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Topic: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-10 02:09:56 and read 6388 times.

Did a quick search and cant see a thread other than ones already archived .



http://www.heathrowairport.com/porta...8759a0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/

BAA have just released new plans .

IIRC correctly what was going to be "Heathrow East" was originally scheduled for completion in 2012 , then moved to 2013 , then to early 2014.

According to the above "Heathrow East" doesnt exist anymore , there will now be T2 which apparently is going to be done in 2 stages with the first stage completed in 2013 but the second not completed until 2019 !

So , can someone 'in the know' please clarify for me - will *A be 'under one roof' at LHR as at the end of phase one in 2013  thumbsup , or not until the end of phase two in 2019  thumbsdown  ? I have re-read the article two or three times and it doesnt seem clear when 'under one roof' will be in place ( at least , it doesn't seem clear to me ) .

[Edited 2009-08-10 02:20:43]

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2009-08-10 05:57:36 and read 6157 times.

I think all star alliance members will be under one roof by 2013, at least most of them. More than that, I do not know.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-10 06:01:44 and read 6144 times.



Quoting CXfirst (Reply 1):
I think all star alliance members will be under one roof by 2013, at least most of them. More than that, I do not know.

I would like to think so , but the article states that T1 will still be in use until 'new' T2 is completed in 2019 which makes it sound as though 'under one roof' is still 10 years away , otherwise who will be using T1 from 2013 until 2019 ?

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: EK413
Posted 2009-08-10 06:07:59 and read 6117 times.



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
I would like to think so , but the article states that T1 will still be in use until 'new' T2 is completed in 2019 which makes it sound as though 'under one roof' is still 10 years away , otherwise who will be using T1 from 2013 until 2019 ?

Will LHR sustain the traffic flow until 2019..???

By 2019 maybe its time to consider the prospects of a NEW terminal...???

EK413

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Willd
Posted 2009-08-10 07:01:38 and read 6025 times.

Reading the press release from BAA there is no real difference other than the name.

IIRC Heathrow East project was going to involve rebuilding Terminal 2/Queens Building and then knocking Terminal One and rebuilding it as Heathrow East.

The T2 project announced, is the exact same. So T2/Queens will be knocked down and rebuilt over the next two years and reopened as T2. T1 will then be knocked and down and the replacement building will be built onto the side of T2. The only thing that has changed seems to be the estimated dates for completion.

With the Government obssessed with the UK delivering "a decade of world class sport", it will be interesting to see just how LHR copes with the added numbers. Certainly by London 2012, T2 will be complete. By the time the Rugby World Cup and potentially the FIFA World Cup arrive- the replacement of T1 will still not be finished.

Also worth noting that T4 is undergoing a mini refresh at the moment also.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-10 07:07:13 and read 6003 times.

Quoting Willd (Reply 4):
Certainly by London 2012, T2 will be complete.

I think you have missed the word "not" from that sentence .

Quoting Willd (Reply 4):
So T2/Queens will be knocked down and rebuilt over the next two years and reopened as T2. T1 will then be knocked down

no , according to the link T1 will still be around and in use until 2019 which is when T2 'phase two' will be completed

...Terminal 1 will close when phase two is complete in 2019, however it will remain open throughout construction.....

- this seems quite different from the previous plan .

[Edited 2009-08-10 07:09:41]

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Rutankrd
Posted 2009-08-10 08:31:11 and read 5871 times.

Wiild is correct there is No change other than time-frame and acknowledgment that Phase 1 is to go by the name T2A.

Visit this link to download the design report document issued back in September 2008.

(This document should be on the BAA site somewhere but can't find it so I've loaded it in my public folder at mobile me.
Clicking the link will launch a browser tab and simply click on the arrow in the grey circle to the right of the file name to download)

http://idisk.mac.com/keithdoherty-Public?view=web

As to your comments re *A and single terminal operation well you might well be right to assume that will be 10+ years away and on completion of Phase 2 actually.

Fact is The current T1 can not handle them all right now. You know its got 16 fewer gates than two years ago!

Both SAS and Air Canada are remaining in T3 for sometime yet.

Getting back to what will remain of the current T1 after phase 1 of the T2A construction well its just the northern terminal under croft station,and pier 4a and this will continue to be used by a few non aligned carriers such as Aer Lingus/Transaero/Icelandair and Cyprus Airways and probably Bmi (LHuk) UK and Eire services.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-10 08:39:34 and read 5847 times.



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 6):
Getting back to what will remain of the current T1 after phase 1 of the T2A construction well its just the northern terminal under croft station,and pier 4a and this will continue to be used by a few non aligned carriers such as Aer Lingus/Transaero/Icelandair and Cyprus Airways and probably Bmi (LHuk) UK and Eire services.

thanks for that Keith , I had thought that all non-aligned airlines were going to end up in T4 eventually since Skyteam is by far the smallest alliance at LHR so they dont need the whole terminal ? Anyway , you have made the whole thing a lot clearer than BAA managed in their press release  thumbsup  ( then again , why would anyone be surprised at that ! )

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: ZKOJH
Posted 2009-08-10 15:39:55 and read 4577 times.

in ten years time 'Star Alliance' will have around 50 members most of whom operate out of LHR so think BAA might just start planning for that number and when BAA get round to building T6 and the 3rd runway make that for 'Star' use only.

but as it stands now all star carriers that have not moved into T1 are staying put till after 'London 2012'

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: VV701
Posted 2009-08-10 17:21:10 and read 4387 times.



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 6):
Both SAS and Air Canada are remaining in T3 for sometime yet.

According to Airport Coordination the *A consolidation will be achieved in Novemberv 2013. See page 11 of this document:

http://80.168.119.219/UserFiles/File...20Start%20of%20Season%20report.pdf

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-10 20:58:55 and read 4341 times.



Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):

http://80.168.119.219/UserFiles/File...t.pdf

thanks very much for that , I see that it talks about the *A carriers from T1 and T3 moving to T2A around Nov 2013 ( at least this makes it clear that they should be 'under one roof' even if it might be a bit crowded ) , but there is no mention of the T4 *A carriers which , at least theoretically , by then should include CO JJ and AI ( or have they been left out simply because they are not yet in *A )

BTW interesting that it shows AI as a 'non-aligned' airline moving from T3 to T4 by Sep '10 - perhaps like a lot of us BAA are getting skeptical that AI will ever join *A  Wink

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Mozart
Posted 2009-08-11 00:49:47 and read 4341 times.

What I couldn't figure: how many gates will the new T2 have? Somewhere I read "9 gates", but that sounds wrong to me.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2009-08-11 01:57:22 and read 4341 times.

There will be far more than 0 gates at the new T2.

I was at LHR yesterday and my impression was that most Star members are already in T1. The * lounge is where the old BA lounge was at T1 and is used by several * members.. I saw NZ, UA, TP OS besides LH docked at the T1 gates

Interesting how old and new parts of the terminals are combined, especially for someone like me who travels through this complex regurlary for over 40 years now.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-11 02:21:37 and read 4341 times.



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
I was at LHR yesterday and my impression was that most Star members are already in T1.

I believe only around half of the current *A members which serve LHR are at T1 . If I am not mistaken AC , SQ , TG , NH , MS , TK amongst others are still stuck at T3 until late 2013.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Myt332
Posted 2009-08-11 02:39:14 and read 4341 times.



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
There will be far more than 0 gates at the new T2.

Well that's a plus.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Rutankrd
Posted 2009-08-11 02:42:11 and read 4341 times.

PamHam

Actually nine wide body width stands DIRECTLY connected to the Terminal building in Phase 1 is about right.

Plus remotes and the mid field pier.

Current *A occupants in T1 are ALL LH and affiliates (LH italia, AUA, SWR, bmi) plus LOT TAP and Croatia.
United, US Air, Air New Zealand, South African and Asiana.

Following *A remain in T3 for now
Air Canada, Air China, Air India, All Nippon-ANA, Egyptair,Turkish Airlines, Thai International, Singapore, Blue 1 and SAS.

Continental are in T4 and are to remain there under current plans and the status of TAM within *A is to be determined.

And finally the only other *A London operator is Adria and they are operating into Gatwick at the moment.

Spanair and Shanghai has no London Schedules on own metal.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Rutankrd
Posted 2009-08-11 03:00:21 and read 4341 times.

Oh forgot one

LH affiliate Brussels Airlines.

Like Adria they serve Gatwick currently with just two flights a day to/from Brussels.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2009-08-11 03:03:14 and read 4341 times.



Quoting Myt332 (Reply 14):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
There will be far more than 0 gates at the new T2.

Well that's a plus.

no, it's minus. O is less than 9

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Myt332
Posted 2009-08-11 04:06:56 and read 4341 times.



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
no, it's minus. O is less than 9

Who says Germans don't have a sense of humour?  Silly

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-11 04:16:21 and read 4341 times.



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 15):
Following *A remain in T3 for now
Air Canada, Air China, Air India, All Nippon-ANA, Egyptair,Turkish Airlines, Thai International, Singapore, Blue 1 and SAS.

thanks for the summary  thumbsup  , although , confusingly , as per the link kindly provided by VV701

http://80.168.119.219/UserFiles/File...20Start%20of%20Season%20report.pdf

AI are supposed to move to T4 before the end of next year rather than staying in T3 .

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Rutankrd
Posted 2009-08-11 05:09:22 and read 4343 times.

Yes see the document states BY September 2010 for AI to transfer to T4.
Like the use of "by" - that's a bit flexible however I do expect they will move into T4 as planned well at least until completion of Heathrow East Phase 2 on the current T1 site in 10+ years.

Based in current schedules AI require one morning, two midday and one late evening gate stands per day.

Also note two references in the document page 11 to Etihad for moving to T4 both next month and again in twelve months. Surely one of those should actually read Emirates?

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-11 05:36:55 and read 4343 times.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years as new members are admitted to various alliances.

I suppose any new OW members will be put in T3 ( does S7 operate to LHR ?) and any new Skyteam members at T4 ( does VN fly to LHR ? ) , but it seems that *A will still be at a disadvantage for a while with operations scattered across the airport at T1,3 and 4 at least until end 2013 and then T2A and T4 until 2019 . ET has been picked as a likely future *A member , what terminal are they at for the moment ?

As both LY and EI are 'non-aligned' surely they should be moved to T4 which seems to have been designated as the Skyteam and nonaligned terminal . Between them they must be clogging up quite a lot of space in T1 and a move would free up some valuable space to permit CO , JJ , AI to move to T1 , that way at least *A would only be split over two rather than three terminals making for easier connections . It seems more logical to me , so far as I know neither of them have strong links to any of the *A carriers so there is no compelling reason for them to stay in T1 . ( I think UN should stay as they seem to be another possible *A candidate and since UN and BD codeshare their LHR-DME services it makes sense to keep these together in the same terminal .)

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Rutankrd
Posted 2009-08-11 07:01:46 and read 4341 times.

S7 don't current serve the UK and i think BA would sooner leave it that way rather transporting pax to DME for onward transfer by S7 within the CIS states. (they do serve Madrid to connect with IBE but only once a week,several German cities and Dublin!)

As yet an air service agreement has to be negotiated and signed at inter-government level between Vietnam and UK so there are no direct services available.

Ethiopian are in T3 where they have been for about 35 years.
Some days the aircraft either a B752 or B763 can be on the ground for 12 hours or more and will park on a remote stand.

Aer Lingus have been in T1 since the day it opened and El-Al were moved in so that special security measures could placed in a single Terminal environment.
These measures remain in place so they stay put for now.

As i said earlier pier 4a will remain connected to T1 at least until 2019 .
It was originally constructed for Irish and domestic services and thats where Aer Lingus will continue to operate from

I could actually see just a few more non aligned European carriers transferring to T1 when T2 closes and i am thinking of JAT/Tarom/Bulgaria Air these are small fry and operate no more than a single daily rotation for much of the year - This is conjecture however.

The few CIS and Central Asia operators in T2 will follow Air France/Aeroflot/Alitalia/CSA as will the Maghreb carriers handled by AF into T4.

That leaves Olympic, two Nigerian, a Syrian and Yemani also going T2-T4 later in the year.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: GCT64
Posted 2009-08-11 07:25:09 and read 4343 times.



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Thread starter):
According to the above "Heathrow East" doesnt exist anymore , there will now be T2 which apparently is going to be done in 2 stages with the first stage completed in 2013 but the second not completed until 2019 !

Is this a simple piece of classic diversionary tactics?
Attempting to cover up a delay / problem by renaming the project / building.
The UKAEA may (some allege) have attempted this approach with Windscale/Sellafield.

I doubt it will confuse passengers at all by closing T2, expanding T1 (by including bits of T2), opening T2 (inlcuding bits of T1), closing T1.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: VV701
Posted 2009-08-11 08:57:56 and read 4341 times.



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
confusingly , as per the link kindly provided by VV701

http://80.168.119.219/UserFiles/File...20Start%20of%20Season%20report.pdf

AI are supposed to move to T4 before the end of next year rather than staying in T3

The link dates back to 'Start of Summer Season 2009' - probably March or even February - although it was not published until around May. And *A is very much a moving target.

Indeed I doubt that we will now see all *A airlines in one terminal at LHR much as we will certainly never see all oneworld airlines in the one terminal. The best laid plans of mice and men..

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Mutu
Posted 2009-08-11 13:00:46 and read 3016 times.



Quoting VV701 (Reply 24):
Indeed I doubt that we will now see all *A airlines in one terminal at LHR much as we will certainly never see all oneworld airlines in the one terminal. The best laid plans of mice and men..

I dont suppose there is a major hub on the planet also being the home base of a significant alliance member that could comfortably accomodate a collection of say 30 carriers all with reasonable frequency in a dedicated terminal? Its one of the drawbacks of having such a large membership.


frankly *A should consider building its own airports !! (this is a joke BTW)

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-08-11 15:25:25 and read 2996 times.



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 15):
And finally the only other *A London operator is Adria and they are operating into Gatwick at the moment.

Greek carrier, Aegean Airlines, is expected to become a Star Alliance member by June 2010 (membership application was accepted a couple of months ago). They just announced that they're moving their twice-daily STN-ATH service to LHR on October 25 to better feed other Star members' longhaul services.

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2009-08-13 23:45:26 and read 2764 times.

to my astonishment I have actually received a friendly and reasonably helpful email from BAA in response to an email I sent them regarding 'Heathrow East /T2'  thumbsup 

I thought that I would share it with you

Many thanks for your email about the new Terminal 2.

We have decided to stop using the name 'Heathrow East' as it was felt this terminal should be numbered in line with Heathrow's other terminals.

I appreciate that this has introduced a degree of confusion, however with increasingly common usage it is hoped the new name will be readily adopted. It was also felt that as we had not undertaken a considerable amount of publicity about the new terminal, this name change wouldn't be too significant an issue.

In terms of a completion date for the new Terminal 2; we have been very honest about the fact that our original ambition of opening it by 2012 was not going to be met. Construction of the first phase will be complete in 2013 and will provide accommodation for 20 million Star Alliance passengers. A second phase will be complete in 2019, providing accommodation for a further 10 million Star Alliance passengers.

We are not committing to a date for the start of operations. Airlines are likely to move into the new Terminal 2 over a period of time from late 2013.

I hope this has provided some clarity.

Regards

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2009-08-14 03:17:54 and read 2674 times.

Airports can't rebuild terminals on the basis of alliances, as they're not set in stone. By2019 I'm sure there will be some divorces and new partnerships, maybe a 4th alliance even!

Topic: RE: Confused Re LHR Heathrow East/T2
Username: 757ops
Posted 2009-08-14 03:52:06 and read 2633 times.



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 22):
Ethiopian are in T3 where they have been for about 35 years.
Some days the aircraft either a B752 or B763 can be on the ground for 12 hours or more and will park on a remote stand.

Thats correct ET710 flights that operate in days 467 are morning arrivals (0825/0925) and all flights depart between 2100-2135. ET700 flights on days 135 are evening turnarounds arriving at 2000 departing at 2135.

ET is staying in T3 for the near future, even as a non-aligned airline, like EK is too, and yes 2009 is the ET 35yr anniversary of flights to LHR, all into T3


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