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Topic: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2009-06-05 06:53:48 and read 15400 times.

I am possibly going to travel to Europe in September, and I have a DL voucher that I would like to use to pay for part of my flights. It is likely that one of my return legs will be FRA-JFK. However, I have ran a search and the flight is being operated with a 757-200... I had high hopes that this would be a 777-200ER, A330-200 (with the NW substitutions) or 767-400ER route, but to my disappointment it is a 52. Is there too much offer of seats from LH, AA and SQ in this route or why is DL not sending a widebody to FRA from JFK?

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2009-06-05 06:56:03 and read 15399 times.

It's flown with a 757 because the loads don't rate a 777

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DFWEagle
Posted 2009-06-05 06:58:20 and read 15375 times.



Quoting EddieDude (Thread starter):
Is there too much offer of seats from LH, AA and SQ in this route or why is DL not sending a widebody to FRA from JFK?

AA does not fly JFK-FRA any more.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Hush-kit
Posted 2009-06-05 07:00:00 and read 15383 times.

FRA is highly dominated by STAR ALLIANCE , and DL had a hard time to fill their 763 during the last seasons. Just a lack of feeding traffic for DL for their JFK flight @ FRA.
AND, they are in the need to free 763 equipment based on their expansion plans .

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Tinpusher007
Posted 2009-06-05 07:02:58 and read 15355 times.

It's a combination of the things you mentioned plus the fact that DL needs it's widebodies elsewhere where more $$$ can be generated. DL has been rapidly expanding its international destinations; most noteworthy is their expansion into Africa requiring the use of many 767's that previously served Europe. Rather than purchase new aircraft, DL did a smart thing by converting existing 767's to ER's instead of sending them to MCO and other points in FL out of ATL. JFK-FRA hasn't seen anything bigger than a 763ER since DL closed it's Pan Am acquired hub there. Traffic is down worldwide, but especially to Europe. Some of the biggest markets like NYC-FRA have way too much capacity, so the logical thing to do to preserve their presence was to downgauge the flight to an ETOPS 752 rather than leaving the market altogether.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2009-06-05 07:03:33 and read 15354 times.

Delta probably shuld even fly JFK to FRA if it has come to using only a 757. Delta does well from ATL & CVG to FRA. Delta does poorly to northwest Europe against the multiple daily flights bu the European airlines to JFK from AMS, CDG, BRU and FRA. Delta is strong to southern Europe and eastern Europe.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Tinpusher007
Posted 2009-06-05 07:07:44 and read 15309 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5):
Delta probably shuld even fly JFK to FRA if it has come to using only a 757. Delta does well from ATL & CVG to FRA. Delta does poorly to northwest Europe against the multiple daily flights bu the European airlines to JFK from AMS, CDG, BRU and FRA. Delta is strong to southern Europe and eastern Europe.

Im assuming you mean DL shouldn't fly NYC-FRA. But what you've got to remember is that sheer number don't tell the whole story...profit does. And DL is not the least bit gun shy about pulling a route that doesn't work. There is alot more TATL flying with 757's now than at any point in the past. If sending a 767 makes the route lose money and a 757 allows them to make money, then they are doing the right thing.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2009-06-05 07:09:02 and read 15304 times.

Probably for the same reason that AA, CO, NW, and US also use 757s on a number of other routes, including to key western Europe business centers. The 757 is the right plane for some routes for some airlines. By the same token, CO is the sole US airline using the 762ER (true ER) while the big 3 all chose the 763ER because the 762 and 763 have very similar trip costs. Less capacity provides a greater opportunity to maximize revenue.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Dutchflyboi
Posted 2009-06-05 07:23:07 and read 15228 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
By the same token, CO is the sole US airline using the 762ER (true ER) while the big 3 all chose the 763ER because the 762 and 763 have very similar trip costs

CO operates the 767-400 on the EWR-FRA route

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Tinpusher007
Posted 2009-06-05 07:26:57 and read 15201 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
Less capacity provides a greater opportunity to maximize revenue.

IF it's a saturated market with low yeilds.

Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 8):
CO operates the 767-400 on the EWR-FRA route

I don't think he specifically meant they op the 762ER to FRA, just that they operate it at all, while almost everyone else in the US except US ops the 763ER.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2009-06-05 07:30:15 and read 15179 times.



Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 4):
DL did a smart thing by converting existing 767's to ER's instead of sending them to MCO and other points in FL out of ATL

Since when did DL convert their domestic 763s to 763ERs? They are still non-ER 763s. DL has only parked a few of them due to the economic environment. BTW, it isn't possible to convert most of them to 763ERs, as they mostly use GE CF6-80A2 engines. Only the four ETOPS aircraft (ships 1401-1404) can be converted to 763ERs as they have P&W PW4060 engines, however, DL does not plan on converting them. These particular aircraft are mostly used on LAX/SLC-HNL routes.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-06-05 07:37:05 and read 15133 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5):
Delta probably shuld even fly JFK to FRA if it has come to using only a 757.

That would leave the NYC-FRA market with no SkyTeam carrier, which would be a huge hole for the alliance.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-06-05 07:44:10 and read 15101 times.



Quoting EddieDude (Thread starter):

3 reasons. 1) ATL-FRA is a 764 2) it run on most O/D. Where ATL is big on needing feed. 3) it is a *A hub BUT i would assume that DL still has a fair group of FFs over there from the FRA hub days.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5):
Delta probably shuld even fly JFK to FRA if it has come to using only a 757.

Why do you dis like the 757 so much? Why do you think that EVERY market needs a 777 or larger or that carrier fails in said market. I hope you didn't look into COs winter LHR flights from EWR. As said above JFK-FRA on DL is mostly O/D. With CO,LH and SQ in the market also (all 3 being in *A) Delta isn't going to waste a 763 (much less a 764,332,333,777,744) on the route. Its alot like AA starting up ATL-NRT with a 777.......it may work but it would be the biggest waste of a 777 ever.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: FuturePilot16
Posted 2009-06-05 07:54:47 and read 15048 times.

What's wrong with a 752?

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-05 08:23:06 and read 14923 times.

I think its important that DL fly this route. They need a precence connecting NYC with FRA as they are two of the most important business centers in the world. Even if its just with at 752, they need to be there.

I am however wondering when DL will cancel CVG-FRA or at least move it to MSP. To me it makes no sense why DL would fly this route with all the downsizing CVG has recieved. I think this will happen before its said and done.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: STT757
Posted 2009-06-05 08:27:19 and read 14889 times.

1 daily 757 for DL between NYC and FRA is a far cry from the early Nineties when DL was flying L1011-500s and 767-300s from both EWR and JFK to FRA.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: OOer
Posted 2009-06-05 08:37:39 and read 14822 times.

Look, if DL can fill a 757 then so be it. No need to put anything bigger on the route when there is only enough demand for a 757. Plus you get PTV's where with a 767-300 you wouldn't.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: L1011Lover
Posted 2009-06-05 08:42:56 and read 14773 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
I am however wondering when DL will cancel CVG-FRA or at least move it to MSP. To me it makes no sense why DL would fly this route with all the downsizing CVG has recieved. I think this will happen before its said and done.

As long as DL has a hub in CVG they will fly to FRA from there. Even after all the downsizing at CVG it is after all still a major DL hub... people sometimes seem to forget about that fact. Also it makes a lot more sense for FRA passengers to connect through CVG instead of ATL on certain routes to the Mid-West, Northeast, Northwest of the US... where flying through ATL would be backtracking. They have a hub in CVG... why not use it... they sure wanna have a presence on aforementioned routes... And why in the world should they even consider moving it to MSP??? Even NW doesn't have a FRA-MSP nonstop... IF, and to me it's a big IF... they would move the flight somewhere else they'd ratehr offer a second FRA-DTW flight instead of flying to MSP... But I highly doubt that FRA-CVG will be terminated...

Anyone has any figures and info on how DL48/49 performs? The flight is mostly full, that's for sure... Any DL insiders have any info?

Best regards

L1011Lover

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: OOer
Posted 2009-06-05 08:48:10 and read 14730 times.

Loads on the CVG-FRA flight for the next week or so all show it being anywhere from a couple empty seats in the back to being oversold and about 40% full in business.

So tihs flight is doing great in the back, however because of the economic crisis is only on average 40% full up front.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: L1011Lover
Posted 2009-06-05 08:48:38 and read 14728 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
1 daily 757 for DL between NYC and FRA is a far cry from the early Nineties when DL was flying L1011-500s and 767-300s from both EWR and JFK to FRA.

Very, very true... but keep in mind that this was during the days when DL still had it's FRA hub and was the number 1 US carrier into FRA and Germany...

I miss those days...

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2009-06-05 09:05:12 and read 14660 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
1 daily 757 for DL between NYC and FRA is a far cry from the early Nineties when DL was flying L1011-500s and 767-300s from both EWR and JFK to FRA.

The JFKFRA flight continued to BOM; many of the destinations that were "beyond" the FRA hub now are served nonstop from JFK now. There is no doubt that DL's JFK hub is larger than it ever was and that DL still has access to more of Europe via its own metal and the Skyteam alliance than it ever did in the 90s.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 19):
Very, very true... but keep in mind that this was during the days when DL still had it's FRA hub and was the number 1 US carrier into FRA and Germany...

It still is true that DL serves more cities in Germany - and Europe - with its own aircraft than any other airline.
And with the exception of UA who has a JV with LH, I believe DL is still the largest airline in just about every German city. The same can be said about most other continental Europe cities as well.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: L1011Lover
Posted 2009-06-05 09:20:32 and read 14578 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20):
The JFKFRA flight continued to BOM; many of the destinations that were "beyond" the FRA hub now are served nonstop from JFK now. There is no doubt that DL's JFK hub is larger than it ever was and that DL still has access to more of Europe via its own metal and the Skyteam alliance than it ever did in the 90s.

Correct... DL106 (763) went from JFK to FRA then on to BOM, while DL72 (L15) went from JFK to FRA and on to IST with a scheduled change of equipment to a 72S at FRA. Now DL72 is a nonstop from JFK to IST.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20):
It still is true that DL serves more cities in Germany - and Europe - with its own aircraft than any other airline.
And with the exception of UA who has a JV with LH, I believe DL is still the largest airline in just about every German city. The same can be said about most other continental Europe cities as well.

You're absolutely right about that. DL is still the number 1 US carrier to Germany, and serves the most cities in Germany. UA is naturally the biggest US carrier in FRA now. But I think it's still not anywhere near the number of daily flights and capacity where PA and DL once were in FRA during the hub days...

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: SeaBosDca
Posted 2009-06-05 09:24:58 and read 14551 times.

The TATL 752 is one of DL's better international products. The cabins were comprehensively refurbished in 2007 and feature AVOD in Y.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: RwSEA
Posted 2009-06-05 09:34:31 and read 14507 times.

DL is unable to profitably compete in key business markets out of JFK, including LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, and FRA. However, they want to maintain a presence in these markets mainly so they can offer business contracts and premium pax an option to key business centers. Thus, they've downgraded to the smallest aircraft they can.

I hate the idea of a 757 transatlantic, but honestly, DL's 763s aren't a pleasant experience either. At least with DL, it's probably a wash.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: STT757
Posted 2009-06-05 09:44:28 and read 14451 times.



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 21):
You're absolutely right about that. DL is still the number 1 US carrier to Germany, and serves the most cities in Germany.

While DL serves the most Cities in Germany from the US, I doubt they carry more passengers than UA between the US and Germany.

UA has the following service to Germany;

FRA/MUC:

7 daily 777s, 1 daily 747-400, 1 daily 767-300

That's a lot of seats:

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2009-06-05 09:50:53 and read 14419 times.



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
DL is unable to profitably compete in key business markets out of JFK, including LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, and FRA.

By your logic then, other airlines, who choose to operate 757s into these markets are unable to compete as well?

Just trying to understand here.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-05 10:03:45 and read 15172 times.



Quoting OOer (Reply 18):
however because of the economic crisis is only on average 40% full up front.

I wouldnt label that as due to the economy. Other flights to FRA from other hubs in the US are preforming quite well in the front.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Tinpusher007
Posted 2009-06-05 10:08:58 and read 15135 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 10):
Since when did DL convert their domestic 763s to 763ERs? They are still non-ER 763s. DL has only parked a few of them due to the economic environment. BTW, it isn't possible to convert most of them to 763ERs, as they mostly use GE CF6-80A2 engines. Only the four ETOPS aircraft (ships 1401-1404) can be converted to 763ERs as they have P&W PW4060 engines, however, DL does not plan on converting them. These particular aircraft are mostly used on LAX/SLC-HNL routes.

I didn't mean the non-ER's What I should have said was that there were some ER's that were being used domestically and didn't have B.E., etc.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: STT757
Posted 2009-06-05 10:17:18 and read 15116 times.



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 25):
By your logic then, other airlines, who choose to operate 757s into these markets are unable to compete as well?

Who are you referring, AA, CO ?..

CO flies 757s in conjunction with Widebodies on most major Western European business routes:

LHR 2 757s, 1 777-200ER
CDG 2 757s, 1 767-400
BRU is a daily 777-200ER
AMS is 1 757 and 1 767-200
FRA is a daily 767-400
MAD 1 daily 757, 1 767-200

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: OA412
Posted 2009-06-05 10:45:55 and read 14726 times.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
DL is unable to profitably compete in key business markets out of JFK, including LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, and FRA.

And your source indicating that all of these flights are/were unprofitable is what?

[Edited 2009-06-05 10:46:30]

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: SeaBosDca
Posted 2009-06-05 10:46:50 and read 14720 times.



Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 27):
I didn't mean the non-ER's What I should have said was that there were some ER's that were being used domestically and didn't have B.E., etc.

Unless you mean 764ERs, there are not.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: L1011Lover
Posted 2009-06-05 11:05:21 and read 14514 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 26):
I wouldnt label that as due to the economy. Other flights to FRA from other hubs in the US are preforming quite well in the front.

That's not correct... LH for instance suffered losses in the premium classes on ALL flights to the US as well... and it's definitely because of the economy crisis...

Unless of course you were referring to DL services only??? But even then I highly doubt that they weren't experiencing the impact of the economy crisis on the premium classes on other flights as well...

My point is:
There is nothing wrong with CVG... it's low O/D that's true, the majority of traffic is connecting pax...

Like I said, as long as there is a CVG hub, there will be a CVG-FRA flight... it wouldn't make sense and definitely draw back passengers if DL would decide to route all FRA connecting traffic through ATL... the CVG hub and DL48/49 serves its purpose well... There is still need for that hub and that particular flight, otherwise it would be long gone (with all the other cutbacks)...

[Edited 2009-06-05 11:10:19]

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2009-06-05 11:34:31 and read 14194 times.



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
DL is unable to profitably compete in key business markets out of JFK, including LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, and FRA. However, they want to maintain a presence in these markets mainly so they can offer business contracts and premium pax an option to key business centers. Thus, they've downgraded to the smallest aircraft they can.

Statements like this are what make arguments start and threads locked. Unless you have access to DL's finances you have no idea what routes are profitable or unprofitable. And DL is upgrading JFK-LHR to its largest transatlantic equipment so what you've just said was false, if DL wanted to just "maintain" a presence on JFK-LHR they would fly a once daily 757-200 on the route and call it a day. If these routes are unprofitable what has kept DL from ending them altogether? AA will soon be downgrading quite a few 763 routes to 752s, so by your logic these routes must be unprofitable as well. Until you post some stats on DL's profitability for specific routes then your remarks have about as much credence as this one: "DL's routes over the Atlantic that are operated by 757s are the most profitable routes on earth!"  Yeah sure

Jeremy

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-05 11:45:12 and read 14055 times.



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 31):

I was speaking more specific to the CVG flight. I dont have much data for LH, just for AA. ORD-FRA J loads have taken a bit of a hit, DFW-FRA continues to have very high loads in J and F despite the economy. Ive heard ATL-FRA continues to maintain high J loads as well.
Im not too worried about UA/US/CO flights to FRA because of the Star connection.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 31):
There is nothing wrong with CVG... it's low O/D that's true, the majority of traffic is connecting pax...

Thats very true.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 31):
Like I said, as long as there is a CVG hub, there will be a CVG-FRA flight...

But with as CVG's flights dwindle, dont you think it might be possible that CVG-FRA would be vaunerable? I could see CVG maintaining service to CDG (for sure), AMS (because of the Skyteam connections), and LON (with a 757) even with continued dwindeling of the flights.

But as DL removes flights from CVG, that erases feed. As you correctly point out, CVG is a low O&D city to Europe.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: RwSEA
Posted 2009-06-05 11:47:37 and read 14054 times.



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 25):
By your logic then, other airlines, who choose to operate 757s into these markets are unable to compete as well?

Just trying to understand here.

For a carrier whose sole presence on an important business route like AMS or JFK - NYC is a once-daily 757, then I would say yes, they are a marginal competitor in the market and are not competitive. Carriers who fly multiple daily flights because they have a lack of aircraft or fly a mix of aircraft are a different case.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 29):
And your source indicating that all of these flights are/were unprofitable is what?

The fact that they were immediately downgauged to the smallest aircraft possible. And to your point about LHR, they would be stupid to cut something they just invested a lot of money into obtaining. But it's clear that DL is nowhere near the BA/AA/VS level in terms of their yeilds, as has been discussed MANY times on a.net, as well as investor calls which have confirmed that LHR is a weaker spot for the carrier.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 32):
AA will soon be downgrading quite a few 763 routes to 752s, so by your logic these routes must be unprofitable as well.

And that's fine. If all AA can sustain on JFK-CDG or whatever other route is a 752, then that's all they can profitably sustain. Who cares? Why are you so sensitive to such a comment? DL does fine on their widebody routes out of ATL, but they have a tough time competing in the bigger markets from JFK because there's so much competition (arguably with a better product). That's why 757s have been put on this route. Don't really see why pointing that out starts an argument.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: OB1504
Posted 2009-06-05 12:45:27 and read 13593 times.



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 22):
The TATL 752 is one of DL's better international products. The cabins were comprehensively refurbished in 2007 and feature AVOD in Y.

I was thinking this, too.

The 75W may not be the largest or most "prestigious" aircraft in Delta's fleet, but the interiors are leagues ahead of DL's primary long-haul workhorse, the 763. In all likelihood, passengers are receiving a much nicer product and DL gets to keep making money on the route. Win-win for all parties.


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Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Steex
Posted 2009-06-05 12:57:58 and read 13324 times.



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
DL is unable to profitably compete in key business markets out of JFK, including LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, and FRA.

While none of us can really substantiate whether or not these things are true, I think it's highly unlikely that AMS or CDG belongs in this statement. They are both JV cities and you have to look at the whole of AF/KL/DL/NW flying those routes. I would go so far as to say that DL and its JV partners probably have a leading position on JFK-AMS/CDG.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2009-06-05 13:15:56 and read 13169 times.



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 34):
For a carrier whose sole presence on an important business route like AMS or JFK - NYC is a once-daily 757, then I would say yes, they are a marginal competitor in the market and are not competitive.

So AA is a non-competitor/marginal competitor in JFK-BRU right given that they switched the route to a 757?

I'm just trying to understand the logic here.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: OA412
Posted 2009-06-05 13:24:02 and read 13078 times.



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 37):
So AA is a non-competitor/marginal competitor in JFK-BRU right given that they switched the route to a 757?

I'm just trying to understand the logic here.

Don't forget JFK-BCN where they also downgauged to a 757 while DL upgauged to a 764. I guess AA can't compete to BCN either.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2009-06-05 15:17:46 and read 12271 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 28):
CO flies 757s in conjunction with Widebodies on most major Western European business routes:

DL operates to many European cities from multiple hubs and all of that service from other hubs is on widebody aircraft. The fact that CO flies double daily from EWR with one widebody and one narrowbody doesn't make them any stronger competitor than DL or AA or UA or US or NW that have multiple gateways to multiple numbers of cities since there is very limited use of 757s outside of the NE.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 35):
The 75W may not be the largest or most "prestigious" aircraft in Delta's fleet, but the interiors are leagues ahead of DL's primary long-haul workhorse, the 763.

And the same thing could be said about the the DL 757 vs other types with other carriers and between different types with other carriers; no carrier has an identical product on every type of aircraft in its fleet.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2009-06-05 16:44:51 and read 11859 times.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 13):
What's wrong with a 752?

Yeah, seriously. PIT's happy to have a transatlantic DL 752; actually they're happy to have scheduled commercial flights to Europe again, albeit on a 757...

Plus, doesn't BA run 752s from JFK to LHR in addition to their widebody equipment? It's still a large plane capable of seating over 170 people and flying them up to about 4000 miles or so...

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 35):
Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 22):
The TATL 752 is one of DL's better international products. The cabins were comprehensively refurbished in 2007 and feature AVOD in Y.

I was thinking this, too.

The 75W may not be the largest or most "prestigious" aircraft in Delta's fleet, but the interiors are leagues ahead of DL's primary long-haul workhorse, the 763. In all likelihood, passengers are receiving a much nicer product and DL gets to keep making money on the route. Win-win for all parties.

Nice to know. In that sense, a 763 would be a downgrade. That's how I would see it anyway...  Smile

[Edited 2009-06-05 17:22:05]

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: CokePopper
Posted 2009-06-05 16:50:21 and read 11767 times.

The newest update that we (F/A's) are being told is that
when the 767's go in for new business elite seats, they will also get
PTV's for Y class. According to the recent online chat with Joanne Smith.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2009-06-05 17:01:19 and read 11658 times.



Quoting CokePopper (Reply 41):
The newest update that we (F/A's) are being told is that
when the 767's go in for new business elite seats, they will also get
PTV's for Y class. According to the recent online chat with Joanne Smith.

I wonder, will they get the Thompson Cozy Suites in Y, or will they get the Weber 5751 slimline seats with winged headrests? I know DL has stated they will soon be adding the Thompson Cozy Suites, however, the plans have been put on hold due to the NW buyout.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DLflynhayn
Posted 2009-06-05 17:59:21 and read 11377 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
1 daily 757 for DL between NYC and FRA is a far cry from the early Nineties when DL was flying L1011-500s and 767-300s from both EWR and JFK to FRA

DL also had LAX-FRA in the mid nineties with the MD-11.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DAirbus
Posted 2009-06-05 18:08:31 and read 11336 times.



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 30):

Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 27):
I didn't mean the non-ER's What I should have said was that there were some ER's that were being used domestically and didn't have B.E., etc.

Unless you mean 764ERs, there are not.

Ships 1701-1708 were converted from a domestic configuration to international about 3 years ago. I think these are the 767ER's Tinpusher was referring to.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Jetlanta
Posted 2009-06-05 18:32:10 and read 11198 times.



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 34):

For a carrier whose sole presence on an important business route like AMS or JFK - NYC is a once-daily 757, then I would say yes, they are a marginal competitor in the market and are not competitive. Carriers who fly multiple daily flights because they have a lack of aircraft or fly a mix of aircraft are a different case.



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 34):

The fact that they were immediately downgauged to the smallest aircraft possible. And to your point about LHR, they would be stupid to cut something they just invested a lot of money into obtaining. But it's clear that DL is nowhere near the BA/AA/VS level in terms of their yeilds, as has been discussed MANY times on a.net, as well as investor calls which have confirmed that LHR is a weaker spot for the carrier.

Of course, none of this means that the routes you mentioned are unprofitable. If the 757 is the right size aircraft for Delta on these routes, they very well could be profitable. I'm not saying they are, but the argument that downsizing to a 757 means that they are unprofitable is a huge leap. In fact, the argument FOR downgrading the routes was to improve profit performance. If you've only got say 16 paid C class paxs, a 757 is likely going to be a more profitable aircraft than a 767.

Regarding LHR, it is insane to expect that DL is going to perform anywhere near BA/AA/VS for years. Anyone who suggest otherwise knows nothing about this business. The 764 is designed to improve DL's competitive presence in the market. It will take many moves in terms of product and sales activity over many years to get DL on par with the long-term incumbents.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: BinMonster
Posted 2009-06-05 18:59:53 and read 11109 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
wondering when DL will cancel CVG-FRA or at least move it to MSP. To me it makes no sense why DL would fly this route with all the downsizing CVG has recieved. I think this will happen before its said and done.

Four Letters drive CVG to FRA / Eurpoe

P&G GE

P&G for the passenger side

GE for Cargo.

The number of banks have been reduced at CVG.

However one of the largest banks feed - CDG(767) - FRA(767)- LGW(767) - AMS (757)

numbers for 05JUN
44 CDG BC 34 YC 166 CARGO 19,000LBS OUT TO OFF TIME 14MINS

48 FRA BC 35 YC 181 CARGO 5,000LBS OUT TO OFF TIME 16MINS

36 LGW BC 29 YC 169 CARGO 22,000LBS OUT TO OFF TIME 19MINS

42 AMS BC 15 YC 83 CARGO 1,500LBS OUT TO OFF TIME 13MINS


Going to Europe connect at CVG and enjoy great service and on time flights.
Or you can sit in gridlock at JFK - ORD - ATL.

CVG still works as a very lean hub.

The Fall Schedule is due out in about two weeks

[Edited 2009-06-05 19:07:31]

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: CokePopper
Posted 2009-06-05 19:34:35 and read 10874 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 42):
I wonder, will they get the Thompson Cozy Suites in Y, or will they get the Weber 5751 slimline seats with winged headrests? I know DL has stated they will soon be adding the Thompson Cozy Suites, however, the plans have been put on hold due to the NW buyout.

That's a good question. I would hope that if the Cozy Suites are approved, they would
go right into installing them with PTV's. instead of installing PVT's on regular seats only
to have to change a few years down the road.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-05 23:28:07 and read 10038 times.

I'm sure they have a contractual obligation which keeps the plane on the route.

NS

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-06-06 01:11:59 and read 9770 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
I think its important that DL fly this route. They need a precence connecting NYC with FRA as they are two of the most important business centers in the world. Even if its just with at 752, they need to be there.

just like them starting JFK-ZRH. Its only 752 but its a need route for SkyTeam

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
I am however wondering when DL will cancel CVG-FRA or at least move it to MSP. To me it makes no sense why DL would fly this route with all the downsizing CVG has recieved. I think this will happen before its said and done.

Not as long as it has contracts to back it up.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
1 daily 757 for DL between NYC and FRA is a far cry from the early Nineties when DL was flying L1011-500s and 767-300s from both EWR and JFK to FRA.

this is true but the FRA hub had alot to do with that.

Quoting OOer (Reply 16):
Plus you get PTV's where with a 767-300 you wouldn't.

and people like RwSEA would be crying about it.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, and FRA.

LHR 2x daily 2x 764
CDG 4x daily 2x 77W 1x 77E 1x 343
AMS 3x daily 2x 77E 1x 75A (and one of the 777 flights is a 744 one some days of the week).
Looks like alot more than a 1x daily 75E.  Wink

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
I hate the idea of a 757 transatlantic, but honestly, DL's 763s aren't a pleasant experience either. At least with DL, it's probably a wash.

IMO then you should fly Delta. IDK how you could have lived back in the good old days of 707,742s L1011 DC10. I guess you just went for a long swim.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 25):
By your logic then, other airlines, who choose to operate 757s into these markets are unable to compete as well?

So then CO's EWR hub and US PHL hub a worthless also. IMO he thinks he knows how well Deltas flights do but really has no idea.  Wink

Quoting STT757 (Reply 28):

Oh goodness look at the 757s.......no way CO is making money in EWR  Yeah sure

Quoting Steex (Reply 36):
While none of us can really substantiate whether or not these things are true, I think it's highly unlikely that AMS or CDG belongs in this statement. They are both JV cities and you have to look at the whole of AF/KL/DL/NW flying those routes. I would go so far as to say that DL and its JV partners probably have a leading position on JFK-AMS/CDG.

All Citys in europe are now covered by the JV. DL/AF/KL are one across the Atlantaic now.

Quoting CokePopper (Reply 47):
That's a good question. I would hope that if the Cozy Suites are approved, they would
go right into installing them with PTV's. instead of installing PVT's on regular seats only
to have to change a few years down the road.

They will have to get seats if PTVs no matter what(the main reason DL has been holding back) Just like the 767-300As. The seats on them now are to short for PTVs.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2009-06-06 03:37:32 and read 9210 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 49):
They will have to get seats if PTVs no matter what(the main reason DL has been holding back) Just like the 767-300As. The seats on them now are to short for PTVs.

Actually, the seats on the 763As (except for the four ETOPS aircraft) were actually shorter than the 763ER seats. Still, the current seats on the 763ERs are too short for PTVs.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2009-06-06 06:18:28 and read 8460 times.



Quoting Hush-kit (Reply 3):
Just a lack of feeding traffic for DL for their JFK flight @ FRA.
AND, they are in the need to free 763 equipment based on their expansion plans .

Expansion plans????? DL plans to cut international capacity this year.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2009-06-06 06:42:32 and read 8325 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 12):
Why do you think that EVERY market needs a 777 or larger or that carrier fails in said market. I hope you didn't look into COs winter LHR flights from EWR. As said above JFK-FRA on DL is mostly O/D. With CO,LH and SQ in the market also (all 3 being in *A) Delta isn't going to waste a 763 (much less a 764,332,333,777,744) on the route. Its alot like AA starting up ATL-NRT with a 777.......it may work but it would be the biggest waste of a 777 ever.

757 have there use to Europe to secondary cities like Malaga, Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc. Or from a secondary USA city like Clevealnd to LHR.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 28):
LHR 2 757s, 1 777-200ER
CDG 2 757s, 1 767-400
BRU is a daily 777-200ER
AMS is 1 757 and 1 767-200
FRA is a daily 767-400
MAD 1 daily 757, 1 767-200

Continental flies a 777 to Brussels but only once a day, how about 2 777 to LHR and 2 757 to BRU, I don't believe in 757 to LHR from New York since BA and Virgin operate so many 744, 777 and A340's to EWR and JFK from LHR. The value of LHR slots speak for themselves.

Not everything is suitable for a 777, but a 767 would do. I realize Delta is now flying nonstop to many places east of FRA served via FRA before. JFK to FRA was served for many years by TWA with no feed at the FRA end. IF Delta has been reduced to using a 757 to FRA from JFK that us DL's doing not the markets fault.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-06 07:21:21 and read 8174 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 49):
Not as long as it has contracts to back it up.

Do they have contracts for CVG-FRA? If they do, it would explain why they would keep it around.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: STT757
Posted 2009-06-06 07:27:42 and read 8204 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 52):
Continental flies a 777 to Brussels but only once a day,

Which is much more capacity than AA and DL's single daily 757s.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 52):
how about 2 777 to LHR and 2 757 to BRU

CO's EWR-BRU route is very profitable, hence the 777-200ER. Perhaps CO will put more widebodies on EWR-LHR in the future, they have 8 777-200ER, 8 787-8s and 17 787-9s on order.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 52):
I don't believe in 757 to LHR from New York since BA and Virgin operate so many 744, 777 and A340's to EWR and JFK from LHR. The value of LHR slots speak for themselves.

The NYC-LHR market is heavily diluted, which is why BA has been fighting CO, DL, US access. BA, AA, UA and VS were enjoying artificially high yields due to the restrictive nature of LHR. The yields have come down with the added competition, CO's strategy with EWR-LHR is to add frequency. If they could CO would be flying 7 daily 757s between EWR and LHR, who knows maybe one day they will.

In the '90s CO was flying double daily 747s between EWR-LGW.


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Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Steex
Posted 2009-06-06 08:21:12 and read 8074 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 49):
All Citys in europe are now covered by the JV. DL/AF/KL are one across the Atlantaic now.

I should've worded it more carefully; AMS and CDG are major non-stop JV cities out of JFK. While the joint venture also applies to all other flights across the pond, in many cases the only non-stop JFK flights are operated by DL (such as the case with LHR). In the case of AMS and CDG, however, looking only at DL's flights doesn't give an accurate picture.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: NYC-AIR
Posted 2009-06-06 17:11:49 and read 7861 times.

My understanding is that their 757s have AVOD, whereas the 763ERs have communal screens. PAX flying the 757s will probably be impressed.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2009-06-06 19:25:02 and read 7718 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 54):
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 52):
Continental flies a 777 to Brussels but only once a day,

Which is much more capacity than AA and DL's single daily 757s.

Again, CO serves BRU from precisely one US gateway... not so with its competition.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-06 19:55:05 and read 7679 times.

CO also is serving BRU from their major New York hub, on top of their huge portfolios of business travelers in the area.

New York - Brussels is a huge market, and their feed makes it even bigger.

NS

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: CALPSAFltSkeds
Posted 2009-06-06 20:08:17 and read 7659 times.



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 58):
CO also is serving BRU from their major New York hub, on top of their huge portfolios of business travelers in the area.

New York - Brussels is a huge market, and their feed makes it even bigger.

CO's use of the 772ER, when available, is a clear indication of the BF demand that CO can attract on the NYC-BRU route. That gives CO 50 BF seats vs. DL's total of 51 BF seats on two BRU flights. ATL 35 BF in narrow six across configuration and 16 BF on a 752 out of JFK.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Panamair
Posted 2009-06-07 00:32:45 and read 7490 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 52):
JFK to FRA was served for many years by TWA with no feed at the FRA end. IF Delta has been reduced to using a 757 to FRA from JFK that us DL's doing not the markets fault.

And you know for a fact that TWA made money flying to FRA all those years? Not to mention that markets are dynamic; the market at the time TWA and Pan Am were flying to FRA is nowhere near the same as the current situation - making such a comparison is comparing apples to oranges.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: FlyAA757
Posted 2009-06-07 09:11:46 and read 7267 times.

I flew DL106 JFK-FRA on a 763 and DL73 IST-FRA-JFK on 722/L15 in 1991...those were the days!

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-06-07 11:02:50 and read 7147 times.



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 45):
Of course, none of this means that the routes you mentioned are unprofitable. If the 757 is the right size aircraft for Delta on these routes, they very well could be profitable. I'm not saying they are, but the argument that downsizing to a 757 means that they are unprofitable is a huge leap. In fact, the argument FOR downgrading the routes was to improve profit performance. If you've only got say 16 paid C class paxs, a 757 is likely going to be a more profitable aircraft than a 767.

Admittedly, we can't be sure whether JFK-FRA is profitable without a lot more data than is publicly available, but we can compare load factors for various carriers to FRA...

January, 2008
DL JFK 60%
DL ATL 83%
DL CVG 66%
AA DFW 81%
AA ORD 60%
CO EWR 59%
NW DTW 62%
UA IAD 81%
UA LAX 74%
UA ORD 78%
US CLT 78%
US PHL 64%
LH ATL 77%
LH BOS 88%
LH DEN 79%
LH DFW 83%
LH DTW 71%
LH EWR 87%
LH IAD 86%
LH IAH 76%
LH JFK 85%
LH LAX 87%
LH MCO 87%
LH MIA 92%
LH PDX 77%
LH PHL 70%
LH SFO 84%

June, 2008
DL JFK 80%
DL ATL 92%
DL CVG 87%
AA DFW 93%
AA ORD 90%
CO EWR 79%
NW DTW 93%
UA IAD 86%
UA LAX 91%
UA ORD 91%
US CLT 93%
US PHL 87%
LH ATL 94%
LH BOS 94%
LH DEN 95%
LH DFW 96%
LH EWR 89%
LH IAD 92%
LH IAH 91%
LH JFK 83%
LH LAX 92%
LH MCO 83%
LH MIA 83%
LH ORD 96%
LH PDX 92%
LH PHL 91%
LH SEA 89%
LH SFO 95%

These data suggest, I think, that NYC-FRA has too much capacity--EWR and JFK seem to have lower l/fs than comparable stations in both winter and summer. If NYC-FRA in fact has too much capacity, that suggests to me that a 75A is a good aircraft for the job. DL obviously wants to maintain a presence in NYC-FRA (a sensible proposition, by the way), but does so with the smallest aircraft possible while routing connections over CVG and ATL (which see better loads on larger a/c, as does DTW-FRA).

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2009-06-07 11:10:39 and read 7116 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 57):
Again, CO serves BRU from precisely one US gateway... not so with its competition.

That's all they need. What the competition do is entirely their own concern

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: L1011Lover
Posted 2009-06-07 11:27:26 and read 7076 times.



Quoting Panamair (Reply 60):
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 52):
JFK to FRA was served for many years by TWA with no feed at the FRA end. IF Delta has been reduced to using a 757 to FRA from JFK that us DL's doing not the markets fault.

And you know for a fact that TWA made money flying to FRA all those years? Not to mention that markets are dynamic; the market at the time TWA and Pan Am were flying to FRA is nowhere near the same as the current situation - making such a comparison is comparing apples to oranges.

TWA terminated it's JFK-FRA-JFK service in january of 1997, and never returned to FRA. Even though they had plans to resume service to FRA from it's STL hub early in 2001 shortly before being taken over by AA. Of course -as we all know- those plans never materialized.

TWA wasn't able to compete in the NYC-FRA market anymore and lost money on the route. So they decided to end all FRA services. January 13, 1997 was the last day of operation for TW740/741 JFK-FRA-JFK after 46 years (except for a short period in the 70's after a route swap with Pan Am in which TWA suspended its Frankfurt service while Pan Am in return left Paris).

Best regards

L1011Lover

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DeltaCTO
Posted 2009-06-07 12:13:35 and read 6994 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20):
The JFKFRA flight continued to BOM; many of the destinations that were "beyond" the FRA hub now are served nonstop from JFK now. There is no doubt that DL's JFK hub is larger than it ever was and that DL still has access to more of Europe via its own metal and the Skyteam alliance than it ever did in the 90s.



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 21):
Correct... DL106 (763) went from JFK to FRA then on to BOM, while DL72 (L15) went from JFK to FRA and on to IST with a scheduled change of equipment to a 72S at FRA. Now DL72 is a nonstop from JFK to IST.

At FRA's peak - DL flew nonstop:
JFK - 2
EWR
IAD
ATL - 2
MCO
CVG
DFW
LAX
SFO

Beyond FRA to:
IST
BOM
SVO
LED
WAW
ATH
BUD
VIE-OTP

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: L1011Lover
Posted 2009-06-07 13:07:50 and read 6915 times.



Quoting DeltaCTO (Reply 65):
At FRA's peak - DL flew nonstop:
JFK - 2
EWR
IAD
ATL - 2
MCO
CVG
DFW
LAX
SFO

Beyond FRA to:
IST
BOM
SVO
LED
WAW
ATH
BUD
VIE-OTP

Very well informed... that's all correct.

But you may add PRG to the beyond FRA list, as well as DEL and DL also flew from FRA to LGW at one point with full 5th freedom rights...

Best regards

L1011Lover

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Ocracoke
Posted 2009-06-07 20:48:58 and read 6668 times.



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 52):
JFK to FRA was served for many years by TWA with no feed at the FRA end. IF Delta has been reduced to using a 757 to FRA from JFK that us DL's doing not the markets fault.

TWA withered on the vine for quite a while in FRA. They went from a B747 to a L1011 to a B767 to totally pulling out of the JFK-FRA market. This well before being taken over by AA. And speaking of AA, they also pulled out of the JFK-FRA market. So I think that both TW and AA not making it, and DL downgrading to a B757 has more to do with the market than with any particular airline.

Quoting DeltaCTO (Reply 65):
At FRA's peak - DL flew nonstop:
JFK - 2
EWR
IAD
ATL - 2
MCO
CVG
DFW
LAX
SFO

CVG was 2X (DL48 and DL86)
MIA (DL116)
DTW (via LGW) flight, over which NW took DL to court. DL won the court case, but then turned around and sold the route to NW anyways. That is how NW got into the DTW-London market.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: United1
Posted 2009-06-07 21:08:05 and read 6633 times.



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 66):
DL also flew from FRA to LGW at one point with full 5th freedom rights...

Didn't know about that one, UA got the LHR-FRA rights from PA didn't realize that DL operated the flights as well.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Hjulicher
Posted 2009-06-07 23:04:04 and read 6539 times.



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 31):
there will be a CVG-FRA flight... it wouldn't make sense and definitely draw back passengers if DL would decide to route all FRA connecting traffic through ATL... the CVG hub and DL48/49 serves its purpose well... There is still need for that hub and that particular flight, otherwise it would be long gone (with all the other cutbacks)...

Unfortunately for CVG, the new DL hub up in DTW does everything that CVG can do. However, if infact CVG has contracts, then I can see the reasoning for keeping the flight, but if it's a reliever or connecting hub airport, than DTW fits the role much better. Two summers ago (before the economic catastrophe) DTW had 4 daily flights to FRA. Albeit, one NW 75A was a response to LH's double daily A330. Anyways, times have changed and the automotive sector is suffering (both in Detroit and in Germany) so there is less premium traffic. However, LH has upgraded to a A340 for the summer period.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 62):

Do you happen to have the LH June 2008 statistics for DTW?

If DL does in fact dismantle the CVG hub, do you think it at all possible that they would run a shuttle service to/from ATL and DTW for the DL fliers in CVG? I'm sure a focus city in CVG would remain but for long-hauls would surely leave. Thus, for the business contracts, would they reroute those business and leisure passengers throught the other hubs with some sort of stream-lined shuttle service like the NorthEast Shuttle service?

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Cgnnrw
Posted 2009-06-08 05:11:11 and read 6342 times.

I've flown DL FRA-JFK on their 757, DUS-ATL on the 763 and ATL-FRA on the 764. The best was the 764 flight. The IFE and wider cabin made it a more enjoyable experience. The 752 wasn't terrible, I did like the individual TV screens though. The 763 trip was okay...interior was a bit tattered and old with overhead screens. The one thing that was good across the board were the F/As. Very nice and professional.

Go ahead and book your flight and make the best out of it.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2009-06-08 06:11:19 and read 6262 times.



Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 69):
Unfortunately for CVG, the new DL hub up in DTW does everything that CVG can do. However, if infact CVG has contracts

Once again, DL has 80+% of a $900M market in CVG.... DL will do everything possible to eliminate duplication between CVG and DTW that add costs but they will also DAP to keep a large enough hub size to maintain the local market. There are plenty of other airlines that have downsized hubs only to lose the local market; DL is not following those examples.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-06-08 06:43:20 and read 6198 times.

The large number of European pax from Skyteam AF/KLM and Delta/NWA are chaneled through the AMS and CDG hubs. High frequency flight to all large / medium cities in germany are part for that. Dozens of daily widebody flight from the 2 European hubs to a few dozen of US destinations, including mentioned US hubs. FRA is a spoke in the JFK European operation. A direct JFK-FRA flight is necessary to keep key customers happy / keep LH honest on New york flights.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-06-08 07:06:40 and read 6155 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 53):
Do they have contracts for CVG-FRA? If they do, it would explain why they would keep it around.

IIRC this is why its still a 767.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 69):
Unfortunately for CVG, the new DL hub up in DTW does everything that CVG can do

With what they have been loading into the system they have been cuting/downgrading routes from DTW to places closer to CVG and visa versa. I don't think the CVG hub is going anywhere. IMO DTW is going to get smaller and CVG may grow a little but it should be pretty flat.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 69):
If DL does in fact dismantle the CVG hub, do you think it at all possible that they would run a shuttle service to/from ATL and DTW for the DL fliers in CVG? I'm sure a focus city in CVG would remain but for long-hauls would surely leave. Thus, for the business contracts, would they reroute those business and leisure passengers throught the other hubs with some sort of stream-lined shuttle service like the NorthEast Shuttle service?

read above.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-08 08:00:32 and read 6098 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 73):
IIRC this is why its still a 767.

It would have to be. I dont think the 757 could make it.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 73):
IMO DTW is going to get smaller and CVG may grow a little but it should be pretty flat.

But DL has already shown that the opposite is happening. CVG has lost flights in favor of DTW and continues to. Two examples that pop into mind are CVG-FCO and CVG-SNA which were both shifted to DTW. I believe that trend will continue.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 69):
I'm sure a focus city in CVG would remain but for long-hauls would surely leave.

I think CVG will always have a flight to CDG and probably a 757 to LON. Beyond that, the other two longhauls are vaunerable. The only way CVG-FRA will stick around is if that flight has contracts. If not, it will be gone at some point.

Reguardless of the the economy, DL will favor DTW over CVG if it boils down to it.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 71):
DL will do everything possible to eliminate duplication between CVG and DTW that add costs but they will also DAP to keep a large enough hub size to maintain the local market.

The big question becomes, how big does a hub have to be to keep the local market? Given the economy and the continued shrinking of the CVG hub, DL could easily cut one or two long haul routes and still keep loyalty in Cincinatti.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2009-06-08 10:11:47 and read 5950 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 74):
I think CVG will always have a flight to CDG and probably a 757 to LON. Beyond that, the other two longhauls are vaunerable. The only way CVG-FRA will stick around is if that flight has contracts. If not, it will be gone at some point.

I believe that almost certainly flights from CVG to CDG and AMS will always exist.

NS

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-06-08 10:20:26 and read 5943 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 74):
But DL has already shown that the opposite is happening. CVG has lost flights in favor of DTW and continues to. Two examples that pop into mind are CVG-FCO and CVG-SNA which were both shifted to DTW. I believe that trend will continue.

DL is playing the If its closer game. Plus it will be a little more clear ina few days.
DTW is going to be getting alot more RJs.
DL is lossing money in both citys and they are trying to make both work. From what i have read the new fares in CVG are working this time around.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-08 10:27:11 and read 5928 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 76):
DL is playing the If its closer game.

With DTW-SNA? CVG was closer.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DLDTW1962
Posted 2009-06-08 10:36:07 and read 5892 times.

I think DL is doing the right thing. Some of these airlines are flying with 80 passenager on the larger aircraft and they are not making any money on the route. If you have to down size then do it. And don't knock the B757. I love this aircraft and have flown over the pond in them many of times. You just have to choose your airline correctly to get the best service and have a nice cabin. As for moving another flight to DTW to serve FRA. We have 2 daily non-stops now using A330 on both flights (1) LH and (1) DL/NW. In the summer time if demand is high enough LH will add a 3 x's weekly flight. And that aircraft is any one of these models. A330, B744 or A343. So I don't think DTW can handle another FRA flight. LHR or LGW flights yes we could use more of these.

Chuck

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-06-08 10:37:20 and read 5885 times.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 77):
With DTW-SNA? CVG was closer.

ok save for SNA lol.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-08 11:10:20 and read 5802 times.



Quoting DLDTW1962 (Reply 78):
As for moving another flight to DTW to serve FRA.

Im dont think (if) DL cancels CVG-FRA it will be moved. Probably they will just cancel it.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 79):

It will be interesting to see what DL has up their sleeve reguarding CVG and DTW. I dont think that CVG and DTW having the same amount of flights they do now is sustainable. This could bring forth a couple of different scenarios:

1) Cutting more capacity at CVG and cutting a little bit of capacity from DTW.
2) Cutting capacity from both airports evenly.

I think scenario #1 is the most likely. Im not saying DL will abandon its precence at CVG. As WorldTraveler correctly points out, DL will do whats necesary to keep the CVG market in its pocket. However, the question is what is necesary for that? Do they really need 4 flights to Europe to keep the CVG market? I personally dont think so.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Bridge
Posted 2009-06-08 14:44:59 and read 5682 times.

I recently flew BOS-AMS on a 752 in coach and it was surprising comfortable....the seat pitch was quite generous and the aisle seemed quite wide. In fact, much more comfortable than the KLM 777 I connected to enroute to DXB.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2009-06-09 09:12:29 and read 5348 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 71):
There are plenty of other airlines that have downsized hubs only to lose the local market; DL is not following those examples.

Are you referring to Delta at DFW?

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-09 09:18:47 and read 5337 times.



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 82):
Are you referring to Delta at DFW?

You said it, I didnt.  Wink

Although to be fair DL was always playing second fiddle at DFW (third fiddle if you could WN at DAL) unlike CVG where they dominate the market.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Hjulicher
Posted 2009-06-09 09:27:04 and read 5334 times.

When are the fall schedules released? I think that with DL cutting 10% of INTL flying, all hubs will be affected, as will frequency. That means fewer XXX-AMS flying and fewer XXX-CDG flying as well as reductions to leisure destinations across Europe in the winter. I almost exclusively think that much of the reductions will be in the European flying.


How do routes like JFK-PSA and the like perform during the winter? Esp with eq like 763ER?

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: STT757
Posted 2009-06-09 10:04:41 and read 5263 times.



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 82):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 71):
There are plenty of other airlines that have downsized hubs only to lose the local market; DL is not following those examples.

Are you referring to Delta at DFW?



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 83):
You said it, I didnt.  

Although to be fair DL was always playing second fiddle at DFW (third fiddle if you could WN at DAL) unlike CVG where they dominate the market.

You might also include MCO, I used to fly DL into MCO in the early '90s from EWR. DL owned MCO, they got that brand new air side, announced a bunch of new routes to Latin America (were in the timetables but never were launched) and had the FRA nonstop. They had mainline nonstops from MCO to;

ATL (10 daily) , BWI (2 daily), BOS (4 daily), BHM (1 mainline, 3 Comair), ORD (3 daily) , CVG (3 daily) , CLE (2 daily), CMH (1 daily), DFW (5 daily), DTW (1 daily), FLL (3 mainline daily), RSW (3 daily), Frankfurt (1 daily), BDL (2 daily), IND ( 2 daily), LAX (3 daily), MEX (1 daily), MIA (3 daily mainline), Nassau (1 daily), MSY (3 daily), EWR ( 4 daily), JFK (2 daily), LGA (4 daily), PHL (3 daily), PVD (1 daily), SLC (2 daily), SJU ( 1 daily), SRQ (5 daily mainline), TPA (3 daily mainline), DCA (3 daily), PBI (4 daily mainline)

81 daily mainline nonstops, no Delta Express, no SONG, no Regional Jets. That would make MCO's '90s mainline schedule nearly double CVG's current mainline schedule.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2009-06-09 11:52:43 and read 5184 times.



Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 84):

How do routes like JFK-PSA and the like perform during the winter?

There is a large U.S. military pressence in Pisa that might help to keep that route up during off-peak even.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: DeltaCTO
Posted 2009-06-09 12:59:24 and read 5119 times.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 85):
You might also include MCO, I used to fly DL into MCO in the early '90s from EWR. DL owned MCO, they got that brand new air side, announced a bunch of new routes to Latin America (were in the timetables but never were launched) and had the FRA nonstop



Quoting STT757 (Reply 85):
81 daily mainline nonstops, no Delta Express, no SONG, no Regional Jets. That would make MCO's '90s mainline schedule nearly double CVG's current mainline schedule.

YES !! MCO was supposed to be DL's Latin America Gateway.
Those schedules were indeed loaded into the Reservations System

At one point in the early 90's DL operated MCO-LGW and MCO-ORY
Neither flight lasted very long

Also DL operated CVG-MUC and CVG-ZRH altho not at the same time
Both flights were long gone before CVG-AMS

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: L1011Lover
Posted 2009-06-19 18:55:29 and read 4626 times.

Now it's official... CVG-FRA-CVG will be terminated in september... along with CVG-LGW-CVG.

SHOCKING!!! I would have never expected that...

that's MY flight... I've lived between LEX and CVG... still have family there... I guess I have to fly through ATL now more often...

Very disappointing news... I would hev never expected CVG to lose its FRA flight...

This flight DL48/49 has been around forever... DL started service to FRA 30 years ago and I think this flight has been part of the DL network for at least 20 years...  Sad

it has outlived all the cuts in the past... times have changed obviously... and definitely not for the good. CVG has to be one of the most convenient airports and is definietly my preferred place for making flight connections and especially transferring from international to domestic and vice-versa... everything is new, clean, smooth, well signed, has all an international hub needs but isn't too huge... immigration is like a breeze... changing planes in CVG has always been a hassle-free experience...

I'm VERY, VERY disappointed... DL48/49 will be missed... wondering if it will come back some day? Or what they will do with the flight number? Retire it or use it on DTW-FRA-DTW once the merger with NW is complete? By the way, is this flight still operated as NW50/51 or did they already change flight numbers on certain routes?

Best regards

L1011Lover

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2009-06-19 19:42:49 and read 4555 times.



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 88):

Now it's official... CVG-FRA-CVG will be terminated in september...

It did seem like this flight was vaunerable though. With CVG dwindleing, this flight stuck out as the most likely to go of the Transatlantic flights from CVG. I was surprised that DL cut all transatlantic service but CDG. I though AMS would hang around too.

Thats why a week before the flight was canceled, I said:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
I am however wondering when DL will cancel CVG-FRA or at least move it to MSP. To me it makes no sense why DL would fly this route with all the downsizing CVG has recieved. I think this will happen before its said and done.

and

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33):
But with as CVG's flights dwindle, dont you think it might be possible that CVG-FRA would be vaunerable? I could see CVG maintaining service to CDG (for sure), AMS (because of the Skyteam connections), and LON (with a 757) even with continued dwindeling of the flights.

Im afraid I did see it coming, though I was certainly not the only one.

Topic: RE: Why Is DL's JFK-FRA Operated With 757-200?
Username: Avek00
Posted 2009-06-19 20:33:37 and read 4510 times.



Quoting EddieDude (Thread starter):
Is there too much offer of seats from LH, AA and SQ in this route or why is DL not sending a widebody to FRA from JFK?

Because Delta has p*ssed away its historic strength in the FRA market.


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