Hey Folks-

I just flew through STL on AA, MWA-STL-ORD and was just saddened at the complete emptiness of the "hub". I thought it looked empty before the hub shutdown, boy this place looked DEAD.

The only excitement when I landed in STL, was seeing an AA 777 at gate C-32 or 34, it had diverted from ORD the night before and was sitting there. I saw a bunch of cops still there.

There was 1 757, 2 S80 for AA in STL. No more American Connection signs anywhere in the Main Terminal that I could see.

F9/YX had moved to gate C-21/23 in C concourse from D. I believe Cape Air is also supposed to move too or is this not true? Word was Air Tran was moving over also?

AA's magazine still shows STL as a connecting airport, and for ORD it shows American Connection there too, very weird for me to see.

Southwest in E Terminal is busy and bustling as usual, and will continue to grow as they add more flights May 9th. WN has been preparing for the expansion by hiring more folks, so I was pleased to see this as well.

In the A Concourse, the CSC desk for United Airlines is gone, that was removed. For those wondering, this is what I am reffering to...



The desk underneath the sign is gone now.

I think this is it for now, any other STL flyers notice any changes?

Alex

Yes Cape Air and AirTran will be moving to the C concourse this summer...always good to see Southwest add employees. Do you know if Southwest will be adding any gates ( ie E2, E22, orE24)? Also I saw on Lamberts's website they are replacing the A, C, and B concourses roof and they have also begun replacing the airport signage as well.

Quoting stl1326 (Reply 1): Do you know if Southwest will be adding any gates ( ie E2, E22, orE24)

WN added gate E-4 back to accommodate the new flights on May 9th. We do not own E22, 24 anymore, it is also physically impossible to put a jet bridge there now. There are buildings on the ramp in front of those two doors.

WN will utilize 9 gates, E4, 6, 8 ,10, 12, 14, 16 ,18 and 20 for the 83 daily flights as of May 9th.

Alex

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter): Word was Air Tran was moving over also?

They will have to since I think that B is being torn down.

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter): I thought it looked empty before the hub shutdown, boy this place looked DEAD.

Welcome to life as a midsize midwestern city.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 2): WN added gate E-4 back to accommodate the new flights on May 9th. We do not own E22, 24 anymore, it is also physically impossible to put a jet bridge there now.

Ehhhh, I'm not so sure about that. The new customs bagge processing structure is there yes, but I think it was designed in such a way that jetways could still go there.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 4): Ehhhh, I'm not so sure about that. The new customs bagge processing structure is there yes, but I think it was designed in such a way that jetways could still go there.

I believe you are correct...I thought I have seen the jet-bridges at those gates before when the baggage processing structure was there. Although I think Southwest uninstalled the jet bridges at E2, E22, and E24 when they renegotiated there lease recently.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3): They will have to since I think that B is being torn down.

Really? I have no idea to tell you the truth I'm not around anymore.

Regardless, we've seen and been through the worst of the St. Louis aviation scene. Things will get better, but we just have to be patient as the economy turns around and we have a little more consolidation in the industry.

More consolidation = more opportunity & more opportunity for St. Louis to pitch what they have (lots of space at a decent sized metro with a decent business community).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3): Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter): Word was Air Tran was moving over also? They will have to since I think that B is being torn down.

Incorrect. It's only being closed off like D concourse.

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 6): Regardless, we've seen and been through the worst of the St. Louis aviation scene. Things will get better, but we just have to be patient as the economy turns around and we have a little more consolidation in the industry.

They'll get better, sure. Only because they can't get any worse.

What does STL have now? A token presence from AA, a healthy operation with WN, and no one else has anything really noteworthy. Who'd have thought this is what STL would look like in 2010, 10 years ago? Wow.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 7):

Then why leave it?

Quoting 777STL (Reply 8):

I wouldn't call it a token presence, rather about the same presence AA has at other spokes in its route system.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9): Then why leave it?

Consolidation. C is up and running with paying tenants with plenty of additional room. Why keep a barely occupied concourse open when you could shut it down and move them to another concourse that will keep operating.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9): Then why leave it?

Demolition costs money (more so when it is happening on an active airport). It'll be torn down when something better needs to go there.

Here is more news regarding Cape Air at STL, lots more good news as usual!

http://www.kirksvilledailyexpress.co...City-to-meet-air-service-providers

Cape Air is going to try to bid STL-IRK.

Cape Air at Quincy is a rocking success!
http://www.connecttristates.com/news/story.aspx?id=441284

Alex

Recently, I heard a radio interview with the new airport director, she said after the backfill of new flights by WN and others as well as the use of larger aircraft on the new service, the total number of seats out of STL will be down 12%. Not bad considering AA's deep cuts in service.

An observation: it seems every bus in the St. Louis Metro has a Southwest ad on it and I noticed an uptick of Southwest commercials during Cardinal's television broadcasts. I am encouraged to see WN advertising the new service.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 2): We do not own E22, 24 anymore, it is also physically impossible to put a jet bridge there now.

Here is a website that shows a picture of the baggage handling facility upon its completion and it shows the jet bridges at gates E22 and E24; so it is possible for Southwest to add jetways to these gates again if they needed to.

http://www.burnsmcd.com/portal/page/...e%20Handling%20System%20Automation

[Edited 2010-04-15 21:12:28]

Quoting stl1326 (Reply 14): Here is a website that shows a picture of the baggage handling facility upon its completion and it shows the jet bridges at gates E22 and E24; so it is possible for Southwest to add jetways to these gates again if they needed to.

Hmmh, they haven't been up there in over 3 years. They were taken off before I started at WN in STL, and have never seen them at STL since then.

Not to mention WN would have to buy the gates back from STL if they wish to use 22 and 24 again!

Alex

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11): Demolition costs money

True.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11): It'll be torn down when something better needs to go there.

So it will probably be there forever.   

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 15):

If I remember rightly, SW removed those jet ways and took them else where. I want to say to Pittsburg, but I don't remember.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9): I wouldn't call it a token presence, rather about the same presence AA has at other spokes in its route system.

Compared to what it once was - it's a token presence.

Baskin Robbins/Dunkin' Donuts Opens in E Concourse

Meal time or snack time, there’s a new destination to meet your cravings. It's the new Baskin Robbins/Dunkin’ Donuts restaurant in Lambert’s E Concourse. This is just the second Dunkin’ Donuts location in St. Louis. Passengers can line up for donuts and coffee, along with an assortment of other breakfast items. Hot sandwiches are also on the menu.

On the other side of the counter, customers can satisfy their sweet tooth with ice cream, shakes, sundaes and more.

Construction will soon begin on another Dunkin Donuts location (stand alone) in the A Concourse. That restaurant will open by early summer.

www.flystl.com

Very cool to see!

Alex

April 18th will see the last flight for F9's STL-CUN, until it resumes again for winter I assume?

This leaves USA3000 as the only airline operating to CUN.

Does anyone know where F9 will put the Airbus at? Could they add another STL-DEN, as WN will grow to 4 daily on that route.

Alex

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 19): Construction will soon begin on another Dunkin Donuts location (stand alone) in the A Concourse. That restaurant will open by early summer.

Where on A are they going to put it?

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 20): April 18th will see the last flight for F9's STL-CUN, until it resumes again for winter I assume?

Frontier's STL-CUN is presently scheduled to return on December 16.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 20): Does anyone know where F9 will put the Airbus at? Could they add another STL-DEN, as WN will grow to 4 daily on that route.

FAI, perhaps, or ORF. They're not adding another STL-DEN at he moment, they're not chasing Southwest.

However, in the presentation last week, the Republic CEO did say have some interest in de-hubbed cities such as PIT or STL, and that if opportunity arises they'll be there - not as hubs or focus cities, just good routes that may have been dropped by others.

mariner

[Edited 2010-04-18 11:21:16]

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 20): Does anyone know where F9 will put the Airbus at? Could they add another STL-DEN, as WN will grow to 4 daily on that route.

I would love to see Frontier expand its St. Louis service but the CUN flight was Saturday only. So the aircraft was used when it probably would have been sitting due to the decrease in airline service on Saturday's.

Also does anyone know when the Lambert is going to begin its $50 million renovation of the A and C concourses/Main Terminal ticketing hall and baggage area? I recall them stating sometime this summer or early fall but nothing has been said specifically.

Quoting mariner (Reply 22): However, in the presentation last week, the Republic CEO did say have some interest in de-hubbed cities such as PIT or STL, and that if opportunity arises they'll be there - not as hubs or focus cities, just good routes that may have been dropped by others.

I don't know how many of those there are here, to be honest. The best ones - SFO and BOS - have been picked up with by other airlines.

Quoting atrude777 (Thread starter): In the A Concourse, the CSC desk for United Airlines is gone, that was removed. For those wondering, this is what I am reffering to...

I like that NW DC-9 in the window.

Quoting stl1326 (Reply 23): Also does anyone know when the Lambert is going to begin its $50 million renovation of the A and C concourses/Main Terminal ticketing hall and baggage area?

They have been working on things for a while now. A has had a lot of work done to it in the last couple of years.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24): I don't know how many of those there are here, to be honest. The best ones - SFO and BOS - have been picked up with by other airlines.

He didn't just mean STL - he mentioned STL, yes, but in a list of others. PIT was one.

But I don't think it is a case of which routes have been picked up and which haven't - as an objective exercise - nor is it a case of wanting to establish hubs or even focus cities.

It is a case of what routes would fit into their developing network - where their passengers want to fly.

mariner

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24): The best ones - SFO and BOS - have been picked up with by other airlines.

Exactly, and there isn't a whole lot left to be picked up.

Quoting mariner (Reply 22): not as hubs or focus cities, just good routes that may have been dropped by others.

Republic adding a focus city in STL would be just dumb. WN is already there, the domestic market already has just about all it can hold, and MKE is a much more pleasant airport to use.

Quoting mariner (Reply 26): It is a case of what routes would fit into their developing network - where their passengers want to fly.

...and there aren't a lot of people wanting to fly to STL who couldn't before.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 18): Compared to what it once was - it's a token presence

I suppose, if you would say that anywhere AA does not have a hub has a token presence.

Also I have noticed that United has been using an A320 on its SFO-STL route for the last couple of weeks....I guess that's a good sign the route is performing well?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27): Republic adding a focus city in STL would be just dumb.

They're not planning to open a focus city at STL. Where did you get that idea?

mariner

Quoting mariner (Reply 29): Where did you get that idea?

I didn't. I was agreeing with you when you were saying that Republic would not be doing so.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30): I didn't. I was agreeing with you when you were saying that Republic would not be doing so.

Ah - sorry, I misread.

I guess the point is that there are a few odd routes out of STL - and PIT and RDU and other places - that may be attractive, even if another airline is already flying those routes. Better if the airline has dropped those routes, of course, but not necessary.

mariner

[Edited 2010-04-18 13:34:58]

Quoting stl1326 (Reply 28): Also I have noticed that United has been using an A320 on its SFO-STL route for the last couple of weeks....I guess that's a good sign the route is performing well?

It's been back and forth.

It is still scheduled as a A319, but some days it has an A320 scheduled. Prob adjustes the aircraft based on bookings and availability of the A319/320 at SFO.

Scheduled as an A319 tonight and overbooked by 4 for STL-SFO.

Alex

[Edited 2010-04-18 13:35:32]

Quoting mariner (Reply 22): However, in the presentation last week, the Republic CEO did say have some interest in de-hubbed cities such as PIT or STL, and that if opportunity arises they'll be there - not as hubs or focus cities, just good routes that may have been dropped by others.

I remember when St. Louis went to Frontier, right before the F9/YX - Republic deal to see if they'd have interest in starting a focus city when it became clear that AA was on the brink of shutting down the "hub" entirely. Little did they know that.....

If F9 were a stand alone airline still I'd say a focus city would make a lot of sense, but with MKE close by it makes very little sense. It's too bad to because I still stand by my belief that F9 dug its own grave with an over-dependence on Denver and bone-headed route planning (what was that SFO-LAX or LAX mini-hub about?). If anyone wants to research it, I was ranting about F9 route selection before things predictably went bad for them.

If they just would have made better route selection and made their product more visible we could still be talking about F9 as one of the model airlines in the industry. It's too bad because they'd have a terrific opportunity in STL right now.

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 33): It's too bad because they'd have a terrific opportunity in STL right now.

As others have suggested, most of the plum routes have already gone. And I'm not sure that Frontier should try routes like STL-LAX again - it was a dog last time.

I doubt you will see focus cities, in the generally accepted sense, beyond what they presently have. I do think you will see other cities with a tad more service.

mariner

Quoting mariner (Reply 34): As others have suggested, most of the plum routes have already gone. And I'm not sure that Frontier should try routes like STL-LAX again - it was a dog last time.

What he's saying - and I agree - is that had F9 opened a STL focus city a couple of years ago, they'd have had the opportunity to be on solid routes ex-STL like BOS, MSP, DCA, and LGA before WN.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35): What he's saying - and I agree - is that had F9 opened a STL focus city a couple of years ago, they'd have had the opportunity to be on solid routes ex-STL like BOS, MSP, DCA, and LGA before WN.

Yeh, I understand that. But the evidence that had - STL-LAX, eg - is that STL wasn't thrilled about them.

I wouldn't have been thrilled if they had done it.

mariner

Quoting mariner (Reply 36): Yeh, I understand that. But the evidence that had - STL-LAX, eg - is that STL wasn't thrilled about them.

Weren't WN and AA flying STL-LAX about 11x/day between them when F9 tried the route?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37): Weren't WN and AA flying STL-LAX about 11x/day between them when F9 tried the route?

WN only had 1 non stop for STL-LAX, so AA filled the rest with one F9 route as well.

Alex

Quoting falstaff (Reply 21): Where on A are they going to put it?

My guess is that it will be located in the old-Starbucks location, between gates A10/A12 and A14.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37): Weren't WN and AA flying STL-LAX about 11x/day between them when F9 tried the route?

I don't think it was ever that much. At its height AA was flying to LAX 4x, maybe, maaaybe 5x daily. I don't think WN ever reached that level of service on the first go around with STL-LAX.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37): Weren't WN and AA flying STL-LAX about 11x/day between them when F9 tried the route?

I can't swear to it, but I don't think it was that many. More importantly:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35): is that had F9 opened a STL focus city a couple of years ago, they'd have had the opportunity to be on solid routes ex-STL like BOS, MSP, DCA, and LGA before WN.

The presence of a Frontier hub surely would not have stopped Southwest from muscling in.

mariner

Quoting mariner (Reply 41): The presence of a Frontier hub surely would not have stopped Southwest from muscling in.

How do you know that? They didn't start BOS or MSP until AA announced plans to scale them way back. I don't think STL is that important to STL, not like DEN. They simply take the opportunities that are there.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 42): How do you know that?

DEN.

mariner

Quoting mariner (Reply 43): DEN.

That begs the question, doesn't it, of whether the DEN experiment is about DEN, about F9, or about UA?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44): That begs the question, doesn't it, of whether the DEN experiment is about DEN, about F9, or about UA?

I don't care who or what it is about - I know the effect of it. But my views are provocative - and that's a different thread.

For whatever reasons, Frontier didn't start a hub at STL and I don't think they will start a hub at STL, although they may - stress "may" - add a route or three at STL.

I don't know what Frontier's reasons were - I can only make a reasonably educated guess - but I agree with the result.

mariner

Quoting mariner (Reply 45): But my views are provocative - and that's a different thread.

I know what your views are (I happen to agree with them). That's why I don't understand your answer to my question.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46): know what your views are (I happen to agree with them).

Do you? I didn't think I'd ever posted my views - in this forum.  

As to the rest, I said:

Quoting mariner (Reply 41): The presence of a Frontier hub surely would not have stopped Southwest from muscling in.

The presence of a Frontier hub did not stop Southwest from muscling in (big time) at DEN.

mariner

Quoting mariner (Reply 47): Do you? I didn't think I'd ever posted my views - in this forum.

You seem to quibble a lot with those who argue that WN is out to get F9 in DEN... if that's not what you were referring to, I apologize.

Quoting mariner (Reply 47): The presence of a Frontier hub did not stop Southwest from muscling in (big time) at DEN.

It didn't. But I would argue that WN doesn't go around picking fights when there is no strategic reason to do so. WN left STL-LAX because it added nothing to the network, AA had more capacity, and the route wasn't working. STL was not (and is not) strategically important enough to WN for WN to fight an incumbent with a fair amount of capacity on a thinner route - especially where that incumbent has low enough fares that WN wouldn't have the opportunity to stimulate the market a lot.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48): You seem to quibble a lot with those who argue that WN is out to get F9 in DEN... if that's not what you were referring to, I apologize.

To be fair to you, my attitude may have changed somewhat since the auction, in view of all that has happened.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48): It didn't. But I would argue that WN doesn't go around picking fights when there is no strategic reason to do so.

I'm show biz, I believe in the old Hollywood rule - screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me.

A year ago, I probably agreed with your assessment of Southwest. I may be less charitable now, or less naive, or less - something.

mariner

Quoting falstaff (Reply 21): Where on A are they going to put it?

I'm relatively sure that the stand alone Dunkin Donuts (no Baskin Robbins) will take the former Starbucks location down past A12.