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Topic: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-04 04:41:29 and read 10070 times.

Secure Flight, the newest U.S. manifestation of the war on airline pax, has been extended to Canadian flights overflying the U.S. Previously, the U.S. no-fly list was provided to Canadian airlines overflying the U.S. (AC, WS, PD and charter carriers), who checked pax against both the U.S. and Canadian lists. Under the new scheme, details of pax on overflights must be provided to TSA 72 hours in advance (no last minute business travel?), and the brilliant analysts at TSA will determine who can board the Canadian flights.

See http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/wi...nadian+flights/2639893/story.html. There are similar stories in other Canadian papers.

I think Canada should respond by requiring all U.S. airlines overflying Canada (most flights to Europe, except from the southern east coast) to submit pax lists 72 hours in advance for approval by CATSA (Canadian equivalent of TSA). Every approved pax will have a beaver stamped on their forehead. In the event of an overflight having to land at a Canadian airport, any pax without a beaver stamp will be sent to northern Saskatchewan to count blackflies for 25 years.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: CNZ3
Posted 2010-03-04 05:02:24 and read 10017 times.

Dead Link.

Ottawa Citizen
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/rules+affect+Canadian+flights/2639099/story.html

National Post (from Montreal Gazette)
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2638313

I know it was discussed here when it was first proposed; I've done a couple of searches but can't find the thread. I'm personally against this for flights to the Caribbean and Europe, South America etc. It's good that domestic Canadian flights aren't required to have their passenger lists submitted though.

I think we all knew that this would come, but the main question is whether our government will do anything in reciprocity.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Voar
Posted 2010-03-04 06:10:12 and read 9899 times.

So if purely domestic flights in Canada are excluded, but international flights must be screened, why would a terrorist simply not just fly on a domestic flight, or even easier just fly on a domestic flight in the USA??? What a bunch of idiots.... I hope our government does the right thing and prevents this absurd intrusion in Canadian's rights from becoming law.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: SCCutler
Posted 2010-03-04 06:54:25 and read 9801 times.

Security Theatre of the Absurd.;

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: rwSEA
Posted 2010-03-04 07:06:12 and read 9788 times.

I hope Canada responds in kind with its own inane rules. The US has to get over this idea that it can employ it's own version of security theater on the rest of the world.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: thegreatRDU
Posted 2010-03-04 07:19:49 and read 9715 times.

And watch people continue to slip through the loopholes..especially on the US's side...

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Macsog6
Posted 2010-03-04 07:51:10 and read 9602 times.

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 4):
I hope Canada responds in kind with its own inane rules. The US has to get over this idea that it can employ it's own version of security theater on the rest of the world.

As an American, this exhibition of extra-territorial jurisdiction is getting embarrassing. I am all for tight security of aircraft as I spend a great deal of time on one, but to impose our opinions and judgment on another country, without such country's permission and agreement, is a bit hard to swallow.

I had hope my Canadian friends and family will be more understanding than I would be in Canada imposed their laws upon the US.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: 764
Posted 2010-03-04 07:52:15 and read 9593 times.

Unfortunately the US can impose such restrictions for flights through its airspace. Sure, it does not make any sense whatsoever, but then again what does when you're talking TSA....

Sadly, with the more populated areas of Canada being pretty far south, a lot of Canadian domestic traffic will pass throgh US airspace and detouring would cost a lot of extra time and fuel and hence be rather uneconomical.

On a side note, I heard a rather crazy rumor a while ago that claimed the TSA was planning to share the passenger lists with the Department of the Treasury to make sure no US citizens were on the Canada-Cuba flights. Because as we all know, that mean Cuba - that has produced a whopping zero terrorists - is such a threat..... Anyway, that was just a rumor, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: HotelDJRomeo
Posted 2010-03-04 08:01:06 and read 9561 times.

This is insane. It's going to cost travellers more money (everything involving the TSA increases costs) and cause many undue headaches for travellers (because everything involving the TSA does this).

The TSA is an inept, incompetant organization that does nothing to make air travel safer (and this latest policy proves that reasonably well).

The saving grace of the TSA was that I only have to deal with it when flying in the US.

Now I'm going to have to deal with TSA incompetance on an on-going basis, even when I'm not in the US? *sigh*

Quoting Kaiarahi (Thread starter):
no last minute business travel?

Or last minute travel of any kind. Bye bye last minute holiday deals, business travel, no more flying to visit a relative or friend who was just in an accident, etc etc.

Quoting CNZ3 (Reply 1):
I think we all knew that this would come, but the main question is whether our government will do anything in reciprocity.

I fully support reciprocity if this becomes law. I am hopefuly (perhaps foolishly) that our government can figure something out to avoid this actually coming into force; or at the very least trying to inject a little common sense into the equation.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2010-03-04 08:21:21 and read 9474 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Thread starter):
I think Canada should respond by requiring all U.S. airlines overflying Canada (most flights to Europe, except from the southern east coast) to submit pax lists 72 hours in advance for approval by CATSA (Canadian equivalent of TSA).

Trust me -- they already were. Canada seems to have issues with several airlines -- for instance EK.

This is simply tit-for-tat by the USA.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-04 08:24:00 and read 9472 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 9):
Trust me -- they already were.

What's your source?

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2010-03-04 08:37:58 and read 9388 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 10):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 9):
Trust me -- they already were.

What's your source?

Casual chatting with nice security people at YYZ over the Christmas holidays when everything had come to a dead halt there and some of us were sleeping on the floor at Pearson.

And also with nice RCMP folks at YYC in early January.

You may take it for what you will (or not   )

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-04 08:59:12 and read 9335 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
Casual chatting with nice security people at YYZ over the Christmas holidays when everything had come to a dead halt there and some of us were sleeping on the floor at Pearson.

And also with nice RCMP folks at YYC in early January.

You may take it for what you will (or not )

A big, fat NOT.

"Security people" on the ground at YYZ are private sector (Garda) providing contractual services to CATSA. They are not privy to watch list arrangements between the U.S. and Canada. And by definition, they know nothing about overflights, because overflights do not land at YYZ - they're overflights.

RCMP have minimal involvement in aviation security (except for airport policing, i.e. arresting people who have committed an offence, if they happen to be the responsible police force). Watch list data and activities are carried out by CBSA, CSIS, Transport Canada, and CATSA.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 9):
This is simply tit-for-tat by the USA.

Rubbish. Point me to any TC regulation that requires U.S. airlines OVERFLYING Canada to provide advance pax lists for screening by CATSA. If there's any tit-for-tat, it will be Canada responding to yet another U.S. attempt to impose its rules on Canadian carriers, despite Canada being a staunch ally on border and aviation security - Canada actually reacted faster to the DTW Christmas incident than the U.S. With friends like this ....

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: NorthStarDC4M
Posted 2010-03-04 09:53:42 and read 9241 times.

Quoting 764 (Reply 7):
On a side note, I heard a rather crazy rumor a while ago that claimed the TSA was planning to share the passenger lists with the Department of the Treasury to make sure no US citizens were on the Canada-Cuba flights. Because as we all know, that mean Cuba - that has produced a whopping zero terrorists - is such a threat..... Anyway, that was just a rumor, but I wouldn't be surprised.

And then the Canadian airlines would be required by Canadian law to NOT provide said information as it would be complying with the Helms-Burton Act... in violation of the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act of Canada... can we say fiasco that would reach Obama/Harper in seconds?

I'm not surprised the US is going ahead with this, but if they so much as mutter anything about whos on flights to Cuba to treasury they are going to cause a major (and i mean MAJOR) legal and diplomatic row.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: ACKattack
Posted 2010-03-04 10:50:23 and read 9157 times.

As an American who very much believes in our sovereignty and right to protect ourselves, I even believe this goes to far. The generally incompetent TSA should have no say over who gets on an intra-Canada flight. This is basically the TSA trying to remove some of Canada's sovereignty and I hope they stand up against the TSA. Also, this is going to do significant damage to Canada's economy, which is even worse.

Or this is the USA is getting retaliation for losing the gold medal men's hockey game.  

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2010-03-04 11:00:55 and read 9130 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 12):
"Security people" on the ground at YYZ are private sector (Garda) providing contractual services to CATSA

True.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 12):
RCMP have minimal involvement in aviation security (except for airport policing, i.e. arresting people who have committed an offence, if they happen to be the responsible police force).

Also true.

Sorry I am not able to give you more believable "official" tracking information.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-04 11:16:35 and read 9083 times.

Quoting ACKattack (Reply 14):
Or this is the USA is getting retaliation for losing the gold medal men's hockey game.

Yeah, but it was one of the best hockey games I've ever seen - pity someone had to lose. But your guys are young and most of them will be around for a couple of more Olympics.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-04 11:17:22 and read 9085 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Thread starter):
I think Canada should respond by requiring all U.S. airlines overflying Canada (most flights to Europe, except from the southern east coast) to submit pax lists 72 hours in advance for approval by CATSA (Canadian equivalent of TSA).

Canada please play hardball here! I give the US the benefit of the doubt in most cases but this goes too far and is useless in protection. Can't we just do what Israel does and be done with it because they know how to screen properly.

On flights to the US out of other international airports (AKL and BNE come to mind) they already have an isolated corner of the terminal where they do the exact same screening again that you do when through getting to the gates. And the security practices of Australia and NZ are not inferior to what the TSA does, they're just nicer to you.

If this goes through this better not just apply to Canada but any European airline flying to say MEX or CUN better have to comply as well because terrorists could just as well be on those flights as well.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-04 11:21:56 and read 9057 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 17):
If this goes through this better not just apply to Canada but any European airline flying to say MEX or CUN

My understanding is that the EU is playing hardball on this.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-03-04 11:51:15 and read 9000 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Thread starter):
I think Canada should respond by requiring all U.S. airlines overflying Canada (most flights to Europe, except from the southern east coast) to submit pax lists 72 hours in advance for approval by CATSA (Canadian equivalent of TSA). Every approved pax will have a beaver stamped on their forehead. In the event of an overflight having to land at a Canadian airport, any pax without a beaver stamp will be sent to northern Saskatchewan to count blackflies for 25 years.

I think I can support that. This will make the TSA look like blubbering idiots anyway and then the TSA will pull the rule sooner if not later.

Go for it. I'm with you, Canada!

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-04 11:59:18 and read 8971 times.

Quoting HotelDJRomeo (Reply 8):
Or last minute travel of any kind. Bye bye last minute holiday deals, business travel, no more flying to visit a relative or friend who was just in an accident, etc etc.

This policy is a bad idea for other reasons, but all that the 72 hour rule means is that the passenger manifest at that time must go to TSA. It does not mean that passengers may not book closer-in than 72 hours.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-04 12:08:20 and read 8937 times.

Quoting 764 (Reply 7):
On a side note, I heard a rather crazy rumor a while ago that claimed the TSA was planning to share the passenger lists with the Department of the Treasury to make sure no US citizens were on the Canada-Cuba flights. Because as we all know, that mean Cuba - that has produced a whopping zero terrorists - is such a threat..... Anyway, that was just a rumor, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Also they can redflag the thousands of Canadians that visit Cuba annually which we have every right to do. It is well known that Cuban officials will not stamp a Canadian passport (unless requested) when that person is entering Cuba to prevent a US border official from knowing that a Canadian has been to Cuba by seeing the stamp. However if we have to submit this flight information to the TSA then US customs can have a little chat with us whenever we try and enter the US.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: LHRBlueSkies
Posted 2010-03-04 12:25:38 and read 8885 times.

Do y'all remember when these lists were first requested from South American countries? They retaliated and forced US citizens to provide such info and oh boy did it kick off!

And let's be honest, these lists aren't exactly working, because look at the Delta flight ex-AMS over Christmas!

Oh Canada! Fight it!

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-04 12:32:46 and read 8849 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
This policy is a bad idea for other reasons, but all that the 72 hour rule means is that the passenger manifest at that time must go to TSA. It does not mean that passengers may not book closer-in than 72 hours.

You're right. However, it's likely to wreak havoc with on-line check-in and last-minute (e.g. at the airport) flight changes, because the rule states that airlines may not issue a boarding pass to a pax until the boarding pass has been approved by TSA. I'm also wondering if it will mean the end of electronic boarding passes (e.g. bar code on my Blackberry) which I use extensively, because each boarding pass must include codes issued by TSA. The rule also purports to impose legal disclosure obligations on pax outside the U.S.

I also wonder if airlines will discourage booking within 72 hours of a flight because of the extra administrative burden/cost of having to make multiple transmissions of individual data to TSA, instead of a block manifest transmission. Or maybe they'll impose a surcharge for bookings made within 72 hours to cover the additional TSA costs.

The full idiocy is set out here: http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/secureflight_final_rule.pdf

[Edited 2010-03-04 12:36:39]

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: chrisair
Posted 2010-03-04 16:15:29 and read 8686 times.

Quoting HotelDJRomeo (Reply 8):
Or last minute travel of any kind. Bye bye last minute holiday deals, business travel, no more flying to visit a relative or friend who was just in an accident, etc etc.


Not at all...

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 23):
You're right. However, it's likely to wreak havoc with on-line check-in and last-minute (e.g. at the airport) flight changes, because the rule states that airlines may not issue a boarding pass to a pax until the boarding pass has been approved by TSA. I'm also wondering if it will mean the end of electronic boarding passes (e.g. bar code on my Blackberry) which I use extensively, because each boarding pass must include codes issued by TSA. The rule also purports to impose legal disclosure obligations on pax outside the U.S.

As someone who travels all too often on tickets booked under 72 hours, I can assure you, there's absolutely no difference now that insecure flight has been implemented. I am able to book, check in online, reprint BPs at the airport, change flights, go standby etc without any trouble. Electronic BPs won't be affected either. Not that it pertains to this much, but the TSA has scanners that reads them at the checkpoints. I saw one this morning at PDX.

** Disclaimer ** I only wander around the US, so I can't with 100% certainty say that the Canadian system will be different. That being said, in my experience (and it's been very frequent since Alaska and Southwest implemented insecure flight last year), nothing is different.

I also think this is a dumb rule.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-03-04 17:36:44 and read 8812 times.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 24):
Alaska and Southwest implemented insecure flight

   Is this a typo? LOL!

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-04 18:38:41 and read 8612 times.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 24):

As someone who travels all too often on tickets booked under 72 hours, I can assure you, there's absolutely no difference now that insecure flight has been implemented.

I hope you're right. As to the rule, I was just imagining the reaction there would be if Russia or China collected similar data on every overflying pax, required that their security agencies approved the issue of every boarding pass, and required every boarding pass to have a code issued by their security agencies. Land of the free, indeed ....

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Delta763
Posted 2010-03-04 19:53:13 and read 8168 times.

Geez, what next? Overflight visas?

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-04 20:15:04 and read 8073 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 26):
As to the rule, I was just imagining the reaction there would be if Russia or China collected similar data on every overflying pax, required that their security agencies approved the issue of every boarding pass, and required every boarding pass to have a code issued by their security agencies. Land of the free, indeed ....

If Russia or China had been attacked with commercial airliners, I doubt there would be much response. As with my last comment, that doesn't mean it's a bad policy, but I'm not sure this is an example of American exceptionalism.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2010-03-04 20:15:14 and read 8068 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Thread starter):
Under the new scheme, details of pax on overflights must be provided to TSA 72 hours in advance (no last minute business travel?)
Quoting HotelDJRomeo (Reply 8):
Or last minute travel of any kind. Bye bye last minute holiday deals, business travel, no more flying to visit a relative or friend who was just in an accident, etc etc.

Of course not, all the above is not going to become suddenly impossible, giving out names 72 hours in advance allows them to do a pre-screening, names added later will be much fewer and will be screeened as well. We all know that every single flight has its bunch of missing passengers, last minute cancellations, missed flights/connections, re-routing, last minute changes etc...

Quoting 764 (Reply 7):
On a side note, I heard a rather crazy rumor a while ago that claimed the TSA was planning to share the passenger lists with the Department of the Treasury to make sure no US citizens were on the Canada-Cuba flights. Because as we all know, that mean Cuba - that has produced a whopping zero terrorists - is such a threat.....

That must indeed be what you just said, a rumor. As if Canada was the only gateway to Cuba anyway.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: CRJ200FAGuy
Posted 2010-03-04 20:26:34 and read 8024 times.

I am never one to support any TSA policies but Canadians need to realize one thing. They are as sovereign as the US will allow them to be. You can complain and whine all you want, but the truth of the matter is that Canada is entirely too dependent on the US to ever stand up to us. I am getting my stats from a Canadian I met on an overnight, so if they are wrong forgive me. Canada does 70% of their trade with the US. That doesn't exactly afford them the luxury of standing up to us.

On a separate note, I have one gripe with Canadians. Don't complain when you get on my plane that it is too small. It is the crowning achievement of Canadian aviation. Ours is the 747.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-04 20:44:45 and read 7914 times.

Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 30):
I am never one to support any TSA policies but Canadians need to realize one thing. They are as sovereign as the US will allow them to be. You can complain and whine all you want, but the truth of the matter is that Canada is entirely too dependent on the US to ever stand up to us.

We have done it numerous times and have got on just fine such as us not participating in Vietnam and Iraq. Remember you need us as well as we have resources that you need to even function and we can shut those off (we won't but we can).

And that smugness that we should fall in line because we are less powerful does not help the case and follow the US even when they have ideas we don't agree with is not the kind of country the US should be acting like right now.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Delta763
Posted 2010-03-04 20:56:25 and read 7858 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 31):
And that smugness that we should fall in line because we are less powerful does not help the case and follow the US even when they have ideas we don't agree with is not the kind of country the US should be acting like right now.

Why not? That's been our official foreign policy for years.  

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: chrisair
Posted 2010-03-05 00:47:20 and read 7213 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 25):
Is this a typo? LOL!

Nope. You've never heard of the TSA's insecure flight program? This program is SO safe, that I as a male, can say I'm an 18 year old female and there's no way anyone on the frontline at the TSA would know. I'm sure any tewwowist would be completely honest when booking their tickets and use their full name, real DOB and their correct gender...

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: LHRBlueSkies
Posted 2010-03-05 00:52:11 and read 7198 times.

Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 30):

And it's precisely this kind of attitude that really makes the rest of the world feel such affection for the US!

Quoting Delta763 (Reply 32):
Why not? That's been our official foreign policy for years.

Hoorraay!!! Someone with a real-world vision!!

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 31):
Remember you need us as well as we have resources that you need to even function and we can shut those off (we won't but we can).

Exactly! Canada is far more independent than many give her credit for.

All these travel rules simply go to isolate the US, not make you guys safer.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flig
Username: BN747
Posted 2010-03-05 03:26:38 and read 6947 times.

...oh that's just great...now Canada will be safe just like us.

..wait a sec....they've always been pretty safe, and manage to do it without employing anal scanning machines with your socks and shoes off. Why on earth are Canucks succumbing to this?

I can't wait for the US TSA to insist that the Mexican Gov't do the same...and about


10 million Alvarez's
15 million Gonzales'
17 million DeLeons'
20 million Fernandez's and
25 million Diaz's hit 'em ... the bungling fools at the TSA will have to quadruple in size and budget to sort it all out.

Look at us...tragic, the terrorist have already won. We are spending insane amounts of time, money, resources, man-hours to do absolutely nothing. The angry IRS bomber and his plane in Austin proved, where there's a will, it doesn't take much effort ...to find a way.

The scariest part is all those Americans who think that one day..they'll get all this 'surrendered' private information and these rights back. If you believe that will EVER happen... your are beyond clinical delusion.

BN747

[Edited 2010-03-05 04:25:43]

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2010-03-05 04:14:59 and read 6826 times.

I don't get it...America is living in a time when its government is gutting it like a fish,,,yet they so want to protect us when we fly...One more item...to all you terrorists out there...thanks a lot for blessing us with the TSA...nice job...Just how did you sneak them in, night drops or rubber rafts?...wheres the walll...ah...   ...Ok, I feel better.  

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Woof
Posted 2010-03-05 05:48:00 and read 6664 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
If Russia or China had been attacked with commercial airliners, I doubt there would be much response. As with my last comment, that doesn't mean it's a bad policy, but I'm not sure this is an example of American exceptionalism.

And where did those flights you elude to originate? The ONLY commercial airliners that have attacked continental US soil were US built, operated by US carriers on scheduled service between 2 US airports.

Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 30):
I am never one to support any TSA policies but Canadians need to realize one thing. They are as sovereign as the US will allow them to be. You can complain and whine all you want, but the truth of the matter is that Canada is entirely too dependent on the US to ever stand up to us. I am getting my stats from a Canadian I met on an overnight, so if they are wrong forgive me. Canada does 70% of their trade with the US. That doesn't exactly afford them the luxury of standing up to us.

On a separate note, I have one gripe with Canadians. Don't complain when you get on my plane that it is too small. It is the crowning achievement of Canadian aviation. Ours is the 747.

That very attitude quite probably explains why the US finds itself a major target for terrorist activity. Were your comments in jest or are you really that blinkered?

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-05 09:08:08 and read 6559 times.

Quoting Woof (Reply 37):
The ONLY commercial airliners that have attacked continental US soil were US built, operated by US carriers on scheduled service between 2 US airports.

AA63 and NW253 most certainly did not originate on US soil.

That being said, even if your thesis were correct, I'm not sure how it's relevant. We know that terrorists exploit holes in the security system, and foreign overflight is one such hole. Furthermore, we also do not know what intelligence the US government (populated today with much more level-headed people than it was for most of the time after 9/11) may have.

I don't think this policy is a good idea, but I'm also not convinced it's out of line.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Woof
Posted 2010-03-05 09:32:37 and read 6516 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
AA63 and NW253 most certainly did not originate on US soil.

Any neither made successful attacks on US soil. To reword my original statement slightly - The ONLY commercial airliners that have successfully attacked continental US soil were US built, operated by US carriers on scheduled service between 2 US airports.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: aircellist
Posted 2010-03-05 09:33:13 and read 6521 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 35):
Look at us...tragic, the terrorist have already won. We are spending insane amounts of time, money, resources, man-hours to do absolutely nothing. The angry IRS bomber and his plane in Austin proved, where there's a will, it doesn't take much effort ...to find a way.

The scariest part is all those Americans who think that one day..they'll get all this 'surrendered' private information and these rights back. If you believe that will EVER happen... your are beyond clinical delusion.

I am so glad to see an American write such a thing.

Trying to block all the "holes", as Cubsrules says, is in part what makes North Korea, among others, the country it is now...

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-05 10:41:45 and read 6444 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 35):
can't wait for the US TSA to insist that the Mexican Gov't do the same...and about

As I said before if this does end up happening then it better be for everyone that flies over US airspace and not just Canada because both Mexicana and Aeromexico operate flights that go to YYZ, YUL and YVR from MEX. LAN also flies to YYZ as well.

I do not believe Mexico is more secure of a country than Canada is when it comes to airport security and I say that with no disrespect to Mexico at all.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: magyar
Posted 2010-03-05 11:01:34 and read 6409 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 31):
We have done it numerous times and have got on just fine such as us not participating in Vietnam and Iraq. Remember you need us as well as we have resources that you need to even function and we can shut those off (we won't but we can).

You would be amazed how quickly they begin to suspect that you have a covert nuclear weapon program and close ties to terrorist organization! And the conclusion would be that the "Canada deserves a regime change" and "need to be thought of the great secret of democracy".

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-03-05 11:13:07 and read 6380 times.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 33):

LOL! I love it when you say "tewwoist"!   

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-05 15:49:36 and read 6209 times.

Quoting aircellist (Reply 40):
Trying to block all the "holes", as Cubsrules says, is in part what makes North Korea, among others, the country it is now...

But that's not what I said. Blocking every hole probably isn't a realistic goal, and it is thus an inappropriate goal.

But is it inappropriate to block the largest ones? Is it inappropriate to block a hole that intelligence says terrorists are about to exploit?

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-05 17:23:53 and read 6116 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
AA63 and NW253 most certainly did not originate on US soil.

No but they were going to the US where the passenger lists would have been made available to the DHS and the TSA and the call could have been easily made to to prevent potential from boarding these flights or at the very least getting extra attention.

The simple solution to this would be for the US to share its no fly information with organizations like MI5 or CSIS so that they can internally handle if potentially threatening people are boarding flights that overfly the US.

This gives what competent intelligence organizations that are friendly with the US information without letting the US government know where people departing Canada are going.

I might be cynical in saying this but I do not think it is the business of the US government to know as a Canadian citizen where I have been outside the US and if I have been or plan to go.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):
Is it inappropriate to block a hole that intelligence says terrorists are about to exploit?

But see these terrorists probably already know if they are going to put someone on these flights with the intention of causing trouble, they will get the proper paperwork and be able to slip someone through the no fly lists. As said nothing now would have stopped the 9/11 hajackers from boarding the same flights again today the only thing that would be different is that the passengers and crew would behave much differently during a hijacking and do whatever is necessary to stop the people.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-05 21:24:08 and read 6004 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 45):
But see these terrorists probably already know if they are going to put someone on these flights with the intention of causing trouble, they will get the proper paperwork and be able to slip someone through the no fly lists.

Correct - but by that logic, it's never appropriate to take ANY preventative security action, because terrorists can always find another way.

Do you believe that?

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-05 21:49:55 and read 5969 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):
Correct - but by that logic, it's never appropriate to take ANY preventative security action, because terrorists can always find another way.

Yes do security checks but I disagree that this is actually a preventative one and neither is the current liquids ban, taking your shoes off at security, or carry one restrictions. All of these restrictions were put in place after someone tried these means to blow up a plane so we are one step behind to begin with.

If we want to be preventative we need to be more like Israel in how to do things and actually read body language of people that you find suspicious and do background checks on the individuals flying within your country. Also I have no issues with air marshals on planes especially if its done Israeli style where they are seated near people of suspicion.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-05 22:04:38 and read 5952 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 47):
If we want to be preventative we need to be more like Israel in how to do things and actually read body language of people that you find suspicious and do background checks on the individuals flying within your country. Also I have no issues with air marshals on planes especially if its done Israeli style where they are seated near people of suspicion.

I think that's right, but that would require substantial perceived invasion of civil liberties, and I'm not sure Americans would go for it. It's a trade we may not (yet) be willing to make.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 47):
All of these restrictions were put in place after someone tried these means to blow up a plane so we are one step behind to begin with.

AFAIK, there have been no terror threats or attacks involving planes overflying US airspace. Am I wrong?

If I am correct, this may actually be a proactive measure - a welcome change if so.

I don't know that the Administration has specific information on which they are basing this action, but I do think they are far more likely to be taking this action because of some specific threat than the Bush Administration would have been.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: aircellist
Posted 2010-03-05 22:10:03 and read 5946 times.

cubsrule: I agree, i distorted your words a little bit: you did not talk about plugging all the holes. I admit I was a bit provocative with my comparison...

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 45):
But see these terrorists probably already know if they are going to put someone on these flights with the intention of causing trouble, they will get the proper paperwork and be able to slip someone through the no fly lists.

Correct - but by that logic, it's never appropriate to take ANY preventative security action, because terrorists can always find another way.

Do you believe that?

It's a game of the cleverest. If all doors are wide open, even the most stupid terrorist may succeed in hijacking a plane. If it is more complicated, only better-prepared and smarter ones will have a chance to succeed. So, it's worth making it harder.

Then, the question is how is it made harder? Come on... This new move is like: "If I know everybody in the world I will catch terrorists because... " Well, because what, precisely?

I guess there are areas of New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, hey, why not Chicago, that do not see policemen very often. Those are the places where somebody with bad intents could hide, and that person would be much closer to one's goal than hiding in Canada.

And then, the other week's attack on the IRS office, who saw that one coming? Was that guy on any list? How could it have been prevented by controlling Joe Canuck going visiting friends in Buenos Aires?

The only way to be certain that no plane will be hijacked ever again is to suppress airplanes altogether.

The next best, and I say that with my considerable cellist's authority about every subject    is to screen the passengers based on their behaviour, on the spot at the airport. That requires judgment, though.

... Which reminds me a story: Jim Corcoran, a popular Quebec anglo and francophone singer, was going to the States, once (don't remember if it was for a gig...). At the pre-clearance at Dorval, he has been asked by the immigration agent: "Do you plan to assassinate or attempt to assassinate the president of the United States?"... He told that story on the French CBC radio, quite a few years ago, and that was already a not-so-recent story. The interviewer and some listeners (including me) could not believe their ears.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-05 22:29:05 and read 5923 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
I think that's right, but that would require substantial perceived invasion of civil liberties, and I'm not sure Americans would go for it. It's a trade we may not (yet) be willing to make.

I don't think it will entirely as undergoing a background check is not a violation of civil liberties as many jobs especially government ones require one in the first place. The biggest issue is that Israel's system is very politically incorrect (they profile) which they make no excuse for and thats the big stumbling block implementing a similar system in the US, along with the cost.

If you look at Israel they are a very free and democratic state in terms of a lot of attacks and hostility they receive.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
If I am correct, this may actually be a proactive measure - a welcome change if so.

Maybe it is but this has been going on since Bush was in office and I think it would be easier to for the US government to inform CSIS, the RCMP and the CATSA of their intelligence so we can handle the threat ourselves since its on our soil.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-06 03:01:31 and read 5855 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
I don't know that the Administration has specific information on which they are basing this action, but I do think they are far more likely to be taking this action because of some specific threat than the Bush Administration would have been.

Don't forget, Napolitano is on record as saying the 9/11 attackers came from Canada and that the Canadian border requires strengthening to match the Mexican border. With friends like this ....

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):
But is it inappropriate to block the largest ones? Is it inappropriate to block a hole that intelligence says terrorists are about to exploit?

Blocking this "hole" is about as useful as doing cavity searches on 3 year-old children and 90 year-old grandmothers. Think about it - Canadians overflying the U.S., for the most part at a height of 35,000+ feet (except on the climb out from a few airports close to the border), must have their boarding passes approved by the demonstrably brilliant analysts at TSA - you know, the ones who work for a boss who thinks the 9/11 attackers came from Canada. With friends like this ....

Canada has watch / no fly lists which seem, if anything, to be more effective than the U.S. lists (no AA63 and NW253 involving Canadian aircraft or flights originating in Canada). Maybe TSA could simply share its intelligence with CATSA, instead of treating us as peasants who can't be trusted to carry out our own checks - we are, after all, U.S. allies with regard to aviation security, and Prime Minister Harper is on record as telling President Obama that U.S. security is Canadian security. We really and truly resent being told we're key allies and then told in the next breath that a U.S. agency with a track record of incompetence must approve boarding passes for Canadians boarding Canadian flights. With friends like this ....

If you want to block holes, try screening cargo. BTW, Canada is years ahead of the U.S. on that one. Or try improving access security in U.S. facilities (kid in the tower at JFK doing ATC comms, pax walking through security barrier at EWR and subsequent discovery that security cameras not working, etc, etc, etc). But stop treating Canada like second class peasants - because eventually we'll get really pissed-off.

[Edited 2010-03-06 03:10:23]

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: US330
Posted 2010-03-06 05:49:50 and read 5755 times.

Let me add my voice to those Americans who think that Canada should impose a reciprocal/tit for tat arrangement on US carriers.

Quoting 764 (Reply 7):
Unfortunately the US can impose such restrictions for flights through its airspace. Sure, it does not make any sense whatsoever, but then again what does when you're talking TSA

There's a reason why I refuse to call them anything but Toothpaste Stealing A-holes. TSA has proven to be chronically ineffective, and the laughingstock of American governmental agenices--which is quite an accomplishment. This is yet one more attempt by them to stay relevant, and claim they are doing their part to fight terror, when all they are doing is only creating an illusion of security.

My question, though, is why only Canada? Why aren't they also implementing the same protocol for flights on Latin American carriers who fly through US airspace on flights from Latin America to Canada? What about the EU as well?
I mean, when I think porous security, the first country that comes into my head is obviously Canada, and not some place like Mexico where the drug cartels have overrun parts of the country.  

Quoting Delta763 (Reply 27):
Geez, what next? Overflight visas?

Shhh. Don't give them any ideas. They already implemented a program for transit visas, which helped steer traffic away from US carriers who previously offered through services from Latin America to Asia/Europe.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2010-03-06 06:32:06 and read 5725 times.

IIRC NW253 involved a bomber flying from Nigeria to DTW via AMS.

Apparently the guy had a US Visa, despite his father warning the US and Nigerian govt's.

If a guy who is a known risk can not even be pulled for screening, then what change is there for all those unknown threats.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-06 06:32:12 and read 5726 times.

Quoting US330 (Reply 52):
My question, though, is why only Canada?

It does apply to all overflights.

Full text of the idiocy here: http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/secureflight_final_rule.pdf

It'd be interesting if Canada and the EU got together to impose reciprocal requirements on U.S. airline overflights. In order to operate from ORD to FRA, boarding passes would have to be approved by the security authorities of Canada, Ireland, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Luxemburg (I know the last 4 seem redundant, but the airline wont know the track 72 hours ahead of the flight). For a destination like VIE or FCO, it would only get worse. I suspect the adminstrivia and the cost of compliance would have a severe impact on operations.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2010-03-06 06:51:31 and read 5712 times.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8547329.stm

Concerning NW253, this might also be of interest.

Incidentally the aircraft was B-HIH.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: aircellist
Posted 2010-03-06 07:14:07 and read 5683 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 47):
If we want to be preventative we need to be more like Israel in how to do things and actually read body language of people that you find suspicious and do background checks on the individuals flying within your country. Also I have no issues with air marshals on planes especially if its done Israeli style where they are seated near people of suspicion.

I think that's right, but that would require substantial perceived invasion of civil liberties, and I'm not sure Americans would go for it. It's a trade we may not (yet) be willing to make.

Which perceived invasion of civil liberties that you are not enduring right now, or are not to endure pretty soon? Naked scan is not a trespassing of civil liberty? Background check of people that do not even intent to set foot on your ground is not a trespassing on civil liberties either? Oh, well, I forgot, this is mostly about foreigners...

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 51):
Canada has watch / no fly lists which seem, if anything, to be more effective than the U.S. lists (no AA63 and NW253 involving Canadian aircraft or flights originating in Canada). Maybe TSA could simply share its intelligence with CATSA, instead of treating us as peasants who can't be trusted to carry out our own checks - we are, after all, U.S. allies with regard to aviation security, and Prime Minister Harper is on record as telling President Obama that U.S. security is Canadian security. We really and truly resent being told we're key allies and then told in the next breath that a U.S. agency with a track record of incompetence must approve boarding passes for Canadians boarding Canadian flights. With friends like this ....

If you want to block holes, try screening cargo. BTW, Canada is years ahead of the U.S. on that one. Or try improving access security in U.S. facilities (kid in the tower at JFK doing ATC comms, pax walking through security barrier at EWR and subsequent discovery that security cameras not working, etc, etc, etc). But stop treating Canada like second class peasants - because eventually we'll get really pissed-off.

Could not have said it any better. Except, for me, the kid is a minor problem  

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-06 10:25:53 and read 5566 times.

Quoting aircellist (Reply 56):
Which perceived invasion of civil liberties that you are not enduring right now, or are not to endure pretty soon? Naked scan is not a trespassing of civil liberty?

The ironic part is that Israel and other security savvy countries do not have any desire for body scanners and whats to stop the next guy from putting an explosive device in their stomach or rectum.

Quoting aircellist (Reply 56):
Background check of people that do not even intent to set foot on your ground is not a trespassing on civil liberties either? Oh, well, I forgot, this is mostly about foreigners...

   and I do think that the US state department with now knowledge of every Canadian and American visiting Cuba through Canada will use this to give us grief at the US border or keep us out all together. Some American may support this action but does that really fly while saying you are the land of the free.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2010-03-06 12:44:14 and read 5485 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 57):
and I do think that the US state department with now knowledge of every Canadian and American visiting Cuba through Canada will use this to give us grief at the US border or keep us out all together.

I don't quite understand this argument that some are using. It is not illegal for a Canadian citizen to enter Cuba so how would the US govt 'give grief' when they have no jurisdiction over what a Canadian citizen (or any other) does whilst honouring the laws of their own country. I would certainly appreciate any information on this out of interest.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: evomutant
Posted 2010-03-06 13:20:45 and read 5453 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 58):
I don't quite understand this argument that some are using. It is not illegal for a Canadian citizen to enter Cuba so how would the US govt 'give grief' when they have no jurisdiction over what a Canadian citizen (or any other) does whilst honouring the laws of their own country. I would certainly appreciate any information on this out of interest.

Because the Helms-Burton act extends jurisdiction to anybody in the USA, whatever the nationality. It's a ridiculous law of course, and many countries (including Canada and the UK) have laws that make complying with it a crime, but it exists. If you are Canadian, and have done business in Cuba they will give you grief.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: auroralives
Posted 2010-03-06 13:33:36 and read 5431 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 58):
It is not illegal for a Canadian citizen to enter Cuba so how would the US govt 'give grief' when they have no jurisdiction over what a Canadian citizen

Further to evomutants comment above... the US does indeed target foreign executives (and their families) who have done business in Cuba.

From this referenced Economist article... http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-18347484.html

Quote:
The United States told three companies they could face sanctions for investing in confiscated property in Cuba. Under controversial new laws, Sherritt International, a Canadian mining and energy firm, STET, Italy's telecoms giant, and Grupo Domos, a Mexican conglomerate, could find that top employees and their families, and shareholders are denied visas to the United States.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-06 13:36:28 and read 5438 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 58):
It is not illegal for a Canadian citizen to enter Cuba so how would the US govt 'give grief' when they have no jurisdiction over what a Canadian citizen (or any other) does whilst honouring the laws of their own country.

If you have a Cuban stamp in your passport, you'll be interrogated at the U.S. border about what you were doing in Cuba, who you met with, who you are meeting with in the U.S., what you think of the Cuban government, etc, etc. The U.S. has seized the assets of U.S. subsidiaries of Canadian companies because the Canadian parent was trading with Cuba (even though the subsidiary was not). It has also banned executives and employees of Canadian companies doing business with Cuba from entering the U.S.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-06 13:38:32 and read 5432 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 58):
I don't quite understand this argument that some are using. It is not illegal for a Canadian citizen to enter Cuba so how would the US govt 'give grief' when they have no jurisdiction over what a Canadian citizen (or any other) does whilst honouring the laws of their own country. I would certainly appreciate any information on this out of interest.

The US can't stop a Canadian from entering Cuba but I would presume that with this legislation considering all Cuba bound flights overfly the US the TSA would have full knowledge of every single Canadian, American or anyone else that entered Cuba from Canada and can use this information however they please.

This is precisely why Cuban immigration officers will not stamp a passport unless requested to do so because if a US customs officer sees a Cuba stamp in a Canadian passport they are going to ask questions about it and could deny entry outright. Even though a Canadian or a British citizen etc. has not broken any of their laws.

This is the right of the United States of course but do you want to behave like Middle Eastern countries which do the same thing to a person whom has been to Israel before.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: US330
Posted 2010-03-06 14:05:29 and read 5376 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 62):
This is the right of the United States of course but do you want to behave like Middle Eastern countries which do the same thing to a person whom has been to Israel before

The hissy fit over Cuba is a Cold War era conflict that only survives because of politics. A majority of Americans honestly couldn't care less whether or not relations are restored with Cuba--the problem is that the small minority that does, the Cuban expat population, has an incredible amount of influence because Florida has traditionally been a swing state in presidential elections, and any president that supports restoring Cuban-US relations will automatically lose their support (both votes and funding).

Cuba may be run by a horrible, corrupt government, but it is not a state sponsor of terror, and companies who do business there should not be subjected to the same rules and regulations as those who do business in places like Iran.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-03-06 15:33:03 and read 5279 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 61):
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 58):
It is not illegal for a Canadian citizen to enter Cuba so how would the US govt 'give grief' when they have no jurisdiction over what a Canadian citizen (or any other) does whilst honouring the laws of their own country.

If you have a Cuban stamp in your passport, you'll be interrogated at the U.S. border about what you were doing in Cuba, who you met with, who you are meeting with in the U.S., what you think of the Cuban government, etc, etc.

As a sidenote, for the year 2008 (latest available data), Cuba was the 4th largest foreign travel destination for Canadian residents, after the USA, Mexico and U.K. Cuba was only slightly below the U.K. in the number of Canadian visitors and slightly ahead of France which was #5. 2008 was the first year on record where more Canadians visited Cuba than France.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2010-03-06 17:56:27 and read 5182 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 61):
If you have a Cuban stamp in your passport, you'll be interrogated at the U.S. border about what you were doing in Cuba, who you met with, who you are meeting with in the U.S., what you think of the Cuban government, etc, etc.

Cheers for the explanation there, and which is what I was curious about. Other than the normal 'paranoia' is there any valid reason why they should be interested in what a Canadian citizen does? I've been Cuba many times and have never been remotely asked about the stamps in both my British and Irish passports.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 62):
TSA would have full knowledge of every single Canadian, American or anyone else that entered Cuba from Canada and can use this information however they please.

Yes indeed, but I am extremely curios as to what purpose it would/should even interest them. Use the information for what?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 62):
if a US customs officer sees a Cuba stamp in a Canadian passport they are going to ask questions about it and could deny entry outright.

I assume you mean an Immigration Officer, as Customs doesn't inspect your passport. However, on what grounds can/could entry be refused outright in such a case?

Quoting US330 (Reply 63):
Cuba may be run by a horrible, corrupt government,

To be perfectly honest, much the same could be said of 'democratic' governments.

Quoting evomutant (Reply 59):
Because the Helms-Burton act extends jurisdiction to anybody in the USA, whatever the nationality. It's a ridiculous law of course, and many countries (including Canada and the UK) have laws that make complying with it a crime, but it exists. If you are Canadian, and have done business in Cuba they will give you grief.

Cheers for that info! Pretty shambolic, isn't it?

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2010-03-06 18:36:52 and read 5142 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 65):
Yes indeed, but I am extremely curios as to what purpose it would/should even interest them. Use the information for what?

The TSA will know what flights from Canada are bound for Cuba (dozens a day during peak season) and they can list all of the Canadians on those flights and transfer that information to the state department and can know who has been to Cuba and can ask these people about what they did there or deny them outright.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 65):
I assume you mean an Immigration Officer, as Customs doesn't inspect your passport. However, on what grounds can/could entry be refused outright in such a case?

I did mean an immigration officer, my mistake.

As for the grounds to be denied entry, simple you've been to an unfriendly country that the US has had an embargo against for 50 years and they can say they you are and enemy of the state and be refused entry. Or they could do it on the grounds of the fact that you might be sympathetic to the Cuban government. Who the US lets in is their business, they can refuse entry to a guy who decides to be a smart ass to the immigration officer.

Canada has denied entry to certain groups in the US such as members of the Westborough Baptist Church and George Galloway because we deemed the WBC as a hate group and Galloway has very controversial opinions on world affairs, were we right on doing that probably not as neither of the these groups/people are a threat to Canada but we decide who we let in.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2010-03-06 20:13:21 and read 5074 times.

This sounds like the US is becoming a "bully" to everyone. Canada, for many years has been a peaceful neighbor to the north of us. I think Canada should retaliate with a similar rule. Some flights to US cities (DTW for example) do fly over Canadian Airspace. I remember it being mentioned in here that the terrorist on the DL flight from AMS tried to blow up the plane 20 minutes from DTW so it would explode over US soil, but that would put them over Canada. I think Canada should definitely make the same rule "in the interest of their National Security".

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: L-188
Posted 2010-03-06 21:15:57 and read 5013 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 31):
We have done it numerous times and have got on just fine such as us not participating in Vietnam

Not a good example, more Canadians went south to join the US miltary then draft dodgers headed north. I still don't know why you decided to keep those cowards.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 35):
The scariest part is all those Americans who think that one day..they'll get all this 'surrendered' private information and these rights back. If you believe that will EVER happen... your are beyond clinical delusion

Take a note folks, I agree with everything that BN747 said in that statement. The US goverment isn't known for giving back rights.

Quoting aircellist (Reply 40):
I am so glad to see an American write such a thing

There is more then one of us out there.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 47):
If we want to be preventative we need to be more like Israel in how to do things and actually read body language of people that you find suspicious and do background checks on the individuals flying within your country

I can see it now, "Carnac the TSA body language reader"......Johnny would have had a field day with it. RIP.

Quoting US330 (Reply 52):
Let me add my voice to those Americans who think that Canada should impose a reciprocal/tit for tat arrangement on US carriers

As an Alaska depended on SEA-ANC flights I am reallly going to be screwed by reciprical requirements but I think that is the only thing that will make the TSA/US govt pull it's head out of it's 5th point of contact.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 67):
Canada, for many years has been a peaceful neighbor to the north of us

Pretty much true but I do remembmer the 1996 salmon war......The canadians can be pretty violent and take hostages when they can't figure out how to count fish.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-03-07 02:51:08 and read 4907 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 67):
Some flights to US cities (DTW for example) do fly over Canadian Airspace.

Pretty much every flight between the U.S. and Europe, except to/from the southeast, flies through Canadian airspace, and through the airspace of multiple European countries (e.g. Ireland, U.K., Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, etc etc.).

I'd like to see all those jurisdictions impose a reciprocal requirement on U.S. carriers, which would make it an administrative nightmare for them to operate flights to Europe. No boarding pass could be issued to a pax on a flight from ORD to FRA, for example, until the airline had obtained approval from security authorities in Canada, Ireland, U.K., Netherlands/Belgium/Luxembourg/France (because the airline wouldn't know 72 hours in advance which NAtl track would be used).


Quoting L-188 (Reply 68):
Pretty much true but I do remembmer the 1996 salmon war......The canadians can be pretty violent and take hostages when they can't figure out how to count fish.

That's because you guys were eating them faster than we could get our mitts off to count them. But how about those geese we sent down to ambush aircraft over the Hudson?

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2010-03-07 07:11:07 and read 4807 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 69):
Pretty much every flight between the U.S. and Europe, except to/from the southeast, flies through Canadian airspace, and through the airspace of multiple European countries (e.g. Ireland, U.K., Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, etc etc.).

I was actually talking more about US domestic flights, though I do agree with you, don't get me wrong. For example, flights between LGA and DTW overfly Canadian Airspace. Come on Canada, pin the TSA against the wall!

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: L-188
Posted 2010-03-07 09:37:09 and read 4727 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 69):
But how about those geese we sent down to ambush aircraft over the Hudson?

Great with orange sauce.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: aircellist
Posted 2010-03-07 11:29:40 and read 4654 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 57):
land of the free.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 68):
Quoting aircellist (Reply 40):
I am so glad to see an American write such a thing

There is more then one of us out there.

I'd guess so... It only seems the fearful voices tends to speak louder.

Topic: RE: TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Username: L-188
Posted 2010-03-07 19:16:57 and read 4505 times.

Quoting aircellist (Reply 72):
I'd guess so... It only seems the fearful voices tends to speak louder.

It isn't fear.....It is being directly affected by stupidity.


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