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Topic: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SA7700
Posted 2010-01-28 03:25:20 and read 39814 times.

Please continue your discussion on this topic here.

Link to part 2: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 2)

Link to part 1: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut


Rgds

SA7700

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-01-28 04:02:50 and read 39769 times.

(Quoted posts refer to Part 2 of the thread)

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 245):
Here's your answer


Mandala499 knows I hold his views in the highest regard. However, I'm sure he'd be among the first to agree that it is not "the answer" and I'm sure he wouldn't be offended by further discussion.

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 250):
However it does not mean a witness did not see what they think they saw, does it?


It means that the witness statements as reported are no help one way or the other. In the past such reports have proved wrong as often as right so there's not much point in giving them any weight.

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 250):
This is exactly what I'm talking about.


I think you're still falling into the trap of treating each and every press report as gospel and not allowing for translations and interpretations by non experts.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 246):
2/-2 -3 LATEB 1D : IMO the most likely SID as it includes the initial en-route point.


Agreed it's tidier. I "borrowed" the idea of the BOD 1 SID straight from the discussion at PPRuNe, though I didn't see any information about how reliable it was.

As you note, the LATEB 1D turn to the northeast is started at 5000' rather than 4000' for the BOD 1 SID (by my understanding).

Good to see you back, Pihero.  

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-28 05:32:57 and read 39502 times.

The image in the flightglobal article is what I intended to express earlier concerning the take-off path and the locaiton of the wreckage relative to it. This article should clarify that for those who wondered, thanks.

The article doesn't really explain anything however. We're more or less in the same place: wrong turn, loss of communication, wreckage found.

Quote:
"We expect to have them some time today," Lebanese Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi told AFP.
"As of this morning we are evaluating the necessary means to retrieve the boxes," a military spokesman told AFP, requesting anonymity.

- http://www.france24.com/en/20100128-...ne-black-boxes-located-lebanon-sea

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-01-28 06:20:56 and read 39307 times.

I also thought about that path with the plane going back on its track, that explains the proximity of the crash site to the airport, which seemed strange at first considering it was at 9000ft and had flown for 5 minutes.

Now retrieving the boxes today, that would be unlikely IMHO, is the equipment already on site ? The article also states that the plane is not located, I was wondering about that. It must be roughly pinpointed but not precisely.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-28 06:34:09 and read 39230 times.



Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):

Now retrieving the boxes today, that would be unlikely IMHO, is the equipment already on site ?

I can't agree or disagree... what I know is that the operation is being organized, and for the minister to say this publicly he must be at least positive it will be retrieved today.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
It must be roughly pinpointed but not precisely.

Seems to be the case, but you never know considering we previously thought it had been located.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Trigged
Posted 2010-01-28 08:10:10 and read 38866 times.

Locating the boxes is a very important thing, but we do not know what is surrounding them. It is possible that the tail section is somewhat intact and that would make retrieval a little more difficult as you would either need to retrieve the tail section as a whole (meaning heavy lift equipment needed) or if the tail did break up into small pieces, it may be possible to retrieve them with just a simple ROV with moderate lifting equipment. Until they release some photos/video of the location of the boxes or indicate the status of the tail section, we won't know what equipment is needed to retrieve them. It is much too deep to send divers, so whatever means they need to retrieve them will be done remotely.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-01-28 09:46:57 and read 38566 times.

From the previous thread in the reply by BA

Quote:
Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 250):
However it does not mean a witness did not see what they think they saw, does it?

As has been said earlier, it's not confirmed yet that the plane exploded mid-air.

I'll go even farther than BA or David L - the history of witness statements about aircraft crashes shows them to be wrong the vast majority of the time - especially the witnesses quoted in the first press reports. People have a preconcieved idea of how a plane crash should look and that makes them think they saw things they did not.

If the first press reports have witnesses who say the plane came down in flames, and the plane came down in multiple pieces - you can pretty much bet that the plan came down intact with no fire.

When the US Airways plane ditched in the Hudson, people reported the plane in flames to the police, the reported the plane breaking apart before hitting the water, they reported the plane breaking apart when it hit the water.

If the witness statements are actually correct - it would be extremely unusual.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-01-28 09:52:41 and read 38528 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 2):

The image in the flightglobal article is what I intended to express earlier concerning the take-off path and the locaiton of the wreckage relative to it. This article should clarify that for those who wondered, thanks.

The flightglobal article graphic was extremely helpful. Wanted to add my thanks for the link posting.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-01-28 10:02:39 and read 38466 times.



Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Now retrieving the boxes today, that would be unlikely IMHO, is the equipment already on site ? The article also states that the plane is not located, I was wondering about that. It must be roughly pinpointed but not precisely.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 4):
for the minister to say this publicly he must be at least positive it will be retrieved today.



Quoting Trigged (Reply 5):
Locating the boxes is a very important thing, but we do not know what is surrounding them.

I believe the Minister is misunderstanding how the boxes work and how they are placed in the plane and how they have to be retrieved. His advisors are probably overly optimistic.

The only way I could expect the boxes to be retireved today is if they were separated from the wreckage by the crash. The pingers will tell you nothing about whether or not they are free, or still entangled.

By the relatively small amount of debris and bodies recovered so far, I would expect the wreckage to be largely intact. Which means they will have to cut into the damaged fuselage and pull the boxes out.

I would expect ROV capable of examining the wreckage to already be on-scene. They know the sea floor, the depths and what is needed to recover something in the area. We don't.

Also, after receiving pinger signals, when the ROV actually gets down on the sea floor, there are often problems finding the exact location if both boxes are pinging - and they are separated. They will both be on the same frequency, and if separated, the signals will conflict, making it harder to find the actual boxes.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-01-28 10:07:02 and read 38448 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 7):
The flightglobal article graphic was extremely helpful

 checkmark  It corroborates the information borrowed from PPRuNe earlier and the likely SID proposed by Pihero.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-01-28 10:11:36 and read 38409 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 2):
The image in the flightglobal article is what I intended to express earlier concerning the take-off path and the locaiton of the wreckage relative to it. This article should clarify that for those who wondered, thanks.




And how. Was very perplexed why the plane was only 11 miles South of airport after 9 minutes. If he was at 9000 feet already he would have cleared the mountains if he kept going East by North East, but he could have not entered Syrian airspace from that area.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-01-28 10:56:54 and read 38200 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 7):
The flightglobal article graphic was extremely helpful. Wanted to add my thanks for the link posting.

 checkmark 
Thanks due to RubberJungle on the previous thread.
here is the link again here
The diagram, IMO, only errs on two accounts :
1/- They wouldn't have been allowed a turn toward CAK on the tower frequency. It means that they've in all probability passed 2000 ft, at which point, they would have been transferred to the dep frequency, some 4 Nm on the extended centerline, not on an immediate turn as portrayed.
2/- As I said earlier, contact was lost when the 738 was close to impact...unless they suffered a catastrophic electrical failure at altitude, signs of which I haven't found on any report. I couldn't find the origin of that 9000ft altitude, either : pribably another red herring as 9000 ft would have cleared them from the inbound traffic ti RWY 16, thus negating the need of the turn to 270°.
If I get my photobucket membership back, I could post the diagrams.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SXI899
Posted 2010-01-28 11:20:07 and read 38094 times.

The routing initially eastbound via LATEB would explain why I haven't seen the Ethiopian flight in CFMU, as it never enters the Eurocontrol area.

I find the information published by Flightglobal to be interesting. Reversing the climbing right turn into a climbing left turn are near ideal conditions to induce vertigo, and that coupled with perhaps a lightning strike at an inopportune moment are potentially links in a chain of events that could have led to this accident.

I agree with Pihero that it's odd that ATC found it necessary to order a heading change to maintain separation with inbound traffic for RWY16. The turn towards the CAK VOR should commence at 5000', and with the initial approach fix for the ILS RWY16 at an altitude of 2000', the vertical separation should be at least 3000' (and likely to be more) by the time the flight would be in the vicinity of the approach path.

And as for the witness reports, during a course I followed on Air Accident Investigation, our class was split into two groups. One group watched a video of a light aircraft crash on approach, while the other group was out of the room. Once we'd seen the video, the second group returned to 'interview' the eyewitnesses. Even though those of us who watched the video knew we were about to view an accident and be interviewed about it, the difference in the stories that the different 'eyewitnesses' reported was surprising. Investigator generally filter the information that witnesses report for useful details, while the media are usually after the jucier, more newsworthy accounts. Thats why I always take eyewitness account with a very large grain of salt!!

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-28 11:33:32 and read 38080 times.

That Flightglobal article provides some excellent details.

Here it is again for those who haven't read it:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...intain-correct-heading-before.html

This is the most common departure from BEY and is quite enjoyable from a passenger perspective when sitting on the right side of the plane.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 8):
I believe the Minister is misunderstanding how the boxes work and how they are placed in the plane and how they have to be retrieved. His advisors are probably overly optimistic.

The only way I could expect the boxes to be retireved today is if they were separated from the wreckage by the crash. The pingers will tell you nothing about whether or not they are free, or still entangled.

From what I read, they said it depends on whether the black box is separated from the fuselage or if it is still intact, as you mentioned.

A vessel named Ocean Alert, which is capable of salvaging objects up to 2,000 meters deep, is on the scene, so if the black box is separated, then perhaps it can be retrieved quickly. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Ocean Alert is equipped to access objects 2000 meters (6,561 feet) below sea level.

Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi has earlier said: "We expect to have them sometime today."

He told AFP that the body of the Boeing 737-800 had yet to be located four days after the tragedy.

Aridi said that while search teams had picked up the flight data recorder signals, it remained unclear whether the boxes were still inside the body of the Boeing 737-800, which plunged into the Mediterranean on Monday with 90 people on board.

"If the black boxes are not in the body of the plane, it is easier to access them," Aridi said. "But if they are still inside the plane, this will necessitate another procedure completely."

The boxes were located in a seafloor trench and their recovery may take time, a defense ministry official told AFP.


http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Ne...m&CBB85C3D1EEA5EA8C22576B9001F4EB2

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
And how. Was very perplexed why the plane was only 11 miles South of airport after 9 minutes. If he was at 9000 feet already he would have cleared the mountains if he kept going East by North East, but he could have not entered Syrian airspace from that area.

Lebanon's mountains go up to 10,000 feet. The highest mountain in Lebanon is Qornet as-Sawda at an elevation of 10,130 feet.

Most of the time I've flown from BEY, we crossed over the mountains at waypoint CAK, which is in Chekka, just south of Lebanon's 2nd largest city, Tripoli. This path will take you immediately over the Qadisha Valley and the highest mountains in Lebanon, including the vicinity of Qornet as-Sawda.

Here's a photo I took over the Bekaa Valley just after clearing the mountains:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nabil Ahmad Sadi



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
If I get my photobucket membership back, I could post the diagrams.

ImageShack is great for uploading images and you don't have to register if you don't want to.

http://www.imageshack.us

Thanks for your excellent insight by the way! This is what makes these discussions interesting and valuable.

Here are the newest OLBA charts I've found online:
http://people.inf.elte.hu/pvoksan/jepp/olba.pdf

[Edited 2010-01-28 11:37:45]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Spacecadet
Posted 2010-01-28 13:14:41 and read 37035 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 6):
If the witness statements are actually correct - it would be extremely unusual.

Well, this is going a little further than I think any investigator would go.

Individual witness statements are often wrong. However, investigators often interview hundreds of witnesses and then put the accounts together to get a complete picture of key details. And they do give weight to details that were seen by the majority of witnesses. This is clear if you read either the TWA800 or AA5587 accident reports, which even give percentages of witnesses who saw various things. And the witness accounts were important in guiding the early days of those investigations.

Quoting SXI899 (Reply 12):
Investigator generally filter the information that witnesses report for useful details, while the media are usually after the jucier, more newsworthy accounts.

This is correct. And it's why there may be a perception around here that witness accounts are "almost never" accurate. The fact is they often are accurate, but the media doesn't necessarily pick the correct accounts to quote if they don't involve engines or other parts of the plane exploding before hitting the ground. Having a witness quoted saying "nope, everything looked normal until they crashed" does not make for compelling television, or even reading.

Eyewitness accounts can be correct or not, but it takes interviewing all of them and finding the details they agree on, or at least that the majority saw, to start to develop a clear picture of what happened.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Giopan1975
Posted 2010-01-28 14:10:25 and read 36485 times.

Nice to read Pihero's contribution.

A question: At what point is autopilot switched on? I had the (incorrect) idea that autopilot (or some parts of autopilot) are switched on just moments after leaving the ground. If that would be true, then disorientation in the dark would be impossible?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-01-28 14:53:50 and read 36101 times.



Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 15):
At what point is autopilot switched on? I had the (incorrect) idea that autopilot (or some parts of autopilot) are switched on just moments after leaving the ground. If that would be true, then disorientation in the dark would be impossible?

One additional item for you to consider. The AP will shut off if the plane in is rough conditions. This prevents the AP from inputting severe changes which could upset the aircraft. Also the AP is often not used in rough conditions because the pilots can fly much smoother than the AP.

We really do not know how rough the actual weather was for the aircraft.

We have reports of severe thunderstorms and ATC trying to help the crew avoid the worst cells. Then we have reports that the aircraft was in visual of the tower throughout the flight. We have people who says they saw the aircraft several thousand feet up in the air and two miles out to sea in flames, and others who say they saw it break apart into large pieces.

If the weather was bad enough to make spatial disorientation a probability, then it would have been too bad for people to see the aircraft at those distances.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-01-28 16:28:09 and read 35424 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 16):
Then we have reports that the aircraft was in visual of the tower throughout the flight.

If that sentence refers to my -repeated- "line of sight" claim, it is of course related to electronic conditions, meaning no solid obstacle between the plane and the SSR antenna on the airport...
(just in case...)

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-01-28 17:59:57 and read 34943 times.

AFP is reporting that an ET 737 had to make an emergency landing at N'Djamena, Tchad. Flight was from DKR to ADD via Bamako, Mali. As described in the article, the 737 left DKR circled around N'Djamena for over an hour to get rid of its fuel and landed. Problem is described as being an electrical problem as well as a radar problem.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5gu-hT5XUqwuRmCh90Q12tbSsaQUQ

And here is a sensationalized Arabic media version of the same story:
http://mediarabe.info/spip.php?breve2349
Title reads (my translation): "Catastrophe in the sky averted? An Ethiopian Boeing performs an emergency landing at N'Djamena due to technical problem"

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Dragon6172
Posted 2010-01-28 18:09:17 and read 34895 times.

It would seem from the rough flight track on the Flightglobal link, that a turn to 270 could have been misunderstood as a left 270 degree turn. Bad weather and hand flying, could be a CFIT.

Overly simplistic explanation. Hopefully they recover the recorders soon.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: AF022
Posted 2010-01-28 18:38:06 and read 34715 times.



Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 18):
Flight was from DKR to ADD via Bamako, Mali. As described in the article, the 737 left DKR circled around N'Djamena for over an hour to get rid of its fuel and landed. Problem is described as being an electrical problem as well as a radar problem.

Highly unlikely. ET uses 757 or 763 to BKO, almost never 737.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-01-28 18:50:16 and read 34648 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 6):
If the witness statements are actually correct - it would be extremely unusual.



You may think so.... but the statements below are absolutly true.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 14):
Individual witness statements are often wrong. However, investigators often interview hundreds of witnesses and then put the accounts together to get a complete picture of key details. And they do give weight to details that were seen by the majority of witnesses.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 14):
Eyewitness accounts can be correct or not, but it takes interviewing all of them and finding the details they agree on, or at least that the majority saw, to start to develop a clear picture of what happened.




Without witnesses cases are much harder to solve. Period.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Rcair1
Posted 2010-01-28 20:00:54 and read 34316 times.



Quoting Trigged (Reply 5):
possible that the tail section is somewhat intact and that would make retrieval a little more difficult

Do we have any idea about the percentage of the plane that has been recovered or if any major portions, or a large debris field has been located? Trying to get an idea of how much breakup.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-28 20:19:40 and read 34217 times.



Quoting Rcair1 (Reply 25):
Do we have any idea about the percentage of the plane that has been recovered or if any major portions, or a large debris field has been located? Trying to get an idea of how much breakup.

The debris field immediately after the crash was limited to an area immediately off the coast of the village of Naameh, south of the airport. Lebanese Navy vessels and search and rescue helicopters scrambled to the scene immediately after it was reported that the plane went missing. A couple UNIFIL vessels arrived at the scene shortly thereafter. As the days progressed, debris began showing up as far north as a Ramlet el Baida, a beach in Beirut just north of the airport and as far south as the town of Jiyeh. Authorities then expanded the debris field area to the Port of Beirut (further north) and to the town of Damour (further south). The debris field grew significantly as a result of the strong currents in the area.

As for the percentage of the plane recovered, only small pieces have been recovered, so not much. I believe the largest pieces recovered have been a lavatory wall and a part of the left winglet. Check the previous two threads for photos.

It is believed that significant portions of the fuselage and wing are at the bottom of the sea. These have yet to be salvaged.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2010-01-28 21:59:23 and read 33744 times.

USS Ramage located pingers 6.2 miles from the airport.

http://www.examiner.com/x-18134-Airl...hiopian-Airlines-black-boxes-found

USS Grapple is apparently on the way to help with recovery.

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2...-to-ethiopian-airlines-crash-site/

USS Grapple:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Grapple_(T-ARS-53)

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-28 23:23:39 and read 33466 times.



Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 27):
USS Grapple:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Grapple_(T-ARS-53)

Sounds like this baby's gonna get the work done.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2010-01-29 00:46:45 and read 32950 times.



Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 18):
AFP is reporting that an ET 737 had to make an emergency landing at N'Djamena, Tchad. Flight was from DKR to ADD via Bamako, Mali. As described in the article, the 737 left DKR circled around N'Djamena for over an hour to get rid of its fuel and landed. Problem is described as being an electrical problem as well as a radar problem.

I guess we must be ready to have this kind of "news" in the medias during a few days after each and every minor incident involving ET or a B737 ...  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2010-01-29 01:57:33 and read 32726 times.

From the previous topic (#2)

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 250):
However it does not mean a witness did not see what they think they saw, does it?

Witnesses recall on what they think they saw. Let's talk about another crash in the sea with so-called "witness reports"... Adam Air 574... crashed in the middle of the sea, in a location where there would be ABSOLUTELY NO WITNESSES (especially with the storm in the sea at the time). What did the witnesses CLAIM?
1. We saw a flash and a bang (people from a coastal village).
2. We heard a sonic boom, the plane must have dived to its death (fishermen, claiming they heard this whilst being chased by the storm, as they were entering the harbour, >100NM away from the crash site).
3. We saw an orange plane (Adam Air was orange) circling around the mountains at low altitude here, looks like it was lost or something! (Whilst Adam Air was orange, the plane that crashed was still in all white except the airline titles, and, crashed nowhere near where they claimed they saw the plane).
And last but not least...
4. We saw a flash as the plane took off... This one, was immediately dismissed for obvious reasons.

In another case 3 months later, GA200 (a 734 that overran JOG/WARJ):
1. We saw the engines pluming smoke behind it as it came in.
2. We saw the engines on fire as it came in.
3. We heard an explosion as the plane came in to land.

Yet, the FDR and CVR revealed no aircraft malfunction prior to the aircraft overrunning.

Careful with witnesses! They are important, but they are also a nuisance! Filter them all carefully, and you may find, there are no witnesses in the end !

Quoting Pihero (Reply 246):
Hello, everyone !

FINALLY HE'S HERE !  biggrin  [/quote]

And from this thread:

Quoting David L (Reply 1):
Mandala499 knows I hold his views in the highest regard. However, I'm sure he'd be among the first to agree that it is not "the answer" and I'm sure he wouldn't be offended by further discussion.

Damn right. What I wrote regarding the winglet, was just an initial opinion. The clues are there, but then, there is the photo of the otherside of the winglet, which shows a skin fracture through the span of it. There's still more to this than meets the eye I am sure. I still hold my opinion that it appears to have been a frontal impact, BUT, I need more information. Yuhuuu, Pihero... U got something for me my friend? *J/K*

OK, onto some tech sleuthing (borrowing Pihero's term here).

The Flight Path:
As to the SID they filed for, I don't think it matters, BOD1 would still call for a 240 until 4000 prior to making the turn into 060 inbound BOD, then onto CAK. LATEB1D, call for 220 until 5000, then 030 inbound CAK.

MSA from NE to SW of the airport clockwise is 11,000... and the peaks within the charts (ILS03), 6612' and 6099', and looking at the contours, it forms a narrow wall running 020-200 orientation >5000' in all, and >6000 in some. Given the surface wind was 060 and mild, but 030v090, I would like to know the FL050 and FL100 wind charts on that day. That could describe roughly the conditions they would meet above 3000'. And then, why are we seeing 310/08kt all the time in these diagrams?

As for the vectoring... What a vectoring disaster! No, I am not blaming the ATC... but, this is why one needs to be on the ball in the cockpit or in front of the radar screen. One thing that ATC need to plan ahead with is, "would these instructions result in confusion? If so, how to avert confusion". It's just one of those things.

It does appear though, that the crew, may have been confused/disoriented, etc, and took a 270-to-the-left instead of turn-left-heading-270. Now, if this means they were heading 090, towards the mountains, where was the wind coming from? Again, how rough would/could it be that night where they were? Man, this place, does remind me of PDG/WIMG...

The Debris
Agree with Pihero, still not a lot for us to use. The toilet/galley bulkhead (sink and toilettries compartment?), indicate the fuselage (or the area where the piece was located) had broken up on impact, or had broken off prior to impact. This makes bomb-on-board even less likely than the previous "remote chance".

As to the winglet, Pihero, left rolling moment to the left on impact? But generally frontal?

One thing, this plane is unlikely to have belly-flopped, nor did it head flopped (flipped over then flopped)... we'd be seeing more vertical crushing (linear momentum) scars on the pieces, and more ceiling pieces found with its telltale signs (and the winglet cut would have been different).

Dark/Light/Blind

Quote:
In preparation for the flight in - or in the vicinity of - some active lightnings, the lights could have been turned on to reduce blindness.

Well, on the other hand, they could have ended up in a darkened cockpit (I know some who ended up regretting mistakenly being in a darkened cockpit flying into active lightning area)... but then, even in a bright cockpit, they could have still been blinded, especially if they were both looking outside (mountains anyone? Altvent itself ending up in a self-induced unusual attitude. When too rough or there's something it doesn't like, A/P will d/c itself.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 16):
We really do not know how rough the actual weather was for the aircraft.

See above for need of windcharts...

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 16):
If the weather was bad enough to make spatial disorientation a probability, then it would have been too bad for people to see the aircraft at those distances.

LOL! Let's not forget the Disoriented witnesses too!

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2010-01-29 02:09:06 and read 32672 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 30):
Witnesses recall on what they think they saw. Let's talk about another crash in the sea with so-called "witness reports"... Adam Air 574... crashed in the middle of the sea, in a location where there would be ABSOLUTELY NO WITNESSES (especially with the storm in the sea at the time). What did the witnesses CLAIM?
1. We saw a flash and a bang (people from a coastal village).
2. We heard a sonic boom, the plane must have dived to its death (fishermen, claiming they heard this whilst being chased by the storm, as they were entering the harbour, >100NM away from the crash site).
3. We saw an orange plane (Adam Air was orange) circling around the mountains at low altitude here, looks like it was lost or something! (Whilst Adam Air was orange, the plane that crashed was still in all white except the airline titles, and, crashed nowhere near where they claimed they saw the plane).
And last but not least...
4. We saw a flash as the plane took off... This one, was immediately dismissed for obvious reasons.

In another case 3 months later, GA200 (a 734 that overran JOG/WARJ):
1. We saw the engines pluming smoke behind it as it came in.
2. We saw the engines on fire as it came in.
3. We heard an explosion as the plane came in to land.

Yet, the FDR and CVR revealed no aircraft malfunction prior to the aircraft overrunning.

Careful with witnesses! They are important, but they are also a nuisance! Filter them all carefully, and you may find, there are no witnesses in the end !

I would add to this the dozens of witnesses of the Concorde crash at CDG in July 2000 who certified that the left engines were on fire when the supersonic took off ... And we know by now that it was never the case.
Moreover among these witnesses, many of them were aviation professionals including some pilots...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Giopan1975
Posted 2010-01-29 02:35:15 and read 32487 times.

The airport video says one thing almost for sure: there was lightning and thus thunderstorm cells very close to the airport and in the flightpath of departures.

And as Pihero wrote, weather could have been average winter weather with thunderstorm cells for the area at a first look (some other pilot could have played safer), but what about lightning?

Is it true that pilots were not answering to ATC calls for 5 minutes before plane disapeared from airport radar?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-29 03:31:52 and read 32189 times.



Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 32):
The airport video says one thing almost for sure: there was lightning and thus thunderstorm cells very close to the airport and in the flightpath of departures.



Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 32):
but what about lightning?

The accuweather.com article posted in Part2 of the thread confirms the lightening.

Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 32):
Is it true that pilots were not answering to ATC calls for 5 minutes before plane disapeared from airport radar?

There was no actual duration announced. All we know is that after being told to turn right and acknowledging, the pilot turned left and the aircraft went off the radar.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-01-29 04:16:46 and read 32032 times.



Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 15):
At what point is autopilot switched on? I had the (incorrect) idea that autopilot (or some parts of autopilot) are switched on just moments after leaving the ground

Pihero is the one to answer that with authority but I'm pretty sure it depends on the airline, the crew and the circumstances. Autopilots are certainly not always engaged as early as that.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 30):
Careful with witnesses! They are important, but they are also a nuisance! Filter them all carefully, and you may find, there are no witnesses in the end !

Exactly. What Spacecadet wrote illustrates that it's next to useless for us here to compare a few media reports to witness accounts filtered by experts. If the witness are correct, there should be some corroborating evidence and that's what the rest of us need to be convinced.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 30):
I still hold my opinion that it appears to have been a frontal impact

And, of course, I'm in no position to disagree but, as you say, it might be worth trying to eke out some more detail.

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 19):
a turn to 270 could have been misunderstood as a left 270 degree turn.

Good point. In theory, the instruction should be something like "turn left heading 270" but it was an opportunity for some ambiguity.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 31):
dozens of witnesses of the Concorde crash at CDG in July 2000 who certified that the left engines were on fire when the supersonic took off ... And we know by now that it was never the case.

Correct although, in their defence, we can see why they might have thought that - there were significant flames in that general area. It does show how witnesses often "see" what they expect to see.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-01-29 04:31:07 and read 31984 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 33):
All we know is that after being told to turn right and acknowledging, the pilot turned left and the aircraft went off the radar.

I'm still not clear on that. The media is reporting that they were told to turn but they "turned the other way". I haven't read that they acknowledged the right turn but I may have missed it.

I still think the reports are open to being interpreted as meaning that they continued to turn left when they were asked to turn right. "But they turned the other way" implies that they initiated a turn in the wrong direction, which would mean a slightly different scenario, I would have thought.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-29 04:56:18 and read 31881 times.

How fast is the radar antenna at the airport turning? I see some large Ericsson radar antenna from my window (they are on top of an Ericsson testing facility). Even the very large ones seems to rotate once every 10 seconds. Assuming thigngs were falling from 9000 m to the sea at about 500 m/s it would then take some 30 seconds. Is this shorter than one rotation?

I also wonder why the pilot and co-pilots name are not given by the airline. Is that typical for african airlines?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-29 05:01:31 and read 31857 times.

Correction. The time falling should be about 20 seconds.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Trigged
Posted 2010-01-29 05:39:09 and read 31716 times.



Quoting Rcair1 (Reply 25):
Do we have any idea about the percentage of the plane that has been recovered or if any major portions, or a large debris field has been located? Trying to get an idea of how much breakup.

That is the unknown. If the USNS Grapple is moving in, that suggests to me that the tail of the aircraft is in a large enough piece to preclude the use of the ROV's on the scene. I am not sure what is there already, but the Grapple is capable of lifting large pieces. Cutting the FDR/CVR from the wreckage at depth is not really an option, so lifting the entire section is really the only alternative. I would also assume that the Grapple would recover some of the largest pieces including wings, fuselage, etc that it can find.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-01-29 06:16:52 and read 31613 times.



Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 32):
The airport video

There is no airport video.

The video on the links in the other threads was taken from an off-airport location and is apparently a private security camera which happens to have a brief glimpse of aircraft on takeoff of the airport.

Quite simply you cannot get that view - right to left takeoff of an aircraft - from any location on the BEY airport property.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-01-29 07:13:39 and read 31434 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 36):
How fast is the radar antenna at the airport turning? I see some large Ericsson radar antenna from my window (they are on top of an Ericsson testing facility). Even the very large ones seems to rotate once every 10 seconds. Assuming thigngs were falling from 9000 m to the sea at about 500 m/s it would then take some 30 seconds. Is this shorter than one rotation?

I don't know about the radar, but 10s seems more right than 30s.

However 500m/s vertical speed for the plane is impossible, that's more than Mach 1 vertically. It would disintegrate quickly (and then slow down).

But as already pointed out, we don't know what is the type of the radar used. If it's a secondary radar, then it only shows what the transponder tells.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Affirmative
Posted 2010-01-29 08:16:25 and read 31322 times.

Just by chance I came over a piece of information that could be useful to the investigation of this accident.

Quote from my favorite blogger: http://flightlevel390.blogspot.com/

"The forward windscreens are alive with static discharge looking like tiny bolts of lightning. We have temporarily lost communication with ATC as the static builds on the antennas."

He describes how he's passing between two CBs with quite a lot of thunderstorm activity and moderate turbulence. Similar to the conditions that the ET-flight was traveling through albeit further up..

Could it be that the reason for ATC not getting a call was because comm was lost because of static discharge?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-01-29 09:08:05 and read 31129 times.



Quoting Affirmative (Reply 38):
Could it be that the reason for ATC not getting a call was because comm was lost because of static discharge?

I don't know how plausible it is but it wouldn't explain the "strange" turn or the descent into the sea. According to the media reports, the first call that went unacknowledged was when the heading had swung round to 140o and the aircraft "disappeared from radar shortly afterwards". Without further information, that suggests to me that something may already have gone wrong.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-29 09:37:53 and read 31213 times.

Lebanese Civil Defense teams found additional debris today. Notice how one of the pieces shows the last two letters of the aircraft's registration, ET-ANB. Looks like the nose gear door.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cTR9kY8izfXP/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08G37Bk8CR9bW/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08lGcYM3J0cJo/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03YN49M1frh01/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05UO3ia91w0cs/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Ml9we1h47WC/680x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bH57cLbVmgs3/1000x.jpg

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-29 10:16:48 and read 30948 times.



Quoting BA (Reply 40):
Looks like the nose gear door.

Intrieguing photos. The text seen in the first picture is probably enough specific to tell from where on the aircraft this piece came.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-29 10:21:02 and read 30971 times.

From Feburary 1, Ethiopian Airlines is retiring the ET 408/ET 409 flight number pair for its Addis Ababa to Beirut flight and replacing it with ET 406/ET 407.

http://airlineroute.net/2010/01/29/et-bey-fltnbrchg/

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2010-01-29 10:31:08 and read 30928 times.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 26):
Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 18):
AFP is reporting that an ET 737 had to make an emergency landing at N'Djamena, Tchad. Flight was from DKR to ADD via Bamako, Mali. As described in the article, the 737 left DKR circled around N'Djamena for over an hour to get rid of its fuel and landed. Problem is described as being an electrical problem as well as a radar problem.


I guess we must be ready to have this kind of "news" in the medias during a few days after each and every minor incident involving ET or a B737 ...

But this was a 757, according to Aviation Herald; http://avherald.com/h?article=4267a539&opt=0

Quoting Aesma (Reply 37):
However 500m/s vertical speed for the plane is impossible, that's more than Mach 1 vertically. It would disintegrate quickly (and then slow down).

Unless the radar was actually recording its descent/disintegration; we don't know yet that it didn't break up in mid air?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: FCA767
Posted 2010-01-29 11:11:52 and read 30774 times.



Quoting BA (Reply 42):
From Feburary 1, Ethiopian Airlines is retiring the ET 408/ET 409 flight number pair for its Addis Ababa to Beirut flight and replacing it with ET 406/ET 407

Why do airlines do this? I think the future passengers will realise that it still happened in Beirut regardless of flight number...It's like "let's fool them that because it's a new flight number that they will feel safer" I'm mean this within any country destination not just beirut...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA84
Posted 2010-01-29 11:20:50 and read 30682 times.



Quoting FCA767 (Reply 44):
Why do airlines do this?

Because people are superstitious, especially in third world countries.

BA84

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-29 12:42:53 and read 30526 times.

I feel the silence about the name of the pilot and co-pilot a little strange. The airline states that the pilot was experienced and had flown for them during 20 years - a lot as co-pilot. Not a word about the co-pilot - was he very green?

The reason I am asking about the radar at Beirut is as follows. I once had a friend who flew as captain for Braaten some 25 years ago when his aircraft broke up at cruising altitude. The radar saw several echoes descending at different speeds into the ocean. As far as I know, the cause was never identified and I don't think the boxes or the remains of the aircraft were ever found.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-01-29 12:49:05 and read 30464 times.



Quoting BA84 (Reply 45):
Quoting FCA767 (Reply 44):
Why do airlines do this?

Because people are superstitious, especially in third world countries.

Not just third world countries. Even in Europe most carriers don't have a row numbered 13 while that's rare in North America (except CO and possibly one or two others). And in much of the world hotels rarely have a floor numbered 13.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-29 13:23:53 and read 30442 times.



Quoting BA84 (Reply 45):
especially in third world countries.

Really?  

Quoting JONukl (Reply 46):
I feel the silence about the name of the pilot and co-pilot a little strange.

I don't have the time to browse back right now, but the name of the pilot is stated in one of the articles and he had experience as both a pilot and a co-pilot on this aircraft and he also commonly flew this exact route (ADD-BEY-ADD).

Speaking of names, this article lists the names of all the passengers that were on board when the plane crashed: http://www.tayyar.org/Tayyar/News/Po...iopianBoeing-LebanonSea-234567.htm

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Rwessel
Posted 2010-01-29 13:38:29 and read 30286 times.



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 19):
It would seem from the rough flight track on the Flightglobal link, that a turn to 270 could have been misunderstood as a left 270 degree turn.

I don't know, but wouldn't an order to make a 270 degree turn would be exceedingly rare in practice?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-01-29 13:55:50 and read 30233 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 27):
Careful with witnesses! They are important, but they are also a nuisance! Filter them all carefully, and you may find, there are no witnesses in the end !

I've got a question that might have been missed or have an obvious answer, but anyway here it is:

If the plane departed ~0230, would this so-called witnesses be awake? It just doesn't make sense that people are wondering around at that time of night. "Normal" people we might say they are, I would think are asleep by then... could this lead to some sort of mislead to the investigators?

Thanks,
-Aeolus

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Dragon6172
Posted 2010-01-29 14:01:00 and read 30196 times.



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 49):
I don't know, but wouldn't an order to make a 270 degree turn would be exceedingly rare in practice?

Not sure. I heard it occasionally, but that was almost always VFR type flying. I am pretty sure assigning a heading is standard though. What I meant though, was that ATC did say turn to heading 270, and it was the pilots who interpretted it to mean turn 270 degrees. Who knows, it is all assumptions and guesses at this stage really.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-29 14:17:49 and read 30142 times.



Quoting Aeolus (Reply 50):

If the plane departed ~0230, would this so-called witnesses be awake? It just doesn't make sense that people are wondering around at that time of night. "Normal" people we might say they are, I would think are asleep by then... could this lead to some sort of mislead to the investigators?

The airport as well as the region around the site of the crash are well seen by several dense residential areas around the capital and at its peripheries. So if we were to say one of every thousand stays up til 3AM, we're talking about a pretty long list. Not to mention the mountains that also overlook the sight, and considerable fraction of the Beirut sea front. Someone who has been to Beirut would know that cars driving around at up to 3AM (and much later during weekends) isn't something strange at all.

That being said, I don't really see anything substantial to indicate the aircraft burst to flames, and as you were discussing earlier eye witnesses are mistaken more often than they are not.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Matthew11
Posted 2010-01-29 15:52:58 and read 29935 times.



Quoting Aeolus (Reply 50):

Beirut is a city that doesn't sleep! I have been there 3 times and amazed how noisy the city is all night. The first two nights I couldn't get a good sleep. You can hear people laughing and chatting in the streets, cars driving with music on and honking horns! Truly an amazing city!

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-29 16:26:26 and read 29813 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 48):
I don't have the time to browse back right now, but the name of the pilot is stated in one of the articles and he had experience as both a pilot and a co-pilot on this aircraft and he also commonly flew this exact route (ADD-BEY-ADD).

I have browsed back, but not found any name. The only type of statement that I can find is typically like this
Ethiopian Airlines spokesperson Wogayehu Tefere said the pilot was senior, "with a lot of experience" and
had been "working for the company for 20 years". "He had been a co-pilot on this aircraft before and he flew this route on a regular basis as well as other routes."

It does not state his name nor explicitely if he had flewn this route and aircraft as pilot in command before. The silence is remarcable when compared to the reaction by Air France after AF-447.

Please correct me if I missed something.

I did a rought estimation of the distance to be sailed by Grapple. It looks like about 1300 nm at 13 knots, so I expect arrical at Beirut after about four days.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2010-01-29 16:42:38 and read 29774 times.

Quoting JONukl (Reply 46):
I feel the silence about the name of the pilot and co-pilot a little strange.

I have never understood why people feel the need to know names in these circumstances. If you knew them personally then you would probably know already who they are , and if you didnt know them personally what difference does their name make to you ? Perhaps you could explain how knowing their names would make a difference to you ?

[Edited 2010-01-29 17:09:34 by kiwiandrew]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-01-29 17:01:22 and read 29954 times.

Hello, everyone
First of all, in order to avoid any misunderstandings, here is my reconstruction of the 409 track as a drawing speaks more than a thousand words.
[img]http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1650/et409flighttrack0001.jpg[/img]

Because of the climb needs, I kept the airplane speed at 210kt or thereabout. The acceleration/cleaning up to clean configuration/210kt was completed during the right turn to HDG 360

Quoting BA (Reply 13):
great for uploading images and you don't have to register if you don't want to.

Thanks a lot. See that I followed your advice !

Quoting BA (Reply 13):
Here are the newest OLBA charts I've found online:

Thanks for your contribution !

Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 15):
A question: At what point is autopilot switched on?

There is no hard rule. I have observed that generally pilots tend to hand-fly until the aircraft is clean. But in a busy environment, I've seen A/P on just passed 400 ft climbing.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 16):
The AP will shut off if the plane in is rough conditions. This prevents the AP from inputting severe changes which could upset the aircraft. Also the AP is often not used in rough conditions because the pilots can fly much smoother than the AP.

I'm afraid the main reason is that pilots like to be in control in rough conditions.

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 19):
a turn to 270 could have been misunderstood as a left 270 degree turn. Bad weather and hand flying, could be a CFIT

I can't believe for one second that the clearance was a "270° turn to the left". The main purpose of an ATC instruction is that both the pilot and the ATCO agree on a very clear manœuvre, in this case, "stop turning when you reach heading 270°". The instruction can't be otherwise on IFR.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 27):
What a vectoring disaster! No, I am not blaming the ATC... but, this is why one needs to be on the ball in the cockpit or in front of the radar screen. One thing that ATC need to plan ahead with is, "would these instructions result in confusion? If so, how to avert confusion". It's just one of those things.

We're again on the same wavelength.

Quoting JONukl (Reply 33):
I see some large Ericsson radar antenna from my window (they are on top of an Ericsson testing facility). Even the very large ones seems to rotate once every 10 seconds. Assuming thigngs were falling from 9000 m to the sea

A revolution every 2 to 3 seconds is a general rule.
Careful with the units : someone talked about a reached altitude of 9000 FEET.

Quoting BA (Reply 40):
. Notice how one of the pieces shows the last two letters of the aircraft's registration, ET-ANB. Looks like the nose gear door.

looks like the right nose gear door.

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 51):
I am pretty sure assigning a heading is standard though. What I meant though, was that ATC did say turn to heading 270, and it was the pilots who interpretted it to mean turn 270 degrees.

See above, pls.

Quoting JONukl (Reply 46):
I once had a friend who flew as captain for Braaten some 25 years ago when his aircraft broke up at cruising altitude.

Could you be a bit more accurate on that accident as I can't find it anywhere ?...

[Edited 2010-01-29 17:04:55]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Comorin
Posted 2010-01-29 17:51:24 and read 29673 times.

Very dumb question: Could the pilot have unknowingly turned left thinking he had just leveled off after the original turn? If his instruments were off then he could have banked left increasingly and spiraled into the sea.

An AI747 had a stuck gyro at take off from BOM and plunged into the sea some time back, and the plane's nose-up attitude prevented the PF from seeing a natural horizon. Could the same have happened here? Lightning knocks out sensors and display?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: CYSAFAN
Posted 2010-01-29 17:59:52 and read 29788 times.

Hey all!! I found a video showing three or two footages of the plane exploding!! Everyone looking for how the plane disappeared should watch this!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnabIGeT7uE

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-29 18:20:16 and read 29666 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 56):
First of all, in order to avoid any misunderstandings, here is my reconstruction of the 409 track as a drawing speaks more than a thousand words.

Fantastic effort. Thank you.

Quoting CYSAFAN (Reply 58):
Hey all!! I found a video showing three or two footages of the plane exploding!! Everyone looking for how the plane disappeared should watch this!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnabI...eT7uE

This video was discussed previously. It really doesn't show much except that lightning possibly struck in the vicinity.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-01-29 18:24:54 and read 29600 times.



Quoting CYSAFAN (Reply 58):
Hey all!! I found a video showing three or two footages of the plane exploding!! Everyone looking for how the plane disappeared should watch this!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnabI...eT7uE


That movie has been discussed already in previous postings.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: AVLNative
Posted 2010-01-29 18:50:01 and read 29571 times.

Interesting article today -

Pilot disorientation accidents have become a phenomenon

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ents-have-become-a-phenomenon.html

If investigators determine that pilots' loss of spatial awareness caused the crash of the Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737-800 crash in the sea off Beirut on 25 January, there will have been nearly 1,000 deaths in similar accidents since 2000.

Early indications point to striking similarities between the loss of Ethiopian flight ET409 and six other fatal airline accidents since 2000.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2010-01-29 19:00:00 and read 29538 times.



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 49):
I don't know, but wouldn't an order to make a 270 degree turn would be exceedingly rare in practice?

Yes, rare, not impossible, but rare... exceedingly? probably.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 56):
A revolution every 2 to 3 seconds is a general rule.

Building on that... The ones at busy airports require frequent updates, so yes, a revolution every 2-3 secs... 1 every 6 - 7 secs is normal for area radar and enroute... and 1 every 30 secs, is a biiiiit slow for air traffic... but won't be surprised for ground based weather radars.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 57):
Very dumb question: Could the pilot have unknowingly turned left thinking he had just leveled off after the original turn? If his instruments were off then he could have banked left increasingly and spiraled into the sea.

That's called Spatial Disorientation. For this, it needs the following:
- Manual flight
- No visual reference to horizon (or illusion of horizon present)
- Either the crew cannot see the instruments or they thought the instruments were erroneous
(note: instrumentation error that's followed does not come under spatial disorientation)

The sad thing is, it's a lot more common than one thinks... we are after all... HUMAN!

Hmmm... seeing that nose gear door tells something... the rod is still in place, but the deformation on the door... nasty.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-29 19:31:44 and read 29477 times.

Here are two articles from earlier today about the debris photos I posted above and the location of the black box:


More Parts of Ethiopian Plane Wreckage Found

Rescue teams on Friday continued to search for victims and the black boxes of an Ethiopian plane that crashed off the Lebanese coast on Monday with 90 passengers and crew on board.
There was no significant progress to report by mid-afternoon Friday except for the discovery of part of the plane wreckage that has been drifted toward the shore of Ouzai.

President Michel Suleiman was briefed Friday by Defense Minister Elias Murr on the latest reports about the location of the black boxes and ways to retrieve them.

Search teams had picked up the flight data recorder signals late Wednesday but Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi said it remained unclear whether the boxes were still inside the body of the Boeing 737-800, which plunged into the Mediterranean minutes after takeoff.

"If the black boxes are not in the body of the plane, it is easier to access them," he said. "But if they are still inside the plane, the recovery will be more complicated."

The boxes were located in a seafloor trench which makes access more difficult, a defense ministry official told AFP.

Information Minister Tareq Mitri said late Thursday that the black boxes were about 14 kilometers (9 miles) off the coast at a depth of 1,500 meters (4,920 feet) and in an area of seven square kilometers (2.7 square miles).


http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Ne...C3E6947C11EA1CC22576BA002E9AFA



Black box eludes hunt as search for crash victims' bodies continues

By Patrick Galey
Daily Star staff
Saturday, January 30, 2010

BEIRUT: Teams aiming to recover the black box of the Ethiopian Airlines jet which crashed off the coast of Beirut made little headway on Friday, as the dead continued to be buried across Lebanon. A 7-kilometer-square patch of sea in the eastern Mediterranean was being combed by international retrieval ships and helicopters and several pieces of wreckage were hauled ashore.

“We are still looking. We have combed two-thirds of the area,” Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi told AFP.


http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....1&categ_id=1&article_id=111266


It looks like they found the general area of where the black boxes are located, but not the exact location.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: CYSAFAN
Posted 2010-01-29 19:36:52 and read 29460 times.



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 62):
Hmmm... seeing that nose gear door tells something... the rod is still in place, but the deformation on the door... nasty.

The plane must have been spun uncontrollably and the ATC thought that the pilot is not following instructions as the pilot must have focused more on saving the plane than instructions which the aircraft then broke up into four major parts and some debris before smashing into the seas and disappeared from radar.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: CYSAFAN
Posted 2010-01-29 19:40:07 and read 29409 times.

And maybe some automated messages to distract the pilots harder.. All this are my own opinion but all comments and critics are welcome!!

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Toobz
Posted 2010-01-29 20:43:12 and read 29354 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 54):
Quoting Ramzi (Reply 48):
I don't have the time to browse back right now, but the name of the pilot is stated in one of the articles and he had experience as both a pilot and a co-pilot on this aircraft and he also commonly flew this exact route (ADD-BEY-ADD).

I have browsed back, but not found any name. The only type of statement that I can find is typically like this
Ethiopian Airlines spokesperson Wogayehu Tefere said the pilot was senior, "with a lot of experience" and
had been "working for the company for 20 years". "He had been a co-pilot on this aircraft before and he flew this route on a regular basis as well as other routes."

Ramzi is right. The name was mentioned along with him co piloting the 73 as well. 20+ yrs flying. It was in part 1 or 2

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-01-29 20:45:36 and read 29322 times.



Quoting BA (Reply 63):
Black box eludes hunt as search for crash victims' bodies continues



Has the NTSB been asked to assist with this investigation yet, sounds like the current investigation could use the help.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-29 21:30:26 and read 29209 times.



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 67):
Has the NTSB been asked to assist with this investigation yet, sounds like the current investigation could use the help.

Yes, they arrived on Thursday along with a representative from Boeing.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2010-01-29 22:33:52 and read 29200 times.

1. Capt. Habtamu Benti Negasa
2. First Officer Alula Tamerat (Co-Pilot)
3. Flight Lead Attendant Seblewengel Seyoum
4. Flight Attendant Gelila Gedion
5. Flight Attendant Seble Gebretsadik
6. Flight Attendant Helen Addissie
7. Flight Attendant Netsanet Yifru

This list is posted in a lot of places, cannot vouch for it's accuracy, though.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2010-01-29 22:39:10 and read 29226 times.

http://www.ethiopianreview.com/content/12361

Pics of crew...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2010-01-29 23:04:43 and read 29113 times.

Five f/a's on a 738 with less than 150 seats. Pretty impressive by American standards.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Giopan1975
Posted 2010-01-29 23:46:20 and read 29051 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 56):
I can't believe for one second that the clearance was a "270° turn to the left". The main purpose of an ATC instruction is that both the pilot and the ATCO agree on a very clear manœuvre, in this case, "stop turning when you reach heading 270°". The instruction can't be otherwise on IFR.

 checkmark 

From the little I know this should be textbook practice in aviation or in any other profession that requires one to be precise. What kind of a controller would ask a pilot to make a 270 dg left turn instead of asking him to turn left heading 270? This kind of a controller would be dangerous and should be sent home without any second thoughts.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-29 23:49:17 and read 29170 times.



Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 72):
270 dg left turn instead of asking him to turn left heading 270?

No controller would do such a thing. The press, however, could easily mis-communicate such information due to their (understandable) lack of expertise in the matter.  

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-01-30 01:20:26 and read 28858 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 43):
Unless the radar was actually recording its descent/disintegration; we don't know yet that it didn't break up in mid air?

We don't have a reliable info on that. There was only mention of it "disappearing" from the radar screen. Which could only mean that the transponder ceased working.

Quoting FCA767 (Reply 44):
Why do airlines do this? I think the future passengers will realise that it still happened in Beirut regardless of flight number...It's like "let's fool them that because it's a new flight number that they will feel safer" I'm mean this within any country destination not just beirut...

Well, imagine if you enter the flight number of your future flight on google and find out it's the same as a disaster, not very reassuring even if you're not superstitious.

Quoting JONukl (Reply 54):
It does not state his name nor explicitely if he had flewn this route and aircraft as pilot in command before. The silence is remarcable when compared to the reaction by Air France after AF-447.

It seems you were wrong, but still, I'd like to point out that trying to hide this information, in the case of AF (and probably ET too) would prove impossible, many people in the airline knew who was in the cockpit.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: CYSAFAN
Posted 2010-01-30 03:21:57 and read 28744 times.

Read this everyone... This is the result of what happened after the Boeing 738 Tragedy.. Passengers refused to board a B738!! http://www.ethiopianreview.com/content/12396

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: CYSAFAN
Posted 2010-01-30 03:24:33 and read 28630 times.

I don't know whether this has been posted before...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: CYSAFAN
Posted 2010-01-30 03:29:10 and read 28788 times.

And the original Captain for ET-409 escapes the crash !! Read here!   http://www.ethiopianreview.com/content/12308

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-01-30 03:54:18 and read 28559 times.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 43):
But this was a 757, according to Aviation Herald; http://avherald.com/h?article=4267a5...opt=0


We can rely on the media to pounce on any incident they think is remotely connected... even if it isn't.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 57):
If his instruments were off then he could have banked left increasingly and spiraled into the sea.


Just to emphasise what Mandala499 said, spatial disorientation can happen even when the instruments are functioning normally.

Quoting AVLNative (Reply 61):
Early indications point to striking similarities between the loss of Ethiopian flight ET409 and six other fatal airline accidents since 2000.


And many more before that. Training and experience can only help so far. Our senses have served us well on the ground for thousands of years and it can be difficult to ignore them in certain circumstances.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-01-30 04:02:12 and read 28562 times.



Quoting BA84 (Reply 45):
Because people are superstitious, especially in third world countries.

Maybe you want to rephrase that - it's quite culturally arrogant (and wrong).

Quoting Rwessel (Reply 49):
wouldn't an order to make a 270 degree turn would be exceedingly rare in practice?



Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 72):
What kind of a controller would ask a pilot to make a 270 dg left turn instead of asking him to turn left heading 270? This kind of a controller would be dangerous and should be sent home without any second thoughts.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 73):
No controller would do such a thing.

It's actually quite common in a VFR environment - for example when an aircraft doing touch and goes is on a right base and the controller wants to depart scheduled aircraft, s/he'll direct a 270 left.


Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 67):
Has the NTSB been asked to assist with this investigation yet, sounds like the current investigation could use the help.

In what respect do you judge the investigation deficient, and how do you know?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-30 04:24:38 and read 28442 times.



Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 79):
It's actually quite common in a VFR environment - for example when an aircraft doing touch and goes is on a right base and the controller wants to depart scheduled aircraft, s/he'll direct a 270 left.

I should clarify: no controller would do such a thing as a mistake. Thanks for clarifying, however.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Dragon6172
Posted 2010-01-30 05:20:41 and read 28309 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 73):
No controller would do such a thing. The press, however, could easily mis-communicate such information due to their (understandable) lack of expertise in the matter.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 56):
I can't believe for one second that the clearance was a "270° turn to the left". The main purpose of an ATC instruction is that both the pilot and the ATCO agree on a very clear manœuvre, in this case, "stop turning when you reach heading 270°". The instruction can't be otherwise on IFR.



Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 79):
It's actually quite common in a VFR environment - for example when an aircraft doing touch and goes is on a right base and the controller wants to depart scheduled aircraft, s/he'll direct a 270 left.

This is why I specifically put in my post that I had only heard this type of direction flying VFR and if this was something that happened in this accident, that it was a misunderstanding by the pilots, not a poor instruction given by ATC.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Comorin
Posted 2010-01-30 05:20:48 and read 28321 times.

Mandala, given that spatial disorientation is a possibility for pilots, are they not trained to recognize it and immediately follow a protocol? Or does it all happen too fast? I guess you could be spatially disoriented and know it either.

Are the crashes caused by unremoved pitot tube covers (Punta Cana, 757) also an example of SD?

Thanks.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-01-30 07:09:37 and read 28130 times.

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 67):
Has the NTSB been asked to assist with this investigation yet, sounds like the current investigation could use the help

Of course the NTSB was invited to observe the investigation in the first hours after the crash. It was a US built aircraft, probably with US built engines. That is normal protocol.

However, nothing indicates there is any problem with the investigation.

Also - recovery of crash debris underwater is not an area of NTSB expertise. They leave that to the salvage experts. The Lebanese military has experts of their own, and they have brought in additional experts from France along with asking for the standby assistance of the US Navy.

Kind of a dumb statement - especially since the presence of the USS Ramage and the USNS Grapple - one of the best salvage ships in the world - is mentioned in these threads already several times.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584143,00.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lebanon_plane_crash

[Edited 2010-01-30 07:14:34]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-30 07:32:07 and read 28025 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 56):
Could you be a bit more accurate on that accident as I can't find it anywhere ?...

I wish I could give you more exact info. It's now a long time ago, my memory is not perfect, and most of my notes from that time are discarded by now. It must have been between 1986 and 89 because I lived in Oslo we were still busy analyzing samples, doing calculations, and trying to understand what really went wrong in Chernobyl. My secretary, who shared apartment with him, broke completely and stayed home for several days. I am not sure if he really flew a plane belonging to Braaten on that occation - but I remember it was a charter flight with a rather old aircraft.

My questions about the names etc were mostly made in an attempt to try to understand the safety culture and openness of the airline. After some 25 years without accidents, the safety culture may easily have degraded and corners now being cut. I have seen this phenomenon before in the nuclear field, but I have no ground to suspect it in the current case.

Let us hope that the boxes will be recovered and their content useful.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2010-01-30 08:06:21 and read 27945 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 84):
My secretary, who shared apartment with him, broke completely and stayed home for several days. I am not sure if he really flew a plane belonging to Braaten on that occation - but I remember it was a charter flight with a rather old aircraft.

Are you sure that it was Braathens ? What you describe sounds very similar to Partnair flight 394

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnair_Flight_394

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-30 08:28:38 and read 27828 times.



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 85):
What you describe sounds very similar to Partnair flight 394

Thanks a LOT! Yes it is that one I have now read the norwegian accident report, which I never did before. I left Norway at the end of 1989. My memory is apparently wrong on many details ("a typical witness problem?") - which is not strange after such a long time. Probably mixed up the dead VCR "with not found".

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-01-30 08:30:58 and read 27811 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 84):
After some 25 years without accidents, the safety culture may easily have degraded and corners now being cut.

Even if the names had not been released to the general public, I'm sure those who need to know the crew details would be informed. I don't see how our knowing the names of the crew says anything about the safety culture.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-01-30 08:31:13 and read 27806 times.



Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 79):
In what respect do you judge the investigation deficient, and how do you know?



I did'nt say the investigation was deficient, I just wondered if they were involved with the investigation yet is all

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 83):
However, nothing indicates there is any problem with the investigation.



Once again no one said there was a problem.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-01-30 08:50:09 and read 27888 times.



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 83):
Kind of a dumb statement - especially since the presence of the USS Ramage and the USNS Grapple - one of the best salvage ships in the world - is mentioned in these threads already several times.



I'm sorry I did not realize you had such an extensive knowledge and background of accident investigations, this one in particular. However I was just curious if the NTSB was part of this investigation yet. In the future I will not ask such dumb questions as if I were... I don't know, an unemployed computer geek.  

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-30 08:58:32 and read 27699 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 89):
Even if the names had not been released to the general public, I'm sure those who need to know the crew details would be informed. I don't see how our knowing the names of the crew says anything about the safety culture.

The rather vauge and incomplete statement from the airline that I found initially posted on their web-site might have hinted to a try to supress as much as possible of the detailed information, not to worry presumtive customers, etc. Such behaviour can be typical for organisations with a poor safety culture, according the research reports on this matter that I have read over the years. However, I have found no ground for that in this case. If anybody feels offended, please forgive me.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-01-30 09:31:37 and read 27582 times.



Quoting David L (Reply 89):
Even if the names had not been released to the general public, I'm sure those who need to know the crew details would be informed. I don't see how our knowing the names of the crew says anything about the safety culture


Lets remember the crash happened very late at night, also they have to make double sure they have the names right then they have to inform the family of the crew. In a lot of accident you read name of the victims is withheld pending informing the family. So lets not try to see too much in this.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-30 10:35:14 and read 27592 times.

Press photos from earlier today:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0a7C89d2qK0ai/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ct0dgx7zS0Sq/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aBxdcgdut0C6/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/09Tw3KpgaZ0P4/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/049QgZe3n0dHs/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gx29Z28pb6DC/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00a42dQ853eKC/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cewbBb0u54RT/721x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01iSe4M6igaI4/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0axXgNt5JC2Ue/1000x.jpg

Looks like this search area is right next to the airport as those rocks make up the wave breaker for runway 16/34 which protrudes out into the sea.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-30 11:04:52 and read 27326 times.

Isn't the black suit (man in the last photo) the republican guard outfit? Either way he looks like the odd one out.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-30 11:11:22 and read 27440 times.

9:05am Future News TV: The privately-operated U.S. civilian vessel Ocean Alert is anchored at Beirut Port for refueling and stocking up food supplies. An Italian ship is preparing to come to Lebanon to participate in search operations.

This is the vessel that has been scanning the sea floor in addition to the USS Ramage. It is capable of salvaging wreckage up to 2,000 meters deep.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02Xyfmp4Iq8Zo/1000x.jpg

Another ship owned by the same company, Odyssey Explorer, will be sent once the exact location of the black boxes has been pinpointed.

Lebanon said the Odyssey Explorer, a vessel operated by a private US firm that specialises in underwater recovery, would be sent in as soon as the exact location of the black boxes was determined.

The cabinet had "asked that the Odyssey Explorer... be sent to intervene as soon as the block boxes are located," Information Minister Tarek Mitri told AFP.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Ocean Alert, another vessel operated by the same US company that owns the Odyssey Explorer and specialises in undersea recovery, has been sweeping the area where the signals were detected.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5j3cUPdC8TQ0JGJSD-Pn1XTX4EV1w

The company which owns these two ships is called Odyssey Marine Exploration:
http://www.shipwreck.net/

Quoting Ramzi (Reply 98):
Isn't the black suit (man in the last photo) the republican guard outfit? Either way he looks like the odd one out.

I've seen Civil Defense units in both dark blue and black outfits. Perhaps it has to do with different tasks within the Civil Defense.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-01-30 12:19:35 and read 27145 times.



Quoting BA (Reply 99):
I've seen Civil Defense units in both dark blue and black outfits. Perhaps it has to do with different tasks within the Civil Defense.

Probably so. I've seen the dark blue ones, first time seeing the black. Thanks for the info on Odyssey Marine Exploration, interesting.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-01-30 14:35:53 and read 26807 times.



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 91):
However I was just curious if the NTSB was part of this investigation yet. In the future I will not ask such dumb questions as if I were... I don't know, an unemployed computer geek.

The NTSB will be part of the investigation, due to the origin of the manufacturer, but Lebanon and France are linked by an aviation cooperation accord and as such Lebanon has asked France to send a BEA team.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-01-30 21:53:55 and read 26314 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 48):
Speaking of names, this article lists the names of all the passengers that were on board when the plane crashed: http://www.tayyar.org/Tayyar/News/Po...iopianBoeing-LebanonSea-234567.htm

Correction, only Lebanese citizens are listed.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-30 22:05:53 and read 26359 times.



Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 107):
Correction, only Lebanese citizens are listed.

Here's the full list:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article...._id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=111085

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-01-31 05:50:19 and read 25890 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 80):



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 85):
Are you sure that it was Braathens ? What you describe sounds very similar to Partnair flight 394

Super work ! Couldn't have found it with thye scarce info provided !

Quoting Comorin (Reply 82):
Mandala, given that spatial disorientation is a possibility for pilots, are they not trained to recognize it and immediately follow a protocol? Or does it all happen too fast? I guess you could be spatially disoriented and know it either.

Spatial disorientation, vertigo, somatographic illusions are part of an airman's life.
If you thought of it for a minute, without it, we wouldn't have flight simulators, as those are designed to lure your senses into a set of senbsory illusions. If one has the time to iudentify a spatial disporientation onset, it's easy to cope with :concentrate on instruments, be patient.
Otherwise, it could become the silentiest killer you could imagine. I'll find to-night a training documenty on the subject.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 82):
Are the crashes caused by unremoved pitot tube covers (Punta Cana, 757) also an example of SD?

No. It' is an example of unexploitable instrument info.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Comorin
Posted 2010-01-31 06:06:14 and read 25778 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 109):

Thank you for the explanation, eagerly await the video if you can find it!

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-01-31 07:54:45 and read 25543 times.



Quoting UALWN (Reply 111):
which seems to indicate you find it lacking.



No...

Quoting UALWN (Reply 111):
Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 90):
I did'nt say the investigation was deficient, I just wondered if they were involved with the investigation yet is all



You quoted it, now please read it. My statement is clear.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA84
Posted 2010-01-31 08:29:47 and read 25597 times.



Quoting Pihero (Reply 109):
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 85):
Are you sure that it was Braathens ? What you describe sounds very similar to Partnair flight 394

Super work ! Couldn't have found it with thye scarce info provided !

Partnair 394 is a very interesting accident.

Here is a link, if you have time for a coffee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnair_Flight_394

BA84

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA84
Posted 2010-01-31 08:48:09 and read 25568 times.

Partnair 394 photo:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Olaf Juergensmeier



BA84

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-31 09:51:38 and read 25278 times.



Quoting BA84 (Reply 113):
Partnair 394 is a very interesting accident.

As I easily read Norvegian, I read the original accidcent report. In some parts the report contains very interesting information not found in the wikipedia piece. In reality it was a sad and long chain of mistakes, neglects, assumptions, and short-cuts. It all started when the aircraft was rebuilt to a turboprop. Apparently the causes to the accident could have been discovered many times before if proper procedures had been followed, not least during its last D-check. The report concludes that it was unlikely that the pilots recognized that something was wrong until the accident was in full progress and the tail desintegrating. Here is the link to the report. http://www.aibn.no/aviation/reports/1993-031

The fin of AF-447 also broke off at some time. Could there be some hidden similarity?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2010-01-31 11:16:32 and read 25044 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 115):
The fin of AF-447 also broke off at some time.

The interim reports seem to have estabished that it broke off when the aircraft impacted the surface of the water - apparently when the attachment points were examined there was sufficient evidence both from the manner and the sequence in which they broke to determine this . I will see whether I can find the link for you as it is also very interesting reading .

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-01-31 11:25:34 and read 25018 times.

Not sure if this will affect the current search efforts, but the Lebanese Navy has gotten preoccupied towing a sinking Panamanian-flagged cargo ship that ran aground off the coast of Tripoli (Lebanon's 2nd largest city).

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-01-31 13:04:37 and read 24733 times.



Quoting BA84 (Reply 113):
Partnair 394 is a very interesting accident.

Here is a link, if you have time for a coffee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnair_Flight_394

BA84

After seeing about it earlier in the thread I went to wikipedia an found it, really interesting indeed. And not just the crash and its causes but also its consequences, like the discovery that there were fake parts on Air Force 1 !

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-01-31 15:49:43 and read 24495 times.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 116):
I will see whether I can find the link for you as it is also very interesting reading .

I have read both the first and the second report about AF-447 several times. Here is a link to the interesting second report:
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...90601e2.en/pdf/f-cp090601e2.en.pdf

[Edited 2010-01-31 15:51:14]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-02-01 03:09:13 and read 23954 times.

In case anybody wants to follow the "trawling" for the black boxes and wreckage by Ocean Alert rty this link.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?level0=100#

[Edited 2010-02-01 03:21:15]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: FCA767
Posted 2010-02-01 04:54:20 and read 23699 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 119):
I have read both the first and the second report about AF-447 several times. Here is a link to the interesting second report:

Thankyou! I needed this...I was wondering as always about whether they had done the 3rd phase or not, as everything on here went quiet...I now understand that it takes part in Febuary...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Acabgd
Posted 2010-02-01 06:06:07 and read 23612 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 120):
In case anybody wants to follow the "trawling" for the black boxes and wreckage by Ocean Alert rty this link.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/def...=100#

If I'm not mistaken the track seems to have narrowed. It might indicate they found something and are looking more closely?

http://i49.tinypic.com/2mhht8g.jpg

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-02-02 08:15:50 and read 22864 times.

Breaking news: the Lebanese military has found the wreckage of the crashed aircraft 3kilometers off the Na'meh shore at a depth of less than 100meters and has begun retrieving the bodies of the victims.

http://www.tayyar.org/tayyar

Minister of transportation denied allegations that the aircraft or any victim's bodies have been found, however several news agencies are still reporting this and there seems to be military and rescue activity in the area.

[Edited 2010-02-02 08:25:35 by ramzi]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-02-02 08:48:27 and read 22685 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 123):
Minister of transportation denied allegations that the aircraft or any victim's bodies have been found, however several news agencies are still reporting this and there seems to be military and rescue activity in the area.

Sounds like another case of: we won't know things until the dust settles.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-02-02 12:51:09 and read 22361 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 123):
Minister of transportation denied allegations that the aircraft or any victim's bodies have been found

I don't really understand what is going on. It was earlier stated the the pingers from the CVR and FDR were observed and their position found. Somehow this seems not to have helped in recovering them and the wreckage. It's a pity that the new and better design of "black boxes" being investigated and discussed still has not come to fruitaton.
Will we know when the boxes are recovered?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: PlunaCRJ
Posted 2010-02-02 13:02:50 and read 22324 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 123):
at a depth of less than 100meters

Just 100 meters? Good news certainly. One hundred meters is very different from the aprox. 1500 meters or so previously quoted.

Regards,

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-02 16:05:31 and read 22158 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 125):
Somehow this seems not to have helped in recovering them and the wreckage.

Unlike television or the movies, the pingers will not guide you to them.

You need to triangulate the signals from different angles to give you a close ballpark of where they are located. But because you have two devices - the FDR and the CVR - pinging on the same signal, there might be interference making the angle difficult to pin down.

Also because these are sounds being transmitted through water, they are not like radio signals where three bearings will give you a precise location. The water temperture, salinity and other factors can make the direction of the signal source difficult to pin down.

Once you know approximately where they are located - you have to find them.

Imagine sitting in a hot air balloon at 300 feet above the ground covered with fog. And using a rope with a hook and a camera to locate and retirieve a basketball sized object. And even with the camera you cannot see more than five or ten feet. Maybe 30 feet if the water is exceptionally clear. Oh, and it is night, so you have a flashlight attached to the camera.

Also, I have no idea of the state of the sea floor off the coast. It could be flat, but from the descriptions I have head, it is pretty rough with a deep trench from a river near Beirut.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-02-02 16:37:30 and read 22107 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 123):
Minister of transportation denied allegations that the aircraft or any victim's bodies have been found,




If this is story about finding the wreckage is true , why all this runaround?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-02 16:45:25 and read 22111 times.



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 128):
If this is story about finding the wreckage is true , why all this runaround?

It's not true. The media is spreading a lot of rumors and false information.

Mitri denies recovery of Ethiopian airliner’s fuselage, bodies

February 2, 2010

Information Minister Tarek Mitri denied in a statement on Tuesday media reports saying that the Lebanese Armed Forces found the fuselage of the Ethiopian airliner. He added that only one body had been recovered earlier in the day.

Mitri also urged media outlets to be accurate in delivering the news and to refer to appropriate sources out of respect for the victims’ families as well as for all Lebanese.


http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=143279

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-02-02 16:50:33 and read 22087 times.



Quoting BA (Reply 129):
It's not true. The media is spreading a lot of rumors and false information.



Very well, That's too bad I was hoping that the wreckage was found.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-02 16:53:04 and read 22085 times.



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 130):
Very well, That's too bad I was hoping that the wreckage was found.

Hopefully they will soon. A salvage ship with a special submarine called the Odyssey Marine is on its way from Italy.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Angelmonsteral
Posted 2010-02-02 16:57:56 and read 22083 times.

Does anyone have photos of this accident?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-02 17:05:19 and read 22162 times.



Quoting Angelmonsteral (Reply 132):
Does anyone have photos of this accident?

There are several photos of wreckage recovered posted in this very thread. For older photos, check the first two threads.

To mark one week of the crash, flags and flowers were placed along the coast:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ehWcZM0mD2WG/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00Kgcb99YMaU1/667x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gvC1Qm5MpdmM/1000x.jpg

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Rolfen
Posted 2010-02-02 17:10:29 and read 22066 times.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 123):
Breaking news: the Lebanese military has found the wreckage of the crashed aircraft 3kilometers off the Na'meh shore at a depth of less than 100meters and has begun retrieving the bodies of the victims.



Quoting Ramzi (Reply 123):
Minister of transportation denied allegations that the aircraft or any victim's bodies have been found, however several news agencies are still reporting this and there seems to be military and rescue activity in the area.

If there is any wreckage to be found. Maybe the force of the impact didnt leave much.
All we can do is wait and hope.

Quoting Angelmonsteral (Reply 132):
Does anyone have photos of this accident?

What?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-02-02 19:27:19 and read 21941 times.



Quoting Angelmonsteral (Reply 132):
Does anyone have photos of this accident?


The accident occurred at around 02.30AM at about 11 miles from shore, don't think there is any photo's. Suggest you read older threads.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Amexair
Posted 2010-02-02 20:17:44 and read 21913 times.

Here is some interesting article about the accident and some info about the Passengers and Crew who lost their lives(R.I.P)


http://www.addisfortune.com/agenda.htm

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-02 22:38:00 and read 21710 times.

LAF recovers part of Ethiopian airliner wing

February 3, 2010

The Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) issued a statement late Tuesday that the Lebanese Navy recovered part of last week’s crashed Ethiopian airliner wing, which was found at sea four kilometers west of Ras al-Naameh.

The Lebanese Navy along with an investigative team of French experts said that they believed other parts of the airliner might be found in the same area.


http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=143358

A new storm has arrived in the area which will likely hamper search efforts for the next few days.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-02-02 22:49:38 and read 21747 times.

Well, are we to accept the release of info from the Lebanese army, or are we to wait until someone within the government announces it? Or was it erroneous reporting and not leaks from the military that caused the earlier confusion?

-Dave

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Giopan1975
Posted 2010-02-02 23:04:57 and read 21758 times.



Quoting Amexair (Reply 136):
Here is some interesting article about the accident and some info about the Passengers and Crew who lost their lives(R.I.P)


http://www.addisfortune.com/agenda.htm

This brings up the old rudder issue which cannot be discarded as a cause in this crash, especially given the prolonged "strange" left turn before she disappeared from radars.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-02 23:09:10 and read 21736 times.



Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 138):
Well, are we to accept the release of info from the Lebanese army, or are we to wait until someone within the government announces it? Or was it erroneous reporting and not leaks from the military that caused the earlier confusion?

The report carried yesterday by a few media organizations was not an official communique by the military. I am guessing that yesterday the Lebanese Navy actually did locate what was suspected to be part of the plane and it got leaked out to media outlets with some incorrectly reporting that part of the plane had been retrieved. They have now supposedly retrieved the part they found, and when it was confirmed that it's part of the wing, the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) released an official statement.

So hopefully it will be credible this time. Either way, we should hear some details by either the Information Minister or the Transport Minister soon.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-02-02 23:11:03 and read 21719 times.



Quoting BA (Reply 140):
The report carried yesterday by a few media organizations was not an official communique by the military. I am guessing that yesterday the Lebanese Navy actually did locate what was suspected to be part of the plane and it got leaked out to media outlets with some incorrectly reporting that part of the plane had been retrieved. They have now supposedly retrieved the part they found, and when it was confirmed that it's part of the wing, the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) released an official statement.

So hopefully it will be credible this time. Either way, we should hear some details by either the Information Minister or the Transport Minister soon

Thank you for the reply.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-02-02 23:53:45 and read 21723 times.



Quoting JONukl (Reply 125):
Will we know when the boxes are recovered?

Of course.

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 126):
Just 100 meters? Good news certainly. One hundred meters is very different from the aprox. 1500 meters or so previously quoted.

Great news, sadly its not the entire fuselage nor the boxes.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 127):

Once you know approximately where they are located - you have to find them.

This seems to be whats been going on for a few days.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 127):

Also, I have no idea of the state of the sea floor off the coast. It could be flat, but from the descriptions I have head, it is pretty rough with a deep trench from a river near Beirut.

Rough is an understatement. They first suspected the black box at a depth of 50m only to realize its in a 1300 meter deep valley right next to it. Now we really don't know.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 138):
Well, are we to accept the release of info from the Lebanese army

Several government officials are announcing that the Lebanese Army's released are those that should be taken seriously which makes sense since the Lebanese army is in control of the search and rescue operation.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ramzi
Posted 2010-02-03 05:15:26 and read 21471 times.



Quote:


Public Works and Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi said during a press conference on Wednesday that Damascus informed him that a part of last week’s Ethiopian airliner, which crashed off the Lebanese coast, was found in Syrian waters.

The recovered part will be transported to the Lebanese authorities, Aridi added.


http://nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=143447

In arabic: http://www.lebanonfiles.com/news_desc.php?id=141055

Here is the path Ocean Alert followed on February 2. The text is in Arabic but there is an image illustrating the ship's movements.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Trigged
Posted 2010-02-03 06:17:03 and read 21387 times.



Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 139):
This brings up the old rudder issue which cannot be discarded as a cause in this crash, especially given the prolonged "strange" left turn before she disappeared from radars.

Turn is not that sharp. If the 270 degree turn on Flightglobal is accurate, the turn has about a 5 mile radius. Also, the rudder issues affected the 732 and 733, not the 737NG if I am not mistaken.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: MSN007
Posted 2010-02-03 17:04:29 and read 20956 times.

Media speculation continues. According to this report the plane might have been brought down by a rocket because of a Hezbollah delegation that was suppose to be on this flight.

http://ethioforum.org/wp/archives/1738

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-03 17:11:14 and read 20922 times.

Quoting MSN007 (Reply 145):

This is an old story from one week ago. It's not being discussed in the media anymore because it's unsubstantiated. Let's not waste time with old rumors.

[Edited 2010-02-03 17:12:38]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: AVLNative
Posted 2010-02-03 17:52:23 and read 20902 times.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article...._id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=111434

Wreckage from crashed plane found in Syrian waters

Recovery efforts halted as storms render sea conditions unsuitable

BEIRUT: Remnants of the Ethiopian Airlines aircraft which crashed off the coast of Lebanon have been found in Syrian waters, the Transport and Public Works Minister said on Wednesday, even as storms disrupted the ongoing search for wreckage. Ghazi Aridi told reporters at his ministry office in Beirut that the piece of the wrecked Boeing 737-800 would be handed over to Lebanese authorities, after he was alerted by officials in Damascus.

Retrieval operations were halted Wednesday as wind and rain made sea conditions unsuitable for rescue workers, a well-placed security source told The Daily Star.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-02-05 16:19:35 and read 20215 times.

Quoting Acabgd (Reply 111):
Quoting JONukl (Reply 120):
In case anybody wants to follow the "trawling" for the black boxes and wreckage by Ocean Alert rty this link.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/def...=100#

I just looked at it now and it's intriguing - Ocean Alert seems to be on to something (speculation). Could someone kindly display the map as I am unable to do a cut and paste. Ramzi, BA et al, any more news form Lebanon?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-05 16:53:40 and read 20181 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 137):
Ramzi, BA et al, any more news form Lebanon?

Not much.

The Lebanese army said the civilian vessel, Ocean Alert, which has been stranded in Beirut port due to the storm, resumed search early Friday for victims and wreckage of the Ethiopian plane crash.

Stormy weather has suspended search for victims or the remains of the Boeing 737 which crashed into the Mediterranean Sea on Jan. 25 just minutes after takeoff from Beirut in a fierce thunderstorm. All 90 people on board were presumed dead.

Search operations were set to resume at 6 am on Friday with a new integrated Lebanese-international action plan under a "Central Operations Room" (COR) supervised by the Lebanese army, the daily As-Safir has said.

It said "significant progress" has been made in terms of locating the wreckage of the plane, adding that the next step would be pulling the victims out of the water.

Lebanese troops and civil defense workers were deployed along the seashore extending from Ouzai to Naameh south of Beirut in hopes of finding debris washed ashore by waves.

Wednesday's storm, which is expected to last for three days, brought to a standstill diving operations.


http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Ne...p;B455169F7E5C70FFC22576C100359D60

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-05 23:11:33 and read 19992 times.

Major Parts of Ethiopian Plane Wreckage Found

The army command announced Saturday that crews were able to find major parts of the Ethiopian plane wreckage and efforts were underway to photograph them pending their retrieval.
MTV said there was also information that the plane's black boxes were found and will be delivered to the army in the next 3 hours.

Transportation and Public Works Minister Ghazi Aridi told Future News that civilian vessel Ocean Alert was taking pictures of the wreckage.


http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/ne...E60A2C22576C200276CFA?OpenDocument

[Edited 2010-02-05 23:33:21]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-06 00:51:42 and read 19937 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 139):
Major Parts of Ethiopian Plane Wreckage Found

Excellent news. It is being reported that the wreckage was found at a depth of only 45 meters at 2 kilometers off the Naameh cost. I find this strange seeing as that's the first place they looked...

Quoting BA (Reply 139):
MTV said there was also information that the plane's black boxes were found and will be delivered to the army in the next 3 hours.

I've come not to believe the news MTV reports most of the time, but hopefully this is true.

Arabic link: http://www.lebanonfiles.com/news_desc.php?id=141681

Apparently the Lebanese divers have went in to confirm what exactly has been found and check whether the black boxes are with the wreckage. Minister of Transportation, Aridi: 'Retrieving the black box requires precision and the priority will be retrieving bodies.'

Let's hope we'll see progress through the day.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Womack17
Posted 2010-02-06 03:53:28 and read 19718 times.

Quoting BA84 (Reply 102):
Partnair 394 is a very interesting accident.

Check out this fantastic youtube web site - The Partnair 394 crash and investigation is just one of many on this site. Don't want to give too much away, but the cause of the accident was so preventable - very sad,

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=VibraciaX#g/u

-Womack17

[Edited 2010-02-06 03:55:14]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Halophila
Posted 2010-02-06 07:34:30 and read 19519 times.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...crash/story-e6frfku0-1225827481179

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-06 07:37:56 and read 19518 times.

Quote:
Searchers have located the black boxes from the crashed Ethiopian plane, Public Works and Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi told AFP on Saturday.

"The boxes have been found under the rear part of the fuselage," which was found on Saturday morning, the minister said.

"Lebanese army divers have gone down to retrieve them, but this operation will take time," he added.

Source: http://nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=144271

Quote:
Searchers have located the black boxes of the Ethiopian Airlines plane under the jet's tail that has been discovered off the coastal town of Naameh, Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi said Saturday.
"The boxes have been found under the rear part of the fuselage," which was found on Saturday morning, the minister said. "Lebanese army divers have gone down to retrieve them, but this operation will take time," he added.

Aridi's announcement came after a press conference he held on Saturday afternoon.

Earlier in the day, a search vessel, the vessel Ocean Alert found the rear sections of the aircraft's cabin between 10 and 12 meters long at a depth of 45 meters off Naameh, 12 kilometers south of Beirut.

The minister said during the press conference that retrieving parts of the plane was sensitive work.

"We made a positive progress in the search for bodies, the (black) box and consequently the plane," Aridi told reporters.

"We need time. This is a delicate operation. The most important thing is that we have reached an advanced stage," Aridi said. "The result is positive. However we can't deal with it with hastiness."

He also unveiled that Syrian authorities informed him about the discovery of a small part of the plane on the Golden beach in Latakia. It will be handed over to Lebanon on Monday, the minister said.

"I take responsibility for any decision I took and any step I made," he told reporters in response to a question on criticism for allowing foreign ships to scour Lebanese waters.

The minister reiterated there was no foul play in the plane's crash.

An army command communiqué said Saturday morning that crews located parts of the wreckage and teams were photographing them before retrieval.

Source: http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/ne...E60A2C22576C200276CFA?OpenDocument

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-06 07:44:28 and read 19495 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 135):
Quoting MSN007 (Reply 145):

This is an old story from one week ago. It's not being discussed in the media anymore because it's unsubstantiated. Let's not waste time with old rumors.

Allow me to add that this scenario makes absolutely no sense in political terms. Also now that the black boxes have been recovered let's just wait and get the facts as they are. Let's hope they find the rest of the bodies soon...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-06 08:00:50 and read 19458 times.

Any news that the FDR/ CVR boxes have actually been recovered and delivered to investigators yet?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-02-06 08:39:25 and read 19443 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 146):
Any news that the FDR/ CVR boxes have actually been recovered and delivered to investigators yet?

The rear fuselage has been found, so presumably once that is raised, they will recover the recorders and fly them to France for the BEA to analyse.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-06 10:17:36 and read 19358 times.

Public Works and Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi holding under water photographs:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gB6dpsfbo7wn/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02bF5Ny2iO5QG/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bLbgX8aIHbLK/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eu56rDc48alk/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03xvffEccfd5p/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/002m4Zig7N6Ct/1000x.jpg

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-02-06 11:30:29 and read 19151 times.

I presume the blue vessel is the Ocean Alert? I wonder if they'll just haul the crash remains to the surface or float it up in some manner.

I'm glad that there will be an end to the speculation on the cause of the crash soon, especially for the families. Let's hope someday they find AF447's black boxes too, though it's quite remarkable what they have been able to come up with so far.

Once they have the devices at BEA, I wonder how long it'll take them to issue initial findings.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-06 11:31:52 and read 19206 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 147):

Thanks for the photos.

Quote:
NNA - 6/2/2010 - National News Agency reporter in Byblos indicated today that a piece of fiber, which is 1m in length and 60 cm in width, has been detected along the Byblos coastline. The found fiber piece is suspected to belong to the Ethiopian plane, which crashed into the Lebanese sea coast two weeks ago. The piece was handed over to the Lebanese Army.
http://www.nna-leb.gov.lb/phpfolder/loadpage.php?page=E39.html

Byblos is 38 kilometers north of the capital Beirut. For a piece of wreckage to travel from Naameh to Byblos it would have to go around the Beirut peninsula. See here.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2010-02-06 12:33:09 and read 19099 times.

Quoting Giopan1975 (Reply 128):
This brings up the old rudder issue which cannot be discarded as a cause in this crash, especially given the prolonged "strange" left turn before she disappeared from radars.

Yes it can be discarded as a cause in this crash, because a) it affected a completely different model of airplane, b) it was solved regardless, and c) neither of the two crashes blamed on the 737-200/300 rudder actuator had a flight profile in any way similar to this. Both crashes involved a twisting dive into the ground. The heading didn't change much.

Not to mention that the entire reason the actuators froze is because they were literally frozen. That happened after a long flight at cruise altitude where temperatures are 60 below zero. It would not happen on takeoff at sea level.

But regardless, you are talking about two different rudder systems.

Don't make the mistake of looking at superficialities and deciding two crashes are similar just because they involve airplanes that were turning and airplanes beginning with the number "737". People always do that here whenever there's a crash. The details are important.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-06 13:03:09 and read 19035 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 149):
Byblos is 38 kilometers north of the capital Beirut. For a piece of wreckage to travel from Naameh to Byblos it would have to go around the Beirut peninsula.

Not at all unusual for debris to travel that far or around capes and peninsulas this long after a crash. It all depends upon the currents and on the wind.

I've seen reports that some debris have been found in Syria. No doubt some will get to Turkey, maybe even the Greek islands over the next few weeks.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-06 13:21:54 and read 19204 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 149):
I presume the blue vessel is the Ocean Alert?

Correct.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 150):
Byblos is 38 kilometers north of the capital Beirut. For a piece of wreckage to travel from Naameh to Byblos it would have to go around the Beirut peninsula. See here.

A piece of wreckage washed up ashore in Latakia, Syria a few days ago.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-07 02:24:16 and read 18845 times.

The black box has been received at the Beirut Naval Base and will be sent to the BEA 'soon'. Also more of the fuselage has been found, but there is no indication of what or how much of it, however no bodies were found. The families of the victims were at the Naameh shore last night in hopes they would finally receive the bodies of their loved ones.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-07 05:42:38 and read 18642 times.

PM Hariri sent both boxes on a private jet to Paris along with the investigative team that was previously sent here. The FDR was first retrieved and the CVR a little later.

A third body has been retrieved and the rest are expected to follow.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-07 10:48:13 and read 18382 times.

Quote:
Army Command notes recovery of two back wings, one black box, and more bodies

The Lebanese army Command-Directorate of Orientation issued a statement on Sunday that today’s search operations on the Ethiopian plane crash led to the recovery the plane’s back wings, black box and parts of its wreckage at a distance of four kilometers west of the Raes al-Nehmeh area.

The statement said that by 6 p.m. local time, eight bodies were recovered, with search operations still underway to pull the remaining bodies and second black box from the water.

“We owe such results to the the efforts of the Lebanese naval forces, the Navy Commando’s regiment, the French team, the Ocean Alert vessel and USNS Grapple ships,” said the army command.
http://nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=144528

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-02-07 10:54:18 and read 18329 times.

Excellent news! A step closer to finding out the mystery of this unfortunate incident.

Good work of the recovery teams! My regards to them!

-AEOLUS

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: alwaysontherun
Posted 2010-02-07 11:03:22 and read 18322 times.

Do the FDR and the CVR need to be kept under water for preservation the data until they open them up?

### "I am always on the Run"###

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-07 11:07:40 and read 18354 times.

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 158):
Do the FDR and the CVR need to be kept under water for preservation the data until they open them up?

I wondered the same myself before looking it up  
Quote:
Special care is taken in transporting these devices in order to avoid any (further) damage to the recording medium. In cases of water accidents, recorders are placed in a cooler of water to keep them from drying out.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...dgets/other-gadgets/black-box8.htm

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-02-07 11:10:24 and read 18309 times.

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 158):
Do the FDR and the CVR need to be kept under water for preservation the data until they open them up?

Yes they do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it has to do with preserving the black boxes in the environment they were found to avoid the deformation of the tapes. Something to do with the salt kicking in after removed from water and destroying the tapes because of the salinity.

Could someone complete this? I hope I'm not wrong...

-Aeolus

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-07 11:15:48 and read 18404 times.

Here's the horizontal stabilizer recovered by the Lebanese Navy:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/066CaaR7ao5AW/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eAb1UKb8b6eZ/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0f4igWo9OYdoC/1000x.jpg

The black boxes:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0g9oayAdIcdlf/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06cS3NGgsa4ML/1000x.jpg

Some other press photos:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/07sv3MPcsPfcu/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0etdbcj1Y62HT/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01YpgiY9Tj88j/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ekmdPHd3Z469/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03P7aqogPW3IC/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01UhfUU98PbgI/1000x.jpg

[Edited 2010-02-07 11:18:43]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: FLALEFTY
Posted 2010-02-07 11:16:19 and read 18301 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 153):
The black box has been received at the Beirut Naval Base and will be sent to the BEA 'soon'.

Ramzi - Thanks for the excellent reporting!

I was so concerned by early reports that the recorders might be over 2 km deep. It is a relief that the recorders from this ill-fated flight have been recovered and appear to be in good condition.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-07 12:50:51 and read 18268 times.

Photos from the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) website, the Director General of Civil Aviation, Dr. Hamdi Chaouk, is in the middle of the first photo:

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3462/image1pz.jpg

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8917/image2l.jpg

http://www.lebarmy.gov.lb/article.asp?ln=ar&id=24086

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Kit777
Posted 2010-02-07 13:23:15 and read 18107 times.

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 157):

Hi

My understanding is the reason that the "Black boxes", and sometimes other important parts that may be pertinent to the investigation are submersed in water is to prevent corrosion. As as soon as you remove such an object from the water it will start to corrode, and especially in the case of the FDR/CVR this could hamper data recovery. And with the actual aircraft parts the corrosion could mask problems that could have been the cause of the accident.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Thanks

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: acabgd
Posted 2010-02-07 14:51:09 and read 17982 times.

Looking at all the photos I cannot but say Kudos to all the search & rescue personnel, both from Lebanon and France, as well as all others participating.

The effort seems to have come to fruition, but even the days with extreme bad weather were not waisted. Really great work, hoping to contribute to finding the cause of this accident and making sure it never happens again.

Again, great job guys!

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-07 15:36:26 and read 17926 times.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 159):
preserving the black boxes in the environment they were found to avoid the deformation of the tapes.

Those are solid state recorders which do not use tape. You will only find tape on very old aircraft. Some of the recorders have what is basically a hard drive to record the data. The newest ones are solid state digital recorders with what are military strength memory chips, similar to a large thumb drive.

Quoting Kit777 (Reply 163):
the investigation are submersed in water is to prevent corrosion. As as soon as you remove such an object from the water it will start to corrode,

Despite how they are built and how they are protected within the aircraft, frequently the device is damaged and seals are broken. If the recorder has a broken seal and is under salt water, you want to keep the device in water of the same salinity and approximate temperature.

This is significantly less of an issue with more modern FDR/ CVR devices. But to be safe, the investigative agencies issue blanket instructions for all the military forces, divers, rescue workers engaged in FDR / CVR recovery - maintain them in the environment where they were found. If underwater, keep them under water.

Leave everything else to the experts in the lab.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-02-07 16:26:01 and read 17883 times.

great pics!!! (of a tragic event) feel like I am at the investigaton site.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2010-02-07 16:48:57 and read 17886 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 160):
Here's the horizontal stabilizer recovered by the Lebanese Navy

When looking at the third pic (of the horizontal stabilizer), it seems that the right stabilizer shows clear signs of frontal impact (the leading edge curling up) whereas on the first pic it seems that the left stabilizer does not have that damage. Could that mean the plane impacted the sea at a steep bank angle? It would be in line with spatial disorientation - just a thought.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: N49WA
Posted 2010-02-07 18:03:03 and read 17830 times.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 159):
Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 158):
Do the FDR and the CVR need to be kept under water for preservation the data until they open them up?

FWIW, I once dropped a camera into the ocean. When I called Nikon repair they said to ship the camera to them in a cooler filled with the same sea water that the camera was in. They said to not under any circumstances try to dry it out first. I think it has to do with preservation on the electronics etc.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-08 01:53:30 and read 17626 times.

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 161):
Ramzi - Thanks for the excellent reporting!

My pleasure... join me in thanking BA for the excellent photos.

Quoting acabgd (Reply 165):
Looking at all the photos I cannot but say Kudos to all the search & rescue personnel, both from Lebanon and France, as well as all others participating.

The effort seems to have come to fruition, but even the days with extreme bad weather were not waisted. Really great work, hoping to contribute to finding the cause of this accident and making sure it never happens again.

Again, great job guys!

I strongly second your comment. I was really impressed by their work, efficiency, and organization. And I find it to be great they have achieved these results this quickly in such difficult circumstances. The work was serious, and the Lebanese Army was able to coordinate very efficiently between all parties involved in the search and rescue. Moreover almost no complaint was heard from the families of the victims, a clear indication that the government was able to give them the sympathy and understanding they more than deserve in such a situation.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 166):

Thank you for the clarification  
Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 167):
great pics!!! (of a tragic event) feel like I am at the investigaton site.

  

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 168):

When looking at the third pic (of the horizontal stabilizer), it seems that the right stabilizer shows clear signs of frontal impact (the leading edge curling up) whereas on the first pic it seems that the left stabilizer does not have that damage. Could that mean the plane impacted the sea at a steep bank angle? It would be in line with spatial disorientation - just a thought.

Interesting observation. However I seem to notice damage on both stabilizers. Makes me wonder, maybe the aircraft slammed the water belly down leaning towards the right - hence the greater damage on the right part of the horizontal stabilizer. I'm not sure, but I think even at that distance the lights of Beirut would still be visible, making disorientation much less likely. Also, just a thought.

It seems Ocean Alert was requested by the army to start sonar scanning last night, and although it was expected to leave today it hasn't, choosing to help the Lebanese Army through this aggressive weather.

http://nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=144541

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: alwaysontherun
Posted 2010-02-08 02:20:35 and read 17550 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 158):
I wondered the same myself before looking it up

And here I was, thinking that this was a forum to ask aviation questions.

Quoting Kit777 (Reply 163):

My understanding is the reason that the "Black boxes", and sometimes other important parts that may be pertinent to the investigation are submersed in water is to prevent corrosion. As as soon as you remove such an object from the water it will start to corrode, and especially in the case of the FDR/CVR this could hamper data recovery. And with the actual aircraft parts the corrosion could mask problems that could have been the cause of the accident.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 165):
Those are solid state recorders which do not use tape. You will only find tape on very old aircraft. Some of the recorders have what is basically a hard drive to record the data. The newest ones are solid state digital recorders with what are military strength memory chips, similar to a large thumb drive.
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 165):
Despite how they are built and how they are protected within the aircraft, frequently the device is damaged and seals are broken. If the recorder has a broken seal and is under salt water, you want to keep the device in water of the same salinity and approximate temperature.

This is significantly less of an issue with more modern FDR/ CVR devices. But to be safe, the investigative agencies issue blanket instructions for all the military forces, divers, rescue workers engaged in FDR / CVR recovery - maintain them in the environment where they were found. If underwater, keep them under water.

Leave everything else to the experts in the lab.
Quoting N49WA (Reply 168):
FWIW, I once dropped a camera into the ocean. When I called Nikon repair they said to ship the camera to them in a cooler filled with the same sea water that the camera was in. They said to not under any circumstances try to dry it out first. I think it has to do with preservation on the electronics etc.

Thanks for your excellent replies, people.

This makes me gear up for the re-start of the AF A332 in the Atlantic.
It would be great if we ever retrieve those devices.
Would this success inspire the AF search teams perhaps?

### "I am always on the Run"###

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: A380Heavy
Posted 2010-02-08 02:40:31 and read 17520 times.

Any idea what the 'puncture' to the skin is on the right hand horizontal stabilizer?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-02-08 03:20:30 and read 17516 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 167):
Could that mean the plane impacted the sea at a steep bank angle? It would be in line with spatial disorientation - just a thought.

It is a bit strange to see it that way... the fuselage section isn't there recovered with the stabilizers. The side with the leading edge curling, does have puncture marks too. Could it hit the water front and that side first? If so, could go and in hand with the winglet picture.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-02-08 04:51:04 and read 17382 times.

One of the recorders seems pretty damaged to me (not the orange one, the other). I hope they still can exploit it.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-08 06:06:04 and read 17256 times.

I see only one recorder in the photos above, and it looks from the labels to be the FDR not the CVR.

The other object in the cooler with water around it looks like two connected assemblies with an actuator or possibly a mount attached. I've never heard of a recorder being recovered intact if it was damaged enough to remove the orange protective case.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm

There are a lot of special parts from the plane the investigators will want shipped to the lab kept preserved in water. Most of the instrumentation will hopefully be kept wet when shipped to the lab.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-02-08 07:08:20 and read 17144 times.

I thought it could have been something else, it looked like some kind of motor or pump, but they were only talking about recorders, and plural, so I concluded that it was a damaged recorder.

Now remembering that information has been wrong more often than not until now (plane 50m deep, then 1300m, then 100m, then 45m, plane actually located several days after announcement it had been, etc.), you are most certainly right and it is not a recorder.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-02-08 08:01:52 and read 17021 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 169):
My pleasure... join me in thanking BA for the excellent photos.

Indeed. BA and Ramzi - thank you for all the great reporting and sharing of up-to-date datapoints. You guys were the eyes and hears on the ground for the rest of us. Many thanks.

Looks like it is just the FDR that was recovered. Here is the latest update from ET: http://www.ethiopianairlines.com/en/news/pressreleases.aspx?hl=%20159

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-02-08 08:05:39 and read 17098 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 169):
t seems Ocean Alert was requested by the army to start sonar scanning last night, and although it was expected to leave today it hasn't, choosing to help the Lebanese Army through this aggressive weather.


US Grapple is patrolling around some miles west of the position where Ocean Alert was positioned for quite some time earlier. Is it searching outside Lebanese water and for what?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-08 09:39:15 and read 17017 times.

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 171):

And here I was, thinking that this was a forum to ask aviation questions.

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I was simply noting that the information I am providing was from a source, not my personal knowledge  
Quoting Aesma (Reply 174):
One of the recorders seems pretty damaged to me (not the orange one, the other). I hope they still can exploit it.
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 175):
I see only one recorder in the photos above, and it looks from the labels to be the FDR not the CVR.

Correct. The Minister of Transportation clarified that what has been found is the FDR and the CVR has been located and is yet to be retrieved. The other object seems to be something required for the investigation as RFields5421 indicated, this must have confused the media a little leading them to report that both black boxes were found.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 176):
Now remembering that information has been wrong more often than not until now (plane 50m deep, then 1300m, then 100m, then 45m, plane actually located several days after announcement it had been, etc.), you are most certainly right and it is not a recorder.

Information has not been wrong/wrongly reported. When we heard 50m, the search was at 50m, when we heard 1300, it was at 1300. After a while of searching the boxes and a number of bodies were found at a depth of less than 45m. What you stated is the path of the search and rescue operation rather than wrong information. But yes, as we've achieved, it is not the CVR. Maybe someone can fill us in on what this object may actually be?

Quoting JONukl (Reply 178):
US Grapple is patrolling around some miles west of the position where Ocean Alert was positioned for quite some time earlier. Is it searching outside Lebanese water and for what?

There is no information about this. Perhaps it is following a certain radius to see if any wreckage has been washed away recently. Or maybe certain discoveries by the army's diving unit at the current location are indicating a certain directionality. Since Ocean Alert was sonar scanning, it may have also discovered something the Grapple has gone to confirm.

More bodies have been found today but no number was provided. It seems, sadly, that a number of them have been torn apart and we know for a fact that none are identifiable, meaning they are pretty badly damaged which is understandable. They have been in the water for long enough. Less than an hour ago operations were halted due to further agitation in the weather conditions. Let's hope the storm passes soon and they can get working again.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-02-08 10:09:05 and read 16919 times.

I've heard it said on a.net that a crash into water is like hitting concrete (surface tension?). If so, then it's surprising the DFDR survived the impact. With power on, the aircraft could have been traveling well above terminal velocity.

Now remains the sad part of the recovery, the bodies...RIP.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-02-08 10:21:27 and read 16897 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 178):
Information has not been wrong/wrongly reported. When we heard 50m, the search was at 50m, when we heard 1300, it was at 1300. After a while of searching the boxes and a number of bodies were found at a depth of less than 45m. What you stated is the path of the search and rescue operation rather than wrong information. But yes, as we've achieved, it is not the CVR. Maybe someone can fill us in on what this object may actually be?

I disagree, at several points it was clearly stated that the plane was located when it was not. In fact you just have to look at your own reply #2 on this very thread.

Quoting comorin (Reply 179):
I've heard it said on a.net that a crash into water is like hitting concrete (surface tension?). If so, then it's surprising the DFDR survived the impact. With power on, the aircraft could have been traveling well above terminal velocity.

It's a manner of speaking, meaning it's deadly. It cannot be harder than a soft terrain.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: alwaysontherun
Posted 2010-02-08 10:35:41 and read 16867 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 178):
I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I was simply noting that the information I am providing was from a source, not my personal knowledge

Sorry my friend, I took that the wrong way!
My apologies, and a great job you do, reporting all this.
Main stream media seem to have forgotten about the crash, well I have not and I want to get to the "bottom" of this, no pun intended. First this one, then let "us" crack the AF A332 mystery.

Cheers,

### "I am always on the Run"###

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-09 00:28:15 and read 16483 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 180):
I disagree, at several points it was clearly stated that the plane was located when it was not. In fact you just have to look at your own reply #2 on this very thread.

You're right. But still, they had suspected finding wreckage at several locations. This time wreckage was retrieved, and so were bodies which means the usual doubt can be dropped I'd say. Speaking of which, the army's divers are retrieving bodies while the USRS Grabble works on the second black box. It seems now that the first box has been found the army has prioritized retrieving the victim's bodies. No mention of the Ocean Alert today.

Quoting alwaysontherun (Reply 181):
Sorry my friend, I took that the wrong way!
My apologies, and a great job you do, reporting all this.
Main stream media seem to have forgotten about the crash, well I have not and I want to get to the "bottom" of this, no pun intended. First this one, then let "us" crack the AF A332 mystery.

No worries   Hopefully we will have the answers, and I have my fingers crossed for the AF incident as well.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Amexair
Posted 2010-02-09 10:24:16 and read 16101 times.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/6...behind-ethiopian-jet-crash-source/


A source familiar with the investigation into the accident said Tuesday that pilot error caused the crash of flight 409. Why are they rushing into conclusions? Has the black box even been analysed yet? I don't understand why officials are rushing to point out that it was a pilot error. I'm not saying it is not possible but it should be confirmed by the French officials before anything is said. Its making it seem as if there is something fishy going on or maybe even a cover up.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-02-09 10:45:43 and read 16014 times.

Quoting Amexair (Reply 183):
A source familiar with the investigation into the accident said Tuesday that pilot error caused the crash of flight 409.

It most likely is... BUT... what kind of pilot error was it? Just stopping at "pilot error" is nothing but despicable, it's like "the dead can't talk, so let's blame them." Spatial disorientation? CRM failure? Someone gone mad? Task saturation? What? Which?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-09 10:53:56 and read 16036 times.

Quoting Amexair (Reply 183):
Why are they rushing into conclusions?

They've already begun analyzing the black box supposedly.

"The investigation team has reached an early conclusion that it was pilot error, based on the information from the black box," the source told Reuters.

Details should begin to unfold as they continue analyzing the black box.

[Edited 2010-02-09 10:56:28]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Raffik
Posted 2010-02-09 12:09:46 and read 15848 times.

It's been very sad to hear of this crash in Beirut. The Lebanese civil aviation authority are doing a fantastic job considering the weather conditions along the Lebanese coast.

Does anybody know how the crash has affected ET's operations? I notice that the flight continues to operate,
but with such a small fleet, how has the loss of a 737-800 affected ET's schedule? Have other routes taken a
cut?

They should be able to identify the passengers by dental records and DNA hopefully.
My father used to work in body recovery in Beirut in the 1960s when

It made me remember the Malev crash in 1975 (not that I was around then, but I remember reading about it).
A T154 crashed trying to land South of Beirut Airport.. did they recover the bodies then?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-09 12:17:45 and read 15847 times.

Quoting Amexair (Reply 183):
I don't understand why officials are rushing to point out that it was a pilot error.

"A source familiar with the investigation" could mean anything, including someone who overheard someone who overheard an investigator saying something about it looking like "there might have been some pilot error" and reporting it as a done deal. If officials were "rushing to point out" that it was pilot error then they'd say so instead of getting "a source familiar with the investigation" to leak it to the media.

Again, each new media report should be treated as part of the whole picture, not as the final conclusion. This happens almost every time there's an accident.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-02-09 13:28:46 and read 15713 times.

The release is being put out by Reuters, a 'gold standard' news organization. Granted, it's jumping the gun, but I wouldn't dismiss the report or unnamed 'source'.

At the very least it's good to know that the FDR is being analysed with haste.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-09 14:17:58 and read 15635 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 188):
it's jumping the gun, but I wouldn't dismiss the report or unnamed 'source'.

I'm not "dismissing" it. I'm merely pointing out that it does not mean "officials are rushing to point out that it was pilot error". It does not preclude the possibility that "officials" are saying to each other "what we've seen so far points to pilot error but we might find something that contributed or something that points to something else so we'll keep looking".

In any case, as Mandala499 says, they can't simply decide it was pilot error and leave it at that. They would have to examine the details of what the error was, why it happened and possibly make recommendations to reduce the chances of it happening again.

[Edited 2010-02-09 14:20:49]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: AVLNative
Posted 2010-02-09 14:38:57 and read 15626 times.

Ethiopian plane 'exploded' after take-off: Lebanon minister

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...ebanon+minister/2541043/story.html

BEIRUT - An Ethiopian jet which crashed off Lebanon's coast last month exploded after take-off, Lebanon's health minister said on Tuesday in the first such official comment since the mysterious crash.

Remarks by Jawad Khalifeh could not be immediately confirmed by other officials in Beirut and came as Ethiopian Airlines said one of the plane's black boxes has been sent to France for analysis.

"The plane exploded during flight and the cabin, as well as the bodies of those on board were dispersed into the sea, in different locations," Khalifeh said to explain why some corpses were found dismembered.

"The first bodies which have been retrieved following the crash were intact but after that, we began to find body pieces or mutilated corpses," he told reporters.

Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi refused to comment on the reported explosion. "I have no information about this," he told AFP.

Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737-800 plunged into the Mediterranean before dawn on January 25, just minutes after take-off from Beirut airport during a storm.

It was bound for Addis Ababa with 83 passengers and seven crew on board. No survivors were found and searchers have been struggling to recover bodies as most victims were believed to be still strapped to their seats.

There have been conflicting reports as to whether the jet exploded while airborne or after it hit the water, and officials have said there will be no answers until the data from the black boxes is analysed.

Lebanon has ruled out sabotage, blaming the bad weather for the tragedy, and officials have said the captain was instructed by the control tower to change to a certain heading but then the aircraft took a different course.

Experts have told AFP that the stormy weather may not have been the only reason for the crash, and that the aircraft may have had engine or hydraulics problems.

Witnesses have said they saw a ball of fire as the plane plunged into the sea and a defence ministry official said on the day of the tragedy that the plane broke into four pieces before crashing in the Mediterranean.

Lebanese army divers retrieved one of the plane's two black boxes on Sunday and Ethiopian Airlines said it has been sent to France for analysis.

"We cannot say when we'll have news because it is a process and there is an investigation," spokeswoman Wogayehu Terefe told AFP in Addis Ababa.

Wogayehu said more bodies had been retrieved but said they were still waiting for an exact figure. Twenty three bodies had been found by Sunday.

The probe into the mysterious crash is being carried out by a Lebanese commission with support from a French body responsible for technical investigations of air accidents.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-09 14:55:56 and read 15575 times.

I'm taken by surprise. Reading various news reports I've come to several conclusions. It seems a minister used the term 'explosion' not necessarily meaning it exploded mid air, and even if so, not referring to a bomb. Aridi, which is the minister we should be listening to claims no such thing. Concerning this, I dismiss this thought until further notice.

Correct that Reuters isn't a source to be dismissed. But I stand with David L. This may be true or not, but until an official announcement is made I wouldn't let that scenario grow on me too much. We should have some more facts soon.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2010-02-09 15:00:23 and read 15563 times.

Watching these politicians rush out with asinine, uninformed statements, presumably to get themselves in front of a camera or to advance a political agenda, it just warms my heart that we have the NTSB here in the US, and that some other countries have agencies that operate in a similar setting.

Of course, the NTSB learned its lesson from the AA ORD crash, where the then-chairman stood in front of a podium holding a piece of evidence that later was shown to have zero to do with the cause of the accident. They now know to shut up until the formal investigation is complete. Of course, they leak like a seive, but at least their leaks are more-informed than the crap we are seeing from Lebanese and Ethiopian "sources".

And, of course, the label of "mechanical failure" or "pilot error" is far too simplistic to be useful in the grownup world where crash investigations yield solutions that help prevent further accidents. Have a look at this video, and count how many procedures you see being trained into these pilots that have come as learning from past incidents. Ask yourself how many lesser-trained pilots could do what these guys did to put that (simulated) aircraft on the ground in one piece in a matter of seconds. Then ask yourself who you would rather fly with.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-09 15:06:53 and read 15540 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 191):
I'm taken by surprise.

You're not the only one!

Quoting ramzi (Reply 191):
Aridi, which is the minister we should be listening to claims no such thing.

That's what I was wondering - are we to pay more attention to the Health Minister or the Transport Minister? Forgive me for being a little sceptical until there's some confirmation.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-09 15:08:00 and read 15548 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 192):
but at least their leaks are more-informed than the crap we are seeing from Lebanese and Ethiopian "sources".

What are you referring to? Because as it seems the quote on the explosion is a misunderstanding I don't see any crap from anywhere. I think the term explosion is a very ordinary one in the case of a crash. We shouldn't be surprised to hear it. But of course the media gropes the very term and decides it means the plane exploded before hitting the water and possibly due to a bomb. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this kind of thing regularly happens in any situation concerning any incident in any country. The media is the media, whether in Ethiopia, Lebanon, or the USA.

On another note, the pilot error information is not related to any Lebanese or Ethiopian source whatsoever. It comes straight from Reuters.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-09 15:52:22 and read 15511 times.

Whether Health Minister Mohammad Jawad Khalifeh misspoke or was misquoted by the media, somebody screwed up big time with the "explosion" allegation!

Either way, the Health Minister is not one to quote in regards to what happened to the aircraft.

Some news:

Plane investigation commission members return from Paris

February 9, 2010

The National News Agency (NNA) reported on Tuesday that three members of the investigative commission into last month’s Ethiopian airliner crash returned to Beirut from Paris on Tuesday at 4:30 p.m.

Director General of Civil Aviation Hamdi Chawq, expert pilot Mohammad Aziz, and US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) senior investigator Dennis Jones had left on Sunday with the plane’s black box that is to be analyzed in France.


http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=145092

http://www.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/large_652x488_scaled/photos/243794.jpg

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2010-02-09 16:00:09 and read 15469 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 192):
Of course, the NTSB learned its lesson from the AA ORD crash, where the then-chairman stood in front of a podium holding a piece of evidence that later was shown to have zero to do with the cause of the accident. They now know to shut up until the formal investigation is complete.

Huh? The NTSB conducts open investigations - that's why their results are so difficult for the conspiracy nuts to question. That often means presenting evidence in investigations to the public that ends up leading nowhere. Like, for example, the witness testimony about missiles in the TWA800 investigation. Or the "bomb residue" on the seats in the same investigation. The NTSB's job is to collect all the evidence and formulate a picture of what happened. Along the way, they present basically all of the evidence to the public, whether or not it ends up being relevant. It's all relevant in that it all produces leads for them to follow.

As I recall, the bolt shown by the NTSB in the AA 191 investigation didn't end up having "zero" to do with the cause of the crash, it just wasn't the entire picture.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 192):
And, of course, the label of "mechanical failure" or "pilot error" is far too simplistic to be useful in the grownup world where crash investigations yield solutions that help prevent further accidents.

The NTSB uses both of those phrases repeatedly throughout its accident reports.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-09 18:41:13 and read 15350 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 195):
Director General of Civil Aviation Hamdi Chawq, expert pilot Mohammad Aziz, and US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) senior investigator Dennis Jones had left on Sunday with the plane's black box that is to be analyzed in France.

I'm glad to see that NTSB personnel is closely involved.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-02-09 18:42:37 and read 15359 times.

To me, what is most disconcerting is the fact that the official investigation team has not put out a press release refuting the leaked information or at least denouncing the leak. Some of the more sensationalist media outlets in particular want to be the first ones out with the initial reports of the investigation. Granted, Reuters is considered to be a reliable news agency, which adds credibility (with merit or not) to the news item. Again, most prudent to wait and see before jumping the gun to grab attention.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-09 18:46:20 and read 15358 times.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 197):
I'm glad to see that NTSB personnel is closely involved.

They normally do get involved. It is after all an American-built aircraft.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-02-09 19:56:14 and read 15280 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 192):
Watching these politicians rush out with asinine, uninformed statements, presumably to get themselves in front of a camera or to advance a political agenda, it just warms my heart that we have the NTSB here in the US,

So you think having the NTSB stops U.S. politicians from "rushing out with asinine, uninformed statements"?

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 192):
their leaks are more-informed than the crap we are seeing from Lebanese and Ethiopian "sources".

You're comparing apples and oranges and coming up with sheep. The "crap" you refer to is not coming from the Lebanese or Ethiopian equivalent of the NTSB, but from politicians - no better or worse than the statements that come from U.S. politicians after similar incidents.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-09 21:30:58 and read 15234 times.

Most of the poor information that's been reported has been due to the media's incompetence. For example, a few days after the tragedy when Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi stated that the plane veered a different direction from what was instructed by air traffic control, local media sources automatically said the pilot didn't follow the instructions of the ATC and thus implied the pilot was at fault. The next day Aridi stressed that it's premature to blame the pilot and urged the media to not spread such speculation.

The media has also spread information that did not have official confirmation which often ended up being false. For example, last week it reported that the Lebanese Navy had found the plane and recovered part of it which turned out to be entirely false. The Lebanese Armed Forces Directorate General condemned media sources that spread this unverified information.

Everything from incorrect information to unconfirmed information to wild speculation has been spread by the local media. It's been very bad.

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=143573

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-10 02:59:51 and read 15136 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 199):
They normally do get involved. It is after all an American-built aircraft.

  

The latest is that PM Hariri has called a meeting about the crash which is taking place now. It was announced the French ambassador's wife has been identified. May she rest in peace.

Question: Now that the investigative team is back, does this mean the FDR has been studied? That fast? If so, shouldn't some kind of press release have been made?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-10 04:28:00 and read 15058 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 195):
Whether Health Minister Mohammad Jawad Khalifeh misspoke or was misquoted by the media, somebody screwed up big time with the "explosion" allegation!

He does seem to be saying that the aircraft broke up in the air, one way or another. However, to a certain extent, it seems to contradict the general direction the earlier information was going.

Other major news organisations don't seem to have felt the need to update their versions with the alleged words of the Health Minister. Perhaps they're also sceptical and are waiting for confirmation.

Quoting BA (Reply 195):
Either way, the Health Minister is not one to quote in regards to what happened to the aircraft.

Just for the record, my question about who to pay more attention to was mostly rhetorical.
Quoting BA (Reply 201):
Most of the poor information that's been reported has been due to the media's incompetence.
  ... made worse by some treating every such report as an official technical finding.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: dkny
Posted 2010-02-10 05:33:51 and read 14956 times.

"The investigation is still in its early stage and the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) and the aircraft wreckage are not yet retrieved for analysis, it is therefore, too early to conclude the cause of the accident. Ethiopian Airlines does not rule out all possible causes including the possibility of sabotage until the final outcome of the investigation is known."

http://www.ethiopianairlines.com/en/news/pressreleases.aspx?hl=%20160

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2010-02-10 05:46:14 and read 14903 times.

To me it all still seems a bit fishy. All this (mis)information seems to be a little odd. Can't pinpoint this feeling though.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-10 06:29:30 and read 14852 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 202):
Question: Now that the investigative team is back, does this mean the FDR has been studied? That fast? If so, shouldn't some kind of press release have been made?

The official investigative team would be present when the FDR is opened. They need to witness the opening and the data download. This was a pretty new model FDR, so they would have an approximate readout of the basic parameters within a couple hours.

Once that data is produced, there is no 'job' for the investigative team leaders at the lab. They go back to the scene and supervise the physical and medical evidence.

Those team leaders will not be the people who do a detailed analysis of what the FDR data actually means. That will be by the 'geeks' of the technical agency. Who will then produce reports which the leadership team will review. Those FDR reports will be a few weeks away.

I don't remember investigations issuing a press release that the FDR data was readable. I only remember press releases if the FDR data is unreadable. One piece of advice from the NTSB experience, and probably from BEAs experience is not to do press releases about initial impressions of FDR data. Wait for the detailed analysis.

The press will sensationalize the initial FDR data as final and make this an even bigger media circus.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-10 06:33:55 and read 14859 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 206):

Thanks for the info  

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-10 06:40:57 and read 14832 times.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 205):
All this (mis)information seems to be a little odd

Not to me or anyone who has followed the developments after other accidents, especially where the original quotes have been translated from another language at least once, somtimes twice.

If previous incidents are anything to go by, it's quite likely that the "misinformation" has come from non-technical government officials trying to convert technical details into layman's terms which are then tranlated by non-technical translators and re-interpreted by non-technical journalists who are looking for a sensational story. Then some readers take it all as "official information".

It happens all the time.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-10 06:43:35 and read 14851 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 206):
The press will sensationalize the initial FDR data as final and make this an even bigger media circus.

   And thanks for your insight in this area.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: dkny
Posted 2010-02-10 06:48:09 and read 14874 times.

Looks like they found the cockpit voice recorder

"A senior Lebanese security official says search teams have retrieved the second black box belonging to the Ethiopian Airlines jet that crashed into the Mediterranean Sea last month."


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...n59t-PG4-xCwq2jTks51-Yr6QD9DPBL703

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-02-10 06:49:28 and read 14880 times.

I wonder what the Minister of Agriculture has to say on the matter   

Leaks happen everywhere and in most cases, can be a good tool to inform the general public. What I don't understand is why the group in charge (who is that anyways, the Lebanese politicians, the Lebanese civil aviation authorities, the French investigators?) should have a better PR campaign to keep the public abreast of developments in the investigation and not leave it to the Health minister to be the spokesperson.

ET is crying foul, and rightfully so, as it is being painted as the culprit in this accident (rightfully or wrongfully - but w/o official report backed by empirical data, all we can do is rely on leaked and misinterpreted/mistranslated/mispoken opinions). It's a shame.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-10 07:07:44 and read 14813 times.

Quote:
Public Works and Transportation Minister Aridi told NOW on Wednesday that search teams found the second black box of the Ethiopian plane that crashed in January as well as additional victims’ bodies.

Only DNA testing can identify the remains, he added.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-10 08:54:17 and read 14712 times.

I realize there may be cultural issues involved, but in today's world, DNA evidence should always be used to identify victims of mass casuality events if at all possible.

Shortly before I left Beirut in November 1983, we had shipped out 274 transfer cases of human remains. The final casualty toll was 241 US servicemen (several of whom passed away in hospitals after the bombing), 1 Lebanese citizen and 1 other person - the homicide bomber. I know some remains of the nice Lebanese man who ran the little store in the BLT 1/8 HQ were identified and returned to his family for burial.

I also understand that some of the families of the US servicemen never received identifiable remains for burial.

The technology of identification has advanced tremendously since that time.

An airliner impact with water or the ground is going to produce similar damage to the remains.

It did when I was at the C-5 crash site near Saigon, and other military crash sites which I've seen, participated in recovery of victims remains.

The best technology possible needs to be used to make sure the families receive their loved ones.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3
Username: Raffik
Posted 2010-02-10 09:20:48 and read 14659 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 213):
I realize there may be cultural issues involved, but in today's world, DNA evidence should always be used

Nobody is refuting this. DNA testing will be used to identify the remains, because, as you have read,
the bodies cannot be visually identified due to crash trauma and deterioration in the sea. There is no cultural ban on the use of DNA sampling in Lebanon...

[Edited 2010-02-10 09:39:12]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-02-10 09:24:05 and read 14641 times.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 214):
this topic is about the ET crash, not what happened during the
Lebanese civil war. If you have a chip on your shoulder, use the non av forum

Where's that coming from. RFields5421 was addressing identification of the victims of mass-casualty events, which is perfectly on-topic.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-10 09:30:35 and read 14656 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 215):
RFields5421 was addressing identification of the victims of mass-casualty events, which is perfectly on-topic.

   As far as I can see, he was citing relevant, personal experience which, by coincidence, involved the same city.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-10 11:17:37 and read 14493 times.

I have nothing but respect for the people of Lebanon, of all religions. I don't blame a people or a religion for the actions of individuals.

It is extremely unfortunate what happens to people when a disaster strikes, be it a bomb, an earthquake, a fire or a plane crash. Also, I do not know the culture of all the victims of this crash. I do understand that many cultures have different views on the subject of the treatment of human remains. That does not make them wrong, or my beliefs right. Different is just different - that is all. Not right or wrong.

Many people on this forum have demonstrated in previous plane crash threads a lack of knowledge of what actually happens, or rather possibly a desire to not know details. I really wish I did not know as much as I do from experience.

While many of the victims of this crash were Lebanese, there were also several from other countries, other belief systems. That is all I was saying.

ramzi and BA have provided those of us interested in this crash excellent information.

So far this seems to be a very well organized and well directed search and investigation.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-02-10 11:24:24 and read 14474 times.

Quoting dkny (Reply 210):
"A senior Lebanese security official says search teams have retrieved the second black box belonging to the Ethiopian Airlines jet that crashed into the Mediterranean Sea last month."

I can't find the link right now, but I read that only part of the CVR was found ... which is extremely bad news; even if they do find the second part, it may be very difficult to extract the data, if it possible at all. However, I know that the NTSB has a very good record in recovering voice data, so they may be called upon to help (they will be participating in the investigation, as representatives of the state of manufacture).

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-10 11:33:50 and read 14495 times.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 211):
Leaks happen everywhere and in most cases, can be a good tool to inform the general public. What I don't understand is why the group in charge (who is that anyways, the Lebanese politicians, the Lebanese civil aviation authorities, the French investigators?) should have a better PR campaign to keep the public abreast of developments in the investigation and not leave it to the Health minister to be the spokesperson.

The Health Minister was answering questions about the state of the human bodies recovered and since some of them were charred, he spoke too much and said that an explosion of some kind must have occurred. Basically, he got carried away whether intentionally or unintentionally.

I do wish we heard more information from the investigation team itself. They are relaying information to Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi and Information Minister Tarek Mitri, who then hold press conferences and share the information with the media. Perhaps this was the arrangement agreed upon.

Here's the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), although the "crucial piece" containing the data separated from it and drivers are still looking for it.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02JD1iSgqJdOT/1000x.jpg

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-02-10 11:37:48 and read 14475 times.

Here's the article from Flight International:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...from-ethiopian-737-crash-site.html

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-10 13:15:20 and read 14354 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 217):
I do understand that many cultures have different views on the subject of the treatment of human remains. That does not make them wrong, or my beliefs right. Different is just different - that is all. Not right or wrong.

Respect for the dead is not a cultural thing...
 

I did not like how the retrieval of remains was reported in Lebanese media, but what matter the most to me now, is a proper investigation. That is the best way of paying homage to the victims.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 217):
So far this seems to be a very well organized and well directed search and investigation.

Fingers crossed...!

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-10 13:46:48 and read 14233 times.

It seems that the doomed aircraft was in service with Ryanair up to 2009.
http://www.airfleets.net/flightlog/i...esult&app=b737ng&msn=29935

[Edited 2010-02-10 13:56:33]

[Edited 2010-02-10 13:57:22]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-02-10 13:59:10 and read 14194 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 219):
Here's the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), although the "crucial piece" containing the data separated from it and drivers are still looking for it.

But what "crucial piece" are we talking about? Is it where it records everrything meaning the hard disk?

Could it have separated because of a cockpit-first impact making it possible that it damaged the box?

-Aeolus

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-10 14:08:48 and read 14170 times.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 223):
But what "crucial piece" are we talking about? Is it where it records everrything meaning the hard disk?

As far as I know, the cylindrical part that holds the recorded data. Technically, it is not a hard disk but a solid state memory device, but yes, it fills that function.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 223):
Could it have separated because of a cockpit-first impact making it possible that it damaged the box?

I guess if it separated then it may be damaged. There is also always a suspicion of the black boxes being concealed on purpose, to cover a terrorist act. But I dont want to go there right now.
It astonishes me that the CVR would be damaged or detached, since it seems to survive the nastiest crashes, and I thought it would be well designed in that aspect.

[Edited 2010-02-10 14:27:15]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: iakobos
Posted 2010-02-10 14:15:20 and read 14211 times.

Evidence has reached debkafile's counter-terror sources that the Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737-800 which crashed after takeoff from Beirut on January 25, killing all 92 aboard, was blown up in mid-air.
This was an al-Qaeda operation timed for one month to the day after its failed attempt to destroy an American Northwest airliner bound for Detroit.
It is becoming clear that either a bomb was planted on the Ethiopian flight with a timer or a passenger acted as suicide bomber.
Western security agencies in the Middle East involved in combating al Qaeda believe that its planners picked on the Ethiopian flight for more than one reason apart from the date: They had been tipped off that a group of French undercover agents, including Maria Sanchez Pietton, wife of the French ambassador to Beirut, and top Hizballah operatives, including secretary general Hassan Nasrallah, would be aboard.
Mme Pietton lost her life in the crash, while the Hizballah travelers were saved by switching to another flight at the last minute.
The first bodies recovered from the Mediterranean off the Lebanese town of Naama showed all the hallmarks of explosion victims: They were found strapped to their seats with their heads, hands and feet blown off and scattered, typical effects of an explosive blast.
Eye-witnesses at the time heard a loud explosion and saw the plane enveloped in a ball of fire as it gained altitude after takeoff from Beirut international airport.
Both France and Hizballah have denied they were targets.

Lebanese officials, led by prime minister Saad Hariri, have spent two weeks trying to hide the fact that the Ethiopian airline disaster was caused by terror. But Lebanese health minister Jawad Khalifeh gave the game away by a slip of the tongue Tuesday, Feb. 9: “The plane exploded during flight and the cabin, as well as the bodies of those on board, were dispersed into the sea, in different locations,” he said, trying to explain why some of the corpses were found dismembered.
He then tried to correct himself by saying he "didn't mean a military explosion."

More confirmation of a terrorist hand behind the attack is found in the deep involvement of US intelligence, including the FBI, in the investigation of the disaster from the first moment. The US survey ship Ocean Alert was dispatched to the area of the crash and dropped a miniature submarine into the depths to retrieve fragments of the airliner from the seabed.
A US intelligence and naval headquarters was set up at Beirut harbor to coordinate the salvage of the plane from the sea. Treating the crash as terror-related, Washington ordered the plane to be reconstructed from recovered fragments to establish the site of the explosion and its cause.

US officials are also shy of discussing the case in public and admitting the crash was caused by an act of terror. It took place on January 25, shortly after President Barack Obama said “Al-Qaeda has been weakened." In an address to the American people to calm their anxieties after the Nigerian would-be bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab had failed to detonate explosives carried in his underwear.
Al Qaeda's success in blowing a civilian airliner out of the sky over the Middle East proved the opposite. It therefore became the subject of a comprehensive cover-up, joined by France. Before the black box, recovered Tuesday, had even been examined, French sources announced that human error by the pilot was the cause of the Ethiopian airliner crash.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-02-10 14:44:23 and read 14125 times.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):

Wait a minute... hadn't they discarded the terrorist attack theory already or was it just a temporary dismissal?
This is huge news! I hope that with the CVR and FDR recovery this will be confirmed or denied. Let's hope that the guilty are charged and sentenced if this is true!

Quoting rolfen (Reply 224):
As far as I know, the cylindrical part that holds the recorded data. Technically, it is not a hard disk but a solid state memory device, but yes, it fills that function.

Ok, thanks.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 224):
since it seems to survive the nastiest crashes, and I thought it would be well designed in that aspect.

Well you have to consider that if the aircraft was traveling at around 220kts at its cruise altitude at that moment of 9,000ft, and according to the new information, the explosion made it detach (say it was between the cockpit and the wingbox) then it would be traveling extremely fast and therefore an impact so great that it would damage and destroy bodies, metal and composites. I imagine it might have been a nose-first impact.

-Aeolus

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-10 14:49:46 and read 14248 times.

RE the CVR - On this page is a picture of what the complete unit looks like

http://www.honeywell.com/sites/porta...E-334F-5E66-1CB6EA4AA463&sel=1

This is approximately how they look inside

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...dgets/other-gadgets/black-box6.htm

The image is of an L3 model, but the Honeywell model has the same basic components. You will notice that the memory unit is bolted on to the electronics modules. And the memory unit has the pinger attached.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-10 14:53:45 and read 14234 times.

I suggest you site a source asap.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):
They had been tipped off that a group of French undercover agents, including Maria Sanchez Pietton, wife of the French ambassador to Beirut, and top Hizballah operatives, including secretary general Hassan Nasrallah, would be aboard.

That is not possible. If whoever wrote this article knew what he was talking about he would know how far fetched Nasrallah's presence on that flight is.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):
Mme Pietton lost her life in the crash, while the Hizballah travelers were saved by switching to another flight at the last minute.

There is no actual account of there ever being Hezbollah travelers. Simply a politically based rumor.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):
The first bodies recovered from the Mediterranean off the Lebanese town of Naama showed all the hallmarks of explosion victims: They were found strapped to their seats with their heads, hands and feet blown off and scattered, typical effects of an explosive blast.

This is not true. The first bodies were found intact, and the injuries were to the head and neck indicating flying out of their seat upon impact. I believe the medical examiners and the families of the victims can strongly and confidently confirm this.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):
Eye-witnesses at the time heard a loud explosion and saw the plane enveloped in a ball of fire as it gained altitude after takeoff from Beirut international airport.

That was one witness who supposedly saw a fireball. If there had been an explosion, easily half of the residents of the nearby areas would have been awoken.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):
Lebanese officials, led by prime minister Saad Hariri, have spent two weeks trying to hide the fact that the Ethiopian airline disaster was caused by terror.

I supposed the BEA, NTSB, US officials, French officials, and Ethiopian officials are in on this? Wow, one hell of a conspiracy that must have been.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):
A US intelligence and naval headquarters was set up at Beirut harbor to coordinate the salvage of the plane from the sea. Treating the crash as terror-related, Washington ordered the plane to be reconstructed from recovered fragments to establish the site of the explosion and its cause.

Let me give you facts. The first responders were Lebanese. There was no American presence until several hours after the explosion. The US Navy offered the help of its nearby fleet, and the Lebanese Military accepted on condition of following orders from the task force set up to deal with the disaster. And this was confirmed day after day.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):
French sources announced that human error by the pilot was the cause of the Ethiopian airliner crash.

Reuters announced that there seems to be a primary fault on the pilot. AFTER the FDR was obviously recovered and studied. You can browse back for picture provided by BA at various parts of the thread.

I am really curious as to your source of information. I don't know why in the wolrd Al-Qaeda would target this flight. I don't know why they would suddenly be interested in the French passengers (albeit one is the ambassador's wife) or in a location so close to Lebanon. I gather that Al-Qaeda is held responsible for the events of 9/11. Wouldn't you say this is a little off their MO if I may put it that way?

Right now I think its a little silly to even have bothered responding. You can look back at real life photos. Unfortunately I can't provide re-runs of live news coverage, but there were clear sightings of complete body bags filled with a complete human body on the first day. Videos of the recovery operations were run again and again on every news channel, photos were published in all the daily newspapers. I assure you, there is no cover up here.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-10 14:58:46 and read 14211 times.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 226):
hadn't they discarded the terrorist attack theory already or was it just a temporary dismissal?

There has been discussion concerning this, but Minister Aridi re-confirmed that foul play was ruled out from the early days of the recovery operation. There is no history of hiding violence in Lebanon, so I believe them when they say this was not and act of violence. Hopefully, I am not mistaken.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-02-10 15:26:45 and read 14174 times.

First of all, thanks for ramzi, BA, RFields5421 for their contribution and for keeping this thread in the realm of sanity.
A lot of progress has been made so far by the investigation team. There is no doubt that the FDR read-out is bringing a lot to the different possible scenariii and as far as I'm concerned, The CVR won't be that necessary.
I hope that soon the investigators are going to release an accurate analysis of the accident, and just a little bit of patience is required.
In the mean time,let's do away with those terrorist bombing / conspiracy theories. They have ,AFAIK absolutely no basis.
I could go on on the examination of the complete (almost) tailplane assembly and what we could derive from its observation, but I think the report will be there very soon.
Otherwise, we'll keep on theporizing upon the debris examination. It had helped a lot on previous accidents.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: kiwiandrew
Posted 2010-02-10 15:35:37 and read 14169 times.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 223):

But what "crucial piece" are we talking about? Is it where it records everrything meaning the hard disk?

Could it have separated because of a cockpit-first impact making it possible that it damaged the box?

If I recall correctly the "memory module" from the GOL crash also separated on impact - it was quite some time before it was recovered . If the same thing has happened here it does seem to raise some concern about the design ( assuming that it is the same model ) - the memory module on its own is quite small and difficult to locate so if it has separated ( yes , I admit that I am speculating ) in two separate crashes this , to me , is quite worrying .

Just found some info re the above - admittedly from wikipedia but I believe that it is more or less correct in spite of that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Tra...1907#Search_and_recovery_operation

....The Flight Data Recorder and a non-data part of the Cockpit Voice Recorder from the Boeing 737 were found on October 2, 2006 and handed over to the investigators, who sent them to the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) in Gatineau, Quebec, Canada for analysis.[note 6][37][38] On October 25, 2006, after nearly four weeks of intensive searching in the jungle by about 200 Brazilian Army troops equipped with metal detectors, the memory module of the Boeing's Cockpit Voice Recorder was finally found.[1] The module was discovered intact, separated from other wreckage pieces, embedded in about 20 centimetres (8 in) of soil, and was also sent for analysis by the TSB in Canada....

[Edited 2010-02-10 15:39:41]

Just noticed from Flightglobal ( sorry if anyone else has already mentioned this ) that it is indeed the memory unit which is missing

...Images show that the recorder's chassis has been found but the cylindrical memory unit, and its attached locator beacon, are missing...

Does anyone know whether all 738s are fitted with the same model of CVR ?or is the model a customer option ? Considering how important the CVR is , and how it is of no use without the memory module , for it to have separated twice in a relatively small number of crashes is very concerning ... although on the other hand it does sound from the Flightglobal article as if the memory module has its own locator beacon .


[Edited 2010-02-10 15:47:54]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-10 15:36:02 and read 14151 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 228):
I am really curious as to your source of information.

Debkafiles is well known for its sensationalism.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 228):
Right now I think its a little silly to even have bothered responding.

No, thank you for offering solid counter-arguments. I dont think anyone could have done it better then you.

[Edited 2010-02-10 15:37:15]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-10 15:45:33 and read 14128 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 229):
Quoting Aeolus (Reply 226):
hadn't they discarded the terrorist attack theory already or was it just a temporary dismissal?

There has been discussion concerning this, but Minister Aridi re-confirmed that foul play was ruled out from the early days of the recovery operation. There is no history of hiding violence in Lebanon, so I believe them when they say this was not and act of violence. Hopefully, I am not mistaken.

I don't understand how anyone can dismiss anything. Terrorists have different ways of causing an air disaster, including hijacking or carrying a bomb on-board, so I do not think that it is wise nor smart to rule out anything until the investigation completes and the reason for the accident is determined with certainty.

I consider a public statement that rules out terrorism as a sign of a shortcoming with the person who make it.

[Edited 2010-02-10 15:48:31]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-10 15:49:03 and read 14162 times.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 232):
Debkafiles is well known for its sensationalism.

I did some reading, I see what you mean.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 232):
No, thank you for offering solid counter-arguments. I dont think anyone could have done it better then you.

Pleasure, and thank you  

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2010-02-10 16:02:25 and read 14098 times.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 233):
I consider a public statements that rules out terrorism as a sign of a shortcoming with the person who make them

We cannot ignore any possible reason for this terrible crash, including terrorism, mechanical failure or pilot/operational error or some combination. Making a specific conclusion before a through investigation, unless the evidence is so immediately conclusive can obsure and mis-direct the impartiality the investigators need to have to find the real cause. For some they would prefer it being a terror attack so can blame someone quickly or for their own political reasons. Some states (including the USA, France and Ethopia) may want to downplay terrorism or the acts of other states so not to scare travelers and for obious political reasons.

Let us hope there is a transparent, professional and impartial investigation of this crash so we take the proper actions to prevent another such crash. Evidence shoud be properly secured and a lock down of any comments should be in effect except for offical reports by the investigators. If indeed it was an act of terror or of a state, then we have some very serious issues as to security that could affect air travel worldwide.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-10 16:29:03 and read 14053 times.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 233):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 235):

Allow me to correct my wording. They marked foul play a distant possibility (best translation I could do). This was because there were no burn/other bomb related indications on the first bodies discovered. I don't know the details of this but the minister of health discussed it on television as soon as the bodies had been examined.

Never the less, I also definitely am against ruling anything out. I was trying to say that if this scenario is the case, the current evidence to support it is flimsy at best.

If indeed there was a bomb carried on board, we are most definitely looking at a whole new level of security issues, and yes, worldwide.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-10 16:50:49 and read 14032 times.

I laughed at that DEBKAfiles article when it said Hassan Nasrallah was going to be on the flight. This is a man who is in hiding and speaks to his supporters via teleprompter from an undisclosed location, yet he was planning on walking into Beirut Airport and boarding a regularly scheduled flight with other passengers??????

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2010-02-10 19:31:44 and read 13923 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 230):
as far as I'm concerned, The CVR won't be that necessary.

The CVR can add a whole lot. If all you had was the FDR from the Helios crash, you never would have had the cause, at least not so far as many in the public would accept. Indeed, from how often I see on this forum comments like, "A professional pilot would never do such a thing," etc., nobody would have believed what was, in my opinion, a pathetic absence of airmanship and cockpit discipline. I won't do the late crewmembers of that flight the disservice of calling them "dimwits", given that I am sure their families would disagree, but they certainly didn't meet what anybody would consider an acceptable standard of performance on that day. The CVR made very clear what caused that crash.

Of course, we need to see what the FDR says before we can evaluate the need for the CVR, but I am in no way ready to dismiss the need for the CVR at this point. Nor am I ready to just "blame the pilots", as was suggested by at least one leaker from the investigation. The FDR gives us what they did and what the aircraft was doing; the CVR, if necessary, may do a lot to illuminate the "why".

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-10 19:51:51 and read 13940 times.

Aridi says more than 1000 units of data retrieved from second black box
February 10, 2010

Prior to entering the cabinet session on Wednesday, Public Works and Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi told the press that more than 1000 units of data were retrieved from the second black box—which was recovered Wednesday—of the Ethiopian plane that crashed last month.

He refused to speculate on the causes of the crash, saying that he would leave the analysis to the experts.

Aridi added that the second black box was found without its main part, which went missing due to the severity of the crash.


http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=145405

[Edited 2010-02-10 20:05:07]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: dkny
Posted 2010-02-10 22:43:25 and read 13776 times.

Ethiopian Airlines says sabotage not ruled out
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6190HI20100210
"Ethiopian Airlines said on Wednesday it still believed sabotage may have caused the crash of one of its aircraft off Lebanon last month which killed all 90 people on board."

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-10 23:38:08 and read 13724 times.

Mitri says no evidence of sabotage in Ethiopian plane crash
February 11, 2010

Following Tuesday’s cabinet session at the Grand Serial, Information Minister Tarek Mitri told reporters that Prime Minister Saad Hariri stressed during the meeting the importance of cooperation between the Lebanese authorities and the states that assisted the country in the search operations for last month’s crashed Ethiopian plane.

The PM said that nothing justifies the crash’s politicization and called on all political parties to stop any attempt to politicize the issue, said Mitri.

“We all agreed with Hariri on the need to wait for the detailed report on the plane crash” as was agreed during Wednesday’s sit-down, added Mitri. Hariri had earlier chaired a meeting that included security, military and judicial officials to discuss the crash.

Mitri added that Lebanese navy divers were still looking for the missing part of the second black box retrieved on Wednesday, which reportedly has the memory disk of the cockpit’s voice recordings.

He also responded to the Ethiopian Airlines statement, which said it could not rule out sabotage as the cause of the plane crash, saying that there is no evidence that there was sabotage or act of terrorism that caused the airliner to crash.

“The Ethiopians have the right to say whatever they want, but we have no evidence that shows [sabotage]. We are waiting for the investigation to reveal the whole truth to the public,” Mitri said.


http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=145478

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-11 01:07:59 and read 13603 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 241):
The PM said that nothing justifies the crash’s politicization and called on all political parties to stop any attempt to politicize the issue, said Mitri.

Who is "politicizing" the crash? Did I miss something?
(note: this is not a political forum)

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-11 01:58:59 and read 13587 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 237):
I laughed at that DEBKAfiles article when it said Hassan Nasrallah was going to be on the flight. This is a man who is in hiding and speaks to his supporters via teleprompter from an undisclosed location, yet he was planning on walking into Beirut Airport and boarding a regularly scheduled flight with other passengers?

I figured I couldn't express that properly so i thought I'd go with 'far fetched', but well said 
Quoting BA (Reply 241):
“The Ethiopians have the right to say whatever they want, but we have no evidence that shows [sabotage]. We are waiting for the investigation to reveal the whole truth to the public,” Mitri said.

This is something we've been waiting to hear.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 242):
Who is "politicizing" the crash? Did I miss something?
(note: this is not a political forum)

The issues of the French ambassador's wife and the Hezbollah members on board. They're probably referring to the rumors of either being a target for political reasons. It was the media mostly.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-11 03:18:53 and read 13477 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 228):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 225):
French sources announced that human error by the pilot was the cause of the Ethiopian airliner crash.

Reuters announced that there seems to be a primary fault on the pilot.

Exactly. All the media can provide are "sources" rather than statements from the investigators.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 233):
I consider a public statement that rules out terrorism as a sign of a shortcoming with the person who make it.

I don't know how many times we have to go over this but such media reports require some flexibility in reading. It's highly probable that what was meant or said was that "there is no evidence so far of sabotage or terrorism and we would have expected to see some by now if it was the case so we think it's extremely unlikely". Somewhere between the investigators saying that and the public reading what eventually appears in the media, the meaning gets distorted.


Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 235):
Making a specific conclusion before a through investigation, unless the evidence is so immediately conclusive can obsure and mis-direct the impartiality the investigators need

Very unlikely. I doubt the investigators are so easily led astray by the media and we have no reason to believe the investigators have made any specific conclusions.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 232):
Quoting ramzi (Reply 228):
I am really curious as to your source of information.

Debkafiles is well known for its sensationalism.

It certainly looks like classic sensationalism where the rest of the evidence is completely ignored.

I'm mystified by how many people are still treating all media reports as official statments by the investigators.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-02-11 03:47:32 and read 13491 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 238):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 230):
as far as I'm concerned, The CVR won't be that necessary.

The CVR can add a whole lot.

I can't remember one single instance where an investigation has been resolved by a CVR read-out.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 238):
If all you had was the FDR from the Helios crash, you never would have had the cause, at least not so far as many in the public would accept. Indeed

And this is where our roads part. I'm interested in knowing the reasons of an accident, and I couldn't give a hoot to what joe-six-pack accepts or not. On that particular instance, the FDR - and the cockpit remains - revealed the mis-handling of the pressurization mode selector and the event scenario became quite obvious in its simple lethality. The CVR just confirmed the gory details.
On the other hand, calling dead people "dimwits" is beyond my understanding of the termed "accident investigation" and I move that it can only occur with the public release of a CVR print-out... and of course, that sort of quick assessment totally leaves aside the necessary change in the aircraft cockpit ergonomics...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-11 08:47:32 and read 13228 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 245):

I can't remember one single instance where an investigation has been resolved by a CVR read-out.

Just off the top of my head, it mattered in the Tenerife crash, where crucial information was not received by the flight crew due to a conflict on the radio (simultaneous transmission).

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-02-11 11:00:32 and read 13062 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 244):
Exactly. All the media can provide are "sources" rather than statements from the investigators.

I am wondering if it is normal for the investigative team to go in hibernation mode and not provide any update until all pieces of the puzzle are analyzed and pieced together? It is troubling to me that all info is either leaked or conveyed via politicians. I would rather hear directly (even in the form of press releases, meaning no Q&A session where answers have to be made up on the spot) from the technical team.

Re: ET not ruling out foul play is not a surprise. Again, without official data from the investigators, it is hard to tell if this position is justified. It looks like there is, up to now, no physical evidence of sabotage. The airline is a source of pride for most Ethiopians. In its close to 65 years existence, it has not had a single fatal accident due to human error (be it cockpit or maintenance). The 2 fatal incidents were: one involving double bird strikes to both engines of a 737 on take off at Bahir Dar airport and the second was a hijacking. No matter how you slice it, ET does not want to set a new precedence with ET409, but I would think that they will accept the outcome of the investigation, so long as the empirical evidence is conclusive.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-11 11:31:20 and read 13122 times.

Aridi: Naameh Coast Off-Limits, No Final Say until Missing Piece of Cockpit Recorder is Found

Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi on Thursday declared the coastal strip of Naameh off-limits and said no official announcement would be made unless the missing part from the cockpit recorder was found.
"The area of search operations off the coast of Naameh is off-limits," Aridi told a packed news conference at Beirut airport.

He said Lebanon, however, will halt recovery of more debris unless it was told otherwise by the Ethiopian Airlines company.

"Some of the plane parts were kept in place. If the insurance company wants to retrieve them and ask Ethiopian Airlines for that, then we will do the job," said Aridi as he showed pictures of the plane wreckage taken underwater.

He vowed, however, not to make any "official announcement before the entire second black box was found."


http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Ne...m&6C31A3ADDE5732B9C22576C70034EB0E

Some new photos being shown by Public Works and Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0b6G3M22TP2c9/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/085K46I1i6cNr/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04At1uQfOB3Yy/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0f2rcb7dHU21M/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06fh90UgGu5n7/1000x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/002z5gw8Aca17/761x.jpg

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2010-02-11 11:59:13 and read 13071 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 245):
totally leaves aside the necessary change in the aircraft cockpit ergonomics...

Right. Because every competent 737 f/o doesn't automatically glance at the cabin altitude panel during the climb.  
Or when their ears pop. Or when the MASKS DEPLOY.

Do we really have to design the ergonomics of a cockpit so that a completely-untrained person can operate the thing?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-02-11 12:07:16 and read 12975 times.

BA, once again, thank you for sharing the pix and news clippings.

Quoting BA (Reply 248):
"The area of search operations off the coast of Naameh is off-limits,"

What does off-limits mean? That the area is restricted from public access or that the Lebanese gov't will not longer search that particular area?

Also, does it look like the landing gear is deployed? Any justification for that?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-02-11 12:16:23 and read 12974 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 249):
Do we really have to design the ergonomics of a cockpit so that a completely-untrained person can operate the thing?

Why so, might I ask ?, as you seem to have some very strong notions on how the aircraft shoiuld be operated.
Unfortunately for you, some might beg to differ as in the report conclusions we could read this in the "LATENT CAUSES" :
"...Ineffectiveness and inadequacy of measures taken by the manufacturer in response to previous pressurization incidents in the particular type of aircraft, both with regard to modifications to aircraft systems as well as to guidance to the crews...."

Feel free to open a thread on that accident, we're highjackjing this one.

Regards

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-11 12:17:55 and read 13044 times.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 250):
BA, once again, thank you for sharing the pix and news clippings.

You're very welcome.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 250):
What does off-limits mean? That the area is restricted from public access or that the Lebanese gov't will not longer search that particular area?

Off limits from public access.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-11 12:26:55 and read 12999 times.

BA - Thanks again for the wonderful pics and timely reports.

I see no evidence of fire or explosion in the pictures. I realize that is not conclusive, but...

Does anyone else see possible fire or explosion damage?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-02-11 12:29:45 and read 13004 times.


BA
,
Is there a way to have a comment on these last pictures as they are giving a tantalising glance of the wreck state ?
Problem is, there is no way we could give a scale to the pics, There is a glimpse of the vertical tail seemingly clean shorn from the fuselage.... the first pic in the group of nine could be of one destroyed engine...
Comments would be welcome.
Thanks for sharing, anyway.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-11 12:34:45 and read 12971 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 253):
BA - Thanks again for the wonderful pics and timely reports.

You're very welcome!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 254):
Is there a way to have a comment on these last pictures as they are giving a tantalising glance of the wreck state ?

Are you asking if you can send a comment to the investigators about these pictures?

You can contact Lebanon's Director General of Civil Aviation, Dr. Hamdi Chaouk. He's part of the investigation team. Send me a private message and I can supply you with his email.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-11 12:46:50 and read 12948 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 255):

Are you asking if you can send a comment to the investigators about these pictures?

I may be wrong, but I think that he is wondering if there are captions to go with the photos to enhance our understanding of what is seen. As in comments made by whoever released the photos.

And thanks again for the excellent photos!

[Edited 2010-02-11 12:47:40]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-11 13:21:15 and read 12902 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 256):
I may be wrong, but I think that he is wondering if there are captions to go with the photos to enhance our understanding of what is seen. As in comments made by whoever released the photos.

Ah yes I see. The captions really don't provide any valuable information.

Here it is:

Lebanon's Minister of Public Works and Transport Ghazi Aridi shows underwater photographs of parts of the Ethiopian airlines plane which crashed into the Mediterranean sea on January 25, 2010, during a news conference at Beirut international airport, February 11, 2010.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: RFields5421
Posted 2010-02-11 13:55:45 and read 12805 times.

So there is no comment on or identification of items in the individual pictures?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SXI899
Posted 2010-02-11 13:57:51 and read 12892 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 254):
There is a glimpse of the vertical tail seemingly clean shorn from the fuselage

It looks to me like the forward section of the vertical stabilizer where it is faired into the upper fuselage. (the section above the aft door in the photo below)

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner - WorldAirImages



Is it possible that the first image in the set is the APU?

Yorden

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-11 14:08:40 and read 12820 times.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 258):
So there is no comment on or identification of items in the individual pictures?

Not in the captions of these photos. Unfortunately not. These were taken and posted by Reuters and Associated Press.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-02-11 15:15:19 and read 12760 times.

Quoting SXI899 (Reply 259):
It looks to me like the forward section of the vertical stabilizer where it is faired into the upper fuselage. (the section above the aft door in the photo below)

Very good catch ! That fairing is still attached to the upper fuselage part. There is no pic of the vertical tail.

Quoting SXI899 (Reply 259):
Is it possible that the first image in the set is the APU?

I'd say yes, the turbine module in the foreground, and badly smashed (was it working ?). but the lack of another part to give the pic scale should make us cautious...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: DUALRATED
Posted 2010-02-11 17:30:57 and read 12641 times.

Quoting dkny (Reply 240):
Ethiopian Airlines says sabotage not ruled out
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6190HI20100210
"Ethiopian Airlines said on Wednesday it still believed sabotage may have caused the crash of one of its aircraft off Lebanon last month which killed all 90 people on board."

Waiting to see where this leads

Quoting BA (Reply 237):
I laughed at that DEBKAfiles article when it said Hassan Nasrallah was going to be on the flight.

That is funny , and you are right I can't see him doing that   

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: JONukl
Posted 2010-02-11 18:06:53 and read 12587 times.

REGARDING CVR SPLIT
I read the specifications for the solid state cvr recorders. They are typ-tested at 3400 g retardation. It this one split in the crash it must have been a rater violent event I think. Not even like diving into the sea at full speed nose first - in my opinion.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2010-02-11 20:01:24 and read 12462 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 251):
you seem to have some very strong notions on how the aircraft shoiuld be operated

I have some strong notions about developing and following practices that will keep me from killing myself and, were I an ATP, those behind me. And when I'm back there, I want the captain in that American cockpit fire video as my pilot, not the guy who pulls the breaker on the warning system without ever checking the cabin alitude after (a) an aural warning [the one that the NTSB says shoulda been more specific], (b) ear pain and (c) masks deploying.

Don't need a new thread; we'd just be beating this to death.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-11 20:48:20 and read 12463 times.

These photos were taken during a press conference the Transport Minister held, but they also did publish a JPEG of the photos and I did post them already. Here it is again:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06fh90UgGu5n7/1000x.jpg

[Edited 2010-02-12 08:12:20 by diamond]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-02-12 01:34:27 and read 12261 times.

Quoting JONukl (Reply 263):
REGARDING CVR SPLIT
I read the specifications for the solid state cvr recorders. They are typ-tested at 3400 g retardation. It this one split in the crash it must have been a rater violent event I think. Not even like diving into the sea at full speed nose first - in my opinion.

Are you sure that test means the CVR must stay in one piece ? I could be wrong but I think the idea is only to stay usable, and for that only the cylinder is important.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-12 03:43:51 and read 12140 times.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 247):
I am wondering if it is normal for the investigative team to go in hibernation mode and not provide any update until all pieces of the puzzle are analyzed and pieced together?

When I said that "all the media can provide are 'sources'", I meant for those controversial remarks in particular. Obviously, the comments from named officials carry more weight, as long as some allowance is made for tranlation and interpretation.

It is normal for investigators not to release statements that they're not especially sure of. If they were to reveal all the possibilities they were considering, just imagine what the media and some of its readers would make of it.

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 262):
Quoting dkny (Reply 240):
Ethiopian Airlines says sabotage not ruled out
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6190HI20100210
"Ethiopian Airlines said on Wednesday it still believed sabotage may have caused the crash of one of its aircraft off Lebanon last month which killed all 90 people on board."

Waiting to see where this leads

It might simply mean that the media is wrong to say that it was "completely ruled out". In other words, they've seen no evidence but they haven't completely ruled it out, which is what most of us thought was the case all along. Rather than assuming each comment supercedes all previous comments, it's much more reliable to put them all together and look at the whole picture.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BrusselsSouth
Posted 2010-02-12 04:18:35 and read 12167 times.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 222):
It seems that the doomed aircraft was in service with Ryanair up to 2009.
http://www.airfleets.net/flightlog/i...29935

Indeed, as EI-CSW. I flew with it on March 13th, 2009, between BGY and CRL. I took a couple of photos inside the cabin, and a friend of mine took a photo of me in front of the aircraft at CRL...

I think that's the second aircraft I've taken that has been involved in a fatal accident later   

Regards
BrusselsSouth

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: AVLNative
Posted 2010-02-12 05:17:05 and read 12066 times.

Quoting BrusselsSouth (Reply 272):
I think that's the second aircraft I've taken that has been involved in a fatal accident later

You may want to post the list of aircraft you've taken...  

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-02-12 09:16:35 and read 11865 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 264):
I have some strong notions about developing and following practices that will keep me from killing myself and, were I an ATP, those behind me.

Arrogance is one of the mothers of all vices.
Especially when one hasn't got a clue on aviation environment.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 264):
Don't need a new thread; we'd just be beating this to death.

Can't agree more. We're not on the same planet.
(Signed : one of those suicidal murderous maniacs living in airliners'cockpits).

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-02-13 05:40:30 and read 11414 times.

We have no new updates in over 24 hours. BA and ramzi where are you?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-13 06:50:30 and read 11361 times.

Quote:
The National News Agency (NNA) reported on Saturday that another victim of the Ethiopian airliner that crashed off Lebanon’s coast last month has been identified in DNA tests. The body was identified as Mustafa Haitham Karnaaout.

The NNA also reported that the body of Assad Massoud Feghaly, also a victim in the crash, has been released to his family.
Quote:
The bodies of five Ethiopians killed in the airliner crash off the coast of Lebanon last month were transferred to an Ethiopian delegation to be returned to their home country on Saturday, the National News Agency (NNA) reported.

The NNA said the victim’s remains were transported separately - in five ambulances - from Rafik Hariri University Hospital to Beirut’s Rafik Hariri International Airport.
Here it seems the families of the victims are requesting permission to help in the retrieval of more bodies, suggesting the rescue teams extend the zone being searched.

That's about it, not much really. I expect to get an exact count of how many bodies have been retrieved soon. Hopefully it will be a large number. We already have over 30 out of 90, possibly up to 40 or more as well depending on the last convoy.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-02-13 07:11:03 and read 11320 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 272):
That's about it

No news about the second black box??? Is the weather good at this time?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-13 07:44:35 and read 11301 times.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 273):

No news about the second black box??? Is the weather good at this time?

Strangely none whatsoever. The media seems to be more interested in 14/2 at the moment. The weather is fine, pretty warm actually. I was having lunch at a sea side restaurant yesterday and did sea the Lebanese Army divers positioning at certain points and moving between Naameh and the naval base. I suppose this means search and rescue is still underway but the results are getting slimmer by the day...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-02-13 07:58:50 and read 11283 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 274):
The weather is fine, pretty warm actually. I was having lunch at a sea side restaurant yesterday

Lucky you. I wish i was with you, Lebanon is the best place for Sultan Ibrahim fish. Kind of very small red snapper if i am not wrong.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-13 09:50:01 and read 11224 times.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 275):
Lucky you. I wish i was with you, Lebanon is the best place for Sultan Ibrahim fish. Kind of very small red snapper if i am not wrong.

You're going way off topic  
Have a nice weekend!

PS: I didnt know that. I'll make sure to have some next time I eat fish in a restaurant. Thanks.
It's not the right moment and place to discuss that though, with all the fuel and debris floating there, I wouldnt want to eat fish from anywhere near Beirut anytime soon. But I dont think they fish in that area anyway.

[Edited 2010-02-13 09:54:50]

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2010-02-13 11:52:44 and read 11238 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 270):

Arrogance is one of the mothers of all vices.

Funny, I thought it was sanctimony. Or was it oversensitivity?

So much for me trying to be cordial.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-02-13 17:34:38 and read 11064 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 264):
the guy who pulls the breaker on the warning system without ever checking the cabin alitude after (a) an aural warning [the one that the NTSB says shoulda been more specific], (b) ear pain and (c) masks deploying.

I feel the need to make myself quite clear on this issue, and as usual, I also feel the need to defend my colleagues when they are unjustly attacked by people who don't know... So let's take your sentence bit by bit :

"...the guy who pulls the breaker on the warning system without ever checking the cabin alitude "...
The mistake here was that that crew started with the assumption that the warning was landing gear related... and although wrong, the assumption was logical : that horn, they had heard it hundreds of times for the gear, and probably never for a pressurization default. On top of that, the "Manual" mode of pressurization is indicated by a...GREEN light right on the pressurization panel. Shall I stress that a green light is normally an indication of "Normal System Operation" ?

"...after (a) an aural warning [the one that the NTSB says shoulda been more specific..."
Normally, one could cancel the aural warning with a switch on the pedestal. That was impossible, which led them deeper into a gear indication malfunction...

"...(b) ear pain and ..."
Where did you get that information ? On every flight, my ears pop and I automatically swallow in order to clear them...a bit more or a bit less is hardly noticeable.

"...(c) masks deploying..."
The only indication of the cabin masks deployment is , on the aft overhead panel, an amber light, probably 1/2 by 1/4 inch labeled " PAX OXY ON". In broad daylight, easy to miss.

That's what I think and that's why I find your judgement either arrogant - or sanctimonious ( your choice).

As for the cordiality of your post, my understanding of English is probably not good enough to have picked it, and for that, I apologise.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-02-14 00:07:04 and read 10888 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 264):
I have some strong notions about developing and following practices that will keep me from killing myself and, were I an ATP, those behind me. And when I'm back there, I want the captain in that American cockpit fire video as my pilot, not the guy who pulls the breaker on the warning system without ever checking the cabin alitude after (a) an aural warning [the one that the NTSB says shoulda been more specific], (b) ear pain and (c) masks deploying.

Have you ever talked to anyone who went through something similar to the above that lived to tell the tale? While I do not subscribe 100% to Pihero's part of sentence where he says the cockpit ergonomics need a makeover, there are definitely parts that do...

Quoting Pihero (Reply 278):
I feel the need to make myself quite clear on this issue, and as usual, I also feel the need to defend my colleagues when they are unjustly attacked by people who don't know... So let's take your sentence bit by bit :

Let me add to that mon ami, based on the discussions with those who have suffered slow pressure loss and lived to tell the tale.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 278):
The mistake here was that that crew started with the assumption that the warning was landing gear related... and although wrong, the assumption was logical : that horn, they had heard it hundreds of times for the gear, and probably never for a pressurization default. On top of that, the "Manual" mode of pressurization is indicated by a...GREEN light right on the pressurization panel. Shall I stress that a green light is normally an indication of "Normal System Operation" ?

I count this happens in most of the cases I know. Their first reaction was... "TAKE OFF CONFIG?", then they go and realize they've finished the take off phase, so it's "LANDING GEAR?"... go and check through everything and then... "hmm, better check the overhead see if anything's amiss"... "ahhhh, cabin pressure"... However, this is has been missed before, because the person looking at the overhead was actually looking at something that can be linked with HYD or ELEC... and not CAB PRESS/PACK.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 278):
Where did you get that information ? On every flight, my ears pop and I automatically swallow in order to clear them...a bit more or a bit less is hardly noticeable.

Pihero, U'd probably agree that slow pressure loss can be more dangerous than a quick loss of cab press?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 278):
The only indication of the cabin masks deployment is , on the aft overhead panel, an amber light, probably 1/2 by 1/4 inch labeled " PAX OXY ON". In broad daylight, easy to miss.

Oh boy, missing that and CAB PRESS won't be a 1 in a million occurence when the warning repeat horn sounds...

One of the failure in the link of what could have saved the day was the procedure for the cabin crew (in Helios case), though someone could correct me on this. There were some debate on what the cabin crew should do when oxy masks were deployed and the plane does not descend after X mins. Over here, if oxy masks deploy and airplane does not descend and no word from cockpit, cabin crew enters cockpit to check.

Based on experience on one airline here:
Case 1, slow cabin pressurization, unable to catch up with climbing rate of aircraft. Cabin Alt went beyond 10,000, aircraft was already at 20,000. 1 Cabin crew felt nausea, and could barely stand up. Purser took POB, went to cockpit. Crew was in delirium debating to each other on the warning. It took the POB and the purser to convince one of the pilots to put on his mark, and that one quickly identified the problem and rectified the situation.

Reason for crew failing to recognize: They CAB PRESS light was too dim and they missed it.

Case 2, again slow cabin pressurization (stuck outflow valve). Cab Alt reached 14,000, oxy masks deployed, plane did not level off or descend. After everyone is seated with the mask, purser went to cockpit to find... 2 unconscious pilots. Administered the masks, crew recovered, and landed.

Case 3, again stuck outflow valve, cabin alt reached 12,000 - 13,000... cabin alt alerter failed. 1 F/A collapsed. Purser informed the cockpit crew, who'd then realized the alerter had failed and rectified the situation.

Case 4, after a botched attempted landing (crew tried to descend below MDA without seeing the airport, let alone the runway), crew was visual with runway too near and too high. Crew attempted a steep descent onto the runway, at one point, the VS was ert), cabin alt alerter sounded. Again, the flow was, "take off config?", then went to check the landing gear... then checked if HYDs had a problem on the overhead, to find the CAB ALT >10,000. Upon landing, it was revealed that there was a hull puncture. The thud was not just ground contact, it was the belly hitting the perimeter fence short of the runway creating a nice hole in the belly.

The above occured on 737-200s and 737-300/400s, over the course of 10 years at 2 airlines the FA who told me had worked with. She recalls at least 10 similar cases. It was largely a maintenance issue, and having discussed the Helios case with me, she finds it hard to understand why the cabin crew did not intervene earlier, and why some airlines have it written that upon oxy deployment in cabin, the crew should just sit and wait endlessly.

Sure, the whole thing can be solved without a makeover, just as long as the procedures for cockpit and cabin crew on oxy/pressure related matters allows for mutual intervention/check (something that more than a handful airlines disagree to)... but then, has anything been done on that aspect?

So, wjcandee, I suggest the next time one would one to slagg off the dead crew, think first.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-14 01:46:48 and read 10836 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 278):

Welcome to my respected members list. And salutes to the great job you people do out there, thank you.

Sobhi, I don't eat fish.   But yes, your information is correct, hope you can come and enjoy some soon.

Rolfen, Naameh is around one of the key locations where fishing takes place. But I think most restaurants get their fish from places such as Byblos or even abroad. I would estimate the site of the crash has affected the marine life in the area, at least mildly. With almost 280km of shore line that won't be a problem, but still. We've heard nothing of Ethiopian lately, can someone bare some news from their side?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-15 06:34:44 and read 10355 times.

The Ocean Alert will be withdrawing from Lebanon this afternoon to be replaced by the soon to arrive Odysee Explorer. It seems the search is nearing its end, in the morning a total of 60 bodies was approximated as the number of those retrieved, meaning two thirds of the passengers and crew on the aircraft. There is no new news as to the missing part of the CVR. The whether today was very helpful, but it will start to get aggressive again as of later this evening.

Only in Arabic unfortunately: http://www.lebanonfiles.com/news_desc.php?id=143272

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: dkny
Posted 2010-02-16 05:05:21 and read 9985 times.

"Lebanese navy divers have retrieved the memory of the cockpit voice recorder of an Ethiopian plane which crashed off the coast last month killing 90 people on board, the military says."



http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...non-crash-found-20100216-o92k.html

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-02-16 06:03:44 and read 9896 times.

Quoting dkny (Reply 282):
"Lebanese navy divers have retrieved the memory of the cockpit voice recorder of an Ethiopian plane which crashed off the coast last month killing 90 people on board, the military says."

Excellent news. Can someone reaffirm this?
I looked in FlightGlobal and nothing yet.

-Aeolus

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: AVLNative
Posted 2010-02-16 08:44:14 and read 9760 times.

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Ne...7151DC22576CB0035A4E8?OpenDocument

More Victims Identified, Plane Wreckage Removal Awaits Committee Decision

The remains of seven new victims from the Ethiopian plane crash were identified by DNA tests on Monday as recovery of the main wreckage awaited approval of the international investigation committee.

They were identified as Antoine al-Hayek, Elias Rafeeh, Hussein Barakat, Hasan Ibrahim, Hussein Farhat, Bassem Khazaal and Rawan Wazneh.

Flight 409 bound for Addis Ababa crashed into the Mediterranean Sea minutes after takeoff from Beirut airport early in the morning of Jan. 25, killing all 90 people on board.

Meanwhile, Lebanese army divers were nearly at the beginning of the final stage of the search for plane crash victims.

This issue, however, would raise a question of how to deal with the main parts of the plane which are still in place about 45 meters deep off the coast of Naameh south of Beirut.

As-Safir newspaper on Monday quoted high-ranking official sources as saying that recovery of the main wreckage or moving it requires a decision by the international committee investigating the disaster.

It said the committee is likely to take a decision in this regard on Monday or Tuesday after examining the data and pictures of the plane taken underwater.


Beirut, 15 Feb 10, 10:53

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-16 09:03:13 and read 9710 times.

Firstly, the remaining part of the CVR is en route to the airport right now to be transported to Paris immediately, probably aboard one of PM Hariri's aircraft again.

Three more bodies were retrieved today. Last night's news reported 55 bodies other than the 5 that were transported to Ethiopia. If everything is understood correctly, the total is now 63/90.

The Odysee Explorer has replaced the Ocean Alert in the search that hasn't stopped, but I suspect will soon.

Previously Minister of Transportation Aridi said there was no need for the aircraft to be recovered on the Lebanese part seeing as the FDR has been recovered and the CVR will be. He said, however, that if the Ethiopian part requested the wreckage then the Lebanese Army is ready and willing at any point to salvage it. From the naharnet article, it seems they will try to take a final decision on this now, probably because if it were to be done it should be now rather than a while later when it will naturally be more difficult.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-02-16 10:34:07 and read 9604 times.

Quoting dkny (Reply 282):
Lebanese navy divers have retrieved the memory of the cockpit voice recorder of an Ethiopian plane

Any idea of how much damage occured when it got separated from its base? Hope the sound recording is in good shape.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-02-16 16:20:28 and read 9373 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 279):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 278):

A pilot should be able to interpret every warning the aircraft can possibly throw.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-02-16 19:59:51 and read 9267 times.

Good news that they found the CVR's memory. About the retrieving, seeing that it's not in deep waters, it might be a good idea to do it, before someone else do and the plane ends up on eBay.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: dkny
Posted 2010-02-16 23:46:25 and read 9191 times.

Another theory is now coming up

"Statements made anonymously by Lebanese airport sources report that Captain Habtamu Benti, the pilot in command (PIC) of the Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737-800 encountered engine problems, perhaps a flame out, during takeoff, and requested permission to abort the flight and return to Beirut. He was given clearance to do so, but another aircraft, a Etihad Airlines flight from Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates was in the process of landing and could have interfered with his emergency maneuvers. Exactly what happened under this scenario is as yet unknown."

http://www.examiner.com/x-18134-Airl...ft-involved-in-Lebanon-ET409-crash

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-17 00:37:14 and read 9111 times.

Quoting dkny (Reply 289):

The direction of the flight path along with the communication with the control tower completely disproves this. The pilot never requested a return, and there are three runways at BEY. With Etihad most likely landing on 17 he could have comfortable made a landing on 03/21, especially from the position he was at. Either way, how long does it take to land an A320? Certainly not longer than it would have taken Ethiopian 409 to turn around and position itself for landing.

That being said, the engine trouble scenario seems most tempting to believe from where I see it. Some engine malfunction, add to it a sensitive lightening strike and the bad weather, sounds like an aircraft in pieces to me. Yes, yes, just speculation, very random speculation as well. In fact no Lebanese airport official would have this kind of information the article provides. I think the preliminary answers/suspicions are only in the hands of the investigative board and high Lebanese officials, those ones that no better than to leak such information to the media.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-17 04:02:04 and read 9035 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 290):
those ones that no better than to leak such information to the media

   All we've heard from official sources is that they were asked to turn left to 270o but it didn't work as planned.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 287):
A pilot should be able to interpret every warning the aircraft can possibly throw.

And a professional driver should never have an accident and a professional footballer should never miss a penalty, etc. However, back in the real world...

Can you imagine what the world would be like if the designers, manufacturers, operators and regulators didn't give any thought to the systems and procedures because "the pilots should be able to sort out any problems"?

This is precisely why a finding of "pilot error" is never the end of an investigation.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Amexair
Posted 2010-02-17 14:06:52 and read 8655 times.

[quote=dkny,reply=289]

Well, it sounds premature but I think its something to grasp on for the time being until the official report is out. What I don't still understand was why news like this was not broad casted, I mean if the pilot requested an emergency landing, news like that would hit the screens the moment the crash happened. Previous crashes of this sort always had immediate statements from the ATC. And I'm assuming it was only a single engine flame out because if it happened moments after take off then the plane would not have been able to make it to 9k. If this report is also true then I'm guessing that useless CCTV video provides some evidence of an engine-flameout of some sort.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-17 14:30:20 and read 8607 times.

Quoting Amexair (Reply 292):
don't still understand was why news like this was not broad casted

Because it is not true.

Quoting Amexair (Reply 292):
then I'm guessing that useless CCTV video provides some evidence of an engine-flameout of some sort.

It does not.

There is no substantial proof of any occurrence, whether an engine flame-out or a bomb or even pilot error. I suggest we await the preliminary report. I am confident the Lebanese government will not keep the truth a secret, and we will here it shorty after they do.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2010-02-18 02:28:30 and read 8409 times.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 293):

There is no substantial proof of any occurrence, whether an engine flame-out or a bomb or even pilot error. I suggest we await the preliminary report. I am confident the Lebanese government will not keep the truth a secret, and we will here it shorty after they do.

Even if the Lebanese government tried to cover something up, I have a hard time imagining that ET or Boeing would keep quiet about the matter...

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: iakobos
Posted 2010-02-18 02:42:02 and read 8396 times.

Any idea why Ocean Alert in on a long search pattern for many hours (025-205 degrees, from Beirut to as far N as Tripoli), parallel to the coast but at abt 55NM off it ?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-18 02:51:57 and read 8386 times.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 295):
Any idea why Ocean Alert in on a long search pattern for many hours (025-205 degrees, from Beirut to as far N as Tripoli), parallel to the coast but at abt 55NM off it ?

Ocean Alert should be on its way home... or perhaps onto another mission.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-18 12:28:57 and read 8140 times.

Mitri: Ethiopian Jet Crash Investigation Team to Soon Hand Over Preliminary Report to Lebanese Government

Information Minister Tareq Mitri announced Thursday that "the government will issue a comprehensive report on the disaster of the Ethiopian jet mid-next week after informing the victims' families of the content."

"The commission investigating the crash of the Ethiopian plane will hand over a preliminary report to the government within the coming few days," Mitri said after the weekly Cabinet session.


http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Ne...m&FE90E5DF423CF920C22576CE006DA75A

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-02-18 12:38:13 and read 8122 times.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 287):
A pilot should be able to interpret every warning the aircraft can possibly throw.

Let me put you in a full motion simulator and throw you multiple problems requiring multi-tasking and simultaneous decision making... ie: task saturation stuff, and perhaps, throw in some stuff that would give you spatial disorientation... Let's see how long you'd last... and afterwards, throw in 100 pilots over similar challenges and see how many of them actually manage to land the aircraft safely (and I can assure you, it won't be a 100% success rate).

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-18 13:48:08 and read 8087 times.

Ethiopian plane crash is not result of explosion

February 18, 2010

Head of the Engineering Department at the French Investigation and Analysis Bureau (BEA) Christophe Ménez told As-Safir newspaper in an interview published on Thursday that evidence shows that last month’s Ethiopian plane crash was not a result of an explosion.

“[The accident] was either due to a human or technical error,” said Ménez, adding that the split of the plane’s smaller parts from its fuselage most likely occurred when the airliner hit the water.

The fuselage and other heavy parts, such as the engine, all sank together, and the plane’s wreckage was in close proximity, he said, which indicate that the airliner did not explode.

Head of the BEA Jean-Paul Troadec told As-Safir that the bureau concluded the black boxes’ data analysis.


http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=147365

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-02-18 13:59:05 and read 8042 times.

Quoting BA (Reply 299):
Head of the Engineering Department at the French Investigation and Analysis Bureau (BEA) Christophe Ménez told As-Safir newspaper in an interview published on Thursday that evidence shows that last month’s Ethiopian plane crash was not a result of an explosion.

Is it Standard Operating Procedure to conduct an interview with just one newspaper while an investigation is going on? I would have thought that the people in charge of the investigation would be barred from talking to the press and if they do, they would have to do it via a press release/conference.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-02-18 15:48:06 and read 7948 times.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 300):
Is it Standard Operating Procedure to conduct an interview with just one newspaper while an investigation is going on? I would have thought that the people in charge of the investigation would be barred from talking to the press and if they do, they would have to do it via a press release/conference.

Maybe they are just having an exclusive piece of information to stop all the wrong speculation and exageration from going on and to show that they are working really hard and have already dismissed that theory. I know it doesn't explain the single-newspaper issue and I would've expected as well to learn this via a press conference/release.

The good thing is that theories are starting to be dismissed and the mystery is being unveiled quickly to put an end to the grief and the mistaken speculation (after the results are given, be gentle) and have a formal report and understanding of the incident that unfortunately happened.

-Aeolus

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: BA
Posted 2010-02-19 00:01:09 and read 7917 times.

The investigation team arrived in Beirut with the preliminary report and headed to the Grand Serail (the Prime Minister's headquarters) and met with Prime Minister Saad Hariri and Public Works and Transport Minister Ghazi Aridi discussing their findings and handing them the report. After the victims of the families of the crash victims have been briefed, the Lebanese government will release the report to the public.

There have been numerous leaks about the report's findings, but I am not going to post them. If you're curious, you can find them yourself.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: David L
Posted 2010-02-19 02:40:55 and read 7825 times.

I don't know if there even is a "Standard Operating Procedure" for the release of information. Perhaps the various parties involved agreed what could be said and what couldn't or perhaps they didn't. According to the report, Mr Menez didn't say anything about what caused the accident, only that the aircraft came down in one piece with no signs of an explosion. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

One thing that is certain, however, is that whatever is said, or not said, will be criticised by somebody.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: AVLNative
Posted 2010-02-20 10:04:52 and read 7425 times.

http://www.iloubnan.info/politics/ac...ian-plane-crash-due-to-human-error

Ethiopian plane crash due to human error
February 19, 2010

BEIRUT- An unnamed source from the French Investigation and Analysis Bureau (BEA) told As-Safir newspaper in an interview published on Friday that the last sentence uttered by the pilot of the Ethiopian airliner that crashed last month off the Lebanese coast was, “We are done for. May God have mercy on us.”

This comes after the investigation team arrived in Beirut on Thursday night to inform the Lebanese government of the findings of the black boxes, which were sent to Paris for data analysis. The team met with Prime Minister Saad Hariri and Public Works and Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi at the Grand Serail prior to Thursday’s cabinet meeting to inform them of the draft of the final report on the crash.

The source said that the black boxes’ data and the Cockpit Voice Recordings revealed the details of the incident, and shows the sequence of events as follows:

The plane took off on January 25 at 2:37 a.m. and hit the water at 2:40 a.m., which means that the flight lasted four minutes only. The plane suddenly rose to approximately 2,750 meters before it plunged into the sea. The descent took around 40 seconds.

The pilot gave an order to the co-pilot after the former communicated with the air-traffic controllers at Beirut’s International Rafik Hariri Airport. Data analysis revealed that the co-pilot did not carry out the order or undertook an opposite action. Believing that the co-pilot complied with the instructions, the pilot consequently lost control of the plane. Investigators concluded that human error was the main cause of the crash.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: ramzi
Posted 2010-02-20 10:36:56 and read 7386 times.

Quoting AVLNative (Reply 304):

I already read that and heard the story a few times. I would recommend we wait for the official release.  

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-02-20 12:45:00 and read 7304 times.

"ET409: Cabinet to release report on the crash next week:

Lebanon’s Information Minister Tarek Mitri told reporters following Thursday’s cabinet session that the cabinet will issue next week its comprehensive report on the crash of the Ethiopian Airlines plane of flight ET409 .
Mitri also said the families of the crash victims would be briefed on the reports prior to its release.
“I believe that everyone is prioritizing the concerns and questions of the families of the victims,” he said, adding that Prime Minister Saad Hariri wants to meet with the families of the victims .
The Boeing 737 crashed minutes after takeoff from Beirut International airport on January 25th . All the 90 passengers and crew on board were killed. The 2 black boxes were found and sent to France for analysis"

Just to avoid false stories.
Source: Yalibnan.com

-Aeolus

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aeolus
Posted 2010-02-20 13:01:10 and read 7333 times.

Also:
"ET409: Last words of the pilot ‘we’re finished, God have mercy on us’

The last sentence uttered by the pilot of the Ethiopian airliner that crashed last month off the Lebanese coast was, “We’re finished … God have mercy on us,” according to AS Safir newspaper .

The pilot was speaking in Amharic, a Semitic language spoken in North Central Ethiopia.

The newspaper was quoting an unnamed source from the French Investigation and Analysis Bureau (BEA)

An unnamed source from the French Investigation and Analysis Bureau (BEA) told As-Safir newspaper that based on a preliminary report “human error was the cause of the deadly Ethiopian Airlines plane crash”

Ethiopian Airlines Flight 409 crashed into the Mediterranean sea off the coast of Lebanon minutes after takeoff from Beirut airport morning of Jan. 25, killing all 90 people on board.

The investigation team arrived in Beirut on Thursday to report its findings to the Lebanese government after analyzing the contents of of the black boxes which were sent to Paris after they were retrieved by the Lebanese army commandos.

The team met with Prime Minister Saad Hariri and Public Works and Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi at the Grand Serail prior to Thursday’s cabinet meeting to inform them of the draft of the final report on the crash.

As Safir reported that the 2 black boxes flight data recorder ( FDR) and the Cockpit Voice Recorder ( CVR) revealed the details of the incident, and shows the sequence of events as follows:

The plane took off on January 25 at 2:37 a.m. and plunged into the sea at 2:41 a.m. Beirut time after rising to approx. 2750 meters( about 9000 ft) above sea level. It took the plane 40 seconds to hit the water .

The flight data revealed that the pilot asked the co-pilot to follow the instructions of Beirut airport control tower and acted as if his order will be carried out , but the co-pilot did not carry out the order or undertook an opposite action.
Believing that the co-pilot complied with the instructions, the pilot consequently lost control of the plane.
The investigators concluded that human error was the main cause of the crash.

The preliminary report said the jet remained intact until it hit water.

The Ethiopian Airlines , the Ethiopian government , Boeing company, the French Office for investigation , the International Organization for Aviation and the Lebanese government received copies of the preliminary report which will be an integral part of the of the report of the Lebanese government to the public next week."

-Aeolus

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-02-20 13:17:05 and read 7249 times.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 307):
The flight data revealed that the pilot asked the co-pilot to follow the instructions of Beirut airport control tower and acted as if his order will be carried out , but the co-pilot did not carry out the order or undertook an opposite action.
Believing that the co-pilot complied with the instructions, the pilot consequently lost control of the plane.
The investigators concluded that human error was the main cause of the crash.

Is it me or this doesn't make any sense ? First of all there's one pilot in command, who is it ?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-02-20 14:32:00 and read 7181 times.

Hi, guys !
It's the last phase of this accident and we'll know soon the preliminary report.
And, please forget the ghoulish part of all these articles, just keep in mind that we need to respect the dead and we're only interested in trying to improve the safety of air travel.
From all the signs we could read from the newspapers and the leaks from the people involved around the investigation, it's quite easy to surmise that the technical investigation has come out with a very definitive and accurate succession of events that led to the airplane hitting the sea.
I believe that this is, once again, a case of grave spatial disorientation.
What we could derive from this - and the previous - accidents is two-fold :
1/- it happens with a modern jet, close to the sea, at night...
2/- ...and after an unexpected manoeuvre - generally on ATC's requirement.

A modern jet has plenty of thrust, and slick aerodynamics, meaning a lot of acceleration, condusive to inner ear vertigo signals... Maybe it's time we review departure or arrival trajectories, looking for wider turns and shallower climbs / descents... I don't know...but I do remember once being forced into an overshoot from 400 ft and being ordered to execute a 180 turn, levelling off at 2000 ft. On a light 320, very comparable to a 738, the haze that blurred the horizon was enough to induce a vertigo... From that experience, I decided to always smoothen my trajectories doing away as well with high thrust settings.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2010-02-20 17:13:34 and read 7083 times.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 307):
The last sentence uttered by the pilot of the Ethiopian airliner that crashed last month off the Lebanese coast was, “We’re finished … God have mercy on us,” according to AS Safir newspaper .

This is a very concerning comment. To comment during flight that they are done for before even impact, suggests that they were giving up hope of recovery perhaps. They were either out of control, or perhaps suicide? If they were out of control, it reminds me of PSA 182's last comments. Did they perhaps lose a rudder or major flight control part? Does not rule out terror either, as a bomb will not necessarily blow an aircraft to pieces. Whatever the case is, it is obvious that something went terribly wrong.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: Larshjort
Posted 2010-02-20 18:15:35 and read 7015 times.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 310):
This is a very concerning comment. To comment during flight that they are done for before even impact, suggests that they were giving up hope of recovery perhaps. They were either out of control, or perhaps suicide? If they were out of control, it reminds me of PSA 182's last comments. Did they perhaps lose a rudder or major flight control part? Does not rule out terror either, as a bomb will not necessarily blow an aircraft to pieces. Whatever the case is, it is obvious that something went terribly wrong.

It could also be that they lost orientation and just seconds before impact realised where they were heading, at which point it would be too late to do anything,

/Lars

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-02-20 19:18:06 and read 6975 times.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 307):
We’re finished … God have mercy on us,”

I do not see where the idea of pilot error came from the above words. If there was a technical problem and the captain lost control of the plane he would have said the same thing.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 307):
The flight data revealed that the pilot asked the co-pilot to follow the instructions of Beirut airport control tower and acted as if his order will be carried out , but the co-pilot did not carry out the order or undertook an opposite action.
Believing that the co-pilot complied with the instructions, the pilot consequently lost control of the plane.
The investigators concluded that human error was the main cause of the crash


Very confusing statment. Now ACT gives altitude, heading and sometimes speed. even if the co-pilot did not follow instructions that will not cause the plane to crash unless he hit a mountain or similar. The polit was a very experienced pilot and it was still in take off mode unless there was a technical problem his attention will still be on flying the plane, does not see where any error of the co-pilot would have caused a crash. Something is missing here.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2010-02-20 19:22:56 and read 6986 times.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 311):
It could also be that they lost orientation and just seconds before impact realised where they were heading, at which point it would be too late to do anything,

/Lars

Yeah, but it is hard to swallow. PSA182 knew they had nothing left, and they had no control whatsoever. US Airways Hudson also knew it had no option but to ditch. Palm 90 as well, last words were similar. Those were the last types of transmissions or expected words to be heard by a crew in the last seconds.

In this case, I am under the impression that the last words were of a crew realizing that they had no control of the situation. Something terrible obviously happened, and I think it is more than loss of orientation. I am suspecting a loss of control. I could be wrong, but I just have a funny suspicion that it was more than crew error.

How about a microburst on takeoff? I recall a Pan Am 727 crashing on takeoff in the 70's. Could this be a possibility?

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: MSN007
Posted 2010-02-20 20:25:52 and read 6917 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 308):
Is it me or this doesn't make any sense ? First of all there's one pilot in command, who is it ?

I agree, it makes no sense what so ever.

Quoting Aeolus (Reply 307):
The preliminary report said the jet remained intact until it hit water.

So where is the explosion? I heard nothing about the mid air explosion on this report. Is it possible for a plane to engulf in fire because the pilot ignored ATC instructions? From the day this investigation was launched, I noticed Beirut is trying everything they can not to discuss fire and explosions. No report will be complete until this is well explained and I will keep the idea of a bomb on board or shot down by a rocket theory. Something horrific is clearly written on the bodies recovered so far.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2010-02-20 20:43:19 and read 6888 times.

Quoting MSN007 (Reply 314):
So where is the explosion? I heard nothing about the mid air explosion on this report. Is it possible for a plane to engulf in fire because the pilot ignored ATC instructions? From the day this investigation was launched, I noticed Beirut is trying everything they can not to discuss fire and explosions. No report will be complete until this is well explained and I will keep the idea of a bomb on board or shot down by a rocket theory. Something horrific is clearly written on the bodies recovered so far.

I have to agree with you. Beirut has been a haven for terrorists in the past. Why would we dismiss the potential for terror so early in a crash like this. I still wonder about a microburst though.

Topic: RE: Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 3)
Username: SA7700
Posted 2010-02-20 21:16:26 and read 6876 times.

Part 3 of this discussion will be closed for further posts. Please feel free to continue the discussion here:

Ethiopian Airliner Crashes Near Beirut (Part 4)

Any posts added to this specific thread, after the lockdown, will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.


Rgds

SA7700


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