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Topic: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: fab747
Posted 2010-02-22 03:35:15 and read 9914 times.

According to an article published in the Sydney Morning Herald, Australia is being innondated by carriers from the Gulf.
Why is Qantas not fighting back and offering new routes to match their competitors? Especially that Turkey Air has made a recent announcement to start flights to Australia!

Check this article:
http://www.glgroup.com/News/Qantas-N...-Of-Competitive-Reality-46731.html

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: surfandsnow
Posted 2010-02-22 03:51:24 and read 9863 times.

Quoting fab747 (Thread starter):
Why is Qantas not fighting back and offering new routes to match their competitors?

What routes could Qantas add that would be profitable? They certainly would lose boatloads of money flying BNE-AUH, MEL-DOH, or PER-DXB to directly compete. Flying to Europe requires a stop en route and puts QF at a competitive disadvantage (from a cost and product standpoint) against Middle Eastern and Southeast Asian airlines that aren't tying up their a/c for nearly as long. QF has smartly expanded its ops to East Asia and the Americas, two regions where it does have a competitive advantage against the competition. Makes sense to me!

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Sydscott
Posted 2010-02-22 04:11:23 and read 9780 times.

Quoting fab747 (Thread starter):
Check this article:
http://www.glgroup.com/News/Qantas-N....html

I don't know who wrote that article but it's one of the stupidest opinion pieces I've read in ages.

QF has heaps of routes, such as SYD-PEK, MEL-PVG, MEL-NRT, SYD-ICN, FCO, ATH etc etc to add back onto the route map before it gets to the Middle East.

All the Middle Eastern carriers have really done is absorb the growth in the Australia to Europe sector with all of their connections. By and large Australians are using Dubai like they use Singapore or Hong Kong. As a nice place to stop for a couple of days to break up the trip there or back. QF offers the same thing via SIN, BKK or HKG.

Besides which QF has a comprehensive codeshare with Etihad out of Australia to the Gulf region.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: VHMATHY
Posted 2010-02-22 04:29:48 and read 9696 times.

I think that in the future Qantas may fly to Europe via the Middle East. Only because its faster than going via Asia, not because there is any real demand for travel between Australia and the Middle East. The fact of the matter is that VERY few people travel just from DXB to SYD eg. On the EK and EY flights from BNE/SYD/MEL only a handful of passengers are bound for DXB/AUH, and more often than not they are Australian cabin crew using their staff travel tickets to go home.
There are thousands of Aussies living in the Gulf, but most of them work for EK and EY! (like me!)

On most flights, nearly every single passenger is bound for Europe or Beirut. There is no demand for travel between Australia and the Gulf, otherwise Qantas would be flying there! A lot of posters on here seem to think Qantas makes some strange decisions (not buying 777, removing first class etc) but seem to forget that they are the one of the most profitable airlines in the world...consistently. Doesnt that indicate that they know what theyre doing? The reason they dont fly to the Gulf is because there is no demand.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: RJ111
Posted 2010-02-22 04:35:15 and read 9669 times.

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
I think that in the future Qantas may fly to Europe via the Middle East. Only because its faster than going via Asia

No, it isn't.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: huaiwei
Posted 2010-02-22 04:37:56 and read 9660 times.

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
I think that in the future Qantas may fly to Europe via the Middle East. Only because its faster than going via Asia, not because there is any real demand for travel between Australia and the Middle East.

If that is the sole reason, than I fail to see why they would move. How much benefit would you gain from the time saved, compared to losses incurred by the drastic drop in O&D traffic you would have otherwise gained to the transit point?

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: VHMATHY
Posted 2010-02-22 04:58:02 and read 9550 times.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 5):
If that is the sole reason, than I fail to see why they would move. How much benefit would you gain from the time saved, compared to losses incurred by the drastic drop in O&D traffic you would have otherwise gained to the transit point?

Well seeing as though most of the O&D traffic is between Australia and Europe they probably wouldnt lose much, plus there is a huge demand from the Middle East to Europe. I think QF was smart to codeshare with EY as if they were to fly to AUH in the future they can possibly codeshare on some European routes which would be much more attractive to QF passengers as they can get to DUB/BRU etc with only one stop..and avoid LHR!

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-22 06:06:23 and read 9326 times.

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
Qantas makes some strange decisions (not buying 777, removing first class etc) but seem to forget that they are the one of the most profitable airlines in the world...consistently.

QF group has lost money, its JQ which made the QF group profitable.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: 9MMPD
Posted 2010-02-22 06:49:22 and read 9195 times.

As soon as QF get rights to fly daily to CDG I would expect to see them back there.

It will intresting to see the result of the 787-10 vs A350 order battle for QF. QF could then in theory build up their practicaly depleted European network (FRA being the only continetal European destianation). Maybe MAN, MXP, ZRH or MUC might make it onto the list with direct flights from the Changi hub with these new aircraft meaning pax would not have to back track out of Heathrow. I would think FCO, ATH, IST would be more for Jetsar and their 787s as these are more lesuire and F&R traffic.

Does QF have rights to carry traffic DXB - LHR?

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2010-02-22 07:03:09 and read 9126 times.

I always thought that once the 78s start entering QFs fleet we might see routes like NBO, CAI..maybe even LIM and GRU if the ETOPS issues can be worked around.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Eastern023
Posted 2010-02-22 07:08:03 and read 9093 times.

Did QF ever flew to IAD?

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2010-02-22 13:21:44 and read 8601 times.

Quoting Eastern023 (Reply 10):
Did QF ever flew to IAD?

No. HNL, SFO, YVR, JFK, LAX & YYZ (very briefly) have been their only North Americian destinations.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 9):
always thought that once the 78s start entering QFs fleet we might see routes like NBO, CAI..maybe even LIM and GRU

Don't hold your breath waiting! Well maybe GRU, but not for awhile.

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 8):
Maybe MAN, MXP, ZRH or MUC might make it onto the list with direct flights from the Changi hub with these new aircraft meaning pax would not have to back track out of Heathrow.

Still wouldn't be holding my breath!

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 8):
Does QF have rights to carry traffic DXB - LHR

DXB is totally "open skies" everybody has rights DXB-anywhere. It most likely still falls within the terms of the Australia/UK bi-lateral and will definably be within the Australia/EU agreement if it ever happens.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
QF group has lost money, its JQ which made the QF group profitable

QF Group MADE money. QF lost money, JQ made enough money that QF GROUP made money.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: 777ER
Posted 2010-02-22 13:47:59 and read 8513 times.

Any one able to confirm rumors about JQ launching USA services from AKL?

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-22 13:50:45 and read 8501 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 11):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
QF group has lost money, its JQ which made the QF group profitable

QF Group MADE money. QF lost money, JQ made enough money that QF GROUP made money.

That's basically what I said friend... 

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-02-22 14:03:06 and read 8419 times.

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
I think that in the future Qantas may fly to Europe via the Middle East. Only because its faster than going via Asia, not because there is any real demand for travel between Australia and the Middle East.

Why is it faster via the Middle East? It's roughly 200 to 300 nm further than via major Asian gateways and connection times don't seem to be shorter at points in the Middle East. HKG is almost exactly on the great circle route SYD-LHR.

SYD-LHR great circle 9188 nm
SYD-HKG-LHR 9189 nm
SYD-BKK-LHR 9228 nm
SYD-SIN-LHR 9274 nm

SYD-DXB-LHR 9473 nm
SYD-AUH-LHR 9492 nm
SYD-DOH-LHR 9514 nm

The advantage of routing via Asia is that all sectors have strong local O&D demand while traffic between Australia and the Middle East would be very minimal.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: VinnieWinnie
Posted 2010-02-22 14:03:25 and read 8417 times.

Do you call that an article???

I've always been surprised by the liberal approach adopted by the Australian Government towards UAE carriers. Compare it to Germany's stance on the subject and you see that no wonder that Qantas is not in the best position to fight on the kangaroo route!

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2010-02-22 14:16:01 and read 8366 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
That's basically what I said friend...

No it isn't! Go and reread your post. [nit pick, I know]

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: david_itl
Posted 2010-02-22 14:41:45 and read 8264 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 11):
Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 8):
Maybe MAN, MXP, ZRH or MUC might make it onto the list with direct flights from the Changi hub with these new aircraft meaning pax would not have to back track out of Heathrow.

Still wouldn't be holding my breath!

By the time JQ comes to MAN, there might not be that many pax for them to mop up given the huge increase of EY's capacity and the almost certain 200 seat increase in capacity by EK (be it throguh the A380HD or 3rd daily service). SQ seems to be ceding this market to the Middle East carriers.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: QFYMML
Posted 2010-02-22 16:07:07 and read 8099 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 16):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
That's basically what I said friend...

No it isn't! Go and reread your post. [nit pick, I know]

While we're nit-picking, in the latest lot of results, I believe each of the operating entities making up the Qantas Group made money including mainline.
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: 9MMPD
Posted 2010-02-22 19:23:10 and read 7842 times.

I was also thinking when the 787s eventually arrive DFW and maybe YVR?

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: EK413
Posted 2010-02-22 20:45:41 and read 7481 times.

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
On most flights, nearly every single passenger is bound for Europe or Beirut. There is no demand for travel between Australia and the Gulf, otherwise Qantas would be flying there! A lot of posters on here seem to think Qantas makes some strange decisions (not buying 777, removing first class etc) but seem to forget that they are the one of the most profitable airlines in the world...consistently. Doesnt that indicate that they know what theyre doing? The reason they dont fly to the Gulf is because there is no demand.

Very well said...
QF over the past 10 years have reported profit after profit while other carriers have been reporting losses during difficult times ( asian economic times, SARS, Sep 11, FLU out break etc... )
My opinion and that only I feel QF have done well considering the global position of the carriers hub.

However I still wish QF had purchased the B77W  EK413

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Zkpilot
Posted 2010-02-22 20:50:42 and read 7429 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 11):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
QF group has lost money, its JQ which made the QF group profitable

QF Group MADE money. QF lost money, JQ made enough money that QF GROUP made money.

QF would have made money if it wasn't subsidising JQ... and therefore JQ wouldn't have made as much money as a result.
By subsidising, I am referring to QF money buying JQ a fleet of shiny new planes whilst QF has pottered on with old 763s, 734s and 744s. QF could have bought a fleet of 777s replaced all its old 734s etc.
Old aircraft are more mx intensive than new aircraft so JQ has lower mx bills whilst QF has higher ones. Also QF does mx for JQ, a lot of the back of house stuff for JQ is done by QF also. If QF actually charged JQ properly for these then JQ would be making a lot less money and QF a lot more. On the whole the QF group would still be making the same amount of course.


Back OT now...
When the 788s finally arrive expect QF to do so expansion. One of the 1st routes I expect to see is SYD-YVR. I would not be surprised to see SYD-ICN or the return of SYD-PEK (although this might happen before the 788). Eventually I do expect to see QF fly to the gulf and team up with BA for this.... ie BA would fly MAN and LHR, possibly another UK and even an EU port on to a gulf state with QF then flying on to SYD direct and PER most likely (from PER connections to MEL and ADL are pretty easy).
JQ is likely to do other leisure destinations (ie ATH etc) but it is quite likely that QF will return to CDG or another Western EU destination (ZRH was rumoured).
I doubt QF will go back to 3x SYD-LAX flights now that the A380 is about, so 2x daily for SYD-LAX, possibly daily for SYD-SFO, I would think that the 788 gives the opportunity for QF to get into AAs hub in DFW direct. This give pax a bit more flexibility and saves them time. KUL is another destination that QF could serve.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2010-02-22 20:59:53 and read 7370 times.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 21):
would think that the 788 gives the opportunity for QF to get into AAs hub in DFW direct. This give pax a bit more flexibility and saves them time.

They have that opportunity now or before the B788 arrive, with the A380. It was in fact scheduled for this year, but with the GFC and the subsequent decline in traffic and deferal of some A380s I don't really expect it until 2012 now.

The only advantage the B788 would give them is a lower trip cost, hence need less pax to make it work, BUT, QF seemed pretty convinced that they could get enough pax for it to work with the A380. The power of the worlds second largest hub should not be ignored nor under estimated.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Zkpilot
Posted 2010-02-23 00:20:11 and read 6322 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 22):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 21):
would think that the 788 gives the opportunity for QF to get into AAs hub in DFW direct. This give pax a bit more flexibility and saves them time.

They have that opportunity now or before the B788 arrive, with the A380. It was in fact scheduled for this year, but with the GFC and the subsequent decline in traffic and deferal of some A380s I don't really expect it until 2012 now.

The only advantage the B788 would give them is a lower trip cost, hence need less pax to make it work, BUT, QF seemed pretty convinced that they could get enough pax for it to work with the A380. The power of the worlds second largest hub should not be ignored nor under estimated.

Gemuser

Quite right. The biggest issue with putting an A380 on the route is not whether it will sell, but how much it will affect LAX operations.
LAX is such an important market for QF and with the likes of VA and DL now flying it, QF needed to keep its shiny new toy on that route for the passengers. I guess it would be possible on the SYD run to have 1xA380 and 1x744.
The question is would a DFW flight result in QF flying say an extra 250 pax per day overall or not. If yes then I'm sure they will find a way to add a few more pax to the LAX flights and downsize one flight to 744 from A380, but if not then it is not a go-er as it would cannibalise the LAX hub too much (not to mention the LAX-JFK flight)

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-23 05:56:24 and read 5290 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 16):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
That's basically what I said friend...

No it isn't! Go and reread your post. [nit pick, I know]

Well, I think you got my point however.. 
Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 19):
I was also thinking when the 787s eventually arrive DFW and maybe YVR?

DFW and YVR are two markets I definitely expect to see with the B787's....In fact, if QF doesn't start SYD-DFW then I would expect AA to start DFW-SYD once they get their B787's.....

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: RJ111
Posted 2010-02-23 06:26:35 and read 5299 times.

That's if the 787 will be able to do SYD-DFW which is far from certain.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: ANstar
Posted 2010-02-23 06:44:57 and read 5279 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 9):
I always thought that once the 78s start entering QFs fleet we might see routes like NBO, CAI..maybe even LIM and GRU if the ETOPS issues can be worked around.

I dont expect QF to open many routes with their 787's. I would expect a fair few to replace current 767's and replaced the 33o's at Jetstar initially.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-23 06:59:45 and read 5313 times.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 25):
That's if the 787 will be able to do SYD-DFW which is far from certain.

If the B789 won't be able to do SYD-DFW with a decent pax and/or payload, that will be the least of QF's problems.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: RJ111
Posted 2010-02-23 08:04:21 and read 5193 times.

Well the specs are 8000nm-8500nm range. SYD-DFW is 7450nm, realistically you'd want at least 8200nm and probably the lot for it to be viable.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-23 08:13:13 and read 5173 times.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 28):
Well the specs are 8000nm-8500nm range. SYD-DFW is 7450nm, realistically you'd want at least 8200nm and probably the lot for it to be viable.

Sounds like its within the limits.....

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: RJ111
Posted 2010-02-23 08:20:56 and read 5157 times.

Considering i have just explained that it may well not be within in the limits. I am suprised you have drawn that conclusion.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: jetskipper
Posted 2010-02-23 08:25:27 and read 5149 times.

Wasn't ORD announced pre-911? If I recall correctly, it was going to be 4 times a week with Qantas metal via LAX.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: tayser
Posted 2010-02-23 08:35:08 and read 5111 times.

Yes ORD was going to be an extension of QF93/94 MEL-LAX-ORD-LAX-MEL

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-23 08:36:48 and read 5104 times.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 30):
Considering i have just explained that it may well not be within in the limits. I am suprised you have drawn that conclusion.

8200nm is within the 8000nm-8,500nm range......pending on QF's configuration for the B789.

Lets just say it can't do DFW-SYD, QF might go SYD-AKL-DFW route instead.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: DavidByrne
Posted 2010-02-23 12:26:51 and read 4956 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 9):
I always thought that once the 78s start entering QFs fleet we might see routes like NBO, CAI..maybe even LIM and GRU if the ETOPS issues can be worked around.

I'd be very surprised if NBO was right now in the picture given the current political instability there.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 21):
Also QF does mx for JQ, a lot of the back of house stuff for JQ is done by QF also. If QF actually charged JQ properly for these then JQ would be making a lot less money and QF a lot more.

Do we know for sure that QF doesn't have a "proper" internal cross-charging structure which debits JQ for services provided? I'd be very surprised if that was not the case - management should be very anxious to know exactly where they are making (or losing) their money, and rigorous internal cross-charging would be fundamental to creating that understanding.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 22):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 21):
would think that the 788 gives the opportunity for QF to get into AAs hub in DFW direct. This give pax a bit more flexibility and saves them time.

They have that opportunity now or before the B788 arrive, with the A380. It was in fact scheduled for this year, but with the GFC and the subsequent decline in traffic and deferal of some A380s I don't really expect it until 2012 now.
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 33):
Lets just say it can't do DFW-SYD, QF might go SYD-AKL-DFW route instead.

QF announced its intention to operate AKL-DFW with 744s (3x weekly IIRC) many years ago - and then it completely disappeared from further discussion. Anyone know what happened there?

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: CSTOE
Posted 2010-02-23 12:55:55 and read 4881 times.

What about South America? Is it intresting for Qantas?

I would love to see a GRU-SYD route (long one uhm...?)!  

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-23 13:25:58 and read 4808 times.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 34):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 33):
Lets just say it can't do DFW-SYD, QF might go SYD-AKL-DFW route instead.

QF announced its intention to operate AKL-DFW with 744s (3x weekly IIRC) many years ago - and then it completely disappeared from further discussion. Anyone know what happened there?

SARS.....

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-02-23 13:26:40 and read 4819 times.

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
Only because its faster than going via Asia, not because there is any real demand for travel between Australia and the Middle East.

Nope... Given the choice of stopover on SYD-LHR in HKG, DXB and SIN...
Via DXB is the longest...

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
SYD-LHR great circle 9188 nm
SYD-HKG-LHR 9189 nm
SYD-BKK-LHR 9228 nm
SYD-SIN-LHR 9274 nm

SYD-DXB-LHR 9473 nm
SYD-AUH-LHR 9492 nm
SYD-DOH-LHR 9514 nm

Now, here's something funny...
Let's start with asking the question...
Why is Qantas relying on SYD-SIN-LHR and not SYD-XXX-LHR (where XXX could be any of the current stops)???
There must be something about it... and there is...

When looking at SYD-LHR via air routes...
You get 9336.5NM excluding SIDs and STARs...
Where does that line take you? Have a look at the following:

Via HKG:
SYD-HKG = 4084.7NM
HKG-LHR = 5434.2NM
Totalling 9518.9NM
The problem here is the air routes in China... some nice kinks and detours here and there...

Via DXB:
SYD-DXB = 6529.9NM
DXB-LHR = 3075.0NM
Totalling 9604.9NM
This route takes you just to the west of Java and Sumatra, goes to India (Bangalore) and then Dubai.

Via SIN:
SYD-SIN = 3408.5NM
SIN-LHR = 5923.2NM
Totalling 9331.7NM
This is quite funny, because it's shorter than the non-stop. It's due to a kink in the Airway used over Singapore on the direct/nonstop...

Via DXB is still the longest...

I haven't checked but Via AUH would be longer because of the airway set up... and Via DOH, even longer...

But then, I haven't looked at the winds... they change all the bloody time so can't be bothered to factor them in.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 28):
SYD-DFW is 7450nm,

7454NM great circle... airways?

I did SYD-HNL airway (I tried airways to other Hawaiian destinations and got HNL as the shortest) HNL-SAN great circle (as there's an airway disconnect east of Hawaii until mainland USA) and SAN-DFW airway and got:

SYD-HNL 4415.4NM
HNL-SAN 2271.0NM
SAN-DFW 1031.8NM
Totalling 7718.2NM

Under similar convention with GC on HNL-SFO as shortest for SYD-ORD... I get SYD-ORD as 8120NM... if the specs are 8000 - 8500NM... via LAX is likely... for ORD and DFW... 787 or 380 or whatever else...

I don't see great incentive for SYD-DFW non-stop at the moment... you'd probably be carrying 20tons extra fuel on the 787 which you could have saved going 1-stop...

Just my 2 cents...

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2010-02-23 13:46:25 and read 4761 times.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 34):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 21):
Also QF does mx for JQ, a lot of the back of house stuff for JQ is done by QF also. If QF actually charged JQ properly for these then JQ would be making a lot less money and QF a lot more.

Do we know for sure that QF doesn't have a "proper" internal cross-charging structure which debits JQ for services provided? I'd be very surprised if that was not the case - management should be very anxious to know exactly where they are making (or losing) their money, and rigorous internal cross-charging would be fundamental to creating that understanding.

In fact most of the services provided to JQ by QF ARE provided on a "marginal cost" basis, not full costing. Do you know why? Because if they were not JQ would source those services else where or do them themselves. QF is a full cost legacy carrier(although getting better), JQ a LCC. QF cost would render the whole JQ thing pointless.

This was the brilliance of the JQ setup, Joyce had the authority, directly from the Group's board of directors to tell QF to get stuffed if they tried to pass their costs on to JQ. He used that authority quite extensively, at least in the early days, EVERYTHING was looked at in very full detail to determine where the best deal for JQ was. QF decided that marginal revenue from JQ was better than the zero that'd get if JQ did it themselves or went to an outside orginisation.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-23 13:51:38 and read 4739 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 37):

I don't see great incentive for SYD-DFW non-stop at the moment... you'd probably be carrying 20tons extra fuel on the 787 which you could have saved going 1-stop...

Excellent point there mandala499, but DFW does open some other airports not serviceable by LAX or SFO...such as LGA to name one. its a close call...but SYD-AKL-DFW would be a "go'....

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: RJ111
Posted 2010-02-23 14:16:21 and read 4637 times.

It sure will open up some destinations. But why would you fly SYD-AKL-DFW-LGA when you could just sit on the one stop SYD-LAX-JFK?

AKL-DFW has some Etops inconveniences too with 180.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2010-02-23 14:36:02 and read 4588 times.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 40):
But why would you fly SYD-AKL-DFW-LGA when you could just sit on the one stop SYD-LAX-JFK?

I debated that as well, but I do remember QF mentioning certain advantages flying to DFW over LAX/SFO. I gave LGA as one hypothetical example.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 40):

AKL-DFW has some Etops inconveniences too with 180.

I expect to see LROPS or an extended ETOPS in a few years.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: DavidByrne
Posted 2010-02-23 15:00:14 and read 4536 times.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 38):
Joyce had the authority, directly from the Group's board of directors to tell QF to get stuffed if they tried to pass their costs on to JQ. He used that authority quite extensively, at least in the early days, EVERYTHING was looked at in very full detail to determine where the best deal for JQ was. QF decided that marginal revenue from JQ was better than the zero that'd get if JQ did it themselves or went to an outside orginisation.

I can see the logic there, but where routes may be transferred from QF to JQ, the analysis would be quite complex, and public announcements on the relative profitabilty of the two entities have to be taken with a grain of salt if there is cross-subsidisation. Do we know whether the marginal costs JQ is paying QF are greater or less than the commercial rates they would pay if they went elsewhere? I assume that they are indeed less, or they would indeed have gone elsewhere . . . ?

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-02-23 16:15:03 and read 4421 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 39):
ut SYD-AKL-DFW would be a "go'....

That one makes more sense... but then, it ends up as a 2 stopper for SYD-AKL-DFW-XXX... you can already have SYD-LAX-DFW-XXX... so the advantage would be slim, if any...

I personally believe it's still better to leave the bigger destinations on SYD-LAX-XXX and the smaller ones can go SYD-LAX-DFW-XXX...
Instead of SYD-AKL-DFW-XXX... wouldn't be more practical to do send connecting SYD pax on SYD-LAX- and AKL pax on the SYD-AKL-LAX... then you can serve the bigger city connections on AA from LAX from both SYD and AKL... and send the "hillbilly connections" through LAX-DFW-XXX...

SYD-AKL-DFW, U're limiting yourself to 1 airframe capacity to connect on the US end... and with a smaller O&D market...

Do the SYD-LAX and SYD-AKL-LAX, and Ur having bigger O&D markets of 2 city pairs, plus connecting pax from 2 Cities from the southern end... If I'm an airline with enough airframes, I'd do this... and afterwards, study if the SYD-AKL-DFW can bring more cattle through the abbatoir... sorry, I mean can bring me more meat   

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Gemuser
Posted 2010-02-23 16:18:17 and read 4414 times.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 42):
Do we know whether the marginal costs JQ is paying QF are greater or less than the commercial rates they would pay if they went elsewhere?

JQ got the best deal available, you can be sure of that! Joyce was RUTHLESS on costs, I don't think RR spoke to him for years!  

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2010-02-23 17:04:20 and read 4349 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
study if the SYD-AKL-DFW can bring more cattle through the abbatoir...

You need EDTO 240 minutes to avoid a fly around on the AKL-DFW sector. I am sure that will come but right now I believe it takes 2-years operating experience with the engine/airframe combination to get it. Not sure what Boeing is expecting to get from day one. Of course the regulator has to concur and the carrier willing to treat every sneeze as if it is pneumonia.

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: MEA
Posted 2010-02-23 18:08:26 and read 4268 times.

I'd like to see QF add BEY to their network...

Topic: RE: Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2010-02-23 20:00:08 and read 4124 times.

Quoting MEA (Reply 46):
I'd like to see QF add BEY to their network...

They sortof have.. QF3900 QF3902 and QF3910 to BEY most days (code share on Etihad) . I'm sure they will look at the figures to see how many book on those flight numbers and maybe if the numbers look good, use their own metal or more likely JQ.


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