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Topic: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2009-09-02 15:32:42 and read 9185 times.

I was wondering, is there any reason for a trend towards Eurowhite liveries? Why not "Euroblack" instead? The reason I ask this is likely because black paint is inexpensive, and does not require frequent cleaning. Why else did Ford only offer the Model T in black?

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Nws2002
Posted 2009-09-02 15:36:19 and read 9174 times.

I own a black car, it shows every speck of dirt. It would also cause the cabin to heat up while on the ground.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2009-09-02 15:36:48 and read 9174 times.

White paint reflects sunlight and reduces heating.

An all-black plane would need a stronger (and heavier and less-efficient) cooling system.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2009-09-02 15:41:51 and read 9158 times.

Black paint absorbs heat and in turn, that increases the costs to cool a/c. In turn, that increases maintenance costs on either the a/c or on the air conditioning carts/packs used to cool while at a gate.

The heat absorption properties of black (and dark shades of colors like blue) is why when HP and US merged, they came up with a new livery that was predominantly white because of the hubs in the desert.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Contrails15
Posted 2009-09-02 15:42:00 and read 9161 times.

I know that the Playboy plane was the only plane allowed to have a black livery. They asked the FAA for permission. I think it was the FAA. I'm guessing it has something to do with the visabilty of the plane at night. Perhaps planes aren't black for safety reasons. I mean the only one I've ever seen was the Playboy plane.

Okay so after reading some posts perhaps I'm way off on this but I remember watching a documentary on Hugh Hefner and they mentioned something about getting special permission to have his plane all black.

[Edited 2009-09-02 15:44:52]

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: NWADC9
Posted 2009-09-02 15:58:29 and read 9107 times.



Quoting Contrails15 (Reply 4):
I know that the Playboy plane was the only plane allowed to have a black livery.

Not necessarily black, but...

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Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Contrails15
Posted 2009-09-02 16:02:20 and read 9084 times.



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 5):


Quoting Contrails15 (Reply 4):
I know that the Playboy plane was the only plane allowed to have a black livery.

Not necessarily black, but...


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I guess thats just as dark as black so perhaps my black livery theory is wrong.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2009-09-02 16:03:05 and read 9085 times.

What about Delsey airlines? When they were around they were all black

[Edited 2009-09-02 16:04:03]

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2009-09-02 16:06:04 and read 9052 times.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 5):

That's still lighter than the old US Airways blue (which is even darker than Midnight Blue).


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Quoting Heathrow (Reply 7):
What about Delsey airlines? When they were around they were all black

It was a dark gray:


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[Edited 2009-09-02 16:07:57]

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: VV701
Posted 2009-09-02 16:28:16 and read 9002 times.


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Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Lexy
Posted 2009-09-02 16:44:59 and read 8958 times.

Well, Vince McMahon's personal jet is all black with the "WWE" logo painted on the tail and a series of red cheatlines down the side.

N247WE


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Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2009-09-02 18:19:25 and read 8801 times.



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 8):

It was a dark gray:

Thank you! I saw an aircraft on a.net with a "sky 1" livery. It's completely black

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Falstaff
Posted 2009-09-02 18:42:13 and read 8754 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Why else did Ford only offer the Model T in black?

Back when I worked for Ford that was a odd bit of trivia we learned in training. The black paint used at that time would dry faster than any other color. That was why it was used. Early model Ts (1908-1914) came in a variety of colors. When production was ramped up and fast assembly line work began the color became black. Late production model Ts (1926-1927) came in a variety of colors too.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: TSS
Posted 2009-09-02 19:44:44 and read 8642 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Why else did Ford only offer the Model T in black?



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 12):
The black paint used at that time would dry faster than any other color. That was why it was used. Early model Ts (1908-1914) came in a variety of colors. When production was ramped up and fast assembly line work began the color became black. Late production model Ts (1926-1927) came in a variety of colors too.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
Falstaff beat me to the post.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
The reason I ask this is likely because black paint is inexpensive, and does not require frequent cleaning.

With small amounts of paint one color costs the same as the next, but with large amounts of paint you start paying the difference in cost for individual pigments and good, stable (non-fading/non-color changing) black pigments are hard to come by. White is by far the most stable pigment, so it's easier to use and paint using white pigment can be applied in thinner layers than other colors which saves a bit of weight.

Also, a basic white plane can use decals for it's livery which can simply be removed if the plane is sold or returned from a lease, but colored planes would have to be repainted.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Cha747
Posted 2009-09-02 21:10:41 and read 8558 times.

Also...marketing/advertising 101. I was at a lecture in college and we had a guest speaker who spoke about aviation advertisement specifically. In Christian-dominated countries, she said, when given the choice, customers choose white or light colored aircraft over darker ones. In the study that she quoted, virtually nobody chose the plane that was painted black stem to stern. I always have wondered why??!!

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Dalmd88
Posted 2009-09-02 22:40:21 and read 8465 times.

I think the heat aspect is overstated. The true reasons I suspect are marketing and visablity in the air.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2009-09-02 23:15:17 and read 8398 times.



Quoting Cha747 (Reply 15):
Also...marketing/advertising 101. I was at a lecture in college and we had a guest speaker who spoke about aviation advertisement specifically. In Christian-dominated countries, she said, when given the choice, customers choose white or light colored aircraft over darker ones. In the study that she quoted, virtually nobody chose the plane that was painted black stem to stern. I always have wondered why??!!

You did say Christian-dominated right...? Christianity...light versus dark...psychology combined with taught history and religion...

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Greasemonkey
Posted 2009-09-03 04:39:28 and read 7659 times.



Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
White is by far the most stable pigment, so it's easier to use and paint using white pigment can be applied in thinner layers than other colors which saves a bit of weight.

In addition darker colored paint weighs more than white paint.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: SA7700
Posted 2009-09-03 07:36:58 and read 6679 times.

Let's not forget CityBird's (now defunct) colourscheme.... Those birds were beautiful!  Smile


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Rgds

SA7700

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: 2H4
Posted 2009-09-03 07:43:39 and read 6641 times.

White paint also makes it easier to spot fluid leaks.

2H4

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Trystero
Posted 2009-09-03 08:30:45 and read 6315 times.

Is it true that some companies (like TP, for instance) use a special paint that, although being more expensive, don´t need so much cleaning and have stronger resistance to fading? I deed notice that in some airlines the white color does have a slight different glow, but don't know if it's simply catalog color or any kind of special feature.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: 7673mech
Posted 2009-09-03 08:33:36 and read 6301 times.

Also - used on a daily basis it would show fade quicker.

Several airlines and paint manufacturers are studying how to mitigate this problem.
Purples (like FedEx and Hawaiian), Blues (Southwest) - generally dark colors are fading faster then lite ones.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Rara
Posted 2009-09-03 10:14:18 and read 5692 times.



Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 15):
I think the heat aspect is overstated.

I'd say so. Even more, wouldn't you heat a plane more often than cool it? At least in Central and Western Europe, we almost only heat our buildings, we hardly use cooling. Additionally, a plane operates most of the time in -40° C conditions where heat is no issue.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: 413X3
Posted 2009-09-03 10:30:56 and read 5587 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
and does not require frequent cleaning.

What??? You should try owning a black car sometime!

I believe white is a base paint used on all airplanes anyway, so why not keep it white

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: LuiePL
Posted 2009-09-03 10:35:56 and read 5560 times.

Let's not forget about Donald Trump's 727.


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Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: BritJap
Posted 2009-09-03 11:53:19 and read 5101 times.



Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):
Let's not forget CityBird's



Quoting LuiePL (Reply 24):
Let's not forget about Donald Trump's 727.

And Starflyer


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Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Vatveng
Posted 2009-09-03 12:00:43 and read 5225 times.



Quoting Rara (Reply 22):
Additionally, a plane operates most of the time in -40° C conditions where heat is no issue.

Heat in the air isn't the issue. It's the temperature on the ground that makes black liveries undesirable. Maybe in parts of Europe it isn't a problem but international carriers don't stay in just one region. If those planes fly to desert climates, the black paint really soaks up the heat sitting at the gate. If you've ever been in a plane at the gate in August in places like Phoenix or Denver, and the air conditioning gets shut off for whatever reason, you know that it doesn't take much time at all for it to get really hot inside the fuselage.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: BA777
Posted 2009-09-03 12:02:15 and read 5218 times.

Black paint weighs more than others too!

BA777

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: 413X3
Posted 2009-09-03 12:04:21 and read 5193 times.

I believe even in negative temperatures, friction must play some part on the surface of the aircraft. Just because outside air temps are -40 does not mean the skin of the airplane, flying at hundreds of miles an hour through the air, is that temperature as well

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Scorpio
Posted 2009-09-03 12:23:43 and read 5068 times.



Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):
Let's not forget CityBird's (now defunct) colourscheme.... Those birds were beautiful! Smile

They were green though, not black.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Bwest
Posted 2009-09-03 12:27:58 and read 5088 times.



Quoting Vatveng (Reply 26):
If those planes fly to desert climates, the black paint really soaks up the heat sitting at the gate. If you've ever been in a plane at the gate in August in places like Phoenix or Denver, and the air conditioning gets shut off for whatever reason, you know that it doesn't take much time at all for it to get really hot inside the fuselage.

I wonder if anyone ever bothered to tell this to Royal Jordanian


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Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Borism
Posted 2009-09-03 14:40:38 and read 4387 times.



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 28):
I believe even in negative temperatures, friction must play some part on the surface of the aircraft. Just because outside air temps are -40 does not mean the skin of the airplane, flying at hundreds of miles an hour through the air, is that temperature as well

Friction heating shouldn't relate to color though.

But darker plane will heat-up more at cruise altitude during the day because of the photo-effect and will cool more during the night because dark body radiates more. The difference with light colored plane will be minute to feel in the cabin, but might pose significant challenges for other systems.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-09-03 14:53:25 and read 4311 times.



Quoting 413X3 (Reply 23):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
and does not require frequent cleaning.

What??? You should try owning a black car sometime!

I believe white is a base paint used on all airplanes anyway, so why not keep it white

I recall a Boeing item a few years ago that said they were then using 46 different shades of while paint alone to meet customer livery requirements. They were trying to cut back to simplify. Not sure if they succeeded.

Topic: RE: Why Eurowhite And Not "Euroblack"?
Username: Maxpower1954
Posted 2009-09-03 22:05:56 and read 3980 times.

If you guys care to go back more than 20 years, here's a little history about white paint
on airliners.

Up to around 1950 or so, the standard was bare aluminum with different colored cheat lines.
I seem to remember it was United that started to experiment with white-topped fuselages
to reduce the cabin temperature while sitting on the ramp. In those days, no airliner had the capabilty of cooling the cabin with the engines shut-down - no APU in the piston days. Only the larger stations had AC trucks. In fact, un-pressurized planes like the DC-3, DC-4 and Martin 202 had NO air-conditioning equipment at all. The UAL experiment did reduce cabin temps by as much as 15 degrees, and by 1955 nearly everyone (with one notable exception - take a wild guess) had white fuselage crowns.

With turbine power and APUs, it became much less of a factor, just ask Braniff (if they were still around.) Air conditioning at the gate has gotten better with every generation of jetliner -
the 727 and 737 were real sweat boxes while the 757 and Airbuses can freeze you out even in PHX in August. I can't tell the difference here at US Airways between the Darth-Vader scheme and the current one, temp wise.


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