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Topic: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-14 12:07:21 and read 6022 times.

It's been awhile since the original McCain/Boxer legislation was introduced... we can beat this one up a bit again, I think.

From the UA thread:

Quoting Gigneil:
Another equally if not more interesting topic would be - what will US do?



Quoting Cubsrule:
US has slots coming out of its ears...

4x LAX
2x SAN
3x SFO
2x PDX?
2x SEA?
Maybe even 1x SMF (it's about 300 PDEW, so they could likely fill a 319, but I don't know at what yields. If they have the aircraft, though, it may well be a better use of a slot than a fourth flight to GSO or BDL)

LAX, SAN, and SFO are all great bets. There's no reason to believe they won't shore up UA's DEN service with a couple of flights, either.

I remember the good old days when PHX and LAS were both served entirely with 757s - but certainly SFO and LAX would require 757s on all the trips.

Might help them reconsider removing as many as they're currently planning.

NS

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-14 12:12:57 and read 6002 times.

I didn't discuss the idea of reducing GSO or BDL - that wouldn't be allowed under the new legislation unless it changed significantly and I didn't notice. The legislation allows you to exchange a within-perimeter slot to a hub airport for any destination outside the perimeter.

So Delta certainly has an advantage, having the most within-perimeter hubs.

NS

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-14 12:28:12 and read 5977 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
I didn't discuss the idea of reducing GSO or BDL - that wouldn't be allowed under the new legislation unless it changed significantly and I didn't notice. The legislation allows you to exchange a within-perimeter slot to a hub airport for any destination outside the perimeter.

Well, it wouldn't directly be allowed...

But what WOULD be allowed-- in principle anyway-- is reducing (say) TPA on January 1, and moving a slot from BDL to TPA on January 15.

...and regardless, US has a ton of slots.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: AmtrakGuy
Posted 2009-06-14 13:38:40 and read 5868 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
regardless, US has a ton of slots.

True...but remember, between 1/3 and 1/2 of slots belong to NW/DL -- NW leased the slot to US. I believe new DL will request the slots back from US slowly next few years.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: TheGMan
Posted 2009-06-14 14:31:53 and read 5791 times.

They might have slots, but they don't have aircraft to run those long transcons from DCA. I could see maybe a daily LAX/SFO/and maybe SAN but not multiples.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-14 14:35:53 and read 5777 times.



Quoting TheGMan (Reply 4):
They might have slots, but they don't have aircraft to run those long transcons from DCA.

Doesn't that assertion necessarily assume something about the relative profitability of DCA transcons and various flights on which the aircraft are currently used? There's at least a possibility that MHT-CLT-BDL-PHL-CLT-JAX-CLT-PIT doesn't make as much money as DCA-SFO-DCA would (and redeyes, which would certainly be one possibility for these flights, help utilization on their own without any cutting).

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2009-06-14 14:39:20 and read 5764 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Thread starter):
US has slots coming out of its ears...

4x LAX
2x SAN
3x SFO
2x PDX?
2x SEA?
Maybe even 1x SMF (it's about 300 PDEW, so they could likely fill a 319, but I don't know at what yields. If they have the aircraft, though, it may well be a better use of a slot than a fourth flight to GSO or BDL)

Does US currently serve the west coast with this many flights out of DCA? Or do they just hold the slot rights to them and not always fly them?

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-14 14:48:25 and read 5748 times.



Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6):
Or do they just hold the slot rights to them and not always fly them?

US holds all kinds of slots that they use to flights inside the perimeter that could be shifted to west coast flying.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2009-06-14 14:58:26 and read 5729 times.

It will depend on the political pressures put on. As US has a strong presence in Airzona, I am quite sure Sen. McCain will push for a Non-stop to PHX. Maybe PHX, LAX, SFO, San Diego will be considered. Gotta keep those politicans happy. Probably one reason for this change was the greater restrictions with laws passed in recent years on all politicans as to riding on corporate jets where they would be a captive audience for lobbying efforts. Now they have to travel with the 'little people' facing the same frustrations as to security, delays, maybe sitting with a voter not a lobbist.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: TheGMan
Posted 2009-06-14 14:59:31 and read 5732 times.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
It will depend on the political pressures put on. As US has a strong presence in Airzona, I am quite sure Sen. McCain will push for a Non-stop to PHX

McCain already pushed for and got the non stop to PHX a long time ago.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SANFan
Posted 2009-06-14 15:07:09 and read 5713 times.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
It will depend on the political pressures put on. As US has a strong presence in Airzona, I am quite sure Sen. McCain will push for a Non-stop to PHX. Maybe PHX, LAX, SFO, San Diego will be considered.

Umm, US flies 3x daily DCA-PHX (and once daily DCA-LAS) currently as part of the exemptions to the DCA Perimeter Rule...

You might want to visit this thread for an on-going discussion (with lots of facts and figures):
US Senate Debates DCA Perimeter (by LAXintl Jun 11 2009 in Civil Aviation)

bb

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-14 15:15:40 and read 5679 times.



Quoting SANFan (Reply 10):
Umm, US flies 3x daily DCA-PHX (and once daily DCA-LAS) currently as part of the exemptions to the DCA Perimeter Rule...

That actually begs an interesting question that I'm not sure of the answer to...

Could US use the LAS slot for another out-of-perimeter flight under this bill?

If so, would they? Certainly LAS isn't what it once was.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-14 15:23:27 and read 5649 times.

I think they probably would be able to. Since it gives you the ability to move service around to any beyond-perimeter destination, I assume it would also give you the ability to move exemptions you already have.

Although I do have to say, even late into last year they were pretty good about operating a 757 on the route. Its a 319 now, so it may really not be as important as it once was.

NS

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SANFan
Posted 2009-06-14 15:28:04 and read 5631 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Could US use the LAS slot for another out-of-perimeter flight under this bill?
If so, would they? Certainly LAS isn't what it once was

I would think US would probably rather switch a PHX-DCA flight to somewhere in CA rather than the LAS flight. The O&D from LAS to WAS is certainly worthy of some n/s out of DCA. If US could carry traffic n/s from SFO or SAN, they should be able to easily eliminate one of the trips out of Sky Harbor.

bb

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2009-06-14 15:30:46 and read 5624 times.

I thought DCA banned the SFO, PDX and SAN flights....  confused  The one thing I do not get is if those routes are banned, then how did SEA make the cut?

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SANFan
Posted 2009-06-14 15:43:53 and read 5595 times.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I thought DCA banned the SFO, PDX and SAN flights.... The one thing I do not get is if those routes are banned, then how did SEA make the cut?

This thread seems to be predicated on the assumption that one of the 2 proposed bills actually passes and service from DCA is opened up. Since US Airways has the most slots at Reagan, the discussions here center on what US might do IF things change...

(Again, I would visit the other thread on the topic for information and background.)

bb

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SANFan
Posted 2009-06-14 15:52:31 and read 5567 times.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I thought DCA banned the SFO, PDX and SAN flights.... The one thing I do not get is if those routes are banned, then how did SEA make the cut?

(Unfortunately the other thread has turned into a discussion of light-rail transportation in the Washington DC area; maybe it will return the core topic eventually.)

I think when the exemptions were handed out, they tried to do it sort of "regionally"; thus SEA got an exemption that was supposed to take care of the Pacific Northwest (including PDX) and LAX was won by TWA originally, and was intended to take care of California. Of course the hubs of SLC, PHX, LAS and DEN also got exempted service so the rest of the west was going to have plenty of connections to choose from. That's my take on how it was done...

bb

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-14 16:07:59 and read 5540 times.



Quoting SANFan (Reply 13):
The O&D from LAS to WAS is certainly worthy of some n/s out of DCA.

Five years ago, I would have, without a doubt, agreed with you. But isn't the O&D from LAS to NYC equally worthy of a n/s to SOMEWHERE in the New York area?

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-14 16:33:26 and read 5490 times.



Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
(Unfortunately the other thread has turned into a discussion of light-rail transportation in the Washington DC area; maybe it will return the core topic eventually.)

The core topic over there is legislative regulation at DCA, and the factors involved in it.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
But isn't the O&D from LAS to NYC equally worthy of a n/s to SOMEWHERE in the New York area?

Yeah, if it could operate without getting tooled by competition.

The reality is, they'd need several flights a day to EWR or JFK to really make it work, and both Continental and JetBlue are better set up at this time to make that go.

If US had enough spare 757s to do that, I think they could make a go of it. But A319s once or twice a day aren't going to work against CO or B6's hub operations.

I'm honestly surprised they don't have service to at least one of them anyway. But its certainly a sign of this economy that they don't.

NS

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: TheGMan
Posted 2009-06-14 17:14:35 and read 5427 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
That actually begs an interesting question that I'm not sure of the answer to...

Could US use the LAS slot for another out-of-perimeter flight under this bill?

If so, would they? Certainly LAS isn't what it once was.

I am not sure that this is possible

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):

Yeah, if it could operate without getting tooled by competition.

I think that post was directed at a service to LGA

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):

If US had enough spare 757s to do that, I think they could make a go of it. But A319s once or twice a day aren't going to work against CO or B6's hub operations.

Could a 321 make it? I think so, US West is taking on several more 321s this year, I think.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-14 17:39:14 and read 5366 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
The reality is, they'd need several flights a day to EWR or JFK to really make it work, and both Continental and JetBlue are better set up at this time to make that go.

I agree. The situation in D.C. is that they are operating an uncompetitive frequency (compared to UA's 3 to IAD or WN's 3 to BWI) to a superior airport. Maybe that's a recipe for success. Maybe, though, one of the following is also true:

1) It's only successful because of the paucity of service to the west coast ex-DCA

2) It's not the best use of the slot, but it's the only way US can use it.

If one of those two things is true, it's easy to imagine the flight moving if that's possible.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Jopavon
Posted 2009-06-14 18:55:44 and read 5232 times.

Is it possible to launch a DCA-MEX nonstop or is there any restriction associated to the perimeter or immigration issues?

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-14 18:59:01 and read 5226 times.



Quoting Jopavon (Reply 21):
Is it possible to launch a DCA-MEX nonstop or is there any restriction associated to the perimeter or immigration issues?

DCA doesn't have an immigration/customs facility suitable for a commercial flight.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2009-06-14 19:00:21 and read 5221 times.



Quoting SANFan (Reply 15):
Since US Airways has the most slots at Reagan, the discussions here center on what US might do IF things change...

If US has the most slots at DCA, how is that fair to the rest of the carriers who currently do serve the airport? F9 could do real well with adding another slot or two out of DEN, IMO....

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Wedgetail737
Posted 2009-06-14 19:20:11 and read 5180 times.



Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
thus SEA got an exemption that was supposed to take care of the Pacific Northwest (including PDX)

...and Alaska. There seems to be a tremendous connection traffic between DCA and the State of Alaska.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-14 19:21:04 and read 5181 times.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
If US has the most slots at DCA, how is that fair to the rest of the carriers who currently do serve the airport?

What alternative do you suggest? Reauctioning all of them?

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2009-06-14 19:25:20 and read 5434 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
Reauctioning all of them?

 yes  Of course!

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-14 20:11:40 and read 5356 times.



Quoting TheGMan (Reply 19):
Could a 321 make it? I think so, US West is taking on several more 321s this year, I think.

It could do it from the long runways at EWR or JFK, yeah...

Brings up an interesting point of discussion with re: DCA as well. I wonder if US will want to position 321s for some of these routes? I'm not sure how well the 321 will do from the shorter runway - DCA transcons is really an area where the 757's performance profile will shine yearround, and I think more 321s being added to US' fleet will help them free up 757s from other, shorter routes where capacity is required.

NS

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SeaBosDca
Posted 2009-06-14 20:18:26 and read 5347 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 27):
Brings up an interesting point of discussion with re: DCA as well. I wonder if US will want to position 321s for some of these routes? I'm not sure how well the 321 will do from the shorter runway - DCA transcons is really an area where the 757's performance profile will shine yearround, and I think more 321s being added to US' fleet will help them free up 757s from other, shorter routes where capacity is required.

Another interesting issue is that US, no doubt with PHX and LAS leisure routes in mind, has configured its 757s in a high-density, Y-heavy configuration. For US, the A321 is the properly configured aircraft for DCA transcons, but the 757 is the plane that can actually do them. It would be interesting to see how they'd resolve this issue. I suspect the answer might involve A320s.  Silly

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: C680
Posted 2009-06-14 20:29:38 and read 5323 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
DCA doesn't have an immigration/customs facility suitable for a commercial flight.

No, DCA does have international flights (AC pre-clear in Canada)

My fantasy of a BA LCY-DCA with a pre-clear at SNN lives on!!!!

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: TheGMan
Posted 2009-06-14 20:31:39 and read 5318 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 27):
It could do it from the long runways at EWR or JFK, yeah...

Brings up an interesting point of discussion with re: DCA as well. I wonder if US will want to position 321s for some of these routes? I'm not sure how well the 321 will do from the shorter runway - DCA transcons is really an area where the 757's performance profile will shine yearround, and I think more 321s being added to US' fleet will help them free up 757s from other, shorter routes where capacity is required.

You know, I am not sure I have ever seen a 321 in DCA.

Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 28):
Another interesting issue is that US, no doubt with PHX and LAS leisure routes in mind, has configured its 757s in a high-density, Y-heavy configuration. For US, the A321 is the properly configured aircraft for DCA transcons, but the 757 is the plane that can actually do them. It would be interesting to see how they'd resolve this issue. I suspect the answer might involve A320s. Silly

Really? Currently there are 3 configurations of 757 in the US fleet
they are:
8F/185Y
12J/164Y
14F/176Y

Now, obviously the one with 12J/164Y are the ETOPS aircraft used for TATL
The only configuration I have encountered here on the east coast is 8F/185Y.
I know for a fact that the PHX-Hawaii are all operated by aircraft that are 14F/176Y so I suspect that these are old ex. HP birds.

The 757s at one point had F from L1 to L2 doors, and the 321s have always been delivered with 16F.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SANFan
Posted 2009-06-14 20:38:04 and read 5292 times.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
If US has the most slots at DCA, how is that fair to the rest of the carriers who currently do serve the airport? F9 could do real well with adding another slot or two out of DEN, IMO....

All cx have slots at DCA, it's just that US has (essentially) a hub there so they have more. With the exeption of AS and F9, etc., who have only a single route or 2 from Reagan, the rest of the cx will have to do some juggling (depending on how things end up after one of the bills is passed and exactly what is allowed.)

My guess would be that F9 and AS would have to find a way to buy slots from somebody, or ...? (I have no idea how the slots at DCA are managed or if they can be bartered.) You can, however, be assured that UA, if permitted, will add DEN flights from Reagan, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if US did as well (if they could.)

This whole thread is very theoretical and tough to get a hold on since everything is based on many, many "ifs".

bb

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-14 20:43:25 and read 5265 times.

You know what I miss is the FLL hub... it actually did really make sense, they just needed to stick with it.

Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 28):
Another interesting issue is that US, no doubt with PHX and LAS leisure routes in mind, has configured its 757s in a high-density, Y-heavy configuration.

Funny thing is, they reconfigured those in that configuration before the HP merger, when they decided the 757 was the plane for Florida and Las Vegas to drive up revenue with low yield.

Quoting TheGMan (Reply 30):
You know, I am not sure I have ever seen a 321 in DCA.

I have. I've been on a few randomly to PHL and CLT. They were scheduled pretty reliably on those two routes for a while.

Quoting TheGMan (Reply 30):
The only configuration I have encountered here on the east coast is 8F/185Y.

I flew an ex-HP bird on DCA-LAS later last year (Aug, I want to say) that was in the 14F config still... I'd assume most of the HP birds are still in that config.

Certainly that's the config they have that makes the most sense for DCA transcons given what they have in the fleet.

NS

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SNCntry32
Posted 2009-06-14 21:12:40 and read 5181 times.

Arent all of US slots Northwest slots to begin with? I thought Northwest had the most slots in DCA?? Or am I remebering something wrong?

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: TheGMan
Posted 2009-06-14 21:20:47 and read 5147 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 32):
I flew an ex-HP bird on DCA-LAS later last year (Aug, I want to say) that was in the 14F config still... I'd assume most of the HP birds are still in that config.

Yeah, that is exactly what I was talking about. All the US East birds have 8F (with the exception of the TATL ones) and the US West 752s have 14F.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: KingAir200
Posted 2009-06-14 21:22:57 and read 5140 times.



Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 33):
Arent all of US slots Northwest slots to begin with?

Not all of them, though they do lease several NWA slots. NWA is the 4th largest slot-holder in DCA, a holdover from the days of the DCA minihub.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SNCntry32
Posted 2009-06-14 21:25:18 and read 5128 times.



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 35):

Not all of them, though they do lease several NWA slots. NWA is the 4th largest slot-holder in DCA, a holdover from the days of the DCA minihub.

Id like to know more about the DCA minihub.. Are there threads about it? Anything online?

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Pylon101
Posted 2009-06-15 01:21:27 and read 4700 times.



Quoting TheGMan (Reply 4):
They might have slots, but they don't have aircraft to run those long transcons from DCA

How could it possibly be if any A 319, 320 and 321 (with some restriction) can make it.
From Moscow SU A-320 makes SVO-MAD easily in 5.5. hours and SVO-LIS in 6+ hours - flying west against prevailing head winds.

I am very pleased about DCA plans. Being on business in D.C. area twice a year at least - it would be such a relief to fly directly.
I assume that direct flights might be more expensive - but still it is a great option.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Wn676
Posted 2009-06-15 01:39:11 and read 4671 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 32):
Quoting TheGMan (Reply 30):
You know, I am not sure I have ever seen a 321 in DCA.

I have. I've been on a few randomly to PHL and CLT. They were scheduled pretty reliably on those two routes for a while.

We used to send a 321 to DCA from PHX, but on the return the aircraft would route through CLT, which I'm guessing is because they couldn't make the n/s back to PHX work with DCA's runway.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2009-06-15 03:32:23 and read 4547 times.



Quoting TheGMan (Reply 30):
the 321s have always been delivered with 16F.

Actually, the East A321's were originally delivered with 26 F seats.

Quoting Gigneil (Thread starter):
I remember the good old days when PHX and LAS were both served entirely with 757s - but certainly SFO and LAX would require 757s on all the trips.

The 757 fleet is starting to get a bit tight at US, especially with frames continuing to be returned to lessors. They're needed for PHX-Hawaii and thinner PHL-Europe routes; the West 757's right now don't do much more than PHX-Hawaii, a daily PHX-CUN, and some utilization flying to LAX and SNA in the early morning when they're not needed for Hawaii.

Quoting Pylon101 (Reply 37):
How could it possibly be if any A 319, 320 and 321 (with some restriction) can make it.

The runways at DCA are short, and there can be significant headwinds when flying west. Right now, all of US's flights from DCA to PHX and LAS are on the A319. I do not know if this is for performance reasons (versus the A320) or whether there's an issue of demand. Frontier uses the A320 between DCA and DEN, but DEN is an hour closer than PHX or LAS.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
I think they probably would be able to. Since it gives you the ability to move service around to any beyond-perimeter destination, I assume it would also give you the ability to move exemptions you already have.

I doubt that's the case unless the law specifically applies to the exemptions as well. Even so, US probably has enough slots to not need to move its beyond-perimeter exemptions.

Quoting C680 (Reply 29):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
DCA doesn't have an immigration/customs facility suitable for a commercial flight.

No, DCA does have international flights (AC pre-clear in Canada)

Pre-cleared flights don't require an immigration/customs facility suitable for a commercial flight. DCA-MEX isn't possible since there's no pre-clearance at MEX.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
I'm honestly surprised they don't have service to at least one of them anyway. But its certainly a sign of this economy that they don't.

US flew LAS-JFK until early last month. The economy is poor, it's even worse in Las Vegas, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the LAS hub cut even further come fall.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: LACA773
Posted 2009-06-15 05:35:22 and read 4259 times.



Quoting Wn676 (Reply 38):
We used to send a 321 to DCA from PHX, but on the return the aircraft would route through CLT, which I'm guessing is because they couldn't make the n/s back to PHX work with DCA's runway.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):
The runways at DCA are short, and there can be significant headwinds when flying west. Right now, all of US's flights from DCA to PHX and LAS are on the A319. I do not know if this is for performance reasons (versus the A320) or whether there's an issue of demand. Frontier uses the A320 between DCA and DEN, but DEN is an hour closer than PHX or LAS.

With the short runway problems @ DCA as well as US wanting to use the 321s on transcons and were not completely happy with them because of the performance, isn't thiis the main reason why they bought several (4 or more) 321-200s that have much improved performance in the air and take offs which they were going to base out West for transcon flying? I would think this would settle a lot of this with these new, improved and more advanced birds compared to their main fleet of 321-100s

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: COERJ145
Posted 2009-06-15 05:52:16 and read 4191 times.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):

The runways at DCA are short, and there can be significant headwinds when flying west. Right now, all of US's flights from DCA to PHX and LAS are on the A319. I do not know if this is for performance reasons (versus the A320) or whether there's an issue of demand. Frontier uses the A320 between DCA and DEN, but DEN is an hour closer than PHX or LAS.

Actually they are using 2 A320s and 1 A319 on todays DCA-PHX flights.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 40):
With the short runway problems @ DCA as well as US wanting to use the 321s on transcons and were not completely happy with them because of the performance, isn't thiis the main reason why they bought several (4 or more) 321-200s that have much improved performance in the air and take offs which they were going to base out West for transcon flying? I would think this would settle a lot of this with these new, improved and more advanced birds compared to their main fleet of 321-100s

US has always had A321-200s. The ones for west flying are equipped with IAE-V2500 engines instead of CFM-56s.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Thestooges
Posted 2009-06-15 06:41:38 and read 4032 times.



Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 36):
Id like to know more about the DCA minihub.. Are there threads about it? Anything online?

The NW mini-hub in DCA existed in the early 90's, '91 or '92 I think, and came about after NW purchased/ took over a lot of Easterns gates/ slots after it had just collapsed. They had flights to MIA, FLL, TPA, MCO, RSW etc (I was about 12 at the time, so I can't remember all that well). All they really added was Florida service, so I don't think it was really a "hub" per say because the only other cities they flew to DCA from at the time were of course the usual DCA, MSP and MEM who all had their own flights to Florida anyway. Even though NW called it a hub it was probably in technicality more of a focus city because I don't think it really provided many connecting opportunites, except for maybe BOS. But supposedly it was an attempt at a north-south hub so maybe they were more flights to cities north of DCA that would have provided feed to the Florida services ???

The only thing I can find on the intenet is in a comment to someones blog on Plane Buzz, but at least it illustrates how unsuccesful the operation was and how badly it was planned.

" . . . Fornaro is the "genius" that created the Northwest "hub" in DCA and "shuttle" between DCA-BOS. I remember carrying 7 passengers DCA-TPA over Christmas that year! Finally Dasburg, he of the $90 million payout who took a billion dollar strike/lockout that could have been settled for 750 million on the advice of Micky "Frank Lorenzo is the greatest man I ever worked for" Foret and Ben Hirst, returning to NW to "make peace with employees!??", asked Fornaro what marketing data prompted him to open the DCA hub. His answer was something like he didn't need any marketing data, anybody "knows" that DCA is a better market than anything located between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. So Fornaro and Leondard were fired from Northwest . . . "

http://www.planebuzz.com/2007/08/score_joe_leonard_minus_two_ti.html

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: LACA773
Posted 2009-06-15 07:56:03 and read 3784 times.



Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 41):
US has always had A321-200s. The ones for west flying are equipped with IAE-V2500 engines instead of CFM-56s.

Thank you for the clarification, COERJ145. I knew they had different more powerful engines, I just wasn't sure on where to get the information on that.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2009-06-15 10:45:40 and read 3334 times.

US fleet of A321s of whatever type so far has nothing to do with DCA transcon flights. It is easy enough to land at DCA with a 321 which US has done frequently. But for long range flights out of DCA, the only aircraft used thus far by any airline are A319, 73G, 757. This should clue us in that high performance jets are needed. A321 probably does not make the cut. Nor would the 737-900ER, probably.

Also remember the "loosening" proposal made public would only result in maybe 2 or 3 shifted flights, full stop. This is not a major shift in policy. I am not even sure the DEN flights count in this. AS LAX-DCA for another example would not be permitted to change at all, because LAX is not a "hub" for AS, so the flight does not qualify for this.u

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-15 10:57:28 and read 3280 times.



Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):
The 757 fleet is starting to get a bit tight at US, especially with frames continuing to be returned to lessors.

I was concerned about that.

The situation may in fact rise that US isn't in a position to capitalize on the legislative changes, if they are made.

That will really, really suck.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 40):
isn't thiis the main reason why they bought several (4 or more) 321-200s that have much improved performance in the air and take offs which they were going to base out West for transcon flying?



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 43):
Thank you for the clarification, COERJ145. I knew they had different more powerful engines, I just wasn't sure on where to get the information on that.

To be precise on this, the East A321-200s have CFM56-5B3s at 32,000 pounds certified (by the FAA anyway). The West have IAE V2533-A5 SelectOnes. The SelectOne enhancement gives you fuel economy, maintenance, and lifespan improvements. The engine itself is certified in the US at 33,000 pounds. The extra 1k per side certainly does help.

NS

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: SeaBosDca
Posted 2009-06-15 11:05:53 and read 3254 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 44):
But for long range flights out of DCA, the only aircraft used thus far by any airline are A319, 73G, 757.

Not quite true. Multiple airlines use 738s. And A320s may count as well depending on your definition of "long range."

I think you're right that A321s or 739ERs can't do transcons from DCA because of runway performance, though.

Quoting Thestooges (Reply 42):
The only thing I can find on the intenet is in a comment to someones blog on Plane Buzz, but at least it illustrates how unsuccesful the operation was and how badly it was planned.

Fascinating. If you can't make money from DCA, something is grievously wrong with your approach.

[Edited 2009-06-15 11:09:02]

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2009-06-15 15:06:41 and read 2935 times.



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 46):
Not quite true. Multiple airlines use 738s. And A320s

Okay, sorry yes the 738 along with the 737-700. About the A320, I am not too sure if US Airways runs them to PHX maybe? Otherwise, California or SEA are quite a bit further away. I am doubtful whether an A320 can make it DCA-LAX, but maybe someone else has a better sense.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Racers22
Posted 2009-06-15 16:22:53 and read 2870 times.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Republic Airways Holdings own many of the slots that US Airways currently uses at DCA? I thought they acquired a lot of US Airways slots when they provided a cash infusion to US Airways while Airways was in bankruptcy?

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: TheGMan
Posted 2009-06-15 19:49:12 and read 2774 times.



Quoting Pylon101 (Reply 37):
How could it possibly be if any A 319, 320 and 321 (with some restriction) can make it.
From Moscow SU A-320 makes SVO-MAD easily in 5.5. hours and SVO-LIS in 6+ hours - flying west against prevailing head winds.

Not saying they don't have aircraft that can make it there, I was trying to point out that they don't have any spare planes sitting idle. It would take lots of shuffling at cutting of flights elsewhere to make this happen.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):
Actually, the East A321's were originally delivered with 26 F seats.

I thought I remember being in F on a 321 right after they were delivered with first going from L1 to L2. I think it was CLT-SAN and there were lots of open F seats.

Quoting Racers22 (Reply 48):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Republic Airways Holdings own many of the slots that US Airways currently uses at DCA? I thought they acquired a lot of US Airways slots when they provided a cash infusion to US Airways while Airways was in bankruptcy?

I would not doubt this, Chautauqua and Republic operate a lot of the express flights in DCA.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: FLYjoe
Posted 2009-06-16 19:14:44 and read 2546 times.



Quoting Racers22 (Reply 48):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Republic Airways Holdings own many of the slots that US Airways currently uses at DCA? I thought they acquired a lot of US Airways slots when they provided a cash infusion to US Airways while Airways was in bankruptcy?

Yeah they did, but I believe US has 1st dibs to purchase the slots back should Republic choose to sell them.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-17 18:36:38 and read 2390 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 45):
The situation may in fact rise that US isn't in a position to capitalize on the legislative changes, if they are made.

There's no shortage of 319s.

Are they the best plane for the job? Arguably not. Are they suitable? Absolutely.

Topic: RE: What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?
Username: Ardent15
Posted 2009-06-17 18:45:02 and read 2372 times.



Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):

Not quite true. Multiple airlines use 738s. And A320s may count as well depending on your definition of "long range."

Yep. In fact, AA's BOS-LAX flights (which is a considerably longer distance than DCA-LAX) are 738s.


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