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Topic: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2009-12-31 11:21:59 and read 14105 times.

Hey all,

Right now, a fellow a.nut buddy of mine is stuck in LIM trying to nonrev home. The last two days he's tried to nonrev on DL's LIM-ATL, both on the 764 on the 772ER, with no success. Both days, the flights went wide open - the 764 had about 25 open in BusinessElite while the 772ER had 45 opening in BusinessElite plus room to spare in Coach.

The agents told him he won't be leaving LIM on DL for awhile, so he's started trying to get out on AA who, over the last 5 days, has left LIM completely full on every flight, both 763 and 757. No denied boardings to nonrevs due to weight limits.

So my question is this... with ATL only about 500 miles further from LIM than MIA, why does DL have such significant weight limits, even on a 777-200ER?? This route is only about 6.5 hours, and yet a 772ER can't go full?? So why the HUGE restriction?? High airfield elevation, short runway, or are there greater aircraft performance requirements or maybe more demanding engine-out performance??

Either way, I'm still a bit perplexed as to how AA 763's and 757's can go full while DL 764's and 772ER's take significant limits.




[Edited 2009-12-31 12:00:15]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Globaldude
Posted 2009-12-31 11:27:09 and read 14069 times.

Bags and Cargo are the most likely reasons for this

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2009-12-31 11:29:17 and read 14054 times.



Quoting Globaldude (Reply 1):
Bags and Cargo are the most likely reasons for this

A 777-200ER is supposed to be able to go 13-15 hours with full pax, bags, and cargo. LIM-ATL is only 6.5 hours, so there is definitely something else causing this.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Thenoflyzone
Posted 2009-12-31 11:32:53 and read 14023 times.

cargo has priority over nonrev no? LIM is a HUGE cargo route.

There is nothing else causing this. They are picking up cargo before nonrevs.

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2009-12-31 11:37:23 and read 13996 times.

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 3):
There is nothing else causing this. They are picking up cargo before nonrevs.

At MAXIMUM payload, a 777-200ER's range in 5500nm, which is *well* beyond the 2760nm distance of LIM-ATL.

So even if DL put on a maximum cargo weight, bringing the aircraft to MZFW of 430,000#, it could still fly 5500nm. Again, something else is causing this.

[Edited 2009-12-31 11:42:05]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-12-31 11:42:02 and read 13942 times.

i've had bad experiences dealing with the CO staff as well. If it was like my experience, they didn't think there was enough time to clear me at the ticket counter to get down to the gate in time for a departure.

Something doens't seem right either......if you can get 2-3 halfweights counted, you can get one person on. Who knows if they are calculating that as well. I'd tell your buddy to be on the lookout for the crew as its coming to the airport and have a talk with them and see what they say. B/C I doubt they are running up against the ZFW or any other limitation.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2009-12-31 11:42:40 and read 13940 times.

Bags and cargo always go before nonrevs, plus on some routes, there are significant terrain issues that can cause a weight limitation.

If a specific route allows all the revenue payload to be carried, but no more, then I am not going to reroute to accomodate nonrevenue payload.

I remember when the 764 operated LIMATL that many routes out of LIM had SIGNIFICANT terrain issues. I cant imagine a B777 to be much better...

As for half weights, when a flight is weight restricted (called Payload Optimized in DL-speak) one thing the station is responsible is getting a very accurate kid count so they can determine the final allowable cabin payload.

My guess, without seeing a release, is the driftdown requirements of the terrain north of the area.

[Edited 2009-12-31 11:45:48 by dispatchguy]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: CAP2008
Posted 2009-12-31 11:44:19 and read 13917 times.

Haha, thanks Matt. Glad to see my epic FAIL of getting home making it to CivAv :P

Just a little background info- LIM is basically right at sea level (113ft), temps are consistently in the 60's, as DL 150 departs at 0130 under full cover of dark. The runway is ~11500ft, which is pretty much on par with any other major airport. Most pax do pack heavy on this route, I'd say an average of 1.75 (heavy) checked bags per person.

I'd take a shot in the dark and just say that DL has some sort of exclusive contract for some type of dense cargo. just my  twocents 

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Western727
Posted 2009-12-31 11:46:14 and read 13902 times.

Isn't LIM a high-altitude airport? Perhaps that's a factor?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Peanuts
Posted 2009-12-31 11:48:37 and read 13893 times.

Is your friend a DL employee? Buddypass?
He should be able to get to the source then and find out if there are any embargo's or other travel warnings.
A friend recently told me DL has warned their employees (by memo) about, amongst others, LIM-ATL and JNB-ATL nonrev due to operational limits and extra cargo.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2009-12-31 11:53:54 and read 13866 times.

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 6):
My guess, without seeing a release, is the driftdown requirements of the terrain north of the area.

*facepalm*

I'll pull up a release and see if I can't find out the details. Good idea, haha.

In any case, why would AA be able to go full all the time?? AA has huge cargo contracts to and through MIA, so I'd imagine they carry just as much cargo, if not more, out of LIM.

Quoting CAP2008 (Reply 7):
Haha, thanks Matt. Glad to see my epic FAIL of getting home making it to CivAv

I would say "I told you so", but considering how I personally recommended taking the 777, I don't have much room to talk  

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 10):
Is your friend a DL employee? Buddypass?

He travels on S2/S3, the highest possible NRSA priorities.

[Edited 2009-12-31 11:54:35]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: LAXtoATL
Posted 2009-12-31 11:54:46 and read 13860 times.

It is likely a combination of cargo and terrain. Although the cargo wouldn't limit a 77E range wise it can prevent the aircraft from achieving necessary altitude quickly enough to safely pass elevated terrains without having to re-route.

I know that DL carries a LOT of cargo out of Lima, I am not as certain but pretty sure that there are some pretty steep mountain ranges in the area.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Wight Restrictions?
Username: Peanuts
Posted 2009-12-31 11:59:21 and read 13815 times.

Would it have anything to do with the direction of take-off??? (mountains in the way?) If winds change and a different runway direction is utilized, he may have more luck getting out. I don't know how LIM is set-up.
Gluck CAP2008. New Year's eve in Peru huh. lol.

[Edited 2009-12-31 12:07:37]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-12-31 12:02:15 and read 13772 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 11):
He travels on S2/S3, the highest possible NRSA priorities

well, if he would be #1, you calculate 3 half weights, he can get on.........so something seems fishy.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CitationJet
Posted 2009-12-31 12:27:43 and read 13648 times.



Quoting Western727 (Reply 8):
Isn't LIM a high-altitude airport? Perhaps that's a factor?

No, Lima's airport elevation is 113 ft. Lima sits on the Pacific coast; LIM airport is lower elevation than LAX, which is 126 ft.

.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: KL911
Posted 2009-12-31 13:00:53 and read 13545 times.

I don't get this. KLM flies LIM-AMS daily with a 772ER with a full payload.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-12-31 13:13:13 and read 13480 times.



Quoting KL911 (Reply 18):
I don't get this. KLM flies LIM-AMS daily with a 772ER with a full payload

we need to get ourselves a copy of the RLS!!

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2009-12-31 14:15:44 and read 13309 times.



Quoting CAP2008 (Reply 7):
I'd take a shot in the dark and just say that DL has some sort of exclusive contract for some type of dense cargo. just my

you can not emagine how packed is DL with cargo.
Just to get a idea, minimum pivot weight for a LD7 position is 3000kgs / normal in the industry is 1650kgs. The point is that we are currently at the hight season for asparagues, which is high dense cargo, I am sure that the DL 777 goes with average 25.000 to 35.000 kgs of cargo out of LIM.

cheers and regards from Lima.

Avianca

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2009-12-31 14:19:00 and read 13297 times.



Quoting Avianca (Reply 20):
cheers and regards from Lima.

Thanks for the info!!!

Do you know, does AA carry the same, or similar, cargo loads out of LIM that DL does??

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2009-12-31 14:23:29 and read 13275 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 21):
Do you know, does AA carry the same, or similar, cargo loads out of LIM that DL does??

yes, to be honest, in high season all carriers out of Lima are fully loaded with cargo.
Big advantage is that AA carries the big bunch of the cargo on the 767 flight, on morning 757 flight mostly only express freight.

Cheers
Avianca

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CV880
Posted 2009-12-31 14:24:07 and read 13258 times.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
A 777-200ER is supposed to be able to go 13-15 hours with full pax, bags, and cargo. LIM-ATL is only 6.5 hours, so there is definitely something else causing this.

It could very well be balance issues esp with the 764. If the fwd cargo bin is heavier than the aft end, then NRSA would be left off in business/first class. Since the 764 carries the large pallets only in the fwd bin & heavy with produce, that would explain it. The same problem exists from SCL. One would have to have a copy of the weight data record to see the reason.

As for AA, the 757's should 99.9% of the time never have weight issues & the 763's don't usually have the balance issues of the 764's.

[Edited 2009-12-31 14:27:08]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2009-12-31 14:28:28 and read 13236 times.



Quoting Avianca (Reply 20):
currently at the hight season for asparagues,

 checkmark  and the reason why DL has consistently flown large aircraft down to LIM.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 21):
Do you know, does AA carry the same, or similar, cargo loads out of LIM that DL does??

Yes on its widebodies. The 757s not so much as asparagus is normaly containerized.

To give you an idea of how big this business is, airlines operate 747F down to LIM solely for the asparagus load.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: BinMonster
Posted 2009-12-31 14:30:36 and read 13231 times.

LIM - ATL just set a cargo record
On Thursday 03DEC, Delta Flight 150 from Lima, Peru, to Atlanta set a cargo record for the highest number of tonnage carried out of Latin America and Lima with 75,654 pounds of cargo.

The LIM team bulk loaded a 160 bags to make room for cargo.

I checked todays flight, empty seats but only confirmed passengers on-board
over 45,000 cargo today.

Flight 150 is listed on Pass Travel Alert Page.
The flight is being payload optimized

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Floridaflyboy
Posted 2009-12-31 14:36:45 and read 13957 times.



Quoting CAP2008 (Reply 7):
I'd take a shot in the dark and just say that DL has some sort of exclusive contract for some type of dense cargo. just my

That's gotta be the case!! I've noticed on DLnet, they've been posting travel warnings for the Lima flight virtually every week warning non-revs not to try these flights due to cargo weight restrictions.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2009-12-31 14:39:52 and read 13926 times.

Yep, the Asparagus I just bought at Safeway says "Produce of Peru". Now I know how it gets here!

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CV880
Posted 2009-12-31 14:42:54 and read 13901 times.



Quoting BinMonster (Reply 25):
I checked todays flight, empty seats but only confirmed passengers on-board
over 45,000 cargo today.

And the empty seats are in the front end, probably for balance, not necessarily weight.
It's the one big disadvantage of a full cargo load on a 764.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2009-12-31 14:50:49 and read 14511 times.



Quoting Avianca (Reply 22):
Big advantage is that AA carries the big bunch of the cargo on the 767 flight,

Yea but it seems that the AA 763 is able to go out full - at least the past 5 days it has taken nonrevs until there are no seats left aboard.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 23):
If the fwd cargo bin is heavier than the aft end, then NRSA would be left off in business/first class.

I understand that on the 764 it is a real problem, but I was very surprised to hear this on a 772ER as the 777 has the large cargo doors on both the fwd and the aft, and can take pallets in the aft in addition to the LD3's.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
Yes on its widebodies. The 757s not so much as asparagus is normaly containerized.

Interestingly, today's 763 went totally full (30J/195Y) while the 757 went with a 4-seat weight limit in Y. Not substantial, but can make a difference  Silly

Quoting BinMonster (Reply 25):
LIM - ATL just set a cargo record
On Thursday 03DEC, Delta Flight 150 from Lima, Peru, to Atlanta set a cargo record for the highest number of tonnage carried out of Latin America and Lima with 75,654 pounds of cargo.

Yikes.

Time to bring back the old NW 742F's!!  laughing 

Quoting BinMonster (Reply 25):
Flight 150 is listed on Pass Travel Alert Page.

Where do I find this page?? I gave TravelNet a [very] quick look, but couldn't find it??

Quoting CV880 (Reply 28):
It's the one big disadvantage of a full cargo load on a 764.

763's too, depending on how long the route is. Back when AA used to operate ORD-EZE, I nonrev'd the route in June 2008 and on the EZE-ORD flight they told me the flight may become balance critical, and if that were the case I'd be rerouted through MIA on the 777's. Luckily the 763 pulled through for me, as the entire point of my trip was to nonrev the route before it went away  Smile

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2009-12-31 14:52:20 and read 14586 times.

By the way, thanks to everyone for all the quick responses. Looks like it's up to AA to bring the nonrevs home  Big grin


Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2009-12-31 15:23:33 and read 14361 times.



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
To give you an idea of how big this business is, airlines operate 747F down to LIM solely for the asparagus load.

we are talking about 50.000 tons in high season months, only of asparagus... but the market is not a easy market for the carriers as the rates are going daily up and down...

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 27):
Yep, the Asparagus I just bought at Safeway says "Produce of Peru". Now I know how it gets here!

yep, just fyi, DL moves nearly 0% asparagus for the US market, as most freight is transit to LHR, AMS, CDG.

Nearly all US asparagus is moved on QT, JW, WE, UC, 5Y freither to MIA, and a little bit with LA to JFK and LAX on the pax flights.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-12-31 15:29:07 and read 14298 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 4):
So even if DL put on a maximum cargo weight, bringing the aircraft to MZFW of 430,000#, it could still fly 5500nm. Again, something else is causing this.

Keep in mind that if DL fills up the aircraft to MZFW with cargo, they can't put any more pax on. So how far they're going doesn't really matter.

-Mir

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-12-31 16:15:49 and read 14140 times.



Quoting BinMonster (Reply 25):
I checked todays flight, empty seats but only confirmed passengers on-board
over 45,000 cargo today.

was there any payload remaining?

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 30):
By the way, thanks to everyone for all the quick responses. Looks like it's up to AA to bring the nonrevs home

I ended up taking CM through PTY..........try that?

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
Keep in mind that if DL fills up the aircraft to MZFW with cargo, they can't put any more pax on. So how far they're going doesn't really matter.

no, but are they calculating half weights?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-12-31 16:22:22 and read 14084 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 33):
no, but are they calculating half weights?

One would hope so if they apply.

-Mir

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2009-12-31 16:22:28 and read 14170 times.

having seen DL's weight and data records for multiple aircraft types on LIM-ATL, I can tell you that DL fills the a/c to max landing weight in ATL which is the limiting factor on weight. They can easily put as much cargo on LIM as they want this time of year; the lower fuel weight required actually provides more room for cargo but you can't go above max landing weight at destination.

Latin America cargo is highly profitable this time of year from all destinations. 60K is not at all uncommon from LIM and SCL.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: DL Widget Head
Posted 2009-12-31 17:01:18 and read 14018 times.

Don't know if this is the reason or not but when I was at EA, they would tanker fuel into LIM on the L1011 so that they did not have to buy as much in LIM due to the high cost down there. As a result, EA would quite often only have enough fuel for revenue passengers, bags, and cargo on the return trip to MIA. I was stranded in LIM for a couple of days one time and had to fly home to MIA on an AeroPeru DC-8. Riding the DC-8 was fun despite my extra, unplanned days at LIM. Maybe DL tankers in fuel as well. I do know that LIM is on the alert list for NRSA's due to heavy cargo loads. In fact, not too long ago, the DL 777 flight from LIM set a DL cargo record for the airline. NRSA's really need to pay attention to those alerts and have alternate plans if they can't get out.

[Edited 2009-12-31 17:08:40]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2009-12-31 17:30:21 and read 13913 times.



Quoting BinMonster (Reply 25):
On Thursday 03DEC, Delta Flight 150 from Lima, Peru, to Atlanta set a cargo record for the highest number of tonnage carried out of Latin America and Lima with 75,654 pounds of cargo.

yep they had 34067kg of cargo and 35769.76 kg of fuel loaded!

on todays flight 31.12.2009 they had

20839kg of cargo and 33150.54 kg of fuel loaded

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2009-12-31 18:00:36 and read 13802 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 33):
no, but are they calculating half weights?

if the flight is set to Payload Optimize, half weights are counted as such....

Quoting BinMonster (Reply 25):
The flight is being payload optimized

And I would bet money that the LIM station people are fully familiar with what that means on the Dispatch Release and WDR...

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-12-31 18:05:36 and read 13781 times.



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 38):
And I would bet money that the LIM station people are fully familiar with what that means on the Dispatch Release and WDR...

my experience has taught me otherwise..............does LIM work their own pilot weight manifest or does DL load planning closeout the flight?

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 38):
if the flight is set to Payload Optimize, half weights are counted as such....

okay, so if you calculate half weights, generally speaking, you wont have enough weight, or time to add a 5,000lb pallet.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2009-12-31 18:07:41 and read 13815 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 39):
.does LIM work their own pilot weight manifest or does DL load planning closeout the flight?

ALL DAL load planning system wide (including the pre-merger NWA flights) are done from the 3rd floor of the OC2 building in ATL.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-12-31 18:12:57 and read 13741 times.

i dont mean creating the load plan, but finalizing it.................so every station worldwide sends the final pax/bags/cargo numbers to ATL?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2009-12-31 18:18:07 and read 13715 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 41):
i dont mean creating the load plan, but finalizing it.................so every station worldwide sends the final pax/bags/cargo numbers to ATL?

Yes, load planning starts doing the prework several hours before push time, and works with the stations closely when there are issues, such as not being able to carry the available revenue payload.

I've heard the load planners talk to people all over the world...

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Hugoandres1984
Posted 2009-12-31 18:30:43 and read 13690 times.

The MD80 has weight restriction in LIM also. The minimun enroute altitud on any route between Colombia, Ecuador and Peru are very high. If they have an engine failure with a high weight the aircraft performance dont allow to maintain the MEA, that why the MD80 has the weight restriction.

Maybe is similar to the 777 and 764

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: BinMonster
Posted 2009-12-31 18:37:06 and read 13655 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 29):
Where do I find this page?? I gave TravelNet a [very] quick look, but couldn't find it??

Go to DELTANET then under depts. go to HR then to pass travel and then to pass travel alerts

or just do a search for pass travel alerts or pass embargo's and click the link.

I am very carefully with my non-rev travl and buddy passes, I hate getting stuck or calls from buddy passes that their stuck. Also, always have a back up plan.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: MD88Captain
Posted 2009-12-31 19:32:14 and read 13328 times.

The non-rev restrictions are totally due to the aircraft being loaded with cargo up the max landing weight (in ATL). They put on the fuel/alternate fuel, paying pax, and then load the cargo up to the point where the enroute fuel burn will allow the aircraft to land in ATL at Max Landing Weight.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2009-12-31 20:23:10 and read 13026 times.



Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 45):
They put on the fuel/alternate fuel, paying pax, and then load the cargo up to the point where the enroute fuel burn will allow the aircraft to land in ATL at Max Landing Weight.

that may be true, however, I doubt that every day can be filled up to exactly less than 180lbs on every flight. You may be a good dispatcher/load planner, but thats a lil extreme to get that on a daily basis. Even I wasn't that good!!

If you're L limited, increase the burn. Something that can be worked out with the captain and the dispatcher.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Deltabobo
Posted 2009-12-31 21:19:32 and read 12819 times.



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 6):
My guess, without seeing a release, is the driftdown requirements of the terrain north of the area.

Well, it seems you follow me too, Doug!!!

Anyways, a 757 (or 767) doesn't need to worry about driftdown. The 757 (powered by PW2037s or RB211-535E4s) or 767-300/300ER (powered by GE CF6-80A2/80C2, PW4060's, or RB211-535s) are so powerful that if the plane were to lose one in flight, the aircraft performance wouldn't be inhibited by necessity to lose altitude. That's the biggest thing I've learned, especially having dispatched flights that fly over the Himalayas or Andes! However, one needs to be cognizant of the MORAs that exist and plan for a possible D/P or 1EO scenario that may occur. Whereas, in the States, if a D/P or 1EO scenario would occur, the PF would descend and divert, no matter where he was (case could be made in Colorado, but enough specifics). In mountainous regions of the world, that is not always possible, so we must plan for it by using "escape routes." It's still a relatively new concept here at RD, but as the old adage goes, Times a' changin'!

So, Transpac787, your friend who's stuck in the LIM and the flight is embargoed for NRSA due to "payload optimization" needs to realize that just because AA doesn't mean that DL can do it. Trust me, the dispatcher (and I know several of them over there at DL) is cognizant of everything that may occur with the flight. Perhaps, the plane had a MEL that restricts weight on takeoff/climb/cruise/descent/landing. Did you know that if the ADP (air-driven-pump), part of the HYD sys were deferred on a 767, you would have a 25000 lbs penalty off MTOW? LIM may have a low APT ELEV, but maybe the runway is slope-upwards?

My whole point here is simple: The guys who dispatch these birds from the desk in ATL have more knowledge about the operation of their airline than even the drivers who fly them. If they deem it that a non-revver can't flight due to weight optimization, then its final. Plus, Delta is not there to be a personal limo service for NRSA's. They're there to make money (revenue). Revenue will always fly before non-revenue.

Happy New Year to all!

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Aviationbuff08
Posted 2010-01-01 00:29:47 and read 12231 times.



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 38):
the flight is set to Payload Optimize

Translation = NRSA are almost certainly left behind to take pictures as the aircraft departs. Big grin

Quoting Deltabobo (Reply 47):
However, one needs to be cognizant of the MORAs that exist and plan for a possible D/P or 1EO scenario that may occur. Whereas, in the States, if a D/P or 1EO scenario would occur, the PF would descend and divert, no matter where he was (case could be made in Colorado

I am intereested as to what this means.,, as I am considering a dispatcher career.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2010-01-01 00:52:14 and read 12153 times.

LIM has consistantly lead DL's station's in cargo revenue. Not very surprising honestly. Happened to me many times...

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Nethkt
Posted 2010-01-01 04:16:49 and read 11429 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 49):
LIM has consistantly lead DL's station's in cargo revenue. Not very surprising honestly. Happened to me many times...

Totally agree. Flights were just simply weight-restricted at MZFW due to large amount of cargo from LIM.

It happened many times with VS005/VS006 on LHR-MIA v.v, no matter it's B744 or A346 with 75% pax booked, flights could go simply weight-restricted due to cargo approx. 25-30 metric tons!!

Good luck non-reving on cargo flights!!!

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2010-01-01 05:14:32 and read 11083 times.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 46):
If you're L limited, increase the burn. Something that can be worked out with the captain and the dispatcher.

American uses something called (well, they did) AEB - additional enroute burnoff, where if a nonstop direct flight plan puts a flight (with all of the desired payload) over a max landing weight, the crew has a number, their AEB, which they agree to that they will burn, some how, so as to land at their max landing weight. Could be flying fast, could be doing spins at their destination, off optimum altitudes, or anything so as to actually land at/below their MLDW.

So, if I am at a station, and they need an additional 2000 lbs for payload, they can ask their dispatcher, and he can (whether they still do this, I am unsure) add 2000 of AEB, and when the crew gets their paperwork, they'll see that they have 2000 of AEB, and are required to burn that off somehow.

Deltas Flight Planning System does not, and I personally dont think it should, support the concept of an AEB; see 121.693(b)(3).

Quoting Aviationbuff08 (Reply 48):
I am intereested as to what this means.,, as I am considering a dispatcher career.

Review 121.191(a)(1) and 121.191(a)(2).. Note, that that section is about the only section in the FAR that I am aware of, where the most restrictive limitation may not necessarily apply.

[Edited 2010-01-01 05:19:17 by dispatchguy]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: SQ773
Posted 2010-01-01 05:37:53 and read 10994 times.



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 3):
cargo has priority over nonrev no? LIM is a HUGE cargo route.

There is nothing else causing this. They are picking up cargo before nonrevs.

Thenoflyzone

Same happened to me this October. I wanted to nonrev on KL LIM-AMS. Y class had 49 free seats. But They took the ocassion to load the maximum cargo possible and none of the 9 nonrev there could fly.

We were told that the flight is ussually fully booked with passangers, same goes with cargo. In these cases, some cargo has to be off loaded.

Fortunately we could fly a few hours later with IB 346 also absolutely full.

My question is if the IB 346 is more versatil than the KL 777 when it comes to combine full load of cargo plus full passanger loads. Ok, the trip to MAD is shorter than the one to AMS, but anyway...

Cheers

SQ773

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: DAirbus
Posted 2010-01-01 06:03:31 and read 10808 times.

I can confirm that the cargo loads out of LIM are brutal. I worked the International ramp in ATL several years ago and I still remember the K-loader straining to handle the almost 10,000 lb pallets of asparagus that came of the inbound LIM flight.

My parents have non-reved to LIM a couple times over the last three years and it has been touch and go at times. The first time they tried to come back, they got bumped off two days in a row because they had checked luggage. Apparently the station had made a rule of only boarding non-revs with no luggage due to the high cargo loads. My parents had to arrange for the bags to be shipped to the US as cargo in order for them to get on the flight.

The cargo and non-rev restrictions out of LIM have been in place for a while now and it seems to make little difference what size aircraft they use, it gets loaded to the max. Both the 764 and 777 have been loaded right up to MZFW and/or MLW regularly.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Deltabobo
Posted 2010-01-01 06:04:21 and read 10578 times.



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 49):

Ready for abbreviation explanation? Me neither.

Anyways,

D/P - Depressurization
1EO - 1 Engine Out (2EO on a 757/767 = LONG DART)
PF - Pilot Flying
PNF - Pilot Not Flying

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: EASTERN
Posted 2010-01-01 06:14:47 and read 10509 times.

I got stuck trying to nonrev on this route last March when it was still the 764. No nonrevs got on. Was bummed because I was trying to get home after celebrating my birthday. Got on a three hour delayed AB6 to MIA on AA. I really wanted to get on the 764 as I had never been on one, but at least I got on the A300 before it was retired. Did spend a day and a half stuck in MIA, until DL was able to get me home from there. They came through in the end. Guess that asparagus really is heavy!!

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2010-01-01 08:55:16 and read 9513 times.



Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 36):
Maybe DL tankers in fuel as well.

DL and most airlines do not tanker fuel unless there are supply issues. Even in countries w/ currency movement issues, there are ways to work w/o using inefficient methods. It takes burning fuel to carry fuel... transporting fuel by air is the most INEFFICIENT method possible. There has to be a very dramatic price difference to justify tankering for economic reasons.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 46):
that may be true, however, I doubt that every day can be filled up to exactly less than 180lbs on every flight. You may be a good dispatcher/load planner, but thats a lil extreme to get that on a daily basis. Even I wasn't that good!!

keep in mind that int'l flights often have exit immigration procedures. You cannot maintain a margin of less than 1000 lbs and have passengers standing by ready to jump on a plane if there is weight available; gov'ts do not like processing passengers "out" of a country only to have to consistently pull them off because of operational issues which are within the airline's control.
On a domestic flight, you could well throw on a passenger w/ no checked baggage w/ a 200 lb available allowance but that doesn't work on int'l flights.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: AndyGarrett
Posted 2010-01-01 09:10:26 and read 9388 times.

Since cargo seems to be a reason and asparagus is mentioned several times does anyone know what is so special about said asparagus that we can't grow it here in the States? I have tried Peruvian asparagus from my local Publix and can't seem to recall anything special about it. In fact, it is kind of scrawny compared to what is grown here in Florida.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-01 09:18:14 and read 9311 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 56):
keep in mind that int'l flights often have exit immigration procedures. You cannot maintain a margin of less than 1000 lbs and have passengers standing by ready to jump on a plane if there is weight available; gov'ts do not like processing passengers "out" of a country only to have to consistently pull them off because of operational issues which are within the airline's control.
On a domestic flight, you could well throw on a passenger w/ no checked baggage w/ a 200 lb available allowance but that doesn't work on int'l flights.

i understand that, as this is the case at a number of int'l destinations. However, 30 minutes out you can get a pretty good idea on what you're going to have left. And at 30 minutes, most everything is going to be on board, therefore, if you have 2,000lbs left of payload, and you have a 5,000 lb pallet of asparagus (since that is apparently the only thing DL ships out of LIM) you can at least let a few NRSA get on the plane.

Essentially, then what you are saying is that its not a true weight restriction, its that the agents dont think you have enough time to go through all the security/immigration checks prior to getting to the boarding gate. Which is a poor planning game plan on the staff.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CitationJet
Posted 2010-01-01 09:24:52 and read 9270 times.



Quoting AndyGarrett (Reply 57):
does anyone know what is so special about said asparagus that we can't grow it here in the States?

"Peru is one of the few countries where high quality asparagus is produced year round, due to warm and favorable weather, because asparagus plants do not enter a dormant stage."

http://www.fas.usda.gov/htp/Hort_Circular/2001/01-09/aspfeat.htm

.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Mir
Posted 2010-01-01 13:29:25 and read 8381 times.



Quoting Aviationbuff08 (Reply 48):
Quoting Deltabobo (Reply 47):
However, one needs to be cognizant of the MORAs that exist and plan for a possible D/P or 1EO scenario that may occur. Whereas, in the States, if a D/P or 1EO scenario would occur, the PF would descend and divert, no matter where he was (case could be made in Colorado

I am intereested as to what this means.,, as I am considering a dispatcher career.

Basically, there are two things that could force an airplane to descend. One is an engine failure (1EO - one engine out), in which case the aircraft simply cannot maintain altitude on the remaining engine - it has to come down to an altitude that it can maintain. Another scenario that would force a descent is a depressurization (D/P), in which case the airplane needs to get to an altitude where the pax don't need supplemental oxygen. In most of the world, neither of these are a problem, since both a breathable altitude and the engine-out service ceiling are well above terrain. But in an area of high mountains like the Andes, this may not be the case, and then special consideration must be given so that should a descent be required, the aircraft will not be going down into terrain.

-Mir

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2010-01-01 15:06:14 and read 8173 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 55):
i understand that, as this is the case at a number of int'l destinations. However, 30 minutes out you can get a pretty good idea on what you're going to have left. And at 30 minutes, most everything is going to be on board, therefore, if you have 2,000lbs left of payload, and you have a 5,000 lb pallet of asparagus (since that is apparently the only thing DL ships out of LIM) you can at least let a few NRSA get on the plane.

and no one is saying that DL is leaving a 2000 pound payload margin on the ground. A couple hundred pounds, perhaps; thousands of pounds, no.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2010-01-01 15:16:05 and read 8133 times.

AA saved the day - he made it on the 763 to MIA. I appreciate everyone's posts but my question still remains:

How is AA able to take nonrevs and DL not?? I'd imagine AA carries a LOT of cargo out of LIM as well, same as DL, given the size of their cargo operation at MIA. So... what gives?? Why can AA 763's take a full cabin, regardless of revenue or NRSA, while the DL planes cannot??

Does the 500 mile difference between MIA and ATL make all the difference in terms of weight savings from fuel??

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: PGNCS
Posted 2010-01-01 15:17:29 and read 8118 times.

The restrictions are almost certainly due to huge amounts of cargo and max landing weight issues in ATL; MZFW issues can also crop up.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-01 15:19:47 and read 8110 times.

I'm confused by your statement in reply 58..........even you say that it is filled right up to MZFW/MLW. As are others who are posting.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 32):
I can tell you that DL fills the a/c to max landing weight in ATL which is the limiting factor on weight



Quoting Nethkt (Reply 47):
Flights were just simply weight-restricted at MZFW due to large amount of cargo from LIM



Quoting DAirbus (Reply 50):
Both the 764 and 777 have been loaded right up to MZFW and/or MLW regularly.

so has anyone pulled up a RLS/pilot weight manifest?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Peanuts
Posted 2010-01-01 16:06:21 and read 7976 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 59):
my question still remains:

How is AA able to take nonrevs and DL not?? I'd imagine AA carries a LOT of cargo out of LIM as well, same as DL, given the size of their cargo operation at MIA. So... what gives?? Why can AA 763's take a full cabin, regardless of revenue or NRSA, while the DL planes cannot??

I think the answer may be somewhere in here: (different practices between DL and AA)

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 48):
American uses something called (well, they did) AEB - additional enroute burnoff, where if a nonstop direct flight plan puts a flight (with all of the desired payload) over a max landing weight, the crew has a number, their AEB, which they agree to that they will burn, some how, so as to land at their max landing weight. Could be flying fast, could be doing spins at their destination, off optimum altitudes, or anything so as to actually land at/below their MLDW.

So, if I am at a station, and they need an additional 2000 lbs for payload, they can ask their dispatcher, and he can (whether they still do this, I am unsure) add 2000 of AEB, and when the crew gets their paperwork, they'll see that they have 2000 of AEB, and are required to burn that off somehow.

Deltas Flight Planning System does not, and I personally dont think it should, support the concept of an AEB; see 121.693(b)(3).

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-01 16:19:40 and read 7950 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 59):
How is AA able to take nonrevs and DL not??

i'd say bad planning on DL agents in LIM. Until someone can provide some numbers, I'd say this is all there is to go by. CO carries large amounts of cargo on a number of routes, and has weight restrictions on many, many routes on both the 757, 764, 772, so to just say "cargo" is not a true acurate answer.

If DL is leaving LIM everyday with more than 400lbs available, then planning, execution and communication has failed.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2010-01-01 16:44:04 and read 7885 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 63):
i'd say bad planning on DL agents in LIM. Until someone can provide some numbers, I'd say this is all there is to go by

I'd say that you are making an assumption that cannot be backed up...
if anything, DL is operating on a more strict system but then that shouldn't come as a surprise since DL is clearly running an airline that is not attracting multiple FAA investigations, mandatory groundings, or multiple incidents and accidents.

let's keep in mind that these are NON-REVs; neither DL or any other airline exists to carry them.

Further, there is ample evidence that DL has consistently communicated that carrying non-revs on certain flights including LIM-ATL is highly problematic. Apparently if you want to fly DL out of LIM as a non-rev, you better have very decent backup plans. Whining about not getting on a flight when you were told there were good chances you wouldn't and then postulating that DL is doing somethting wrong shows the lack of ability to objectively understand and discuss the situation.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-01 17:32:26 and read 7778 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 64):
I'd say that you are making an assumption that cannot be backed up...

personal experience

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 64):
if anything, DL is operating on a more strict system but then that shouldn't come as a surprise since DL is clearly running an airline that is not attracting multiple FAA investigations, mandatory groundings, or multiple incidents and accidents.

what are you trying to say..........

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 64):
let's keep in mind that these are NON-REVs; neither DL or any other airline exists to carry them

so, the company has layed out a process for employees to fly, stations can't just make up their own guidelines on how they want to deal with them.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 64):
Further, there is ample evidence that DL has consistently communicated that carrying non-revs on certain flights including LIM-ATL is highly problematic. Apparently if you want to fly DL out of LIM as a non-rev, you better have very decent backup plans. Whining about not getting on a flight when you were told there were good chances you wouldn't and then postulating that DL is doing somethting wrong shows the lack of ability to objectively understand and discuss the situation.

Having agents that cannot generate a plan and execute it shows a lack of understanding how to tackle a problem and generate a solution.

No one isn't saying that it isn't a hard place to non-rev out of, but whether or not the flight is leaving with available payload and the ability to accomodate non-revs seems to be the root of the question here. And I dont think that has been truly answered to this point. The only answer that seems to be coming up is that the flight is at MZFW or MLW on a daily basis.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: LAXtoATL
Posted 2010-01-01 17:57:36 and read 7723 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 65):
so, the company has layed out a process for employees to fly, stations can't just make up their own guidelines on how they want to deal with them.

this ignores that fact the company (at the corporate hq not the LIM stattion) has issued non-rev travel advisories at the corporate level warning against non-revving out of LIM

it also ignores (at least according to this thread) that all DL flights are dispatched from DL's operations control center in ATL.

So, this has nothing to do with what the agents at the station are doing. They are only doing what is dictated from ATL!

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2010-01-01 18:03:43 and read 7727 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 64):
Whining about not getting on a flight when you were told there were good chances you wouldn't and then postulating that DL is doing somethting wrong shows the lack of ability to objectively understand and discuss the situation.

Well, considering how AA consistently leaves with full cabin and what I presume to be full cargo (if not more cargo contracts than DL), it seems DL is, indeed, probably doing something wrong  Wink

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 64):
let's keep in mind that these are NON-REVs; neither DL or any other airline exists to carry them.

How often must we continue to beat a dead horse, I'll never know....

Most nonrevs don't go into these trips half-assed. You, and most of collective a.net, act like we've never done it before and are totally effing clueless as to how the system works. While we appreciate you reciting to us page 1 of NRSA travel, I'm supremely confident we can all move beyond that now and onto the far more interesting and productive discussion which, up to this point - no one can really answer.

Reply 48 seems to come the closest to a logical explanation thus far. Your dismissal of the AA procedures in reply 64 offers nothing but a poorly-masked smear tactic. AA has never been grounded or investigated for their methods of enroute burnoff nor unsafe dispatch procedures.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: ArmitageShanks
Posted 2010-01-01 18:11:12 and read 7680 times.

I don't know about you all but I'm really starting to hate asparagus.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2010-01-01 19:01:57 and read 7590 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 65):
personal experience

which is a fraction of what the whole situation includes, isn't it?

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 65):
so, the company has layed out a process for employees to fly, stations can't just make up their own guidelines on how they want to deal with them.

you're absolutely right.... stations can't do what they want to do and people up to the CEO and EVPs over operations are well aware of the LIM weight restrictions. You act as if you are going to tell them something that they don't know.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 66):
They are only doing what is dictated from ATL!

...where incidentally the money all passes through as well.... guess that's why ATL is so interested in making sure REVENUE - and not employee benefits are maximized....
again, there are a handful of the thousands of flights around the world that have performance limitations affecting non-rev travelers and DL is quite aggressive at communicating the high potential for being left behind on those routes.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 67):
I presume

but you really have nothing but your ASSUMPTIONS for the basis of your criticism, do you?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-01 19:08:14 and read 7573 times.

you truly dont understand the point I am bringing up by your posts. Do you have any experience in dispatch or load planning?

if you can provide some numbers showing that these flights are leaving w/o any payload available to accomdate than I will bow down and let go and say you are right. Until then, the mystery will remain for all of us.

[Edited 2010-01-01 19:10:16]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-01 19:15:49 and read 7552 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 69):
which is a fraction of what the whole situation includes, isn't it?

not when i have almost daily experience

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2010-01-01 19:23:02 and read 7553 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 71):
not when i have almost daily experience

would you like to tell us why you are commuting from LIM to ATL on a daily basis?

OTOH, If it happens multiple days on the same trip, it simply tells us that you didn't listen to what the LIM station personnel told you; but since you are arguing about whether DL should be weight restricting a flight when it is pretty clear that DL warned the entire DL community about the possibility - indeed likelihood - of getting out of LIM, thn I'm not surprised you are discussing it here.

Let us reiterate one more time:
DL has said that it is unlikely you will get out of LIM to ATL as a non-revenue passenger.
It is their prerogative to carry you or not.
Follow the guidelines, use your pass benefits where you can and move on.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-01 19:34:58 and read 7532 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 72):
would you like to tell us why you are commuting from LIM to ATL on a daily basis?

never said I commute out of LIM

your statements are leaning toward the idea that NO NONREVS ARE ALLOWED OUT OF LIM!!

All we're asking for is some information.........not a statement that is put out about a flight in the future. Over the past week, how many times did the flight leave with payload available?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2010-01-01 20:53:20 and read 7416 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 65):
No one isn't saying that it isn't a hard place to non-rev out of, but whether or not the flight is leaving with available payload and the ability to accomodate non-revs seems to be the root of the question here. And I dont think that has been truly answered to this point.

For all we all know, there are facilitation issues at LIM, where like someone else said, since they cant preclear them at the ticket counter upon checkin, knowing they have a belly full of freight, pax bags, etc., they just dont board them, I am fine by that practice. By the time the final # are in, there isnt enough time to get from the ticket counter, clear outbound immigration (if there is), security, then get to the gate, doors close what - 10-20 minutes before push so the last minute items can be performed - so 10-20 mins to get from the counter, immigration, security, sounds like not a lot of time; I mean hell, you cant get thru the rat maze at the ATL main security checkpoint in less than 20 mins on a good day. I mean after all, they are NON REVENUE, and woe is to anyone in this industry nowadays who takes a delay to accommodate nonrevenue load. Thats a good way to get called on the carpet, and possibly lose a job.

When I flew out of PVG this past March, on DL, we were precleared at the ticket counter. Yes, there was a Nonrev travel alert in effect - specifically for buddy passes out of PVG (we had my Mother in Law traveling on a BP), but I had been watching the loads for a month prior, both booked loads and the actual weights boarded, and I felt comfortable taking a chance - the flight was booked to less than 200 pax total, and we got out with plenty of weight to spare.

Like I said before, you nonrev and you are ALWAYS taking a chance, and if you dont have a backup, youre screwed. There isnt a permanent no-nonrev embargo for LIM (maybe there should be - would you just rather DL completely eliminated it altogether), but I remember seeing the nonrev warnings on TravelNet and they made it crystal clear - you may get on, and there is a very real possibility you may not due to cargo loads, and specifically for buddy pass travelers who travel at a lower boarding priority, and who dont have access to ZED fares, you are stuck.

Dont want to gamble, fine, buy a ticket...

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-01 21:19:09 and read 7389 times.

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 74):
For all we all know, there are facilitation issues at LIM, where like someone else said, since they cant preclear them at the ticket counter upon checkin, knowing they have a belly full of freight, pax bags, etc., they just dont board them, I am fine by that practice. By the time the final # are in, there isnt enough time to get from the ticket counter, clear outbound immigration (if there is), security, then get to the gate, doors close what - 10-20 minutes before push so the last minute items can be performed - so 10-20 mins to get from the counter, immigration, security, sounds like not a lot of time; I mean hell, you cant get thru the rat maze at the ATL main security checkpoint in less than 20 mins on a good day.

yes, this can be a problem, as this happened to me the first time I was down there years ago. This can be the problem like you said, in other places such as PEK/PVG, etc etc.

But a good 30 minutes out you can have your final pax/bag count, you already have your freight loaded, so you can pretty much finalize everything and add your halfweights to add a few more pounds (at least enough to add a small number of non-revs, whether it be 1, 2 or more)

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 74):
Like I said before, you nonrev and you are ALWAYS taking a chance, and if you dont have a backup, youre screwed

yes, we are all well versed in the non-rev travel world.


Can someone please provide some numbers so we can end this thread!!!!!!!!!!  banghead 

[Edited 2010-01-01 21:22:19]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Ocracoke
Posted 2010-01-01 22:06:36 and read 7297 times.



Quoting Avianca (Reply 28):
yep, just fyi, DL moves nearly 0% asparagus for the US market, as most freight is transit to LHR, AMS, CDG.

Nearly all US asparagus is moved on QT, JW, WE, UC, 5Y freither to MIA, and a little bit with LA to JFK and LAX on the pax flights.

I think that this is probably part of the AA answer (as to why AA can take non-rev's while DL can't). According to the quote above by Avianca, almost none of the asparagus for the US market is moved by US passenger carriers. So by default, the asparagus that AA and DL and all the other US passenger airlines carry will only be transiting the US, and ending up overseas.

Since DL at ATL has far more onward European connections than AA does at MIA, it would seem that AA doesn't always fill up their planes simply because they don't have the onward connecting opportunity that DL has. DL fills 'er up out of LIM and sends the stuff onward to LHR, CDG, AMS, (throw in BRU, DUS, FRA, MUC, ZRH for good measure.....-->I don't know where the stuff is favored over in Europen, but you get the drift.) AA fills 'er up in LIM and sends it onwards to LHR, MAD.

If Avianca is correct, AA can more easily take non-revs because they don't have onward connecting market for asparagus that DL has, and the asparagus that does go to MIA is already carried by QT, JW, WE, UC, 5Y. Hence AA's planes should be a lot lighter out of LIM.

My 2 cents.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2010-01-02 07:35:50 and read 7065 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 67):
Well, considering how AA consistently leaves with full cabin and what I presume to be full cargo (if not more cargo contracts than DL

they have of course also cargo contracts but is it much more easier to get ad hoc space on AA than on DL out of LIM, as DL has sold nearly the 100% on contracts.

Quoting Ocracoke (Reply 76):
Since DL at ATL has far more onward European connections than AA does at MIA, it would seem that AA doesn't always fill up their planes simply because they don't have the onward connecting opportunity that DL has. DL fills 'er up out of LIM and sends the stuff onward to LHR, CDG, AMS, (throw in BRU, DUS, FRA, MUC, ZRH for good measure.....-->I don't know where the stuff is favored over in Europen, but you get the drift.) AA fills 'er up in LIM and sends it onwards to LHR, MAD.

here I have the numbers for October 2009.

DL moved ex LIM:
584944kgs (increased 5% compared to October 2008)
Making DL to the 7th biggest cargo operator ex LIM, which is really not bad for a pax carrier with only 1 daily flight.

AA moved ex LIM:
283614kgs (decreased 25% comared to October 2008)
Making AA only to the 10th biggest cargo opertor ex LIM)

regarding the markets.
DL moved to the US 71507kgs and AA moved to the US 94183kgs

DL moved to Europe 506349kgs, making them to the 4rd biggest cargo carrier to Europe ex LIM, 1 is LAN (moving on there daily 767 flight to MAD, moving alot via MIA to AMS on freighter, and also moving cargo via GYE into MAD), 2 is IB and 3rd KL.
AA moved to Europe only 156849kgs

additional DL moved 5928kgs to Asia and AA moved nothing to this market, mainly as asparagues can not transit internally in the US (customs restrections) and AA has no flights out of MIA to asia.

All data is from a official source, so if anybody needs some more info, just let me know.

kind regards
Avianca

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2010-01-02 08:06:05 and read 7000 times.



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 26):
Where do I find this page?? I gave TravelNet a [very] quick look, but couldn't find it??

On DeltaNet, you've got to look on the Employee Connection page and from there, go to "Travel"........on the left side of that page, it shows the flights that are payload optimized.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 67):
AA consistently leaves with full cabin and what I presume to be full cargo (if not more cargo contracts than DL),

Well, there's part of your problem......you're "presuming" something that you really have no knowledge of. From the figures above, it looks like DL is hauling about twice the amount that AA is and on only 1 flight a day.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2010-01-02 08:43:30 and read 6924 times.

Thanks Avianca,

That is extremely impressive - I hope the Cargo Sales manager that runs the LIM Freight operation got a very good holiday bonus.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 77):
DL has sold nearly the 100% on contracts.

Not bad for a single daily flight...

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: WorldTraveler
Posted 2010-01-02 09:16:37 and read 6844 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 75):
Can someone please provide some numbers so we can end this thread!!!!!!!!!!

will the numbers below do or do you want detailed data for each of the flights you were apparently bumped off of?

Quoting Avianca (Reply 77):
Making DL to the 7th biggest cargo operator ex LIM, which is really not bad for a pax carrier with only 1 daily flight.



Quoting Avianca (Reply 77):
DL moved to Europe 506349kgs, making them to the 4rd biggest cargo carrier to Europe ex LIM



Quoting Avianca (Reply 77):
additional DL moved 5928kgs to Asia

All of this confirms that DL is a GLOBAL carrier at LIM; given that DL's passenger operations at LIM mirror its cargo operations, LIM is got to be a very profitable station for DL; whether non-revs like DL's profitability to come at the expense of seats for non-revving, it confirms that DL just like every other airline must have a core group of very strong stations that deliver consistent financial results. The question then seems to be at what point DL will be looking at additional service to LIM.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CAP2008
Posted 2010-01-02 10:17:25 and read 6758 times.



Quoting Peanuts (Reply 14):
Would it have anything to do with the direction of take-off??? If winds change and a different runway direction is utilized, he may have more luck getting out. I don't know how LIM is set-up.
Gluck CAP2008. New Year's eve in Peru huh. lol.

Indeed, spent new years sitting on AA918, about 15 mins prior to push :P

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 68):

Me too, my new year's resolution was to not eat asparagus in 2010  Silly The funny thing was that DL served asparagus as part of the main course of the Businesselite dinner on the ATL-LIM flight.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-02 10:43:49 and read 6702 times.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 80):
will the numbers below do or do you want detailed data for each of the flights you were apparently bumped off of?


where are the numbers?

this thread has turned into a cargo shipping topic. Some would like to know payloads.......what amount of payload is DL leaving LIM with?

[Edited 2010-01-02 10:50:56]

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: LAXtoATL
Posted 2010-01-02 10:47:38 and read 6699 times.



Quoting CAP2008 (Reply 81):
Me too, my new year's resolution was to not eat asparagus in 2010 Silly The funny thing was that DL served asparagus as part of the main course of the Businesselite dinner on the ATL-LIM flight.

LOL, I wonder where they got it from?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2010-01-02 11:25:07 and read 6656 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 80):
The question then seems to be at what point DL will be looking at additional service to LIM.

In my opinion DL should look into the possibility to charter freighters for the high season, they could fill without a problem a 2 x weekly 747F (mostly to feeder the widebody flights).

The problem is the soutbound with low rates.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 80):
will the numbers below do or do you want detailed data for each of the flights you were apparently bumped off of?



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 82):
where are the numbers?

this thread has turned into a cargo shipping topic. Some would like to know payloads.......what amount of payload is DL leaving LIM with?

http://www.aduanet.gob.pe/cl-ad-itco...anifiesto&tipoConsulta=fechaSalida

here is the exact data including how much fuel they loaded on each flight.

cheers
Avianca

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-02 12:40:32 and read 6579 times.

can anyone with access to DL's computer tell us all how much payload was remaining when the LIM-ATL flight left?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Eugdog
Posted 2010-01-02 13:11:43 and read 6511 times.

But why is the so much cargo from Lima to the US. I could understand Hong Kong or Japan may have loads of cargo.

I mean how much cocaine can you put on a US bound flight from Lima!  Smile

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2010-01-02 13:24:38 and read 6487 times.



Quoting Eugdog (Reply 86):
But why is the so much cargo from Lima to the US. I could understand Hong Kong or Japan may have loads of cargo.

as before mentioned mainly asparagus, also other perishable items and a lot of clothes, brands like Abacomby etc... are producing down here in Peru.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2010-01-02 15:55:07 and read 6337 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 69):
but you really have nothing but your ASSUMPTIONS for the basis of your criticism, do you?

Same as you, it would seem  Wink

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: MGASJO
Posted 2010-01-02 18:28:56 and read 6211 times.



Quoting Ocracoke (Reply 76):
If Avianca is correct, AA can more easily take non-revs because they don't have onward connecting market for asparagus that DL has, and the asparagus that does go to MIA is already carried by QT, JW, WE, UC, 5Y. Hence AA's planes should be a lot lighter out of LIM.



Quoting Ocracoke (Reply 76):
I think that this is probably part of the AA answer (as to why AA can take non-rev's while DL can't). According to the quote above by Avianca, almost none of the asparagus for the US market is moved by US passenger carriers. So by default, the asparagus that AA and DL and all the other US passenger airlines carry will only be transiting the US, and ending up overseas.

AA Flight 918 today carried 5,154kgs of asparagus, 7,826kgs on the 1st, none on the 31st and some 2,400kgs on the 30th all connecting to LHR. That does not mean the days they did not carry asparagus they went empty. Lots of mangoes as well, both MIA terminating and connecting to CDG.
Given the limited amount of space we (AA) have from MIA to Europe (1 CDG, 1 MAD, 2 LHRs seasonal) all the freight on those planes is divided every season all through the stations that feed MIA. There is this meeting held once a year where all sales managers and ops people from Latin America and Miami get together planning the season according to past years revenues, seasonal restrictions (mail-heavy days, valentines day...). this is to optimize the revenue received on cargo. So, those days LIM does not send cargo to Europe, we in MGA or GUA send okra, SJO send topical flowers, fish and so on. Most of the times there is 0 room at all for cargo originating in MIA.
LIM has always been a big cargo station, weight restriction was a factor on the A300 (since it carried way more pax), but we still managed to carry a full load when possible without exceeding all restricting weights. So whoever said we go over the line or whatever is very wrong. I would like to see the releases of those DL flights. I can tell you that working a weight restricted flight with lots of cargo, bags and lots of nonrevs and aiming for an on time departure is no easy trick. Fortunately enough SABRE has a lot of information for people that work in OPS and the load agents are always there willing to help.
I remember working in SJO trying to get 727s out of there when it was hot, full and with cargo standing-by. asking the captain if he was willing to switch runways, praying for a 1 degree drop in temp and a little help from the wind, praying the flight was fueled to its release weight and not a single pound more was really stressful but we all managed to get them out on time (well, most of the times at least).
Heck, me as a non-rev will always do all possible to avoid leaving people behind due to weight issues.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Frostbite
Posted 2010-01-03 04:43:11 and read 5946 times.

Somewhat off topic...but does anyone have any insight as to DL's use of 767-400s on ATL-CCS over the last year or so? This seems like a lot of capacity for a thin route that has traditionally been operated with 757/738.

I was under the impression that USA-Venezuela traffic had nosedived in the last few years. If cargo is the reason for the 764, anyone know what the cargo consists of?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: BinMonster
Posted 2010-01-03 07:42:06 and read 5813 times.



Quoting Frostbite (Reply 90):
Somewhat off topic...but does anyone have any insight as to DL's use of 767-400s on ATL-CCS over the last year or so? This seems like a lot of capacity for a thin route that has traditionally been operated with 757/738.

I was under the impression that USA-Venezuela traffic had nosedived in the last few years. If cargo is the reason for the 764, anyone know what the cargo consists of?

Passenger demand and US exports to CCS

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2010-01-03 07:42:48 and read 5825 times.



Quoting Frostbite (Reply 90):
I was under the impression that USA-Venezuela traffic had nosedived in the last few years. If cargo is the reason for the 764, anyone know what the cargo consists of?

important to mention that cargo can not be the factor why they use the 764 on the route.

DL does not even sell on the northbound, and does not move any kg ex CCS (as the cargo operation in CCS is really a nightmare).

Regarding import, they are mainly moving transit cargo from Europe (Belgium, Sweden, France, Germany) and biggest commodoty are pharmaceutical products.

cheers
Avianca

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Frostbite
Posted 2010-01-04 04:50:27 and read 5467 times.



Quoting Avianca (Reply 92):
DL does not even sell on the northbound, and does not move any kg ex CCS (as the cargo operation in CCS is really a nightmare).

Interesting, thanks for that info. CCS must be one of the few SouthAm-USA markets with little cargo business.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALPSAFltSkeds
Posted 2010-01-04 08:43:07 and read 5295 times.

Could it be that AA has better passenger loads from LIM and plans to carry only the cargo that will combine with a full pax load? Then NRs could get on with no-shows.
Could it be that DL has lighter loads from LIM and they compensate by booking more cargo? Thus, the aircraft is maxed out and NRs don't get on.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Yellowtail
Posted 2010-01-04 13:24:42 and read 5172 times.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 53):
DL and most airlines do not tanker fuel unless there are supply issues. Even in countries w/ currency movement issues, there are ways to work w/o using inefficient methods. It takes burning fuel to carry fuel... transporting fuel by air is the most INEFFICIENT method possible. There has to be a very dramatic price difference to justify tankering for economic reasons.

Then why was the AA overrun flight in KIN the other day tankering fuel? No supply issues there last I checked. Airlines routinely tanker fuel to BZE these days and no supply issues either (but cost ones yes) ....if the cost / benefit supports it, they will do it.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: LAXtoATL
Posted 2010-01-04 13:41:04 and read 5138 times.



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 95):
Then why was the AA overrun flight in KIN the other day tankering fuel?

I'm pretty certain that was a passenger aircraft and not a tanker involved in the AA KIN incident.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2010-01-04 14:29:07 and read 5090 times.



Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 96):
I'm pretty certain that was a passenger aircraft and not a tanker involved in the AA KIN incident.

Do you know what "tankering" is?? It's when an airline puts an extra amount of fuel on board a flight at the origin, so fuel won't have to be put on the return trip, whether for price concerns or supply problems. DL used to do this quite often on the flights from SLC-JAC because the price was higher in JAC.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Jimbobjoe
Posted 2010-01-05 01:16:19 and read 4893 times.



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 48):
Deltas Flight Planning System does not, and I personally dont think it should, support the concept of an AEB; see 121.693(b)(3).

I was curious to know what you had against it. Or do you believe that the AEB does not reasonably meet that FAR section quoted.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Dispatchguy
Posted 2010-01-05 02:34:39 and read 4865 times.



Quoting Jimbobjoe (Reply 98):
I was curious to know what you had against it. Or do you believe that the AEB does not reasonably meet that FAR section quoted.

I dont think that telling the crew to "go burn it somehow" is a smart thing. Crew'll forget, land over MLDW, and now you have a plane at an outstation needing an overweight landing inspection, plus, I dont think that is the intent of the reg under 121.693(b)(3).

Now, the dispatcher can build a circuitous routing - so instead of going on a direct route, build it to a more indirect route as part of the ATC flight plan. So, instead of going ORD direct GUIDO (a fix down by Evansville, Indiana), you could go ORD DCT STL DCT GUIDO, with the STL dogleg making up your AEB. Tell ATC that you need the scenic route today, tell the crew why you filed them that way, and be done with it.

But to build a circuitous routing in order to be able to accept nonrevenue payload is not something I would ever do. I still think its the facilitation problems of not being able to get from the counter to the gate, with outbound immigration (if there is), security, and so on right before they close the door for departure.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: LAXtoATL
Posted 2010-01-05 06:53:59 and read 4779 times.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 97):
Do you know what "tankering" is?? It's when an airline puts an extra amount of fuel on board a flight at the origin, so fuel won't have to be put on the return trip, whether for price concerns or supply problems. DL used to do this quite often on the flights from SLC-JAC because the price was higher in JAC.

Apparently I did not know what "tankering" was. Now I do. I thought that tankering fuel was the process of carrying fuel as cargo. (I was aware of the practice you described occuring just didn't know that is what it was called). Thanks for the info

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-01-05 12:24:58 and read 4617 times.

so 6 days later no one is willing to give information as to how much payload remaining the flight is leaving LIM with?

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Mayor
Posted 2010-01-05 13:41:28 and read 4548 times.



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 101):
so 6 days later no one is willing to give information as to how much payload remaining the flight is leaving LIM with?

Anything on a flight plan or weight/data record MIGHT be considered proprietary. I'm not sure....just a thought.


It has been my experience that DL's automated weight and balance system (AWABS) has always been rather conservative, at least in relation to doing the weight and balance manually. That may have something to do with this, also.

Topic: RE: DL Out Of LIM - Why Huge Weight Restrictions?
Username: Avianca
Posted 2010-01-05 14:34:36 and read 4474 times.



Quoting Frostbite (Reply 93):
Interesting, thanks for that info. CCS must be one of the few SouthAm-USA markets with little cargo business.

yes and not only to the US, the second biggest cargo player out of Ccs (AV) has a aproximate cargo loadfactor of 19% ... so you can immagine....


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