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Topic: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Comorin
Posted 2009-12-02 06:16:25 and read 15926 times.

Was going to post this myself, but saw Tharanga's post buried in Indian Civ Av. Thought this link deserved a wider pilot audience - Didn't think you could pull breakers willy-nilly especially during flight ...

The article points out that a 9W check pilot reaches from the jump seat and yanks a circuit breaker to 'test' the PF's reaction on flying the aircraft during landing. This is on a commercial flight with plenty of souls on board. Is this normal practice?

Quoting Tharanga (Reply 64):
check pilot messes with aircraft in flight.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...Jet-flight/articleshow/5290059.cms

I'd like to see this from an aviation news source. Sounds crazy from this article, though.


[Edited 2009-12-02 06:17:03 by comorin]

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Avroarrow
Posted 2009-12-02 06:36:12 and read 15804 times.

Not the worst thing to test somebody for, but I agree that it was the wrong place to do it. They invented simulators for a reason.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Larshjort
Posted 2009-12-02 06:39:46 and read 15790 times.

Which circuitbreaker was it?

/Lars

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: N14AZ
Posted 2009-12-02 06:57:58 and read 15672 times.

I thought it was now "common knowledge" what can happen if you pull a circuit breaker:

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Photo © Zubova Marina

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Tharanga
Posted 2009-12-02 08:16:23 and read 15321 times.

Is there any precedent for a check pilot to actually cause a challenging situation on a real flight?

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2009-12-02 09:12:50 and read 14992 times.



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 5):
Is there any precedent for a check pilot to actually cause a challenging situation on a real flight?

I don't think so. Way too many aircraft were crashed before simulators doing stuff like this.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: ZBBYLW
Posted 2009-12-02 09:26:00 and read 14906 times.

Seeing how the pilot was a Check Pilot, my bets are that it was an Expat. IMO he took this way to far and because of his status as an Expat, my bets is he is already gone.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2009-12-02 09:45:03 and read 14758 times.



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 8):
Seeing how the pilot was a Check Pilot, my bets are that it was an Expat. IMO he took this way to far and because of his status as an Expat, my bets is he is already gone.

Was it a 737 or a 777....? Or maybe an A330....? Where was this plane flying from to BOM...?

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Tharanga
Posted 2009-12-02 09:49:21 and read 14726 times.



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9):
Was it a 737 or a 777....?

that flight is usually a 739, I think. what it was that day, i can't say.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: YWG
Posted 2009-12-02 10:44:44 and read 14329 times.

Check Captains/Pilots pull CB's all the time. Half the time the pilot wont notice something is wrong until they need that function.

It happens on revenue flights, but to not-so-important instruments or systems. Ie) Pulling the nav radio CB's during an ILS approach (probably not a good idea).

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: FXramper
Posted 2009-12-02 10:48:03 and read 14236 times.

Jet Airways said, that the airplane never left any of the operational limits and actually never exceeded acceptable parameters. The crew did not receive any EGPWS warning or announciations after the circuit breaker was tripped. The observer's check pilot status has been suspended pending the investigation results.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9):
Was it a 737 or a 777....? Or maybe an A330


VT-JGC is a 739.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Modesto2
Posted 2009-12-02 12:12:12 and read 12790 times.

Interesting tactic... At my airline, I've never witnessed (and I could never imagine) a check airman pulling a CB on a revenue flight. In the flight simulator, instructors give us all kinds of problems, but they don't need to pull CBs to create problems - they have computers that can wreak havoc!

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Jayeshrulz
Posted 2009-12-02 12:23:31 and read 12601 times.

i know this is silly but i'm a newbie here..

what is a circut breaker and where is it located?
thanks alot!!

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: MPDPilot
Posted 2009-12-02 12:45:48 and read 12275 times.



Quoting Jayeshrulz (Reply 15):
what is a circut breaker and where is it located?

A circut breaker is essencially a fuse that when current exceeds a certain perameter it disconnects the component that it is protecting. The difference between a circut breaker and fuse is that a circut breaker can usually be reset where as a fuse must be replaced. In an airliner there are hundreds of circut breakers located in the cockpit that protect every electrical system on the airplane from overload. When one is "pulled" it disconnects the component rendering it useless. It is something that was common place for a while in FAA Checkrides for pilot licensing but this has since changed and I beleve (at least in the US) Check Airmen are not allowed to pull circut breakers inflight, with the exception of circut breakers that are pulled for a proceedure. For example in the Beech Bonanza we have to pull the Landing Gear Motor CB when we manually extend the gear. Airliners don't typically have that proceedure as the systems are integrated better.

Depending on what was pulled in this case I would say this either falls into the category of "bad idea" or "willfully endangering passengers". Most likely it was just a bad idea that shouldn't be repeated.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Bobbyskipper
Posted 2009-12-02 13:40:15 and read 11486 times.

I guess some airlines have a different philosophy regarding line training. But personally I think pulling CB's for training purposes on any flight, other than in a simulator, should be avoided.

There have been bad accidents caused by pulling CB's! Mostly because more systems or sub-systems than stated at the CB panel are affected. A simulator is the best place for abnormal training. Why do it on a real flight with passengers on board?

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Caboclo
Posted 2009-12-02 14:39:26 and read 10710 times.

As in most situations, it's probably best not to make generalizations; ie "Thou shalt never pull a CB." Do you want to live in a world where your every action is regulated, or would you prefer to rely on common sense? Yes, I know common sense is sadly lacking in many people, but many of those people are the ones who will be writing the legislation governing your every action. There is no perfection, no complete safety in this life. Ok, enough politics. In real life, pulling CBs in flight is quite common, at least in older and/or simpler planes. It just requires good judgment on the part of the check airman as to which system to fail at which time. The check airman must have a good knowledge of aircraft systems, in order to keep from inadvertently failing a secondary system, and yes, that is a much greater consideration on modern airliners, due to their increased complexity and integration. Simulators are a wonderful training tool, but there is still a place for some real-life training.

The news article says the CB in question was the #1 Radar Altimeter, which subsequently knocked out the auto-pilot and flight director, causing an increased rate of descent. An unnamed official is quoted as saying "A pilot can do the job of an autopilot; he can land, albeit with difficulty, without the help of a flight director." But that's a whole different rant; don't get me started.

[Edited 2009-12-02 14:45:34]

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Falstaff
Posted 2009-12-02 17:38:25 and read 8886 times.



Quoting Jayeshrulz (Reply 15):
what is a circut breaker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker

They come in all kinds of sizes and types, but they all do the same thing. They protect an electrical circuit from overload.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2009-12-02 18:32:16 and read 8395 times.



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
Didn't think you could pull breakers willy-nilly especially during flight ...

Circuit breakers are designed so that they can be manually pulled. This is so that, if, for example, an electrical fire starts, and you know (via the QRH) which breaker(s) feed the circuit, you can stop it by pulling the breaker.

Circuit breakers aren't 100% foolproof  Wink I had an electrical fire in an outdoor breaker panel at my house, once, caused by a short circuit in an underground direct burial electrical cable. I stopped it with a fire extinguisher and by turning off the breaker to the breaker panel  Smile (located in the garage...)

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Comorin
Posted 2009-12-02 19:05:05 and read 8067 times.



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
Didn't think you could pull breakers willy-nilly especially during flight ...

Circuit breakers are designed so that they can be manually pulled. This is so that, if, for example, an electrical fire starts, and you know (via the QRH) which breaker(s) feed the circuit, you can stop it by pulling the breaker.

Appreciate the explanation, thanks. Did this act put the flight at risk?

The Times of India reports that the check pilot has lost his check status and the two pilots have been derostered pending investigation. My guess is that the Check Pilot was probably an old Air Force type used to aggressive training techniques! As long as he didn't whack the PF on the back of the head I'm OK.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: 727forever
Posted 2009-12-02 19:31:46 and read 7792 times.



Quoting YWG (Reply 11):
Check Captains/Pilots pull CB's all the time. Half the time the pilot wont notice something is wrong until they need that function.

It happens on revenue flights, but to not-so-important instruments or systems. Ie) Pulling the nav radio CB's during an ILS approach (probably not a good idea).

I'm not sure what airline you are associated with, but I don't wish to ever find myself on it. For a Check Pilot/Airman to intentionally cause a degradation of aircraft systems to test a pilot on a line check in a revenue flight is beyond reprehensible. A check pilots job is to monitor the activities of the flight crew to ensure safe operation and standard procedure during normal operations or the handling of non-normal operations should one occur. To create an abnormal situation is akin to disruption of a flight crew in their duties. The only time the check pilot should really say anything or do anything other than writing down items to be debriefed is if the crew puts the aircraft into jeopardy. Otherwise, they are there to observe. If this article is correct, the check pilot should be fired and be looked at by the regulating authority.

727forever

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Simpilot459
Posted 2009-12-02 19:41:53 and read 7679 times.

I had a flight instructor who would pull circuit breakers all the time. It's really good training when I didn't see him doing it. While I agree it want the best idea in this case, it wasn't the near disaster they make it out to be. As crazy as it sounds, the plane will still actually fly without the autopilot, FD, or GPWS.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Tharanga
Posted 2009-12-02 19:41:59 and read 7679 times.

This discussion has many contradictory opinions in it, from people purporting to know what they're talking about. Perhaps check rides are a little different outside the commercial setting?

Quoting 727forever (Reply 22):
For a Check Pilot/Airman to intentionally cause a degradation of aircraft systems to test a pilot on a line check in a revenue flight is beyond reprehensible. A check pilots job is to monitor the activities of the flight crew to ensure safe operation and standard procedure during normal operations or the handling of non-normal operations should one occur.

This reply sounds sensible to me, and is consistent with this blogger, for whatever that's worth.

http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/200...f-aviation-incidents-in-india.html

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: 727forever
Posted 2009-12-02 20:04:44 and read 7450 times.



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 24):
This reply sounds sensible to me, and is consistent with this blogger, for whatever that's worth.

I was a check airman at a previous airline. I also did quite a bit of training work for our pilot union. I'm not educated on other countries, but in the USA this type of activity is in contridiction to order 8400.10 The Inspectors Handbook which governs the activities of FAA Inspectors, Designated Examiners, and Check Airmen.

727forever

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2009-12-02 21:01:11 and read 7149 times.



Quoting Jayeshrulz (Reply 15):
what is a circut breaker and where is it located?
thanks alot!!


Located in series with the circuit,trips or breaks the contact in case of excessive current flow past the point.This prevents a fire due a short circuit.when tripped the white surface is exposed.

On the B739,the CB panels are located on the aft wall of the flight deck behind the Capt & F/O seats.named P18 & p6 respectively.

regds
MEL.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Crjfixer
Posted 2009-12-02 21:24:09 and read 6930 times.



Quoting YWG (Reply 11):
Check Captains/Pilots pull CB's all the time. Half the time the pilot wont notice something is wrong until they need that function.

It happens on revenue flights, but to not-so-important instruments or systems. Ie) Pulling the nav radio CB's during an ILS approach (probably not a good idea).

On the ground yes...No cb can be manually pulled in flight (At least in the US and i would suspect its the same everywhere else)

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
No CB can be manually pulled during flight,On ground,CB is pulled only for Maintenance purposes.

^^ this is the correct statement

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-12-02 22:33:50 and read 6490 times.



Quoting Simpilot459 (Reply 23):
I had a flight instructor who would pull circuit breakers all the time. It's really good training when I didn't see him doing it. While I agree it want the best idea in this case, it wasn't the near disaster they make it out to be. As crazy as it sounds, the plane will still actually fly without the autopilot, FD, or GPWS.

Pulling breakers in little training aircraft is a lot different than doing it in an airliner with paying passengers onboard.

This check guy apparently forgot that there is a recent crash on record in the 737NG where a bad RA played a key role. That's a very good reason to train pilots on how to handle that situation, but it's also a very good reason to do in a simulator and not in the actual airplane, especially not with pax onboard.

-Mir

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Flyboyseven
Posted 2009-12-02 22:55:45 and read 6459 times.



Quoting Crjfixer (Reply 27):
No cb can be manually pulled in flight

Just to clarify this statement, the circuit breakers CAN physicly be pulled during flight, but cannot be in practice because of regulations. Is that correct?

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-12-02 23:17:00 and read 6288 times.



Quoting Flyboyseven (Reply 29):
Just to clarify this statement, the circuit breakers CAN physicly be pulled during flight, but cannot be in practice because of regulations. Is that correct?

Correct (well, mostly correct, since we've already seen an aircraft - the Falcon 7X - with electronic circuit breakers, which can't be manually pulled, and that's likely to migrate over to commercial airliners in the future). But it's generally not so much a matter of regulations as it is a matter of the manufacturers not authorizing it for their airplanes.

-Mir

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: ThirtyEcho
Posted 2009-12-02 23:57:30 and read 5982 times.

Back in the day, check pilots used to really fail systems in flight tests but never on passenger carrying flights.

I can remember the FAA inspector who really shut down an engine on multi check rides and the FAA check pilot who covered up the attitude indicator, heading indicator and even airspeed indicator on instrument flight tests. Some of this was practical and a lot of it was deadly dangerous. Yes, one should be able to fly needle, ball, airspeed in a flight test and even fly needle, ball, power with a failed airspeed indicator but the real safety of the flight should not be compromised.

To do this on a revenue flight is unconscionable.

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: N49WA
Posted 2009-12-03 00:37:08 and read 5732 times.



Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 6):
Quoting Tharanga (Reply 5):
Is there any precedent for a check pilot to actually cause a challenging situation on a real flight?.

http://www.transoceanairlines.com/sisto.html

"...The American Airlines DC-4 aircraft was on a flight from Dallas to Los Angeles, flying at night, at 10,000 feet. just east of El Paso, with 54 people on board. The captain was Jack Beck and the copilot was F. Logan. Also on board was American Airlines check captain Charles "Chuck" Sisto. The flight was just west of El Paso at 10,000 feet when Sisto engaged in a little frivolity that almost killed everyone on board..."

Topic: RE: 9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing
Username: LHR380
Posted 2009-12-03 01:52:07 and read 5220 times.

They sure are very easy to pull. Remember the Fed Ex incident in the US where a worker went nuts and tried to kill everyone?

3 or 4 times prior to take off he pulled the CVR breaker, but the co pilot kept noticing it was popping and put it back (Not realizing it was the attempted killer doing it)


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