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Topic: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: United Airline
Posted 2009-12-30 23:20:52 and read 16869 times.

When will they start installing new first class seats+AVOD on their B 747-400s?

Will they remove first class completely? Doubt it since most of BA's competitors have first class products. CX, SQ, QF, JL, UA etc. I suppose they are not installing first class on a few planes which they never had plans to put first class on right? The B 777s?

When the A380/B777-300ER/B787 arrive I suppose they will have first class too right?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LHR380
Posted 2009-12-30 23:35:22 and read 16826 times.



Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
When will they start installing new first class seats+AVOD on their B 747-400s?

First wont go.

It is getting a new revamp early next year.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2009-12-31 00:07:40 and read 16742 times.

BA 744s all have AVOD already.

New F, W and Y will probably not be installed on the 744s as they are being replaced by the 77Ws and 380s.

BA's 744s are still great aircraft with an excellent hard product in all classes. F is a bit dated but not bad, J is state-of-the-art and W and Y are pretty much what they are everywhere. I only fly Y and while I am looking forward to BA's new Y product, the 744 is still a favorite of mine. Other than I guess a 380 (which I haven't flown yet), nothing quite has the same feeling. A 777 does feel much smaller.

I think BA's 744s are still some of the best-looking airplanes, inside and out, and I'll be sad to see them go.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Parapente
Posted 2009-12-31 00:40:35 and read 16636 times.

Just come back from Vancouver BA 744.You just can't beat them (BA and the 744).What a combo! Complaints?Food could have been a little more interesting (Y).Otherwise great.I have also flown this route Biz BA -fantastic as well. The only thing (nothing to do with BA) is that the seats must for some be too small.I found them very comfortable (good back support),but I am 5 11" and 12 stone.Any bigger - and many are,and it would be very cramped width wise.I am no seat guru but I recall they are 17.2" - something like that.

I flew Air Canada to Toronto on one of their new 777-300ers last year in economy.Quite simply the best I have experienced.I think the seat was 19"! For what is a short flight (from London) there is simply no need (with this aircraft) to upgrade at all.

BTW there is so much talk about fragmentation and the demise of first.My flights were pretty full (744) both ways in all classes,I wonder what BA will put on this flight?777 or 380? or perhaps a mix?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: United Airline
Posted 2009-12-31 02:42:07 and read 16357 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 2):
New F, W and Y will probably not be installed on the 744s as they are being replaced by the 77Ws and 380s.

BA's 744s are still great aircraft with an excellent hard product in all classes. F is a bit dated but not bad, J is state-of-the-art and W and Y are pretty much what they are everywhere. I only fly Y and while I am looking forward to BA's new Y product, the 744 is still a favorite of mine. Other than I guess a 380 (which I haven't flown yet), nothing quite has the same feeling. A 777 does feel much smaller.

Thought they were going to install new F class seats on the B 747-400s. Well they should since these birds will be around for many years to come

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: TristarSteve
Posted 2009-12-31 03:00:34 and read 16293 times.



Quoting United Airline (Reply 4):
Thought they were going to install new F class seats on the B 747-400s

The first B744 with new First should surface in January.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2009-12-31 03:05:08 and read 16279 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 2):
I only fly Y and while I am looking forward to BA's new Y product,

I believe the new Y is going to be installed on the 77W's

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LHR380
Posted 2009-12-31 03:19:23 and read 16210 times.

Course the 747 will get it. She is one of the prides of the BA fleet and a fantastic aircraft to fly on. Especially up top.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: MMEPHX
Posted 2009-12-31 03:41:17 and read 16131 times.



Quoting LHR380 (Reply 1):
First wont go.

It is getting a new revamp early next year.

Probably not going completely but certainly being reduced. BA said back in May that future deliveries would have either no F or much reduced. The demand is just not there on many routes. I can see a couple of routes LHR-JFK, LHR-SYD keeping F with maybe a couple of Asian destinations but that is about it, very hard for companies to justify the cost of F when Business Class is so good on BA.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...2/british-airways-first-class-loss

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Scrappy27
Posted 2009-12-31 04:03:42 and read 16067 times.

I thought the 777's were gonna be converted to the new first config seats first. (thats what the communication was to crew)

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LACA773
Posted 2009-12-31 06:45:27 and read 14890 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 2):

BA's 744s are still great aircraft with an excellent hard product in all classes. F is a bit dated but not bad, J is state-of-the-art and W and Y are pretty much what they are everywhere. I only fly Y and while I am looking forward to BA's new Y product, the 744 is still a favorite of mine. Other than I guess a 380 (which I haven't flown yet), nothing quite has the same feeling. A 777 does feel much smaller.

I think BA's 744s are still some of the best-looking airplanes, inside and out, and I'll be sad to see them go.

I agree with you completely BOACCunard!
The only thing I feel BA needs to upgrade is their W cabins. Is it true that the premium W is only different in the manner of having two less seats per row on the 744 with a bit more leg room? They need to offer a product that is different in other regards to Y and upgrade the meal service like VS has done as well as NZ (though I don't see them going that far as NZ's premium Y catering is phenomenal from what I've read and seen in photos.)

Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 8):
Probably not going completely but certainly being reduced. BA said back in May that future deliveries would have either no F or much reduced. The demand is just not there on many routes. I can see a couple of routes LHR-JFK, LHR-SYD keeping F with maybe a couple of Asian destinations but that is about it, very hard for companies to justify the cost of F when Business Class is so good on BA.

I'm sure there are routes that could do without P (F) but there are some that you don't mention that do quite well with P(F). LAX, SFO, ORD all do quite well with revenue passengers in P & J. I would be interested to see how PHX, DEN, SEA, PHL, ATL do with P as well as MEX, GIG, SCL, EZE etc..

Will the 77Ws they'll be receiving all have P/J/W/Y or will they have some that will just have J/W/Y? What routes will see 77Ws?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Nclmedic
Posted 2009-12-31 07:33:35 and read 14356 times.

BA will never completely dump F will the revamp round the corner (and later than planned) although reducing it on lower premium routes seems a good idea - AF for example has many lower yielding flights from CDG without F, whereas most of BA's long-haul services ex-LHR have F, which will be dead weight on many routes. CW is a great product and works (at least did before the recession) for the company.

Removing F has worked for several companies - I'm pretty sure NZ used to have a first class before reducing to a two-class model (now 3 again with their PE). BA needs to keep it to stay on top of the competition when we start recovering from this crisis.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-12-31 08:32:06 and read 13762 times.



Quoting Nclmedic (Reply 11):
BA will never completely dump F will the revamp round the corner (and later than planned) although reducing it on lower premium routes seems a good idea

I looked quickly a little while ago and BA and AAr seem to have the most first class seats of any airlines out there, so cutting it down wouldn't kill them.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: JAL
Posted 2009-12-31 09:12:57 and read 13369 times.

Other airlines might get rid of First Class but not BA, First Class is one thing Virgin doesn't have so BA will keep it!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2009-12-31 09:22:09 and read 13283 times.



Quoting JAL (Reply 13):
one thing Virgin doesn't have so BA will keep it!

Upper Class?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: TristarSteve
Posted 2009-12-31 09:36:17 and read 13131 times.



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 10):
What routes will see 77Ws?

The list I have seen is BOM first then DEL and with the third aircraft Chicago.
But I'm sure that will change!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: JER757
Posted 2009-12-31 09:43:17 and read 13065 times.



Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 14):
Upper Class?

VS Upper Class is classified as Business.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Rwy8l
Posted 2009-12-31 10:16:17 and read 12766 times.



Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Will they remove first class completely?





BLASPHEMOUS! LOL

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2009-12-31 12:05:51 and read 12087 times.



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 5):
The first B744 with new First should surface in January.

Hmm. Well, that's nice to hear!

Now where did I read that the 744 wasn't getting it at all?!

Too bad we won't see new W and Y next month, though.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 10):
The only thing I feel BA needs to upgrade is their W cabins. Is it true that the premium W is only different in the manner of having two less seats per row on the 744 with a bit more leg room?

Yes, I believe the seat is the only difference.

I agree that it would be more appealing if the catering was different.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
I looked quickly a little while ago and BA and AAr seem to have the most first class seats of any airlines out there, so cutting it down wouldn't kill them.

I think UA is the champion of F in the US. AA only has it on the 772 fleet. UA has it on all its international-configured aircraft - 763, 772 and 744.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2009-12-31 12:23:25 and read 11952 times.

Quoting Parapente (Reply 3):
Just come back from Vancouver BA 744.You just can't beat them

You can certainly beat the 744 in operating costs. It's hard to compete when you have to match other carriers' fares but are flying an aircraft that burns 20-25% more fuel than twin-engine types of similar capacity such as the 77W. Many 744s are also reaching an age where maintenance becomes a big cost factor.

[Edited 2009-12-31 12:24:09]

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: AirNz
Posted 2009-12-31 12:31:00 and read 11898 times.



Quoting JAL (Reply 13):
First Class is one thing Virgin doesn't have so BA will keep it!

Incorrect I'm afraid.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Evomutant
Posted 2009-12-31 12:39:23 and read 11851 times.



Quoting AirNz (Reply 20):
Quoting JAL (Reply 13):
First Class is one thing Virgin doesn't have so BA will keep it!

Incorrect I'm afraid.

How so?

Virgin Upper class is a J product, not an F one. They say as much on their website.

If you mean that that in itself is no reason for BA to keep F, I quite agree.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Readytotaxi
Posted 2009-12-31 12:44:24 and read 11803 times.

Just a thought,
if you had design control over BA First Class cabin on the 747, would you steal the top deck for yourself or stay with the nose section?
For me I would go for the top deck, like LH, but I think they missed a few opportunities with the space to make it a world of their own.
A mix of the A380 shower and so on would really put BA in the lead with First Class service but a bold step forward I think they will pass on.
Opportunity missed?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: VS744
Posted 2009-12-31 13:21:07 and read 11606 times.

Virgin Upper is a product that sits above Club World and below BA First, however it is such a good product that why would you consider BA First's premium? other than the fact that the cabin on a BA a/c is more secluded I dont think there are that many other reasons to have a First product any more....unless you've got an A380 and those private cabins.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-12-31 14:01:21 and read 11410 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 18):
I think UA is the champion of F in the US.

They have it on the most routes, but have fewer seats on each flight. Really, I think that the approach of having F only on selected routes is quite sound, but AA and BA probably have too many seats. There seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence on A*net that AA's first class is often filled by nonrevs and upgrades.

Quoting VS744 (Reply 23):
other than the fact that the cabin on a BA a/c is more secluded I dont think there are that many other reasons to have a First product any more

There are if you have people who will pay for it, or have corporate contracts that stipulate a first class section.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2009-12-31 14:29:14 and read 11258 times.



Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 22):
if you had design control over BA First Class cabin on the 747, would you steal the top deck for yourself or stay with the nose section?

Nose. The nose of the 747 is a very unique space. The upper deck is nice and does rather feel like, say, an all-J A318, but the nose has a unique feeling of spaciousness and exclusivity.

Quoting VS744 (Reply 23):
Virgin Upper is a product that sits above Club World and below BA First, however it is such a good product that why would you consider BA First's premium?

First class is mainly about exclusivity/privacy and personal service. It has a very limited audience and this is why many airlines like VS don't have it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
They have it on the most routes, but have fewer seats on each flight. Really, I think that the approach of having F only on selected routes is quite sound, but AA and BA probably have too many seats. There seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence on A*net that AA's first class is often filled by nonrevs and upgrades.

Ah, I see what you mean now - the most F seats in one aircraft. I thought you meant the most F seats in a fleet.

AA and BA have older products and thus more seats. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of F seats goes down when the new product is introduced.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2009-12-31 14:35:46 and read 11691 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 25):
I wouldn't be surprised if the number of F seats goes down when the new product is introduced.

They would be stupid not to in my opinion. Business classes have gotten better over the past few years, plus the state of the economy has not been kind to first class (or business for that matter). I'd say that 4-10 suites in F class that get sold (not given away) would work better than 14 lie flat seats, half of which are filled by nonrevs and free upgrades. I'd love to see BA upgrade their hard product to the standards set by the likes of SQ, EK, or 9W.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2009-12-31 15:06:40 and read 11533 times.

British Airways will always have FIRST Class to certain cities, they may have it on less airplanes but BA will have it. I don't see it being a suite product because BA needs a First on many double and tripple daily destinations.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: VC10er
Posted 2009-12-31 15:49:16 and read 11337 times.

Does anyone have a link or an image for the new BA first class seat? It would be interesting to see what BA does as the were the ones who introduced the fully flat suite (I think).
The irony is how good can first get without getting silly. Like UA's first is pretty damn good, although very United and is ver good just short of great. What BA does I hope will be "great", at least that is what I expect from BA. I was recently on a CO 777 from LHR to EWR, and I was "shocked" at how BAD the seat was. IFE & food was great....but those seats were worse than UA old first seats- by far.
And what about LH's first seats! Surpringly sub par - they must be doing something if a UA first seat is better than LH's!!!???
I don't get all the fuss over a VA first/biz seat. In the begining it was cool, but now, I hate having to get up to make the bed and having a bunch of FA's run over to turn your seat into a bed.
As others here have said, BA 747 is the queen and so why aren't they looking at the 747-800? Seems like it was designed just for them!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: VV701
Posted 2010-01-01 07:46:53 and read 9911 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Business classes have gotten better over the past few years, plus the state of the economy has not been kind to first class (or business for that matter).

I think you might find that the state of the economy has had a smaller impact on BA's first class than their business class cabins.

Those that frequent their first class cabins might include the CEOs of major companies who are either travelling less frequently or now down-grade to Business Claqss. But the forst class cabins are more likely to be occupied by the very rich whose wealth is almost independent of the economy.

Consider David Beckham . He plays football for LA Galaxie, Milan and England, His contract with LA Galaxie is worth £128 million over 5-years. He probably earns more off the football field than on it. He has homes in Los Angeles and Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, England. So he crosses the Atlantic frequently.

Then there's Sarah Jessica Palmer. She was on a chat show on British TV last night. She was over here for the British premier of her latest film, "Did You Hear About the Morgans" that is released in the UK today (1 January).

Sarah Jessica's co-star in "Did You Hear About the Morgans" is the British actor, Hugh Grant. Last September he publicly stated that he had flown from New York to London just to play a round of golf. And if the Wikipedia statement that he has earned $2.4 billion from the films he has made is even anywhere near being in the right ball park, it is pretty certain he did not fly trans-Atlantic in economy class,

These sorts of people will travel F Class whatever the state of the economy provided a lot of us are still prepared to pay good money to go and watch them play football, see their latest film or whatever. And this is one clear reason why BA are about to announce an upgrade to their first class cabin.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: United Airline
Posted 2010-01-01 11:27:11 and read 9676 times.



Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 8):
Probably not going completely but certainly being reduced. BA said back in May that future deliveries would have either no F or much reduced. The demand is just not there on many routes. I can see a couple of routes LHR-JFK, LHR-SYD keeping F with maybe a couple of Asian destinations but that is about it, very hard for companies to justify the cost of F when Business Class is so good on BA.

HKG will always have first class too.

I suppose the B 777-300ERs, B 747-400s, A 380s will always have first class seats right?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-01-01 11:30:59 and read 9649 times.



Quoting VV701 (Reply 29):
Consider David Beckham . He plays football for LA Galaxie, Milan and England, His contract with LA Galaxie is worth £128 million over 5-years. He probably earns more off the football field than on it. He has homes in Los Angeles and Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, England. So he crosses the Atlantic frequently.

When people reach that category, much of their travel is often on business jets.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Shankly
Posted 2010-01-01 11:34:38 and read 9637 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 25):
Nose. The nose of the 747 is a very unique space. The upper deck is nice and does rather feel like, say, an all-J A318, but the nose has a unique feeling of spaciousness and exclusivity

Agree BOACCunard. It also allows the 1st class pax to turn left on cabin entry which is a MUST!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2010-01-01 11:37:58 and read 9633 times.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 31):
When people reach that category, much of their travel is often on business jets.

But when it isn't, they're up front in First Class, I imagine in no small part because of the additional level of privacy offered on the ground and in the air.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LondonCity
Posted 2010-01-01 13:56:20 and read 9479 times.



Quoting VS744 (Reply 23):
Virgin Upper is a product that sits above Club World and below BA First, however it is such a good product that why would you consider BA First's premium? other than the fact that the cabin on a BA a/c is more secluded I dont think there are that many other reasons to have a First product any more....unless you've got an A380 and those private cabins.

VS' Upper Class is also suffering in the economic downturn. But have you seen its latest Upper Class configuration now being installed on its B747 flights ex-LHR ?

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...gin-to-cut-business-class-capacity

How can this remotely be compared to BA's F product ? VS has decided to mix Upper Class and Economy class (normal Y class not PE) passengers on the B747's upper deck. Unless a second toilet is installed on the B747's upper deck, it means 10 Upper Class passengers have a share one toilet with 33 Y class passengers.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 27):
British Airways will always have FIRST Class to certain cities, they may have it on less airplanes but BA will have it. I don't see it being a suite product because BA needs a First on many double and tripple daily destinations

Agreed. A serious airline must provide a First class cabin when flying key routes to the US, Middle East and Asia. It is unthinkable for a business carrier not to offer First class into cities like New York, Chicago, Dubai, Abu Dhabi. S'pore, H Kong and Tokyo.
I did read that Virgin's lack of First class on the Tokyo route meant it wasn't as successful as it would like to be in the corporate market.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Readytotaxi
Posted 2010-01-02 06:19:52 and read 8980 times.



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 34):
How can this remotely be compared to BA's F product ? VS has decided to mix Upper Class and Economy class (normal Y class not PE) passengers on the B747's upper deck. Unless a second toilet is installed on the B747's upper deck, it means 10 Upper Class passengers have a share one toilet with 33 Y class passengers.

Heck, once this gets around UpperClass frequent flyers with Virgin are going to want to give this cabin a big miss.Not a good idea.  no 

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Eugdog
Posted 2010-01-02 07:01:23 and read 8909 times.

I note that on their LHR _JFK flights half the plane was taken up with Ist and business class. On other flights LHR _PHX premium services occupied a far less preportion of the plane. TBA have a triple whammy of woes

a) global recession
b) banking crisis seriously hitting their cash cow LHR-JFK especially premium
c) open skies policy which broke up the 4 airline monopoly LHR - USA.

When there were 4 airlines allowed to operate from LHR to the USA they could charge extortionate prces for 1st class (double that of a similar flight from Paris or Rome to JFK). How badly has the new treaty effected this gravy train!

LHR - LAS would have not first class since it is a tourist route

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LimaNiner
Posted 2010-01-02 08:01:47 and read 8793 times.



Quoting Shankly (Reply 32):
It also allows the 1st class pax to turn left on cabin entry which is a MUST!

Also, wheelchair-bound pax (e.g., older pax -- a likely target demographic for F) don't have to climb stairs to get to their seats.

I have to agree with earlier comments that LH F looks surprisingly austere, at least from the photos I've seen on A*net.

In my mind, one of the things that defines an F seat is the fact that every seat has direct aisle access, so nobody will ever climb (or be climbed) over to get to the aisle.

VS selling Upper Class as a J seat is great marketing, allowing them to sell to corporate customers whose employers pay for travel in J, but not F.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: 1stfl94
Posted 2010-01-02 08:33:28 and read 8744 times.



Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 37):
Also, wheelchair-bound pax (e.g., older pax -- a likely target demographic for F) don't have to climb stairs to get to their seats.

Under anti discrimination laws in the UK it would be illegal for BA to put F upstairs on the 747s as it would prevent disabled access. This is the same reason that Virgin has to split PE on the Gatwick 747s between upstairs and downstairs.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Tonystan
Posted 2010-01-02 08:47:16 and read 8708 times.

The first fleet to be rolled out with the new First product is the 777 however there are no plans at this time to remove First from any 747's and they will start to receive the new cabin once the 777 refit is complete!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Mutu
Posted 2010-01-02 11:14:14 and read 8513 times.



Quoting Eugdog (Reply 36):
When there were 4 airlines allowed to operate from LHR to the USA they could charge extortionate prces for 1st class (double that of a similar flight from Paris or Rome to JFK). How badly has the new treaty effected this gravy train!

Do you have any evidence to support this view? In my experience a fully flexible F fare hasnt chnged that much over the past 8 years LHR/JFK, perhaps a little spike upwards when Conorde was out of service, but much of that traffic then went private jet rather than F (although there re a few Concorde regulars frequently on F).....

Dont forget with only a 14 seat cabin its not exactly a gravy train and many insiders have ver the years commented that the F cabin barely makes profit. Tht comes from J and W cabins.

As for (say)CDG/LHR/JFK well that is typiclly cheaper than CDG/JFK on (say) AF for reasons we all kno well.

So just wondered the basis of your statement?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: AirNz
Posted 2010-01-02 11:27:36 and read 8493 times.



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 34):
it means 10 Upper Class passengers have a share one toilet with 33 Y class passengers.

Sorry, can you enlarge on that please? Has ego gotten to the extreme where it's now 'important'
which toilet one uses?

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 34):
I did read that Virgin's lack of First class on the Tokyo route meant it wasn't as successful as it would like to be in the corporate market.

I certainly would beg to differ on that.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 29):
So he crosses the Atlantic frequently.

I don't mean to be funny, but I cross the Atlantic very frequently, as do very many others......of what real significance is David Beckham or Sarah Jessica Parker also doing it?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LondonCity
Posted 2010-01-02 11:49:33 and read 8461 times.



Quoting AirNz (Reply 41):
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 34):
it means 10 Upper Class passengers have a share one toilet with 33 Y class passengers.

Sorry, can you enlarge on that please? Has ego gotten to the extreme where it's now 'important'
which toilet one uses?



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 34):
I did read that Virgin's lack of First class on the Tokyo route meant it wasn't as successful as it would like to be in the corporate market.

I certainly would beg to differ on that.

1. Upper Class is supposed to provide exclusivity and preferential treatment both on the ground and in the air. Otherwise Upper Class passengers would not pay such a huge price premium. If a second toilet were not fitted, and I am not sure of the timescale for installation, then there will be occasions during the flight when economy passengers tramp through business class and so there will be queues for the single toilet at the front of the B747's upper zone. One would not expect to find such a scenario in a proper business class.


2. I remember reading, in Flight Global online I believe earlier last year, that Sir RB was quoted in Japan in saying that VS hadn't been as successful as he would have wished in the local corporate market because his airline did not offer a proper F class.

You have to understand that in Japan there is a hierarchy attached to corporate travel. For reasons of "face" (so important in Asia), company presidents, for example, would not be seen flying in any other class, other than First. That is why JL and ANA provide F class on most of their long distance services. A corporation might not decide to place its custom with VS for this very reason.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Eugdog
Posted 2010-01-02 13:02:03 and read 8337 times.



Quoting Mutu (Reply 40):
Do you have any evidence to support this view? In my experience a fully flexible F fare hasnt chnged that much over the past 8 years LHR/JFK, perhaps a little spike upwards when Conorde was out of service, but much of that traffic then went private jet rather than F (although there re a few Concorde regulars frequently on F).....

Dont forget with only a 14 seat cabin its not exactly a gravy train and many insiders have ver the years commented that the F cabin barely makes profit. Tht comes from J and W cabins

I had a slight typo - how the opening up LHR was effect BA gravy train was a question I was asking and not a statement. I cannot speak for first class but how have business class fares been effected by the opening up of LHR? I would be very surprised if it has not been effected now that Delta/NWA and Continental have entered the fray! maybe not so much in fares but in numbers perhaps?

Regarding profitabilty of 1st class it is very difficult to ascertain the profitability of a particular class because almost all the costs are fixed cost. How much of the fixed costs due you apportion to a 1st class seat? It is impossible to get a clear answer. In my view the guide line for cost of 1st class is how many business class tickets have you lost by providing 1st class service. If the answer is zero then the only cost to be considered is the extra fuel burned by the extra wieght of the extra seats, champagne, crockery and people!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: VV701
Posted 2010-01-02 15:50:01 and read 8196 times.



Quoting AirNz (Reply 41):
I don't mean to be funny, but I cross the Atlantic very frequently, as do very many others......of what real significance is David Beckham or Sarah Jessica Parker also doing it?

At the risk of repeting myself:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 29):
Consider David Beckham . He plays football for LA Galaxie, Milan and England, His contract with LA Galaxie is worth £128 million over 5-years. He probably earns more off the football field than on it.

If you earn more than a quarter of a billion pounds over 5 years or if you earn the sort of money Sarah Jessica Parker was paid for making "Did You Hear About the Morgans" or if you had even noted the context of my reply - a suggestion that the trans-Atlantic F Class passenger was all but an extinct species - as a very regular north Atlantic passenger yourself you would not have needed to ask this question. Or am I being presumptious in thinking that your regular North Atlantic crossings are not as an F Class passenger?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LACA773
Posted 2010-01-02 20:58:31 and read 8036 times.



Quoting VC10er (Reply 28):
the were the ones who introduced the fully flat suite (I think).
The irony is how good can first get without getting silly. Like UA's first is pretty damn good, although very United and is ver good just short of great. What BA does I hope will be "great", at least that is what I expect from BA

What UA has done with their P (F) seats on their 744s/763s are very nice. They need to get moving on their 77Es. There's a lot more to P service other than the seat and UA has multiple problems with it. Talk about outward frugalness! Their catering is a bad joke. BA will always outshine UA in P as will all of UA competitors who offer a P (F) product/cabin.

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 37):
I have to agree with earlier comments that LH F looks surprisingly austere, at least from the photos I've seen on A*net.

.

True. It's very dated but they will be replacing it in the very near future. I believe this will be taking place with the arival of their first 388s.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Nzrich
Posted 2010-01-03 00:08:50 and read 7905 times.



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 10):
and upgrade the meal service like VS has done as well as NZ (though I don't see them going that far as NZ's premium Y catering is phenomenal from what I've read and seen in photos.)

NZ's premium economy meals and wine are all business class food and wines ..

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: VC10er
Posted 2010-01-03 01:35:03 and read 7839 times.



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 45):

Agree on UA food and other First class frills. A RCC look like a Marriott circa 1985. I know, I've been in them since 1993 and they looked dated already. But of all "North American" carriers the UA F & C are better seats than AA, CO and the rest- not at par with many Asian or Euro airlines. Just the seats! I'm dying to see what BA will do!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LACA773
Posted 2010-01-03 22:12:40 and read 7379 times.



Quoting VC10er (Reply 47):
Agree on UA food and other First class frills. A RCC look like a Marriott circa 1985. I know, I've been in them since 1993 and they looked dated already. But of all "North American" carriers the UA F & C are better seats than AA, CO and the rest- not at par with many Asian or Euro airlines. Just the seats! I'm dying to see what BA will do!

It's time to take CO out of the pack as they do not offer international F(P). In fact, when they get their J cabins refurbished, I think you'll find them to be way ahead of UA's new product which still has not been completed. The new CO BizFirst are the same or very close to what LX has and what DL is installing on the 764s and soon to be 763ERs.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2010-01-03 22:46:48 and read 7360 times.

I think the talk of BA removing F class is pure nonsense. London has one of the highest concentrations of wealth in the world, probably higher than New York because of African/Asian/Continental expat money. Even if many people are fleeing because of Darling's 'wondrous for the treasury' taxes, all shan't flee. BA would be silly to neglect their base and send these customers to Lufthansa, AFKL, and private options.

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 22):
if you had design control over BA First Class cabin on the 747, would you steal the top deck for yourself or stay with the nose section?

Nose.

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 22):
For me I would go for the top deck, like LH, but I think they missed a few opportunities with the space to make it a world of their own.
A mix of the A380 shower and so on would really put BA in the lead with First Class service but a bold step forward I think they will pass on.
Opportunity missed?

Nice idea, but you'd then be sacrificing all those J seats. The most suitable thing is to have a well appointed, well designed, well stocked, spacious F bathroom. Not the typical airliner W/C... BA could still keep 10 or 12 or the current 14 F seats on the 747-400.

Quoting Eugdog (Reply 36):
c) open skies policy which broke up the 4 airline monopoly LHR - USA.

When there were 4 airlines allowed to operate from LHR to the USA they could charge extortionate prces for 1st class (double that of a similar flight from Paris or Rome to JFK). How badly has the new treaty effected this gravy train!

The vast majority of LHR new entrants do not even have F class. It might be a factor for business, but BA tops most of them anyway.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LondonCity
Posted 2010-01-04 02:02:11 and read 7267 times.



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 49):
I think the talk of BA removing F class is pure nonsense

Exactly. What must also be stressed is that BA, like AF and LH, are global carriers are so they must meet the demands of their markets around the world. As noted above there are areas of the world - N America, Middle East/Gulf, Asia - where an airline cannot be considered "serious" unless it offers F class.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-01-04 02:09:14 and read 7238 times.



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 50):
As noted above there are areas of the world - N America, Middle East/Gulf, Asia - where an airline cannot be considered "serious" unless it offers F class.

I don't think that North America qualifies as part of that. Last time I checked, Continental and Delta were taken pretty seriously.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2010-01-04 13:53:47 and read 6879 times.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
I don't think that North America qualifies as part of that. Last time I checked, Continental and Delta were taken pretty seriously.

And NW before it merged with DL. And AC. And CP before it merged with AC.

And given that NW was certainly taken seriously in Japan, I even wonder if Japan is a market in which a serious airline must have first class.

Of course, there are those who fly first class, and they certainly won't take an airline that doesn't have it seriously, but not many people fly first class.

There is a market for it, and as long as there is some airlines will serve that market, but it is by no means mandatory in most markets. That said, it does add prestige and for that reason there are some airlines like BA, CX and SQ that I just can't see eliminating it.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: VC10er
Posted 2010-01-04 16:33:33 and read 6761 times.



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 48):

I hope I do like the new CO seats and it would be great if they were as good (if not better) than UA's New First Suite. I would then make the jump. I heard they will be in a "stepped" arrangement which (I assume) means you never have to sit next to someone else. (which is one of the things I like about the UA First seat) this way I can go to the lav 50 times and I won't bother the person next to me!
I love CO like so many people do, but given I spend half my life in an airplane seat, I get very particular. CO just never had a business first seat I liked. I think they have the BEST food in the sky though!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2010-01-04 18:52:38 and read 6688 times.



Quoting VC10er (Reply 53):
I hope I do like the new CO seats and it would be great if they were as good (if not better) than UA's New First Suite.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect that. One is an F product, one is a J product.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 53):
I heard they will be in a "stepped" arrangement which (I assume) means you never have to sit next to someone else.

It doesn't. You have to sit next to someone else.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BAStew
Posted 2010-01-09 10:33:39 and read 6450 times.

New FIRST update:

The first A/C (a 777) to receive the new FIRST cabin goes into the Cardiff BA Maitenence Centre on Monday, 11 January for fitting of the new cabin. Embodiment will take approx three weeks, so by the end of JAN the cabin will definitely be 'revealed'.

A quote from 'BA News' this week regarding the future of FIRST by Martin Broughton, Chairman:
"It's an exciting project, one in which we have invested around GBP100M in enhancing levels of comfort and service. FIRST remains a very important segment of the longhaul market, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO PROVIDE FOR AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT with dedication and flair"

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Comorin
Posted 2010-01-09 12:18:12 and read 6340 times.

VS Upper Class is in no sense an F product. It is aimed at those whose companies fly their associates across the pond - your typical Wall Street or City entry-level type. There is a whole pecking order in the corporate world as to who flies what, and I would say that Club World and Upper Class appeal to the right brain and left brained side of that market. As the birits are fond of saying, it's Horse for Courses (I have never understood what that means).

As a product too, Upper Class lacks exclusivity. While I am mightily impressed with the Food and Clubhouse at LHR, there are just too many J pax staring at you during the flight, thanks to the herringbone arrangement. On BA, even though the new CW seats are great, they do remind one of cubicles - a bit too enclosed.

F is for those who are CEOs and need privacy from silly underlings who make less than a million a year. Especially on long haul flights, when you are at your most undignified. Nevertheless, they don't necessarily want privacy from their peers - a point not well understood by all. Even if BA replaced its F cabin with wooden chairs there would still be a market.

Finally F needs to be way upfront, and the nose of a 747 is the best place in the world. Upper Deck is fine too, but harder to access.

If you keep your F cabin small and exclusive, free of nonrevs, FFs and babies, you should have a great and profitable product.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Jack02116
Posted 2010-01-09 12:59:04 and read 6286 times.

Sure some of you have already seen this, but .......... his was posted on businesstraveller.com as an artists impression of the new BA FIRST cabin

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LondonCity
Posted 2010-01-09 13:14:20 and read 6251 times.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 56):
As a product too, Upper Class lacks exclusivity

Especially on VS' B747-400 services ex-LHR where the new "configuration number 4" means that up to 10 Upper Class pax must share the upper deck with up to 33 economy class pax. The new arrangement starts this month.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LACA773
Posted 2010-01-09 13:45:40 and read 6215 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 54):
It doesn't. You have to sit next to someone else.

The seat is seperated by a partition type short wall if you could call it that. If I knew how to attach a photo, I would do so. So you will not be having to climb over someone to get up.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2010-01-09 14:16:56 and read 6194 times.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 56):
Horses for Courses (I have never understood what that means).

Horses for courses means that what is suitable for one person or situation might be unsuitable for another. Comes from the fact that a racehorse performs best on a racecourse that it is best suited too. So some people find Club World suits them; others Upper Class.

Looks like BA is doing what it said all along - evolving the hard product and putting focus on the soft product, hence the fact the BA coat of arms has made a come back in First, as the motto "To Fly To Serve" fits nicely what BA want to do. I suppose it's a subtle way of saying you can have gimmicks, or you can have class.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2010-01-09 16:06:08 and read 6104 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 52):

And given that NW was certainly taken seriously in Japan, I even wonder if Japan is a market in which a serious airline must have first class.

NW's success in Japan/Asia was mainly in the Y cabin.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 56):
VS Upper Class is in no sense an F product.

Exactly. A bunch of marketing posturing nonsense started by Branson. Can't blame the man at all. But Upper Class is no = to any F. There are too many seats in herringbone arrangement.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 56):
Nevertheless, they don't necessarily want privacy from their peers - a point not well understood by all.

 checkmark  I like to see and be seen too.

Quoting Jack02116 (Reply 57):

www.leggatts.co.uk/images/bafirst.png

And I'll take 2A.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2010-01-09 17:14:02 and read 6039 times.



Quoting LACA773 (Reply 59):
The seat is seperated by a partition type short wall if you could call it that. ... So you will not be having to climb over someone to get up.

Sure, but you're still sitting next to someone else.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 61):
NW's success in Japan/Asia was mainly in the Y cabin.

Does that make it "not serious?"

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2010-01-09 21:09:33 and read 5920 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 62):
Does that make it "not serious?"

Not in the least, just a different market segment. I believe most of the J traffic on NW US-Japan-Asia was from the US side. They sure did have a significant Japanese following though.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LimaNiner
Posted 2010-01-10 20:36:43 and read 5649 times.



Quoting Jack02116 (Reply 57):
this [...] was posted on businesstraveller.com as an artists impression of the new BA FIRST cabin

Egads!

I hope that's just a rough mock-up of the layout (how is it different from the current layout?), and not of the finishes... lacking high-end finishes in the form of wood, etc., seems like a major step-down...

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LACA773
Posted 2010-01-10 22:05:26 and read 5597 times.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 62):
Sure, but you're still sitting next to someone else.

Then you need to fly a carrier that has a P cabin or a herringbone configuration in J.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Tonystan
Posted 2010-01-11 00:48:16 and read 5519 times.



Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 64):
lacking high-end finishes in the form of wood

Ugh, wood is so ninties! Fortunately there will be very little "wood" effect in the new cabin, its tacky. You need to remember that there is no wood in any cabin as it is a fire hazard...its usually just an effect like lino on a kitchen floor! If you dont like that picture then you may be a little disappointed by the new cabin! LOL!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LY777
Posted 2010-01-11 01:24:36 and read 5472 times.

When will BA get the 77Ws?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LHR380
Posted 2010-01-11 02:13:16 and read 5442 times.

The BA News has said the first plane to get the new refit is getting taken out of service to be fitted next week, a 777. Shame it is not a 744.

Very interested to see what it looks like.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: TristarSteve
Posted 2010-01-11 03:02:30 and read 5331 times.

Yes IIU is ETA CWL 1101 for its first class refit.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Normie999
Posted 2010-01-11 04:00:27 and read 5247 times.

Will BA ever remove First Class Completely? - "Ever" is a very long time but in the foreseeable future it surely must be safe for all the reasons stated above. Plus BA's product is pretty distinctive - a haven of restrained comfort compared to the wanton extravagance of some of the new upstarts. For a little more on BA's poll position in the market, see here

http://insidetraveller.co.uk/blog/?p=726

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Jack02116
Posted 2010-01-11 05:01:44 and read 5191 times.

Anyone know when BA intend to release details / pictures of the actual cabin. I am travelling in First to Dubai second week of Feb on a 777 so may just be lucky ...... though I guess the refitted planes may be rostered on the higher profile routes - although that didnt seem to be the case with the CW refit.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2010-01-11 06:08:08 and read 5093 times.



Quoting Jack02116 (Reply 71):
Anyone know when BA intend to release details / pictures of the actual cabin

I believe Mr Walsh stated it would be sometime this week

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LHR380
Posted 2010-01-11 06:22:46 and read 5082 times.



Quoting Jack02116 (Reply 71):

The first few NCW fitted 744's and 77's were mainly put on the JFK route to start with.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Sketty222
Posted 2010-01-11 06:32:20 and read 5068 times.



Quoting Jack02116 (Reply 71):
Anyone know when BA intend to release details / pictures of the actual cabin

I believe Mr Walsh stated it would be sometime this week

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: BAStew
Posted 2010-01-11 07:00:54 and read 5027 times.

I know that BA have absolutely NO plans of dedicating this aircraft to any particular route and also that as this will be the sole aircraft to receive the new cabin for a while (they want it to fly around and identify any glitches) there won't be any marketing campaign for it.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Jfk777
Posted 2010-01-11 07:46:13 and read 4955 times.

I wonder if the new PRIME or First will look anything like the First on Qantas A380's ?

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: Tonystan
Posted 2010-01-11 08:04:34 and read 4925 times.

Youll like it people as long as you dont expect bling, bells, whistles and little doors that rattle across!!!!

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LimaNiner
Posted 2010-01-19 15:18:37 and read 4553 times.



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 74):
I believe Mr Walsh stated it would be sometime this week

Did this happen?

ba.com doesn't seem to have been updated...

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: VV701
Posted 2010-01-19 17:55:13 and read 4450 times.



Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 78):
Did this happen?

I would have thought that it was most likely to happen when the first aircraft fitted with the new cabin returns from CWL.

I do not know how long it takes to fit out the new cabin but around three weeks seems at least reasonable. As I said before, the first aircraft, 772 G-VIIU, ferried to CWL to be fitted out on 11 January. So it might be back at LHR for a possible press conference perhaps at the end of the month or in early February.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: LACA773
Posted 2010-01-19 20:00:56 and read 4382 times.



Quoting Tonystan (Reply 77):
Youll like it people as long as you dont expect bling, bells, whistles and little doors that rattle across!!!!

In other words, something that can be quite gawdy & tacky.

Topic: RE: Will BA Remove First Class Completely?
Username: AlitaliaDC10
Posted 2010-01-19 21:30:14 and read 4330 times.

...the new BA First will be similar to the QF and CX First product.

As stated it will not be enclosed like SQ/EK/EY.

BA did a lot of research with their premium pax and like QF they preferred non enclosed suites.

It will be great I'm sure and looking forward to flying it soon.


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