Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4736174/

Topic: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-03-06 16:55:55 and read 9366 times.

Continuation of Part I , which become too long:

The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation (by Aaway Jan 26 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2010-03-06 17:00:55 and read 9363 times.

So what route authorities were applied for, in summary?

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-03-06 17:06:18 and read 9346 times.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 1):
So what route authorities were applied for, in summary?

AA
JFK-HND 777
LAX-HND 777

CO
EWR-HND 777
GUM-HND 764

DL
SEA-HND 333
DTW-HND 744
LAX-HND 744
HNL-HND 744

HA
HNL-HND 2 daily 763

UA
SFO-HND 777

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2010-03-06 18:20:19 and read 9234 times.

If UA gets SFO-HND with the 777-200ER that plane is going to be PACKED all the time. People dislike the long trip from NRT back to central Tokyo and HND makes it much more viable to use taxi/limousine service.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: centrair
Posted 2010-03-06 22:48:28 and read 9055 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3):

If UA gets SFO-HND with the 777-200ER that plane is going to be PACKED all the time. People dislike the long trip from NRT back to central Tokyo and HND makes it much more viable to use taxi/limousine service.


true but that is all they will have till their A350s come on board. They are retiring the 744s. Better have a full and popular 777 that a not so full 744 on a not so popular route.

The waiting, even thought expidited, is driving me nuts. How much longer till initial route are granted?

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: MPDPilot
Posted 2010-03-06 23:22:28 and read 9008 times.

Do we know when they will release the winners? There were some dates mentioned in the last thread but some of those dates have already passed.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: FFlyerWorld
Posted 2010-03-08 12:05:02 and read 8633 times.

For those interested this is a decent overview of what's happening with each airline application and answers/replies, etc., etc. Looks like the last bit of communication was March 5th. I believe final replies are due today - March 8th.

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2010/ost20100018.html

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2010-03-08 15:40:47 and read 8463 times.

Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 6):
For those interested this is a decent overview of what's happening with each airline application and answers/replies, etc., etc. Looks like the last bit of communication was March 5th. I believe final replies are due today - March 8th.

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2010/ost20100018.html


Thank you for the information. What a bunch of defensive rhetoric.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2010-03-08 15:53:35 and read 8435 times.

My favorite line is from Continental's response to Delta:

Quote:
Delta's Seattle proposal shoudl be rejected out of hand. The entire Seattle-Tokyo market would nto even fill up half the economy cabin of Delta's A-330 aircraft and all the passengers could be accommodated in a Delta DC-9-40 with five seats left over.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: PHXtoDCAtoMSP
Posted 2010-03-08 16:34:12 and read 8349 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
My favorite line is from Continental's response to Delta:

Quote:
Delta's Seattle proposal shoudl be rejected out of hand. The entire Seattle-Tokyo market would nto even fill up half the economy cabin of Delta's A-330 aircraft and all the passengers could be accommodated in a Delta DC-9-40 with five seats left over.

What is even funnier about it is their inability to do math.

Continental claims 115 pax per day each way out of SEA, and says that all could be accomodated on a DC-9-40 (seating 110 people) with 5 seats left over. If they knew math, it would fill a DC-9-40 with 5 people sitting on the wing. Way to flub that one.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-03-08 19:22:33 and read 8227 times.

I like, in particular, a couple of parts from AA's answer that was filed today:

Excerpt of answer to Delta's application:

"Indeed, Delta's 21-page pleading has 20 separate references to JAL, 36 to oneworld, 16 to ANA, and 47 to Star. It has been observed, however, that "mere repetition or arguments...is insufficient,"...and that "no amount of pure repetitive assertion can make it so,"...Those observations apply to Delta here."   

Excerpt of answer to HA's application:

"Hawaiian's answer rivals Delta's in repetition. Just as Delta seizes on the ATI applications by American and Continental/United, Hawaiian seizes on the theme that unlike other applicants, it does not already serve Japan. Thus, Hawaiian is a "new entrant" offering a "new option"; "all of the other applications" serve Tokyo; Hawaiian is the sole "have not" among the applicants; it "does not presently serve Tokyo" and "does not offer any U.S.-Tokyo service"; Hawaiian will not experience diversion from existing Japan service; Hawaiian is the only applicant "with no service to Japan"; it has "no operations or investment at Narita"; Hawaiian operates "no service to Tokyo from Honolulu"; it is "a new entrant"; it offers "a new option", etc."   

I kinda found both of these to be amusing. But anyway, like others pointed out, AA (along with the other applicants) really seemed to go after DL more than any other competitor, and with good reason IMO.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: centrair
Posted 2010-03-08 20:14:41 and read 8157 times.

I never thought legal documents would be so much fun to read.

I would love to see it played out in a pentagonal cage....[ dream sequence with crossinds21 quote]

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 10):
"Indeed, Delta's 21-page pleading has 20 separate references to JAL, 36 to oneworld, 16 to ANA, and 47 to Star. It has been observed, however, that "mere repetition or arguments...is insufficient,"...and that "no amount of pure repetitive assertion can make it so,"...Those observations apply to Delta here.

"Just cuz you say so dun make it so...Booya!" added the black suit red-tie wearing lawyer as he threw the mic down to cheers and jeers of the well dressed corporate gallery. [ /dream sequence ]

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 10):
AA (along with the other applicants) really seemed to go after DL more than any other competitor,

I think it is only the beginning of that fight and this was just on paper. The next fight will be in actual US-Japan service between OneWorld and Skyteam.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-03-08 20:48:24 and read 8098 times.

Quoting centrair (Reply 11):
I think it is only the beginning of that fight and this was just on paper. The next fight will be in actual US-Japan service between OneWorld and Skyteam.

Yes, definitely. I'm looking forward to seeing what transpires in the next couple of years. Can you only imagine what would happen if, by some chance, AA got both frequencies while DL got nothing? Or, if DL got 2+ frequencies while AA got nothing?

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-03-08 20:50:25 and read 8092 times.

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 9):
What is even funnier about it is their inability to do math.

Continental claims 115 pax per day each way out of SEA, and says that all could be accomodated on a DC-9-40 (seating 110 people) with 5 seats left over. If they knew math, it would fill a DC-9-40 with 5 people sitting on the wing. Way to flub that one.

LOL. Over the years, I've noticed a distinct lack of professionalism in some of COs DOT filings while AA, UA, US, DL have been able to criticize their competitors while remaining completely professional.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
My favorite line is from Continental's response to Delta:

Quote:Delta's Seattle proposal shoudl be rejected out of hand. The entire Seattle-Tokyo market would nto even fill up half the economy cabin of Delta's A-330 aircraft and all the passengers could be accommodated in a Delta DC-9-40 with five seats left over.

What is your problem with DL anyway? There isn't a single other airline in the US that you take digs at the way you take digs at DL.

[Edited 2010-03-08 20:51:30]

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: centrair
Posted 2010-03-09 15:03:04 and read 7557 times.

Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 6):
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2010/ost20100018.html

On the front page of that site, it says "answer" for US-JAPAN allocations. Are these the actual results? It is only accessible with username and password.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-03-09 15:22:03 and read 7515 times.

Quoting centrair (Reply 15):
On the front page of that site, it says "answer" for US-JAPAN allocations. Are these the actual results? It is only accessible with username and password.

If you go to Part 1 of this thread, there is a link posted there to a US Government website where you can get all these for free. The link starts with www.regulations.gov. And no, these aren't actual "results"...they're just responses to the applications by various parties (including the airlines themselves).

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: mah4546
Posted 2010-03-09 15:38:46 and read 7462 times.

Quoting centrair (Reply 15):
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 6):
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2010/ost20100018.html

On the front page of that site, it says "answer" for US-JAPAN allocations. Are these the actual results? It is only accessible with username and password.

Unfortunately it will probably be until at least May that we hear the results, but maybe the U.S. will speed things up given the desire to have everything launched by October.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-03-09 20:31:07 and read 7207 times.

Another way to obtain the information about the docket

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Re...l#docketDetail?R=DOT-OST-2010-0018

In my view, seems that HA would be the one on the top of the list considering they are the new potential player. Question is if they will got 1 or 2 daily frequencies.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2010-03-10 00:27:34 and read 7056 times.

My pics:

UA SFO-HND, AA LAX-HND, DL LAX-HND, HA HNL-HND

1- Hawaii-Japan is a huge market
2- Let AA and DL fight over LAX
3- East coast/Midwest apps should not be awarded for the first round

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: traindoc
Posted 2010-03-10 01:25:02 and read 7037 times.

I arrived in NRT yesterday on CO 7. While taxiing to the gate, I saw 3 DL 747-400's, 1 767-300, and about 6 330's and 757's. So DL needs more slots to Tokyo? They are the 400 pound gorilla!

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2010-03-10 05:55:34 and read 6959 times.

Quoting traindoc (Reply 26):
I arrived in NRT yesterday on CO 7. While taxiing to the gate, I saw 3 DL 747-400's, 1 767-300, and about 6 330's and 757's. So DL needs more slots to Tokyo? They are the 400 pound gorilla!

Its a different airport. HND is much closer to central Tokyo, thus making it alot more desireable.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: EMB170
Posted 2010-03-10 06:23:45 and read 6897 times.

I'm going to bet that DL gets one set of slots. If for no other reason, DL has said that they would be happy to split their 7 weekly frequencies among the markets they've chosen. That makes me think that the DOT would want to spread the wealth as much as they could, and if DL would be willing to split it up, for example:

LAX- M, Th
HNL-Sa
SEA- T, F
DTW- W, Su

that they would get at least something.

I also think it's a given that HA will get one set of slots for no other reason that they are a new entrant. I also think AA will probably get the set they have applied for, as well. Whether they are given the go-ahead on LAX or JFK I don't know.

Would AA be willing to do a DL and split the difference- serve LAX 4 days a week and JFK the other 3?

As I see it the loser will either be CO or UA. Now that they have ATI (and their JV covers the Pacific as well as the Atlantic), and given that that ATI involves NH as well, I can't see the DOT allowing Star Alliance to monopolize US-HND slots.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: CODC10
Posted 2010-03-10 08:41:43 and read 6703 times.

Quoting traindoc (Reply 26):
400 pound gorilla

That's one small gorilla.  

I too believe that HA's application for the initial round of service should be rejected. Hawaiian had the opportunity to serve NRT in the past, but pursued a different course of action. Now that Haneda is on the table, Hawaiian projects to be able to fill 528 daily seats on flights spaced just a few minutes apart? Copious data show that leisure travelers are far less likely to pay a premium for airport convenience, so the impact of HND on NRT-HNL operations is likely to be smaller than its effect other business-oriented city pairs.

One of the four major US players to Tokyo should not be artificially blocked from competing at HND because the DOT saw fit to award service to a leisure-oriented market whose predominant customer base will be Japanese. I firmly maintain that the greatest competitive detriment will go to the one major US-Japan carrier (AA/CO/DL/UA) who loses out, and sees their existing (likely profitable) NRT services weakened because its national competition now offers service to a more convenient airport. HA stands to lose no established competitive position, since their presence in the Japanese market is nonexistent, and it is likely that they would receive further slot awards in subsequent cycles.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2010-03-10 09:59:58 and read 6566 times.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 33):
I too believe that HA's application for the initial round of service should be rejected. Hawaiian had the opportunity to serve NRT in the past, but pursued a different course of action.

If memory serves me right, the authority was from OGG to NRT not HNL - NRT. As I recall, it was based on the fact that the planned runway extension at OGG would be undertaken, but public outcry was such that the plans for the extension were shelved. Regardless, I don't believe it is that uncommon for an airline to apply for a route and then never launch service once the application has been approved. If routes applied for and never flown or quickly terminated once service was launched, then none of these applicants would be elegible.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: CO787EWR
Posted 2010-03-10 11:20:41 and read 6400 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 25):
3- East coast/Midwest apps should not be awarded for the first round

I believe NYC is a lock for a slot, the debate is whether AA or CO gets it.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: DFWEagle
Posted 2010-03-10 12:11:04 and read 6312 times.

First, let me say that I personally hope that Hawaiian gets a slot and I would much prefer to see them get into Haneda than anyone else (except AA).

However, like a few other posters here, I do think that some tough questions are going to be asked about HA’s application. Like why does HA specifically need to use Haneda for this service and not Narita? The advantage of HND is that it is closer to central Tokyo and reduces overall travel time. It stands to reason that the people who would get the biggest benefit from this are the time-sensitive passengers. I doubt that an extra hour or so travel time would matter to a group of happy Japanese tourists going on vacation to Hawaii. However, saving an hours time could be the most important factor to an American business man or lady flying to Tokyo for an important meeting.

Second, why has HA never expressed any interest before about serving Tokyo? They have had plenty of opportunity before. They suddenly only become interested in the market when there is a chance of getting a quick advantage over their competitors which have already served the market for years.

With open skies and the expansion at NRT, there will be plenty of opportunity for any US carrier to serve Tokyo (NRT). The HND slots are limited and valuable and will likely be allocated to routes where they offer the biggest benefits in comparison to Narita service, taking into account the needs and preferences of the passengers composition in each market.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-03-10 12:36:22 and read 6251 times.

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 43):
The HND slots are limited and valuable and will likely be allocated to routes where they offer the biggest benefits in comparison to Narita service

I think this is the key argument here and you hit it right on the spot. This isn't about providing service to Tokyo as a whole, but rather about service that provides the most benefits as compared to NRT. For this very reason, I also think that HA should not get the HND slot. There's no denying the fact that a HND-HNL route will increase tourism to Hawaii, if for no other reason than the extra capacity. However, an additional NRT-HNL route would probably increase tourism just as much. Given that the HNL-TYO market is mostly Japanese tourists, the benefits of flying to HND over NRT are minimal. Therefore, given that there are only 4 slots now, there is no need to waste one of them on HNL. HA had opporunities (and applied) to fly to Japan before, but chose not to do this. They could have (I think) been already flying to NRT if they wanted to, but chose not to.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: centrair
Posted 2010-03-10 14:55:10 and read 6165 times.

If HA wanted, they could start service to NGO or KIX tomorrow. I bet they could also get their one unused Maui-NRT route shifted due to a deficient facility that prevents them from operating the route. I doubt DL, NH or JL would put up much of a fuss if they decided to do this. I think one reason fir trying for HND is that landing there will not kill them. Better try fir something rather than nothing. HA is trying to grow and unlike US (china route) is actually ready to do the service.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: hjulicher
Posted 2010-03-10 15:17:12 and read 6129 times.

Let me put this out there..

How many business travelers originating in the US are even familiar with Haneda? Of course it's a large airport, but when business people who are flying to Tokyo look for flights, are they really going to insist on Haneda?

I feel that it will take a while before the general public realizes the benefit of Haneda as opposed to Narita. That said, business travelers will probably be the first to want the service, and then I have to wonder how business travelers from non-served areas will book their flights?

For this reason, I'd imagine that DTW would be great for getting all east coast connections.
Although, we still have to think about the time slots and how profitable these times will be for business passengers. I think that many are forgetting that the times are not at all desirable, although it does seem DL has made the timings at the DTW hub somewhat manageable despite the less than ideal arrival and departure times in HND. Here, arriving past 10pm isn't going to make HND more desirable than NRT since no one is rushing off to a meeting at this time.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-03-10 15:31:47 and read 6098 times.

Business or not business, no one believe that resorts, hotels and investments in Hawai are not supported by US money. So, yes, there's always business behind the leisure and not to forget as mentioned by many before, Hawai-Japan is the largest O&D and HA is the sole carrier without a flight to Japan. How many jobs are supported by the leisure market ? How many 401K and IRAs have their funds connected to investments in Hawai ....

All LAX and JFK based flights are business oriented ? I don't think so. So just need to think that HA is on the best situation to receive 1 slot.

I agree that JFK or EWR will got one, LAX or SFO will got another one, and i would say Guam or places in the northeast could be awarded the last one.

The big question for me is which legacy will not receive one frequency if HA got it.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: mah4546
Posted 2010-03-10 15:39:21 and read 6109 times.

LAWA (Los Angeles World Airports) looks to be taking sides.

It has filed a letter to DOT asking for the LAX award to go to American Airlines.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-10 16:06:23 and read 6023 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 47):
HA is the sole carrier without a flight to Japan.

To be honest, though, I don't know that HA's new entrant status should play in. This isn't a situation like CLT-GIG because HA, unlike US, has applied for and been awarded Japan frequencies before. Why should the fact that they did not operate them benefit them?

I understand that DoT and I are not on the same page here, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 47):
Hawai-Japan is the largest O&D

While relevant, that's not dispositive (see CLT-GIG or PHL-PEK, among others).

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: CODC10
Posted 2010-03-10 16:39:48 and read 5988 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 48):
It has filed a letter to DOT asking for the LAX award to go to American Airlines.

I wonder if this is the result of a lobby by AA, since it is unlikely that the NYC service will be granted to AA in lieu of CO.

Time will tell, but I think putting JFK as the #1 choice and LAX as the #2 is a shrewd play. AA/LAX is arguably the strongest case among the applicants for their secondary choice, and AA certainly has the network, facility, and customer base in the LAX market to make the route work.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-03-10 16:59:08 and read 5928 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 48):
LAWA (Los Angeles World Airports) looks to be taking sides.

It has filed a letter to DOT asking for the LAX award to go to American Airlines.

Very interesting.

Seems as though perhaps the storied excellent working relationship between AA and LAX continues to pay dividends for AA - much like their recent deal on the TBIT gates.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 50):
it is unlikely that the NYC service will be granted to AA in lieu of CO.

Agreed.

If one airline is to get a Haneda-New York Metro slot, it's most likely Continental, not AA. AA's comical claims about JFK being the preferred international business airport, less congested/delayed, etc. are just that - meaningless. CO's true hub (the only in the region) at EWR not only provides just as good an experience/convenience for business travelers, but also a breadth of connections unmatched by AA or any other airline in the area.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 50):
Time will tell, but I think putting JFK as the #1 choice and LAX as the #2 is a shrewd play. AA/LAX is arguably the strongest case among the applicants for their secondary choice, and AA certainly has the network, facility, and customer base in the LAX market to make the route work.

  

This may all have been game theory on AA's part from the outset:

First, AA - like all of us - could have guessed that CO would have asked for EWR. Besides being their primary/preferential international gateway, the schedule timing limitations made a Central Time Zone hub next to impossible.

Second, AA could also have reasonably guessed that somebody - UA or DL - would also apply for LAX-HND, regardless of what preference they gave it.

Given the above, by AA asking for JFK first, and LAX second, they may have made it appear that if they couldn't get their "first" choice of JFK, they might be able to garner support for "at least" getting LAX.

  

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-03-10 19:44:51 and read 5804 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 49):
To be honest, though, I don't know that HA's new entrant status should play in. This isn't a situation like CLT-GIG because HA, unlike US, has applied for and been awarded Japan frequencies before. Why should the fact that they did not operate them benefit them?
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 49):
While relevant, that's not dispositive (see CLT-GIG or PHL-PEK, among others).

Agree and respect your view. On last Brazilian allocation, DOT has decided on a new player (US CLT-GIG) and the big business market (CO IAH-GIG). But looking to 4 potential frequencies, can you see instead of 2, lets say 4 different approaches ?

a) New Player
b) Largest market O&D
c) Best Public Interest
d) Big Business Market

My impression Cubsrule is that HA will got the frequencies (at least 1) because it falls in at least 2 of 4 potential approaches. They were very smart in ask for 2 flights, i have to say.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: FutureUScapt
Posted 2010-03-10 20:03:50 and read 5740 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 52):
They were very smart in ask for 2 flights, i have to say.

With all respect, how do you figure that? There's absolutely no way that they would get 2, so frankly I don't really see the point unless they are simply trying to impress the DOT by showing their eagerness to serve the market or showing how bullish they are on the demand for HNL-HND.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 49):
This isn't a situation like CLT-GIG because HA, unlike US, has applied for and been awarded Japan frequencies before. Why should the fact that they did not operate them benefit them?

Weren't they awarded them to serve OGG-NRT? If so, that's remotely comparable, at best. If it was indeed for HNL-NRT, then I I believe you (and CO) make a valid point.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-10 20:16:01 and read 5715 times.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 53):
Weren't they awarded them to serve OGG-NRT?

Yes, though they surely could have moved them to HNL had they been so inclined. The NRT slots, had they secured them, would have worked equally well from either gateway.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 52):
My impression Cubsrule is that HA will got the frequencies (at least 1) because it falls in at least 2 of 4 potential approaches.

I do think they will get one pair, but I'm not convinced they should, just because of how scarce these slots are and the fact that NRT will shortly be basically open access.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-03-10 20:29:38 and read 5679 times.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 53):
With all respect, how do you figure that? There's absolutely no way that they would get 2, so frankly I don't really see the point unless they are simply trying to impress the DOT by showing their eagerness to serve the market or showing how bullish they are on the demand for HNL-HND.

In my personal view that's why they were smart. I'm sure there's no way to get 2, but they have a good case with the O&D and no current operation into Tokyo.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: HAL
Posted 2010-03-10 22:46:09 and read 5579 times.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 53):
Weren't they awarded them to serve OGG-NRT?
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 54):
Yes, though they surely could have moved them to HNL had they been so inclined.

No, actually we were not allowed to serve NRT from HNL, only OGG. And since the runway at OGG is too short to allow a flight to NRT, we couldn't use the authority. We go it at a time when the county and state were trying to get the permits to lengthen the runway there. But the deal fell through, and we were stuck with an authority we couldn't use.

HAL

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: Pohakuloa
Posted 2010-03-10 22:51:59 and read 5560 times.

I am going to venture into territory I probably should not here (mostly because of not knowing on my behalf).

Are the differences in Haneda and Narita to the Tokyo city area in any way similar to what Newark and JFK are to the New York City area? If comparing the two cities and their respective international airports, what are the similarities and differences? (convenience, distance from city centers, preference, others?)

If the flights arrival times are truly in the middle of the night, the case for business convenience seems a bit mute as far as I see it. Just the same, I believe the HND city pairings will include LAX and one of the New York area airports. The other two slots are up for grabs and could go anywhere. Here are my "left field arm chair CEO" guestimates on who and where:

Slot 1 to CO: HND - EWR
Slot 2 to AA: HND - LAX
Slot 3 to UA: HND - SFO
Slot 4 to ????

Slot 4 is the biggest unknown right now. If, IF it is given to HNL, then HA I believe will get it. Anywhere else and DL has the slot to LAX or DTW as I just don't see SEA winning out over these two cities. Would it be "unwise" for DL to compete into LAX against AA? Or would the DoT not ever consider multiple carriers in same city pairs given the very limited slots?

Feel free to blast holes in my "logic" and I welcome all positive or negative feedback.

Regards,
Pohakuloa

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: DFWEagle
Posted 2010-03-11 01:51:11 and read 5465 times.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 53):
Weren't they awarded them to serve OGG-NRT? If so, that's remotely comparable, at best. If it was indeed for HNL-NRT, then I I believe you (and CO) make a valid point.
Quoting HAL (Reply 56):
No, actually we were not allowed to serve NRT from HNL, only OGG. And since the runway at OGG is too short to allow a flight to NRT, we couldn't use the authority. We go it at a time when the county and state were trying to get the permits to lengthen the runway there. But the deal fell through, and we were stuck with an authority we couldn't use.

Since 1998, the US-Japan bilateral has permitted Hawaiian to serve Honolulu-Tokyo. There have been spare unrestricted US-Tokyo frequencies and spare carrier designations available for the whole time. HA was given OGG-NRT authority because that's what they asked for! If they had asked for HNL-NRT, they would have got that. Hell, they could have had them both if they wanted because there were so many spare frequencies just sitting there available.

The only thing that could have stopped them flying HNL-NRT would have been if they could not obtain NRT slots. But we will never know if it would have been a problem because they never even requested any slots at any of the NRT slot allocation conferences. AA and NW were awarded many of the additional slots they asked for at various points since 1998 so it is likely HA would have been too.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2010-03-11 08:45:42 and read 5170 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 48):
LAWA (Los Angeles World Airports) looks to be taking sides.

It has filed a letter to DOT asking for the LAX award to go to American Airlines.

Very interesting.

Seems as though perhaps the storied excellent working relationship between AA and LAX continues to pay dividends for AA - much like their recent deal on the TBIT gates.

And, DL's decision to squat on gates in T5 several years ago, when LAWA wanted to give some of DL's then-underutilized gates to other airlines, has burned them.

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: as739x
Posted 2010-03-13 06:35:16 and read 3617 times.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 39):

I agree with your first 3, but I do not believe that they'd give the 4th to DL to operate to LAX. I just do not see them giving 3 of 4 to California destinations, not this day in age! DL HND-DTW would have a better chance.

Quoting HAL (Reply 38):

What is the ruling or authority not allowing HNL-NRT? If HA is not given HND, maybe a lifting of this rule to allow NRT service to as least allow a new entrent into the Tokyo market?

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-03-13 07:53:43 and read 3547 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 42):
If HA is not given HND, maybe a lifting of this rule to allow NRT service to as least allow a new entrent into the Tokyo market?

NRT will allegedly be open once the "Open Skies" agreement enters into force, but there will still be the difficulty of securing slots (and, in fact, it may be even harder to secure slots since the pool of slots available to US carriers will shrink by about 75% through the separation of US carrier and OAL slots).

Topic: RE: The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II
Username: as739x
Posted 2010-03-13 07:59:54 and read 3543 times.

Interesting, well there is always the new airport!!!

New Tokyo Airport Opens: Ibaraki - Govt. Waste? (by OP3000 Mar 11 2010 in Civil Aviation)

 


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/