Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4532357/

Topic: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: BA84
Posted 2009-08-27 09:15:43 and read 6299 times.

Any AC insiders know the reasons?
Competition from Caribbean?
This was a legacy route, via Bermuda, Antigua, Barbados, to Trinidad using DC-8's.

BA84

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2009-08-27 12:40:40 and read 6194 times.

In a nutshell

Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
Competition from Caribbean?

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2009-08-27 13:59:29 and read 6125 times.

I would suggest that most of the people traveling to POS are holiday types that would not pay for premium fares. Air Transat, Sunquest, Sunwing et al are probably doing fine handling the traffic heading to POS along with Caribbean.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Caribbean484
Posted 2009-08-27 14:15:14 and read 6093 times.



Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
This was a legacy route, via Bermuda, Antigua, Barbados, to Trinidad using DC-8's.

Yes AC had a long prosperous history in POS and one of the longest serving airline to that Airport, They also has their L1011s maintained by BWIA in the past, so why they left:

Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
Competition from Caribbean?



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 2):
I would suggest that most of the people traveling to POS are holiday types that would not pay for premium fares. Air Transat, Sunquest, Sunwing et al are probably doing fine handling the traffic heading to POS along with Caribbean.

No, there is significant business pax from POS-YYZ due to the financial sector in Trinidad and the relationships with the Banks, basically AC was not fulling the back of the planes since many of the pax choose the charter competition at those times; Zoom, Air Transat and Skyservice, AC and BWIA had the business pax, and as such AC was in direct competition with Caribbean Airlines who had 14w compared to their 3 weekly. Passengers never like the idea of traveling to CCS from YYZ, more so the business pax, AC lost out and never recovered the following they had in the past.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: BA84
Posted 2009-08-27 23:47:39 and read 5901 times.

Thank you everyone, for the explanations.
Caribbean certainly is competitive, and they are the home team.
It seems AC was complacent, and let the business slip away.
Is Trinidad considered a "sun" destination?

BA84

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2009-08-28 05:02:25 and read 5830 times.



Quoting BA84 (Reply 4):
Is Trinidad considered a "sun" destination?

Not in the least! Trinidad is a business hub and VFR city, which makes it attractive to airlines, but unpopular with leisure travelers that fill flight after flight to NAS, MBJ, SXM, etc. Generally, the ethnic traffic opts for the national airline (in this case, Caribbean Airlines) over the foreign carrier such as AC or an American airline. Now, Tobago actually is a "sun" destination, and it is often reached via POS, actually. But, I imagine that market is quite small.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: LongHauler
Posted 2009-08-28 18:39:10 and read 5655 times.



Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
This was a legacy route, via Bermuda, Antigua, Barbados, to Trinidad using DC-8's.

and ...

DC-4M North Stars, L1049 Super Connies and Vanguards before that!

The big problem now is that AC does not have the proper aircraft. The A319 was too small for a low yield market like that. The A320 would be better sized, but does not have the range. The 767-300 is too large.

The B737NGs used by Caribbean Airlines make much more sense.

Whenever a route is canceled like POS, it is not just "is the flight making money?" ... sometimes the decision is more "can we make more money with this aircraft somewhere else?" The latter may be your answer with regard to POS.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: BA84
Posted 2009-08-29 00:07:27 and read 5542 times.

LongHauler, thanks for your insider views.
I remember the Vanguards when I lived in BDA as a kid.
There are always good reasons when a route is cancelled,
though they may not be apparent to the flying public.

BA84

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2009-08-29 03:51:47 and read 5480 times.

POS was indeed a destination for AC and its predecessor Trans Canadian since 1948. The YYZ - POS route is very heavy with VFR and business passengers but is not a leisure route as such. AC held its own against BW for many years but the rise of the charters in the '90s undid AC badly - Air Transat and SkyService being the leading operators to POS though Canada 3000 came occasionally too. As AC receded from using 767s to POS to the A320 (yes those were uesd to POS around the nid '90s) and latterly the A319, BW strengthened its hold on the market, perhaps helped by its introduction of the new 737-800s.

The final straw appeared to be the takeover of RBTT Bank by RBC last year. Canadian banks have tended to be very loyal to AC for their travel needs but RBTT had a strong relationship with BW, both old and new (i.e. Caribbean Airlines). One of the conditions of the takeover was that BW continued to be the preferred carrier for the new entity. It was shortly after this was announced that AC decided to withdraw from POS - it last flew there in August 2008.

About TAB, AC never flew its own planes there but at one time it was possible to get an AC ticket to TAB with a flight to BGI and a LI connection.

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Brilondon
Posted 2009-08-29 07:08:16 and read 5407 times.



Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
Trans Canadian since

It was Trans Canada. There has never been a Trans Canadian.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2009-08-29 10:32:28 and read 5340 times.

BriLondon, that was my bad. Thanks for the correction. Trans Canada indeed.

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: EcuadorianMD11
Posted 2009-08-29 10:42:49 and read 5331 times.



Quoting BA84 (Reply 4):
Is Trinidad considered a "sun" destination?

Trinidad not so much, but Tobago yes, very much so.

Oh, and they share POS as international airport..........

Ecuadorian MD11.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: SCL767
Posted 2009-08-29 11:49:12 and read 5300 times.



Quoting EcuadorianMD11 (Reply 11):
Trinidad not so much, but Tobago yes, very much so.

Oh, and they share POS as international airport..........

Most international pax traveling to TAB usually transit via POS since POS is the first point of entry into the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago and the fact that Caribbean Airlines operates up to 24 daily flights between the two islands. However, the Tobago Crown Point International Airport does have international flights year-round. BA operates LGW-ANU-TAB 2x weekly with the B772. Monarch operates LGW-TAB twice weekly as well. VS operates LGW-TAB-GND weekly with the B744. Condor will soon operate both FRA-BGI-TAB and FRA-TAB-PMV weekly with the B763. DL operates a weekly B738 service into TAB from ATL. The regional airline LIAT also operates nonstop flights between TAB and both BGI and GND.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2009-08-29 18:38:36 and read 5198 times.

To add to your excellent points SCL767, in fact both Trinidad and Tobago share both airports! TAB's UK services are heavily used by Trinidadians coming home or going over - in many instances flying from TAB is cheaper than from POS. I myself have just flown from TAB back to LGW - a trip report will follow soon. I remember reading on this forum some time ago that TAB at one point had over 66000 transit passengers in one year - many of those were off those long haul flights headed to POS (and also some went to BGI and GND on LI). Once my brother went to TAB to get a connection to BGI for Crop Over because all the flights from POS were fully booked.

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2009-08-30 06:39:10 and read 5052 times.

Here are past and current operators on the YYZ-POS route

BWIA- 707,L-1011,MD-83
Caribbean Airlines- 737-800
Air Canada-767-200, 747, L-1011, A319, A320
Rich International-L-1011
Royal Airlines-L-1011, 727
Canada 3000-A330-200, 757, A320
Skyservice Airlines- A320, A330-300, 757
Air Transat- L-1011, 757, A310, A330-200/A330-300 (Returning to POS as of December 9th 2009 with the A310)

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Fly2YYZ
Posted 2009-08-30 08:06:13 and read 5002 times.



Quoting BWIA330 (Reply 14):
Here are past and current operators on the YYZ-POS route

Don't forget :

Zoom Airlines 767-300/757-200

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2009-08-30 09:32:13 and read 4960 times.

Thanks Fly2YYZ,

I cant believe I totally forgot about Zoom lol, and I flew with them to POS many times.

Regards

BWIA330

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Trintocan
Posted 2009-08-30 11:59:04 and read 4907 times.

BWIA330, to add to your list, AC used the DC-8-63 to POS prior to using the other jets you listed. I do not know the prop types they used before the jets came aboard though I think that they used the Vickers Vanguard at one point.

TrinToCan.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Inbound
Posted 2009-08-30 13:06:22 and read 4871 times.

Actually if I'm not mistaken, AC said that from time to time they would reassess the route and consider restarting it if needed.

So who knows, maybe it's not the end of AC at POS.

Topic: RE: Why Did Air Canada Stop Service To POS?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-08-30 13:49:16 and read 4838 times.



Quoting Trintocan (Reply 17):
BWIA330, to add to your list, AC used the DC-8-63 to POS prior to using the other jets you listed. I do not know the prop types they used before the jets came aboard though I think that they used the Vickers Vanguard at one point.



Quoting BWIA330 (Reply 14):
Air Canada-767-200, 747, L-1011, A319, A320

AC, under both their current and former name,Trans-Canada Air Lines, has used almost every type in their fleet to POS except the Vickers Viscount, DC-9 and earlier twin-piston types like the DC-3.

Service started in the late 1940s with the Canadair DC-4M North Star. The L1049 Super Constellation was also used in the mid to late 1950s, followed by the DC-8-40/50/61/63, Vickers Vanguard, and all the other types mentioned. When YYZ-POS service started, elapsed time on a North Star was 13 hr. 25 min. with 2 stops at Bermuda and Barbados.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/