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Topic: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2009-07-26 19:17:24 and read 12746 times.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...7/27/2637051.htm?section=australia

I thought that pre-flight safety checks were mandatory prior to each and every flight. If this story is true, how does DJ get away with only inspecting their aircraft once a day? Is this a genuine issue, or is this another media smear campaign designed to cause fear to the uninitiated travelling public?

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: ZBBYLW
Posted 2009-07-26 19:23:37 and read 12711 times.

The requirment is do a "Daily Inspection". After that anything extra is bonus. Though it is good practice to do a quick one every flight.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2009-07-26 19:33:44 and read 12660 times.



Quoting CXB77L (Thread starter):

I thought that pre-flight safety checks were mandatory prior to each and every flight.

No. First flight of the day, and first flight after crew change is normal.

Quoting CXB77L (Thread starter):
Is this a genuine issue, or is this another media smear campaign designed to cause fear to the uninitiated travelling public?

The latter.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2009-07-26 19:53:26 and read 12533 times.

Ugh- allow me:

"The plane was preparing for take-off when a ground engineer noticed one of the wheels had fallen off."
Really? I didn't realize that there was an engineer at the end of the runway looking at nose tires. INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING WORDING.

Further, they go on to say that there isn't an inspection performed.... so what do they chalk this "engineer" "noticing one of the wheels" to? Just a rogue vagabond going about and looking at tires? Those crazy Aussies, never can predict what they're going to inspect next!
 Yeah sure

""If it had've occurred as say the wheel carriage was coming up, the wheel could have gone through one of the engines. Certainly it would have been serious.""
Debatable. Sure, the wheel COULD have gone through the engine. But that's like saying, "If my car engine stalls, I would lose my power steering, which COULD send my car careening into the Grand Canyon." Yes, of course it's possible, but wheels, see, are very heavy, and gravity being the only thing more predictable than death or taxes, they FALL when they FALL OFF.

And I love how quickly the finger gets pointed at Lufthansa Technik, noting that THEY did the work one year ago.
Of note, none of the rest of the fleet possessed corrosion or cracking.

So, as usual, the media isn't reacting appropriately. Yes, it's newsworthy, but not in the way it's been presented.

Signed,
Your friendly neighborhood 737 tech.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-07-26 20:16:27 and read 12422 times.

I'm pretty sure that's why every bogey on a commercial aircraft has 2 wheels, even though in theory, some of the smaller planes could use a single wheel for the nose, and possibly even the main gear depending on loading.

Redundancy is a wonderful thing.  Wink

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: MSYPI7185
Posted 2009-07-26 21:01:03 and read 12297 times.

So the article would also have you believe that the agents working the flight would have not notified the flight crew of the missing wheel on arrival. The person marshalling in the aircraft would not have noticed it either and the person chocking the nose wheel would not have noticed it? If any of these did see this, did they kept quiet? Give me a break, that would be the ultimate not my job!!

I find it interesting that if the nose wheel fell of mid-flight it could possibly go through one of the engines. Nose gear is not exposed mid-flight so that would be interesting.

Although this would be rare if not impossible, during the landing phase of flight when the gear was lowered, the wheel separated from the nose gear due to metal fatigue. I would believe that the separation would occur upon landing when the nose gear contacts the runway.

737 nose gear tires are very light as compared to MLG tire, so they could very well go out towards an engine, but not mid-flight. IIRC when I handled the Rotables at our station the 737 nose gear wheels weigh around 50 lbs +/-. MLG wheels are another story if they separate completely your talking about a wheel weighing at least 600 - 700 lbs as the brake assy would be more than likely included in the separation.

I have personally seen the latter when I was at CLT we had a 733 divert to us when a MLG tire separated from the aircraft on takeoff from MCO. The flight was headed to DAY.

What a BS news article.

Later MD

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: KBUF
Posted 2009-07-26 21:17:26 and read 12252 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63-fzw52XBk

Granted, this one was on landing rather than takeoff, but still...

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2009-07-26 21:38:21 and read 12159 times.

Really good to know the "Pieces fall of aircraft all the time!" brigade has arrived in full force...  Yeah sure
Makes me feel quite safe as a pax.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: MSYPI7185
Posted 2009-07-26 22:07:40 and read 12098 times.



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 8):
Really good to know the "Pieces fall of aircraft all the time!" brigade has arrived in full force...
Makes me feel quite safe as a pax.

Pieces do not fall off all the time, but on occasion they do. It is not unheard of for a piece to actually "fall off".

The vast majority of the time if a piece is missing it was deliberately removed by maintenance, usually to prevent something from happening to the aircraft or anyone on the ground if there is a chance it will fall off during flight. There are several pieces on the exterior of the aircraft that can be removed without compromising the safety of the aircraft, these pieces tend to be aerodynamic and/or cosmetic in nature. If a piece becomes damaged and a replacement is not readily available, then it usually will be removed to prevent further damage to the piece and/or other aircraft surfaces.

MD

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: JQflightie
Posted 2009-07-26 22:10:54 and read 12087 times.

Every plane on every sector has the pilot do a 'walk-around' to check the aircraft, but most airlines in Australia dont have the engineer check the aricraft every sector, the only airline in Australia that does that is QF...

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-07-26 22:35:27 and read 12014 times.



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 8):
Really good to know the "Pieces fall of aircraft all the time!" brigade has arrived in full force...

Wheels are redundant on aircraft because they do occasionally come off (for whatever reason) and we'd be dealing with a lot of fatalities if they weren't redundant. 737s have 6 wheels but can land or takeoff on 5, for example.

Which is not to say that it's okay that this one fell off, or everything is fine when it happens, just that the plane isn't going to crash when it happens.

Knowing that pieces can come off planes and still allow for safe landings should make you feel safer. If it doesn't, maybe you worry too much?

I'd feel much less safe if I knew that if any piece of a plane fell off, the plane would crash. I feel much safer knowing that even if mechanics slip up, I'm likely to survive their mistake.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Rsg85
Posted 2009-07-27 00:32:21 and read 11815 times.

Channel 9 has been showing some great close up shots on an ERJ nose landing gear.
Channel 10 has been showing images of DJ's blue/50th 737 taxing at SYD
But finally 7 has actual film of a DJ 737 at MEL, amazing journalism.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Springbok747
Posted 2009-07-27 00:35:34 and read 11807 times.

Bah..just more scare-mongering. ABC seems to be going the way of 7, 9, 10 and all other crap so-called 'news' outlets. AA737-623 made the point eloquently.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: PWMRamper
Posted 2009-07-27 00:47:02 and read 11730 times.



Quoting KBUF (Reply 7):

That would have scared the living crap out of me had I witnessed that happening.

I can just picture the passenger hitting the call button.

"Umm....don't mean to be a bother here, but we lost a wheel."

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2009-07-27 04:23:06 and read 11417 times.

Does anybody know the registration of the 738 involved?

Also, from personal experience, DJ typically take 30 mins to turn a 737 around at the gate but board the aircraft using both front and rear doors. QF seem to take longer, but typically use only the front door (at SYD at least).

Is it true that QF have an engineer inspect the aircraft after each flight and does this contribute to the slightly longer turn-around?

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2009-07-27 05:23:10 and read 11238 times.



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 6):
MLG wheels are another story if they separate completely your talking about a wheel weighing at least 600 - 700 lbs as the brake assy would be more than likely included in the separation.

No, it wouldn't. The 737NG MLG tire/wheel assy weighs 250lb with container, 225 without. Let's assume that the mechanics were smart enough to remove the container during the install (shouldn't assume anything these days, but still...) so you're looking at 225.
The brake assemblies are held onto the aircraft by steel cable. So even if the whole R/H axle was somehow ripped away with #2 tire, the #2 brake would still be there, dangling in the breeze.
What's FAR more likely (even though we're dealing with "likely" being equivalent to being struck by lightening 200 times by your fifth birthday) is the tire/wheel coming off by itself, due to improper install. In which case the brakes would stay on the axle as though nothing had happened.

Anyhow, it's not that this isn't a big deal, it is; it's simply that the journalism is being predictably irresponsible. As are certain officials involved, which is a trend I've noticed of late.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Peergynt
Posted 2009-07-27 08:53:57 and read 9637 times.

As a passenger I do have a terrible time accepting that anything going wrong with an aircraft seems to be regarded as *not unusual*, *common*, *media exaggerating*, *redundancy is a wonderful thing*.
So if the media doesn't bring the news how else would we know what is happening with our *safe airplanes*?
Media is usually not accurate. But how could they be? Would they need specialized crew for every subject?
Also please reflect about this: outside of your aviation area of expertise, how often do you really ponder about other subjects brought to you by the same media?
I am sorry but due to the economic turmoil, I don't believe is that hard to imagine airlines cutting expenses on maintenance. I really hope they are not.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2009-07-27 08:55:35 and read 9617 times.



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
Ugh- allow me:

"The plane was preparing for take-off when a ground engineer noticed one of the wheels had fallen off."
Really? I didn't realize that there was an engineer at the end of the runway looking at nose tires. INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING WORDING.

Further, they go on to say that there isn't an inspection performed.... so what do they chalk this "engineer" "noticing one of the wheels" to? Just a rogue vagabond going about and looking at tires? Those crazy Aussies, never can predict what they're going to inspect next!

Ugh....why don't we actually just get some facts correct here?
Firstly, tell me where it says anywhere in the article where the plane was at the end of the runway when noticed by an engineer? Thus tell me, if it says no such thing, how do you get "intentionally misleading wording" out of something that doesn't exist? Secondly, are you seriously saying there's no-one around an aircraft to notice something without it being a formal inspection?
C'mon, let's be frank and honest here......your whole 'argument' and feigned disdain is based on everything you've written being a pure concoction. Indeed, rather than being the article, your entire post is INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING WORDING (to use the very words you were accusing others of)

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2009-07-27 12:47:00 and read 6499 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 18):

Ugh....why don't we actually just get some facts correct here?

An axle breaking is not good, but not something to panic about. It's not like the plane was taxiing to the runway with a wheel not connected to the plane. I would guess that it apparently broke during push back.

[Edited 2009-07-27 12:51:41]

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Flylku
Posted 2009-07-27 17:10:51 and read 3919 times.



Quoting Peergynt (Reply 16):
So if the media doesn't bring the news how else would we know what is happening with our *safe airplanes*?
Media is usually not accurate. But how could they be? Would they need specialized crew for every subject?

Are you suggesting that it is better to report it wrong than not at all? Perhaps not but it sounds that way.

In the old days I think that editors valued accuracy over speed. News articles were how people stayed informed rather than entertained. Reporters actually viewed themselves as disseminators of facts rather than storytellers and as such would wait until they had an expert (or two) verify their report before printing/broadcasting it. They called it fact checking. Unfortunately, today they are just giving us what we demand. This is a real problem for technical industries like aviation.

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2009-07-27 18:44:20 and read 3169 times.



Quoting CXB77L (Thread starter):
If this story is true, how does DJ get away with only inspecting their aircraft once a day?

Easy... the maintenace program was approved by the governing agancy. With the airline I worked foe we only looked at the aircraft every 5 and 10 days.... the crews took care of the rest

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Rsg85
Posted 2009-07-27 19:35:37 and read 2826 times.



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 18):
It's not like the plane was taxiing to the runway with a wheel not connected to the plane. I would guess that it apparently broke during push back.

The incident happened on the taxiway and was spotted by another aircraft

Topic: RE: Safety Fears Raised After Plane Wheel Falls Off
Username: Tdscanuck
Posted 2009-07-27 22:00:43 and read 2702 times.



Quoting Peergynt (Reply 16):
As a passenger I do have a terrible time accepting that anything going wrong with an aircraft seems to be regarded as *not unusual*, *common*, *media exaggerating*, *redundancy is a wonderful thing*.

I believe that's true...most passengers feel the same way. That's because most passengers have no idea of the design philosophy behind aircraft. That's not a shot at you, or meant to "pooh-pooh" your concerns, it's just reality. A fundamental basis of aircraft design is that no single failure can threaten the safety of the aircraft or it's passengers. So, one thing breaking (like a single wheel), though certainly not desirable, and not "normal", is also not unsafe.

It's unusual for an airplane to have nothing wrong with it for very long...there's very often something on temporary repair, MMEL, CDL, etc. This is very very very different from being unsafe.

Quoting Peergynt (Reply 16):
So if the media doesn't bring the news how else would we know what is happening with our *safe airplanes*?

The major point is that, even after the thing happening, it's still a safe airplane. The difference between factory-fresh and actually unsafe is pretty huge...most airplanes spend most of their lives somewhere in the grey zone in between. The threshold that's allowable under the regulations, though, is still far far far biased towards the "factory-fresh" side.

Tom.


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