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Topic: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: ua777222
Posted 2010-04-19 15:22:37 and read 18757 times.

Was looking through the flight pattern of a LearJet 60.

There were several pictures of it both in the states and overseas.

Just came back last month from SNN to VNY via YQX and STP.

Question is:

This is one of several similar trips this aircraft has taken overseas. Why would an owner/operator want to take a LearJet 60 that far with so many stops when, say a Gulfstream G150 or Falcon 50 could do it in two stops with similar costs? Also, at just under 12 hours of flight time and 15 hours of travel time, how can a two-man crew do this trip?

Thanks!

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: N104UA
Posted 2010-04-19 16:45:04 and read 18421 times.

It could be that he could not afford to buy a bigger a/c and wanted to take his own. With the flight crew, they most likely trade off at the fuel stops.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2010-04-19 17:36:51 and read 18228 times.

Quoting ua777222 (Thread starter):
This is one of several similar trips this aircraft has taken overseas. Why would an owner/operator want to take a LearJet 60 that far with so many stops when, say a Gulfstream G150 or Falcon 50 could do it in two stops with similar costs? Also, at just under 12 hours of flight time and 15 hours of travel time, how can a two-man crew do this trip?

Thanks!

maybe money's an issue? Seriosuly, a Gulfstream costs a lot more coin than a well-heeled Lear 60 that the guy/company/whoever already owns....

As to the crew hours, if the aircraft is owned by the said party, then it is a Part 91 flight (the general operating rules). Part 135 covers commercial operations (i.e. another party, not the company itself, is paid by another party to do the flying), and Part 121 covers scheduled airline operations. Anyhow, the Part 91 rules are much more relaxed than 121 or 135...

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: ua777222
Posted 2010-04-19 18:23:07 and read 18023 times.

I'm aware of the FAR/AIM coverage of the flight, but the question really is just why?

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: N766UA
Posted 2010-04-19 18:25:57 and read 18008 times.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):
I'm aware of the FAR/AIM coverage of the flight, but the question really is just why?

Because that's the equipment the guy has!

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-04-19 18:26:37 and read 17989 times.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):
I'm aware of the FAR/AIM coverage of the flight, but the question really is just why?

You use what you have. Maybe they had to make multiple stops in Europe, and the convenience of being able to do that on your own schedule more than offset the fuel stops on the transatlantic legs.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2010-04-19 18:28:12 and read 17974 times.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):
I'm aware of the FAR/AIM coverage of the flight, but the question really is just why?

Hopping around once in Europe perhaps? All in all, that costs less than chartering a bigger bird to cross the Atlantic and another one within Europe.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2010-04-19 18:42:06 and read 17857 times.

A business class seat on a widebody aircraft would have been a lot more comfortable then any learjet and probably faster too?

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: N766UA
Posted 2010-04-19 18:44:12 and read 17831 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
A business class seat on a widebody aircraft would have been a lot more comfortable then any learjet and probably faster too?

Working off somebody else's schedule is never faster, and if you're talking airspeed, the newer lears will keep right up with the heavies, and they usually fly higher.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: briboy
Posted 2010-04-19 18:49:12 and read 17799 times.

May have been doing patient transport. I know there are Lears that operate rather regularly from YYZ to Europe that are doing medial reparation.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: incitatus
Posted 2010-04-19 18:56:21 and read 17742 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
A business class seat on a widebody aircraft would have been a lot more comfortable then any learjet and probably faster too?

It is a difference similar to that of traveling on a bus and traveling on a car.

Sometimes people who do heavy use of business jets get on commercial flights, but most of them hate it, especially having to deal with crowds and the long distance from the curb onto the airplane in most large airports.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: ua777222
Posted 2010-04-19 18:59:26 and read 17727 times.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 10):
Sometimes people who do heavy use of business jets get on commercial flights, but most of them hate it, especially having to deal with crowds and the long distance from the curb onto the airplane in most large airports.

The absolute horror.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: 2175301
Posted 2010-04-19 19:16:16 and read 17622 times.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 11):
Quoting incitatus (Reply 10):
Sometimes people who do heavy use of business jets get on commercial flights, but most of them hate it, especially having to deal with crowds and the long distance from the curb onto the airplane in most large airports.

The absolute horror.

It's not the distance: Its the time wasted and the hassle.

You also get better baggage handling (as I scratch my head in wonder about the damage done to my main luggage on Friday - no human could have done that; it had to get caught in some kind of machine or something). Guess its time for another new (not cheap) Samsonite case: but, at least it stayed intact enough to keep the contents inside the case.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: 26point2
Posted 2010-04-19 19:33:04 and read 17532 times.

Folks fly all sorts of smaller types to Europe too. Many single engined props make the crossing during the summer.

I once saw and N registered C-182 in Florence, Italy. Getting there is half the fun I suppose.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: ua777222
Posted 2010-04-19 23:55:07 and read 17106 times.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):
I once saw and N registered C-182 in Florence, Italy. Getting there is half the fun I suppose.

Obviously any Cessna had to be delivered from KS. Its my understanding that a lot of owners and operators of smaller props will register their aircraft out of the states but they are based in Europe (not making multiple trips across the pond).

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2010-04-20 00:20:50 and read 17014 times.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 10):
Sometimes people who do heavy use of business jets get on commercial flights, but most of them hate it, especially having to deal with crowds and the long distance from the curb onto the airplane in most large airports.

Good point. And i guess its still a relatively short flight for a long haul. those couple of refueling stops are probably less time then the airport waits and it wont take long to refuel a learjet. 10 mins maybe?

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: SLCGuy
Posted 2010-04-20 05:40:12 and read 15633 times.

A bit much for a Lear 60, but that's what they have. Bet the guy wishes he had a G-550 which could do eastbound nonstop and westbound with one stop at most. Says a lot about the hassle of flying commercial with super elite, business deluxe, premium class, ultra modern, compartimentailized laydown at weird angle seats, that you can't see out the window of, even if the F/A's did let you open the shades. And purple mood lighting as well.

Yeah, I'd take the Lear too!

[Edited 2010-04-20 06:36:16]

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: N6238P
Posted 2010-04-20 07:20:22 and read 14234 times.

Is it just me or there just a general misconception on the purpose of corporate flight departments and corporate flying in general or even how it works?

I'm not trying to put down anyone in this thread or forum, this is just a thought.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2010-04-20 07:28:09 and read 14058 times.

Quoting ua777222 (Thread starter):

What makes you think the person was on board during the over ocean flight...? Maybe they wanted the plane in Europe while they traveled around Europe.. then took a 1st Class airline flight while the plane ferried empty back to the states.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2010-04-20 07:36:29 and read 13896 times.

Quoting N6238P (Reply 17):
Is it just me or there just a general misconception on the purpose of corporate flight departments and corporate flying in general or even how it works?

No kidding. The general public still believes that it's just an expensive toy for rich fat cats and politicians only.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: cpd
Posted 2010-04-20 08:12:41 and read 13280 times.

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 16):
ays a lot about the hassle of flying commercial with super elite, business deluxe,

The thought of having to share a cabin with some of those spoiled brat frequent flying elite status passengers is enough to push me to the private jet as well! If only to avoid the tantrums some of those elite passengers start on with when they can't get their own way!  

That's often part of the reason people go for private jets, even if it means a lot of stops along the way.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2010-04-20 08:21:33 and read 13114 times.

I've spent a little bit of time working in an FBO, and we had a couple of jets based out of there. We had a Hawker 800XP and a Citation Excel, that from the Central US went to Europe. Not sure the exact routes they took, but they both did it. It came down to them wanting to visit various locations within Europe, and it was just going to be easier for them to take the smaller jets, than to use one of the alternatives.

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: dl767captain
Posted 2010-04-20 09:18:52 and read 12252 times.

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 16):

strangely enough i'd rather go with the 747 and funny lie flat seats haha

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2010-04-20 09:53:35 and read 11659 times.

Quoting dl767captain (Reply 22):
strangely enough i'd rather go with the 747 and funny lie flat seats haha

Actually me too...and have stand up size bathrooms and multiple ppl to serve me drinks (hopefully some good lookers... yes i like to fly EK!). And i know some corporate jets have that but most smaller ones dont. And you'd have heaps of change!

So i guess it depends what you use it for. If you're somebody like, say, Hillary Clinton, it would be a logicstical nightmare trying to both clear security and keep to their agenda using commercial. And for some extremely busy ppl, like heads of certain banks, certain intergovernment bodies (UN types) and even somebody like branson, at times, the schedule is just too tight and too busy to wait for commercial service. Especially if it would involve making multiple connections. Something like trying to get from the south of italy to Gothenburg in sweden (lets say ur in the car parts or dishwasher business...mulitple plants) you'd lose the best part of day travelling by the time you did 2 connections. Of course if you can fly direct....

That being said, if all other things were equal first on the 747 is more comfortable then any Lear. Now if you had a Gulfstream however.... that changes everything.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: N6238P
Posted 2010-04-20 09:53:46 and read 11660 times.

A lot of time, flight departments use their planes as shuttles just to fly executives, engineers, management from the offices in lets say California to one of their plants in say Tennessee or Mexico or China. Long or short, these trips are numerous and many are done in a week just go get many people to many different places in little time. Most of these companies don't have facilities that are remotely close to a airport with any sort of air service. A lot of times these trips need to be made right away. Talking to many corporate pilots, sometimes notice of a trip across the country or even internationally can come within 2-3 hours before take off. Corporations do not have the time to deal with the unpredictability of the airlines or travel to or from an airport. Business is done in seconds not days. That fact that a G-V or Falcon 900 or Lear 60 is nice inside have nothing to do with why these flights are occurring.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: ua777222
Posted 2010-04-20 10:00:08 and read 11819 times.

NetJets has a great system if you ask me. Not sure if they still partner with LH, but the deal is if you're in California and say in a C750, you fly to JFK or BOS and fly commercial to FRA or MUC and are swooped up at the gate and taken to a NetJets Europe aircraft to continue your journey within Europe.

Works great for everyone involved as NetJets doesn't want their non-ULH jets overseas and they already have the fleet waiting for you on the other side.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: mNeo
Posted 2010-04-20 10:20:53 and read 11408 times.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 25):
NetJets has a great system if you ask me. Not sure if they still partner with LH, but the deal is if you're in California and say in a C750, you fly to JFK or BOS and fly commercial to FRA or MUC and are swooped up at the gate and taken to a NetJets Europe aircraft to continue your journey within Europe.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a private jet? It seems like this would be at least 2-3 hours longer than just taking a direct NetJets flight, and maybe even the same time as taking a commercial(LAX-FRA) then connect to netJets. I guess it must have some sort of appeal to people, but i dont get the half private/half commercial travel.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: Gulfstream650
Posted 2010-04-20 10:29:02 and read 11391 times.

Some people like to take a PJ because it allows the to have a bit of a party with friends on the trip. Half a case of red wine, beer, bourbon and a pack of playing cards with chips and you've got your own little party bus in the sky.

Also, another valid possibility is that the owner may be a smoker and likes to have a few 'Cohibas' on his flights - you ain't going to be able to get away with that on 'public' carrier.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2010-04-20 10:39:36 and read 11201 times.

Quoting mNeo (Reply 26):
It seems like this would be at least 2-3 hours longer than just taking a direct NetJets flight, and maybe even the same time as taking a commercial(LAX-FRA) then connect to netJets.

But it is much more expansive to fly NetJets from end to end than to go commercial, even in First, over the Atlantic, unless you have a party of several people.

Lufthansa has its own program now anyway, called Lufthansa Private Jet, whereby you fly LH from any gateway around the world to one of their hubs and connect to a private plane for the remainder of your journey within Europe or to Russia.

You can also book a private jet without a commercial flight tag-on, of course.
http://www.lufthansa-private-jet.com/

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: xdlx
Posted 2010-04-20 10:46:04 and read 11037 times.

The basic concept of flying.... is to travel between two points with the most efficiency possible.

The arguments listed above of Bussiness or Lie Flat seats vs a corporate aircraft, leave me really
surprised at the lack of understanding of private aircraft.
Private aircraft will eventually be accepted in the mainstream, but many more people
need to experience it to understand it.

Why ? Because he/she can!

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: etherealsky
Posted 2010-04-20 11:10:32 and read 10701 times.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):

A professor of mine likes to tell the story of a friend of his who used to ferry Skyhawks from the continental US to Hawaii; Apparently all the seats were removed and an auxiliary fuel tank was installed in the cabin. To minimize fuel burn and make the trip nonstop, the first 6 hours (or something like that) were flown just above stall speed (yes, imagine listening to the stall warning horn for 6 hours straight...    ) and the whole trip took (I can't remember the exact number) something like 14 hours (?)

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 19):

I agree; this is one of the most unfortunate public misconceptions regarding aviation. Congress didn't help things either with all the auto-executive-bashing last year..

A firm called NEXA Capital Partners published a study that was featured in Aviation Week magazine last fall, regarding business aviation and its benefits. Anyone who thinks corporate jets are a waste of money should take a look at the facts and conclusions drawn in this study:

http://nexacapital.com/news_reports_.../NEXA%20EV%20Report%20Part%201.pdf
Aviation Week: "BizAv Groups Link Performance, Aircraft Use."

A couple of excerpts:

Quote:
Our study looked at the improvement in the asset efficiency (turnover) metric to measure
how successful firms were in increasing productivity of assets. Users 9of business aviation) appeared to come out
ahead as well, producing the asset turnover ratios 20 percent higher than nonusers.



Revenue growth is important, but any asset base should also be measured in its ability to produce
bottom line earnings. In our study, the average return on assets for users was 108 percent (318
percent: weighted) that of nonusers.

----

Quote:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3512/captureuj.png

----

Quote:
“We paid for our aircraft for an entire year because we were able to respond so quickly to one customer.”
— S&P 500 CEO


[Edited 2010-04-20 11:19:28]

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: ua777222
Posted 2010-04-20 11:29:56 and read 10312 times.

Quoting mNeo (Reply 26):
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a private jet? It seems like this would be at least 2-3 hours longer than just taking a direct NetJets flight, and maybe even the same time as taking a commercial(LAX-FRA) then connect to netJets. I guess it must have some sort of appeal to people, but i dont get the half private/half commercial travel.

Its geared towards members who have shares of smaller aircraft that don't have the legs to get there. Gulfstream owners will hop the pond all the time (G450 and G550).

I'm not arguing against the use of a private jet. I agree that they are unmatched when it comes to efficiency in relation to time. My dads company throws him and his entire leadership team on a Gulfstream IV at LAX once or twice a quarter and goes to HNL where he'll tour them around all of the islands at their DCs and then heads back to LAX. Total time: 3 days. He normally does this once a month by himself commercially and takes 5 days.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: tomascubero
Posted 2010-04-20 11:47:34 and read 10022 times.

A Guatemalan Learjet 45XR, TG-ABY, made is journey from MGGT to LLBG (GUA-TLV) don't have the stops though but that is also a hell of a trip! There are photos of it in Israel.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: YXXMIKE
Posted 2010-04-20 12:45:11 and read 9138 times.

I thought if I ever won the lottery I'd buy a PC XII and ferry it from Switzerland myself, again half the fun is the journey! I once knew a PC XII owner who had taken his around the world for a year, he was a well off aviation nerd and had a great time.

Why take a LR 60 to Europe? Maybe the owner of the plane is also a pilot and wants to enjoy his toy...remember if you have that kind of money you can fly a 747 any day of the week a lie flat bed, but flying your own plane across the pond, well that's just different!

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: 474218
Posted 2010-04-20 12:53:07 and read 8990 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
A business class seat on a widebody aircraft would have been a lot more comfortable then any learjet and probably faster too?

But when you fly commercial you fly on their schedule!

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: 26point2
Posted 2010-04-20 12:58:20 and read 8921 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 15):
Obviously any Cessna had to be delivered from KS.

I know what you mean but this statement is not true.

Reims France had a licensing agreement with Cessna for many years and produced C-152, C-172, C-182 among others and is still in production under a new corporate name.

Many Cessna products in Europe have never flown in N. America.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: ua777222
Posted 2010-04-20 13:05:08 and read 8808 times.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 35):
I know what you mean but this statement is not true.

Reims France had a licensing agreement with Cessna for many years and produced C-152, C-172, C-182 among others and is still in production under a new corporate name.

Many Cessna products in Europe have never flown in N. America.

Then that further reinforces the concept that they don't make the trip across the pond but are registered in N. America. Thanks for the clarification. Wasn't/Isn't there an a/c manufacturer who assembles and then disassembles their aircraft, ships them off on rail/boat, and then once in the destination country, is put back together/assembled by a contracted company?

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2010-04-20 13:12:26 and read 8680 times.

Quoting ua777222 (Thread starter):
Why would an owner/operator want to take a LearJet 60 that far

Because he can.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: CFBFrame
Posted 2010-04-20 14:55:36 and read 7375 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 37):
Because he can.

Yep!!! And if you have to ask why, any explanation here will never help you understand.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: nra-3b
Posted 2010-04-20 14:59:09 and read 7330 times.

Hey Guys,

I put this question to my son, a former Lear 60 driver and current Challenger 300 captain. He flew the Lear for several years before his company upgraded to the Challenger. During the days of the Lear 60, as well as the present, they flew not only to Europe frequently, but to the Far East and SE Asia. The SEA trips sometimes returned to the U.S. through Fiji and Hawaii. (and one or twice through Europe) While in SEA, they made quite a few side trips to out of the way places, that would be hard to access via the airlines. His boss got full use of that airplane for business, and vacation stops, too. So basically, he can go where he wants, when he wants. The folks that manage the aircraft maintenance for him once told my son that the owner was saving about $1 Mil a year over a Gulfstream, even with a few more fuel stops. The owner was perfectly happy with the cabin on the Lear and used his time to sleep or work, not something you need a whole lot of room for. He upgraded to the Challenger mostly so he could carry a couple more company crew on the business trips.

Anyhow, Kevin says if you got it, you use it.......

Cheers,
Bob

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: UTAH744
Posted 2010-04-20 15:02:10 and read 7246 times.

I will tell you WHY the boss uses a corporate jet vs. commercial. The airliner leaves on their schedule and the corporate jet leaves WHEN HE SHOWS UP!!

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: 26point2
Posted 2010-04-20 15:10:55 and read 7168 times.

I've flown mid-sized biz jets from California to Europe many times. It can make sense for certain people with certain needs. Travel time is actually faster due to no airport/terminal/airline schedule hassles.

Ex: KMRY-EGGW with one fuel stop is 12 hours. Try doing that on an airliner.

Another: I flew a charter from KSJC-EFHK with one passenger. He had a critical meeting in Silicon Valley at 10 am and another critical meeting in Helsinki the next morning at 10 am. No airline from the West Coast could get him to Finland in time. 2 fuel stops and a crew change in BIRK was required but we got the job done.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-04-21 13:37:25 and read 6336 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 29):
The basic concept of flying.... is to travel between two points with the most efficiency possible.

The arguments listed above of Bussiness or Lie Flat seats vs a corporate aircraft, leave me really
surprised at the lack of understanding of private aircraft.
Private aircraft will eventually be accepted in the mainstream, but many more people
need to experience it to understand it.

Are private jets becoming cheaper ?

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: 2175301
Posted 2010-04-21 16:34:17 and read 6198 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 42):
Are private jets becoming cheaper ?

When you look at the time value of some people... Private Jets are very cheap indeed.

I personally know a guy who charges $10,000 per hour - and gets it. Not that many hours per week; but, he figures that he cannot afford to waste his time on most commercial flights.

In my line of business - we routinely hire specialist who charge $500+ per hour (and $1000+ is not unheard of).

We also hire private jets to ship supplies as well. When the plant is down its costing us $1/2 million+ per day.

Topic: RE: Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2010-04-22 03:59:46 and read 5922 times.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 43):
We also hire private jets to ship supplies as well. When the plant is down its costing us $1/2 million+ per day.

In the machine tool business down time can be extremely expensive; one machine down can stop an entire assembly line. It is not unusual for a company to charter a plane (or fly their own) to pick up a part that can be carried by hand. The downtime is far, far more expensive than the flight. The same goes for executives; sometime an executive needs to be somewhere to resolve a problem, and the timely resolution of that problem can be worth many, many times the cost of the flight. This is what the Aviation Week article cited by etherealsky was getting at.


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