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Topic: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: JakeOrion
Posted 2010-02-09 06:14:14 and read 7980 times.

http://intransit.blogs.nytimes.com/2...must-pay-for-blankets-on-american/

Quote:
American Airlines quietly announced last week that it would eliminate free blankets in coach and sell an $8 packet that includes a pillow and blanket starting May 1.

Not to say this is new, as Jetblue and US Airways are already charging, but one must wonder, when will it stop? Or better yet, why not include the price in the ticket already?

Doesn't really matter to me, I always bring my own blanket and neck pillow.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2010-02-09 07:56:07 and read 7732 times.

Quoting JakeOrion (Thread starter):
Doesn't really matter to me, I always bring my own blanket and neck pillow.

Same here...

Having worked for an airline that didnt clean its blankets daily, I would never use one that wasnt pre-packaged. Disgusting doesnt even do the situation justice IMO

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-02-09 08:06:47 and read 7656 times.

Don't forget they give you a $10 coupon off from Bed Bath & Beyond when you spend $30 or more dollars there. LOL!

Quoting JakeOrion (Thread starter):
one must wonder, when will it stop?

As A.net common knowledge dictates, "it's the customer's fault" of course. I swear the GM - Chrysler school of management has taught the legacies management how to run a successful business......... into the ground that is.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-02-09 08:09:04 and read 7644 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 1):
I would never use one that wasnt pre-packaged

Does that imply/guarantee that it was cleaned?

Thanks.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2010-02-09 08:13:02 and read 7611 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 3):
Does that imply/guarantee that it was cleaned?

I can't say with any certainty that it does, no

My assumption is that a laundromat/cleaning company does that. Maybe someone in the know can say

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-09 08:19:10 and read 7575 times.

Quoting JakeOrion (Thread starter):
why not include the price in the ticket already

Because - unlike common 'free' blankets and pillows that were rarely cleaned - these are packaged pillow/blanket sets that are the customer's to keep once they buy it. And furthermore, as has been shown, customers (generally) are unwilling to pay a slightly-higher ticket price that includes free amenities. When given a choice between an all-inclusive price of X vs. a slightly-lower price of Y with 'a-la carte' pricing add-ons for amenities, they'll generally choose Y. So airlines are responding accordingly.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-02-09 08:21:44 and read 7567 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 4):
My assumption is that a laundromat/cleaning company does that. Maybe someone in the know can say

I would assume they will be new and yours to keep. I'm sure they are using a contact manufacturer in Zhejiang, Jinhua, Ningbo or similar as there's two or three dozen manufacturers there making those crappy, static cling filled, plastic blankets. You can get a 52" or similar width blanket with your logo on it for about $3.00 prepackaged in 1,000 gross volumes or more.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Kappel
Posted 2010-02-09 08:47:02 and read 7475 times.

I prefer getting a pillow and blanket on board (that's been cleaned of course). If I have to bring my own blanket and pillow, it only makes it more stuff for me to carry. Either way, I rarely use them anyway, only on longer overnight flights (longer than 8 hours).

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: exFATboy
Posted 2010-02-09 09:01:57 and read 7402 times.

Has anyone seen anything indicating that there's some sort of coupon in the AA pillow/blanket pack, like JetBlue has?

Quoting JakeOrion (Thread starter):
Or better yet, why not include the price in the ticket already?

I never use blankets on a plane, so why should my ticket price include a service I don't use?

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Kappel
Posted 2010-02-09 10:04:24 and read 7252 times.

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 8):
I never use blankets on a plane, so why should my ticket price include a service I don't use?

Good point, and that is the direction we are more and more heading into. Ticket is basic transportation from A to B. Everything you want on top of that, you have to pay for, such as meals, drinks, blankets, pillows, etc. I really hope not all airlines go this route though. I prefer all inclusive tickets (especially on long haul flights) that include a meal, drinks, a CLEAN blanket, etc.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: OzGlobal
Posted 2010-02-09 10:09:05 and read 7225 times.

My simple instruction to the team who book my flights is, "No Amercian carrier, anywhere, any time." And yes, I can manage transcontinental US on QF and most of my other visits to the US are O&D east or west coast, so hasn't been a logistical problem yet ( Of course I still have to deal with the whole TSA nasty, nonetheless).

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Acey559
Posted 2010-02-09 10:22:19 and read 7168 times.

I read the article in the USA Today between classes, and was actually impressed with the last bit of the article. The author mentioned that it's not the airline's fault per se, it's the American people for always wanting lower and lower fares, so this is what you get. I know it's been said on here over and over, but it's nice to see it in writing in mass media. Unfortunately I think the traveling public is probably too dense to even realize that it was their fault to begin with (although not entirely, of course).

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2010-02-09 10:29:00 and read 7129 times.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 11):
The author mentioned that it's not the airline's fault per se, it's the American people for always wanting lower and lower fares, so this is what you get.

Correct in a sense. They know that people will pay it, and the amount of extra revenue makes it worth their while. As a previous posted mentioned, the airline can buy it for $3 and then they turn around and sell for $7?! Thats a great markup!

I doubt very few people, if any, will stop flying an airline just because they make you pay for something you could bring onboard anyways.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2010-02-09 10:35:22 and read 7105 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
Because - unlike common 'free' blankets and pillows that were rarely cleaned - these are packaged pillow/blanket sets that are the customer's to keep once they buy it. And furthermore, as has been shown, customers (generally) are unwilling to pay a slightly-higher ticket price that includes free amenities. When given a choice between an all-inclusive price of X vs. a slightly-lower price of Y with 'a-la carte' pricing add-ons for amenities, they'll generally choose Y. So airlines are responding accordingly.

Exactly.. When the majority of customers shop for a ticket you better believe the first thing they click on is "cheapest fare." The airlines are responding accordingly. Funny how MANY on here think airline employees should continue to take concessions, yet such an uproar when the costs of what some customers may or may not deem valuable is passed along, its the worst thing possible. Wake up folks, the hotel and restaurant ammenities are being removed from the aircraft! Domestically, at least, air travel has become public transportation at best. A pillow and blanket are not necessary to get you from point A to point B. The majority of passengers would loudly object to ANY costs being tacked onto the price of the ticket.. Those that wouldn't are certainly the minority. Again, its an OPTION available if the customer so chooses.



AA ORD

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: contrails
Posted 2010-02-09 10:37:19 and read 7100 times.

I keep thinking back to something a friend, who is a bit older than me, once told me about the demise of passenger train service. He said that one of the things that turned people away from trains was all the nickel and dime charges, including - according to him - charging for blankets.

I can't help but wonder if the airlines aren't making a very serious mistake by instituting these nickel and dime charges, the same kind of charges that help to bring passenger rail service to its demise.

Just a thought.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Acey559
Posted 2010-02-09 10:47:52 and read 7056 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 12):

I agree, I just hope that it might make some people realize that it's not completely the airline's fault. I do hope AA is successful with this, though. Every little bit helps and I understand the need to do what you have to do to survive.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: NASBWI
Posted 2010-02-09 10:52:33 and read 7025 times.

Quoting contrails (Reply 14):
He said that one of the things that turned people away from trains was all the nickel and dime charges, including - according to him - charging for blankets.

I would venture to say that the perceived nickel-and-diming of the train services of yesteryear wasn't the only thing that led to its demise, nor was it the most prominent issue. Given the advances to modernity that this country has gained, peoples' time is increasingly more valuable, and faster modes of transportation are favored over the experience of a train ride with a sleeper. Sure, there are many that are afraid to fly, or have the same fascination with trains as we do with planes. However, for the majority, time is money. Not to mention that train tickets aren't much cheaper than plane tickets (and in some cases, more expensive), and an airplane will get you there much more quickly.

Quoting contrails (Reply 14):
I can't help but wonder if the airlines aren't making a very serious mistake by instituting these nickel and dime charges, the same kind of charges that help to bring passenger rail service to its demise.

Running the risk of echoing many on here, you can't really nickel-and-dime someone for a product that's merely an option. If you were not allowed to bring your own P&B, food, etc, and forced to purchase them onboard, then yes, that would be nickel-and-diming at its best...or worst, as the case may be. Charging a customer to speak to a customer service agent at the airport would be nickel-and-diming. I'm sure if more airlines were to charge exactly what it cost to be able to offer clean pillows and blankets, meals, checked luggage, IFE, and other amenities to be included in your ticket, there would be an uproar about how expensive it is to travel by air. And the winner in that case would be the airline that decided to offer a cheap fare with a la carte pricing.

I can't tell you how many times I've had customers complain to me about having to pay $350rt for a flight to FLL, when "they always used to pay $99". It appears that what customers these days want is the romance and glamor of air travel from the '50s, attached to a Spirit Airlines price, with the convenience of Southwest's no-hidden-fees policies - in an economy where airlines are at the highest risk of losing being that demand for air travel is extremely elastic. Find me an airline in the US where that's financially possible, and I'll eat my words.

[Edited 2010-02-09 10:54:45]

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-02-09 10:53:27 and read 7023 times.

Quoting contrails (Reply 14):
I can't help but wonder if the airlines aren't making a very serious mistake by instituting these nickel and dime charges, the same kind of charges that help to bring passenger rail service to its demise.

The problem is, that with this blanket charge, it is not exactly nickle and diming. Airlines are not required by law to provide these things to pax, so it is not a necessity. If you want it, buy one. AND....the best part? You get to keep it!

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2010-02-09 11:03:34 and read 6962 times.

Quoting contrails (Reply 14):
I can't help but wonder if the airlines aren't making a very serious mistake by instituting these nickel and dime charges, the same kind of charges that help to bring passenger rail service to its demise.

No, and heres why.

these are the current lowest fares for just a few select cities

JFK-LAX $182 one way
ORD-LGA $84 one way
ORD-LAS $148 one way
ORD-MIA $104 one way
DFW-SAT $49 one way

round trip NOT required.

There is the "deal" in airline travel. Where else can one go from NY to LAX in 6 hrs for $182?
No one could drive ORD to MIA in 3 hrs for less than $104

If you want to bring your own food, wear a coat or bring a blanket, pack right and not check a bag, then you have got yourself a bargain. If you want to pay these prices and expect to receive five star treatment, then you're out of touch with reality.

AA ORD

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: nws2002
Posted 2010-02-09 11:09:29 and read 6934 times.

Quoting contrails (Reply 14):
the same kind of charges that help to bring passenger rail service to its demise.

Passenger rail has died in the United States for a variety of reason, the main one being the lack of high-speed rail infrastructure. When someone has a choice they will chose the best value. In the United States air travel is usually the best value when compared with rail or bus.

I think the demise of passenger rail has little to do with whatever ancillary charges were added to passenger fares.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2010-02-09 11:13:14 and read 6914 times.

Quoting contrails (Reply 14):
I can't help but wonder if the airlines aren't making a very serious mistake by instituting these nickel and dime charges, the same kind of charges that help to bring passenger rail service to its demise.

I think its a different dynamic...depending on how far you are going, air travel is easily the quickest way there. Trains just cant do it fast enough. The public will gladly sacrifice time saved over nickle and diming. At least I know I would

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Max999
Posted 2010-02-09 11:19:29 and read 6886 times.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 1):
Having worked for an airline that didnt clean its blankets daily, I would never use one that wasnt pre-packaged. Disgusting doesnt even do the situation justice IMO

What about the blankets / pillows that are wrapped in plastic? I usually get them on long haul flights when they are placed on every seat. I assumed they have been cleaned.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-09 11:21:29 and read 6875 times.

Boy, since this seems to have no end in sight...perhaps it's time to grant LH the cabotage rights to fly for example
FRA-JFK-LAS, QF Qantas (on the existing) SYD-LAX-JFK, MX MEX-LAX-SFO (and anyone else) if they want, carrying local traffic. Because if they can provide their excellent inflight services continuously on US domestic runs, and pax want pay their fees ( thus giving US carriers the scare of their lives... ) let 'em. Since the nickel n dime'ing isn't getting the legacies outta the red...perhaps AA/US/UA etc.. may want to seek refuge by getting outta the airline biz and into the auto sales/mfg business.

BN747

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-09 11:49:08 and read 6793 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
perhaps it's time to grant LH the cabotage rights to fly for example
FRA-JFK-LAS, QF Qantas (on the existing) SYD-LAX-JFK, MX MEX-LAX-SFO (and anyone else) if they want, carrying local traffic

Go for it. Their CASM on these local routes will absolutely kill them while the much-leaner U.S. majors eat them alive.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-02-09 11:56:24 and read 6768 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
Boy, since this seems to have no end in sight...perhaps it's time to grant LH the cabotage rights to fly for example
FRA-JFK-LAS, QF Qantas (on the existing) SYD-LAX-JFK, MX MEX-LAX-SFO (and anyone else) if they want, carrying local traffic. Because if they can provide their excellent inflight services continuously on US domestic runs, and pax want pay their fees ( thus giving US carriers the scare of their lives... ) let 'em. Since the nickel n dime'ing isn't getting the legacies outta the red...perhaps AA/US/UA etc.. may want to seek refuge by getting outta the airline biz and into the auto sales/mfg business.

Ding....ding....ding.....ding, WINNER!

The legacies keep repeating their same insane behavior, over and over and over again, and it never helps or works. Sure it may "help" for a few months or a few quarters, but fundamentally they can't figure anything else out other than..... cut employees wages (stupid), cut more services from customers (more stupid), cut all non-safety spending related items like loyalty programs, advertising, branding, and product investments (yet even more stupid), merge with someone else to get bigger in the vain hope you can have some self control not to flood the market with even more "cheap" seats (most stupid). Round and round it goes in the ivory tower of the legacies. "The unions are too expensive". Waaaaaah! "Those customers are just too cheap". Waaaaah! And yet the highest paid employees are those that work at Southwest Airlines.

I remember laughing when Detroit blamed customers for being "hooked" on rebates, and they couldn't get away from them. Yet, Honda and Toyota at the time didn't offer a dime, or 1/3 the amount if they did.

The legacy model of the USA is broken and doesn't work. Period. No additional cost cutting is going to make a hills beans of difference looking back in 5 years. When you whine about being a "commodity" guess what? You are a commodity and you don't deserve $1 more than any other of the commodity whores selling on price and nothing but the price. People aren't willing to pay more because they get nothing for it. The US legacies have no one except themselves to blame.

I have yet to find a single company that tries to be all things to everyone in any industry that has a viable business model long term, in a open market.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: mauiman31
Posted 2010-02-09 11:57:03 and read 6973 times.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 21):
What about the blankets / pillows that are wrapped in plastic? I usually get them on long haul flights when they are placed on every seat. I assumed they have been cleaned.

Yep. Supposedly --the AA FC/Biz duvets and pillows used on 757- 763-777 long haul are changed out fresh every flight. And new are provided plastic wrapped. Economy blankets were often just folded between flights. Now I suppose they could be fooling us all sitting up front and stuffing the "used" duvets and pillows back in plastic. Mine have have always appeared fresh and clean . . . but who can be sure?????? Now, economy pax can at least be confident of a fresh blankie if they want to pony up $$.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-09 12:00:52 and read 6992 times.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 24):

Ding....ding....ding.....ding, WINNER!

Ding....ding...ding...ding...FAIL.

Foreign flag carriers like QF and LH wouldn't stand a chance in the U.S. mainland if cabotage were permitted - their CASM would cause them to bleed red ink on every flight, not to mention the beating they'd take at the hands of the U.S. majors.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: ken777
Posted 2010-02-09 12:17:31 and read 6969 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 13):
When the majority of customers shop for a ticket you better believe the first thing they click on is "cheapest fare."

And yet the customers who pay many times the "cheapest fare" still get the shaft.

You can't distinguish between the "Frills" and "No Frills" customers in a flying tube. Not possible. That means that anyone who pays hundreds more will still get the cheapest version of the product.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):
Ding....ding...ding...ding...FAIL.

So why not try it? QF goes onto New York after landing in LAX, regardless of the Pax count. Let them bring in more customers, even code share with AA and other oneworld customers. It might turn out to be pretty efficient. Maybe even toss in some ATI for oneworld and other alliances to make it more effective.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Raffik
Posted 2010-02-09 12:21:02 and read 6963 times.

What do you actually get when you fly with a flag carrier like AA. Just a seat and use of the toilets?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):
Foreign flag carriers like QF and LH

Wouldn't be too sure. Europe is made up of many many airlines and there is fierce competition on major
routes with both flag carriers and low cost operators yet you will still find a reasonable level of service on
flag carriers (okay, there are some exceptions).

You can still get complimentary bar service (alcoholic and non ) and hot meals on domestic UK services
in economy (before 9am services with BA), snacks at all times. If I am flying 4 1/2 hours, equivalent to
flying across the States, you would get a hot meal, blanket, pillow, beverages and IFE, all included in your
ticket price too.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Aeroflot001
Posted 2010-02-09 12:26:34 and read 6976 times.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 28):
What do you actually get when you fly with a flag carrier like AA. Just a seat and use of the toilets?

Hey! Hey! Dont forget about that complimentary non alcoholic beverage of your choice WITH ICE AND THE FULL CAN as well as your free copy of the American Way magazine which you are welcome to take with you at the end of every flight!

  

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Raffik
Posted 2010-02-09 12:37:21 and read 6913 times.

Quoting Aeroflot001 (Reply 29):
complimentary non alcoholic beverage

Oh yes, forgot about that! But so does Southwest!

I flew LHR-SFO with UA 2 years ago and asked the flight attendant for a glass of wine
and she said "that will be $5 please". I paid a lot of money for the flight and you didn't even
get a free glass of wine with your dinner and that was premium economy. They won't get
my custom again. No wonder there isn't any airline loyalty over there.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-02-09 12:45:04 and read 6896 times.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 28):
What do you actually get when you fly with a flag carrier like AA. Just a seat and use of the toilets?

A clean seat is extra.  

I sometimes think what passes as a "service enhancement" to a number of people here at A.net is if an airline added urinal cakes/mints to it's fleet, as it would garner the various "fans" posting ad nauseum at how this is going to make their respective fave airline stand out. I jest obviously, but not by much.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Tugger
Posted 2010-02-09 13:48:01 and read 6755 times.

So who here collects airline blankets? Who has the complete set? 
Now you can collect them without stealing them. (You know some of us will...)

Tugg

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Raffik
Posted 2010-02-09 13:50:30 and read 6715 times.

Ummm.. Lol I have a VS, BA and ME one. I am planning on returning them. Just thought I'd do them a favour and wash them for them!

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2010-02-09 15:30:24 and read 6566 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 13):
Exactly.. When the majority of customers shop for a ticket you better believe the first thing they click on is "cheapest fare."

Precisely correct, and exactly as it should be.......and so does the vast majority here on a.net, contrary to what is loudly implied otherwise.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 27):
And yet the customers who pay many times the "cheapest fare" still get the shaft.

You can't distinguish between the "Frills" and "No Frills" customers in a flying tube. Not possible. That means that anyone who pays hundreds more will still get the cheapest version of the product.

Except it's not the product they're paying for, it's the flexibility of a ticket which is substantially more. That flexibility is entirely their choice, and theirs alone, so I'm afraid they don't "get the shaft" at all. Seems to me you're implying they should get full flexibility, but at the cheapest fare (and which is exactly what I'm saying in my comment above)

Quoting Raffik (Reply 28):
What do you actually get when you fly with a flag carrier like AA. Just a seat and use of the toilets?

At the end of the day, what more is needed to get from A to B? An airline ticket is nothing more than transportation......if you want extra's pay for them, exactly the same as you would on a train or bus.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):
Foreign flag carriers like QF and LH wouldn't stand a chance in the U.S. mainland if cabotage were permitted - their CASM would cause them to bleed red ink on every flight, not to mention the beating they'd take at the hands of the U.S. majors.

You surely are joking, right??? Sorry to burst your bubble, but what day ever dawned where US 'majors' could take on the world's supreme airlines? They can't even successfully "take" on US LCC's!

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-09 15:54:04 and read 6504 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 34):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):
Foreign flag carriers like QF and LH wouldn't stand a chance in the U.S. mainland if cabotage were permitted - their CASM would cause them to bleed red ink on every flight, not to mention the beating they'd take at the hands of the U.S. majors.

You surely are joking, right???

Not at all. (And don't call me Shirley).

QF, LH or whomever flying LAX-PHX or some other shorthaul market will get SLAUGHTERED by their own extremely high CASM, coupled with competition from entrenched U.S. carriers with dominant market share.

Sorry if that troubles you.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2010-02-09 15:55:23 and read 6499 times.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 30):
No wonder there isn't any airline loyalty over there.

Yet the largest frequent flyer programs belong to US based airlines... go figure.

AA ORD

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-02-09 16:21:44 and read 6442 times.

You gotta love the media. I find it hilarious how both USAToday.com and CNN.com had this story on their front pages. Never mind the fact that AA was one of (if not the) last airlines in the USA to offer blankets and pillows for free. This wasn't mentioned. Never mind that the blankets and pillows are sold pre packaged and are yours TO KEEP. This wasn't mentioned (on USA Today). Never mind that most people don't even use blankets and pillows. This wasn't mentioned. Never mind that AA is losing billions of dollars. This wasn't mentioned (on CNN). Also, could the articles possibly have been written in a more negative tone? And again, I just think that the fact that both of the above sites ran this story on their front pages is laughable. Aren't there more important things going on in the world? Seriously, the fact that AA now charges $8 for pillows and blankets doesn't mean that the end of the world has come.

[Edited 2010-02-09 16:26:35]

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-02-09 16:25:48 and read 6439 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 36):
Yet the largest frequent flyer programs belong to US based airlines... go figure.

Exactly right. Airlines like UA and AA may charge for alcohol, but trying going to SQ, EY, or BA and getting a low mileage award to most places in the world or try getting free single way upgrades that comes with high tier elite status (if such things even exist on these airlines) from discount economy fares into business class.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: OzGlobal
Posted 2010-02-09 16:41:32 and read 6397 times.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 27):

So why not try it? QF goes onto New York after landing in LAX, regardless of the Pax count. Let them bring in more customers, even code share with AA and other oneworld customers. It might turn out to be pretty efficient. Maybe even toss in some ATI for oneworld and other alliances to make it more effective.

As a 'through' passenger on a RTW ticket, I have frequently taken QF LAX-JFK, and the best part is I've been upgraded to international F multiple times. Low loads and fantastic attention and service whilst crossing the US. Probably the best way it can be done today on that particular route....

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-09 17:06:07 and read 6345 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 37):
. Never mind that AA is losing billions of dollars. This wasn't mentioned (on CNN). Also, could the articles possibly have been written in a more negative tone? And again, I just think that the fact that both of the above sites ran this story on their front pages is laughable. Aren't there more important things going on in the world? Seriously, the fact that AA now charges $8 for pillows and blankets doesn't mean that the end of the world has come.

Not yet...but just watch in about 3 or 4 years, it'll come to...

Passengers wearing flipflops, shorts & T-Shirt = 0 (excess charge)

Passengers wearing a long sleeve shirt = $3 excess fee
Passengers wearing a trousers = $4 excess fee
Passengers wearing socks = $3 (per foot) excess fee
Passengers wearing shoes/sneakers = $3 (per foot) excess fee
Passengers wearing shoes with laces = $3 (per shoe) excess fee
Passengers wearing a tie = $1 (per foot) excess fee
Passengers wearing suit jacket/sports coat = $8 (per foot) excess fee
..and on and on and they'll still be losing money.

I wonder, those who agree with all this...where do any of you think it will end? Haven't you learned the new unwritten business paradigm..."If they can find a way to get it from you...they will" --- It being a few extra dollars.


But seriously, where do you expect this to end? Ideas?

Grant domestic cabotage to foreign carriers.....and watch American (carriers) inflight services be instantly (and miraculously) restored.


BN747

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-09 20:09:26 and read 6131 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Grant domestic cabotage to foreign carriers.....and watch American (carriers) inflight services be instantly (and miraculously) restored.

Keep dreaming. On both counts.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-02-09 20:12:29 and read 6130 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Grant domestic cabotage to foreign carriers.....and watch American (carriers) inflight services be instantly (and miraculously) restored.

I disagree. I think that if you grant domestic cabotage to foreign carriers, then the foreign carriers are going to succumb to the same overcapacity and LCC competition that the US legacy airliners have. The USA was the first market to experience this, but it now is already happening in other parts of the world, especially Europe. Look at the cutbacks that some of the "flag" carriers, such as BA, have recently instituted there. The same thing will happen in Asia and Australia soon...just watch. So if foreign carriers were allowed to fly US domestic routes, they'd face the same fare competition that everyone else does. What's going to happen is that they are going to wind up cutting back on service and going towards the a la carte model, instead of the US legacies adding service and freebies.

Foreign carries would have to pay the crew, maintain the equipment, lease gates, etc. just like everyone else and would overall face similar expenses. There's nothing magical about the way they operate now - the only exception is that they don't face the fierce cutthroat competition like US airlines do domestically, mainly due to absence of LCCs and relatively less capacity in their markets. Airlines like SQ, NH, EK, etc. can offer free meals where they currently fly, but if if Japan all of a sudden had 10 different airlines flying domestically, some of which have lower costs and are offering flights for around $50 each way, you'd be crazy to think that an airline like NH would be able to continue to offer their current levels of service while also drastically lowering its fares to match competitors.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2010-02-09 20:21:24 and read 6110 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 42):
The same thing will happen in Asia and Australia soon...just watch. So if foreign carriers were allowed to fly US domestic routes, they'd face the same fare competition that everyone else does. What's going to happen is that they are going to wind up cutting back on service and going towards the a la carte model, instead of the US legacies adding service and freebies.

Apparently it already has....


Another thread discussing - "Qantas To Drastically Cut First Class"
Qantas To Drastically Cut First Class (by AA7295 Feb 5 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-02-09 20:39:31 and read 6058 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):
Foreign flag carriers like QF and LH wouldn't stand a chance in the U.S. mainland if cabotage were permitted - their CASM would cause them to bleed red ink on every flight, not to mention the beating they'd take at the hands of the U.S. majors.

Sorry but I ain't buying it. You're one of the staunchest complainers about VX and AS legal machinations to stop them as being justified and "good". For someone so cocksure on US majors "eating their lunch" you don't seem to really believe it at all when it comes right down to it. Faux braggadocio aside, a massive infusion of foreign competition and capital would more than likely make it a better travel experience for all. But the US majors save for 1 or 2 wouldn't be around.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
..and on and on and they'll still be losing money.

It's usually these same passengers/posters that when you say, "sweet, then we need to start charging $2 a lb. for every lb. overweight you are" start squealing you're being ridiculous. But why should I, someone not overweight, pay for someone lugging 25, 30, or 50 lbs. extra like so many in the USA? I don't use the bathroom hardly ever on flights under 2 hours why should I pay for someone who uses it, and then the plane needs pumping? You can keep going on forever, nickeling customers to death, and yet still as you point out they will still be losing money.

Do people walk into McDonalds and expect $ .03 taken off their double lard flesh patty because they don't want the pickel, but want extra ketchup so that's $ .02 extra, while another asks not to be charges for plastic utensils? How flippin ridiculous has the airline model gotten in the USA, and yet..... they keep losing money. Go figure?

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: etstar
Posted 2010-02-09 20:46:44 and read 6036 times.

Air Canada started selling these a while back, and to be perfectly honest with you, it is the best in-flight purchase I have ever made. Actually, the only in-flight purchase other than Duty-Free. The inflatable pouch with the blanket remains in my carry-on at all times and have used it on a number of trips where it sure beats having to re-use a blanket that has been cozied up to by 200 people before me. Same goes for smelly pillows.

Granted, the blanket is not a true blanket, it's that tearable material, and you'd need to hang it outside of the pouch from time to time to let it breath off, but still is the best purchase. I think I only paid $4 but I'm sure someone here will correct me.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-09 21:23:40 and read 5965 times.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 44):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):
Foreign flag carriers like QF and LH wouldn't stand a chance in the U.S. mainland if cabotage were permitted - their CASM would cause them to bleed red ink on every flight, not to mention the beating they'd take at the hands of the U.S. majors.


Sorry but I ain't buying it.

Then I suggest you start looking at these carriers' respective financial statements, check out their CASM, adjust it upward for FAR shorter stage lengths (assuming intra-U.S. travel if cabotage were permitted) vs. the RASM figures existing carriers report for those markets. Maybe then it'll sink in.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 44):
You're one of the staunchest complainers about VX and AS legal machinations to stop them as being justified and "good". For someone so cocksure on US majors "eating their lunch" you don't seem to really believe it at all when it comes right down to it.

My issues with VX were they refused to report Form 41 data as required by the DOT for all other carriers and that their ownership structure, until the DOT recently required certain public changes from them, were shrouded in secrecy and seemed to be in violation of current U.S. law.

I have absolutely NO problem with them competing legally in the marketplace, nor would I with foreign carriers if cabotage were permitted. I'm just pointing out that all you "Gosh, everything would be SO much better if (insert foreign flag carrier here) were permitted to compete in the domestic U.S. market!" people are woefully misinformed at best, totally naive at worst.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2010-02-09 22:17:30 and read 5642 times.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 10):
My simple instruction to the team who book my flights is, "No Amercian carrier, anywhere, any time." And yes, I can manage transcontinental US on QF and most of my other visits to the US are O&D east or west coast, so hasn't been a logistical problem yet ( Of course I still have to deal with the whole TSA nasty, nonetheless).

You right on there   



Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 12):
I doubt very few people, if any, will stop flying an airline just because they make you pay for something you could bring onboard anyways.

I would.

Quoting contrails (Reply 14):
I can't help but wonder if the airlines aren't making a very serious mistake by instituting these nickel and dime charges, the same kind of charges that help to bring passenger rail service to its demise.

My thinking exactly.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
Go for it. Their CASM on these local routes will absolutely kill them while the much-leaner U.S. majors eat them alive

Not so sure about that. How many foreign airlines have filled for bankruptcy or chapter 11 compared to America carriers?

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 24):
The legacies keep repeating their same insane behavior, over and over and over again, and it never helps or works.

As you say they keep on going down the same path   

Quoting Raffik (Reply 28):
You can still get complimentary bar service (alcoholic and non ) and hot meals on domestic UK services
in economy (before 9am services with BA), snacks at all times. If I am flying 4 1/2 hours, equivalent to
flying across the States, you would get a hot meal, blanket, pillow, beverages and IFE, all included in your
ticket price too.

And generally far better service by attractive F/A's not old boilers   



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 34):
Precisely correct, and exactly as it should be.......and so does the vast majority here on a.net, contrary to what is loudly implied otherwise.

Sorry AirNZ, not me.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 34):
At the end of the day, what more is needed to get from A to B? An airline ticket is nothing more than transportation......if you want extra's pay for them, exactly the same as you would on a train or bus.

Ah, service, reliability, on time arrival and deperture, and also the sense that are not being asked to pay for every last little thing on earth, etc. Things you don't get on many low cost airlines in Australia or America for that matter.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 39):
As a 'through' passenger on a RTW ticket, I have frequently taken QF LAX-JFK, and the best part is I've been upgraded to international F multiple times. Low loads and fantastic attention and service whilst crossing the US. Probably the best way it can be done today on that particular route....

Me too, and its great !!

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-09 22:32:42 and read 5568 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
Go for it. Their CASM on these local routes will absolutely kill them while the much-leaner U.S. majors eat them alive

Not so sure about that. How many foreign airlines have filled for bankruptcy or chapter 11 compared to America carriers?

Um...you may not realize it, but you're making my point for me. Those U.S. carriers that have been through Chapter 11 have largely been able to shed costly things like defined-benefit pension plans, meaning they've got a cost advantage over carriers that still pay traditional defined-benefit plans. This means the CASM of the foreign flag carriers is going to be higher than those of the U.S. domestic carriers.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-09 22:45:37 and read 5514 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 46):

I have absolutely NO problem with them competing legally in the marketplace, nor would I with foreign carriers if cabotage were permitted. I'm just pointing out that all you "Gosh, everything would be SO much better if (insert foreign flag carrier here) were permitted to compete in the domestic U.S. market!" people are woefully misinformed at best, totally naive at worst.

Naivety is entrenched in the minds that lack the foresight to see what is coming especially when the hints and clues have been hitting you in the face like a winter wind.

US Carriers have slowly inched their way to Ryanair-type ops and they've seen you'll do nothing but groan n' gripe a little but in the end, you'll shut up and take it. I wouldn't be surprised that they have monthly checklist of 'What can we pinch off of them next?'..and periodically they select one and the other carriers - not to be left out..jump aboard. Why not, it's virtually free money. Yep, that 'standing only' airplane config. some drafted recently is ebbing closer with each new fee. And by the time it gets here..it'll be too late to mount a defensive...because everyone went so quietly into the night with nickel and dime fee thrown at them.

So you have the airlines picking your pockets on one hand and the useless TSA striping you of 'what little dignity you have left' in the name of keeping you safe. Pleasurable commercial flying is almost non-existant. I use to laugh and poke fun at 'military hops' on C-130S, C5s, C9s, etc...but their inflight service has risen by remaining exactly the same, because finally, US commercial service has sunk below them.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 44):

It's usually these same passengers/posters that when you say, "sweet, then we need to start charging $2 a lb. for every lb. overweight you are" start squealing you're being ridiculous.

  

Precisely, and they're the exact same ones who turn and ask (when it's light years too late) ... ''How the heck did this happen?''
.....because you selectively ignored history. And chose to do nothing about it when it was unfolding before your very eyes.



..and still NO ONE has answered this...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
But seriously, where do you expect this to end? Ideas?

BN747

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: MoltenRock
Posted 2010-02-09 23:18:08 and read 5365 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 49):
..and still NO ONE has answered this...

Of course they haven't because they can't. They, as do their corporate masters at the US legacies hope and pray to St. Crampedseat daily, that the industry saving, nearly extinct, business traveler that pays full fare for a Y seat (LOL! As if!) returns en masse purchasing a dozen or so seats on each flight affording the legacy to squeeze out a few million $$$ in profit and a 1% to 3% ROI, in their $1,400.00 ticket charge on the same flight they sold 2 weeks previously for $139.00. That is the end game they have. Stay alive until this happens..... some day...... hopefully soon...... I mean they just have to don't they? Outside of this, they got nothing, save excuses.

I've watched equally pathetic companies in other industries whine about how cheap China is, and they can't compete, so throw up their hands and say "it's impossible". And yet, that's not the case with a number of companies that reexamined their entire company from top to bottom to figure out how to add value for customers, while paying living wages to their employees, and earning nice ROI for their investors. I'm not saying it's "easy" but who said a global business is supposed to be "fun" or "convenient" for golf playing managers working an exhausting 30 hours a week?

When a company apologizes about its price as it justifies why it's "so high", frankly it doesn't deserve to stay in business.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: SASD209
Posted 2010-02-09 23:26:07 and read 5327 times.

Quoting JakeOrion (Thread starter):
Quote:
American Airlines quietly announced last week that it would eliminate free blankets in coach and sell an $8 packet that includes a pillow and blanket starting May 1.

Sounds good to me....I won't have to pay for a perk that I never use.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-09 23:37:30 and read 5250 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 49):

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 46):

I have absolutely NO problem with them competing legally in the marketplace, nor would I with foreign carriers if cabotage were permitted. I'm just pointing out that all you "Gosh, everything would be SO much better if (insert foreign flag carrier here) were permitted to compete in the domestic U.S. market!" people are woefully misinformed at best, totally naive at worst.

Naivety is entrenched in the minds that lack the foresight to see what is coming especially when the hints and clues have been hitting you in the face like a winter wind.

Ah yes, I see you've chosen the old "I don't have a substantive reply, so I'll resort to rhetoric disguised as wisdom," retort. A timeless classic.   


I'd much rather you provide me with substantive, fact-based arguments grounded in logic and reason to back up your assertion of the following:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Grant domestic cabotage to foreign carriers.....and watch American (carriers) inflight services be instantly (and miraculously) restored.

...if you can. Because so far, all the facts point to your argument being flawed in multiple areas.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-09 23:41:00 and read 5220 times.

Quoting SASD209 (Reply 51):
Sounds good to me....I won't have to pay for a perk that I never use.

That makes no sense, now if AA took 8 bucks off your current ticket prices for a service you don't use..you'd then have a case (and a deal) . But as is..they are now charging for an 'existing service'..not a new one.

BN747

[Edited 2010-02-09 23:44:01]

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: coolfish1103
Posted 2010-02-10 02:35:30 and read 4534 times.

If foreign carriers think it will cost them more to operate a domestic flight in the US, then they will opt to not offer the service. Why would they bother offering a downgraded service that may damage their image and position in the market? On top of that, I am almost certain that there are enough airlines in Asia that will beat the hell out of the American carriers because they have less labor issues and costs.

If Qantas is allowed to sell tickets on LAX-JFK v.v. individually, it will most likely only be add-on profits to their current flight anyways. If the price isn't worthy to fill the plane, might as well not sell it. Tickets should only be sold at the optimal price and simply opt the current model if it's not feasible. It's just giving the foreign carriers the option of selling "some" tickets.

The Chapter 7-11 concept in the U.S. is just hilarious. They should just let the airline go bankrupt if they cannot manage it correctly.

[Edited 2010-02-10 02:37:59]

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: faro
Posted 2010-02-10 02:52:33 and read 4466 times.

Quoting JakeOrion (Thread starter):
Not to say this is new, as Jetblue and US Airways are already charging, but one must wonder, when will it stop? Or better yet, why not include the price in the ticket already?

That is exactly the point: when will it stop? If people keep on accepting such practices, will we one day see pay toilets, inflight walking/standing fees, F/A prompting fees, child-annoyance compensation fees, etc?

Somewhere sometime this has got to stop. Just increase your ticket price and get on with things.

Faro

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: Raffik
Posted 2010-02-10 03:06:22 and read 4404 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 34):
At the end of the day, what more is needed to get from A to B? An airline ticket is nothing more than transportation......if you want extra's pay for them, exactly the same as you would on a train or bus

If I am flying with Southwest or Jetblue or any other budget airline, then I wouldn't expect anything apart from my seat.
However, my gripe is that American Airlines is America's flag carrier. American Airlines is NOT a budget airline but is
offering a budget service for a premium charge.

Continuously stripping inflight amenities from your passengers will not do you any good in the long run.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: AviationMaster
Posted 2010-02-10 04:25:12 and read 4094 times.

Quoting coolfish1103 (Reply 54):
The Chapter 7-11 concept in the U.S. is just hilarious. They should just let the airline go bankrupt if they cannot manage it correctly.

IMO legacy carriers in the US will never change unless something is done with the Chapter 7-11 concept. Thanks to Chapter 11, it seems as if they always have something to fall back on if all hell breaks loose.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 42):
the only exception is that they don't face the fierce cutthroat competition like US airlines do domestically, mainly due to absence of LCCs and relatively less capacity in their markets.

Absecne of LCCs in Europe? European (flag) carriers have been putting up with fierce competition from LCCs for years. The only difference in Europe is that those airlines unable to compete have actually exited the market or were bought up by competitiors leading to more consolidation in the market.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 56):
Continuously stripping inflight amenities from your passengers will not do you any good in the long run.

  

An American company's business model has always been about short term profits. This way of thinking is one of the factors that has lead to today's economic climate.

Quoting faro (Reply 55):
That is exactly the point: when will it stop? If people keep on accepting such practices, will we one day see pay toilets, inflight walking/standing fees, F/A prompting fees, child-annoyance compensation fees, etc?

Somewhere sometime this has got to stop. Just increase your ticket price and get on with things.

There will be no change unless a good enough substitute is offered.

American legacy cariers have an image problem. For years they have been trying to distance themselves from their LCC competitiors, while at the same time dropping their service levels below that of their competitors. The whole market has evolved to trying to be the cheapest and biggest, instead of striving to be the best.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-10 06:45:34 and read 3562 times.

Quoting faro (Reply 55):
Just increase your ticket price and get on with things.

Well gosh, why didn't we think of this sooner? All this time, the solution was right there in front of us all along - we just have to increase the ticket prices!

*sigh*

Once more, with feeling - consumer behavior has shown that when you raise fares X, you decrease demand by Y, rendering that increase useless. However, consumer behavior has also shown if you keep fares the same but add ancillary fees for now-'unbundled' services not all customers used like checked baggage, demand isn't affected.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2010-02-10 07:58:37 and read 3506 times.

Quoting faro (Reply 55):
Somewhere sometime this has got to stop

It will stop when passengers stop paying for them. Take a look at baggage fees and buy on board food.. Generates millions and millions BECAUSE passengers pay.

AA ORD

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2010-02-10 08:03:14 and read 3503 times.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 56):
If I am flying with Southwest or Jetblue or any other budget airline, then I wouldn't expect anything apart from my seat.
However, my gripe is that American Airlines is America's flag carrier. American Airlines is NOT a budget airline but is
offering a budget service for a premium charge.

And that is the problem with consumers. AA offers the same fare, and in some cases LOWER than WN where we compete, yet because of the name American Airlines, you expect more. Align service with fare and your expectations will be sorted out. If you are paying the same fare on AA as on WN, why (how) could you expect more?

AA ORD

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: mauiman31
Posted 2010-02-10 08:25:58 and read 3461 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 60):
And that is the problem with consumers. AA offers the same fare, and in some cases LOWER than WN where we compete, yet because of the name American Airlines, you expect more. Align service with fare and your expectations will be sorted out. If you are paying the same fare on AA as on WN, why (how) could you expect more?

AA ORD

Well said. Blanket fees, food fees, baggage fees, etc. don't really influence me. AA and WN are the carriers I fly the most. . . and yes fares are running the about the same on trips I have booked this past year. (WN used to be consistantly cheaper, but no more) Here's my usual criteria for choosing AA or WN (LLC) when I book a trip:

Pick WN if . . .
1. Fare is substantially lower (work)
2. Time or route is more convenient (non-stop vs. change)
3. I have an award ticket to use before it expires. (leisure or work)
4. Want to fly into a SW city airport - example (DAL instead of DFW)

Pick AA if . . .
1. Fare is competive with WN
2. Want an assigned seat and am weary of the WN seat battle (early check in, line up, etc. it's better now but still . . .)
3. Want to fly FC or Biz
5. Want to rack up some miles
6. Want to use an award ticket
7. When I don't mind or is convenient using an AA hub city.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-10 10:08:40 and read 3375 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 52):

Ah yes, I see you've chosen the old "I don't have a substantive reply, so I'll resort to rhetoric disguised as wisdom," retort. A timeless classic.


I'd much rather you provide me with substantive, fact-based arguments grounded in logic and reason to back up your assertion of the following:

Assertion? What assertion?

I did however make a suggestion. One you dislike for reasons other than your CASM vs RASM analysis and one blinding you from pausing to take an overall view of entire process and realize what others are saying above..

Quoting coolfish1103 (Reply 54):
Why would they bother offering a downgraded service that may damage their image and position in the market? On top of that, I am almost certain that there are enough airlines in Asia that will beat the hell out of the American carriers because they have less labor issues and costs.

Legacies are still trying to pass themselves off 'above' LCC's when in truth, their endless gradual and incremental cost-cutting measures have chipped away at everything that made them identifiably 'different'.

They have now arrived at being a LCC... domestically. Like I said, they are now subpar to the inflight services of a military flight hauling 'standby' soldiers. And the mindsets that keep 'accepting it' are mindsets unwilling to draw a line in the sand. It appears that some lack the stomach to 'look for an end...or question 'is there one?' So I ask again...where does it end? Because it's now gotten to the point tha the only differents between JetBlue and AA (or any legacy)... is the paint on the planes.

The gulf between a legacy and an LCC use to be about as wide as football field... now minus the paint on the planes, no one can really tell the difference.

Me personally..were I a legacy CEO, and I saw no one putting up a fuss over being 'nickeled and dime'd to death'....I'd keep it up as well. I'd take every cent you've got, if you continue to swallow my 'every excuse' for needing to do so. And that's where we stand. One needs only to remove the years of 'fond memories' and look at what we're left with...without bias, AA .. you are now WN, do us all a favor and just admit it..

'Where.. will it end? - finally an answer.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 59):
It will stop when passengers stop paying for them. Take a look at baggage fees and buy on board food.. Generates millions and millions BECAUSE passengers pay.

Yes, millions and you don't think for a minute it'll stop there ..or do you?

This ...

Quoting faro (Reply 55):
If people keep on accepting such practices, will we one day see pay toilets, inflight walking/standing fees, F/A prompting fees, child-annoyance compensation fees, etc?

1) And guess what..it'll generate millions too.

2) It is no longer a laughing matter or a joke. It is a reality that lies just around the corner. You're conditioning yourselves to accept the disappearance of service. Service you once paid for but are now being told that 'that cost has been shifted over to simply covering the cost of getting you from A to B.' Just as LCC's have been priding themselves on since inception.

Because, this latest action is not going to produce a 'miracle' financial reversal. It's like putting a Band-Aid on a leaky faucet.

Let the foreign carriers ply domestic routes, let them decide if their CASMs are worth it or not. It is all about free markets and competition..is it not?



BN747

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: UnitedFA07
Posted 2010-02-10 11:06:33 and read 3352 times.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 30):

How pathetic of you! Those who want free alcohol on every flight, all I have to say is LUSH! Not everyone in the world grows up with a beer/wine bottle in one hand and a rattle in the other. I know many of you will take offense to that comment, but oh well! lol   

I like how UA has it on its domestic flights, excluding First class. Economy has NO blankets and pillows, USUALLY, you might find one here and there. I say bring your own. When you drive somewhere on vacation/holiday do you not bring yours with you. When you take a train or bus elsewhere what do you use? Why is it the responsibility of the airline for something you're adult enough to do yourself. Yes they cut it out to save money to line their golden parachutes with the profit. I don't think that will be the last thing they raise the price on or cut out of a flight. Like many of you have said before, this isn't the Golden age of flying anymore. Because of the demand for getting everything the cheapest you can, something has to go up. Leave the free alcohol to foreign carriers, and paying for everything on US carriers. Its not going to change, I say deal with it. When you go out to a restaurant do you get free alcohol with every meal you buy? I don't think so, so why should flying be any different? The price you pay is for your seat, from A to B. Comparing American airlines to European, Asian, and Middle East is like apples to orange. They will never be equal or the same. Let there be differences, how boring it would be if they were all the same!
  

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-10 11:57:10 and read 3293 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 62):
Assertion? What assertion?

This one:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Grant domestic cabotage to foreign carriers.....and watch American (carriers) inflight services be instantly (and miraculously) restored.

Why do you have selective memory about what you've posted? And before you get cute saying this was merely a "suggestion," lets look at the definition of assertion:

assertion [uh-sur-shuhn]
n. a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason


You've firmly stated that granting domestic cabotage to foreign carriers would result in U.S. carriers restoring services they've eliminated for cost reasons or have surcharges for, and I'm asking you to provide me with some fact-based analysis that would support this wildly-illogical claim. Can you? Be specific and cite examples.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-10 12:28:01 and read 3241 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 64):

You've firmly stated that granting domestic cabotage to foreign carriers would result in U.S. carriers restoring services they've eliminated for cost reasons or have surcharges for, and I'm asking you to provide me with some fact-based analysis that would support this wildly-illogical claim. Can you? Be specific and cite examples.

Logic (backed by past performance) suggests that the Legacies would 'respond'? Will they respond as I suggested? You don't know. I'm not sure how they'd respond..but they certainly would react one way or another. If their histories can serve as a guide, it has shown when a carrier has been threatened by a riva...l it responded in kind with identical services/features. If QF were allowed LAX-JFK rights ( and used 2 or 3 of the other QF 744s that sit at LAX all day for additional freqs) .. it's almost assured that AA and UA would break ranks and drop the 'nickel and dime'ing' on all competing trips going head to head with QF. The legacies have always responded this way...I see no reason why they wouldn't in this case.

Now..can you bring yourself to admit the bunch (and actions) that you're defending are now no longer 'full service' (domestic) carriers and that they are now swimming upstream with the likes WN and JetBLUE? And can you come up with an answer of your own of 'where will it end?...or not?

BN747

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-10 12:57:20 and read 3195 times.

I can see the QF ads now...

''Are you on edge each and every time you fly with one of these little fellas (points to a 757 or 767) from Los Angeleez to the big Apple?''

''Constantly fooling about your pockets for change for this and change that?' [cue a guy pestering another passenger to 'make change' for a 20 dollar bill whie coins fall between the seat cushions]

''Why not hop aboard and relax on the Big Red Roo, a big 747/A380 leaving 4 times a day with full on board service, all for the same price of flying in the cramped little guys...!

''Our inflight service crew are 'serving you'..not walking around like that fella at the baseball stadium dispensing change from that contraption on his belly''

''Keep your pocket change..parking meters in New York City are a entire expense in their own right''

Next thing you know, SQ wants SIN-FRA-JFK to become a 'around the world service' linking up LAX or SFO as well.

I get the feeling, they'd be jam packed.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that AA/UA would sit back and say '' Just wait..their CASMs will catch up bury them''..

[Edited 2010-02-10 13:08:23]

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-10 13:39:06 and read 3148 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 65):
can you bring yourself to admit the bunch (and actions) that you're defending are now no longer 'full service' (domestic) carriers and that they are now swimming upstream with the likes WN and JetBLUE?

Sure, I've got no problem with the fact the U.S. majors are adapting to the marketplace. Customer preferences have shown repeatedly that the lowest price is ultimately what consumers demand, and 'unbundling' the product that was once 'all-inclusive' into a-la-carte pricing is not only turning out to be profitable, but something consumers in general accept.

Not saying they love it mind you, but they accept it in the name of getting the WN-type fares. G4 is a perfect example of how people are willing to accept less-than-full service with add-on fees in the name of a low fare.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 65):
And can you come up with an answer of your own of 'where will it end?

It will come to an end when the marketplace responds negatively to the change - and by that, I mean they begin voting elsewhere with their wallets. Until then, increasing ancillary revenue will continue to be a key initiative for just about every U.S. airline.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-10 13:53:48 and read 3117 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 67):
It will come to an end when the marketplace responds negatively to the change - and by that, I mean they begin voting elsewhere with their wallets.

And that's exactly where 'thinking-outside-the-box' cabotage rights come into play. Waiting for the marketplace to change is truly aged thinking...changing the game/marketplace is what's been happening since Crandell introduced 'AAdvantage'...''they'' need other options in order 'to vote with their wallets'..and not the current 'have their wallets boxed in' ...and having it slowly picked away. Which is occuring as we speak.

BN747

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: coolfish1103
Posted 2010-02-10 14:01:01 and read 3103 times.

I can see the following Asian airlines do decent/well in these services if domestic cabatoge is gone. However, we know it won't happen cause the employees of the airlines in America will protest. These Asian airlines won't be operating to secondary cities, so they could be under extreme competition. But, let's be honest. When companies like SQ and MH flies KUL-SIN v.v., BR, CI, CX flies TPE-HKG v.v., their fare can go dirt cheap (around USD 150 to 250) on these so-called international short hops and they still have services.

SQ - SIN-LAX-EWR-SIN and the reverse, all in Business.
SQ - SIN-LAX-JFK-FRA-SIN
MH - KUL-TPE-LAX-JFK-ARN-KUL

CI - TPE-SEA-IAH
CI - TPE-ANC-JFK
BR - TPE-ANC-EWR

CX - HKG-SFO-JFK
TG - BKK-LAX-JFK

OZ and KE will probably be able to tag a bunch of services given how successful they are in North America markets. JL and NH might even be able to invade in the markets beyond HNL, such as NRT-HNL-LAX v.v. On the HNL to mainland long haul segments, I am sure the legacy carriers will have a hard time competing.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2010-02-10 14:13:51 and read 3077 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 68):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 67):
It will come to an end when the marketplace responds negatively to the change - and by that, I mean they begin voting elsewhere with their wallets.

And that's exactly where 'thinking-outside-the-box' cabotage rights come into play.

I understand your point, but I don't know that you understand mine. Foreign carriers, for the most part, are subject to the same marketplace realities other airlines are. Part of those realities is if your costs exceed your revenue in a particular market, you'll either have to reduce costs to compete or abandon the market.

So regardless of what great service and amenities foreign carriers might offer in a domestic cabotage situation, they'll still be competing against carriers with far lower operating costs in the same market and will still be competing for customers looking only for the lowest fare.

It's a recipe for financial ruin for those foreign carriers.


Look, I don't like the "unbundling" aspect any more than you do. I'm an old-school airline veteran who likes the "one price, full amenities" environment. However, the domestic U.S. marketplace has shown consumers are only willing to reward the company who provides the lowest cost. The additional amenities that were once free, while nice, are not something most people are willing to pay for in their ticket price if they won't always make use of it.

So in actuality, the "thinking out of the box" mentality really DOES go with unbundling and a-la-carte pricing, as distasteful as that may be. It enables customers to get what they want for the price they want - or at least the price they're willing to pay - while not torpedoing demand like a general fare increase would.

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-10 14:14:45 and read 3071 times.

Quoting coolfish1103 (Reply 69):
But, let's be honest. When companies like SQ and MH flies KUL-SIN v.v., BR, CI, CX flies TPE-HKG v.v., their fare can go dirt cheap (around USD 150 to 250) on these so-called international short hops and they still have services.

  

Good point Coolfish, I've enjoyed those short haul services and because of what I see here in the US, I can't believe in the year 2010, those carriers are still providing such excellent svcs on 1 hour and 90 minute trips...in the face of fierce competition.

...and we can't. Or act as if we can't.

BN747

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-02-10 16:05:40 and read 2993 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 70):
Part of those realities is if your costs exceed your revenue in a particular market, you'll either have to reduce costs to compete or abandon the market.

Yes, and we've seen this scenario played out on numerous occasions when..

American took over LCC - Air Cal
USAir took LCC - PSA
Delta took over Western Airlines
Republic Airlines absorbed North Central and Southern
Texas Air swallowing LCC - New York Air, PeopleExpress, Frontier, Continental and Eastern.
..and on and on and on...

...the public didn't ask for this, free market practices allowed it.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 70):

So regardless of what great service and amenities foreign carriers might offer in a domestic cabotage situation, they'll still be competing against carriers with far lower operating costs in the same market and will still be competing for customers looking only for the lowest fare.

To a great extent yes, but not all..if that were true WN and JetBlue would be turning people away at the terminals leaving legacies to pick up the crumbs.

The legacies would have us believe this is what the customers 'wants'.
The customer and their wants are not a singular desire. There are many things that many different customers want. The legacies thru their actions above created the current conditions...not the customers.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 70):

It's a recipe for financial ruin for those foreign carriers.

Then open the gates and let those foreign carriers make those decisions, I think the American traveling public or the gov't are concerned with the financial concerns of these carriers. Said carriers would know the risk before entering and can always retreat when the going gets rough.

Besides, just who does it benefit if the foreign carriers find themse;ves tettering at the brink?
...US carriers and their overseas ops, that's who.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 70):
I'm an old-school airline veteran who likes the "one price, full amenities" environment. However, the domestic U.S. marketplace has shown consumers are only willing to reward the company who provides the lowest cost. The additional amenities that were once free, while nice, are not something most people are willing to pay for in their ticket price if they won't always make use of it.

To some degree as explained above, but not all customers fall into that bracket.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 70):
So in actuality, the "thinking out of the box" mentality really DOES go with unbundling and a-la-carte pricing, as distasteful as that may be. It enables customers to get what they want for the price they want - or at least the price they're willing to pay - while not torpedoing demand like a general fare increase would.

Here is were we disagree..unbundling or 'watering down' services is not thinking outside the box... it's cheapening the brand. No matter how you slice it and dice it.

As I said above we are in this predicament because the legacies believed their survival was reliant upon the destruction of LCC'S. They succeeded..they've become those very LCC's they sought to eliminate.

It has reached the point where the US traveling public needs to go 'Tea-Bagging' on US legacies for these ridiculous fees. If the public chooses to do nothing, they deserve to be nickel and dime'd to death by the very legacies who brought them to this point to begin with.


BN747

Topic: RE: Passengers Must Pay For Blankets On American
Username: viscount724
Posted 2010-02-10 19:11:07 and read 2885 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 3):
Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 1):
I would never use one that wasnt pre-packaged

Does that imply/guarantee that it was cleaned?

I never use blankets on flights, shorthaul or longhaul, whether they're in a sealed plastic bag or not. I've heard too many stories that blankets that look clean are often just refolded and put in a new plastic bag. I usually find aircraft cabins too warm anyway, especially on overnight flights. I think crews often turn the temperture up as it makes passengers doze off and be less liikelty to bother them.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 56):
However, my gripe is that American Airlines is America's flag carrier.

All U.S. carriers with international service are "flag carriers". AA has no special status in that respect.


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