and even-more-uncompetitive wages and benefits) could have all been easily paid for if not for Arpey's "bonuses" falls flat when one objectively and honestly appraises reality: as has been conveyed again and again, the stock options given to executives did not cost a nickel of cash to the company. Refurbing 600 airplane interiors, to say nothing of paying 100,000 employees 10-20% more than their counterparts at other airlines, does cost cash - in fact billions of dollars of it each year.

As I always have to disclaim when I make comments like this, I say the above not as somebody who has any axe to grind against AA labor in the slightest. As many on here know, I have and remain extremely sympathetic to many of the reasonable and logical complaints that AA's front-line workers - flight attendants, especially, in fact - have. But it still does not mean that I can just ignore the reality that, like it or not, yes, if you were paid the wages that others doing the same job are getting paid at AA's competitors, AA probably - not definitely, but probably - would have refurbished the fleet earlier, or at the very least paid down billions in debt earlier in order to buy new airplanes sooner.

[Edited 2009-06-05 15:04:07]

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-05 15:43:30 and read 5745 times.



Quoting Aajfksjubklyn (Reply 53):
Thats a lot of customer's lost.

Actually, no, its not a lot of customers lost. If it was, AA would be quicker to fix the planes.

I hate the 757s, and they have definitley not lost me. First of all, AA has what is widely considered to be the industry's single best frequent flyer program for business travellers. It's not perfect, but it offers just the ideal combination of positives and negatives to make it balance out.

Secondly, AA continues to offer the best domestic network connecting major business markets. They have a strong presence in Dallas, Chicago, and Miami, of course, but they also are strong in New York, Los Angeles, the Bay Area, Washington and Boston.

The 757 product sucks, but AA is not losing many customers because of it. Maybe if somebody else could match AA's domestic network coverage which is ideal for non-stop travel in industries/sectors like entertainment, IT, government and finance, then they'll start losing customers.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: N62NA
Posted 2009-06-05 16:00:52 and read 5706 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 51):

There is currently no set timeline, and installation will be sped up considerably when economic conditions improve. It is very possible the 757 fleet will be complete by summer 2011.

Yes, it might be finished by summer 2011. Or, it might be finished several years after that. But a maybe or a might be is a big nothing for those of us who have to fly on these AA 757s with their current product.

Quoting Aajfksjubklyn (Reply 59):
AA has to be loosing customers with these planes...has to be. Not many high paying fliers are willing to sit in those conditions.

Actually, I have been paying 15,000 miles a pop at the time of booking to make sure I am in the F cabin on any domestic AA 757 flight I have to take. No way will I sit in coach on an AA 757.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: JFKPurser
Posted 2009-06-05 21:01:23 and read 5610 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 64):
As I always have to disclaim when I make comments like this, I say the above not as somebody who has any axe to grind against AA labor in the slightest. As many on here know, I have and remain extremely sympathetic to many of the reasonable and logical complaints that AA's front-line workers - flight attendants, especially, in fact - have. But it still does not mean that I can just ignore the reality that, like it or not, yes, if you were paid the wages that others doing the same job are getting paid at AA's competitors, AA probably - not definitely, but probably - would have refurbished the fleet earlier, or at the very least paid down billions in debt earlier in order to buy new airplanes sooner.

Commavia -- I've bantered here with you over this issue on many occasion and I understand that you mean no disrespect and appreciate that you always speak highly of us -- right before you put us all in our "proper" places, of course  Wink  Wink . But honestly, I feel you are playing devil's advocate at its most oversimplified worst, and I think deep down inside you know your "AA" far better than to do that here.

There is money to plan for new 787s. There is money to convert 757s to Atlantic configuration. There is money for new 737s. There was plenty of money to put flat seats into 767-300s. There is money to equip the fleet with Wifi. Money is still being poured into amenities for lounges and Admirals Clubs. AA has deemed these issues to be "cost effective" -- that is they believe they will gain a return on these investments and make it worth their while in the long run. They just won't make the 757 refurb investment now because they know they don't have to -- it is not cost effective.

If our overall compensation rates were immediately dropped to DL or UA rates, I GUARANTEE you that AA would not refurb the 757 cabins any sooner than they plan to now -- because they will still keep you as a customer -- for of all the reasons mentioned previously in this thread. They do not have to and they know it. They will keep their product just above the vomit line, and make up for its blatant inadequacies through the many advantages AA offers in various other areas as mentioned above. When the company was flush with cash, did they, for example, choose to put a video system into the MD80 knowing full well they were at a huge disadvantage and that the average business traveller hated to fly on AA MD80s much for this very reason? No, because they calculated that they did not have to -- because it would not be "cost effective" to do so. When all the other things are factored in, customers -- and especially frequent travellers -- will still chose AA.

So, this idea that the company would be run so much better and that all the extra money would immediately be funneled into improvements for AA's passengers if our pay rates were lowered to DL levels is a sophomoric and, frankly, disingenuous version of reality. My assessment of your view of this situation -- as an outsider looking in -- is that it is just as glib as you seem to think my perspective is.

I've blogged through countless threads like these on A.net. On paper, it seems like a good argument -- but you will never convince me, becasue I have seen AA's irreverrence toward it's customers played out over and over again day in and day out -- in fat times and in thin -- it makes no difference. We'll see what will eventually happen when we are all still blogging about how crappy AA's product is -- say in 5 years or so when things have (maybe) turned around and AA is, in a perfect world, once again flush with cash and new planes -- if the company is still even in existence -- and if it is not, I'm sure many here will argue that management will have had nothing to do with the fall and that it will have been the greedy employees like me who will have taken the company's reputation down. You can mark my words -- they will still be taking gross advantage of their loyal customers' goodwill by misrepresenting the level of service they are actually selling them, and passengers will be taking it you know where -- hook, line and sinker -- becasue they will somehow be able to justify being treated that way as long as there is still the tiniest bit of value in it for them.

Where is your outrage?

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-06-05 21:34:41 and read 5562 times.

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 67):
There is money to plan for new 787s.

Virtually no money has been spent in this area to date. AA has probably handed over a few million in delivery deposits to Boeing to secure delivery positions, and beyond that, has not spent a dime of cash, as the first plane won't be arriving for - at the earliest - several years.

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 67):
They will keep their product just above the vomit line, and make up for its blatant inadequacies through the many advantages AA offers in various other areas as mentioned above.

Isn't that sort of the point of any business, though? Especially one that has such chronic and acute financial issues as AA? Doesn't every smart company carefully balance their investments to make sure they get the most revenue for the least cost?

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 67):
When the company was flush with cash, did they, for example, choose to put a video system into the MD80 knowing full well they were at a huge disadvantage and that the average business traveler hated to fly on AA MD80s much for this very reason? No, because they calculated that they did not have to -- because it would not be "cost effective" to do so.

Well, actually, the decision was deliberated on repeatedly, and even tested - several times - when they rolled out the PEDs on MD80 flights in various markets at various price points over a matter of months. And what they found, time and again, is what I and many other frequent AA flyers could probably have told them: I'm not willing to pay more for the inflight entertainment. If Continental or Delta want to go spending millions on putting seat-back IFE into every single airplane tomorrow, then good for them - let them go try and recoup that cost by charging higher fares. At AA, at least from the Plats and Exec Plats I know - who, by the nature of the beast, spend much of their time on MD80s - they could care less about having IFE. Most of the "average business traveler" passengers I know that spend thousands if not tens of thousands per year and up on AA are far, far more interested in having ample power ports and inflight wifi for the laptops they already travel with. They have no use for inflight entertainment and are definitely not willing to pay for it.

And, by the way, are these the same average business travelers who are now so fed up with the customer service on the front end from flight attendants - far more than any complaint with the hard physical product - that they are now actively calling for AMR to file for bankruptcy, just so they can force the unions into submission?

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 67):
When all the other things are factored in, customers -- and especially frequent travelers -- will still chose AA.

I'm not saying that AA should just ignore their product and completely degrade their inflight product - even further than they already have. I, too, weep for the days when service was a top (or, at least, higher) priority, where food was free in Coach, MRTC, etc. But the reality is those days are long gone. The vast majority of people want a bus with wings, and that's what they're willing to pay for. I know I don't have to tell you - any flight attendant working the back these days knows it all too well. The few amenities people are actually willing to pay for - like wifi - are things that AA is now smartly investing in.

Any airline passenger making a decision on which airline to fly is like any consumer making a decision on any product purchase: it is based on all the different product attributes that the consumer considers, and the weight that consumer attaches to each attribute.

So, if we can both agree that, in many if not most cases, AA is still deliver on the attributes that their most important consumers value most - like nonstop route network, schedule frequency, frequent flyer program, and premium services and airport amenities/clubs - then again: where is the problem?

AA's goal shouldn't be to score highest in every category with every customer. That would bankrupt the company. Their goal should be to score the highest with their key demographic of customers in the categories (like those mentioned above) where the customers place the most importance in the decision-making process. And that seems, to me at least, to be what they have been doing - to the best of their ability - given the uncompetitive costs their burdened with and the limited resources they have to work with.

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 67):
So, this idea that the company would be run so much better and that all the extra money would immediately be funneled into improvements for AA's passengers if our pay rates were lowered to DL levels is a sophomoric and, frankly, disingenuous version of reality.

Which is precisely why I did not presume to say that it was a "version of reality" at all.

If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I suggest that it is certainly possible, if not probable, that AA would have used some of the billions in savings from market-competitive labor contracts to either: (1) buy new aircraft, (2) invest in upgrading existing aircraft, or (3) paying down debt to free up future capital for (1) or (2).

And I still stand by that. I certainly don't presume to know what, exactly, AA would be doing with the billions of extra dollars it would have right now if labor costs were competitive with the market. But yeah, I think the above is a fairly reasonable guess on where at least some of it would go.

I guess my question would be this: where, exactly, do you think AA would be spending that money? Put another way: since 2005, when almost every one of its major competitors have entered bankruptcy and dumped or frozen their pensions, AA has done neither, and instead has continued to pay employees per labor contracts agreed to back in 2003 that are now woefully uncompetitive, and has continued to fund literally billions in contributions to the defined benefit pension plans that other airlines' workers lost years ago.

If AA hadn't been doing that since 2003, where, exactly, do you think they would have been spending that money?

I'm genuinely very curious to get your opinion, since this is a question I've never quite understood labor's answer to.

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 67):
My assessment of your view of this situation -- as an outsider looking in -- is that it is just as glib as you seem to think my perspective is.

Well, for the record, I never said or implied that what you said was "glib" in any way.

But if you think that is how my comments came across, I accept and respect that.

But I would ask you to take a step back for a moment and examine what, precisely, it is about my logic that you dispute.

Do you dispute, for example, that AA's labor costs are now, in aggregate, pretty much the highest in the United States among passenger airlines?

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 67):
Where is your outrage?

Oh, where to begin. I'm full of outrage.

I'm outraged that in this country today people do not see any value in the jobs that airline employees do, and could care less whether the person serving them their Coke, or sitting upfront, or turning the wrench on the leaky fuel valve down below, is paid well or minimum-wage. Consumers today do not value airline employees, and view them as basically one step above Wal Mart or McDonald's, and as a result, wages in the industry have fallen precipitously in the last ten years, in some cases literally to Wal Mart or McDonald's levels.

As someone who has known and been surrounded by dedicated, hard-working airline people my whole life, that absolutely outrages me. But whether I (or you, or the unions, or anyone else) likes it or not, that is reality. That's just it. Period.

But, since you asked, I'll tell you one of the many other things that outrages me. It absolutely outrages me that American's labor unions continue to demand billions of dollars in additional compensation above and beyond what they already receive, when they know just as well as anyone else that the company cannot even afford to pay them what they make now, and is starting out each and every flight with a 10-20% structural cost disadvantage versus many of its competitors simply because the unions refuse to accept that they are, for better or worse, no longer worth what they think they are - according to the market.

It outrages me that the unions then run and hide behind this extremely, "sophomoric and, frankly, disingenuous version of reality" where they say that since Gerard Arpey and 1,000 other managers got stock options they didn't deserve, the unions should get billions in raises. That argument is completely and totally intellectually bankrupt for various reasons, including (among others):

- The stock options given to managers did not cost the company any cash whatsoever, whereas the ridiculous wage and work rule demands some of the unions (mostly the pilots) have made would have astronomical real cash costs to AMR
- The stock options that those 1,000 managers - and especially the top executives - got still does not bring most of them to even within a close distance of what the going rate for their labor would be if they went somewhere else
- The unions fully know - but refuse to admit - that unlike most of the senior officers, who are paid far below market rates, AA's pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and rampers today are compensated (in total) quite substantially above market rates

And this business about Arpey and the senior officers not deserving the bonus they got, and thus the unions deserving billions in additional compensation is also ridiculous.

Since 2003, when Arpey kept AMR out of bankruptcy, in the ensuing years since when every single one of AMR's legacy competitors (save one) has resorted to bankruptcy to shirk their responsibilities, tear up labor contracts, force far, far deeper concessions, and freeze or cancel employees' defined-benefit pensions, Arpey has led AMR to:

- fund over $2 billion in pension contributions to AA employees' defined-benefit pensions, meaning that they have done far better overall than other industry workers who are now heavily reliant on 401k's (and we know how those have done recently)
- scraped together the cash, investments and loans from banks around the world to finance dozens of newer, more fuel efficient airplanes that will be with AMR for another 30-40 years
- repaid over $5 billion in long-term debt, and reduced AMR's net debt levels to their lowest point since 1998 (AMR's best financial year ever)
- actually managed to invest a bit in some new customer service and technology improvements like Mobile AA.com, inflight wifi, website improvements, better booking/check-in functionality, etc., and smartly begun the process of finding a SABRE successor

And he and his team have done all of this while dealing with 18 months of the highest fuel prices (even adjusted for inflation) ever in history, and with labor costs that are so out of whack with market realities that AMR cannot hope to be competitive in most of the markets they serve.

So yeah, I guess you could say I've got plenty of outrage to go around. I'm outraged that the market doesn't more fairly (from my perspective) value your labor as an AA flight attendant, but I'm also outraged that you and other AA employees still refuse to accept that fact for what it is, whether you like it or not, and give credit to the people who have continued to keep your employer in business even despite labor's clinging to cost paradigms that are simply not in line with the reality of the market in 2009.

[Edited 2009-06-05 21:37:36]

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: AA767400
Posted 2009-06-06 08:19:43 and read 5476 times.



Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 49):
With all due respect, you have only yourself to blame. Even without the wage increase you are seeking in current contract negotiations, you are the highest paid FA's among the Big 3. If over the last five years you had been paid what the Pursers or FA's make at Delta and United, AA would have already refurbished the 757 aircraft just with what they would have saved on your current contract alone. So, ironically, "you are the key" in more ways than one.

I find it disrespectful for you to even assume such a thing. Blame the employee for making what he makes? And then use that as an excuse as to why the airline has not upgraded it's product. And let me remind that it's not the employee who is asking for an increase in pay, it's the union. You would be very surprised at how very little input most F/As have on the union's decision. So if you want to blame someone, blame the greedy country club union in Dallas.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 62):
That industry standard was set by Delta and United during their bankruptcy proceedings.

And that standard will be shown in the level of customer service.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 62):
Now, because AA has been paying you more than the industry standard for your kind of work it could not afford to do other things with its cash.

You truly believe that AA would be in a better place this way? So if AA lowers pay wages to industry average then all will be solved right? You should work with both the union and company to find a solution professor. You seem to know how things should be run.  Wink

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 62):
AA put all of its money in you. You are the brand new interior of that 757. And, for your sake, you better make the customer believe that too.

Such arrogance. The passenger sees what an inferior product is. They also see broken planes and delays. But who is the key to fixing all of that? Right, the employee's above average wage. Let's not forget that AA Crews did take a pay cut, but because they did not go into bankruptcy, the pay cut was not as steep as DL/UA.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 64):
That being said - I'm not certain that your (meaning not you specifically, but all AA labor) pay being lower would have directly resulted in more money being put into the 757 (or wider fleet) refurbishments earlier or faster. There is no way to know that for certain.

Because there is no way to know that for certain. It is an ignorant assumption by someone who obviously feels that employees should work for less. Mind you, I don't agree that there should be a pay increase. And I am not fan of the unions. However, I think that the current wage should stay. Granted, another greedy machine is the APA. If you want to look at most of the setbacks for AA, looks to APA.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-06 08:35:05 and read 5457 times.

There is likely to correlation between wages and aircraft refurbs, but it does not change the fact that AA's unions need to accept reality. I have always been a fan of AA pursuing bankruptcy so that AA could eliminate pensions and lower wages to a market-appropriate rate, yet AA's already well-paid employees greedily continue to ask for more money when they are already the best paid in the industry. Shame on them.

And while I don't neccesarily think the lack of aircraft upgrades is a result of the unions, there is no doubt that AA's slow progress in expansion and growth to new markets is entirely the union's fault. Shame on them yet again.

[Edited 2009-06-06 08:41:09]

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-06-06 08:40:53 and read 5452 times.

Anyone recalls that AA 787s order is attached to an agreement w/APA Pilots Union? Add that to BOEING's strike related delays and one can predict that AA might get its first 787 over 5yrs from now if lucky! By then, it would be time to start replacing the oldest 757s and its 763s will start looking outdated too...I think AA has its work cut out regarding fleet replacement for now. At the present, DL and CO have nicer transatlantic fleets; DL's A330s are a beauty and they haven't even gone through DL's interior conversion yet. I'll fly on a DL A330 over a 1990's 763 any time soon especially in Coach. AA 763's in Y have no where to stretch; you are trapped in your seat. That 763 mid-galley is a waste of space and extra-weight...can't wait for the 787s to start replacing the 763s; dream on!!!

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2009-06-06 08:45:28 and read 5442 times.

AA should get a few 739ER's to replace the oldest 757s. Wouldn't the 739ER perform better than the 757 on some markets? Perhaps "thin" Transcons or MIA-Central America and JFK-Caribbean. Could AA swap 738 options for 739's? I guess so. I'd say, slightly spruce up the 757 fleet; the newer ones at least and replace the oldest 757s with 739's within a 3-5yrs cycle. By then perhaps BOEING would have decided on the 737 replacement that could easily take over both the 737 and the 757 models.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: JFKPurser
Posted 2009-06-06 09:11:55 and read 5409 times.

AA767-400 -- Great post. I agree with it all.

Commavia, I should know by now that anything I could ever write would change your mind, or anyone else who holds a similar point of view of the situation. In any case, I hope that after reading what you posted, readers who complain about AA's terrible service will at last stop bitching about it and make due with the terrible condition of their planes and know who to blame for it -- the people working in them to keep them fed, watered and safe and getting them where they need to go. And I can finally show up at work with much more peace of mind knowing that I am the one who is fully responsible for the decrepit state of AA's 757 interiors and know that there is at last a solution at hand. I'll start by convincing my coworkers to call on the union to demand lower wages for us all so that AA can immediately start pouring all that extra money into the many things that would make their passengers comfortable. I'm sure they'll get on that right away.

[Edited 2009-06-06 09:21:07]

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: AA767400
Posted 2009-06-06 11:17:42 and read 5315 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 70):
yet AA's already well-paid employees greedily continue to ask for more money when they are already the best paid in the industry. Shame on them.

It's the unions who continue to hamper things, not the employees. Again, employees just sit idle as the union and the company go at it. The unions are not run by 100% employees. They have many non-airline employees working there. The greedy unions is right, the greedy employee is an urban myth. Most things the unions do are without a vote.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 70):
And while I don't neccesarily think the lack of aircraft upgrades is a result of the unions, there is no doubt that AA's slow progress in expansion and growth to new markets is entirely the union's fault. Shame on them yet again.

Shame on the unions and their lawyers. It's because of the APA that deterred that last China application. It's because of the APA that the 787 order is based on contracts agreements. Look to the APA to spread negative light and poison their members with anit-AA propaganda. The APA wants some serious money. But do you think the majority of Pilots think they will get that? People know what the current economy is.

Same goes for APFA. The corrupt country club in Texas who preach their propaganda on a daily basis. It's easy for you and any other member on this board to state that employees are greedy. But there is more to it than just that. Most employees know what decade they live in. The majority don't agree with their union. They don't expect a wage increase, or a miracle. What they are hoping for is to keep their current pay rate. Whether you, or any other person on the street thinks F/As should be pad at a lower wage is interesting at best. So you lower their pay, and then hopefully expect AA to order 77Ws for service to Africa. Flight Attendant pay is not going to change jack at AA. Look to bigger fish like the APA for deal breakers.

And you act like AA Crews get paid so much more than any other airline. CO/WN get paid the same if not more than AA Crews. What's the excuse there? CO Crews are paid well, yet they still have the resources to refurbish their aircraft, add IFE to their aircraft, obtain new planes, and new routes. Yet they all get paid at rates slightly better then AA. WN Crews get paid well, and their company has a high level of interaction with their employees which really shows in customer service. You see when you treat your employees good, your operation prospers. Cutting pay to bare bones, to then not upgrade your tired product does not do much for moral or customer service.

It's easy to blame something on someone when you don't like the way things are going.  Wink

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: JFKPurser
Posted 2009-06-06 12:00:14 and read 5292 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 70):
And while I don't neccesarily think the lack of aircraft upgrades is a result of the unions, there is no doubt that AA's slow progress in expansion and growth to new markets is entirely the union's fault. Shame on them yet again.

You're absolutely right. It's all our fault. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the state of the world economy, the demand for travel, the price of oil or any other market conditions. Shame on me is right. After reading posts like these, I'm really beginning to think that there is a sound argument in requiring people to work at all airlines without any compensation whatsoever. Otherwise, no airline would ever be able to expand simply for the joy of it during bleak economic periods globally when there is ever-shrinking demand for travel. You make a really good point.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-06 13:12:31 and read 5218 times.



Quoting AA767400 (Reply 74):
It's the unions who continue to hamper things, not the employees.

The unions represent the employees. The employees should not be sitting idle. If they disagree with the union's "demands," then speak up. Otherwise, yes, its the employees who continue to hamper things through inaction.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: FuturePilot16
Posted 2009-06-06 13:20:58 and read 5201 times.



Quoting PRAirbus (Thread starter):
Anyone knows how many 757s has AA converted to long-haul so far

This might seem like a dumb question, but what exactly is long Haul? Is it just throwing a couple of winglets on them or does it have to do with ETOPS certification as well as rearranging fuel tanks. Because if it only has to do with winglets, then the amount of long haul is a lot more than four.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: FLFlyGuy
Posted 2009-06-06 13:55:01 and read 5168 times.

By the sounds of some of the posts here, I guess the solution is that any carrier that manages to survive a few years should just throw in the hat and go out of business.

One of the reasons that AA's labor costs are so high is that we haven't hired in nearly a decade. Nearly all of our F/As are approaching the top of the pay scale.

This isn't how it is supposed to work! We are supposed to hire new people, at entry wages, which drive down the average labor costs to something American can sustain.

Now, other carriers may also be faced with that issue. However, I believe that United and Continental and Delta are hiring/have hired much more recently that AA. And carriers like Virgin America and JetBlue simply haven't been around long enough to have super-senior employees. That is why start up carriers have such a huge cost advantage at the get-go.

The need to have new hires has been well documented, in fact, it was the cornerstone of Crandall's Growth Plan and the introduction of B Scale in the 1980s.

Now, you can't hire employees you don't need. So you need to either A) entice existing, senior employees to leave, or B) grow the airline, so that you need more total employees (or, nearly as good, spread the cost of your existing employees over a larger revenue base).

AA Management has done neither of these things. It has shrunk the airline. It has offered only the most meager, insulting early out packages. It has continued to furlough. All of this KNOWING that it would drive up our average labor cost and give them the ability to.....as historically only AA management can.....whine about how expensive our labor contracts are.

Take other carrier's contracts, put all of the employees at the top of the scale, and see how AA compares then. I would suspect that AA would not be so "industry leading" in that event. If you take an INDIVIDUAL, and compare earnings across carriers at similar seniority levels, AA isn't so hot. It is only when you look at TOTAL labor costs that we are way high....and that has a lot to do with seniority.

You are are absolutely right that unions need to understand that you can't squeeze blood from a turnip. A lot of what we are asking for is not increased wages, but improvements to reserve (who ever though that 25 year employees would still be on reserve!), insurance, etc. etc. WE KNOW we aren't going to get huge raises.

And as for the management bonuses, I don't care if they were "just" stock options. In 2003, the deal was "PULL TOGETHER, WIN TOGETHER".

THAT is what infuriates so many of us. We pulled together in 2003 to keep the company out of bankruptcy, and we really thought that labor relations were taking a new turn. Then, the management bonuses started. We pulled together.....where is the win together?

The understanding in 2003 is that all "bonuses" would be based on the same set of goals, so that everyone was pulling for the same things. If you want to do stock options because we still haven't declared bankrupcy, then we ALL should get stock options at the same time (different amounts, of course, depending on who you are).

But the line employees bonus (called AIP Plan) is based on concrete results. And how is AA doing?

Well, our on time performance is crap. Our customer survey results are crap (although interestingly, scores for FA service have been going up....scores for the product itself have not). Our planes look like hell. SO WHAT IS MANAGEMENT REWARDING ITSELF FOR?? We are not running a good airline. We are running an airline that has managed to stay out of bankruptcy by the skin of its teeth, which is hoarding cash, and not making the necessary investments to insure a solid future. It is not a surprise that we have 300 MD80s that need replacing. It is no wonder we cannot grow internationally.....we have no aircraft to do so. We have known all this for years, and little has been done. Finally we are starting to upgrade the fleet.....but as this thread points out, the 757s are in a shambles and there is no clear timeline for fixing them.

And THAT, my friends, is what management is supposed to do....ensure the long-term viability of the organization. By focusing on short term savings, we have, I fear, severely damaged our long-term ability to compete.

Rant over.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Flavio340
Posted 2009-06-06 14:03:09 and read 5152 times.



Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 78):

I hate to say I agree with you but, I do. I think AMR will be trying to get another "B" scale. I know the unions will fight this tooth and nail, but in the end compromises will have to be made if AA is going to be competitive let alone surviving.

Amazing how something as simple as cabin refurbishments, can be as complicated as employee pay scales. That is why I love this industry!!!

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: SDQ777
Posted 2009-06-06 15:44:37 and read 5108 times.

Since the airlines are so fond of the the 757's, I'm thinking one way to extend the life is to replace the engines (let's say the RR RB211's) with the new trent engines or the like. With the more fuel efficient engines, this would also make them more valuable on the used aircraft market. I think AA would benefit from this.  twocents 

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: AA767400
Posted 2009-06-06 16:38:23 and read 5082 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 76):
The unions represent the employees. The employees should not be sitting idle. If they disagree with the union's "demands," then speak up. Otherwise, yes, its the employees who continue to hamper things through inaction.
Easier said then done. And again we go back to you blaming the employees. The employees can TRY to overturn the union, but that would take a lot of educating the current employees to understand that the union is not a benefit to them. Especially the older generation who are brainwashed with union kool aid. And I will say it again. Majority of employees do not expect nor demand their money back. The union has done MANY things without a vote, and continue to impose their ideas. Many have stopped paying union dues, and do not wear or support the union. Greedy unions, not greedy Flight Attendant serving you a drink.

Why is AA not offering an attractive early out package for senior employees? Does the union block the company for offering that? I don't think so. i am not pro-union, but we need to look at both sides. If AA really wanted to get things moving and more productive they would have implemented an attractive package so people can leave.

Do you think AA not going into bankruptcy was to protect their employees? Not at all, AA did not go into bankruptcy in order to protect it's shareholders, and shareholders only. Now AA is paying the price for doing so. They could have stripped all employees of pensions, pay, and work rules. And hey, maybe then you would get your 772 to South Africa, and caviar in first. Just look at UA/US/NW who all went through bankruptcy, and still have mediocre products, aging planes, service cuts, and BOB.  

[Edited 2009-06-06 16:43:45]

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-06 16:43:15 and read 5061 times.



Quoting AA767400 (Reply 81):

Easier said then done. And again we go back to you blaming the employees. The employees can TRY to overturn the union, but that would take a lot of educating the current employees to understand that the union is not a benefit to them.

No, I agree that AA management is poor and lacks vision, although I have no problem with their stock option compensations - they are exceutives, that's how they get paid, employees need to deal.

I blame management and the employees.

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: AA767400
Posted 2009-06-06 16:50:30 and read 5038 times.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 82):
No, I agree that AA management is poor and lacks vision, although I have no problem with their stock option compensations - they are exceutives, that's how they get paid, employees need to deal.

I have no problem with executives getting compensation, as well as shareholders. I never go around saying that they all get bonuses and employees nothing. They have a higher position and as such make more. I for one can deal with that, and never thought twice about it.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 82):
I blame management and the employees.

How about unions and management. You can't blame employees who have been shoved the union down their throats from day one. The unions have been on property for too long, and hence have dug their nail deep. Too deep to pull out unless by drastic force. Here's hoping...

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2009-06-06 20:00:30 and read 4953 times.



Quoting AA767400 (Reply 81):
If AA really wanted to get things moving and more productive they would have implemented an attractive package so people can leave.

People can "leave" at any time. The fact nobody wants to leave the company suggests they are being paid far higher than market levels. In the real world there is lots of employee turnover. Also, there is such a thing as being "fired" or pink-slipped. It ain't pretty but it allows the overall country to work better. If nobody could get fired in this country, we would be up a creek. What kind of a country would that be?

Topic: RE: AA 757s Recent Developments/updates?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2009-06-07 02:13:02 and read 4889 times.

This thread has drifted off-topic to become a union discussion. Not much point in continuing.


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