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Topic: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2009-11-07 08:25:02 and read 18132 times.

So far we have AA, CO & DL ordering the 787 and HA the A-350. Anyone else likely in the near future?

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: RW170
Posted 2009-11-07 08:26:21 and read 18136 times.

US also has the A350 on order.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2009-11-07 08:34:01 and read 18104 times.



Quoting RW170 (Reply 1):
US also has the A350 on order.

Thanks...didn't recall that order. Guess that only leaves UA as a prospect.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-11-07 08:37:33 and read 18098 times.

The A350 has more wing so probably more payload / range.

Theortically I could see the Pacific carriers (UA, DL) going for the A350-900 or A350-900R. For airlines wih strong Atlantic - Middle South America networks the 787-9 (and a possible high capasity medium range 787-10) seems better suited (AA, CO, US) IMO.

The 787-8 and A350-1000 seem to have segments of their own so could be ordered by all.

Domestic -Caribien / Canada networks replacement of the 757/767 fleets is still a question mark for me. The 787 seems very sub optimal and the A350 even less suited.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Bohica
Posted 2009-11-07 10:51:10 and read 17830 times.



Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 2):
Guess that only leaves UA as a prospect.

UA is planning on placing a large order for A/C before the end of the year. We'll have to wait and see who gives UA the best deal.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Bmacleod
Posted 2009-11-07 11:05:14 and read 17782 times.



Quoting HNL-Jack (Thread starter):
DL ordering the 787

Rumor was that DL was looking at cancelling the order due financial situation. But its 763s are aging so it's more likely the order would be delayed.

My  twocents  says the UA will choose the 787 over the A350XWB. More likely UA would order the A380 than order the A350....

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-11-07 12:01:03 and read 17597 times.



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):
Rumor was that DL was looking at cancelling the order due financial situation.

That was an unfounded rumor, AFAIK. It stemmed from them pushing back 787 deliveries. But this is more likely because they didn't want early build 787-8s, instead opting for "fully capable" 788 and 789s.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2009-11-07 12:34:33 and read 17523 times.



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):
My    says the UA will choose the 787 over the A350XWB. More likely UA would order the A380 than order the A350....

The latest rumor on the internets (I think I know who said it, but in case I'm wrong, I won't say!!!) was that Airbus had the lead in the order. Which makes sense for the narrowbodies... UA just retired their last 737Classic- why on Earth would they switch from A320 to 737NG now??
But for widebodies, it will be a surprise. And, for me, a disappointment.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-07 12:53:42 and read 17489 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
(and a possible high capasity medium range 787-10)

The 787-10 will be longer range than that, more like the A350-900. The only thing I could see with that description would be if they revive the -3 with a longer fuselage.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-11-07 13:33:06 and read 17401 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
The 787-10 will be longer range than that, more like the A350-900. The only thing I could see with that description would be if they revive the -3 with a longer fuselage.

I guess then it would need bigger wings / engines.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-07 13:47:30 and read 17349 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
I guess then it would need bigger wings / engines.

That chart has the 787-8 on it. The 787-10 as it stands now would be almost identical in size and range to the A350-900, not a high capacity medium range aircraft. The medium range 787 would be the 787-3, which is smaller plane and a dormant project.

I suppose they could use the 787-9 or -10 as the basis for a medium range variant, but I would question whether or not the demand is there. I don't think it is at the moment.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2009-11-07 14:04:51 and read 17295 times.



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
UA just retired their last 737Classic- why on Earth would they switch from A320 to 737NG now??

What does Airbus have to replace aging 757? Boeing has 737-900ER

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JHCRJ700
Posted 2009-11-07 14:13:15 and read 17255 times.

I sure hope United stay with Boeing for their long haul fleet. I would love to have seen some 737ngs in their livery  brokenheart 

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: A342
Posted 2009-11-07 14:14:50 and read 17247 times.



Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
What does Airbus have to replace aging 757? Boeing has 737-900ER

Airbus has the equivalent of the 737-900ER, the A321-200. And don't be fooled by the "ER" designation, the A321 has at least the same range and even a slightly higher maximum payload. This has been discussed in previous topics.

A342

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-07 14:15:30 and read 17248 times.



Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
What does Airbus have to replace aging 757? Boeing has 737-900ER

They have the A321, but UA is lucky in the respect that they can have either type actually replace the 757, since they don't fly them transatlantic. The 757 doesn't really need replacement that badly anyway.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Tu154
Posted 2009-11-07 16:35:57 and read 16742 times.

Didin't i read in another post that speculation is a UA order for the A350/330/321?

I think it was in a UA fleet update thread..........

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2009-11-07 16:38:38 and read 16716 times.



Quoting Bohica (Reply 4):
UA is planning on placing a large order for A/C before the end of the year. We'll have to wait and see who gives UA the best deal.

Again, UA asked for financing as part of the deal. I guess the manufacturer that is willing to finance the purchase and assume all of the risk is going to get the deal. However, one wonders what type of precedent that will set with other customers. It won't be good. Airbus' Enders in a WSJ article said something about cutting back on production rather than financing their own sales as that's not really bringing new money in the door. I find it hard to believe that Boeing is in a position to finance fleet renewal at UA. If either A or B do chose to do that, who will be next line looking for similar terms and when would it stop?

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-11-07 16:45:03 and read 16660 times.



Quoting HNL-Jack (Thread starter):
So far we have AA, CO & DL ordering the 787

AA is only an intent to order, subject to agreement with their pilots. Boeing hasn't recorded any firm 787 order from AA.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: KPHXFlyer
Posted 2009-11-07 18:53:53 and read 16011 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
AA is only an intent to order, subject to agreement with their pilots.

Based on reading some old threads, I'm to understand that the issue the pilots have with the 787 is the pay rate to fly it. I'm curious as to why the 787 requires a new agreement? Did they have to do something similar when they ordered the 777?

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Nws2002
Posted 2009-11-07 19:06:23 and read 15921 times.



Quoting KPHXFlyer (Reply 18):
I'm curious as to why the 787 requires a new agreement?

Pay scales are laid out in the contract by aircraft type at AA (and most other carriers). So a 5 year 737 captain makes X per hour, a 5 year 757/767 captain makes Y per hour, and a 5 year 777 captain makes Z per hour. Adding a new type requires negations on that new pay scale.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: SSTsomeday
Posted 2009-11-07 23:25:28 and read 15016 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Domestic -Caribien / Canada networks replacement of the 757/767 fleets is still a question mark for me. The 787 seems very sub optimal and the A350 even less suited.

Seems to me that domestic routes to/within Canada are being covered more and more by 737/320 sized A/C - because the market is very fragmented and (enter Westjet) they want to compete with a bit of frequency. There was a time when LAX-YYZ had a 747, 2 767's and a 320 in one day. I also flew an L-1011 in my day. Now it's all 320 traffic. And I think they have still lost a frequency on the route, due to competition (and now the recession).

However - that said - it seems you are right (from a previous thread) that we lack a true replacement for the 757/ 767-200. I think their would be a market for a long range, new build 200 seat A/C that could operate thin routes economically. A hub-buster, if you will.... I suggest you could get some nice premium yield on direct flights between secondary centers (business travelers avoiding plane changes = heaven)

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):
More likely UA would order the A380 than order the A350....

I wouldn't predict that, mostly because American carriers do not have one mega hub like many of their foreign counterparts. With the 777 doing largely what the 747 once did, but leaner and meaner, it seems to me that UA would go for some combination of the large twin (777/787/350 - though probably not all three.) Same with Delta/Northwest and their 744 fleet. I see their eventual replacements being large twins.

I'm not promoting this - it would be interesting to see the 380 or 747-8 in some domestic colors - but I just don't expect it. I don't think we have the niche.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-11-07 23:49:35 and read 14932 times.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
That was an unfounded rumor, AFAIK. It stemmed from them pushing back 787 deliveries. But this is more likely because they didn't want early build 787-8s, instead opting for "fully capable" 788 and 789s.

One PR from someone with "The 787 will play a major roll in our fleet"(R.anderson) has got a.net all up in arms. But you are right. Delta has moved the first to planes back, NW was only going to get 2 of the first 20. DL now has slots past the first 20 for 18 787-8 with RR Trent engines. This order is still alive and with the 787 backing up and Delta wanting to grow no more than 3% a year for now they are sitting pretty good. They have a good bit of slack in the 767/777/744 fleet and with them taking 2 more 777s next year they really don't need anything.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):
Rumor was that DL was looking at cancelling the order due financial situation

wow this is the first time i have heard this. No, Delta has not dumped any 787 orders.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Theortically I could see the Pacific carriers (UA, DL) going for the A350-900 or A350-900R.

"Of course, you could wait for the [Airbus] A350," he said, "But why?" Gerry Grinstein, couldn't have put it better myself Delta needs a 350 like they need the 748,380, and really 77W.

the 787-9 will be the next 763ER for Delta.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: WingedMigrator
Posted 2009-11-07 23:54:03 and read 14900 times.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 20):
With the 777 doing largely what the 747 once did, but leaner and meaner

Indeed, but it's doing it for other people. Not a single major US airline operates the 773ER... and it's possible that none ever will, unless the 777 is seriously refreshed.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2009-11-08 02:13:17 and read 14404 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 21):
couldn't have put it better myself Delta needs a 350 like they need the 748,380, and really 77W.

So, again I will ask you as in the past, on exactly what basis does someone without any experience definitively claim to know what aircraft an airline specifically needs/doesn't need to perform it's operations

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-11-08 02:30:22 and read 14324 times.



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 23):
So, again I will ask you as in the past, on exactly what basis does someone without any experience definitively claim to know what aircraft an airline specifically needs/doesn't need to perform it's operations

If the 744 are such money makers why is it that they are pretty much doing charter work and have some of the lowest number of routes?
LAX-NRT
ATL-NRT
DTW-NRT
MSP-NRT
DTW-NGO 5x weekly.
and a few NRT turns
with 16 airplanes.

I guess they are making so much money that they only need to run a few of them. So yea they should add the 380/748/77W/350 because they have a hard time making 16 744 work.  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-11-08 02:34:28 and read 14306 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 24):

and i forgot to add.....seeing the the US airlines are just and have been just making oh so much money they need to add MORE seats into there fleets. Hell Delta has two A330-300s seating at MZJ because they have to many widebodys, how do we fix this? Well when its time to pick new airplanes we do NOT buy the biggest.  Wink

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2009-11-08 03:20:03 and read 14726 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 24):
If the 744 are such money makers why is it that they are pretty much doing charter work and have some of the lowest number of routes?



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 24):
I guess they are making so much money that they only need to run a few of them. So yea they should add the 380/748/77W/350 because they have a hard time making 16 744 work



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 25):
and i forgot to add.....seeing the the US airlines are just and have been just making oh so much money they need to add MORE seats into there fleets

Hmm! I think you actually need to go back and re-read what I wrote, because none of that was what I asked you. For one, I never referred to 744's in any way whatsoever so why throw in a 'question' and think to be funny by silly sarcasm to avoid answering. I asked how someone with no absolutely experience can make definitive statements what aircraft is needed by an airline in order to run it's operations? Indeed, your very 'answer' (talking about biggest etc) shows your lack of knowledge on anything to do with proper aircraft procument. If you are merely quoting your opinion, then simply say so and thus speculate in that manner.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2009-11-08 03:34:27 and read 14646 times.



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 26):
Indeed, your very 'answer' (talking about biggest etc) shows your lack of knowledge on anything to do with proper aircraft procument

I said they don't need anything larger than the 789/77L.......you asked how do i know this......I told you. They aren't making money with the big(ger) planes they have now, what is the point of adding larger aircraft?
Parking 330s/hardly running the 744s says to me they are to big(744) or have to many (333)

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Astuteman
Posted 2009-11-08 05:46:19 and read 14102 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
The 787-10 will be longer range than that, more like the A350-900

It's difficult to understand how a 787-10 with 20 tonnes less MTOW, and less efficient engines, and smaller area/smaller span wings, can be of similar size and capacity to the A350-900 ANd have similar range and payload capability.
I struggle to see that.
I can fairly easily see how its lighter weight might give it great economics on slightly shorter routes

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 27):
They aren't making money with the big(ger) planes they have now, what is the point of adding larger aircraft?

That said, the bigger planes they have (744) are of a pretty old design, which has horrible operating economics when compared to the very latest planes like the 773ER, A380, 787 and A350

Rgds

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: 413x3
Posted 2009-11-08 05:53:41 and read 14049 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 24):
If the 744 are such money makers why is it that they are pretty much doing charter work and have some of the lowest number of routes?

Because gas is expensive in America. 4 engines equal more guzzling of expensive fuel

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: RB211TriStar
Posted 2009-11-08 07:19:13 and read 13588 times.



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):
More likely UA would order the A380 than order the A350....

I don't see UA ordering anything as large as the A380. They're only filling their planes as a result of reduced capacity as it is now. Someone would have to have some pretty optimistic outlooks on air travel for them to order larger frames. My opinion, though.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-11-08 08:27:55 and read 13089 times.



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 21):
"Of course, you could wait for the [Airbus] A350," he said, "But why?" Gerry Grinstein, couldn't have put it better myself Delta needs a 350 like they need the 748,380, and really 77W.

That was may 2007, a few months before infamous Dreamliner roll out. I'm under the impression a thing or two have changed since then.

Airbus offered many airlines A330 / A350 combination deals to reduce schedule / technology risks and avoid long backlogs. It worked very well. It seems Boeing has limitted options to sell 787s in combination with 777s (backlog 777-200ER/LR very low) nor in combination with 767s (hardly a passenger 767 sold during the last 5 yrs).

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Trex8
Posted 2009-11-08 08:41:28 and read 13045 times.



Quoting A342 (Reply 13):
Airbus has the equivalent of the 737-900ER, the A321-200. And don't be fooled by the "ER" designation, the A321 has at least the same range and even a slightly higher maximum payload. This has been discussed in previous topics.

Can a A321 or a 739ER , do LAX or PHX to Hawaii? UAL don't fly PHX-hawaii , uses US codeshare, but they do west coast to Hawaii.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: A342
Posted 2009-11-08 09:44:26 and read 12906 times.



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 32):
Can a A321 or a 739ER , do LAX or PHX to Hawaii? UAL don't fly PHX-hawaii , uses US codeshare, but they do west coast to Hawaii.

If a 739ER can do LAX-HNL (as proven by CO), so can an A321. But PHX-HNL is out of the question for both.

A342

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JRDC930
Posted 2009-11-08 10:09:35 and read 12827 times.

As much as i like Airbus long haul aircraft, i do hope UA goes with Boeing, just to support the home team so to speak. However, i have a nasty gut feeling, that they will go with airbus  Sad cant put my finger on it exactly, but maybe boeings bungling of the 787 program might have something to do with it.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-08 10:38:48 and read 12753 times.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 28):
It's difficult to understand how a 787-10 with 20 tonnes less MTOW, and less efficient engines, and smaller area/smaller span wings, can be of similar size and capacity to the A350-900 ANd have similar range and payload capability.
I struggle to see that.
I can fairly easily see how its lighter weight might give it great economics on slightly shorter routes

The numbers I saw quoted almost identical capacity and range for the two aircraft. Cargo might be an x factor here, but another possibility is the expandability of the A350. The -10 is the larges 787 variant, but the -900 is the middle A350 variant. My guess is that the A350-900 was designed with its larger stablemate in mind. Of course all of this could change in real life.

Quoting A342 (Reply 33):
But PHX-HNL is out of the question for both.

I would think that PHX-HNL is stretching it at best, especially on hot days. I think that even Aloha's 73G made a stop before continuing on to PHX, but I could be wrong.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: KPHXFlyer
Posted 2009-11-08 10:50:11 and read 12736 times.



Quoting A342 (Reply 33):
But PHX-HNL is out of the question for both.

US flies 757's on PHX-Hawaii flights. They could probably use a A319/A320 but I don't think they'd go to a smaller aircraft unless yields were bad on the 757.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
I think that even Aloha's 73G made a stop before continuing on to PHX, but I could be wrong.

Do you think it was a tech-stop or like a one-stop? I would think they didn't have a problem filling up a 73G in PHX if HA can handle a once daily 763.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-08 11:03:51 and read 12685 times.



Quoting KPHXFlyer (Reply 36):
Do you think it was a tech-stop or like a one-stop?

I don't know. Looking at an old route map, that PHX flight did indeed stop at SNA. AQ also had SNA-RNO and a few other routes on the mainland.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: EGNR
Posted 2009-11-09 09:36:34 and read 12233 times.

"Citing company statements and other sources, Leeham said United is not interested in the Airbus A380 or Boeing 747-8, considers the 777-300ER to be "old technology" and believes the 787 Dreamliner will be "unable to perform the missions desired." Airbus seems to have an edge with its A320 and A350 families, Leeham said."

Courtesy of Seattle PI Blogs

"We’re told Airbus seems to have the advantage to win the order. We’re told of the prospect of 35 A350s could be initially ordered. The A320 family, which comprises the bulk of UA’s mainline fleet now that the Boeing 737 Classics have been retired, has the advantage over Boeing’s 737NG, we’re told.

The Airbus plan to add winglets to the A320 family, beginning with the A321 to better compare with the 757, may be significant. UA does not operate the A321 today. The A321 does not have quite the range of the 757 and winglets would make the airplane a better US trans-con airliner. We speculate that this might be a key to winning the UA order."

Courtesy of Leeham News and Comment

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2009-11-09 12:28:43 and read 12041 times.



Quoting EGNR (Reply 38):
considers the 777-300ER to be "old technology" and believes the 787 Dreamliner will be "unable to perform the missions desired."

You know considering how old the 320 it's mildly amusing to hear that the 777 is now "old." The criteria in this award is going to be pricing and financing terms.

We will all see what the 787 ultimately does. Pretty bold statement really.

If Airbus wants to buy the order, it seems as though it is theirs to lose.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-35
Username: Wn676
Posted 2009-11-09 13:35:25 and read 11893 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
I would think that PHX-HNL is stretching it at best, especially on hot days. I think that even Aloha's 73G made a stop before continuing on to PHX, but I could be wrong.

It was either or OGG from PHX, I'm not sure which one it was, but either way it was a one-stop through SNA.

[Edited 2009-11-09 13:39:35 by wn676]

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-11-09 13:46:28 and read 11872 times.



Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 39):
If Airbus wants to buy the order, it seems as though it is theirs to lose.

I think they can deliver a very efficient proven product within two yrs, the A330. With the 787 you are facing a 800 aircraft backlog, unconfirmed performance and a shaky production scheme. I wonder how deep Boeing would have to go to "buy the order" under current circumstances.

That being said a 787-8 that meets its peformance targets / becomes available within a few yrs in good numbers would be a better aicraft for United. It would offer more destinations from LAX and SFO.

An upgraded A321 would probably offer the least weak 757/762 replacement..

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2009-11-09 14:37:14 and read 11771 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 41):
I wonder how deep Boeing would have to go to "buy the order" under current circumstances.

Just so you know I wrote, "buy the order" based on the following that was linked to in a previous post from ENGR:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/182761.asp

The carrier initially "sought terms that were considered ridiculous by many, particularly given United's own financial condition and the existing backlogs at Airbus and Boeing," Leeham news reported. "Industry sources said UA wanted the winning manufacturer to buy the 767s and 757s at above market valuations and lease them back at below market rental rates; to finance 100 percent of the new airplanes; and require no downpayment or progress payments."

It's not clear if those are just the terms initially "sought," or if they have since changed. But if either manufacturer went down that road it would be foolish beyond words. I can just see AA and DL or BA or whichever airline you chose lining up for the same deal. Who wouldn't have a new fleet under those terms? That would certainly absorb the cash off of both manufacturers' balance sheets. Buying market share is typically bad business.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-11-09 15:10:28 and read 11689 times.



Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 42):
It's not clear if those are just the terms initially "sought," or if they have since changed. But if either manufacturer went down that road it would be foolish beyond words.

I think Airbus and Boeing would be willing to do limtted consesions on normal market prices for the 787-8, 787-9, B737-7/800, 777-300ER, A319-A231, A330-2/300 , A350-8/900 and A380 because those aircraft have relatively strong market positions/backlogs.

That would be different for the 737-900ER, B767-400ER, B777-200LR, 747-8i or 787-10, A340-600, A350-1000 or new types / subtypes that have weaker market positions. A big order for those would justify an additional discount/ better financing options.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-09 16:28:55 and read 11573 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 41):
I think they can deliver a very efficient proven product within two yrs, the A330.

The A330 would work well on their Atlantic route system from ORD and maybe even SFO, though the -300 may be too large to replace the 767. The A330 could do some Pacific flights from SFO, but really would not work well from ORD or IAD, so they would need something else.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 41):
I wonder how deep Boeing would have to go to "buy the order" under current circumstances.

Probably free, or at least really cheap, 777s. Acutally, if Boeing gave them a great deal on 77Ws, it might be hard to pass up.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 41):
An upgraded A321 would probably offer the least weak 757/762 replacement..

UA might be the only airline out there that can realistically replace their 757s with A321s. The DEN-Hawaii routes would still be a problem though.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 43):
That would be different for the 737-900ER, B767-400ER, B777-200LR, 747-8i or 787-10, A340-600, A350-1000 or new types / subtypes that have weaker market positions. A big order for those would justify an additional discount/ better financing options.

Why the 739 or 77L? Those share assembly lines with much more popular models and therefore essentially have a strong market position and a healthy backlog. Boeing doesn't really care whether they want a 77W or a 77L since it is mostly the same for them. The same argument could possibly even be made for the 747-8 which shares its line with the more popular freighter variant.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Keesje
Posted 2009-11-09 16:49:29 and read 11550 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Why the 739 or 77L?

Low orders / backlogs. The -900ER is carried by Lionair, the 777-200LR has a backlog of 16 ?

Same for the 747-8i. It has a unique fuselage, systems and interiors and is running at a loss position already. An additional order is needed badly or Boeing & Lufthansa might jointly call it a day.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-09 17:05:23 and read 11494 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 45):
Low orders / backlogs. The -900ER is carried by Lionair, the 777-200LR has a backlog of 16 ?

But they are built on the same assembly line if I'm not mistaken, so the total 737 and 777 backlog is what is relevant.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 45):
Same for the 747-8i. It has a unique fuselage, systems and interiors and is running at a loss position already.

The problem with the 747-8i is spreading the R&D costs out over enough frames to be worthwhile. It isn't like another order is needed to save the assembly line.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2009-11-09 18:33:08 and read 11410 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 45):
An additional order is needed badly or Boeing & Lufthansa might jointly call it a day.

I have been patiently waiting for you to say this in this thread. That maybe what the 380 program needs, but LH and Boeing seem to be of a different mindset.

Wouldn't LH be better off taking the 20 planes firms and possibly the 20 options and utilizing them rather than paying Boeing to get out of taking them?

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Columba
Posted 2009-11-09 23:12:21 and read 11249 times.



Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 39):
You know considering how old the 320 it's mildly amusing to hear that the 777 is now "old." The criteria in this award is going to be pricing and financing terms.

We will all see what the 787 ultimately does. Pretty bold statement really.

The problem is with the 787 and A350 there will be a modern replacement for the 777 available soon. The A320/737NG will for a couple of years the only available option.

It is not modern but the most modern available.....

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Trex8
Posted 2009-11-10 14:19:55 and read 10819 times.



Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 47):
Wouldn't LH be better off taking the 20 planes firms and possibly the 20 options and utilizing them rather than paying Boeing to get out of taking them?

given LH are a launch customer and the only one at the time, or for the foreseeable future at the time also, they probably got very good terms for getting out of the order

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2009-11-10 15:18:50 and read 10731 times.



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 49):
given LH are a launch customer and the only one at the time, or for the foreseeable future at the time also, they probably got very good terms for getting out of the order

And, therefore, have a compelling incentive to keep flying the Queen. Reasonable?

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JRDC930
Posted 2009-11-10 15:29:10 and read 10695 times.



Quoting EGNR (Reply 38):
the 777-300ER to be "old technology" and believes the 787 Dreamliner will be "unable to perform the missions desired."

Good to know. If UA wants to lock itself in with one manufacturer i say let them. At least boeing knows now, not to waste their time with UA. Boeing should now ignore UA as well as any other traditionally Airbus operators; they should refuse to do any business with them, especially if their gonna insult their products like they said here. Why waste your time with longshots? concentrate on loyal airlines is whit i think they should do. There are far bigger customers, with much less hostility to boeing than UA.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2009-11-10 15:36:23 and read 10675 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 51):
Boeing should now ignore UA as well as any other traditionally Airbus operators

While part of me agrees with you, I also recall when Air Canada decided to get 787's and 777's for its long haul fleet. Now will Boeing go all out for UA after that comment, one wonders.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-10 15:37:12 and read 10668 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 51):
Boeing should now ignore UA as well as any other traditionally Airbus operators;

That is cutting off an awful lot of the market.

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 51):
Why waste your time with longshots?

Because sometimes it works. Not always, but even if you get one major order, it will have been time well spent. Air Canada was predominantly Airbus when they made their 777 order. Plus, what is Boeing supposed to do, turn away airlines that want to replace their A330s with 787s? The market isn't big enough for manufacturers to pick and choose who they will do business with.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Evomutant
Posted 2009-11-10 15:39:14 and read 10666 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 51):
Good to know. If UA wants to lock itself in with one manufacturer i say let them. At least boeing knows now, not to waste their time with UA. Boeing should now ignore UA as well as any other traditionally Airbus operators; they should refuse to do any business with them, especially if their gonna insult their products like they said here. Why waste your time with longshots? concentrate on loyal airlines is whit i think they should do. There are far bigger customers, with much less hostility to boeing than UA.

Give it a break. CO and AA are all Boeing, and will continue to be. It's nothing new.

Boeing will continue to court UA, Airbus will continue to try its luck with AA. If for no other reason than you force your rival to counter slightly, and reduce their margins a little.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-11-10 15:49:19 and read 10632 times.



Quoting Evomutant (Reply 54):
Give it a break. CO and AA are all Boeing, and will continue to be. It's nothing new.

Exactly. That doesn't mean Airbus doesn't try. After all, AA and CO don't buy Boeings because of the looks.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-10 16:07:22 and read 10598 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 51):
There are far bigger customers

I think you'll struggle to find many airlines that are "far" bigger than UA...  Wink

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JRDC930
Posted 2009-11-10 17:03:03 and read 10540 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 53):
Because sometimes it works. Not always, but even if you get one major order, it will have been time well spent

True; but one has towonder about the feasability of this happening, when an airline calls your product "old technology"...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 53):
Plus, what is Boeing supposed to do, turn away airlines that want to replace their A330s with 787s?

No, if they are SERIOUS about looking at it then Boeing should follow up. What i meant was that airlines with little history of showing interest in Boeing, should be ignored, once an airline chooses the A350, boeing should cut off all contact with that airline, especially if short ahul is allso airbus...probably not the best business decision, yes i know, but by doing so boeing might make it a point not to toy around with them. My own non-business oriented opinion is, if you choose to follow one manufacturer only for a long time, be prepared to stick with them. Dont expect the other manufacturer to come groveling, and pricing below cost to get your attention. Change your mind? maybe you shouldnt have chosen an all one manufacturer type fleet. poor business thinking? yes, but thats my humble attitude on the issue.

I really think it was unecessary for UA to display such a hostile attitude toward boeing in that article, same thing goes for airlines leaning toward boeing about airbus.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-10 17:34:19 and read 10503 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 57):
What i meant was that airlines with little history of showing interest in Boeing, should be ignored

Very, very few airlines could be accused of "little history of showing interest in Boeing". Some have ended up ordering rather few (my home carrier, LX, comes to mind) but I bet they looked hard at various Boeing models over the years and will do so again.

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 57):
once an airline chooses the A350, boeing should cut off all contact with that airline

So Boeing should no longer answer calls from Vietnam Airlines, Qatar, Etihad, Aeroflot, Avianca (Synergy), Singapore Airlines or Ethiopian even though they are 787 customers? Amazing.

Nor should they ever do further business with China Airlines, TAM, Asiana, Emirates, US Airways or the other airlines who have ordered the A350?

So the message is: "Buy an Airbus now and we'll never talk to you again. You'll be committed to buying nothing but Airbus in perpetuity." Smart move...

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 57):
if you choose to follow one manufacturer only for a long time

Which very, very few airlines do or have ever done. AA, CO and DL have their legendary exclusivity deals with Boeing (though for how much longer?) but I can't think of a single European or Asian carrier who buys only from one source as a matter of policy.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JRDC930
Posted 2009-11-10 19:04:02 and read 10413 times.



Quoting PM (Reply 58):
So Boeing should no longer answer calls from Vietnam Airlines, Qatar, Etihad, Aeroflot, Avianca (Synergy), Singapore Airlines or Ethiopian even though they are 787 customers? Amazing.

I mean airlines that are EXLCUSIVE to airbus.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-10 19:22:32 and read 10387 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 59):
I mean airlines that are EXLCUSIVE to airbus.

Would you like to list them for us...?

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JRDC930
Posted 2009-11-10 19:37:33 and read 10365 times.



Quoting PM (Reply 60):
Would you like to list them for us

I meant the airlines that only ordered the A350...obviously if they didnt order the 787, but still have short haul boeings they shouldnt ignore them, but if they have neither, like IB, then boeing shouldnt sell to them; they have obviously made their choice.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-10 19:41:02 and read 10360 times.



Quoting PM (Reply 60):
Would you like to list them for us...?

Let me guess.

TAP are all-Airbus and have ordered the A350.
US airways haven't ordered Boeings in a while and have ordered the A350.
Swiss haven't ordered the A350 but they don't fly any Boeings.
It's a while since Finnair ordered any Boeings and they've ordered the A350.
If United commit the treasonous act of ordering the A350 they'll be on the list.
Oh, add Aer Lingus.
Plus Libyan Airlines and Afriqiyah.
Air Asia X.
Hawaiian.
Yemenia.
Kingfisher.

Hey, there's quite a few, aren't there?

So, here's how it works. McNerney writes to the CEOs of all these airlines saying that since they haven't bought Boeings in a while (or ever) they will not now be permitted to do so. They are condemned to buy Airbus for all time.

And that will - what? - punish disloyal airlines? Scare others away from buying the A350? Improve Boeing's bottom line? Give the folks in Toulouse a good laugh?

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-10 19:43:40 and read 10358 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 61):
but if they have neither, like IB, then boeing shouldnt sell to them; they have obviously made their choice.

So next month IB go to Chicago with their chequebook open and say they want 30 787s. You are saying that Boeing should show them the door.

I see.


 Confused  Silly

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-35
Username: United1
Posted 2009-11-10 19:45:16 and read 10357 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 57):
I really think it was unecessary for UA to display such a hostile attitude toward boeing in that article, same thing goes for airlines leaning toward boeing about airbus.

I'm not sure where you are getting hostile from? Its quite possible that the 787 is not capable of performing the missions that UA wants it to that doesn't mean that UA thinks the 787 is a bad aircraft it means that it won't work for them.

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 59):
I mean airlines that are EXLCUSIVE to airbus.

UA is not exclusive to Airbus....some of their newest aircraft are 767/777s

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JRDC930
Posted 2009-11-10 20:06:23 and read 10319 times.



Quoting PM (Reply 62):
So, here's how it works. McNerney writes to the CEOs of all these airlines saying that since they haven't bought Boeings in a while (or ever) they will not now be permitted to do so. They are condemned to buy Airbus for all time

If you read my posts, i never said it was a GOOD business strategy, or that if i was in Boeings position that i would do that. I merely stated that if it were possible, i would like to see this happen. And yes i do think that an airline that operates an all one manufacturer fleet, be it boeing or airbus, they shouldnt expect to be able to get the other manufacturer without making concessions to the manufacture; a price for ignoring them for so long so to speak. Obviously i would never actually implement a strategy like this if i were ever in a position of fleet selection, but its my own little vengeful desire; spured by my somewhat selfish desire to see as many models of aircraft in the liveries of my favorite airlines.  devil 

Quoting PM (Reply 63):
So next month IB go to Chicago with their chequebook open and say they want 30 787s. You are saying that Boeing should show them the door.

You know as well as i do that wont happen. Like i said, reality vs what id like are two different things.

Quoting United1 (Reply 64):
I'm not sure where you are getting hostile from?

The wording...calling the 777-300ER "old technology"... certainly not as bas as some things other airlines have said about Boeing products, but it irks me none the less.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-10 20:12:30 and read 10306 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 65):
i never said it was a GOOD business strategy, or that if i was in Boeings position that i would do that. I merely stated that if it were possible, i would like to see this happen.

Well, you were rather more insistent in your earlier post:

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 57):
What i meant was that airlines with little history of showing interest in Boeing, should be ignored, once an airline chooses the A350, boeing should cut off all contact with that airline

"...SHOULD be ignored..." and " SHOULD cut off all contact..."

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 65):

You know as well as i do that wont happen. Like i said, reality vs what id like are two different things.

You say you are studying aviation management. My advice would be to keep studying...  Big grin

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Jtdieffen
Posted 2009-11-10 20:18:36 and read 10300 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 65):
And yes i do think that an airline that operates an all one manufacturer fleet, be it boeing or airbus, they shouldnt expect to be able to get the other manufacturer without making concessions to the manufacture

Well, not to argue against something that I know from experience to be nothing more than flamebait, but your attitude puts all the responsibility on the airline. Yes, all are out for the best deal possible, but it is possible for the manufacturer to drop the ball too; so how do you determine who crawls back to whom?

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 65):
Quoting United1 (Reply 64):
I'm not sure where you are getting hostile from?

The wording...calling the 777-300ER "old technology"... certainly not as bas as some things other airlines have said about Boeing products, but it irks me none the less.

I would use the term 'flippant' rather than 'hostile.' Frankly, your quote in another thread about Boeing 'screwing up' by not offering an A380 competitor was hostile. $.02

Quoting PM (Reply 66):
Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 65):

You know as well as i do that wont happen. Like i said, reality vs what id like are two different things.

You say you are studying aviation management. My advice would be to keep studying...

My advice is to look for another career. Maybe boxing.  Wink

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: United1
Posted 2009-11-10 20:26:14 and read 10305 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 65):
Quoting United1 (Reply 64):
I'm not sure where you are getting hostile from?

The wording...calling the 777-300ER "old technology"... certainly not as bas as some things other airlines have said about Boeing products, but it irks me none the less.

Well the 777-300ER is current technology and while it is a great and very capable aircraft what UA is looking for is the next generation of aircraft. UA would love to have a fleet of 777-300ERs right now however they are placing an order for aircraft to be delivered over the next 5-7 years. By that point the 350-1000 will be online and is the next generation solution UA is looking for. The 350 family also gives UA the option to replace the 777 farther down the road vs the 787 which is not offered in that size of airframe. This is Airbuses order to loose in my opinion the next best chance for Boeing to sell to UA is probably the 737RS as a future 320/319 replacement. I do think if Boeing offered a 787-10 and/or 787-11 they might have a shot at this order as UA is incredibly keen on the idea of operating a "family" of aircraft.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Jtdieffen
Posted 2009-11-10 20:35:08 and read 10282 times.



Quoting United1 (Reply 68):
Well the 777-300ER is current technology and while it is a great and very capable aircraft what UA is looking for is the next generation of aircraft.

I think that what's ironic about this whole thing is that if couple this statement with the statements about United wanting golden financing, then it really equates to having your cake and eating it too. I have always had a soft spot for United, but I find their attitude somewhat distasteful. It's like walking into a Mercedes dealership, asking for their best car, and then asking them to pay you to buy it. While I know it's not that simple, the information available about this order is very strange. Truthfully, I'm not sure what to think and I'm not sure that calling the 77W 'old technology' and the A350 'new' technology is the only way to look at it, and I'd be surprised if that's really how United is handling the situation. Frankly, they knew that up front, so why issue and RFP, just buy direct.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: United1
Posted 2009-11-10 20:44:07 and read 10266 times.



Quoting Jtdieffen (Reply 69):
I think that what's ironic about this whole thing is that if couple this statement with the statements about United wanting golden financing, then it really equates to having your cake and eating it too. I have always had a soft spot for United, but I find their attitude somewhat distasteful.

More then likely those comments were taken out of the initial negotiating platform that UA opened with. I'm sure even UA doesn't even expect to get those terms but like any negotiation you start with terms incredibly favorable to you and work your way twords an agreement that both parties can live with. Just like buying a car your not going to walk into a dealership and offer to pay sticker....

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JRDC930
Posted 2009-11-10 21:30:32 and read 10224 times.



Quoting Jtdieffen (Reply 67):
My advice is to look for another career. Maybe boxing.

Did you read my whole post? I never said what i wanted was a good strategy, i said it was based on my own personal and selfish desire to keep seing Boeings in UA livery...you dont think id actually argue something like that to my professors do you? Geeze...read what i say. Perhaps i should have been more clear....

Even though i personally love Airbus aircraft as a passenger, i hate to see US airlines buy foreign aircraft, for protectionist economic reasons...you happy? The A350 may well be a better plane for them, but i would PREFER for totally personal and political reasons to see all US carriers go with boeing...less spotting variety i know. I also dont like to see my countries top aircraft manufacturer get treated as 3rd rate by airlines. I would like to see aircraft purchasing decisions influenced more by the manufacturer than by the airline as well. My THEORETICAL idea was basically for boeing to get revenge by letting airlines pay monopoly prices to airbus, once boeing refused to do business with them. Ive clarified my comments, lets not turn this into an Airbus vs Boeing flamefest. I promise i will make no further comments as to who i would prefer to see order what. OK?  flamed 

Quoting PM (Reply 66):
"...SHOULD be ignored..." and " SHOULD cut off all contact

Poor wording on my part.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Astuteman
Posted 2009-11-10 21:41:33 and read 10217 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 57):
No, if they are SERIOUS about looking at it then Boeing should follow up. What i meant was that airlines with little history of showing interest in Boeing, should be ignored, once an airline chooses the A350, boeing should cut off all contact with that airline

Are you serious?
There's NO airline that shows NO interest in one of the two major airframers. All of them have a duty of care to consider alternative products. There may be a number of reasons why they end up choosing from one.
UA may have looked at the A350 vs the 777 and concluded that the A350 better suits their needs as it stands. But the last thing Boeing should do is cut off relationships with them.

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 57):
I really think it was unecessary for UA to display such a hostile attitude toward boeing in that article

It's entirely possible that UA are ACTUALLY saying to Boeing. "Look. Upgrade the 777 with some new tech, and we'll be seriously interested".
That's "negotiating".
And Boeing would be insane not to listen to the feedback, however it is presented.
UA would be a very long way from being the only airline to negotiate with the OEM via the press.

Rgds

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2009-11-10 21:46:48 and read 10220 times.

As for the UA order, putting Boeing and Airbus aside, it was my understanding that the order they're shopping is for the narrow body fleet, so I'm not sure why there is so much wide-body speculation here. A wide-body order is probably a couple of years away at least.

However, to further add to the speculation, I suspect Airbus will get the narrow order for an advanced A-321 which will give UA cockpit commonality Boeing will end up being the wide-body supplier with UA going for the 789 and yes, I think a few 747-8i's. They'll need a VLA for a few select routes over the Pacific and the A 380 is simply too much of an airplane.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: JRDC930
Posted 2009-11-10 21:58:26 and read 10210 times.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 72):
Are you serious?

In all actuality no. read post 71 and you'll see why. I did not make things clear from the start that the treatment i suggested boeing use toward airlines, was just my personal revenge fantasy...im well aware that boeing cant afford to ignore any customers, as much as i would like them too. Sorry for not being clear.  embarrassed 

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 72):
UA would be a very long way from being the only airline to negotiate with the OEM via the press.

Im aware of that, doesnt mean i agree with it though, or that i think its the best negotiating tool, it almost seems like they are playing blind mans bluff.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-10 22:00:36 and read 10214 times.



Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 73):
it was my understanding that the order they're shopping is for the narrow body fleet, so I'm not sure why there is so much wide-body speculation here. A wide-body order is probably a couple of years away at least.

I'm afraid you're a bit out of the loop.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oser-to-fleet-revamp-decision.html

It's a widebody order + 757 replacement.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Columba
Posted 2009-11-11 02:15:34 and read 10073 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 71):
hate to see US airlines buy foreign aircraft, for protectionist economic reasons...you happy?

Then you have the wrong job. What would you say if Air France/KLM, British Airways, Iberia, Lufthansa would stop buying Boeing aircraft for the same reason.
Air Canada dropping all Embraers, Boeings and Airbusses for Bombardier aircraft, Russia all western manufacturers in favor of Tupolevs and Illuyshins etc.....these days are over.

Air France/KLM is the greatest operator of 777s, Lufthansa launch customer of the 747-8I and Northwest at one point was the largest A333 operator.
We live in globalised world and many people in the US are working for EADS/Airbus. They sure are happy if UA would order Airbus aircraft as well as Boeing employers when Air France is ordering 777s

You can not expect the whole world buying Boeing aircraft but the US closing their market for other manufacturers. It is a free market

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-11 02:22:33 and read 10055 times.



Quoting Columba (Reply 76):
Northwest at one point was the largest A333 operator.

Not to detract from your fine post (with which I wholly agree) but there's a nit here I need to pick and that is that the NW fleet was/is a mixture of A333s and A332s. If you're just going on A333s then Cathay has the largest fleet.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2009-11-11 07:13:31 and read 9941 times.



Quoting PM (Reply 75):
'm afraid you're a bit out of the loop.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

I hadn't seen that quote. However, wasn't the original RFP for narrow-body fleet replacement only? If UA plans to order some wide-body aircraft as well, it could very well mean some 787's are in the mix as the 332 and 333 are simply too big as a replacement for the 757. Still believe an upgraded 321 will be the bulk of the order for the reason stated earlier.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: EA772LR
Posted 2009-11-11 07:41:10 and read 9864 times.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Theortically I could see the Pacific carriers (UA, DL) going for the A350-900 or A350-900R. For airlines wih strong Atlantic - Middle South America networks the 787-9 (and a possible high capasity medium range 787-10) seems better suited (AA, CO, US) IMO.

I personally don't really see the need for the A359R. Unless Airbus can upgrade the A359 relatively inexpensively, I just don't see the need. The baseline A359 has more than enough range for most operations. Just remember that Airbus will continuously upgrade the A350, so they may not need to necessarily create an ULH derivative.

As for the 787-the 787s will have more than enough range to do all transpac routes from anywhere on the west coast, as well as east coast (JFK-HKG/EWR-PVG/etc.) The A350 will have more payload, but it's also a larger plane.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Rheinwaldner
Posted 2009-11-11 07:46:44 and read 9847 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 71):
Even though i personally love Airbus aircraft as a passenger, i hate to see US airlines buy foreign aircraft, for protectionist economic reasons...you happy?

Protectionism of this kind will ultimatively lead to weak airlines. You give away a lot of competitiveness for no benefit if you exclude half of the world markets offering right from the start. It would be a huge advantage for non US-airlines, if they have double the number of options to select the best one. I dare to say this would be the best strategy to end any remarkable presence of US airlines on this planet.

Better don't hope that airlines willingly restrict themselves from choosing an appropriate solution. And please notice: not only Boeing offers appropriate solutions from time to time...

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Ivo
Posted 2009-11-11 07:47:26 and read 9845 times.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 71):
My THEORETICAL idea was basically for boeing to get revenge by letting airlines pay monopoly prices to airbus, once boeing refused to do business with them.

You can turn this around, just think of EL AL. Airbus has given up hope to sell something to them.

Ivo

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2009-11-11 08:18:35 and read 9776 times.



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 23):
So, again I will ask you as in the past, on exactly what basis does someone without any experience definitively claim to know what aircraft an airline specifically needs/doesn't need to perform it's operations



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 24):
If the 744 are such money makers why is it that they are pretty much doing charter work and have some of the lowest number of routes?
LAX-NRT
ATL-NRT
DTW-NRT
MSP-NRT
DTW-NGO 5x weekly.
and a few NRT turns
with 16 airplanes.

You still haven't answered AirNZ's question, about having zero airline experience, be such an expert on any airlines equipment needs. This question has been asked of you in the past, yet continues to be glossed over. Not asking about your opinions on these matters since that is what this board is about, but your seemingly absolute knowledge.

Topic: RE: Which US Carrier Likely To Order B-787 Or A-350
Username: PM
Posted 2009-11-11 15:50:49 and read 9601 times.



Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 78):
However, wasn't the original RFP for narrow-body fleet replacement only?

No.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 78):
If UA plans to order some wide-body aircraft as well

I think you're still missing the point. This order is top down, not bottom up. It's a widebody order plus some 757 replacements, not a narrowbody order with the 757s at the top end.

Why would UA say they aren't considering the A380 or 748i if they are looking for narrowbodies?


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