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Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Yellowtail
Posted 2009-07-01 07:40:52 and read 34700 times.

Anyone else see this.....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6612165.ece

I doubt this will ever happen

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Jetfuel
Posted 2009-07-01 07:45:13 and read 34648 times.

Its a news article about something that is not fact....

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Swallow
Posted 2009-07-01 07:51:51 and read 34524 times.

Airbus issued an advisory. It does not ground planes; airlines do

Seems to me that:

If a plane made by manufacturer X crashes, we blame the crew, weather or airline

If a plane made by manufacturer Y crashes, we blame the manufacturer!

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: JAL
Posted 2009-07-01 07:53:16 and read 34487 times.

If it's true, this would create travel chaos all over the airline industry!

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Yellowtail
Posted 2009-07-01 07:53:28 and read 34495 times.



Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 1):
Its a news article about something that is not fact....

Nevertheless it is being published in major newspapers like the Times and USAtoday.....having this in the press is almost worse that actually grounding the aircraft.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-07-01 08:04:13 and read 34237 times.



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 4):
Nevertheless it is being published in major newspapers like the Times and USAtoday.....

unfortunately with falling circulation newspapers can no longer afford proper journalists , these days being a 'journalist' seems to consist of trawling the internet and quoting whatever random nonsense is found . Nobody knows what caused this crash despite everything being spouted as 'fact' here and in the media . To ground a 1000 aircraft on the strength of nothing more than lazy 'journalism' seems a bit extreme .

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Rsg85
Posted 2009-07-01 08:13:02 and read 34056 times.



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
To ground a 1000 aircraft on the strength of nothing more than lazy 'journalism' seems a bit extreme .

If this journalist was on an a330/a340 tomorrow they probably wouldnt even realise it

i had to laugh when i saw the first line of the article "Airbus is expected to face calls to ground its worldwide fleet of long-range airliners tomorrow"
so airbus has thier own airline now? a worldwide fleet of thier own? this journo has no idea

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2009-07-01 08:15:39 and read 33999 times.

Asking for the the grounding in this case is like blaming the "usual suspects" when a crime happens...

Wait!!!!
Who's asking for the planes to be grounded?

Quote:
Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6612165.ece

“EASA has a legal and moral obligation to get to the bottom of this problem now. If there is a defective system and the aircraft is unsafe then it should be grounded,” said James Healy-Pratt of Stewarts Law in London. The firm, which specialises in aviation, is representing the families of 20 of the victims of flight 447.

OK... a law firm is asking for the aircraft to be grounded...
If there's a defective system and the aircraft is unsafe...
What's unsafe?
OK, we have a few occurences (small proportion) of these things happening, and so far, only 1 crashed... which might not have been caused by the same defect... This law firm is jumping the gun.

Just because someone died around the same time Hannibal Lecter was walking around the neighborhood doesn't mean he did it...

Mandala499

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Solnabo
Posted 2009-07-01 08:21:11 and read 33851 times.

.

Why not ground all widebody´s with pitot tubes, or could it be that the journalist is a cheerleader for another manufacturer?

Jeeezuz

//Mike  Yeah sure

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2009-07-01 08:25:50 and read 33743 times.

The news article is based on what a Lawyer in London, U.K. is trying to do. This story turns out to be a bunch of conjecture and supposition. It stated right in the article that they had not found the black boxes yet and that there has been no causation established by official sources. If the Pitot tubes are at fault, Has there been any other crashes by the A330 directly cased by the information provided by these devices? The A310 that crashed of the Comoros coast was landing during a storm and is believed to be weather related, as was the A330 crash off Brazil. Maybe we should only fly in perfect weather.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Swallow
Posted 2009-07-01 08:26:07 and read 33707 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 7):
OK, we have a few occurences (small proportion) of these things happening, and so far, only 1 crashed.

And pitot tubes have already been replaced on some planes. Should those be grounded too?


 whiteflag 

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2009-07-01 08:31:42 and read 33612 times.



Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 1):
Its a news article about something that is not fact....

It is a fact, the article is not specific as to who is going to be doing the asking; or consequently, if they will be taken seriously, but there are people out there, some of whom will probably be at the hearing that are saying just that. That being said I think it would be highly unlikely that EASA would issue an order to ground the aircraft. Fundamentally, EASA has the legal right to suspend the TC for any model of Airbus aircraft.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 4):
Nevertheless it is being published in major newspapers like the Times and USAtoday.....having this in the press is almost worse that actually grounding the aircraft.

Not really, unless an airline is so short of cash that it cannot take a delay in ticket purchases for a day or two these stories should have little effect on revenue.

Let us do a thought experiment. Lets say that EASA is "convinced" that the only way to ensure safe operation is to suspend the TC for the A330/A340 class aircraft. Since most of the other TCs that have been issued were issued based upon the EASA/JAA TC they would also, most likely, be suspended. In the case of the FAA TC it would have to be suspended as the validation would no longer stand, as Airbus aircraft are not certified in the US but their certifications are validated. This would effectively lead to a world wide grounding.

Ok, as I said that is unlikely to happen. What we do know is that there were indications of a string of what were effectively AIRDU failures on the AF flight. These failures are similar to those that have occurred when the pitot tubes of other A330/A340s have become occluded. These occlusions are continuing to happen. The likelihood of this happening is mitigated by switching out the sensors to a different, but from a certification point of view, equivalent model. However, there are some internal issues with the failure modes of the AIRDUs that are concerning. As such I think that it is highly likely that ADs will be issued concerning the sensors, and procedures for handling failures (as Airbus has already issued notices and bulletins to that effect). It also seems likely that some form of Emergency AD will be issued, especially in the US. On the outside these ADs might call for the grounding until replacement of two of the three pitot tubes. This would only effect a portion (might be a large portion) of the fleet, and not the whole fleet.

Quoting JAL (Reply 3):
If it's true, this would create travel chaos all over the airline industry!

Yes it would, and EASA and other authorities will weigh this in any decision. Of course it is not like there is no precedent for an authority doing this, think about the FAA's suspension of the DC10 TC. At least with the DC10 there were a couple of fatal accidents in relatively short order (even though they were not directly related). As of yet there has only been one fatal accident of the A330.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Richierich
Posted 2009-07-01 08:31:49 and read 33611 times.

Did this come from the supermarket tabloids like News of the World or National Enquirer?

Anybody who seriously believes that there is a systemic problem with Airbus long-range aircraft because of the tragic events of the past month are, frankly, completely out of touch with reality or have no knowledge at all of the transportation industry. If Airbus should send a notice to all airlines to ground their Airbus long-haul aircraft (which wouldn't happen, of course), then shouldn't Boeing do the same to tell airlines to ground their Boeing short-haul fleet? There seem to have been a lot of B737 accidents over the past five years (sarcasm...)

The complete muddying of a manufacturer's reputation after an accident or string of (often unrelated) accidents is always mystifying to me. The media have a lot of power and, in the US at least, are generally protected by the Constitution. The general public seem incapable of making logical, well-informed decisions any moire. It is almost forgotten that until the tragic crash of AF447, the A330 had a perfect record in commercial service since its introduction some 15 years ago. The A340 and B777 have similarly excellent records - albeit a couple of close calls - but considering the number of these jets in operation today, on fleets all around the world, I personally think it is pretty amazing. Of course AF447 was a horrible tragedy and I am really hoping the causes can be pieced together - but to draw any conclusions solely because it was an Airbus twin-aisle is truly grasping at straws.

OK, so maybe changing the pitot tubes and speed sensors on the A330s and A340s was a prudent, if not necessary, step to make. It makes people feel better anyway, like something is being done. But for anybody to recommend grounding - based on one crash that may or may not have been the fault of the aircraft - is beyond ridiculous and does not deserve any further justification in my opinion.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Tharanga
Posted 2009-07-01 08:36:58 and read 33473 times.

The whole basis for the headline is a hypothetical statement from a lawyer?

HUGE gap here between the headline and reality.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Offloaded
Posted 2009-07-01 08:38:58 and read 33428 times.

There weren't 20 British victims so I don't get why a London firm is representing 20 families. If this does end up in court wouldn't it be in France / Brazil? Maybe the lawyers think AF/Airbus will dig deeper into their pockets by making such statements to the media. I'm sure there is some strategy behind this even if one's initial reaction is "what a bunch of *****"

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2009-07-01 08:42:12 and read 33336 times.



Quoting Offloaded (Reply 14):
There weren't 20 British victims so I don't get why a London firm is representing 20 families.

Parts of the aircraft were designed and made in the UK. There will also be US lawsuits, if for no other reason than the CF6-80E TC is held by GE, though the engine is assembled by Snecma.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Rikkus67
Posted 2009-07-01 08:44:55 and read 33300 times.

Lets not forget the capability of the A330 during fuel starvation (Air Transat). Obviously pilot skills play the primary role in flying on of the worlds largest gliders (remember also the Air Canada 767 gimli glider).

Seems to me that in both cases, the entire fleet of both aircraft should have been grounded due to the loss / lack of fuel....

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Richierich
Posted 2009-07-01 08:50:00 and read 33206 times.



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 16):
Seems to me that in both cases, the entire fleet of both aircraft should have been grounded due to the loss / lack of fuel....

HAHAHA! Good point! That would have made flying much much safer!

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: GBan
Posted 2009-07-01 08:56:11 and read 32915 times.

The same article came up in the AF accident thread, where I posted this:

Just did a quick search for Bremner (the author of the article) and found this (dating June 2nd):

Like any clever dick, er word hack, Bremner could fool you with his journalistic jingoisms -- seemingly factual but after a closer scrutiny, i.e., if you read between the lines, his "reporting" is often peppered with double entrendre, i.e., half malicious insinuations, which he plays to the hilt for the benefit of his adoring regular commenters (blogger here exempted).

In fact, Bremner will report -- and I suspect quite gleefully -- on anything that would attract the hungry pack of anti-French wolverines just like when he published a full-length article based on a piece by British smutty tabloid Daily Mail. And on the basis of that unverified report, Bremner opines...


http://hillblogger3.blogspot.com/200...shing-charles-bremners-jab-at.html

I have no idea how credible "Franco-Anglo bloggers" is as a source. But it certainly shows that Bremner is not an unknown...

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Starrion
Posted 2009-07-01 08:58:38 and read 32825 times.

Wow- That's some weapons-grade stupid in that article.

I'm always amazed that lawyers think that they have such a grasp on technologies that they can make a statement like that with a straight face. Stunning.

Ground all Airbus widebodies? For one crash that has very little actual data to go on? SURE!

Can you imagine the havoc this would cause?

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Manfredj
Posted 2009-07-01 09:07:10 and read 32510 times.

I would be completely convinced this was an isolated incident if there weren't other
complaints of erroneous readings in other aircraft. If indeed this is true, some kind of action does need to be taken. The proposed one, of course, is ridiculous.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 7):
OK, we have a few occurrences (small proportion) of these things happening, and so far, only 1 crashed... which might not have been caused by the same defect... This law firm is jumping the gun.

The way you have worded this screams investigation in a lawyers mind.

But let's just ask the question: Would we have the same reaction to the 737 rudder problems years back? Would we have "jumped the gun" concluding that this is just journalism gone mad? It ended up being a serious issue. One which was handled correctly in my opinion.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Jetfuel
Posted 2009-07-01 09:07:46 and read 32503 times.

Related article here. But yes the call for grounding is all and only from the lawyers (looking for support for their case)

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...ash-interim-statement-tomorrow.htm

French authorities will tomorrow [2 July 2009] give an interim statement on their investigation into the loss of an Air France Airbus off Brazil on 1 June 2009.
They are expected to report that unreliable and conflicting speed data from the onboard electronics were important factors in the accident, which killed 228 people.
The statement will be issued by the Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses, the French accident investigation agency.

James Healy-Pratt of Stewarts Law in London, which represents the families of 20 of the victims of flight 447, said: "EASA has a legal and moral obligation to get to the bottom of this problem now. If there is a defective system and the aircraft is unsafe then it should be grounded".

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Rampart
Posted 2009-07-01 09:31:13 and read 31578 times.

All of you are right, of course. But, public opinion is snowballing, aided in part by the press, blogs, and discussion forums. Radio news this morning said that a Yemenia flight out of CDG was forced to cancel due to a public demonstration at the airport. It's spreading. Regulators and politicians are going to want to address the public concerns, and it may mean asking Airbus to alay the concerns. If it takes uncommon measures to do that, I would not be surprised. It may not stop with Airbus, either, if a more general concern is supposed.

-Rampart

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-07-01 10:03:05 and read 30400 times.



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
Nobody knows what caused this crash despite everything being spouted as 'fact' here and in the media .

Actually, we all know what caused the crash. What we don't know is why a pilot would fly the airplane right through weather the plane is clearly not capable of flying through.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Baroque
Posted 2009-07-01 10:03:41 and read 30393 times.



Quoting Rampart (Reply 22):
It may not stop with Airbus, either, if a more general concern is supposed.

Isn't that a fact too!! Especially with experimental evidence that a high proportion of folk getting off a long distance flight have no idea if the plane has two, three or four engines! How would they know the difference between types or manufacturers.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Ken777
Posted 2009-07-01 10:08:34 and read 30185 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 7):
OK... a law firm is asking for the aircraft to be grounded...

The law firm is positioning itself. If Airbus fails to ground then they will take the position of the greedy, heartless super rich corporation that turned away from their responsibility. If they do ground the planes the law firm will say it proves Airbus made defective planes that killed their poor clients mommy & daddy.

And there will be few jury members that are knowledgeable about aviation.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 7):
This law firm is jumping the gun.

The law firm is is the one with the gun right now. Airbus is working to dodge the bullets while working on what caused the crash and what needs to be done to correct problems.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2009-07-01 10:09:05 and read 31063 times.

From the same site:

http://timescorrespondents.typepad.c...d-facts-over-airbus-disasters.html

I offer no critique of this link other to say that I was able to read part of it and it seemed fairly factual to me, but I'm not the expert many of you guys are.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-07-01 10:10:50 and read 31063 times.

Title article:

Airbus could be asked to ground all long-range airliners

Title on a.net:

Quoting Yellowtail (Thread starter):
Airbus To Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets

A subtle difference..

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: HBJZA
Posted 2009-07-01 10:11:04 and read 31158 times.

I just did a quick search and found the following :

252 people died on A330 since it entered service in 1992.
850 people died on B767 since it entered service in 1982.

I chose the 767 because it's the direct competitor of the 330.

What are they waiting for to ground all 767, following the logic of this london lawyer !!!

I know that I didn't do a complete search as how many flights for one type versus another but just some rough datas......

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Nycbjr
Posted 2009-07-01 10:21:02 and read 30659 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):

 checkmark 

Couldn't agree more. Can we at a.net agree to not try and sensationalize our posts?

Apologies if it was an unintentional mistake but I think we can agree that we should be more careful in our postings.

Cheers
 wave 

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Racko
Posted 2009-07-01 10:36:23 and read 30014 times.

The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch...I'm sure the "Sun" will chime in too.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: 4EVERVARIG
Posted 2009-07-01 10:50:28 and read 29493 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 7):
Just because someone died around the same time Hannibal Lecter was walking around the neighborhood doesn't mean he did it...

It gives a whole new meaning to the theory of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty..." doesn't it?

Blaming the recent incidents on Airbus itself is not proper or fair. Hasn't Airbus issued directives to replace certain troublesome parts found in some models? Why should Airbus be blamed when airlines do not follow through and maintain their aircrafts properly as directed by the manufacturer?

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Tharanga
Posted 2009-07-01 10:53:57 and read 29374 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23):
Actually, we all know what caused the crash.

We do?

News to me; I was sitting here waiting for the investigation to conclude.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Tharanga
Posted 2009-07-01 10:58:27 and read 29146 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
Title article:

Airbus could be asked to ground all long-range airliners

Title on a.net:

A subtle difference..

A very good point. The a.net title does not accurately reflect the headline, compounding the problem that the headline does not accurately reflect the article's content.

If we will criticize the press for careless wording, we should also be careful.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Rampart
Posted 2009-07-01 11:13:17 and read 28658 times.



Quoting HBJZA (Reply 28):

I just did a quick search and found the following :

252 people died on A330 since it entered service in 1992.
850 people died on B767 since it entered service in 1982.

I chose the 767 because it's the direct competitor of the 330.

What are they waiting for to ground all 767, following the logic of this london lawyer !!!

I know that I didn't do a complete search as how many flights for one type versus another but just some rough datas......

I assume coincidence, there have been a couple sets of non-terrorism rapid succession accidents of Boeing widebody aircraft, they all happen to involve 747s, while, again out of coincidence, there have been a couple cases of Airbus widebody aircraft accidents in rapid succession. Unrelated as they may be, current event memory tends to string these together.

But why does there need to be a comparison (over different time spans at that)? The calls for grounding are illogical on their own. But, previous spates of accidents from a single type have also brought demands for grounding: DC-10, 737, Dash-8. Airbus hasn't been the only one to suffer.

-Rampart

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: CFBFrame
Posted 2009-07-01 11:15:22 and read 28599 times.

Richierich Reply 12 -Anybody who seriously believes that there is a systemic problem with Airbus long-range aircraft because of the tragic events of the past month are, frankly, completely out of touch with reality or have no knowledge at all of the transportation industry.

On what planet are you from? If the pitot tubes are defective and they are installed on all A330/340 produced during s specific time, would mean there is a systemic problem with those a/c. Would you not think that to be the case here? If EASA thinks the a/c should be grounded until verification and validation are done, it shall be so.

Phollingworth Reply 15- CF6-80E

The engines are manufactured by GE in Durham, North Carolina. cfm56 are from the JV.

Manfredj Reply 20-

Once again another impressive posting. I wish others could/would appreciate your comments.

CalebWilliams Reply 26- offer no critique of this link other to say that I was able to read part of it and it seemed fairly factual to me, but I'm not the expert many of you guys are.

Thanks for the link. If people read the bio of the author they might find that he is French and he does ask people to calm down in this version of the article.

If there is something wrong with the A330/340s and they need to be grounded, they should be grounded. I expect the TC governing bodies to do their job because 1 death is simply too many. This is not an Airbus versus Boeing issue, it is a safety issue. Please stick to the current situation and don't let your A vs B issue bleed over into this. In the end you marginalize your posting when you talk of it being a reason for not grounding an a/c.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Silentbob
Posted 2009-07-01 11:21:34 and read 28347 times.



Quoting Solnabo (Reply 8):
Why not ground all widebody´s with pitot tubes, or could it be that the journalist is a cheerleader for another manufacturer?

Let's just be safe and ground everything with a pitot tube until a new system for measuring airspeed can be created. Just in the interest of safety.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Bravo1six
Posted 2009-07-01 11:34:20 and read 27978 times.



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
The law firm is positioning itself. If Airbus fails to ground then they will take the position of the greedy, heartless super rich corporation that turned away from their responsibility. If they do ground the planes the law firm will say it proves Airbus made defective planes that killed their poor clients mommy & daddy.

And there will be few jury members that are knowledgeable about aviation.

We have a winner!!!!

Within two or three days of the Colgan Q400 going down in Buffalo there was at least one law firm demanding that all Q400s be grounded since they had a "design flaw" and are unsafe to fly in icing conditions. Those lawyers had obviously already concluded that (a) icing caused the crash and (b) the aircraft itself was flawed. The investigation so far suggests that not only did icing not play a role but also that the aircraft itself is just fine. Oddly enough, the lawyers in question haven't retracted their statements.....

Lawyers (and I say this as one myself) are supposed to abide by certain ethical standards, one of which (in Canada at least) is that a lawyer is not supposed to make public statements which may have the effect of "tainting" the judicial process. As technical matter, that rule only applies in respect of matters that are currently before the court....suffice it to say that some lawyers are satisfied to read the rules as they exist in black and white only and don't care much for honouring the spirit of the rules.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-07-01 11:50:49 and read 27352 times.



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 32):
We do?
News to me; I was sitting here waiting for the investigation to conclude.

You must have not been paying too much attention then. You are right however that the investigation may determine the events that led to the crash. We already know that there was and incredibly powerful storm in that area and Airbus themselves already said that the plane would not survive flying through a storm of that magnitude. It's like throwing a porcelain plate into the washing machine and ask why it broke. We know why it broke, but why was it there in the first place?  Smile

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2009-07-01 12:04:46 and read 26904 times.



Quoting Yellowtail (Thread starter):
Airbus To Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets

I don't think Airbus really has the authority to do that. I think that is the respective government's authority, for example, here in the U.S. the FAA has the authority to ground aircraft.

Then again, I wonder what the FAA's take is on this....

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: GDB
Posted 2009-07-01 12:05:47 and read 26928 times.

Some may think The Times being a famous old paper, is more reputable.
Sadly, for many years it's been owned by Rupert Murdoch, who the media savvy will know makes all the difference.

Also, the age of jnornalists with specilaist knowledge of aviation (and often transport in general), is nealy gone.
Most of them merely cut and paste from wikipedia, search some forums and blogs, then bend what they find around the predetermined 'story' they had in mind from the start.

If you work in the industry, especially in technical areas, you'll know that a balanced, knowlegeable report in even non tabloids and just about all TV news reports, is as rare as rockinghorse shit.

When I was in BA Concorde Engineering, we had in my time a Times hack who reckoned he'd seen a 'part' fall off a departing Concorde.
In fact, a small part had fallen off a BA 757, oh well, easy mistake to make!

Take ALL reports from the non specialist press with a large grain of salt, unless of course it fits a point of view?

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2009-07-01 12:07:27 and read 26889 times.

They should ground 747s because a bomb blew one up, and 2 of them collided into each other which was the 2nd worse loss of life in civil aviation, oh yeah, a 747 got shot down by a MiG! 747s are unsafe!  Embarrassment

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: ODwyerPW
Posted 2009-07-01 12:17:06 and read 26499 times.

this is irresponsible sensationalism. can't even believe the original poster cited it.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: GDB
Posted 2009-07-01 12:17:29 and read 26521 times.

Word of advice to those sourcing from mainstream media, if it is a potential major news story, which if true this would be, why not first check out reputable sites such as flightglobal and aviation week first, before posting?

I just did, the fact that this 'story' is not as far as I can see, on either of these sites, should tell you something.
Shouldn't it?

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: GlobeEx
Posted 2009-07-01 13:01:32 and read 25286 times.

In all honesty, I don't see why all of you do have a problem with the sentence: "Airbus To Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets". Just in fact, there was an old lady sitting in the metro next to me today, who was talking to a friend, and she demanded the same!!!

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23):

Actually, we all know what caused the crash. What we don't know is why a pilot would fly the airplane right through weather the plane is clearly not capable of flying through.

Well, I guess you should pass your number on to the NTSB so that they can give you a call.

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 35):
On what planet are you from? If the pitot tubes are defective and they are installed on all A330/340 produced during s specific time,

Well, if you mean, that all Airbus are equipped with pitot tubes, well yes, they should be grounded, and Boeings and Bombarier etc. etc. if you mean this specific type of pitot tube.... no not all A330/A340 are equipped with thoses specific tubes. There are other manufactures as options.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 36):
Let's just be safe and ground everything with a pitot tube until a new system for measuring airspeed can be created.

Well, that would be my advice as well  Wink!!!!


What I just want to note, in general concering AF447 and the aftermath. It is somehow ironic that every body is talking about grounding all A330/A340 whereas all systems in question (the pitot tubes and ADIRU) are not manufatcured by Airbus. Those manufactures obviously do not only supply Airbus with their products.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: GlenP
Posted 2009-07-01 13:15:02 and read 24823 times.

Strikes me as being another case of an ambulance chaser, who knows nothing about that of which he speaks, being out to maximise the payout; & hence his own fee, combined with increasingly poor standards in journalism.

Let's all just await the preliminary report, tomorrow, eh?

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Viscount630
Posted 2009-07-01 13:18:37 and read 24691 times.

Complete and utter ignorant journalist twaddle!

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2009-07-01 13:20:05 and read 24705 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23):
Actually, we all know what caused the crash. What we don't know is why a pilot would fly the airplane right through weather the plane is clearly not capable of flying through.

And what caused the crash? Please enlighten us...
So, how BAD was the weather they flew through? I guess you missed the comments that the weather was nothing out of the ordinary.

Quoting 4EVERVARIG (Reply 31):
Hasn't Airbus issued directives to replace certain troublesome parts found in some models? Why should Airbus be blamed when airlines do not follow through and maintain their aircrafts properly as directed by the manufacturer?

Airbus tends to be quick in issuing recommendation and reminders when an accident happen. They also tend to dish out information quickly when the likely causes are found... they've been slow this time it seems... now that's either because they're still working at it, or the alternative favourite.... co-ver-up... *pukes*

Quoting Bravo1six (Reply 37):
Oddly enough, the lawyers in question haven't retracted their statements.....

They got a law for themselves... J/K.

Quoting GDB (Reply 40):
Sadly, for many years it's been owned by Rupert Murdoch, who the media savvy will know makes all the difference.

You are hereby served notice of a libel suit.... LOL...

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: CFBFrame
Posted 2009-07-01 14:03:04 and read 23477 times.

The writer of the article from the Times had to be an ignorant bum because he comes from a Murdock company? I hope many of you don't take yourselves too seriously because much of what's here is flaming a fire that really should not have been lit.

First I read Mr Brenner is a sensationalist and he tends to be slanted. He has connections to the lawyer/s, and he has an ax to grind with Airbus. And, because he writes for the Times there's no way he has any aerospace background. A.netters should never trust anything that's not on Flightglobal or the other (trusted) aerospace sites because they are the only ones who are all knowing and all seeing. The attacks on the author must be for reasons that I don't know, but I'm finding many of you to be worse than you think Mr Brenner is because you too have failed to investigate.

I simply followed the link left by CalebWIlliams in Reply 26 and I learned some very interesting information. Mr Brenner is French, he has worked across the continent, and he has a PRIVATE PILOT'S LICENSE!!!!!!!. Check out the comments and the feedback he has provided to other misinformed posters to his article.

GlobeEx Reply 44- I said a specific group of A330/340 produced during a certain period of time, so no not all A330/340 produced but only those produced with the defective pitot tubes. Good point about other airframers who also purchased pitot tubes from the supplier during that same period, should also be checked.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: 7gm7
Posted 2009-07-01 14:10:19 and read 23208 times.



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 4):
Nevertheless it is being published in major newspapers like the Times and USAtoday.....having this in the press is almost worse that actually grounding the aircraft.

Agree. The media, regardless how credible they are, is creating a mainstream buzz connecting danger and A330/Airbus in general. It's catching on and spreading like wild fire.

I can hear it in chatter in my office buillding among business travelers who know nothing about airplanes; ordinary folks who are certainly no avaiation enthusiasts as most of us here are.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: M11Stephen
Posted 2009-07-01 14:15:40 and read 23084 times.

I can understand why people are concerned over the safety of wide body Airbus' when two of them have just crashed in somewhat similar conditions in a short period of time. The A320 crash back in January is completely irrelevant cause that could have happened to any plane or any airline. But we may find out that these two accidents were linked and grounding wide body Airbus' doesn't sound like the worst idea given how 400 people just died on them in the past couple weeks until we find a definite solution to fix the problem.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: GlobeEx
Posted 2009-07-01 14:27:42 and read 22704 times.



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 50):
But we may find out that these two accidents were linked and grounding wide body Airbus' doesn't sound like the worst idea given how 400 people just died on them in the past couple weeks until we find a definite solution to fix the problem.

Well to be honest. linking those two incidence is just, well...... you know. Both aircrafts, the A310 and A330 share the fuselage... That's about it... Hell, the A310 isn't even full FBW.

GlobeEx

@CFBFrame: you have a PM =)

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Yellowtail
Posted 2009-07-01 14:47:40 and read 22080 times.



Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 42):
this is irresponsible sensationalism. can't even believe the original poster cited it.

Why? it is a fair topic to discuss...it is only appearing in MAJOR newspapers. I simply posted it out of interest for you all. This is a forum after all, not an editing and censorship room.

Topic: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2009-07-01 14:52:08 and read 21933 times.

This law firm is doing some pretty dispicable tactics to win some extra money.

These planes have proven they are safe. If this sort of detail were enough to recall products, every 737NG would have been grounded during the rudder issues.

I consider this horrid journalism to even publish this hack's opinion. For that is all it is. Why is it ok for a lawyer to commit libel if its in his client's interest? Seriously, this comment is from an individual who knows nothing about aircraft quality control and/or crash investigation. Grrrr...

Quoting Tharanga (Reply 13):
HUGE gap here between the headline and reality.

Checkmark.

Oh, I won't be returning to this thread. As far as I'm concerned, this is just A vs. B on a worse scale.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Smf757
Posted 2009-07-01 17:40:43 and read 19006 times.



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 44):
What I just want to note, in general concering AF447 and the aftermath. It is somehow ironic that every body is talking about grounding all A330/A340 whereas all systems in question (the pitot tubes and ADIRU) are not manufatcured by Airbus. Those manufactures obviously do not only supply Airbus with their products.

I guess I'm wondering why the pitot tube would be a cause for concern - seems to me to be a simple device - other than it clogging because of ice or i guess lots of condensation - what would be other reasons to start replacing them? Manufacturing issues? Anybody know why Airbus recommended replacing them?

To me - I question the software and how it reacts to different readings. True that the ADIRU may be used in different aircraft, but wouldn't it be configured differently for the type of aircraft it’s installed? It will be interesting to see what the NTSB determines in the recent TAM and Northwest incidents. Maybe there's something in the countless lines of computer code that could be causing issues - I work in software and I see it all the time. You make a change here in an update and opps - something over there isn't right…

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: 474218
Posted 2009-07-01 19:02:04 and read 17789 times.



Quoting Swallow (Reply 2):
Airbus issued an advisory. It does not ground planes; airlines do

Grounding would be done by the regulatory agency that issued the type certificate.

Quoting Yellowtail (Thread starter):
I doubt this will ever happen

I am sure McDonnell Douglas said the same thing?

Quoting Starrion (Reply 19):
Ground all Airbus widebodies? For one crash that has very little actual data to go on? SURE!

Can you imagine the havoc this would cause?

No more than grounding the DC-10's caused.

Quoting 7gm7 (Reply 49):
Agree. The media, regardless how credible they are, is creating a mainstream buzz connecting danger and A330/Airbus in general. It's catching on and spreading like wild fire.

I can hear it in chatter in my office buillding among business travelers who know nothing about airplanes; ordinary folks who are certainly no avaiation enthusiasts as most of us here are.

Exactly the same thing happen with the DC-10's. One operator caused the problem but the flying public demanded they all be grounded until they were inspected and or fixed.

Additionally, they are heated and with anything electrical the can burn out, requiring replacement.

Quoting Smf757 (Reply 54):
I guess I'm wondering why the pitot tube would be a cause for concern - seems to me to be a simple device - other than it clogging because of ice or i guess lots of condensation - what would be other reasons to start replacing them? Manufacturing issues? Anybody know why Airbus recommended replacing them?

The pitot tube is a piece of precision equipment. It has openings that are held to a tolorance of 0.0001 of an inch. Erosion caused by it moving through the air, the heating elements failing, it being bent or damaged on the ground are all causes for replacement. Even the skin of the aircraft around the pitot tubes can not be damaged, as it will cause the reading to fluctuate.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: PGNCS
Posted 2009-07-01 19:24:51 and read 17376 times.



Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 48):
Mr Brenner is French, he has worked across the continent, and he has a PRIVATE PILOT'S LICENSE!!!!!!!.

Yes, and? He's a French guy who has flown little planes. So what?

Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 50):
But we may find out that these two accidents were linked and grounding wide body Airbus' doesn't sound like the worst idea given how 400 people just died on them in the past couple weeks until we find a definite solution to fix the problem.

Well then connect them for us. What caused them? Why weren't 737's grounded when there was a suspected and later confirmed rudder problem? Why was the 73NG not grounded after the accident in AMS until a cause was known and a definite fix was implemented?

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 53):
I won't be returning to this thread. As far as I'm concerned, this is just A vs. B on a worse scale.

Huge  checkmark 

Quoting 474218 (Reply 55):
Grounding would be done by the regulatory agency that issued the type certificate.

 checkmark 

Quoting 474218 (Reply 55):
No more than grounding the DC-10's caused.

Actually that's not strictly true as there many more Airbus widebodies flying than there were DC-10's ever.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 55):
Exactly the same thing happen with the DC-10's. One operator caused the problem but the flying public demanded they all be grounded until they were inspected and or fixed.

And in that case the problem was identified, as was the solution. Here it is not, and until the AF accident tehe A-330 had had a record of zero fatalities in commercial operation with a very large oparator base.

Pointless sensationalism. Nothing to see here; lawyer full of hot air. Show's over, move along now.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Par13del
Posted 2009-07-01 19:36:38 and read 17106 times.



Quoting Richierich (Reply 12):
It is almost forgotten that until the tragic crash of AF447, the A330 had a perfect record in commercial service since its introduction some 15 years ago.



Quoting Richierich (Reply 12):
OK, so maybe changing the pitot tubes and speed sensors on the A330s and A340s was a prudent, if not necessary, step to make



Quoting 474218 (Reply 55):
The pitot tube is a piece of precision equipment. It has openings that are held to a tolorance of 0.0001 of an inch. Erosion caused by it moving through the air, the heating elements failing, it being bent or damaged on the ground are all causes for replacement. Even the skin of the aircraft around the pitot tubes can not be damaged, as it will cause the reading to fluctuate.

Unfortunately, when sensational journalism takes over discussions become difficult. Playing devils advocate here, one could also say that the A330 / A340 pitot tube issue was an accident waiting to happen. It now appears as if the faulty tubes were known about for a while but was not regarded as being too serious since redundancies are built in, what I find interesting is the actions performed by the computers once air speed data is lost. Lawyers will take cases to court and both sides will bring in their experts, what is always against the airline industry is the number of "faults" which an a/c can have and still be certified to fly, to the layman in the street this is sometimes troubling.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: GBan
Posted 2009-07-01 20:55:01 and read 15919 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 38):
We already know that there was and incredibly powerful storm in that area and Airbus themselves already said that the plane would not survive flying through a storm of that magnitude



Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 48):
Mr Brenner is French, he has worked across the continent, and he has a PRIVATE PILOT'S LICENSE!!!!!!!.

Isn't it time to start a competition "post of the month"?

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Peterinlisbon
Posted 2009-07-01 21:00:24 and read 15823 times.

They should ban these pitot tube things with all the accidents they cause!

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Peterinlisbon
Posted 2009-07-01 21:02:54 and read 15812 times.

I also ask what type of plane they are putting me on, but from now on I will also ask whether it has a pitot tube and if it does, I will not fly!

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: FuturePilot16
Posted 2009-07-01 21:31:51 and read 15393 times.

This is starting to become a major problem. I doubt Airbus will ever have to ground all long range jets, but in time, I think the problems with pitot tubes will be addressed. s for now, people are panicking like crazy, just reading some of the comments below the article, people are asking airlines not to book them on airbus equipment and so on. I don't think this article has any truth behind it, especially since it doesn't offer any sources, but the general public who is already weary of flying, don't know that. Once again, kudos to the media for continuing to increase public fear.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: FuturePilot16
Posted 2009-07-01 21:39:17 and read 15272 times.



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 16):
Lets not forget the capability of the A330 during fuel starvation (Air Transat). Obviously pilot skills play the primary role in flying on of the worlds largest gliders (remember also the Air Canada 767 gimli glider).

I could have sworn that air transat was an a310?

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Danfearn77
Posted 2009-07-01 22:06:34 and read 14899 times.



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 66):

Your thinking of another Air Transat incident. The fuel starvation was indeed on an A330. The A310 incident your thinking of was the rrudder detached during flight. I have to admit i thought it was the other way round!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_961


As for this topic, its utter ridiculous. It is just money grabbing lawyers who will do anything. This, coupled with the media, create fear and panic. Reading some of those comments from the article:

Quote:
"On 30 December 2009, I am flying Air New Zealand from Sydney to Auckland aboard an Airbus A330. I requested, twice, that ANZ place me on a different flight with Boeing Equipment."

That comment has come purely through the media stirring it up. Maybe they should get their facts right first. Obviously ANZ dont have A330's but its still put this guy in a panic.


This comment made me laugh:

Quote:
"I was in the airline industry for 30 years as a flight attendant, when the Airbus A320 came online, most of our pilots were very very leary of the fly by wire and composite, it often had a "mind of its own" and did not respond to commands by pilots. I always knew it was a matter of time."

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2009-07-01 22:15:19 and read 14784 times.



Quoting Smf757 (Reply 54):
Maybe there's something in the countless lines of computer code that could be causing issues - I work in software and I see it all the time. You make a change here in an update and opps - something over there isn't right…

That's certainly possible, but unless you work with flight-critical aviation software, it's difficult to explain the difference to people between that and normal commercial software. It's, roughly, like the difference between your digital watch and the space shuttle.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BrouAviation
Posted 2009-07-01 23:06:47 and read 14117 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 7):
OK, we have a few occurences (small proportion) of these things happening, and so far, only 1 crashed...

Yeah, indeed only 1. And only 228 people died..  Sad

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 11):
As of yet there has only been one fatal accident of the A330.

Oh, since when do only fatal accidents count?

Quoting Richierich (Reply 12):
Anybody who seriously believes that there is a systemic problem with Airbus long-range aircraft because of the tragic events of the past month are, frankly, completely out of touch with reality or have no knowledge at all of the transportation industry.

I hope you are right, but the same was said when thos 737 guppies came down one after another. Which later appeared to be a systematic problem with the rudder mechanism.. You simply can't say..

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 23):

Actually, we all know what caused the crash. What we don't know is why a pilot would fly the airplane right through weather the plane is clearly not capable of flying through.

It might indeed have something to do with the weather, but what actually made the aircraft disintegrate? Going to fast, because of faulty pitots? Or stalling and spinning for the same reason? Or just the extremely heavy turbulence that might have occurred?

Quoting Rampart (Reply 34):
But, previous spates of accidents from a single type have also brought demands for grounding: DC-10, 737, Dash-8. Airbus hasn't been the only one to suffer.

True, and in all accidents the pro's and the builders of the aircraft believed it was NOT structural, only bad luck..


And if there is a structural problem, that doesn't mean aircraft have to be grounded, isn't it? Only some additions to the manuals could do until the problems are solved?

Another example: Are the faulty RAD ALT indicators on the 737 structural, or just bad luck? Such a problem couldn't bring an aircraft down, only when a pilot performs an autoland and has a nice chat with his collegue, without watching the airspeed dropping 50kts below desired, as that is what most likely happened on the TK 737 at AMS. It's all about informing and training the flightcrew in this cases instead of grounding aircraft..

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2009-07-01 23:28:30 and read 13836 times.



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 11):
As of yet there has only been one fatal accident of the A330.

Well to get technical there have been 2.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...®=F-WWKH&airline=Airbus+Industrie

But that was not passenger service, it was a test by Airbus

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Jetfuel
Posted 2009-07-01 23:52:11 and read 13529 times.

Its now JULY 2. Where's the announcemnet?

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Jpax
Posted 2009-07-01 23:59:53 and read 13463 times.



Quoting Peterinlisbon (Reply 61):
They should ban these pitot tube things with all the accidents they cause!



Quoting Peterinlisbon (Reply 62):
I also ask what type of plane they are putting me on, but from now on I will also ask whether it has a pitot tube and if it does, I will not fly!

Not sure if this is sarcasm, but if it is not... oh boy, oh boy.  no 

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Flood
Posted 2009-07-02 00:04:06 and read 13372 times.



Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 71):
Its now JULY 2. Where's the announcemnet?

If I'm not mistaken there's a BEA press conference 1300 GMT.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Danfearn77
Posted 2009-07-02 00:16:52 and read 13209 times.



Quoting Jpax (Reply 72):

Im pretty confident its sarcasm!

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2009-07-02 03:49:05 and read 10868 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 75):
AA DC-10 = The cause was loss of #1 engine & engine mounting, resulting in loss of hydraulics and slat retraction on one of the wings resulting in excess lift asymmetry, rendering the aircraft uncontrollable.
Facts:
- The cause if repeated on other DC-10s at the same flight phase will result in loss of aircraft. -> Grounding justified.
- Grounding was pending finding the cause of the engine separation.
- This was a case where no matter how well you train the pilot, the aircraft would not survive. -> Grounding justified
- Once it was found that the cause is traced back to unapproved engine change methods, grounding lifted.

Not strictly true. There was no indication that the pylon separation was a systemic problem. Furthermore, the departure was not caused solely by the asymmetric configuration. The lead to a change in stall speed between the two wings. An asymmetric configuration alone was actually well within the control envelope of the aircraft. The compounding problem was that there was no asymmetry warning and that the procedure for an engine out return have a V that was based upon the slat deployed speed. A simple revision of the procedure to include a higher speed would have solved the problem. It would have required a change in the second segment calculations and, as such a change in the BFL but it would have been a quick fix. The FAAs reaction was to assume that their was a systemic problem before they determined there was. This was a reaction to the public opinion after a rash of other DC10 accidents and incidents world-wide. Similar is true with the 737 hard over incidents, where a slight increase in approach speed at certain flap settings combined with training would prevent an accident. That coupled with the inspection program and a redesign of the PDU have basically eliminated the problem.

In the case of the A330 there is evidence of a systemic issue (albeit correctable by modification) and evidence that this played a role in the loss of an aircraft. I am not advocating a blanket grounding, or even a grounding of un-modified aircraft. I am just pointing out that planes have been grounded for similar reasons before.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 75):
Spot On... There's a huge difference between the problem of AF447's pitot tubes/ADIRUs/whathaveyou and cases like the AA DC-10, and the 737 Rudder hardover.

Not really, see above. There is an issue with the way that the ADIRUs fail with loss of information, the effective redundancy is significantly lower than the what was predicted for use in the design approval. Does this mean that the A/C should be grounded, not at all. What it means is that other steps should be taken to mitigate this issue, and that in the long-term a rework of the ADIRU configuration may be appropriate. Again this would be best covered by and AD.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 39):
I don't think Airbus really has the authority to do that. I think that is the respective government's authority, for example, here in the U.S. the FAA has the authority to ground aircraft.

Airbus have this authority, albeit indirectly. Airbus can request a suspension of the TC for the aircraft, since Airbus owns the TC and has responsibility to ensure that the data they have supplied is correct it would basically force EASA to withdraw or suspend the TC. This would cause the cascade I described above and would force grounding. Not that I think Airbus would ever do this. Manufacturers request the withdraw of TCs all the time. The GE90-92B TC was withdrawn by GE, because it made no sense for them to maintain and support an engine that did not exist in the fleet of any operator (the BOM had been supplanted by the -94B and all operators had either upgraded the engines or chosen to use the -90B rating instead).

Suspensions of TCs were much more common in the early days of aviation, not because there were all of these evil design flaws, but more because the consequences of suspension were some much less painful economically, i.e. the benefits of continued flight were much closer to the costs of another loss. The DC10 suspension changed the FAA's outlook, it was much more expensive and damaging that the previous ones, e.g. 727. The FAA has shied away from broad TC suspensions for commercial transports since that time.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range
Username: Gisors
Posted 2009-07-02 06:08:31 and read 9114 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
Title article:

Airbus could be asked to ground all long-range airliners

Title on a.net:

Quoting Yellowtail (Thread starter):
Airbus To Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets

A subtle difference..

Now, on the not-so-subtle side:

"All Airbus Planes May be Grounded: Report

The European airplane conglomerate Airbus has had a tough year so far with multiple catastrophic crashes associate with their planes. But things are about to get worse.

The European Aviation Safety Agency is expected to call for the Airbus to ground its entire fleet of long-range airliners."

From Philadelpia News
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...Planes-May-be-Grounded-Report.html

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 48):
Mr Brenner is French

He is not.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Jetfuel
Posted 2009-07-02 06:22:12 and read 8896 times.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5jvGINF07tXBNwqWtji7KKNoX4PiQ

"PARIS (AFP) — Airbus on Thursday denied a press report that it was considering grounding all long-haul A330 and A340 jets to change airspeed sensors after an Air France plane crashed into the Atlantic."

"The French newspaper Le Figaro said in its Thursday edition that the aircraft manufacturer "does not rule out grounding its fleet of 1,000 A330s and A340s to change the (speed) sensors."

An Airbus spokesman denied the report, telling AFP "This is wrong."

The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) "has issued a press release that all A330s and other aircraft are safe to operate," he said, adding: "We will take legal action against such irresponsible reporting."

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BrouAviation
Posted 2009-07-02 06:30:32 and read 8736 times.



Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 73):
"We will take legal action against such irresponsible reporting."

Which is very difficult, but the only right thing to do here.

Problem is, this media reports are mostly based on other media reports, which are based on blogs by aviation journalists, which are based on some BS shared on some aviation forums, which again are based on media reports. And in each step, things get exaggerated more. This ends up in a sort of climax, with media reporting complete BS.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Richierich
Posted 2009-07-02 06:31:15 and read 8748 times.



Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 35):
On what planet are you from? If the pitot tubes are defective and they are installed on all A330/340 produced during s specific time, would mean there is a systemic problem with those a/c. Would you not think that to be the case here? If EASA thinks the a/c should be grounded until verification and validation are done, it shall be so.

Actually, what planet are you from?? The Land of Make Believe??

As I said in my previous post, why on Earth (that's my planet) would you ground ALL Airbus long-haul aircraft because of relatively few problems with pitot tubes on a small number of aircraft over such a small number of flights? I was going to use the word ANY instead of ALL but I thought I would humor you.

The A330 has been flying successfully for years - what makes you think that all of a sudden now, in 2009, they are unsafe to fly? At worst, change the pitot tubes and sensors. Ground the fleet? You're out of your mind!

Do you not realize the ridiculousness of what this article represents? After 70-something posts and counting on this thread, if you don't get it I guess you never will....

Quoting Viscount630 (Reply 46):
Complete and utter ignorant journalist twaddle!

 checkmark 

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Jetfuel
Posted 2009-07-02 06:33:08 and read 8777 times.



Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 74):
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 73):
"We will take legal action against such irresponsible reporting."

Which is very difficult, but the only right thing to do here.

Problem is, this media reports are mostly based on other media reports, which are based on blogs by aviation journalists, which are based on some BS shared on some aviation forums, which again are based on media reports. And in each step, things get exaggerated more. This ends up in a sort of climax, with media reporting complete BS.

Totally agree. I see it everywhere, including posts here. We need to stick to facts and not mere heresay

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Kennyk
Posted 2009-07-02 06:40:20 and read 8597 times.

Yet another example of sxxm bag lawyers who will argue black is white and white is black and provide evidence and witnesses to prove it to get clients millions of $ etc and line their pockets at the same time.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BillReid
Posted 2009-07-02 07:49:41 and read 7608 times.

The amazing thing here is the impact on airlines.

Assuming that the A330/340/380 continue to fly many passengers are starting to say "if it aint Boeing, I aint goin." all based upon what is being stirred up.

I have read several blogs in the Netherlands and France and the sentiment is there is a growing belief whether right or wrong, that the AB computers are flawed.

Now the press is in the process of exasperating this greatly. Adding fuel to the fire. Not finding the AF Black Boxes will also add fuel to the fire. Imagine if there were some sort of other occurrance on ANY AB acft in the next 90-120 days. The result would be a mass frenzy from the public to stay away from the AB product! Many people are asking how France, Germany, Spain, Italy and the UK can construct anything together when these cultures cannot agree on the time of day and have been culturally at war for centuries. This is a pure question of communication and this question was in the foreground with the A380 delays a couple years back.

Maybe I need to start a sales campaign in Europe selling tee-shirts saying "If it aint Boeing, I ant goin" whether I believe it or not there may be money to be made. (only kidding)

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BWI5OH
Posted 2009-07-02 07:59:52 and read 7523 times.

After just reading all of the posts, it seems there is alot of questioning concerning the pitot tubes as a possible factor in at least 2 of the most recent crashes. I'm not that educated on pitot tubes, as I am not a pilot, mechanic or engineer. But don't narrow bodies use pretty much the same type of device? As does Boeing aircraft?

It would seem to me that some journalist can add "1 widebody + 1 widebody = An aircraft that should be grounded". These weren't even the same types of aircraft, as has been pointed out. If his mathematics were assumed to be correct, then ALL AIRCRAFT using pitot tubes should be grounded. ( I'm being sarcastic, of course.)

Airbus is in the business to make planes, advise of safety issues concerning those planes to operators and providing the corrective parts if neccessary. Airbus can not control which operators actually abide by those saftey bulletins, so, seemingly to me, Airbus did and is still doing their job of keeping the aircraft they built safe.

Although I don't post many replies, this is a forum where everyone has an OPINION of what happened. No one person can say for certain what the actual problem of any aircraft that crashed, until the Authorities are finished an official investigation. To that extent, I don't flame or lambaste anyone who shares their opinions...some are quite humorous, to say the least.

As has been pointed out before, blaming Airbus for equipment failures or unsafe aircraft is a get rich quick scheme that lawyers are frothing at the mouth over. I know what types of aircraft I'm getting on prior to purchasing a ticket, and if one of my travels happens to include an Airbus widebody, so be it. We live in a fast paced world that requires thousands of planes with millions of little mechanical parts to operate correctly. They can break or malfunction in flight, just as auto parts do when driving down the freeway. I'll continue to take my chances of getting on an aircraft with the belief that the manufacturers, be it Boeing or Airbus, and operators are doing everything they can to make it a safe trip. Gosh, I feel better now...  relieved 

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Racko
Posted 2009-07-02 08:00:35 and read 7519 times.

And then a Boeing crashes and we go back to rowboats.

And somehow I don't notice this mass movement refusing to fly on airbus aircraft. Nothing in the press here, not even in the tabloids.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BillReid
Posted 2009-07-02 08:11:51 and read 7466 times.



Quoting Racko (Reply 80):
And then a Boeing crashes and we go back to rowboats.

And somehow I don't notice this mass movement refusing to fly on airbus aircraft. Nothing in the press here, not even in the tabloids.

This is not about A vs B, this is about "Perception being Reality". If 2% of the travelling public change their booking habits based on a press report then we have a severe impact on airlines.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Wolbo
Posted 2009-07-02 08:36:00 and read 7321 times.



Quoting BillReid (Reply 78):
Assuming that the A330/340/380 continue to fly many passengers are starting to say "if it aint Boeing, I aint goin." all based upon what is being stirred up.

And you know this how? Where are these 'many passengers'? Did you read a report showing this or have you perhaps spoken personally to these 'many passengers'? You might want to consider who is doing the stirring here.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 78):

Imagine if there were some sort of other occurrance on ANY AB acft in the next 90-120 days. The result would be a mass frenzy from the public to stay away from the AB product!

That is pure speculation and does not warrant the certainty with which you make that statement. Apparently you see things that others don't but it doesn't seem to have any solid footing.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 78):

Many people are asking how France, Germany, Spain, Italy and the UK can construct anything together when these cultures cannot agree on the time of day and have been culturally at war for centuries.

Again these 'many people'. Are these the same as the 'many passengers' you mentioned above? Where are they? Do they even exist? Clearly they exist in your head but so far I don't see them anywhere else.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BrouAviation
Posted 2009-07-02 09:18:38 and read 7169 times.



Quoting Wolbo (Reply 82):
Clearly they exist in your head but so far I don't see them anywhere else.

You should have a look at the non-aviation related boards all around the world. Just look at the website of our own dutch Telegraaf. There you'll meet those people, saying they don't trust Airbus at all..

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range
Username: Swallow
Posted 2009-07-02 09:29:04 and read 7145 times.

And now this from Andrea James of the Seattle PI

Actor Ashton Kutcher cautioned his fans on Wednesday that a pilot recommended to him not to fly on Airbus until the manufacturer's composite tail is declared safe.

His exact words were: "A 30 year vetran pilot recommended 2 me that I dont ride on an airbus until they prove that the composite tail is not creating ths accidents."

He then adds that, "I'm not a big fear person I just felt it would be neglegent to not share."

Who the heck cares what a U.S. actor thinks? Clearly, we shouldn't make flying decisions based on his opinion. But the problem for Airbus is that Kutcher has has 2,546,626 "followers" on Twitter


http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/


  

Time for JL to work the press??

[Edited 2009-07-02 09:30:51]

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: GDB
Posted 2009-07-02 12:16:21 and read 6814 times.



Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 48):
The writer of the article from the Times had to be an ignorant bum because he comes from a Murdock company? I hope many of you don't take yourselves too seriously because much of what's here is flaming a fire that really should not have been lit.

I do take myself seriously on this since I've seen way too many examples of at best, lazy journalism, at worst deliberate distortion.
And The Times is a bad as any others, Murdoch owned or not.
Though he is famous as a major fan of 'dumbing down'.

My own employers threatened The Times with legal action a couple of years ago, after they made a bunch of allegations about the safety of our aircraft.
Since they shut up, clearly they knew they could not substantiate them.
I don't know how it works elsewhere, but papers over here tend to fight cases where they think they have a bona fide story and can back it up.

The print media today are in, some might say, a death struggle with new media, you have seen major papers go under in the US recently.
So the pressure for 'scoops' become all the more important.

How many of you got that e-mail that claimed the AF A330 loss was FOR SURE caused by Airbus building shitty aircraft?
It in parts looked familiar, it was a re-hash from those unable or just unwilling to accept the NTSB's findings on AA587.
With the usual nationalistic rantings from those who could perhaps, benefit from some of the products on offer from spam e-mails.

We now know what they claimed (as have some on here), is wrong.
From physical evidence.
But, we live in an age, which the 'net has exacerbated, where the opinions of the uninformed are meant to be as valid as those who actually have expertise in a given field.
After all, this is how all those conspiracy theories work.

And yes, specialist aviation sources like Flight Global ARE much more reliable than mainstream media.
Because most of their staff have experience in this industry.

When AF had the loss of Concorde, which of course affected BA, some of us there had our own ideas about this incident.
Myself included.
But I had to change them, because the long, extensive investigation, elements of which I saw up close, proved otherwise.
It also left me in no doubt of the dedication, thoroughness of those doing this work.

We all have great fun on here picking through the gaping errors, of nearly all mainstream media reporting of aviation, not just accidents.
If they cannot get the basics right..............

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BA319-131
Posted 2009-07-02 12:34:24 and read 6734 times.



Quoting Swallow (Reply 84):
Who the heck cares what a U.S. actor thinks? Clearly, we shouldn't make flying decisions based on his opinion. But the problem for Airbus is that Kutcher has has 2,546,626 "followers" on Twitter

- Those without their own brains will think this is the gospal truth, sad that people can be led so easily.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BillReid
Posted 2009-07-02 13:38:17 and read 6596 times.



Quoting Wolbo (Reply 82):
And you know this how? Where are these 'many passengers'? Did you read a report showing this or have you perhaps spoken personally to these 'many passengers'? You might want to consider who is doing the stirring here.

From reading online blogs attached to articles which thousands of others are reading, the Telegraaf.nl for example. Even one flight attendant started a blog on whether he was safe on the Bus. The point being is "Never underestimate the stupidity of large crowds"

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 83):
You should have a look at the non-aviation related boards all around the world. Just look at the website of our own dutch Telegraaf. There you'll meet those people, saying they don't trust Airbus at all..

Thank you, and I find the same in France!

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 82):
That is pure speculation and does not warrant the certainty with which you make that statement. Apparently you see things that others don't but it doesn't seem to have any solid footing.

I work with the press in Public Relations from time to time and know the meaning of "The Truth Doesn't Matter, Its All About Perception!" If the travelling people start to imagine the BUS ain't safe watch it.
Not speculation at all, cause and effect. If something happens with a A330, just a simple reported computer problem, I would bet 10,000,000,000 to one that the press will be screaming and speculating that the product is flawed. Keep in mind this doesn't mean it is flawed, it just means they continue to sell advertising online or in print.

Quoting Swallow (Reply 84):
Who the heck cares what a U.S. actor thinks? Clearly, we shouldn't make flying decisions based on his opinion. But the problem for Airbus is that Kutcher has has 2,546,626 "followers" on Twitter

Exactly. AB and its customers could have a crippling problem.. Hopefully not a single problem is detected on a AB product for two years. But in contrast if something Does happen within weeks regardless of how minor then a FEEDING FRENZY could occur with A330 sales cancelled in the HUNDREDS. It doesn't matter how safe the bird is, it matters how safe the people who buy seats think it is. Just think what this could do to the B787 and A350XWB programmes.

I am sure B is enjoying this relief given the problems with the B787 structure. Just look at A.net in comparison there is 20:1 blogs on the Bus crash versus the B787 delay. Without the bus problems the B787 would have been the No.1 blog! But B even looks better turning and delaying the program even further for safety reasons, this is good P/R when it couyld have been tremendously worse.

Again look at the Telegraaf.nl blogs

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: EPA001
Posted 2009-07-02 14:50:02 and read 6442 times.



Quoting BillReid (Reply 78):
Now the press is in the process of exasperating this greatly. Adding fuel to the fire.

The press always does so. Not so long ago two very new Boeing's 737-NG went down, one in Africa and one in The Netherlands. Around that time you read more small news reports about other problems with these Boeing's or with the airline (especially Turkish Airlines).

Also not so long ago Qantas had some issues which made the news, again shortly after that time more minor reports of incidents on Qantas airplanes made the news.

Now it is two Airbuses that unfortunately shortly after each other crashed, one fairly new AF A330, which btw was the only modern wide body jet not to have crashed since EIS (1994) since the BA B777 crashed at LHR. Both are fortunately very safe planes btw. The other was a very old and apparently not very well maintained A310.

I am very sorry for the victims and their families, but the press usually covers situations like this way to superficial, thus creating the wrong image that you refer to. But as I said, this is not uncommon in media reports. And it is also not limited to airliners and airlines.

BTW: I follow those blogs on the Telegraaf.nl also. Most people would not know an Airbus from a Boeing, even if the type of aircraft hit them in the face. Many people I know, also many highly educated ones do not know which type of airliner they fly in and also do not even care for 0.01% about this.

The slogan "If it ain't Boeing, I am not going", which I have also read as "If it is a Boeing, I ain't going" will hardly have a bigger impact then 0.01% on the behavior of the general public on selecting their plane of choice. That already assumes they make the effort to make such a selection which at best 1 in every 10,000 people do.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Baroque
Posted 2009-07-02 19:29:56 and read 6189 times.



Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 86):
Those without their own brains will think this is the gospal truth, sad that people can be led so easily.

Sad indeed, but are you talking about just Airbii or also folk believing what is in the gospels, because quite a bit of that is somewhere between incredible (as in it cannot be believed) and rather dodgy?

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-07-02 19:45:36 and read 6137 times.



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 16):
Seems to me that in both cases, the entire fleet of both aircraft should have been grounded due to the loss / lack of fuel....

I don't know much about the Air Transat, but the Gimli Glider incident had nothing to do with the aircraft, but the lack of proper training on the new type by AC regarding the changes in fuel measurement and procedures.

So the fleet, in theory, could have be grounded by AC in order to make sure everyone was up to speed.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 78):
I have read several blogs in the Netherlands and France and the sentiment is there is a growing belief whether right or wrong, that the AB computers are flawed.

Airbus then needs to get their PR act in gear and realize that lack of information leads to fear.

Airbus should proactively say that they have examined their computer systems regarding the loss of airspeed indicators and that that alone could not have caused the aircraft to crash as it did. There must have been another unique factor that is unlikely to happen again.

But in a more diplomatic way than i wrote it.  Smile

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: CFBFrame
Posted 2009-07-02 19:56:36 and read 6093 times.

[b]Richierich['b] My point dealt with your lack of understanding that having the ability to bound a population means that there is a systemic issue. When Airbus could indentify the planes with the potentially defective pitot tubes that in itself meant that a failure mode can be identified and potentially corrected. And finally I said if EASA determined the failure to be one that required grounding the fleet would be grounded.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Chuchoteur
Posted 2009-07-03 09:55:06 and read 5665 times.



Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 51):
Both aircrafts, the A310 and A330 share the fuselage

Share the same fuselage cross-section dimensions (222 inches). not really the same thing...

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 64):
That's certainly possible, but unless you work with flight-critical aviation software, it's difficult to explain the difference to people between that and normal commercial software. It's, roughly, like the difference between your digital watch and the space shuttle.

The space shuttle has had two fatal incidents...

Quoting Swallow (Reply 84):
Actor Ashton Kutcher cautioned his fans on Wednesday that a pilot recommended to him not to fly on Airbus until the manufacturer's composite tail is declared safe.

Ah, the irony. As the BEA preliminary report describes, one of the few certainties that we do have on this incident is that the vertical tailplane was attached to the aircraft right through till impact with the sea...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 90):
I don't know much about the Air Transat, but the Gimli Glider incident had nothing to do with the aircraft, but the lack of proper training on the new type by AC regarding the changes in fuel measurement and procedures.

The Air Transat incident was all about attention being focused on a secondary problem, which led the crew to fuel transfer from one wing to the other when they got a fuel imbalance warning. The procedures and ECAM messages were subsequently changed to specify that in fuel imbalance situations, one should not activate the crossfeed unless one has done the procedures to verify they are not leaking fuel.

Had they not crossfed, they would've probably diverted ok on one engine...

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: BrouAviation
Posted 2009-07-03 10:01:23 and read 5642 times.



Quoting Chuchoteur (Reply 92):
The space shuttle has had two fatal incidents...

Which both had to do with hardware, and nothing with software.

Quoting Chuchoteur (Reply 92):
The Air Transat incident was all about attention being focused on a secondary problem, which led the crew to fuel transfer from one wing to the other when they got a fuel imbalance warning.

The first and main problem was wrong maintenance.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Zeke
Posted 2009-07-03 10:06:30 and read 5621 times.

The natural actual course for EASA and the FAA is to ask nothing from Airbus.

EASA KNOWS that air data systems from time to time have problems, on A330s, on 777s, on 727s to even a C-150 etc, they are normally not caused by a failure of the probes, but normally by the conditions the day.

If the FAA/EASA needs to change the certification requirements for the air data systems go ahead, but at this stage, every airliner s certified by EASA/FAA.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Manfredj
Posted 2009-07-03 14:50:34 and read 5351 times.



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 88):
Both are fortunately very safe planes btw.

That's not necessarily true, about either.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 88):
one fairly new AF A330, which btw was the only modern wide body jet not to have crashed since EIS (1994)

That doesn't make it inherently a safe airplane.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 88):
BTW: I follow those blogs on the Telegraaf.nl also. Most people would not know an Airbus from a Boeing, even if the type of aircraft hit them in the face

Following blogs does not make one more knowledgeable about trends, safety, or any other aspect of aviation. You get out of them what you take. And what you take isn't fact.

That's the problem. Blogs are just about as bad as the media. A whole bunch of people shouting their opinions who haven't got a clue of what they are talking about.

My point here is that just because an airplane has been safe for years, doesn't mean it stays safe and is given a life long pass on any occurrences. Each incident needs to be looked at in a new light. Airspeed indicators, hydraulics, or any one of the thousands of parts that go into a modern jetliner have an indefinite lifespan. We need to look at the incidents with an open mind; with the mentality that the part is broken until proven otherwise. That's ultimately how lives will be saved.

Topic: RE: Airbus Could Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-07-03 15:23:41 and read 5289 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 90):
Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 16):
Seems to me that in both cases, the entire fleet of both aircraft should have been grounded due to the loss / lack of fuel....


I don't know much about the Air Transat, but the Gimli Glider incident had nothing to do with the aircraft, but the lack of proper training on the new type by AC regarding the changes in fuel measurement and procedures.

It had at least something to do with the aircraft as the incident wouldn't have happened if the aircraft's fuel gauges had been working properly. The aircraft was only 4 months old. If the fuel gauge on your 4 month old car stopped working properly and you ran out of gas, wouldn't you consider that the problem had something to do with the car?


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