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Topic: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: JetBlue777
Posted 2009-08-04 18:40:49 and read 27097 times.

Hi, I just wondered why is ATL the busiest airport in the world? First of all, Atlanta is not as heavily populated like cities such as New York, Los Angeles or Tokyo. I know those three cities has more than one major airports. Where do most people that use ATL come from? Atlanta is not that heavily populated so it always puzzles me why its the busiest airport in the world.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2009-08-04 18:43:36 and read 27117 times.



Quoting JetBlue777 (Thread starter):
Hi, I just wondered why is ATL the busiest airport in the world? First of all, Atlanta is not as heavily populated like cities such as New York, Los Angeles or Tokyo. I know those three cities has more than one major airports. Where do most people that use ATL come from? Atlanta is not that heavily populated so it always puzzles me why its the busiest airport in the world.

ATL is Delta's main hub that they built. Remember that most of ATL's passengers are not O&D passengers, but are connecting passengers. JFK and LAX have a significantly larger O&D base, but have less connecting passengers than ATL.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: FlyPIJets
Posted 2009-08-04 18:45:57 and read 27091 times.

Atlanta also has only one airport - other large cities divide traffic amongst multiple airports.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-08-04 18:47:35 and read 27085 times.

Atlanta is the largest air hub on earth for two reasons:

First, it is in the world's largest air market - by far - the United States. The U.S. domestic market dwarfs any other on earth, and is larger than most of the world's other major air markets combined.

Second, and of course obvious, it is the largest and most important hub - by far - for Delta, the world's largest airline. Delta has, since deregulation, put a huge and increasing emphasis on Atlanta, and has tended to preserve the Atlanta network time after time, even at the expense of other hubs.

Third, and finally, while Atlanta is certainly not the largest population center in the United States, it is the largest population center in the U.S. with only one major airport. Every single other larger U.S. population center has at least two major regional airports (and, in the case of New York, LA and arguably Chicago, more than two), except Philadelphia - which only has PHL, but also is within a relatively very close distance of two other major hubs - BWI and EWR.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: ATCT
Posted 2009-08-04 18:48:23 and read 27064 times.

There are 2 big reasons...

1. The Main Hubs for;
Delta
AirTran

Two major carriers that operate a BUNCH of connecting traffic through Atlanta.

2. ATL's location between the NE Corridor and the growing sun-belt communities also helps immensely. It is also the sole airport serving a large metro area. New York may have more people, but divide that between EWR, JFK, LGA, ISP, HPN, SWF and maybe even ABE, IPT, and HVN and you got a LOT of airport options. (let alone add in the corporate at TEB, MMU, Farmingdale etc.). ATL provides easy connections to the West Coast, South Central, and South East US to the northeast. Its also (some would argue against) and easy airport to connect through. I worked for Delta for 2 years and never had an issue connecting there. (My current airport IAH is a mess compared to ATL).

ATCT

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Ncflyer
Posted 2009-08-04 18:55:42 and read 26990 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Second, and of course obvious, it is the largest and most important hub - by far - for Delta, the world's largest airline. Delta has, since deregulation, put a huge and increasing emphasis on Atlanta, and has tended to preserve the Atlanta network time after time, even at the expense of other hubs.

Just to point out ATL was the world's largest airport before DL was the world's largest airline. . . .

DTW is I believe a larger metro city with only one airport (I can't count Detroit City). At least it's a larger metro area now, might not be for much longer.

One day sooner than we think, China air traffic will outstrip the US. Will be interesting to see if ATL holds on to its lead.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2009-08-04 19:01:08 and read 26932 times.

First off, its one of the biggest cities with only one airport. It's the 8th biggest metro. But bigger cities with presumably more traffic have it divided amongst other airports (New York has 3, LA 4-5, Chicago 2, Dallas 2, Houston 2). And, I think the Delta hub plays a huge role. A lot of the people that come through that hub are connecting. If United had a 1000 flight hub in O'hare, O'hare would obviously have more traffic in flights and passengers. So a lot of the high airplane movements and passengers are due to the massive Delta hub. And, the location helps. Being essentially a gateway to the southeast, and being near the major population centers in the northeast helps justify Delta's big hub.

Looking at CVG, their traffic has fallen quite a bit. And even if fares go down and o@d goes up, the airport's numbers will still be smaller than it was with the Delta hub, because the airport used to handle more connecting traffic. Most cities can't maintain 300+ flights on their own. They need the connecting traffic to help.

Long story short, I think it is due to fact that Atlanta only has 1 airport for its city, that they have a huge hub in Delta (and Airtran's hub) that push numbers up, and to a smaller extent, location. If New York had one airport, it would have over 100 million passengers a year (the port authority says it handled 107 million in 2008), more than Atlanta's 80 million passengers. But either way, Atlanta is going to be up there; its still one of America's biggest cities.

The big question is whether O'hare will ever pass Atlanta up again.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-08-04 19:02:30 and read 26908 times.



Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 5):
DTW is I believe a larger metro city with only one airport (I can't count Detroit City). At least it's a larger metro area now, might not be for much longer.

Nope. Either as a Metropolitian Statistical Area (MSA) or Combined Statistical Area (CSA), Atlanta is larger than Detroit - by 900,000 or 200,000 - respectively.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: FlyPIJets
Posted 2009-08-04 19:07:49 and read 26862 times.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Nope. Either as a Metropolitian Statistical Area (MSA) or Combined Statistical Area (CSA), Atlanta is larger than Detroit - by 900,000 or 200,000 - respectively.

If you look at Census Bureau Urban Areas, Detroit is larger.

[Edited 2009-08-04 19:10:10]

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Dtwclipper
Posted 2009-08-04 19:09:18 and read 26845 times.

ATL Its metropolitan statistical area has a population of 5,376,285
DTW The Census Bureau's 2008 estimate placed the population at 4,425,110,

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Nope. Either as a Metropolitian Statistical Area (MSA) or Combined Statistical Area (CSA), Atlanta is larger than Detroit - by 900,000 or 200,000 - respectively.

Correct.

ATL Its metropolitan statistical area has a population of 5,376,285
DTW The Census Bureau's 2008 estimate placed the population at 4,425,110

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: ElBandGeek
Posted 2009-08-04 19:13:42 and read 26808 times.



Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 6):
The big question is whether O'hare will ever pass Atlanta up again.

Even after the expasion is complete, the only way I see that happening is if either UA or AA cave and cutback significantly. With the dual hub, neither one has an operation nearly as big as DL has in ATL. If there was only one of them (or if they had a split closer to that of DL and FL), capacity on alot of routes could be "optimized" (cut didn't seem like the best word) and flights could be shifted towards expanding into more markets than they don't currently have room for.
There's also the terminal issue. i think ORD would probably benefit from an ATL style layout with one large terminal instead of the 4 smaller ones they have now, but that's about as likely as WN abandoning MDW for ORD

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: CYXUK
Posted 2009-08-04 19:14:22 and read 26790 times.

I can't remember where, but I once heard that 55% of PAX through ATL are connecting to other destinations

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: ArmitageShanks
Posted 2009-08-04 19:27:25 and read 26734 times.



Quoting CYXUK (Reply 11):
I can't remember where, but I once heard that 55% of PAX through ATL are connecting to other destinations

I'd be surprised if it were that low of a number.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2009-08-04 19:33:46 and read 26696 times.

[

Quoting CYXUK (Reply 11):
I can't remember where, but I once heard that 55% of PAX through ATL are connecting to other destinations

From the Atlanta Airport Website:
Connecting and O&D
Connecting — 64.2%
Originating & Destination — 35.8%

That's a lot of connecting traffic.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2009-08-04 19:37:49 and read 26680 times.



Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 12):
I'd be surprised if it were that low of a number.

So would I - my guess would be 66-70%

The old saying in the Southeast US is that when you die, you will have to change planes in Atlanta whether you are going to heaven or hell.

A lot of people forget the ATL primary service area is not just the city - but everything north of MIA, south of IAD and east of MEM.

US Airways CLT hub is the only large airline operation in the region which does not run traffic through ATL.

Yes, I know Southwest does not run through ATL, but their operation in the Southeast is limited compared to other parts of the nation they serve.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Josh32121
Posted 2009-08-04 19:46:22 and read 26599 times.

Has anyone ever done a comparison of curbside linear footage compared to the number of gates (or passengers handled)? I would expect LGA and LAX to have some of the higher ratios; ATL, CLT among the smallest.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2009-08-04 19:46:31 and read 26599 times.



Quoting ATCT (Reply 4):
ATL's location between the NE Corridor and the growing sun-belt communities also helps immensely.

Between NYC (JFK, LGA & EWR), PHL, BOS amongst others and Florida (MIA, FLL, MCO & TPA) makes ATL the ideal connection point. These have been historical large passenger volumes for DL for years.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 14):
The old saying in the Southeast US is that when you die, you will have to change planes in Atlanta whether you are going to heaven or hell.

Even back in the days when Eastern Airlines competed with DL at ATL that was the motto.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: MD-90
Posted 2009-08-04 20:14:27 and read 26481 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Atlanta is the largest air hub on earth for two reasons:

4. ATL has five parallel runways.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-08-04 20:16:24 and read 26472 times.



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 17):
4. ATL has five parallel runways.

That helps, but the reason I did not include that was because other airports that have less traffic have more airports. DFW has seven runways - all non-intersecting - and yet is a smaller airport (by traffic) than Atlanta.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Spacecadet
Posted 2009-08-04 20:21:17 and read 26448 times.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 16):
Between NYC (JFK, LGA & EWR), PHL, BOS amongst others and Florida (MIA, FLL, MCO & TPA) makes ATL the ideal connection point.

I really cannot imagine that there is a popular destination you can only get to from JFK, LGA or EWR through ATL. I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

Are there really popular routes like this that make ATL the "ideal" connection point for New York area airports?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-04 20:39:27 and read 26364 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

You are joking, aren't you? If not, you need a wider circle of friends.

Do you know anyone in NY that has connected through anywhere?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: NYC2theworld
Posted 2009-08-04 21:00:47 and read 26271 times.

Lets figure this out...what popular destinations (i.e. has mainline service - so RJs don't count) are exclusively severed from ATL non-stop that are not served from JFK/EWR/LGA non-stop?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Dia77
Posted 2009-08-04 21:11:18 and read 26216 times.



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 20):
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

You are joking, aren't you? If not, you need a wider circle of friends.

Do you know anyone in NY that has connected through anywhere?

I live in Manhattan and fly over 100,000 miles a year. I never connect through ATL. There are flights from LGA, JFK and EWR to just about every location that is served through ATL.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DeltAirlines
Posted 2009-08-04 21:26:15 and read 26151 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
except Philadelphia - which only has PHL, but also is within a relatively very close distance of two other major hubs - BWI and EWR.

PHL also has one (relatively important) factor hampering its air travel too - the presence of Amtrak. A good bit of Philadelphia business travel is either to Washington DC or New York City - and no one in their right mind would fly from Philadelphia to either one of these cities for O&D. Amtrak is 90 minutes to Penn Station, 2 hours to Union Station - CBD to CBD in all cases as well. The Southeast is just not as dense as the Northeast - the nearest large city is Charlotte, about 3 hours away if you cruise at 80 mph and there's no traffic on I-85.

Quoting Dia77 (Reply 22):
I live in Manhattan and fly over 100,000 miles a year. I never connect through ATL. There are flights from LGA, JFK and EWR to just about every location that is served through ATL.

LGA/JFK/EWR will get you to a lot of the larger destinations domestically - which is what a lot of people fly to. But if you need to get to a small town, even on the Eastern Seaboard, you need to connect somewhere. Cities even such as Tallahassee, Pensacola, etc. require connections. Even some larger US cities - Albuquerque, Reno, Tuscon in the lower 48 - require a change of planes (and in the case of ABQ and TUS, ATL offers that possibility).

But if you're going to any real large city, then you're fine with a nonstop out of a NYC airport. But not everyone can do that - I'm lucky in that in the 100k miles I fly a year, the 90% of those miles can be done on a nonstop flight out of MSP - cities such as MCO, LAS, LAX, etc. But there are some trips I make (Ontario, CA; Greensboro, NC, etc) where I can connect or take a nonstop and drive 50-75 miles. Given that I'm 23 and don't like paying underage renters fees, I'll take the connection.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Yeogeo
Posted 2009-08-04 21:59:05 and read 26051 times.



Quoting NYC2theworld (Reply 21):
what popular destinations (i.e. has mainline service - so RJs don't count) are exclusively served from ATL non-stop that are not served from JFK/EWR/LGA non-stop?

Let’s see... from the top of my head** the following are served nonstop from Atlanta with at least one mainline jet and not from EWR/JFK/LGA:

Albuquerque NM
Atlantic City NJ
Bloomington IL
Branson MO
Colorado Springs CO
El Paso TX
Flint MI
Jackson MS
Jackson WY
Lagos Nigeria
New York NY (ha!)
Managua Nicaragua
St. Lucia West Indies
Stuttgart Germany
Tuscon AZ

Quite a mixed bag.

But to be fair, I’m pretty sure there’d be a larger list of routes out of the three NYC airport not served by ATL, no?


**I’ve always wanted to say that-I'm kidding of course. Actually, I did a quick comparison of routes in my handy OAG pocket flight guide - admittedly not a very complete database but I fully expect to be corrected by a-netters  duck 

yeo

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: RwSEA
Posted 2009-08-04 22:46:01 and read 25959 times.

I think we're missing another point here as to why ATL is such a busy airport. Until very recently, DL was the third-largest carrier in the country, however their network was very unevently slanted towards ATL. In contrast, the AA and UA networks were more evenly distributed throughout their larger hubs (AA at DFW/ORD/MIA and UA at ORD/DEN/IAD). AA had a very large hub at DFW, and a smaller one at ORD, but the two are more equal than ATL and CVG for instance. Same in the case of UA at ORD and DEN. With DL's structure of having hubs in smaller markets such as CVG and SLC, the network had to be weighted more towards the one larger hub market, which was ATL.

Now with the NW merger, DL has more hubs in larger cities and the network can be more evenly spread. An early example of this is the cancellation of ATL-PVG with the remaining service at DTW. DL now has more options to spread traffic across their system, which could very well mean one day that they shrink a bit in ATL as they are able to rationalize their network.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: AADC10
Posted 2009-08-04 22:46:32 and read 27071 times.

ATL has beaten ORD the last decade or so because it has a better runway layout and more gates, along with slightly better weather. If ORD built more gates and completes its new runways than it could reclaim the title, assuming anyone would actually want it. ATL was one of the first hubs in the modern sense as it was used by Delta to collect passengers from the small to medium sized cities in the deep south and funnel them to their destinations.

Obviously DFW and DEN could handle more movements than ATL but there is not enough interest to do so.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 15):
Has anyone ever done a comparison of curbside linear footage compared to the number of gates (or passengers handled)? I would expect LGA and LAX to have some of the higher ratios; ATL, CLT among the smallest.

I would think that MCI would have a very high amount of curbside relative to gates and passengers, along with DFW because they both have long semi-circle shaped terminals with adjacent roadways intended for O&D traffic. There is probably a correlation between the curbspace-gate/pax ration and the O&D-connecting ratio.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-08-04 23:44:06 and read 26899 times.



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 25):
Now with the NW merger, DL has more hubs in larger cities and the network can be more evenly spread. An early example of this is the cancellation of ATL-PVG with the remaining service at DTW. DL now has more options to spread traffic across their system, which could very well mean one day that they shrink a bit in ATL as they are able to rationalize their network.

Post merger only 2 hubs in the DL/NW network have grown. SLC by like 3% and ATL by IIRC 11%. Doesn't look like it to me.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: SATexan
Posted 2009-08-04 23:46:06 and read 26876 times.



Quoting Yeogeo (Reply 24):
Flint MI
Jackson MS
Jackson WY
Lagos Nigeria
New York NY (ha!)
Managua Nicaragua
St. Lucia West Indies

From the top of my head I remember AA serving LGA-FNT and JFK-St Lucia and the CO flight from EWR to Jackson MS. Not sure if those flights still exist after all these cuts.

But, ofcourse the destinations served (non stop) by ATL are way too many..

MAO, BSB, REC, BFZ...just to name a few  Wink

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-08-05 03:53:19 and read 25949 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I really cannot imagine that there is a popular destination you can only get to from JFK, LGA or EWR through ATL. I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

I'm in BOS and I can say pretty much the same. But I suspect that's because NYC and BOS passengers have plenty of choices including non-stops. It's people who originate in the Southeast that are typically limited in their options and have to fly through ATL. And the Southeast is a very big area. For us in the Northeast, ATL is a very poor connecting place for going anywhere other than, well, the South  Smile

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2009-08-05 04:19:47 and read 25704 times.

Welll for one it is a true power hub that is simply not touched. To see the hub in full force is truely impressive for both Airtran and Delta. Additionally the metro is at 5.6 million. It is one of the fastest growing metro in the country and is still(although slower) growing even in this economy. It is slated as one of the top5 cities to rebound as the economy picks up. Also it is an intensely buisness oriented city as well as a very wealthy metro and as such has very high O&D numbers comparitively for a city its size. Plus it is the flagship city in the South east region.

The cool thing is there is talk of the 6th runway, a new international terminal with 12 gates to work in tandem with the current 30 gate international concourse and land left in the current foot print to build another large terminal complex.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-05 05:31:41 and read 24955 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 29):
For us in the Northeast, ATL is a very poor connecting place for going anywhere other than, well, the South

But you still keep coming!  Wink

Others to add to the list (might be served by RJs from NYC, but not mainline).

SAV
MYR
CHS
RIC
ORF

Essentially, there is no non-RJ service to any airport in NYC from any airport along the Atlantic coast north of Jacksonville, FL to Washington DC.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Lexy
Posted 2009-08-05 05:31:51 and read 24959 times.



Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 30):
a new international terminal with 12 gates

Construction is ongoing with the new international terminal. The sixth runway? I don't see that happening anytime soon. That new 5th bad boy isn't used nearly as much as the other four. Part of that is the economy and capacity cuts, but also the taxi times and hold times form it are just rediculous.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: STT757
Posted 2009-08-05 05:35:38 and read 24894 times.



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 31):
Others to add to the list (might be served by RJs from NYC, but not mainline).

SAV
MYR
CHS
RIC
ORF

CO flies to all those listed, MYR gets mainline from CO at EWR and NK at LGA.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-05 05:46:04 and read 24758 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 33):
CO flies to all those listed, MYR gets mainline from CO at EWR and NK at LGA

Someone had put on the no RJ stipulation.

Ahhh here it is:

Quoting NYC2theworld (Reply 21):
Lets figure this out...what popular destinations (i.e. has mainline service - so RJs don't count) are exclusively severed from ATL non-stop that are not served from JFK/EWR/LGA non-stop?

CO flies with RJs to all of them (MYR is by Colgan on a Dash-8). I had missed the Spirit Air though MYR-LGA 2X/day

[Edited 2009-08-05 05:47:14]

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2009-08-05 06:02:15 and read 24583 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
Quoting MD-90 (Reply 17):
4. ATL has five parallel runways.

That helps, but the reason I did not include that was because other airports that have less traffic have more airports. DFW has seven runways - all non-intersecting - and yet is a smaller airport (by traffic) than Atlanta.

One reason that DFW will never touch ATL stats is that DFW has passenger competition from DAL, IAH and HOU.

Though IAH and HOU are 224 and 247 miles away from DFW - they serve the same RJ region as DFW. ATL only has competition from CLT in that size area.

And there are a heck of a lot more people and small cities with RJ/TP service that close to ATL than there are between DFW-HOU-SAT.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2009-08-05 06:15:58 and read 24366 times.



Quoting AADC10 (Reply 26):
ATL has beaten ORD the last decade or so because it has a better runway layout and more gates, along with slightly better weather. If ORD built more gates and completes its new runways than it could reclaim the title, assuming anyone would actually want it.

Actually, ORD could handle more flights than ATL, if the airlines chose to put enough traffic in. Remember that several years ago, the FAA asked AA and UA to cut their departures by 5%. AA had just moved a lot of STL's traffic to ORD, and UA had shifted flying to RJs, requiring more departures.

When that didn't cut down the delays, the FAA mandated that all airlines cut their schedules and imposed an operations cap. I don't remember the number off the top of my head, but it was less than 100 arrivals per hour during the 6am to 8pm range.

AA initially moved some of its flying to DFW, and I would assume that UA shifted some flying elsewhere.

The operations cap was dropped last November, when the 3rd east-west runway opened, but with the economy, no one is adding significant amounts of flying.

You are correct that gate space is an issue. About 10 years ago, the City of Chicago had a plan to renovate T2 into an international terminal for UA/Star, build a new T4 for AA international/onwworld, and a new T6 for all domestic carriers other than AA/UA. The plan fizzled in the wake of 9/11 and the airlines being short of cash to pay for the project.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2009-08-05 06:36:20 and read 24038 times.

One of the things which has helped ATL a lot is the RJ/TP hub concept.

Back when I was young - almost everyone from my home town area flew to DAL to make connections. It was simple - one or two stops to DAL, else four or five stops to ATL.

ATL-MGM(or BHM)-MEI-JAN-MLU-SHV-DAL was a busy route, but everyone hated the multiple stops.

Now each of those six cities is served direct to ATL, and many direct to DFW and IAH and occasionally other cities.

While this has helped increase air travel overall - the greatest increase is in traffic to ATL.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2009-08-05 06:48:43 and read 23876 times.



Quoting Lexy (Reply 32):
Construction is ongoing with the new international terminal. The sixth runway? I don't see that happening anytime soon. That new 5th bad boy isn't used nearly as much as the other four. Part of that is the economy and capacity cuts, but also the taxi times and hold times form it are just rediculous.

Oh yeah most definitely I see the progress on a daily basis when im coming into work. It looks like a giant spider with many legs when you are coming in on the access road LOL. God I hate landing on the 5th sometimes because it takes forever to taxi in if you are coming in during major push times because you have to cross the other 2 active runways. I wish they had that loop taxi way at the end that connected to the taxiways and by passed the need to have to cross the runways. like they do on the 8s side I believe.

Atl is not running at the top of its capacity either. There is alot more capacity that airport can push its just the economy will not quite allow for that at the moment.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DuckRedbeard
Posted 2009-08-05 06:51:08 and read 23835 times.



Quoting CYXUK (Reply 11):
I can't remember where, but I once heard that 55% of PAX through ATL are connecting to other destinations

Are you considering those who drive from BHM or CHA or SAV to ATL? Technically they are connecting through, just not flying to their real final destinations.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2009-08-05 07:03:30 and read 23662 times.



Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 8):
If you look at Census Bureau Urban Areas, Detroit is larger.

That's a ridiculous and irrelevant way of looking at things. It's like measuring the city of Chicago but specifically excluding the 60 or so suburbs they surround it about 40 miles deep in 3 directions. When talking about metro areas, you always use the MSA or CMSA figures.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I really cannot imagine that there is a popular destination you can only get to from JFK, LGA or EWR through ATL. I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

Again... a ridiculous statement. What about the people all over the country who may view the NY area as a "popular destination"? There are hundreds of destinations in the country that need to get to NY somehow - and there are no direct flights from Pocatello, ID to New York, are there? Depending on where are flying from to get to NY, most of the time you are going to be connecting somewhere. If you just happen to be flying Delta, you are most likely going to do it via ATL.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 36):
Actually, ORD could handle more flights than ATL, if the airlines chose to put enough traffic in. Remember that several years ago, the FAA asked AA and UA to cut their departures by 5%.

I was under the impression that the FAA cut them back specifically because ORD couldn't handle that volume.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2009-08-05 07:06:52 and read 23625 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 14):
The old saying in the Southeast US is that when you die, you will have to change planes in Atlanta whether you are going to heaven or hell.

LOL, isn't that the truth? Almost everytime I fly now to/from DFW-BOS, I go through ATL, as I almost always fly DL. I don't like flying AA, even with DFW-BOS direct flights. Sometimes I take NW (now DL) through MSP. I use to always fly on TZ to/from DFW-MDW-BOS. Now TZ is out of business.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
Quoting MD-90 (Reply 17):
4. ATL has five parallel runways.

That helps, but the reason I did not include that was because other airports that have less traffic have more airports. DFW has seven runways - all non-intersecting - and yet is a smaller airport (by traffic) than Atlanta.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 35):
One reason that DFW will never touch ATL stats is that DFW has passenger competition from DAL, IAH and HOU.

Though IAH and HOU are 224 and 247 miles away from DFW - they serve the same RJ region as DFW. ATL only has competition from CLT in that size area.

And there are a heck of a lot more people and small cities with RJ/TP service that close to ATL than there are between DFW-HOU-SAT.

To put thing into prospective, DFW is about #5 in the world today (passenger and daily flight count). DFW does between 55M and 60M pax per year and a daily flight ops count between 2,000 and 2,200. When DL had a hub at DFW a few years ago, DFW, ATL, and ORD would often change the #1 airport slot, with ORD usually in front. Now that DL isn't a major player at DFW that has reduced DFW to the #5 slot.

DFW's main compitition in Texas isn't DAL, HOU, SAT, or IAD. It is AUS. DAL is the WN hub and will remain that way for a long time. Almost no one wants to drive 5-6 hours to Houston or San Antonio to then fly, but the 3 hour drive to Austin for cheaper air fares does work for many in the Metroplex. It is not unusual for someone to drive to AUS, then fly back to DFW and onto their destination and save half the air fare, even on AA. DFW has some of the highest air fares in the US because AA is 80% of the flying business at DFW.

Now, neither DFW or ORD will ever have the #1 slot again until they both reduce AA presence and change the terminal types. Both arte still harder to get around from terminal to terminal than ATL is. Pluss ATL still has "smoker's rooms" where somone who smokes (still about 35% of the US) can light up between flights. At DFW, ORD, BOS, and most other airports you have to go outside to smoke, and that means dealing with the TSA, again.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-08-05 07:08:20 and read 23603 times.



Quoting JetBlue777 (Thread starter):
Atlanta is not as heavily populated like cities such as New York, Los Angeles or Tokyo. I know those three cities has more than one major airports.

The NYC area has much more traffic than ATL, but when it gets split up among 3+ airports, the individual numbers come out to be much less. LAX is probably much the same way, though it doesn't have as much traffic as NYC. Because of trains and by virtue of being much smaller, Japan doesn't have the level of domestic traffic that the US does, which leads to there being less flights for TYO's airports.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 6):
The big question is whether O'hare will ever pass Atlanta up again.

It certainly could, if they get the new runways and the west terminal built.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I really cannot imagine that there is a popular destination you can only get to from JFK, LGA or EWR through ATL.

DAB, EYW, PNS

Let's also not discount the people in ALB, BTV, HFD, SYR, etc. ATL is well-positioned for traffic from there to Florida.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

I've done it several times.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 29):
For us in the Northeast, ATL is a very poor connecting place for going anywhere other than, well, the South

It's actually not bad if you're going to anywhere in the southern half of the US, including places like LAX, PHX, TUS, etc. It's certainly not as optimal as ORD or MSP or DEN, but it's not as out of the way as some seem to think. EWR-ATL-LAX, for instance, is only 250 miles longer than EWR-ORD-LAX, which amounts to maybe 45 minutes extra travel time - hardly what I'd consider "very poor". Yes, I know you could fly EWR-LAX nonstop, but that's just an example.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: AAflyguy
Posted 2009-08-05 07:56:08 and read 23022 times.

36% O & D equates to about 32,400,000, as last year ATL handled just over 90,000,000 passengers. That is a HUGE raw number! That 2/3 of the traffic is connecting seems to be overlooking the fact that the share of O&D represents a major number of passengers, and that it dwarfs or nearly matches the total number of passengers a lot of other large hub airports generate. In Nov, ATL will be opening an 8,700 space Consolidated Rental Car Center, as it is the 4th largest car rental market in the U.S. Here's the new page on the Airport's website which talks all about the project: http://www.atlanta-airport.com/RentalCarCenter - think it just debuted this week, so lots of good info to read up on.

As many have pointed out, ATL's population continues to swell, to about 5.6 Million today and surpassing 6 Million in the next 5-years unless the economy causes the rise to drag and slow significantly. With just one airport, as the area grows, so will demand for air travel, and the total number of passengers will continue to rise. Delta has about 70% of the ATL market, while AirTran is at 20%, clearly ATL owes its volume of seats to those two carriers. And, when the East Terminal and its 12-gates come online in 2012, there will be even more gate capacity to grow service, as those gates will serve both domestic and international flights, same as Conc E does today. I've only landed on the 5th runway once, but the taxi into the gate was exactly 10-minutes. We were cleared across both 9's pretty quickly, so that helped a lot. There are plans to build an end-around taxiway on the west side of the 9's but that is part of the runway extension proposal for 9L/27R, I believe. I've also landed on that new northernmost runway @ ORD, and that was ridiculous in taxi time. Though we never stopped, it was 15-minutes before we reached the terminal to pull into the gate.

The talk about other metro areas having more than one airport is interesting, especially because cities such as Chicago, Dallas, and Houston built new airports farther away from town to grow into and kind of forgot about the former "primary" airport until airlines like Southwest and Midway appeared on the scene and revived those facilities. ATL, in contrast, has simply chosen to optimize the only commercial airport it's ever had, and it has more room to grow within its current 4,500 acre footprint. The 6th runway is going to be contentious because, to build it, ATL has to abandon plans for the South Terminal Complex, as the runway would be located between 9R/27L and 10/28. So, the analysis has to be an intense one. Which is needed more going forward: terminal/gate capacity or airfield capacity? They can't do both on the same piece of land. 5 parallel runways can handle a lot of traffic, even more if FAA radar technology ever improves to reduce spacing between operations, especially arrivals.

Anyway, nice discussion here. Enjoyed reading all of the input and opinions/ideas...

AAflyguy

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Conti764
Posted 2009-08-05 08:53:36 and read 22306 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
First, it is in the world's largest air market - by far - the United States. The U.S. domestic market dwarfs any other on earth, and is larger than most of the world's other major air markets combined.

For the moment :wink:

I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country...

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-05 08:57:55 and read 22255 times.



Quoting Conti764 (Reply 44):
I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country...

Which, even if they broke ground for the rail system, today, would take years to finish. Especially since those high speed trains will have to use their own, smoother tracks as opposed to using the ones that freight trains use now.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-05 09:19:08 and read 21930 times.



Quoting Conti764 (Reply 44):
I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country...

That's the difference between Europeans and us. We know our politicians are lying, you guys only suspect it.

Seriously, there are 2 major reasons why HS rail works well in European and some Asian markets, and not the USA.

1. Europe and Japan populations are much more concentrated around large city centers that are generally less than 1 days rail trip apart.

2. European and Japanese cities have extensive mass transit systems to reach the rail hubs.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: TheGMan
Posted 2009-08-05 09:39:58 and read 21600 times.



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 23):
But there are some trips I make (Ontario, CA; Greensboro, NC, etc) where I can connect or take a nonstop and drive 50-75 miles. Given that I'm 23 and don't like paying underage renters fees, I'll take the connection.

It seems you are only talking about the Delta network, but I know there are several LGA-GSO flights a day, and I am sure there is an ONT as well, probably from JFK.

Quoting Conti764 (Reply 44):
I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country...

Oh yeah, that is going to work well...

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Joeman
Posted 2009-08-05 09:54:32 and read 21380 times.

Because U.S. commercial air travel is primarly built on a "hub" model.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2009-08-05 10:23:29 and read 21021 times.



Quoting Lexy (Reply 32):
Construction is ongoing with the new international terminal. The sixth runway? I don't see that happening anytime soon. That new 5th bad boy isn't used nearly as much as the other four. Part of that is the economy and capacity cuts, but also the taxi times and hold times form it are just rediculous.

The 5th runway will be heavily utilized when the new South Terminal is built.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Lexy
Posted 2009-08-05 10:26:46 and read 20966 times.



Quoting Conti764 (Reply 44):
I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country...

There are a number of regional plans for high speed rail, the same you have in Europe, here in the states. Atlanta-Chattanooga-Nashville is one of those proposed routes. Money is the issue here. Lots of money. I don't know how you would know how "slow" they are and really what difference that would make? A very good understanding of the US infrastructure is really needed before we go down this road....

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2009-08-05 10:28:11 and read 20794 times.



Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 5):
DTW is I believe a larger metro city with only one airport (I can't count Detroit City). At least it's a larger metro area now, might not be for much longer.

You forgot Detroit Willow Run

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: AAflyguy
Posted 2009-08-05 11:03:10 and read 20396 times.

aaaaaaah, Willow Run! Now, the difference with that airport is Detroit built the replacement closer to the city. All of those other cities with newer and bigger airports built farther out. Willow is doing some charter activity, but nothing scheduled, and much more cargo business and GA/Corporate than anything. Something to see Willow almost as soon as you lift off the ground from Metro. It's only about 6-miles further west, I think.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: AndrewUber
Posted 2009-08-05 12:05:11 and read 19732 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
ATL is Delta's main hub that they built.

AirTran's hub is in ATL as well, and at 240+ flights daily, they are a considerable presence at Hartsfield.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2009-08-05 12:33:48 and read 19430 times.



Quoting Conti764 (Reply 44):
I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country...

Unfortunately the comparison with Europe is not a good one as Europe has a higher overall density of population making any where outside the NE corridor for high speed rail unattractive financially. With larger distances and a more spread out population, air travel is bar far still the most preferred method of travel.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Jetmatt777
Posted 2009-08-05 13:02:05 and read 19124 times.

It definitely helps having two hubs: one fortress hub (Delta); large domestic (AirTran). Also, UPS and Fedex have decent cargo operations out of ATL.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-08-05 15:26:49 and read 17894 times.



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
When DL had a hub at DFW a few years ago, DFW, ATL, and ORD would often change the #1 airport slot

DFW was never in the running for #1 - that traded back and forth throughout the 1990s between ORD and ATL, but never DFW, which was always smaller than either of those two.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
Now that DL isn't a major player at DFW that has reduced DFW to the #5 slot.

DFW has been around the #5 slot for a very, very long time - including back when Delta was there. DFW has sometimes traded places with another airport, but not ORD or ATL: but rather LAX. For example, DFW has recently eclipsed LAX again.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
DFW's main compitition in Texas isn't DAL, HOU, SAT, or IAD. It is AUS.



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
but the 3 hour drive to Austin for cheaper air fares does work for many in the Metroplex. It is not unusual for someone to drive to AUS, then fly back to DFW and onto their destination and save half the air fare

I'm not sure if you have anything available, but I would like to see some statistics on that, because I highly, highly doubt that there is any substantial leakage at all from the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex down to AUS. From my experience, there are very, very few people willing to drive all the way down to Austin to fly out - three hours on I-35 would definitely dissuade me.

Anecdotal, I understand, but I have lived in Dallas/Fort Worth and Austin for pretty much my entire life, and I have never seen any evidence whatsoever of any major leakage from one to the other. Never.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
Now, neither DFW or ORD will ever have the #1 slot again until they both reduce AA presence and change the terminal types.

I don't think DFW's traffic would grow substantially by ditching AA, since AA moves a massive amount of capacity through DFW, and I really don't see how ORD would grow either by losing the massive AA hub.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
Both arte still harder to get around from terminal to terminal than ATL is.

I think that is quite debatable.

With SkyLink, I now find DFW to be one of the most effortless airports in America to move around and connect through - and I know lots of people who, after giving DFW another try post-SkyLink, feel the same way.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
is. Pluss ATL still has "smoker's rooms" where somone who smokes (still about 35% of the US) can light up between flights.

I highly doubt that the smoker's demographic is really tipping the scales all that dramatically between Atlanta and other competing hubs.

Quoting AAflyguy (Reply 43):
The talk about other metro areas having more than one airport is interesting, especially because cities such as Chicago, Dallas, and Houston built new airports farther away from town to grow into and kind of forgot about the former "primary" airport until airlines like Southwest and Midway appeared on the scene and revived those facilities.

Another important thing to note, though, is that while the larger international airports built in Chicago, Dallas, and Houston (and some other major U.S. cities) may be "farther away from town" - meaning the central towns named above - many of these airports are now actually right in the middle of the massive urban/suburban sprawl in those metro areas. Case in point: DFW may be further away from downtown Dallas than Love, but it is right, smack in the middle of the DFW Metroplex, and directly in the center of the downright massive sprawl that is the DFW Metroplex these days.

Quoting Conti764 (Reply 44):
I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country

If that ever happens - and I think that's a big if - it will not be for a long, long time. And even if it were to happen, it will have a negligible impact on air travel.

The reason?

High-speed rail simply does not work for the vast majority of the U.S. population. It works in Europe because the populations are more concentrated and the countries are tiny.

It takes me longer to drive across the DFW Metroplex then it would take to take a train across the entire country of Belgium. In that paradigm, high-speed rail would be completely useless except in a very few, small, examples where there is a large, dense, urban corridor. In the U.S., that means definitely the northeast (Boston-NY-Philly-DC), possibly the California corridor (SF-San Jose-LA-San Diego) and possibly the Texas triangle (DFW-Houston-Austin).

Beyond that, it will just never work. You will never get millions and millions of Americans to switch to rail travel for distances beyond probably 2-3 hours - tops (and even that, I think, is a stretch). It's just not worth it, since even the highest-speed rail is still not as speedy, at least for now, as a jet cruising at 35,000 feet.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 46):
That's the difference between Europeans and us. We know our politicians are lying, you guys only suspect it.

 bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2009-08-05 15:34:07 and read 17821 times.

I have a few postcards of ATL from the '60s and '70s. A bunch of them say ATL is the busiest from 11am-2pm.

Can someone explain?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Farzan
Posted 2009-08-05 16:46:10 and read 17231 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
First, it is in the world's largest air market - by far - the United States. The U.S. domestic market dwarfs any other on earth, and is larger than most of the world's other major air markets combined.

Last part of your statement is amazing if true. Would you mind substantiate with some numbers?

4.5% of the world population travels more domestically by air than all other world air markets combined? And that on a continent which could easily be served by trains (if the infrastructure was there), it is environmental madness I would say.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-08-05 17:06:17 and read 17061 times.



Quoting Farzan (Reply 58):
Last part of your statement is amazing if true. Would you mind substantiate with some numbers?

I was definitely exaggerating. I should have said that it is larger than "many" other major air markets combined, not "most."

But yes, the U.S. domestic market does, indeed, dwarf all other domestic (and most international) markets in size, and accounts for a huge chunk of global air transportation.

In the U.S., there were about 808 million passengers in 2008, of which about 660 million had an itinerary with only solely domestic segments. Worldwide, it's probably 4-5 billion. Don't know the exact numbers globally. So, depending on how you slice the numbers, that's roughly 15-20% of the world's air passengers in a country with - as you say - about 4.5% of the world's population.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 58):
And that on a continent which could easily be served by trains (if the infrastructure was there)

This continent cannot easily - or even difficultly - be served by trains. It's just not possible. Or, I should say, it is possible, but not economically viable in the slightest. This continent is simply too large and its population is simply too disbursed to ever make long-distance train travel a sustainable form of mass-market transportation. It's just not feasible. It works in tiny European countries with a few million people at most. In a country larger than most of continental Europe combined, with over 300 million people, it is simply not going to happen.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 58):
it is environmental madness I would say.

Many would say that wasting billions of dollars of wealth trying to correcting a problem that doesn't exist is also madness.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2009-08-05 17:49:10 and read 16755 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 59):
Quoting Farzan (Reply 58):
And that on a continent which could easily be served by trains (if the infrastructure was there)

This continent cannot easily - or even difficultly - be served by trains.

The infrastructure simply is not present. For most of the nation, it will have to be built from scratch.

The US is served by a very active, very highly utilized rail system. Billions of tons of freight are moved every day. This system is not compatible with high speed passenger transport. It is barely functional with low speed passenger rail.

The rail system is strained to the breaking point now. Just to meet our freight transportation demands, tens of billions of dollars need to be invested over the next decade. This will almost all be necessary to be private funds from the rail industry funded by the consumers in higher transportation costs.

It will also be a windfall to the surface trucking industry as rail rates increase to cover the costs.

Many people forget the geography of the US and its significant impact upon rail.

We have a mountain range in the east which rivals the Alps for grade and difficulty of crossing for rail. Though it streatches for 1200 mile / 1900 km.

We have a river which divides the nation down the center. A river with only 6 single track rail crossings for over 600 miles / 1000 km.

We have a mountain range in the west which would stretch from Warsaw to London in Europe. There are exactly four rail routes across those mountains. The two northern routes would never be suitable to real high speed rail.

Our mountains are largely unsuitable for tunnels due to their grade components and the realtivy active fault lines.

Could it be done - yes.

It would certainly cost more than building the current airport / airline system over from scratch.

There are many places where high speed passenger rail could be useful and eventually efficient. But not across the great distances of the country.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Farzan
Posted 2009-08-05 18:27:46 and read 16485 times.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 59):
I was definitely exaggerating. I should have said that it is larger than "many" other major air markets combined, not "most."

OK I was also exaggerating, when saying the the US could "easily" be covered by trains  Wink

But still like stated by RFields, cross US passenger rail travel is probably never going to happen to any significant extent. For other short to medium travel between major US cities, why not?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Lexy
Posted 2009-08-05 18:50:37 and read 16334 times.



Quoting Farzan (Reply 61):
For other short to medium travel between major US cities, why not?

It already is here. The northeast corridor has rail, and like I said above, other city pairs are looking into the rail options. Cost is a big issue here due to any number of factors. Plus, a big majority of the US is still rural. You really need density to make rail work in an enviroment like this country.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Thegeek
Posted 2009-08-05 18:58:52 and read 16297 times.



Quoting Lexy (Reply 62):
The northeast corridor has rail,

While that is true, it is only marginally technically superior to the rail between BNE & ROK!  duck 

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Lexy
Posted 2009-08-05 19:21:27 and read 16252 times.



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 63):
While that is true, it is only marginally technically superior to the rail between BNE & ROK!

Well, that is because most of the pax trains in this country share the track with cargo/freight trains. It's no secret that the rail infrastructure in this poor country is pathetic for the most part. I would love to see them really put some effort into making it better but I digress.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-05 20:42:36 and read 16129 times.



Quoting Lexy (Reply 64):
Well, that is because most of the pax trains in this country share the track with cargo/freight trains. It's no secret that the rail infrastructure in this poor country is pathetic for the most part. I would love to see them really put some effort into making it better but I digress.

Surprisingly enough, the pax rail system along the Wasatch Front in Utah, Frontrunner, is using the Union Pacific right of way from Salt Lake City to Ogden, but has its own track, but the UP and it share the track to the northern terminus at Pleasant View. I further extension is planned, south to Provo.

That's the biggest problem with high speed rail, or even medium speed, as Frontrunner is.......they, for the most part, can't share the rails with the freight trains as those rails would not handle those speeds. As I said, before, to have a nationwide, high speed rail system, you would have to lay all new track for those trains, a monumental undertaking.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-08-05 21:09:17 and read 16106 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 14):

 checkmark 
A look at the Population Map would help too. That state South of Georgia - Florida - is the fourth most populated state in the US, and the easiest place to funnel most of that traffic is ATL. Once you consider North Carolina, Florida, and Georgia, never mind the rest of the South, you're talking a significant chunk of the US's population.

Other reasons: Other airlines spread out their operations. Delta funnels a lot through ATL. You fly American from the East Coast to the West Coast, you may go through ORD one time, and DFW another. But with DL, you're almost certainly going through ATL.

ATL itself is a much larger market than a lot of people realize. Last I checked, ATL was the 9th largest metro area in the US.

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 55):
It definitely helps having two hubs: one fortress hub (Delta); large domestic (AirTran). Also, UPS and Fedex have decent cargo operations out of ATL.

And ATL is a large enough market that the other carriers (usually) operate decent schedules to their hubs.

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
It's actually not bad if you're going to anywhere in the southern half of the US, including places like LAX, PHX, TUS, etc. It's certainly not as optimal as ORD or MSP or DEN, but it's not as out of the way as some seem to think. EWR-ATL-LAX, for instance, is only 250 miles longer than EWR-ORD-LAX, which amounts to maybe 45 minutes extra travel time - hardly what I'd consider "very poor". Yes, I know you could fly EWR-LAX nonstop, but that's just an example.

One time I posted it to prove a point, despite coming up on it by chance, but if you fly SAT-DFW-LGA, its the exact same mileage as SAT-ATL-LGA. When you consider the population size from Texas, following along the coast on up to the Northeast, it makes sense why a lot of people are funneled through ATL.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2009-08-05 21:39:04 and read 16039 times.



Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 40):
I was under the impression that the FAA cut them back specifically because ORD couldn't handle that volume.

The FAA operations cap was lifted in November of last year with the opening of the 3rd east-west runway.

ORD could handle nearly 1 million operations per year before the new runway opened, provided the weather was clear, the winds were light, and ATC could set an optimal configuration for arrivals and departures.

But ATL passed ORD before it opened the 5th runway on the south side of the field.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DeltAirlines
Posted 2009-08-05 22:10:21 and read 16006 times.



Quoting TheGMan (Reply 47):

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 23):
But there are some trips I make (Ontario, CA; Greensboro, NC, etc) where I can connect or take a nonstop and drive 50-75 miles. Given that I'm 23 and don't like paying underage renters fees, I'll take the connection.

It seems you are only talking about the Delta network, but I know there are several LGA-GSO flights a day, and I am sure there is an ONT as well, probably from JFK.

The context was around MSP and taking a nonstop to an alternate (larger) city and then driving. I'm saying for most of my own travels (I live in MSP), I can get that nonstop - but for some trips, I can't. Same is true out of NYC.

As for LGA-GSO, I wish DL would bring that back. I refuse to fly US Airways anymore, and am routing over Atlanta for a LGA-GSO one-way I'm doing in October to stay on Delta rather than deal with US Airways. Would have done Continental out of EWR, but was much more expensive...

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Luckyone
Posted 2009-08-05 22:51:34 and read 15964 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
Japan doesn't have the level of domestic traffic that the US does, which leads to there being less flights for TYO's airports.

Tokyo Haneda airport was the fourth busiest airport in the world in 2008, behind Atlanta, O'Hare, and Heathrow.

Quoting AAflyguy (Reply 43):
In Nov, ATL will be opening an 8,700 space Consolidated Rental Car Center, as it is the 4th largest car rental market in the U.S.

Well that's due to two factors 1) the aforementioned sole airport things, and 2) almost total lack of a viable public transportation system outside The Perimeter, and an almost useless one inside The Perimeter...

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 46):
Seriously, there are 2 major reasons why HS rail works well in European and some Asian markets, and not the USA.

1. Europe and Japan populations are much more concentrated around large city centers that are generally less than 1 days rail trip apart.

2. European and Japanese cities have extensive mass transit systems to reach the rail hubs.

Bingo!

Quoting Commavia (Reply 59):
This continent is simply too large and its population is simply too disbursed to ever make long-distance train travel a sustainable form of mass-market transportation. It's just not feasible.

Since when was the United States a continent  Wink

It is almost impossible to justifiably and rationally (key words there) build a high-speed rail system in the United States with the population as spread out as it is. Outside of the Northeast and California the major cities are just too far apart from each other, and needless to say the Northeast and California...well, would you want to spend at the least an entire day when you could fly across the country in a fraction of that time?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-08-06 00:14:26 and read 15863 times.



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 67):
But ATL passed ORD before it opened the 5th runway on the south side of the field.

ATL made it past ORD in 2005ish range. This is when Delta made a big push out of Atlanta. With 4 runways Delta had close 1300 flights a day during this time.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Farzan
Posted 2009-08-06 03:19:55 and read 15765 times.

Stupid question, but here it goes.

Here at a-net everybody are always claiming that the the future of air travel is point to point, with suitable sized aircraft's. Not via hubs.

If this is true, how will that affect ATL with presently 2/3 of it's travelers being connecting passengers?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-08-06 04:38:37 and read 15667 times.



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 69):
Since when was the United States a continent

Since that's the statement that Farzan originally made, that I was responding to.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 71):
Here at a-net everybody are always claiming that the the future of air travel is point to point, with suitable sized aircraft's. Not via hubs.

Who is saying that?

I don't believe that for one second, and I don't think a lot of people do here on A.net or elsewhere. The people who say that, in my opinion, are people who - frankly - don't know what they're talking about.

The hub-and-spoke model will remain the dominant form of air transportation network design for the foreseeable future for the same reason that it has dominated the U.S. air travel market since deregulation: because it works.

There's a reason why virtually every single U.S. airline - yes, definitely including Southwest - uses the hub-and-spoke model: because it remains today by far the most efficient means of distributing large amounts of people from many points to many other points.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-08-06 05:00:08 and read 15639 times.



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 46):
1. Europe and Japan populations are much more concentrated around large city centers that are generally less than 1 days rail trip apart.
2. European and Japanese cities have extensive mass transit systems to reach the rail hubs.

I'll give you #2, but not #1.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 69):
It is almost impossible to justifiably and rationally (key words there) build a high-speed rail system in the United States with the population as spread out as it is.

Nonesense. Most people think that way because when they visit Europe they never go beyond the big cities like Paris, London, Rome, and such. Europe is far more densely populated than the US is. There's hardly any space in Western Europe where there isn't a town or a vilage.
The reason why Europe and Japan have HSR and good supporting public transportation systems is becuase [Europe especially] there's been a long term political focus on getting people out of cars and into public transportation whereas in the US it's exactly the opposite. That is why they pay $10/Gal for gas. Public transportation and HSR in Europe and Japan did not happen overnight, it's been happening for decades. In a way, HHSR in the US would be a lot easier to build because we are not as densely populated. Even the Northeast is not as bad as Japan so the cost of land aquisition which is typically the most expensive component, wouldn't be as high.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-06 06:18:10 and read 15513 times.

Downtown LA or Miami at night is not the place for most people.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 71):
Here at a-net everybody are always claiming that the the future of air travel is point to point, with suitable sized aircraft's. Not via hubs.

You misunderstand the Point-to-Point concept, as ennumerated by Boeing.

It is not that Hubs will be eliminated.

Airbus' A380 was designed around flying between major Hubs, and Boeing used this as a Hub-to-Hub model. The Hub-to-Hub model has large O&D populations travelling between them, plus alot of people making single connections, plus alot of people making double connections.

The Boeing Point-to-Point concept has a smaller market of huge planes (VLAs) making the Hub-to-Hub flights, and those making single or double connections bypassing at least one of the major Hubs. To illustrate, the Hub-to-Hub model for a person flying from MOB to NCE would be MOB-ATL-CDG-NCE, where the Point-to-Point would see MOB-ATL-NCE or MOB-JFK-NCE, using a bit smaller of TATL aircraft and bypassing one of the Hubs.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Conti764
Posted 2009-08-06 06:38:55 and read 15455 times.



Quoting Lexy (Reply 50):
I don't know how you would know how "slow" they are and really what difference that would make? A very good understanding of the US infrastructure is really needed before we go down this road....

I've red it in a local newspaper and the speed was indicated next to each line. It was between 150 and 200 kph on average, which is slow, considering normal intercity trains in Belgium ride at least 160 kph. At least it is to slow to compete with air travel.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-06 07:39:42 and read 15383 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 73):
Quoting Luckyone (Reply 69):
It is almost impossible to justifiably and rationally (key words there) build a high-speed rail system in the United States with the population as spread out as it is.

Nonesense. Most people think that way because when they visit Europe they never go beyond the big cities like Paris, London, Rome, and such. Europe is far more densely populated than the US is. There's hardly any space in Western Europe where there isn't a town or a vilage.

Isn't that what Luckyone is saying?


The only way that HSR would work in the U.S. is between major population centers that were reasonably close to each other. Taking a HSR from Chicago to St. Louis might make sense at 150 mph or higher as it would only be about a 1 hour trip or a little more, BUT, even at 200 mph, would you want to spend more than 15 hours from Chicago to Los Angeles? I doubt it, unless you were on vacation, but I wouldn't think the business traveller would put up with that.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: AAflyguy
Posted 2009-08-06 07:47:51 and read 15390 times.

ATL's position as the 4th largest rental car market has nothing to do with having a single airport, it is the volume of O&D in the overall market needing to rent a car that matters. Even if there were two commercial airports, the ATL area would likely still hold that title in the rental car category. As to the claim of having an almost useless transit system ITP, that's up for debate, as MARTA does go directly through Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, and up to the top of the Perimeter (Sandy Springs). Those are all major business centers, and otherwise heavily populated. There are a lot of visitors who do take MARTA if they're going to these parts of town and have no need for personal transportation while in the city, or residents who would rather hop the train than fight the sometimes bottleneck traffic and act of finding parking once at the airport. MARTA may not be what everyone thinks it should or wants it to be, but I would not call it useless. Whenever I've taken the North/South subway line, there's always plenty of luggage toters, clearly coming from or going to Hartsfield. There are many reasons why the rail system isn't more expansive than what exists today, but that's an entirely different discussion. And, I'd agrue that even a farther reaching subway network would not impact the rental car market very much at all. Metro Atlanta's huge footprint requires most to have a car to get around, period, and that's not going to change in the near future, if ever.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-06 08:05:34 and read 15332 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 73):
I'll give you #2, but not #1.

About a third of Japan's population is in the five most populous prefectures (roughly analogous to US Counties). Less than 10% of the US population lives in the five most populous counties, and if you look at MSAs, the five larges MSAs comprise somewhere between 15 and 20 percent of the US population.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 73):
Even the Northeast is not as bad as Japan so the cost of land aquisition which is typically the most expensive component, wouldn't be as high.

There's not a whole lot of need for land acquisition in the northeast. There are four things that keep Acela from going faster

1) Crashworthiness standards mean that Acela rolling stock is quite a bit heavier than HSR rolling stock in the rest of the world

2) Metro North doesn't allow body lean on any track it owns (New Haven to New Rochelle, roughly)

3) Deficient cantenary in a couple of areas

4) Grade crossings in eastern Connecticut

The latter two of these can be fixed relatively inexpensively (as these things go), and the cost to fix the first two would be almost zero.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2009-08-06 08:09:17 and read 15324 times.



Quoting Farzan (Reply 71):
Here at a-net everybody are always claiming that the the future of air travel is point to point, with suitable sized aircraft's. Not via hubs.

It is logistically impossible to replace the hub system completely. The combinatorial explosion of the number of planes and flights required would be astounding.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: GSPSPOT
Posted 2009-08-06 17:25:36 and read 14959 times.



Quoting JetBlue777 (Thread starter):
First of all, Atlanta is not as heavily populated like cities such as New York, Los Angeles or Tokyo. I know those three cities has more than one major airports. Where do most people that use ATL come from? Atlanta is not that heavily populated so it always puzzles me why its the busiest airport in the world.

Why's the sky blue? Apparently, that's the way God wants it.... Happily or unhappily.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Farzan
Posted 2009-08-06 17:35:56 and read 14947 times.



Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 79):
It is logistically impossible to replace the hub system completely. The combinatorial explosion of the number of planes and flights required would be astounding.

I agree, that's why it was a stupid question.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 72):
Who is saying that?

Here is one

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 74):
Airbus' A380 was designed around flying between major Hubs, and Boeing used this as a Hub-to-Hub model. The Hub-to-Hub model has large O&D populations travelling between them, plus alot of people making single connections, plus alot of people making double connections.

The Boeing Point-to-Point concept has a smaller market of huge planes (VLAs) making the Hub-to-Hub flights, and those making single or double connections bypassing at least one of the major Hubs. To illustrate, the Hub-to-Hub model for a person flying from MOB to NCE would be MOB-ATL-CDG-NCE, where the Point-to-Point would see MOB-ATL-NCE or MOB-JFK-NCE, using a bit smaller of TATL aircraft and bypassing one of the Hubs.

No, I do not really misunderstand Boeings point to point concept. I believe the concept is very attractive for a lot of travellers, but being a frequent traveller myself it will make no difference for me. Analyzing my departure and final destinations since many years clearly shows that in 95% of all cases 3 flights are needed to get there. Point - hub - hub - point.

Using your example but change NCE to GOT will show you what I mean. I don't expect any US airline to fly into GOT (second largest airport in Sweden) in my lifetime. In the opposite direction I don't see any airlines operating Europe - MOB non-stop.

It is possible to imagine smaller planes than VLA's could begin operating point to point flights as in your example, and it will cut one segment for many travellers, but for most people, like me, 3 segments will still be required. As such I think that both the Boeing and the VLA concept will have a future.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-06 18:13:23 and read 14908 times.



Quoting Farzan (Reply 81):
Using your example but change NCE to GOT will show you what I mean. I don't expect any US airline to fly into GOT (second largest airport in Sweden) in my lifetime. In the opposite direction I don't see any airlines operating Europe - MOB non-stop.

We could see a ATL-GOT or JFK-GOT flight sometime in the future. Or if we change MOB (MOB is really very small) to PIT (no one's hub similar and in size to GOT). You could fly PIT-CDG-GOT. Similarly for Boston (also not a hub) BOS-AMS-GOT.

Most travellers have a large city with an international airport on at least one end of their journey, and can connect into an international hub at the other end.

That's the theory. The trend for the last 20 years has been smaller planes with more frequency to more destinations. We'll see if it reverses itself with the introduction of the new generation of VLAs.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: 474218
Posted 2009-08-06 18:36:51 and read 14867 times.



Quoting AAflyguy (Reply 77):
ATL's position as the 4th largest rental car market has nothing to do with having a single airport, it is the volume of O&D in the overall market needing to rent a car that matters.

Having lived in the Atlanta area for many years I know why it is the 4th largest rental car market. It's because most of the people don't know how to drive and they are hundreds of traffic accidents dally.

I drove in the Los Angles area for 28 years zero (0) accidents. Moved to Atlanta and in 14 years of driving I have had three (3) accidents, all the other persons fault (rear end collisions).

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: BooDog
Posted 2009-08-06 18:38:08 and read 14852 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 78):
3) Deficient cantenary in a couple of areas

when it comes to trains, i'm listening to the person who knows what "cantenary" is.  Smile

BTW, we need to be careful. we're straying from the topic of the post.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Farzan
Posted 2009-08-06 18:47:37 and read 14844 times.



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 82):
We could see a ATL-GOT or JFK-GOT flight sometime in the future. Or if we change MOB (MOB is really very small) to PIT (no one's hub similar and in size to GOT). You could fly PIT-CDG-GOT. Similarly for Boston (also not a hub) BOS-AMS-GOT.

Sounds quite reasonable. except that SAS tried GOT-JFK back when GOT was opened, and it did not last very long. The routing was actually CPH-GOT-JFK operated by a 747 combi. (yes a second CPH-JFK flight in addition to SK911/912).

Anyway, back to ATL. When more international point to point flights is a reality, it surely must affect airports like ATL. It is not only US domestic travelers there are funneled through ATL, lots of Europeans traveling to the Southern part of the US are connecting in ATL today.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Thegeek
Posted 2009-08-06 19:39:33 and read 14763 times.



Quoting Farzan (Reply 85):
Sounds quite reasonable. except that SAS tried GOT-JFK back when GOT was opened,

That was so long ago that I don't think it really counters the suggestion. Although this route (and ATL-GOT) could easily have been done by a 767, so it's not clear why someone would suddenly want to try it. On the other hand, it seems like a pretty reasonable route.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2009-08-07 05:28:04 and read 14550 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 78):
There's not a whole lot of need for land acquisition in the northeast. There are four things that keep Acela from going faster

But you continue to make the same wrong assumption, which is HSR should use existing rail corridors. Even if you fix all those 4 points you still can't have real 200-300km/h high speed trains on those tracks. You can only do that buy building new, dedicated track to support those speeds, or significantly improve the existing ones which would still cost a bundle of money and likely require land aquisition for things like rerouting the track in some areas and widening of the turn radiuses.
For the train to be and alternative to the airplane, the ideal HSR travel time is 2-3 hours. You can't do 2-3 hours between Boston and NYC with 1 or 2 stops along the way at a mere 90mph. Even at 125mph if allowed on the entire track would likely take longer than 3 hours to travel between Boston and NYC. On top of that there's the issue of getting to/from the train station. Have you ever tried to find parking in Boston near South Station?  Smile At least at the airport you know you'll have parking.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-07 05:55:17 and read 14537 times.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 85):
Anyway, back to ATL. When more international point to point flights is a reality, it surely must affect airports like ATL. It is not only US domestic travelers there are funneled through ATL, lots of Europeans traveling to the Southern part of the US are connecting in ATL today.

Yes, quite right.

ATL is the epitome of the point to point concept. The largest airport in the world with only 3 (?)VLA flights per day (DL 744s to NRT and HNL plus KE 744 to ICN). Expanding, but with no plans to upgrade to accept the newest and biggest VLA. A few international multiple flights per day routes (CDG, AMS, others ?), then alot of single flights per day to alot of different destinations ( flying to the other european hubs, but mostly overflying the European hubs).

This allows most Europeans living near an ATL served international airport (probably more than half of Europe) single connection service to the entire Southeast, mid Atlantic, and Western USA.

[Edited 2009-08-07 05:58:05]

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-07 07:45:28 and read 14410 times.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 87):
Even if you fix all those 4 points you still can't have real 200-300km/h high speed trains on those tracks.

You can easily get to 200 km/h (which Acela comes pretty close to in places now), and 300 km/h isn't out of the question.

The cost-benefit calculus STRONGLY favors the existing corridor in the northeast. A new build corridor would cut 10 to 15 minutes off of New York-Boston. Bear in mind that a new corridor would not avoid many of the really slow points, such as the tunnels into and out of Penn Station.

...and that brings us back to airports, and ATL in particular. There's a lot of pretty low-hanging fruit to pick with HSR in the States, and even after that fruit is picked, there are plenty of traffic flows that will be unable to use HSR. They'll have to fly. The US and Canada are the only developed countries where this is the case, and as a result, both will continue to have outsized domestic markets for the foreseeable future.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: A340Jamaica
Posted 2009-08-07 21:38:53 and read 14025 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 60):

Many people forget the geography of the US and its significant impact upon rail.

We have a mountain range in the east which rivals the Alps for grade and difficulty of crossing for rail. Though it streatches for 1200 mile / 1900 km.

We have a river which divides the nation down the center. A river with only 6 single track rail crossings for over 600 miles / 1000 km.

We have a mountain range in the west which would stretch from Warsaw to London in Europe. There are exactly four rail routes across those mountains. The two northern routes would never be suitable to real high speed rail.

Our mountains are largely unsuitable for tunnels due to their grade components and the realtivy active fault lines.

The geography of Europe re Mountains is just as difficult if not more so for rail crossing. Read up on the engineering feat of the 1890's Gotthard Line and the ongoing work of the Gotthard Base High Speed Line for example to understand that the Rockies can be handled and the Appalachians are a positive joke if the US get serious about rail.


Air will always have a place in a country the size of the US. However, there are many regional corridors that are suitable for higher speed rail service.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-07 21:42:58 and read 14012 times.



Quoting A340Jamaica (Reply 90):
However, there are many regional corridors that are suitable for higher speed rail service.

There are maybe six. Let's not overstate it.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: A340Jamaica
Posted 2009-08-07 21:56:05 and read 13994 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 91):

There are maybe six. Let's not overstate it

Six is a number I would define as many especially when those six routes are covering areas like Intra-California, Intra-Texas, Midwest centered on Chicago, Intra-Florida, filling in the gaps in the NE and the Pacific Northwest. That is a sizable (> 40%) portion of the population and a sizable percentage of the traffic flows in the country. Those routes are feasible today if the political decision is made and will get more so as energy costs continue to rise. As stated air would continue to dominate for the areas not served and the longer routes.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-07 22:11:12 and read 14001 times.



Quoting A340Jamaica (Reply 92):
That is a sizable (> 40%) portion of the population and a sizable percentage of the traffic flows in the country.

Let's look at Chicago, where rail is not competitive today.

Here are the twenty largest markets, with number of passengers in Q208:

NYC 8950
LAS 4075
WAS 3914
LAX 3742
MCO 3508
DFW 3274
DEN 3207
ATL 3105
MSP 3071
PHX 3053
PHL 2959
BOS 2836
SFO 2556
TPA 2342
HOU 2318
DTW 2209
MCI 2214
BWI 2110
FLL 1967
STL 1878

Of these, three (Detroit, St. Louis, and Minneapolis) can clearly be covered by high-speed rail, and a fourth (Kansas City) is borderline. That leaves a heck of a lot of traffic...

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-08-07 22:45:17 and read 13969 times.



Quoting CYXUK (Reply 11):
I can't remember where, but I once heard that 55% of PAX through ATL are connecting to other destinations

closer to 60 and O&D is about 30 but that's pretty immense when you put things into pespectiv consiering that ATL handled roughly 90,000,000. Now, 30% of that...

People talk about ATL all the time and how there must be no money but there are truck loads of people considered as O&D.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 12):
I'd be surprised if it were that low of a number.

Close to it. See above.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 91):

 checkmark 

Quoting A340Jamaica (Reply 92):

...for a country with a population of almost 310,000,000 and as sprawling as it is i would have to agree that that low of anumber is not even worth the tax dollars. Then again, if the states want to fund it, sure why not. I don't see GA jumping in though, we can't even get a second airport up Big grin .

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: F9fan
Posted 2009-08-07 23:07:31 and read 13972 times.

Well, lets take a look at PNS. According to the The Pensacola Gulf Coast Airport's web site, you can fly non-stop from PNS to ATL, CLT, DFW, IAH, MEM, MCO, and TPA. If you don't want to fly a RJ, your only option is ATL. There are 2,808 seats available on weekdays from PNS, and of those, 1,691, or 60.2%, are to ATL.

There is another factor that may increase ATL's traffic. The military maintains a large presence in the southeast. I believe the Army now handles their basic training in S.C., and if you want to be a navy pilot, your training is at least partially at NAS.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 46):
Quoting Conti764 (Reply 44):
I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country...

That's the difference between Europeans and us. We know our politicians are lying, you guys only suspect it.

Seriously, there are 2 major reasons why HS rail works well in European and some Asian markets, and not the USA.

1. Europe and Japan populations are much more concentrated around large city centers that are generally less than 1 days rail trip apart.

2. European and Japanese cities have extensive mass transit systems to reach the rail hubs

There are more factors.

3. The price of gasoline is significantly cheaper in the U.S. than in Europe or Japan.

4. (somewhat related to 3) Taxes on owning and operating a car are much lower in the U.S. than in other countries.

5. During WWII, the railroads in the U.S. (which are privately owned) refused to give discounts to the military for transport of troops and goods. Well, when the supreme commander of allied forces during WWII was elected president, he created the interstate highway system so DoD didn't have to rely on the railroads.

6. The Great American Streetcar Scandal caused the elimination of intraurban railroads (in favor of busses) in several large cities. This resulted in the decimation of privately owned railroads. Now, almost all track in the U.S. is devoted to freight shipments. Passenger trains are subserviant to freight traffic on most rail networks in the U.S. today.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Farzan
Posted 2009-08-07 23:49:27 and read 13927 times.



Quoting F9fan (Reply 95):
3. The price of gasoline is significantly cheaper in the U.S. than in Europe or Japan.

4. (somewhat related to 3) Taxes on owning and operating a car are much lower in the U.S. than in other countries.

Simple solution. Increase taxes on gasoline, use the money for high speed trains.

The American people would not like the this solution very much, but nobody can deny that it would be good for the environment. And it sure would reduce the number of unemployed people in the US for many years.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: A340Jamaica
Posted 2009-08-08 10:39:53 and read 13686 times.



Quoting F9fan (Reply 95):
. The price of gasoline is significantly cheaper in the U.S. than in Europe or Japan.

4. (somewhat related to 3) Taxes on owning and operating a car are much lower in the U.S. than in other countries.

5. During WWII, the railroads in the U.S. (which are privately owned) refused to give discounts to the military for transport of troops and goods. Well, when the supreme commander of allied forces during WWII was elected president, he created the interstate highway system so DoD didn't have to rely on the railroads.

The gasoline and other transportation fuels (kerosene, diesel) price will not remain low if the economy recovers. Aviation will forever be hobbled by this reality and placing one's head in the sand will do you no good regarding this reality. That is guaranteed. It is called hedging your bets by developing electric rail, especially for East of the Mississippi that has similar population density to Europe believe it or not!!! It's only when you get out West that things get really sparse.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 93):
NYC 8950
LAS 4075
WAS 3914
LAX 3742
MCO 3508
DFW 3274
DEN 3207
ATL 3105
MSP 3071
PHX 3053
PHL 2959
BOS 2836
SFO 2556
TPA 2342
HOU 2318
DTW 2209
MCI 2214
BWI 2110
FLL 1967
STL 1878

A big part of what you miss is that you assume all the travel is to/from Chicago missing the numerous intermediate trips that occur. I am prepared to bet that if rail was sufficiently developed in those six corridors, a good 10 - 15%, maybe even as much as 20% of all domestic air travel could be eliminated.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-08 10:51:16 and read 13667 times.



Quoting A340Jamaica (Reply 97):
A big part of what you miss is that you assume all the travel is to/from Chicago missing the numerous intermediate trips that occur.

Explain more, please. I don't understand.

Quoting A340Jamaica (Reply 97):
I am prepared to bet that if rail was sufficiently developed in those six corridors, a good 10 - 15%, maybe even as much as 20% of all domestic air travel could be eliminated.

...and the US would still have an enormous domestic air travel market, one of the largest in the world.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2009-08-08 13:38:02 and read 13562 times.



Quoting F9fan (Reply 95):
I believe the Army now handles their basic training in S.C., and if you want to be a navy pilot, your training is at least partially at NAS.

The Army has 5 basic training sites, Ft Jackson is in SC but they also have training in OK, KY, MO, and of course, Ft Benning in GA, one of the largest bases in the world (even more than just basic.) And CSG, the airport closest to Ft Benning, is served by DL and US I believe. Not to mention GA has Ft Gordon and Ft Stewart, so GA is big for the military, and a lot of the flights do indeed go through ATL.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-08 13:47:30 and read 13532 times.



Quoting Farzan (Reply 96):
The American people would not like the this solution very much, but nobody can deny that it would be good for the environment. And it sure would reduce the number of unemployed people in the US for many years.

Actually, the higher taxes would probably lead to higher unemployment.

I would also deny that it would be better for the enviroment, in that you would be making alot of pollution to manufacture all this HDR infrastructure and equipment that in the end, very few would use. The USA and Europe are very different.

Anyway, this is all very off-topic. This thread is not about high speed rail concepts for the USA, it is about why ATL is the busiest airport in the world.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: JetBlue777
Posted 2009-08-08 14:15:35 and read 13543 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

Wow, alot of people connect from NYC in ATL. Personally, my friend connected in ATL. He was travelling from JFK to LAX and he wanted to try the 777 from ATL to LAX.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DiscoverCSG
Posted 2009-08-08 18:32:43 and read 13416 times.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I really cannot imagine that there is a popular destination you can only get to from JFK, LGA or EWR through ATL. I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 99):
And CSG, the airport closest to Ft Benning, is served by DL and US I believe.

The only commercial service in CSG in DL, to and from ATL.

Signed,

DiscoverCSG

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: A340Jamaica
Posted 2009-08-08 18:35:13 and read 13409 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 98):

...and the US would still have an enormous domestic air travel market, one of the largest in the world.

I don't recall anyone arguing otherwise. I certainly was not. I am just saying in light of recent events that illustrated the hazards of overreliance on cheap, readily available transportation fuels, a strategy that diversifies this situation where it makes sense is a very worthwhile goal, particularly for some very busy transportation corridors like intra-California, intra-Texas and the NE that account for a large share of total traffic in the country.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 98):
A big part of what you miss is that you assume all the travel is to/from Chicago missing the numerous intermediate trips that occur.

Explain more, please. I don't understand.

Unlike air, rail can serve many more point to point destinations by virtue of simply having more stations. A lot of driving from outlying suburban areas to get to ORD can be eliminated if there is a rail stop located closer, which is likely. Assuming a network centered on CHI, it is possible to have through services where no connections occur thus increasing exponentially the potential origin/destination pairs. Such is the beauty of rail. With true HSR, a straight run like Detroit to St. Louis is very possible with maybe a 5 or 10 minute stop in CHI (to allow for connections) in 4 hours which, while not the 1 - 1.5 hours as the flight is very competitive, especially in wintertime when air delays get bothersome.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-08 18:43:32 and read 13401 times.



Quoting A340Jamaica (Reply 103):
A lot of driving from outlying suburban areas to get to ORD can be eliminated if there is a rail stop located closer, which is likely.

Right, but because those people are flying now, they are captured in the numbers I posted. HSR gets you from Glenview to St. Louis without flying, but it still doesn't get you from Arlington Heights to Dallas.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: A340Jamaica
Posted 2009-08-08 21:02:11 and read 13319 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 104):

Right, but because those people are flying now, they are captured in the numbers I posted. HSR gets you from Glenview to St. Louis without flying, but it still doesn't get you from Arlington Heights to Dallas.

Some of those outlying persons are not flying. It is too much of a hassle (1 hour drive or more + airport overhead time like checking in, security etc) and they probably drive instead, especially if they are going to the near side of their destination cities. HSR can get some of these people that air cannot hence my stating that the market is much bigger than the CHI airport numbers for those corridors.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-08 21:02:29 and read 13328 times.



Quoting A340Jamaica (Reply 103):
With true HSR, a straight run like Detroit to St. Louis is very possible with maybe a 5 or 10 minute stop in CHI (to allow for connections) in 4 hours which, while not the 1 - 1.5 hours as the flight is very competitive, especially in wintertime when air delays get bothersome.

Unless a bridge is built for the high speed rail, across Lake Michigan, I would imagine it would take much longer from Chicago to Detroit than that.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-08 21:14:26 and read 13315 times.



Quoting A340Jamaica (Reply 105):
HSR can get some of these people that air cannot hence my stating that the market is much bigger than the CHI airport numbers for those corridors.

No one is flying from Joliet to Edwardsville or from Gary to Ann Arbor, but how many of those people are there?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2009-08-09 03:40:12 and read 13167 times.



Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 5):
One day sooner than we think, China air traffic will outstrip the US.

 redflag 

Not likely - the vast majority of China's population is poor and cannot afford to travel anywhere by air.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2009-08-09 11:34:29 and read 12957 times.



Quoting Farzan (Reply 96):
Increase taxes on gasoline, use the money for high speed trains.

It wouldn't even come close to covering the cost. Not even close.

As others have said, the reason it works in Europe is because the countries are tiny, and no major city is more than - at most - 1000 kilometers away.

European governments have also historically had more money to spend on these sorts of things - along with liberal social welfare programs - because their priorities are different, and because they have enjoyed the defense shield provided by massive U.S. defense spending.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Europeans have been much more willing to date to sacrifice economic growth in the name of whatever particular cause or social idea they were dealing with at the time. Generally speaking, Europeans long ago accepted a social model that - in most cases - virtually guarantees low economic growth. If that's the choice they want to make, that's fine, but I don't think it would cut it for most American voters.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 96):
The American people would not like the this solution very much, but nobody can deny that it would be good for the environment.

Sure they can. Plenty of people can.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 96):
And it sure would reduce the number of unemployed people in the US for many years.

Quite the opposite. We need look no further than Europe itself to see the long-term trend of that sort of thinking: confiscatory tax schemes and oppressive regulatory environments in which the government assumes the power to influence and/or control individual decision like medical care and transportation almost universally leads to lower (if any) growth, and definitely lower employment.

All those taxes the U.S. government would - hypothetically, under your idea - being taking out of the U.S. economy in order to build all these high-speed rail lines nobody would use would be billions upon billions upon billions that would not be available for private allocation in the free market. That would lead to less jobs, not more.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-08-09 11:43:04 and read 12948 times.



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 108):
Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 5):
One day sooner than we think, China air traffic will outstrip the US.



Not likely - the vast majority of China's population is poor and cannot afford to travel anywhere by air.

That is changing rapidly. In fact, I see more Chinese tour groups in Europe now than Japanese.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2009-08-09 11:45:43 and read 12954 times.



Quoting Farzan (Reply 96):
Increase taxes on gasoline

For some reason I think that would be a BAD idea. As many have pointed out, the US is just too spread out for European style railways. A lot of cities are even too spread out for Metros. If there truly was a demand for American railways a company would've already done in, and companies like Amtrak would be way bigger than they are today.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2009-08-09 13:15:02 and read 12889 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 110):

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 108):
Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 5):
One day sooner than we think, China air traffic will outstrip the US.



Not likely - the vast majority of China's population is poor and cannot afford to travel anywhere by air.

That is changing rapidly.

Yet it will likely never equal the same percentage of the populace - or total volume - of U.S. citizens that travel by air.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: FlyDeltaJets87
Posted 2009-08-09 17:01:17 and read 12759 times.



Quoting F9fan (Reply 95):
There is another factor that may increase ATL's traffic. The military maintains a large presence in the southeast. I believe the Army now handles their basic training in S.C., and if you want to be a navy pilot, your training is at least partially at NAS.

The Pilot Training in Pensacola would have a minimal effect on traffic at ATL. Reasons like this will explain why routes like CAE and PNS receive mainline flights, but in the overall millions that transmit ATL, have a small impact. The contracts for routes are bid on by the airlines and its all on the "Lowest Bidder". I know in 2006 I had to fly GSO-DEN and was booked on US through CLT. A year later, another person went GSO-DEN and was on AA through DFW. Last year I think the contract belonged to DL.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):
I really cannot imagine that there is a popular destination you can only get to from JFK, LGA or EWR through ATL. I don't personally know a single person that has ever flown out of New York and connected in ATL.

Are there really popular routes like this that make ATL the "ideal" connection point for New York area airports?

Not everyone takes the direct flight. For those who live near JFK, EWR can be a pain to get to. Last year my dad, myself, and one his friends flew to Hawaii. My dad and I flew out of ATL, the friend lives on Long Island and flew from LGA. His routing was LGA-ATL-HNL going there, HNL-LAX-ATL-LGA going back. Obviously he could have done EWR-HNL nonstop on CO. But EWR is not convenient. In a population area of millions and millions of people spread out over several hundred square miles, you'll find enough people who would rather connect in an airport than deal with the traffic in the Lincoln Tunnel or on the GWB or on the Verazzano Narrows Bridge.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Luckyone
Posted 2009-08-09 21:13:13 and read 12605 times.



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 111):
For some reason I think that would be a BAD idea. As many have pointed out, the US is just too spread out for European style railways. A lot of cities are even too spread out for Metros. If there truly was a demand for American railways a company would've already done in, and companies like Amtrak would be way bigger than they are today.

Just thinking out loud here. I grew up in an average middle class family. The average middle class family lives in a single dwelling home on approximately 0.5 to 0.75 acres of land in the burbs. Four people on average live on that land. In Europe approximately 100 could live on that same plot of land, and that's everywhere.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Ilyag
Posted 2009-08-10 01:53:39 and read 12474 times.

Let me try to get this discussion back to its original topic. I'm not an expert in airport development, but ATL success seems also to be attributed to its efficient design. Yes, O/D traffic is huge (30M+), but I think ATL could not be #1 without being able to support ~60M connecting passengers.

And that definitely has to do with runways and terminal layout. The current master plan dates back to early 80s - when ATL abandoned the "fingered concourses" layout that still dominates many major US airports and swtiched to, then revolutionary, parallel terminals with underground connection. Such layout still works and is easily expandable, while others have to struggle (see ORD) to improve operations.

Note that many airports adopt this parallel terminals layout when going through major renovations (LHR T5, DFW, ORD, IAH development plans and others)

Regarding ORD, it seems to be that it had a great potential (larger metropolitan area, hub for two largest US airlines at the time) but due to outdated layout it wasn't able to grow when it could. So AA/UA had to spread their hub operations while DL could efficiently consolidate (almost) everything in ATL. Now, when ORD is getting better nobody actaully wants to grow there (AA/UA are not what they used to be and economy isn't helping)

Just my  twocents 

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: AirFRNT
Posted 2009-08-10 06:15:05 and read 12351 times.



Quoting Conti764 (Reply 44):

I've seen your president is planning on revising the US rail market with several 'high speed' (still remarkely slow compared to European and Asian HS routes) routes troughout the country...

Not True. Most of the HSR lines are proposed to be 220 mph. Just as fast as anything in Europe.

And yes, i agree with your points. The major HSR corridors that are less then 500 miles point to point will decimate the short-haul services that currently serve those city pairs. It's part of the reason I think that WN is so interested in Den. They need to grow, and that growth won't come out of the pacific.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 46):

1. Europe and Japan populations are much more concentrated around large city centers that are generally less than 1 days rail trip apart.

Ahh. Many of the classic falsities about rail. Yes, the density in the US on whole is far less then anywhere in Europe, but the Density in California, say, is remarkably similar to Spain which is building up a huge HSR system right now. The Density of key HSR corridors - around Chicago & Boston for example compares favorable with London and Paris.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 26):

I would think that MCI would have a very high amount of curbside relative to gates and passengers, along with DFW because they both have long semi-circle shaped terminals with adjacent roadways intended for O&D traffic. There is probably a correlation between the curbspace-gate/pax ration and the O&D-connecting ratio.

MCI - as TWA famously pointed out - is completely useless as a hub due to how (poorly) security is built there. DFW is better now that they have rail in, but have a lot of competition in the urban area.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2009-08-10 06:26:44 and read 12355 times.

First as a note, ATL is the evolution of Crandall's old hub system wihch he introduced in DFW. DL has taken it a step further by shoving so much traffic through ATL, that they don't have to wait for banks of flights. There is almost always a flight connecting in some reasonable amount of time.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 76):

The only way that HSR would work in the U.S. is between major population centers that were reasonably close to each other. Taking a HSR from Chicago to St. Louis might make sense at 150 mph or higher as it would only be about a 1 hour trip or a little more, BUT, even at 200 mph, would you want to spend more than 15 hours from Chicago to Los Angeles? I doubt it, unless you were on vacation, but I wouldn't think the business traveller would put up with that.

HSR only makes sense in city pairs less then 500miles apart. More then that, and it will be airfare unless it's leisure travel. But don't get me wrong, HSR is going to decimate city pairs less then 500 miles apart airfare wise.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 91):
There are maybe six. Let's not overstate it.

There are 10 corridors right now, and Colorado is pushing for a Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming 11th.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 96):

The American people would not like the this solution very much, but nobody can deny that it would be good for the environment. And it sure would reduce the number of unemployed people in the US for many years.

Umm. No. Artificial barriers cause job losses in general. The correct way to do this is evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Quoting Ilyag (Reply 115):

And that definitely has to do with runways and terminal layout. The current master plan dates back to early 80s - when ATL abandoned the "fingered concourses" layout that still dominates many major US airports and swtiched to, then revolutionary, parallel terminals with underground connection. Such layout still works and is easily expandable, while others have to struggle (see ORD) to improve operations.

ATL's midfield system was a great idea. The design was expanded and perfected by Denver, and was studied in Denver by both the Chinese for the new Beijing, as well as BAA (which designs and operates T5 in London). The group that built Denver is now designing the rebuild of LAX.

Denver's pinwheel is easily the most efficent airfield in the US, and is required by the wind patterns around the airport. The Parallel runways are better then the old haphazzard layouts, but still problematic depending on weather.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-10 07:03:08 and read 12287 times.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 117):
First as a note, ATL is the evolution of Crandall's old hub system wihch he introduced in DFW. DL has taken it a step further by shoving so much traffic through ATL, that they don't have to wait for banks of flights. There is almost always a flight connecting in some reasonable amount of time.

And everyone's hub system is an evolution of DL's hub and spoke system, which they pioneered.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2009-08-10 07:13:38 and read 12280 times.

As much as people on here hate Delta to watch the Atl hub in movement is simply amazing. One day for all the people come to ATL and watch the movement and the volume of people. Then you add in Airtran to the mix and its kinda like wow. LOL  Smile

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-10 07:24:02 and read 12252 times.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 117):
But don't get me wrong, HSR is going to decimate city pairs less then 500 miles apart airfare wise.

Acela hasn't exactly decimated fares on BOS-NYC or NYC-WAS...

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: MogandoCI
Posted 2009-08-10 08:05:07 and read 12194 times.



Quoting AirFRNT (Reply 116):
Ahh. Many of the classic falsities about rail. Yes, the density in the US on whole is far less then anywhere in Europe, but the Density in California, say, is remarkably similar to Spain which is building up a huge HSR system right now. The Density of key HSR corridors - around Chicago & Boston for example compares favorable with London and Paris.

The rule of thumb is that when HSR exceeds 4 hrs, the advantages of air trumps rail. California, although dense compare to most states, are highly concentrated in 4 towns of LA, SF, SD, and Sac. SF-LA is ~6-7hrs of driving nonstop (depends on how fast you drive), which translates to 4 hrs on HSR and maybe 2.5-3hrs on MagLev. Unlike Japan/Europe/NECorridor, there are few cities worth making a stop along the way, so the rail relies solely on O&D on both ends.

The economics of the route make it *just* beyond the point of advantageous against flying.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2009-08-10 08:09:46 and read 12186 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 118):
And everyone's hub system is an evolution of DL's hub and spoke system, which they pioneered.

For a really good read, I suggest "Hard Landing" which lays the credit at Crandall's feet.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-10 08:33:58 and read 12162 times.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 122):
For a really good read, I suggest "Hard Landing" which lays the credit at Crandall's feet.

Well, DL was operating a hub and spoke system at ATL when I hired on at ORD in '71, long before DFW was in the picture and before Crandall was with AA. All Crandall did was eliminate the banks of flights, which DL did also.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: B752OS
Posted 2009-08-10 08:37:57 and read 12145 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 120):
Acela hasn't exactly decimated fares on BOS-NYC or NYC-WAS...

True, but those are easily 2 of the largest business market in the country, so people are willing to pay for convenience.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-10 09:41:54 and read 12066 times.



Quoting B752OS (Reply 124):
True, but those are easily 2 of the largest business market in the country, so people are willing to pay for convenience.

...and I would argue that the same will happen in other places, like Chicago.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-10 10:01:48 and read 12090 times.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 122):
Quoting Mayor (Reply 118):
And everyone's hub system is an evolution of DL's hub and spoke system, which they pioneered.


For a really good read, I suggest "Hard Landing" which lays the credit at Crandall's feet.

This, from Wikipedia......

"In 1955 Delta Air Lines pioneered the hub and spoke system at its hub in Atlanta, Georgia [1], in an effort to compete with Eastern Air Lines. In the mid-1970s FedEx adopted the hub and spoke model for overnight package delivery, and after the airline industry was deregulated in 1978, Delta's hub and spoke paradigm was annexed by several airlines.

Airlines have extended the hub-and-spoke model in various ways. One method is to create additional hubs on a regional basis, and to create major routes between the hubs. This reduces the need to travel long distances between nodes that are close together. Another method is to use focus cities to implement point-to-point service for high traffic routes, bypassing the hub entirely.


(emphasis mine)

[Edited 2009-08-10 10:02:34]

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Sancho99504
Posted 2009-08-10 10:19:53 and read 12036 times.



Quoting Yeogeo (Reply 24):

You could add ANC in there, albeit seasonally.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-10 13:04:37 and read 11944 times.



Quoting AirFRNT (Reply 116):
Ahh. Many of the classic falsities about rail. Yes, the density in the US on whole is far less then anywhere in Europe, but the Density in California, say, is remarkably similar to Spain which is building up a huge HSR system right now. The Density of key HSR corridors - around Chicago & Boston for example compares favorable with London and Paris.

Every city is dense in the center, the crux is the distances between the major cities. To use your example, it is alot closer between LON and PAR than between BOS and CHI. No one wants to spend 12 hours on a train instead of 2-3 hours on a plane. There is also not the convenient, clean, and safe mass transit systems in the USA's major cities like Europe's (and little likelihood for the future.)

Quoting B752OS (Reply 124):
True, but those are easily 2 of the largest business market in the country, so people are willing to pay for convenience.

Well, who do you propose selling tickets to? Only holiday travellers? If it won't work for businessmen, it just won't work.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2009-08-10 13:11:00 and read 11929 times.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 117):
First as a note, ATL is the evolution of Crandall's old hub system wihch he introduced in DFW. DL has taken it a step further by shoving so much traffic through ATL, that they don't have to wait for banks of flights. There is almost always a flight connecting in some reasonable amount of time.

This is actually a really good point. Banked hubs is a ridiculous waste of assets while everything sits unused at the same time.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: RB211
Posted 2009-08-10 20:00:32 and read 11780 times.



Quoting JetBlue777 (Thread starter):
Hi, I just wondered why is ATL the busiest airport in the world? First of all, Atlanta is not as heavily populated like cities such as New York, Los Angeles or Tokyo. I know those three cities has more than one major airports. Where do most people that use ATL come from? Atlanta is not that heavily populated so it always puzzles me why its the busiest airport in the world.

Believe me, you'd have to REALLY see it to believe it. There really aren't too many places on this planet you cannot fly to out of Atlanta non-stop as opposed to say the NYC area where they have two international airports and three domestic. (if you count White Plains and Islip)

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-11 08:14:34 and read 11762 times.



Quoting RB211 (Reply 130):
two international airports and three domestic.

It's interesting, I think, to look at some of the multi-airport areas and compare them to Europe. Take Chicago, for instance. ORD is busier than LHR and MDW is just about as busy as LGW (~300 movements/day). London is a larger and more important city than Chicago, and yet Chicago comes close to having the level of air service that London has.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-11 09:13:36 and read 11755 times.



Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 129):
This is actually a really good point. Banked hubs is a ridiculous waste of assets while everything sits unused at the same time.

From an operational point of view, banked hubs actually work better than you think. There's usually enough time between banks for the gates to get cleared of previous flights so you don't have an early arriving flight, sitting there waiting for a gate. Changing gates is really not something you'd rather do.....involves too much, moving outbound pax to the new gate, moving ground crew and equipment, etc.

When you start to blend the banks, is when you have gate issues.....in many cases, even if you did want to change a gate for an early arriving flight, you might not have any available to use for that.

That having been said, smoothing out the banks was done to keep the ATC system flowing smoother.....instead of having groups of flights taking off within a few minutes of each other, they've been spread out more, alleviating some pressure on ATC.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-11 09:31:46 and read 11766 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 132):
From an operational point of view, banked hubs actually work better than you think.

It partially depends on how many banks you have. DL's use of MEM, for instance, is incredibly wasteful (though it works for them, which may be all that matters).

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Thegeek
Posted 2009-08-12 01:32:06 and read 11212 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 131):
yet Chicago comes close to having the level of air service that London has

You're ignoring all the minor airports: LCY, STN, LTN. I think one other.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-12 07:07:55 and read 11126 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 133):
It partially depends on how many banks you have. DL's use of MEM, for instance, is incredibly wasteful (though it works for them, which may be all that matters).

Well, I was thinking more of my experience at SLC. We had a 0900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1400/1500, 1600, 1800, 2000 and 2100 bank. Some of the banks were smaller and some overlapped into the other (1400/1500). After awhile, when it was decided to get away from the defined banks, the schedule had much more overlap rather than distinct start and stop times for the banks.

Can't speak for the hub at MEM, except to say that whatever is there, schedule wise, is certainly left over from NW's operation of the hub. I would imagine that, once the SOC is in place, schedules thruout the system will be rectified, especially at the hubs.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-12 08:01:56 and read 11089 times.



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 134):
You're ignoring all the minor airports: LCY, STN, LTN. I think one other.

...which, combined, probably have about the same amount of service as LGW, correct?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Rwessel
Posted 2009-08-12 15:32:47 and read 10960 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 131):
London is a larger and more important city than Chicago,

The difference might be smaller than you think. While London proper is quite a bit larger than Chicago (7.5m people vs. 2.8m), the London metro area is 13m vs 9.5m for Chicago.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-12 15:40:31 and read 10946 times.



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 137):
the London metro area is 13m vs 9.5m for Chicago.

It's tougher than that, though, because the population density in Britain is so much higher than in the States. England is smaller than Illinois, and there are probably 45 million people within 250 km of London.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2009-08-12 15:44:36 and read 10939 times.



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 137):
The difference might be smaller than you think. While London proper is quite a bit larger than Chicago (7.5m people vs. 2.8m), the London metro area is 13m vs 9.5m for Chicago.

There are also other airports serving the greater Chicagoland area, such as GYY.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2009-08-12 17:17:23 and read 10898 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 132):
From an operational point of view, banked hubs actually work better than you think. There's usually enough time between banks for the gates to get cleared of previous flights so you don't have an early arriving flight, sitting there waiting for a gate.

While I agree with some of what you said, my statement still holds. In terms of resources such as ground personnel, you have to staff for the maximum. If you have 30 gates, you have to have 30 sets of personnel in order to work all the flights at the same time. Now, once those flights all depart at roughly the same time, you now have 30 sets of personnel sitting idle until the next bank rolls in. With a rolling hub, you can serve those same 30 flights with 15 gates and 15 sets of personnel that are working non-stop. (And, theoretically, you could serve 60 flights with the initial 30 gates/groups.) Certainly the math is not quite as clean as you have to allow for slack and contingencies as you mentioned. Still, it beats the snot out of having 30 gates stand idle for an hour.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Thegeek
Posted 2009-08-12 18:55:33 and read 10867 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 136):
...which, combined, probably have about the same amount of service as LGW, correct?

Sounds about right. That's a pretty significant amount though.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: RwSEA
Posted 2009-08-12 19:08:17 and read 10854 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 120):
Acela hasn't exactly decimated fares on BOS-NYC or NYC-WAS...

Acela still isn't true HSR. It's competitive now with air transport on a door-to-door time basis, but say they cut off an hour on either route, and now you're faster than flying. If the investment was made to make Acela a true, high-speed corridor, I think you'd see things change in a big way.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-12 19:27:05 and read 10822 times.



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 142):
If the investment was made to make Acela a true, high-speed corridor, I think you'd see things change in a big way.

I don't know that air fares would necessarily change, though. Couldn't Acela fares just as easily (or more easily) go up?

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Thegeek
Posted 2009-08-12 20:08:01 and read 10782 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 143):
I don't know that air fares would necessarily change, though.

Probably not, but air's market share would be decimated.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-13 07:04:20 and read 10678 times.



Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 140):
Now, once those flights all depart at roughly the same time, you now have 30 sets of personnel sitting idle until the next bank rolls in.

Ah, but you don't, though. Since the flights can depart up to 30-45 minutes after the first one, by the time the last flight leaves, the inbounds for the next bank are starting to arrive. Even then, those personnel aren't sitting idle, as they are preparing their gate for the next flight. Very little actual "idle" time, at least in my experience. All the rolling banks do is create more overlap between banks.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-13 07:28:56 and read 10662 times.



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 144):
Probably not, but air's market share would be decimated.

...but I wonder how much of a time difference is necessary for that to happen. As long as the FRA has the crashworthiness standards it currently has, we'll never have "true" HSR in this country. If you shipped an Acela train to France and put it on the (very nice) track there, it wouldn't be as fast as TGV.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2009-08-13 08:37:01 and read 10623 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 145):
Very little actual "idle" time, at least in my experience. All the rolling banks do is create more overlap between banks.

I'm curious as to what experience that would be and if it is with airlines/airports that already have a hybridized system leaning toward a rolling hub. At a truly banked hub, it is not uncommon to see over 75% of the gates free between banks.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-13 08:49:57 and read 10622 times.



Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 147):
I'm curious as to what experience that would be and if it is with airlines/airports that already have a hybridized system leaning toward a rolling hub. At a truly banked hub, it is not uncommon to see over 75% of the gates free between banks.

Is 23 years at SLC, enough? DL at SLC first had a define bank system and then went to more of a rolling hub, later. Even with defined banks, there is some overlap between the last departure and the next arrival.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2009-08-13 16:01:28 and read 10492 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 148):
Even with defined banks, there is some overlap between the last departure and the next arrival.

And yet you have very pronounced peaks of utilization. If you think of those peaks and valleys as sand in a dish, what happens if you shake the dish a little? Once it levels out, you still have the same amount of sand, and yet the maximum depth at any one spot is significantly less than the original peaks you had. Bottom line is, the greater the differential between peak and valley, the most inefficient it is in terms of material and personnel usage. Simple mathematics.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2009-08-13 17:09:11 and read 10438 times.



Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 149):
And yet you have very pronounced peaks of utilization. If you think of those peaks and valleys as sand in a dish, what happens if you shake the dish a little? Once it levels out, you still have the same amount of sand, and yet the maximum depth at any one spot is significantly less than the original peaks you had. Bottom line is, the greater the differential between peak and valley, the most inefficient it is in terms of material and personnel usage. Simple mathematics.

True, but using that theory, the best way to schedule would be to have departures every 10 minutes or so. Nice theory, but it sure wreaks havoc at a hub when you're trying to connect people and bags. The 0900 bank we had at SLC had a couple of "bridge" flights (hub to hub) that would wait for the first arrivals from the outlying cities for their connections. It may be inefficient, but it was a necessary evil, to make the hub work as it should.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Thegeek
Posted 2009-08-13 23:42:00 and read 10336 times.



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 146):
As long as the FRA has the crashworthiness standards it currently has, we'll never have "true" HSR in this country.

Not sure how much of a problem the crashworthiness standards is. Isn't it more inadequate catenary, track geometry, sharing the track with slower services and arbitrary speed restrictions in some places?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 146):
but I wonder how much of a time difference is necessary for that to happen

I'd expect a 50% increase in average speeds to make a fair bit of headway in this regard.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2009-08-14 16:35:43 and read 10136 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 150):
True, but using that theory, the best way to schedule would be to have departures every 10 minutes or so. Nice theory, but it sure wreaks havoc at a hub when you're trying to connect people and bags.

That's not entirely true. A perfect rolling hub would have an arrival from and a departure to a destination every 60-120 minutes. That way, your maximum connection time would be 120 minutes. Your minimum, of course, would be whatever you designate it to be... for example 20 minutes. If that restriction is in place on booking, you never have to worry about someone having a 10-minute connection. The result is that you have connections between 30 minutes and 2 hours.

Trust me, it's doable.

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: RB211
Posted 2009-08-14 21:24:49 and read 10058 times.

Honestly I would think a lot of what makes ATL "tick" is the Southeast and Delta Connection. People around here are pretty much brand loyal to basically everything. When Eastern went belly up, lots of folks gravitated to Delta because they were familiar with ATL. It's pretty much THE "local airport" around here. As someone said earlier, lots of people commute to ATL to fly because it's only a couple hours away from where they live not to mention they can even catch Greyhound from their home town to South Terminal without missing a beat. But if you think it's busy with 5 runways, you should have seen it with four.... "Rack em' and stack em'!

[Edited 2009-08-14 21:44:19]

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2009-08-18 10:52:16 and read 9777 times.



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 151):
Isn't it more inadequate catenary, track geometry, sharing the track with slower services and arbitrary speed restrictions in some places?

It's all of those things in some places. Acela can operate at its maximum design speed on some parts of the route, though, and still isn't as fast as European HSR (due mostly to its weight).

Topic: RE: Why Is ATL The Busiest Airport In The World?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2009-08-18 12:52:02 and read 9706 times.

The whole subject of banks, rolling banks, etc. is a tad foreign. I understand the concept but only working at the airport for about 2 years and after Operation Clockwork was in full swing, that's all I know. I would say though, that even at ATL were I was at; concourse C would be pretty much a ghost town for about an hr and a half to 2 hrs. I would say anywhere between 1330 and 1500, flights would be pretty much flat. That was generally were flights would see the most ground time or you can look up and down the concourse and about half if not more of the gates were empty. Then...my radio would start going crazy "ship 973 is in range for the 45 spot. You also have ship 712 and 850 are also in range for the 39 and 41 spot."

I loved every minute of it though!


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