Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4778013/

Topic: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-15 09:27:25 and read 13123 times.

Slow week. The giant Fall cutbacks are looming. I would expect them to be loaded in the next 3 weeks if fuel keeps increasing.

This compares what is for sale THIS WEEK for the stated period versus what was for sale LAST WEEK...It does NOT compare to last year or now.

How to read:
ABE-MDT 3>2 APR means a reduction in one roundtrip from 3 to 2 for April only
ABE-MDT 3.8>2.7 APR-JUN This is the raw format of the data which sometimes I'm too lazy to retype. It means that over a month they were averaging a little less than 4 trips per day and now it's a little less than 3 per day. So, basically they cancelled 8 flights per week or so. Airlines are doing A LOT of non-daily ops now, so these fractions are pervasive.
ABE-MDT 4>6 MAY- means an increase from 4 to 6 roundtrips starting in May and continuing
ABE-MDT 4>6 MAY-JUN, 5>6 JUL means the change is only for the stated period May to June and then a different change for July in the same route

Please take it easy on any typos, there was a lot to type...



AA
MIA-TCB 4/WK>0 AUG-
STL-BOS 2>0 JUL-

AC
SFO-YYZ 4>5 JUN- VX announced approval for the route, AC's response

AS
These are basically all extended from mid-Aug seasonal end to Labor Day end
ANC-DEN 0>1 SEP
ANC-SFO 0>1 SEP
ANC-LAX 0>1 SEP
SEA-SIT 0>1 sep

CO
EWR-SJU 5>3 JUN-JUL 4>3 AUG 2>1 SEP-OCT

DL
ATL-BMI 4>5 AUG-
ATL-GSO 11>12 AUG-
ATL-PHF 6>7 SEP-
CVG-BWI 3>4 SEP-
CVG-IAD 2>3 SEP-
CVG-IND 4>3 SEP-
CVG-JAX 3>2 SEP-
CVG-JFK 1>2 JUN-
CVG-SBN 3>2 JUN-
DTW-BDL 6>5 AUG-
DTW-BUF 7>6 AUG-
DTW-MDT 6>5 AUG-
DTW-ROA 3>2 AUG-
HNL-PDX 5/WK>0 SEP-
HNL-SAN 1>0 AUG-
JFK-ORD 4>3 JUN-
LAX-KOA 5/WK>1 SEP-
LAX-LIH 5/WK>1 SEP-
LGA-MCO 6>5 AUG-SEP
MSP-BIS 6>7 SEP
MSP-BRD 2>3 SEP
MSP-DEN 6>7 SEP-
MSP-LNK 4>3 SEP-
MSP-SAN 4>3 AUG-
SLC-FCA 3>4 SEP
SLC-LWS 2>3 SEP
SLC-PHX 8>7 AUG-

F9
DEN-MSP 4>5 JUN-AUG (3 319, 1 318 & 1 190)

FL
FLL-LEX 3/WK>0 AUG-OCT

US
BOS-PBG 0>3 JUN-

WN
PHX-SAN 7>8 JUN-AUG

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: CALMSP
Posted 2010-04-15 11:06:08 and read 12541 times.

hard to believe that they would drop to 1 daily EWR-SJU flight.........but sure enough.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: laca773
Posted 2010-04-15 11:52:14 and read 12233 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
These are basically all extended from mid-Aug seasonal end to Labor Day end
ANC-DEN 0>1 SEP
ANC-SFO 0>1 SEP
ANC-LAX 0>1 SEP
SEA-SIT 0>1 sep

It's surprising to see ANC-LAX only at one daily vs two daily in previous years unitl after Labor Day.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
LAX-KOA 5/WK>1 SEP-
LAX-LIH 5/WK>1 SEP-

It looks like DL is doing the same with LAX-LIH/KOA as it does with LAX-CUN/PVR.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: beryllium
Posted 2010-04-15 11:57:44 and read 12197 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
HNL-PDX 5/WK>0 SEP-

Apparently, this one did not work for them at all.
AS was pretty quick to jump on this opportunity, though. (Or, is it DL leaving because of AS entrance?).
Well, PDX is AS's turf. They might have a better chance than DL here.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
HNL-SAN 1>0 AUG-

Another HNL route is ending up as a short lived experiment with a life span of just 2 months (June and July only).
I guess, bookings/yields have been disappointing...

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2010-04-15 12:09:18 and read 12071 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
CVG-BWI 3>4 SEP-
CVG-IAD 2>3 SEP-
CVG-IND 4>3 SEP-
CVG-JAX 3>2 SEP-
CVG-JFK 1>2 JUN-
CVG-SBN 3>2 JUN-

Gone are the days of 6x daily CVG flights... to just about everywhere except the other hubs. The CVG bleeding continues. Looks like SBN-CVG is now at the same flight levels as FWA-CVG (though SBN is two morning departures to CVG at 0600 and 1130, while FWA-CVG has an evening departure, 1725 in addition to 0610).

I'm bewildered why IND-CVG is still there... Don't 10-15% of IND pax come from the Cincinnati metro area anyway, and doesn't IND advertise in Cincy (much like they used to advertise in Fort Wayne)?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2010-04-15 12:34:44 and read 11915 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
CVG-BWI 3>4 SEP-
CVG-IAD 2>3 SEP-
CVG-IND 4>3 SEP-
CVG-JAX 3>2 SEP-
CVG-JFK 1>2 JUN-
CVG-SBN 3>2 JUN-

It looks like DL is just trying to play around with frequencies at this point without having to announce anymore cuts. I really do wish they would just get it over with already and de-hub CVG.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-15 12:45:11 and read 11820 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 2):
It looks like DL is doing the same with LAX-LIH/KOA as it does with LAX-CUN/PVR.
Quoting beryllium (Reply 3):
Apparently, this one did not work for them at all.
AS was pretty quick to jump on this opportunity, though. (Or, is it DL leaving because of AS entrance?).

I think DL is refocusing their West operations around LAX and SEA (and SLC). Keep in mind they will slap their code on PDX-HNL. I'm sure that transition was coordinated, even though that's no technically illegal. I'd bet money that DL's bookings will largely move to AS.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
I'm bewildered why IND-CVG is still there... Don't 10-15% of IND pax come from the Cincinnati metro area anyway, and doesn't IND advertise in Cincy (much like they used to advertise in Fort Wayne)?

I know why!!!! Since it's cheaper to fly from IND than CVG, the CVG passengers drive to IND and then fly back to CVG to connect. LOL  
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
It looks like DL is just trying to play around with frequencies at this point without having to announce anymore cuts. I really do wish they would just get it over with already and de-hub CVG.

It's gonna be a slow bleed just like PIT/STL/RDU/BNA/MEM. Oops, did I say MEM? That one hasn't happened *yet*. Seriously, though, I think MEM might make it a few more years, but its days are numbers. DL wants to be in big cities: NYC/ATL/DTW/LAX/SEA/MSP. I'm not even sure SLC fits long term either. I can imagine a DL-AS marger that puts the knife in SLC.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-04-15 12:46:35 and read 11806 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
ANC-DEN 0>1 SEP

This one has me scratching my head. According to your criteria, this begins in September?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2010-04-15 13:07:39 and read 11699 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
ANC-DEN 0>1 SEP

This one has me scratching my head. According to your criteria, this begins in September?

Maybe I'm wrong, but my interpretation is that the flight doesn't begin in September. It is extended into September because he wrote

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AS
These are basically all extended from mid-Aug seasonal end to Labor Day end

If they had ended in mid August, then in September there would have been 0 ANC-DEN flights. But because they've been extended through the end of Labor Day weekend then part of September will still have 1 ANC-DEN flight.

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-04-15 13:11:08 and read 11669 times.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 8):

Thanks. I was confused.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: SANFan
Posted 2010-04-15 13:50:09 and read 11474 times.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 3):
Apparently, this one did not work for them at all.
AS was pretty quick to jump on this opportunity, though. (Or, is it DL leaving because of AS entrance?).
Well, PDX is AS's turf. They might have a better chance than DL here.

The DL cancellation of PDX-HNL was known before AS announced the route but who knows what went on behind the scene or when... Remember that PDX-HNL has been served continually by NW (and now DL of course) for years.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 3):
Another HNL route is ending up as a short lived experiment with a life span of just 2 months (June and July only). I guess, bookings/yields have been disappointing...

The feeling is that fear of what oil prices will be at the end of summer is a primary reason for these HNL cancellations; I would be very surprised if advanced bookings were the main cause.... at least for SAN-HNL!

(BTW, there are threads discussing both SAN-HNL and PDX-HNL...)

bb

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: worldtraveler
Posted 2010-04-15 14:23:22 and read 11339 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
It looks like DL is just trying to play around with frequencies at this point without having to announce anymore cuts. I really do wish they would just get it over with already and de-hub CVG.

Given that DL has added frequencies for the summer, I'm not sure why you can't accept that they are going to take advantage of opportunities when they arise.

And why are you so interested in hearing that CVG is "officially dehubbed?"

In all likelihood there will never be such an announcement and since the definition of what constitutes a hub is very subjective, they can continue to call it a hub for years to come even after cancelling a whole lot more...;

but the point remains that DL will continue to operate CVG as a size that is sufficient to meet the local market and whatever connections can be profitably carried....

Quoting beryllium (Reply 3):
Apparently, this one did not work for them at all.
AS was pretty quick to jump on this opportunity, though. (Or, is it DL leaving because of AS entrance?).

your assumption is that DL intended to keep this as a year round route when it is very possible their intentions were to use it as a seasonal route from the very beginning....

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: LAXSTEW
Posted 2010-04-15 14:35:35 and read 11281 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
LAX-KOA 5/WK>1 SEP-
LAX-LIH 5/WK>1 SEP-

am i reading this correctly? down to once a week??

 !

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: SANFan
Posted 2010-04-15 14:49:08 and read 11183 times.

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 11):
your assumption is that DL intended to keep this as a year round route when it is very possible their intentions were to use it as a seasonal route from the very beginning....

PDX-HNL has been a daily, year-round route for a long time when NW ran it, and up until August, since it has been a DL route.

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 12):
am i reading this correctly? down to once a week??

No you are not; it is UP to 1x daily. Once a week would be shown as "5/WK>1/WK".

(BTW, Capitalization would make your posts much more literate and readable. And welcome to A.net!)

bb

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: Airport
Posted 2010-04-15 14:53:42 and read 11159 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
I can imagine a DL-AS marger that puts the knife in SLC.

No. No. No. No. And no. Sorry, I'm just incredibly weary of hearing this DL-AS merger everyone seems to push forward as if its the most logical outcome.

DL and AS are not merging. Not now. Not even remotely anytime soon. Merging with DL does very little for AS, because AS is one of the most financially secure airlines in the country. AS is not a cheap airline, either. They got that way by codesharing immensely with carriers that a DL merger would render incompatible. A DL-AS merger is not in the best interests of the company, management, employees, shareholders, and most importantly: consumers. It really is as simple as that.

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 12):
am i reading this correctly? down to once a week??

I think that means it's going daily.

Cheers!
Anthony/Airport

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: SlcDeltaRUmd11
Posted 2010-04-15 15:00:35 and read 11108 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
It's gonna be a slow bleed just like PIT/STL/RDU/BNA/MEM. Oops, did I say MEM? That one hasn't happened *yet*. Seriously, though, I think MEM might make it a few more years, but its days are numbers. DL wants to be in big cities: NYC/ATL/DTW/LAX/SEA/MSP. I'm not even sure SLC fits long term either. I can imagine a DL-AS marger that puts the knife in SLC.

Am i missing something here i havnt seen DL add major flights at LAX or SEA?? More cuts than ads recently

Extremely slim chance that SLC goes away for DL. Even if it did SEA would not be the reason.

DL is still finishing this merger there is no way they are merging with AS anytime soon. DL is not going to create a SEA hub on its own its too expensive and not worth it. DL is not in the financial position to open a new hub right now. Maybe a few Asian flights but they have NRT which is a gem they dont need a large Asian direct hub. Its not like SEA is underserved to Asia either its gonna be tough to compete with the better service of the Asian carriers.

SEA is a horrible geographical location and cannot be a huge connection hub for domestic/Mexico travel. SLC is a fantastic geographical location for a hub out west. There are no other hubs near SLC. If anything i think SLC is one of the safest DL hubs since it has the least competition geographically or other airlines. DL makes real $ at SLC they are not going to leave unless say theoretically frontier or somebody moves a hub there but theres no gate space as of now and again its expensive to move.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: LAXSTEW
Posted 2010-04-15 15:11:22 and read 11065 times.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 13):
No you are not; it is UP to 1x daily. Once a week would be shown as "5/WK>1/WK".

(BTW, Capitalization would make your posts much more literate and readable. And welcome to A.net!)

bb

thanks for the welcome.   also, use of all lower case letters doesn't reflect literacy IMO. pretty common on many forums. (even within this very thread.)

i'm still confused on the LIH/KOA situation...the flights are already daily, so what exactly is the change? *are* they going the way of PVR/CUN? these are my respites from the normal grinds in and out of ATL/SLC/JFK.....

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: Airport
Posted 2010-04-15 15:30:25 and read 10956 times.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 15):
Am i missing something here i havnt seen DL add major flights at LAX or SEA?? More cuts than ads recently
DL has recently added:

LAX-BDL 1x daily
LAX-CMH 1x daily*
LAX-RDU 1x daily*
LAX-SFO 4x daily

On top of that, service from DL's hubs to both LAX and SEA are increasing quite a bit this summer. In fact, SEA will see more flights from DL this summer than ever before. Hardly what I'd call cuts.

*Sunday through Friday

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 15):
SEA is a horrible geographical location and cannot be a huge connection hub for domestic/Mexico travel.

As a domestic connecting point, sure. But SEA also has a lot of business and a healthy amount of O&D traffic. That's where the codeshare with AS comes in. SEA is also by far the best connecting point to the State of Alaska, which isn't exactly a throwaway amount of traffic.

Also, if we're talking strictly geography, SEA is actually one of the best places for a Pacific hub. It offers by far a more direct routing than LAX or SFO to most of the United States. Don't believe me? Check out www.gcmap.com to plot the most direct routes. XXX-SEA-Japan/China/etc. will far more likely be less distance than XXX-LAX/SFO-Japan/China/etc.

DL has absolutely no need or reason to even attempt a domestic hub at SEA. But using the AS codeshare as feed, since they capture such a good percentage of the market (which will likely grow in the future as growing marketshare will be one of their main focuses for the next few years), building up a solid international network out of SEA makes more sense than what might seem on paper.

The only disadvantage SEA really has is that it doesn't have near the O&D traffic or yields on international routes that Los Angeles or San Francisco have to offer, but LAX and SFO also have a lot of competition. SEA may not grow a whole lot, but it's not going to shrink either.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 15):
. If anything i think SLC is one of the safest DL hubs since it has the least competition geographically or other airlines.

You are correct in that SLC is safe. It's a profitable, working hub for DL. But SLC faces a lot of competition as an East-West connecting point. A lot of the SLC traffic is connecting traffic, for travelers flying SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX/SAN/etc.-NYC/CHI/BOS/WAS/ATL/etc. SLC is a good option to connect in, but so is DEN, ORD, STL, MSP and a variety of other midwestern hubs, so therefore DL does face a lot of competition, but a lot of is indirect, from WN, UA, F9, AA, and so on.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 15):
DL makes real $ at SLC they are not going to leave unless say theoretically frontier or somebody moves a hub there

It's safe to say that F9 moving their hub to SLC is never going to happen. There's absolutely no logical reason to, none whatsoever.

Cheers!
Anthony/Airport

[Edited 2010-04-15 15:32:20]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: ElmoTheHobo
Posted 2010-04-15 15:34:33 and read 10921 times.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 1):
hard to believe that they would drop to 1 daily EWR-SJU flight.........but sure enough.

It's only cut for the Labor Day - Thanksgiving low travel period. Most airlines cut their schedules during that period.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-04-15 15:34:38 and read 10920 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
I think DL is refocusing their West operations around LAX and SEA (and SLC). Keep in mind they will slap their code on PDX-HNL. I'm sure that transition was coordinated, even though that's no technically illegal. I'd bet money that DL's bookings will largely move to AS.

I'll bet DL slaps a code on that

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 16):
i'm still confused on the LIH/KOA situation...

Yea i don't show 5x weekly at all. I see daily all summer.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: SlcDeltaRUmd11
Posted 2010-04-15 16:14:21 and read 10741 times.

Quoting Airport (Reply 17):
DL has recently added:

LAX-BDL 1x daily
LAX-CMH 1x daily*
LAX-RDU 1x daily*
LAX-SFO 4x daily

On top of that, service from DL's hubs to both LAX and SEA are increasing quite a bit this summer. In fact, SEA will see more flights from DL this summer than ever before. Hardly what I'd call cuts.

*Sunday through Friday

True true but Delta axed SEA-LHR and way too many routes out of LAX in the last 2 years to name here. They simply restarted a few O&D routes that could be profitable with a recovering economy I wouldn't say thats a sign for the future, yet.

[Edited 2010-04-15 16:14:58]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-04-15 17:42:43 and read 10483 times.

Quoting Airport (Reply 17):
You are correct in that SLC is safe. It's a profitable, working hub for DL. But SLC faces a lot of competition as an East-West connecting point. A lot of the SLC traffic is connecting traffic, for travelers flying SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX/SAN/etc.-NYC/CHI/BOS/WAS/ATL/etc. SLC is a good option to connect in, but so is DEN, ORD, STL, MSP and a variety of other midwestern hubs, so therefore DL does face a lot of competition, but a lot of is indirect, from WN, UA, F9, AA, and so on.

         and Delta is adding a good bit of seats to SLC with them moving more A32S out there from MSP.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 20):
True true but Delta axed SEA-LHR and way too many routes out of LAX in the last 2 years to name here. They simply restarted a few O&D routes that could be profitable with a recovering economy I wouldn't say thats a sign for the future, yet.

How long are we going to bring that up......I bet someone some where cut a route back in 1950 but i don't hear much about it now.  
Anyways Delta has/will be adding LAX-SFO,LAX-LAS,LAX-SAN,LAX-RDU,LAX-CMH,LAX-BDL and added seats to LAX-HNL,OGG,MSY,JFK,ATL,CVG,MEM,DTW,MSP and IND.

[Edited 2010-04-15 17:45:11]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: drerx7
Posted 2010-04-15 18:26:48 and read 10291 times.

UA is starting IAH-LAX in September with 1 daily CR7 per www.houstonspotters.net - can anyone confirm?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2010-04-15 19:27:12 and read 9860 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
I know why!!!! Since it's cheaper to fly from IND than CVG, the CVG passengers drive to IND and then fly back to CVG to connect. LOL  

You are right about IND fares being lower than CVG, and pax driving to IND and connecting in CVG. But shouldn't Delta try to cut off IND-CVG much like they did with DAY-CVG, to force Cincinnati pax to stay with flying directly from the CVG hub? If DL was serious about keeping CVG a hub, they would do exactly that.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2010-04-15 19:37:48 and read 9792 times.

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 11):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
It looks like DL is just trying to play around with frequencies at this point without having to announce anymore cuts. I really do wish they would just get it over with already and de-hub CVG.

Given that DL has added frequencies for the summer, I'm not sure why you can't accept that they are going to take advantage of opportunities when they arise.

not sure what you mean by this.

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 11):
And why are you so interested in hearing that CVG is "officially dehubbed?"

In all likelihood there will never be such an announcement and since the definition of what constitutes a hub is very subjective, they can continue to call it a hub for years to come even after cancelling a whole lot more...;



Not sure what you mean by this either. Re-read my post and you'll see I said nothing about an "official dehubbing" announcement. Rather I want DL to actually just go ahead and de-hub CVG and pull it down to a regular station. However, DL appears more interested in killing us slowly. If CVG is so unprofitable and is just a thorn in their side that they make CVG out to be, then just leave already and let CVG get started on building some post-hub air service with some WN, F9, maybe B6 or VX among others.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-15 19:52:14 and read 9780 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
This one has me scratching my head. According to your criteria, this begins in September?
Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 8):
If they had ended in mid August, then in September there would have been 0 ANC-DEN flights. But because they've been extended through the end of Labor Day weekend then part of September will still have 1 ANC-DEN flight.

LoneStarMike gets an A+. It gets confusing with service extensions which is why I added the note.

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 12):
am i reading this correctly? down to once a week??
Quoting SANFan (Reply 13):
No you are not; it is UP to 1x daily. Once a week would be shown as "5/WK>1/WK".

SANFAN also gets an A+. Thanks!

Quoting Airport (Reply 14):
No. No. No. No. And no. Sorry, I'm just incredibly weary of hearing this DL-AS merger everyone seems to push forward as if its the most logical outcome.

I really think it is. DL's #1 priority for HND was SEA. AS is slowly moving toward DL as an exclusive partner after years of being a gigolo. It all makes sense.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 15):
Am i missing something here i havnt seen DL add major flights at LAX or SEA?? More cuts than ads recently

You've missed a lot.

Quoting Airport (Reply 17):
On top of that, service from DL's hubs to both LAX and SEA are increasing quite a bit this summer. In fact, SEA will see more flights from DL this summer than ever before. Hardly what I'd call cuts.

I think you are on my side. I really do see this relationship deepening. If AS was really against it they wouldn't be inching toward being exclusive with Delta/SkyTeam. It's inevitable. I suppose it could be PDX that dies in such a merger and not SLC. After all DL has closed a PDX hub before.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 19):
Yea i don't show 5x weekly at all. I see daily all summer.

We aren't talking about Summer. It was set to decrease to 5/week in the Fall and now it isn't.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 23):
You are right about IND fares being lower than CVG, and pax driving to IND and connecting in CVG. But shouldn't Delta try to cut off IND-CVG much like they did with DAY-CVG, to force Cincinnati pax to stay with flying directly from the CVG hub? If DL was serious about keeping CVG a hub, they would do exactly that.

I was kind of joking. I agree the route makes little sense, but my guess is that it's there to provide better Western service from IND than SLC can provide.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: PHXtoDCAtoMSP
Posted 2010-04-15 19:55:26 and read 9762 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
Seriously, though, I think MEM might make it a few more years, but its days are numbers.

While I think that MEM was a big question mark, I think it has proved its place in the DL network.

Top DL execs have had very positive rhetoric on the hub (something that can not be said about their rhetoric regarding CVG for a very long time now).

It has a few other things going for it:

-Extremely low operating costs due to the FedEx hub, inexpensive facilities and cheap labor
-A now much larger frequent flyer base in the Southeast to draw upon
-Good location for thin markets in the Southwest (eg, AMA, LBB, MFE, DAL)
-Good overflow location for ATL (evidenced by increased service to big ATL markets like PHX, LAS, LAX, SFO and SEA)

Honestly, if DL wasn't happy with the hub they would have drawn down services a lot more than they currently have. MEM has certainly lost mainline service (to places like IND, MKE, STL, etc), but in terms of flights and destinations, it has done rather well since the merger.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-04-15 20:01:32 and read 9793 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
We aren't talking about Summer. It was set to decrease to 5/week in the Fall and now it isn't.

duh ok

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
I think you are on my side. I really do see this relationship deepening. If AS was really against it they wouldn't be inching toward being exclusive with Delta/SkyTeam. It's inevitable. I suppose it could be PDX that dies in such a merger and not SLC. After all DL has closed a PDX hub before.

If/when DL/AS merge PDX will be the one that dies, as it is mostly a QX hub now anyways. DL can then beef up SEA/LAX/SLC will the AC/ employees from a smaller PDX.

Quoting Airport (Reply 14):
DL and AS are not merging. Not now. Not even remotely anytime soon. Merging with DL does very little for AS, because AS is one of the most financially secure airlines in the country. AS is not a cheap airline, either. They got that way by codesharing immensely with carriers that a DL merger would render incompatible. A DL-AS merger is not in the best interests of the company, management, employees, shareholders, and most importantly: consumers. It really is as simple as that.

In that case it wouldn't be about AS. What would make Delta stronger and give them not one but two gateways for Asia on the west coast? Buying AS. DL is pretty much out of codes they can slap on AS routes due to section 1 of DALPAs contract.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 22):



UA is starting IAH-LAX in September with 1 daily CR7 per www.houstonspotters.net - can anyone confirm?

All i see is CO flights but that may still be true.....get it a week or so and see if it shows up in the OAG.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: Airport
Posted 2010-04-15 20:18:40 and read 9653 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
I really think it is. DL's #1 priority for HND was SEA. AS is slowly moving toward DL as an exclusive partner after years of being a gigolo. It all makes sense.

True, but that's more of a result of the fact that DL codeshare traffic jumped over the last couple of years, since they merged with NW, another very close AS partner.

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
I think you are on my side. I really do see this relationship deepening. If AS was really against it they wouldn't be inching toward being exclusive with Delta/SkyTeam. It's inevitable. I suppose it could be PDX that dies in such a merger and not SLC. After all DL has closed a PDX hub before.

DL's relationship with AS will certainly deepen over the next few years, but a merger (or even entrance into SkyTeam) is, and I emphasize extremely unlikely. AA is one of the sole reasons for this.

The reason AS is cozying up more with DL is a direct result of the fact that traffic and revenue from the DL codeshare has increased over 220% over just the last year. However, AA still carries more traffic and revenure (not by much but still more) than DL on Alaska. There's a lot of revenue to the table that that brings that AS would simply be foolish to give up for the sake of being just a little bit more cozy with one of the two. They already get almost all the benefits of entering into SkyTeam without actually entering it, thus maintaining their close and important relationship with AA. And there are so many reasons, from labor issues, seniority, and on and on that a merger simply wouldn't work for the interests of AS. I can lay it out if you really desire, but I just did yesterday in another thread, and I did after a long long debate with a friend of mine over a week ago, so you can kinda see why I'm a little weary when talking about it.  

Cheers!
Anthony/Airport

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-04-15 20:31:21 and read 9570 times.

Quoting Airport (Reply 28):
AA is one of the sole reasons for this.

AMR wont stop a merger with AS. More codesharing will pretty much be stopped by the DALPA contract(yay for SCOPE!!).
Plus how long does DL want to *give* that revenue. With 3 TPAC flights out of SEA it makes since to have AS give the feed, but does it with 4? 5? 6? 7? there is a point that DL will make MORE money buying AS than they do buy letting AS give most of the feed. If SEA and LAX keep growing Delta will, at some point, have to have its own feed.

Its kinda like the RJ battle, at what point does a station need mainline because it would make them more money. ATL would be burning money for Delta if it was all RJ, butit makes the most money, by far, in the network because of the mix they have. The big question is does the SEA/LAX network ever get to a point where Delta says "ok it would make more money in the long run to put 1-2-3B on the table, buy AS and that will make us more money than the way things are now.
Plus you have to look at the growth in SEA that could come because of Delta larger, and smaller aircraft. (ie. flights added with 50,76 seaters plus 757/767/777 etc etc.)

I do agree that AS wont be dumping AMR unless Delta buys them. IMHO we will see UA/CO merge, DL/AS merge "because of a UA/CO merger" and AMR and B6 tie the knot. Thats how i see this hole thing ending up in the next few years.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2010-04-15 20:37:55 and read 9524 times.

Delta

CVG-SBN 3>2 JUN-

You fail to mention that while Delta is cutting one SBN-CVG flight They are adding 2 SBN-DTW RT flights and re-establishing the afternoon SBN-MSP Roundtrip all with CRJ service.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: laca773
Posted 2010-04-16 01:38:10 and read 8753 times.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 22):
UA is starting IAH-LAX in September with 1 daily CR7 per www.houstonspotters.net - can anyone confirm?

Why would UA do this when their sister, CO has plenty of capacity in this market?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-04-16 01:45:04 and read 8750 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 31):
Why would UA do this when their sister, CO has plenty of capacity in this market?

Why not? US has a bunch of seats on LAX-PHL......
LAX is a hub and LAX-IAH would be a smart route for UA(I thought they already had it.....but i guess its just DFW)

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: laca773
Posted 2010-04-16 01:50:59 and read 8726 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 32):

Why not? US has a bunch of seats on LAX-PHL......
LAX is a hub and LAX-IAH would be a smart route for UA(I thought they already had it.....but i guess its just DFW)

You have a point, deltal1011man. I guess what I was thinking, why would one want to take an express flight, when they can get a much better product on CO.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-04-16 01:57:14 and read 8726 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 33):
You have a point, deltal1011man. I guess what I was thinking, why would one want to take an express flight, when they can get a much better product on CO.

Well one would hope that UA would put it in a slot that CO doesn't have a flight, or UA doesn't have a coded flight to IAH. Plus they may not have any CO IAH flights that link up well with a UA bank at LAX and see it as a good chance to start the route and CO wont have a s**t fit.

IIRC CO has added LAX-OGG also which UA has a pretty good number of seats in that market also, its all about what they bean counters think is best.       

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2010-04-16 05:35:16 and read 8316 times.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 30):
Delta

CVG-SBN 3>2 JUN-

You fail to mention that while Delta is cutting one SBN-CVG flight They are adding 2 SBN-DTW RT flights and re-establishing the afternoon SBN-MSP Roundtrip all with CRJ service.

Makes me wonder with all these cuts if FWA-CVG might get axed soon in a similar way (drop CVG, add more DTW/MSP flights...) I hope not, but CVG is losing flights like crazy, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
I was kind of joking. I agree the route makes little sense, but my guess is that it's there to provide better Western service from IND than SLC can provide.

DTW, SLC, MSP, or ATL can all provide far better western service from IND on DL than CVG. The only reason it's there is probably because DL is #1 at IND (heck, a SkyClub is opening soon) and DL feels that it needs to provide service from IND to all of their hubs and focus cities, CVG included.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2010-04-16 05:44:00 and read 8283 times.

"It looks like DL is just trying to play around with frequencies at this point without having to announce anymore cuts. I really do wish they would just get it over with already and de-hub CVG."

Why???? Is there a hurry to be the next ghost airport like PIT or STL?

Do you think another airline is going to come in and add 50+ flights a day? Because that is probably not going to happen.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-16 07:27:49 and read 7930 times.

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 26):
Honestly, if DL wasn't happy with the hub they would have drawn down services a lot more than they currently have.

I don't think so. DL is getting rid of CVG right now. There is no need to take down two hubs at the same time. They will probably evaluate if MEM improves with the demise of CVG. They may recover that traffic over MEM, but I think it's pretty clearly moving to DTW.

As for the costs of MEM as a hub. It's true that it is "cheap" because Fedex pays a lot of the bills, but what prevents it from being cheap is the structure of the hub. They are running a 3 or 4 bank hub with an enormous number of gates and huge gaps in between flights that is very expensive for labor. Additionally, the average aircraft size is the smallest of any DL hub and thus the cost per seat is gonna be higher just from that. After factoring all that in, it's probably their most expensive hub.

I suspect MEM will be seriously looked at in for removal in the next 3 years.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 27):
If/when DL/AS merge PDX will be the one that dies, as it is mostly a QX hub now anyways. DL can then beef up SEA/LAX/SLC will the AC/ employees from a smaller PDX.

That's probably true, but PDX is not under the fare pressure from WN (and somewhat B6) that SLC is. Geographically, you don't need MSP/SLC/SEA. If they didn't have MSP I'd agree, but frankly MSP covers most of what SLC does anyway and SEA/LAX anchors the rest nicely.

Quoting Airport (Reply 28):
DL's relationship with AS will certainly deepen over the next few years, but a merger (or even entrance into SkyTeam) is, and I emphasize extremely unlikely. AA is one of the sole reasons for this.

AA might try to prevent it, but DL will try it. Wait and see. I have not an iota of doubt it's coming. DL is just waiting for NW to be forgotten before they try. There is very little overlap so it will be very hard for DOJ to stop even though DL is the largest network carrier. OTOH, it will be very bad for the state of AK because network carriers tend to shed AK routes after acquisitions. For example, DL closing JNU.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 29):
I do agree that AS wont be dumping AMR unless Delta buys them. IMHO we will see UA/CO merge, DL/AS merge "because of a UA/CO merger" and AMR and B6 tie the knot.

That's another reason to do it. I agree with most of that except AA/B6. It's gonna be AA/US. Network-wise that's as perfect a fit as you'll ever see. Only PHX is probably gonna be dropped. AA doesn't have a strong NE hub nor a strong SE hub, plus DCA would be great for them complimented by a code share with B6 for NYC. It would really vault them into a much better position. US fits better with AA than anybody. Who knows, they might even keep PHX if they want to show WN they will fight when DAL opens up. Labor would be the hard part, but that's true of every merger.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 35):
DTW, SLC, MSP, or ATL can all provide far better western service from IND on DL than CVG.

I guess you are right, there's probably not a single unique O&D created by CVG service, but it's probably full and that's why they keep it...for now. I say "full" because we know if it's that short it's not profitable in the traditional sense.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2010-04-16 08:05:07 and read 7733 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 29):
I do agree that AS wont be dumping AMR unless Delta buys them. IMHO we will see UA/CO merge, DL/AS merge "because of a UA/CO merger" and AMR and B6 tie the knot.

That's another reason to do it. I agree with most of that except AA/B6. It's gonna be AA/US. Network-wise that's as perfect a fit as you'll ever see. Only PHX is probably gonna be dropped. AA doesn't have a strong NE hub nor a strong SE hub, plus DCA would be great for them complimented by a code share with B6 for NYC. It would really vault them into a much better position. US fits better with AA than anybody. Who knows, they might even keep PHX if they want to show WN they will fight when DAL opens up. Labor would be the hard part, but that's true of every merger.

The prospect of an AA - US merger has $750 / hour labor relations lawyers licking their chops, the same way a doberman would lick its chops if you put a piece of bloody meat in front of it.

US still hasn't resolved the labor issues from the HP-US merger several years ago. AA's unions are looking for an excuse to strike. If you were to try to force the AA, US, and HP employee groups into one group, the three groups would become apopleptic.

I think a more likely scenario would be for AA to allow US and UA to merge, then try to purchase any assets the merged airline was forced to sell off to win approval. This is what would have happened ten years ago if UA and US had merged. I'm sure UA would far prefer that any assets that get divested go to a network airline, like AA, than to WN.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2010-04-16 09:02:16 and read 7531 times.

Another note, according to this summers schedule, the 77L will no longer fly ATL-LAX, it will switch to DTW-LAX. There is going to be very few 777's in ATL from here on out it seems.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-16 09:04:41 and read 7516 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 38):
The prospect of an AA - US merger has $750 / hour labor relations lawyers licking their chops, the same way a doberman would lick its chops if you put a piece of bloody meat in front of it.
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 38):
then try to purchase any assets the merged airline was forced to sell off to win approval.

UA and US aren't gonna merge. The only thing UA wants from them is CLT. If they take DCA they probably have to ditch IAD. And you think UA-US labor groups are gonna get along any better than AA? Keep dreaming.

I think you might see US simple parted out and all the labor lose their jobs. I don't think anything stops them from selling the pieces. Even if there are contract issues they could do a pre-packaged Ch11 and sell it that way. AA would get PHL/DCA (or IAD). UA would get CLT. PHX would be a question mark, but my guess is RJET.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2010-04-16 09:48:45 and read 7389 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 39):
the 77L will no longer fly ATL-LAX, it will switch to DTW-LAX.

It will be nice to see a widebody on DTW-LAX, for the first time since NW phased out their DC-10-40s.

Prior to deregulation, AA and UA flew DTW-LAX with DC-10s and 747s, partly because of the huge volume of auto parts being airfreighted to the Ford assembly line in Pico Rivera, and the GM assembly lines in South Gate and Van Nuys.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2010-04-16 09:49:20 and read 7392 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 36):
Why???? Is there a hurry to be the next ghost airport like PIT or STL?

Do you think another airline is going to come in and add 50+ flights a day? Because that is probably not going to happen.

um...have you been to CVG lately? it's already a ghost airport with concourses A and C mothballed. I don't expect another airline to swoop in and bring CVG back up to 500 daily flights, but the 170 or so daily flights DL has now wouldn't be too hard to backfill. I guess when it comes down to it I'm just of the mentality, "just get it over with so we can move on".

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-04-16 10:53:03 and read 7254 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
I suspect MEM will be seriously looked at in for removal in the next 3 years.

How do you know that Delta needs to remove more capacity than completely de-hubbing CVG would remove?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: NKOPS
Posted 2010-04-16 14:17:29 and read 6973 times.

You can add

WS
ACY-YYZ 2/WK>0 MAY-

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: dlflynhayn
Posted 2010-04-16 15:52:37 and read 6833 times.

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 16):
also, use of all lower case letters doesn't reflect literacy IMO

Dont worry some guys are just that anal...

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
LAX-KOA 5/WK>1 SEP-
LAX-LIH 5/WK>1 SEP

I know in the past its been 5xweek but recently i see it go out everyday.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2010-04-16 16:52:45 and read 6751 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 41):
It will be nice to see a widebody on DTW-LAX, for the first time since NW phased out their DC-10-40s.

There will also be a 763 on the route. Along with MSP-LAX

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-16 17:35:35 and read 6675 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 43):
How do you know that Delta needs to remove more capacity than completely de-hubbing CVG would remove?

I think with AirTran cutting back ATL by 15%, DL would be very smart to grab those gates/passengers/market share by transplanting that capacity to ATL. MEM and ATL don't have that much uniqueness.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: worldtraveler
Posted 2010-04-16 19:22:36 and read 6536 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
Not sure what you mean by this either. Re-read my post and you'll see I said nothing about an "official dehubbing" announcement. Rather I want DL to actually just go ahead and de-hub CVG and pull it down to a regular station.

And I'm telling you there won't be a point at which CVG is offficially or unofficially dehubbed. They can call it a hub with service to 20 cities on 75 flts a day which shouldn't be too hard to do.... and they are a long ways from that point....

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
However, DL appears more interested in killing us slowly

So do you want a severance package? you have yet to explain why you are so interested in seeing DL shrink CVG.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 29):
Plus how long does DL want to *give* that revenue. With 3 TPAC flights out of SEA it makes since to have AS give the feed, but does it with 4? 5? 6? 7? there is a point that DL will make MORE money buying AS than they do buy letting AS give most of the feed. If SEA and LAX keep growing Delta will, at some point, have to have its own feed.

absolutely.... DL is well aware of the risk it is taking w/ feeding a major int'l oepration w/ a contract carrier but they will not keep that risk out there long term.
Unless AA grows its value to AS, DL's value to AS will quickly grow to the point where AS and DL will both come to the conclusion that they need each other far more than AS needs AA - regardless of what AA needs.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-04-16 20:21:36 and read 6453 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 47):
I think with AirTran cutting back ATL by 15%, DL would be very smart to grab those gates/passengers/market share by transplanting that capacity to ATL. MEM and ATL don't have that much uniqueness.

Unless Delta can get more gates, Delta can't grow much, and I doubt FL will relinquish gates (they will still be well in excess of what their leases require).

The problem with moving a bit of capacity to ATL is that MEM either needs to be the size that it is (or a bank larger) or be dehubbed. There will be no 110 flight/day hub as there was with AA/STL or US/PIT for a while.

[Edited 2010-04-16 20:22:03]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: smoot4208
Posted 2010-04-16 22:22:26 and read 6329 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I think you might see US simple parted out and all the labor lose their jobs. I don't think anything stops them from selling the pieces. Even if there are contract issues they could do a pre-packaged Ch11 and sell it that way.

Haha that's funny....US will not be splitting up

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2010-04-16 22:28:43 and read 6324 times.

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 48):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
Not sure what you mean by this either. Re-read my post and you'll see I said nothing about an "official dehubbing" announcement. Rather I want DL to actually just go ahead and de-hub CVG and pull it down to a regular station.

And I'm telling you there won't be a point at which CVG is offficially or unofficially dehubbed. They can call it a hub with service to 20 cities on 75 flts a day which shouldn't be too hard to do.... and they are a long ways from that point....

You're absolutely right, they could do that, then again they may well not do that. PIT was downgraded from hub to focus city to spoke within a relatively short amount of time. So it's anyone's guess as to what DL will ultimately do with the CVG hub. I would very much love for DL to maintain a hub here and find a place for CVG in their network. But their constant negative rhetoric regarding CVG and it's alleged inability to make a profit there coupled with the numerous cuts in service indicate strongly otherwise.

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 48):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
However, DL appears more interested in killing us slowly

So do you want a severance package? you have yet to explain why you are so interested in seeing DL shrink CVG.

Let me make clear that i'm not salivating over CVG shrinking, as I said above, I would love it if DL were able to find a way to make CVG work as a hub for them. But if they're just playing politics and slowly withering CVG down to what they plan to be a spoke, I would rather them just do it now, rip the bandaid off quickly so-to-speak. This way CVG would have more time to attract in some potential new services and carriers instead of prolonging a death spiral, leaving the airport in the awkward position it is now with concourses A and C closed and airlines bursting at the seems in T2.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: chrisair
Posted 2010-04-17 00:54:27 and read 6235 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 39):
Another note, according to this summers schedule, the 77L will no longer fly ATL-LAX, it will switch to DTW-LAX.

It is? I don't see it in the schedule...Do you know what the flight numbers are for the DTW-LAX-DTW legs?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-04-17 06:01:21 and read 6153 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 46):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 41):
It will be nice to see a widebody on DTW-LAX, for the first time since NW phased out their DC-10-40s.

There will also be a 763 on the route. Along with MSP-LAX
Quoting chrisair (Reply 52):
It is? I don't see it in the schedule...Do you know what the flight numbers are for the DTW-LAX-DTW legs?

The 763 & 77L flying doesn't start until June 10th.

The 763 on DTW-LAX-DTW operates the 7:40pm departure out of DTW and the 11:15am departure out of LAX, 6 days a week (on Saturdays it is a 757 instead)

The 77L on DTW-LAX operates the 3:15pm departure 4 days a week (Sun, Mon, Tue, Fri). The other days it is a 757.
There is no 77L on LAX-DTW, instead there is LAX-ATL. There is an additional 77L that flies ATL-DTW on certain days of the week.

These 777 flights are used to rotate the aircraft through the network.
The aircraft fly the following pattern Asia - DTW - LAX - SYD - LAX - ATL.

DTW-ATL / ATL-DTW has 0, 1, 2 777 flights depending on the day of the week.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 51):
Let me make clear that i'm not salivating over CVG shrinking, as I said above, I would love it if DL were able to find a way to make CVG work as a hub for them. But if they're just playing politics and slowly withering CVG down to what they plan to be a spoke, I would rather them just do it now, rip the bandaid off quickly so-to-speak.

Keep in mind DL has a lot of regional jet capacity under contract that they simply can't walk away from. Hence they would have to redeploy aircraft elsewhere. It is better to fly them and make money where they can.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US
Username: chrisair
Posted 2010-04-17 11:58:29 and read 5891 times.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 53):
The 77L on DTW-LAX operates the 3:15pm departure 4 days a week (Sun, Mon, Tue, Fri). The other days it is a 757.
There is no 77L on LAX-DTW, instead there is LAX-ATL. There is an additional 77L that flies ATL-DTW on certain days of the week.

Many thanks. I see them now. Looks like the LAX-ATL 77L is a Fri/Sun flight.

[Edited 2010-04-17 12:01:06]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-18 17:29:09 and read 5391 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 49):
Unless Delta can get more gates, Delta can't grow much, and I doubt FL will relinquish gates (they will still be well in excess of what their leases require).

A number of the gates FL uses at ATL are common use. DL can crowd them out of those gates.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 50):
Haha that's funny....US will not be splitting up

I can tell you aren't too well connected. Talks to do that have been ongoing for at least a year...or are you just doubting it will actually happen? You do realize that DOT won't allow UA to have both IAD and DCA?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: FutureUScapt
Posted 2010-04-18 17:41:53 and read 5365 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 55):
I can tell you aren't too well connected. Talks to do that have been ongoing for at least a year...or are you just doubting it will actually happen? You do realize that DOT won't allow UA to have both IAD and DCA?

Having to divest one of the DC hubs because of anti-competitive concerns is certainly different from your suggestion that US might be "parted out" or "sold in pieces." If/When US becomes insolvent, we can begin to entertain such an idea. Until then, it's just idle speculation.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-04-18 17:46:11 and read 5340 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 55):
A number of the gates FL uses at ATL are common use. DL can crowd them out of those gates.

...or WN can crowd both of them. How much would FL have to reduce its use of the common use gates to get the total flight reduction it seeks?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-19 12:27:15 and read 4929 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 57):
...or WN can crowd both of them. How much would FL have to reduce its use of the common use gates to get the total flight reduction it seeks?

The question is this: FL is reducing total flights by 15%. If they take all those flights off their signatory gates and keep maximizing use of the common gates, can the airport repatriate the common gates? Delta is so powerful with the airport, I have little doubt they could make that happen. I'm not sure WN could. I don't think the airport really cares about WN. ATL is probably one of 2 or 3 airports in the country that wouldn't go out of their way to help WN. I'd say JFK and EWR are probably the other two. I think MWAA would since they have the dwindling relationship at IAD and the BWI rivalry.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-04-19 12:36:07 and read 4891 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 58):
If they take all those flights off their signatory gates and keep maximizing use of the common gates, can the airport repatriate the common gates?

There would have to be some sort of agreement somewhere to use signatory gates preferentially.

Of course, if FL were to schedule creatively enough, they could probably have enough aircraft on the ground at one time that it would not be physically possible for t hem to run their schedule without use of the common gates.

Quoting enilria (Reply 58):
I'm not sure WN could. I don't think the airport really cares about WN

They don't - except to the degree that Air21 forces them to. But there's not really another convenient place to put WN should WN want in.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-20 06:41:02 and read 4615 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 59):
Of course, if FL were to schedule creatively enough, they could probably have enough aircraft on the ground at one time that it would not be physically possible for t hem to run their schedule without use of the common gates.

That would be great for WN because they could simply schedule their flights in between FL's banks on the common gates.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-04-20 06:55:26 and read 4578 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
That's probably true, but PDX is not under the fare pressure from WN (and somewhat B6) that SLC is. Geographically, you don't need MSP/SLC/SEA. If they didn't have MSP I'd agree, but frankly MSP covers most of what SLC does anyway and SEA/LAX anchors the rest nicely.

SLC is slowly getting smaller for WN and (by seats) SLC is growing, alot, for DL. LAX/SEA/SLC/MSP will fit nicely together, but i would say pretty much all of AS's network will be cut and planes moved to SEA and LAX. Also expect OO to move more 70/76 seaters to SEA and the QX Q40s moved to LAX to add routes to drop the MQ codeshare.

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
AA might try to prevent it, but DL will try it. Wait and see. I have not an iota of doubt it's coming. DL is just waiting for NW to be forgotten before they try. There is very little overlap so it will be very hard for DOJ to stop even though DL is the largest network carrier. OTOH, it will be very bad for the state of AK because network carriers tend to shed AK routes after acquisitions. For example, DL closing JNU.

DL is just waiting of the cover of a UA/CO or a UA/US merger to do it. Anderson has said AS will be moving next to/sharing gates with DL in alot/most/all stations coming soon.....just getting closer and closer.

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):


That's another reason to do it. I agree with most of that except AA/B6. It's gonna be AA/US. Network-wise that's as perfect a fit as you'll ever see. Only PHX is probably gonna be dropped. AA doesn't have a strong NE hub nor a strong SE hub, plus DCA would be great for them complimented by a code share with B6 for NYC. It would really vault them into a much better position. US fits better with AA than anybody. Who knows, they might even keep PHX if they want to show WN they will fight when DAL opens up. Labor would be the hard part, but that's true of every merger.

I don't think so. I agree they fit like a glove but if US and AA merge, mock my words, that will be the end of the airline

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 39):
There is going to be very few 777's in ATL from here on out it seems.

huh? ATL has 2X the nuber of 777 routes that DTW does(and DTW is the closest station to ATL with 777 flights.)

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-20 08:29:14 and read 4458 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 61):
but i would say pretty much all of AS's network will be cut and planes moved to SEA and LAX.

You mean PDX or ANC/PDX will go? I suspect ANC will go, but somebody is going to fly all that stuff and it makes money. I can just imagine the DL ops people whining about it so much as "special needs" work that it just gets cut to avoid the trouble of it. That's one of the reasons airlines don't make money.  
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 61):
DL is just waiting of the cover of a UA/CO or a UA/US merger to do it. Anderson has said AS will be moving next to/sharing gates with DL in alot/most/all stations coming soon.....just getting closer and closer.

  

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 61):
I don't think so. I agree they fit like a glove but if US and AA merge, mock my words, that will be the end of the airline

You really want me to mock your words? It would create a labor powder key, but the US people are going to do that anywhere they go.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-04-20 08:41:43 and read 4408 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 62):
You mean PDX or ANC/PDX will go? I suspect ANC will go, but somebody is going to fly all that stuff and it makes money. I can just imagine the DL ops people whining about it so much as "special needs" work that it just gets cut to avoid the trouble of it. That's one of the reasons airlines don't make money.

PDX and ANC but AS(and mainly QX) have alot of P2P routes on the west coast. Routes such as SJC-AUS, SFO-PSP, BOI-SJC, BOI-SMF etc. would all likely go because this is where the cost of Delta will kill them. Taking AS's LAX and SEA, IMO, will not be a problem at all for Delta because there cost, as much as the AA lovers don't wanna hear it, its that bad that it would make said hub burn money but most of AS's P2P network would become a black hole because alot of it is against WN....and its not a place DL can win. With those aircaft they could add more routes out of LAX/SEA and beef up routes they already have making those two hubs over all stronger. It will be a little ugly to start with(feel sorry for you with your OAG threads LOL) but over all it would amek amuch stronger Delta and would give them two gateway in which they could start to over fly NRT and cut more seats out of there.

The ANC network and the Hawaii netowrk I'm not 100% sure would go BECAUSE IIRC alot of the the AK flights are EAS and Delta might be able to fly the routes, but i would't hold my breath. Also alot of the hawaii flights Delta has cut, AS has replaced so, with 737s they may be able to keep some,most,all of that network.

Quoting enilria (Reply 62):
It would create a labor powder key, but the US people are going to do that anywhere they go.

true....still just think it wont work with out AA cuting it up alot. CLT would be a great fit, as would the NE flights and the PHL hub.....PHX and the labor problems make it ugly. Mabye they should just un-do the US/HP merger   

Quoting enilria (Reply 62):
You really want me to mock your words?

eh beeter not.....have had good luck with that lately   

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 4/16/2010: AA/AC/AS/CO/DL/F9/FL/US/WN
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-04-20 09:59:10 and read 4317 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 63):
The ANC network and the Hawaii netowrk I'm not 100% sure would go BECAUSE IIRC alot of the the AK flights are EAS and Delta might be able to fly the routes, but i would't hold my breath.

I agree with most of what you posted. I wonder if they could have a partner fly some more of the intra-Alaska stuff and code share it? Trouble is that it would have to be mainline sized aircraft. It's also likely that the Alaska delegation would fight the whole thing. OTOH, Alaska is weak in the Obama controlled gov't. That could spur Delta to move a little faster before there is a chance of a Republican President. While Republicans are pro-business, they will bend over backward to make sure Alaska doesn't get shafted on air service.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 63):
true....still just think it wont work with out AA cuting it up alot. CLT would be a great fit, as would the NE flights and the PHL hub.....PHX and the labor problems make it ugly. Mabye they should just un-do the US/HP merger

I've posted before that I wonder if they can somehow cut loose the whole PHX operation, pilots and all.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 63):
eh beeter not.....have had good luck with that lately

 


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/