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Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Pegasus01
Posted 2010-05-21 19:26:04 and read 66531 times.

Was browsing the net and came upon a CNN bulliten.

Anyone have any further information?

www.cnn.com

[Edited 2010-05-21 19:26:59]

[Edited 2010-05-21 19:29:13]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: shamrock350
Posted 2010-05-21 19:30:12 and read 66512 times.

Sky News reporting an Air India flight from Dubai has overshot the runway.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Pegasus01
Posted 2010-05-21 19:32:38 and read 66356 times.

As usual bearly coverage State side.

Have they given any details. extent of damage, type of a/c?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2010-05-21 19:32:46 and read 66413 times.

Should be a Boeing 737-800 from Air India Express....

Here's hoping it's just an exaggeration and they just skidded off the runway...

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: zkojh
Posted 2010-05-21 19:33:39 and read 66365 times.

163 Pax's on board and 6 crew, all fered dead, aircraft ablaze on the ground.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Scanorama
Posted 2010-05-21 19:34:15 and read 66225 times.

SMH reported it has more than 160 passengers onboard, overshoots the runway and bursts into flames.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/plane-ov...-flames-reports-20100522-w2ji.html

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: stasisLAX
Posted 2010-05-21 19:34:25 and read 66233 times.

NBC News just reported the aircraft overshot the runway and went down in a steep cliff/terrain.


Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37286182...world_news-south_and_central_asia/




[Edited 2010-05-21 19:35:35]

[Edited 2010-05-21 19:40:12]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Fauzi
Posted 2010-05-21 19:36:52 and read 66158 times.

CNN is showing the images now. The whole area of the crash is on fire. Not good... not good  

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-21 19:39:32 and read 65955 times.

Another source:

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_live.php?id=LIVE_BG24x7&live=tv


Talks about plane crash landing and bursting into flames.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: victor009
Posted 2010-05-21 19:39:58 and read 65919 times.

163 pax + 6 crew onboard

100+feared dead, engine caught fire and overshoot runway, no clear info atm. Airport closed until further notice.

Airport has 2 runways but I guess the debri is all over as plane was on fire during the approach .

VJC

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: shamrock350
Posted 2010-05-21 19:42:30 and read 65648 times.

Sky News showing images as well, hardly anything left apart from the nose and tail which appears to be completely white which could from the foam.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Desh
Posted 2010-05-21 19:45:02 and read 65531 times.

Prayers for all involved.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-21 19:45:06 and read 65561 times.

The airport appears to be on top of a flattened hill with steep slopes on all sides - approx 200 ft or more elevation difference between the runways and the surrounding terrain.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Wroord
Posted 2010-05-21 19:47:00 and read 65397 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Another source:

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_live.php?id=LIVE_BG24x7&live=tv


Talks about plane crash landing and bursting into flames.

The screen on the Indian TV is showing that it was "a mishap on take off", which it would be not true if the flight came from Dubai. Anyways another sad story.....

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: shamrock350
Posted 2010-05-21 19:47:59 and read 65384 times.

Six passengers have been taken to hospital but the terrain surrounding the airport has made it very difficult for emergency services to access the crash site.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2010-05-21 19:48:34 and read 65270 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
The airport appears to be on top of a flattened hill with steep slopes on all sides - approx 200 ft or more elevation difference between the runways and the surrounding terrain.

Looks like a lousy place to have an overrun, that's for sure. The main runway looks like it's about 8,000' long--fairly new and pretty long as well. The weather looks pretty decent.

Nothing really seems to be standing out as a red flag to me at the moment...

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ixemctdca
Posted 2010-05-21 19:50:59 and read 65075 times.

Some info from some local sites, mirrors everything else we've seen so far from the links above

National - http://www.ndtv.com/news/world/air-i...ausalities-feared-27033.php?u=0806

Local - http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_...Crashes%20at%20Mangalore%20Airport

[Edited 2010-05-21 19:52:26]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KBUF
Posted 2010-05-21 19:53:54 and read 64889 times.

I heard 812 as the flight number.

EDIT: 160 souls confirmed dead, per Reuters.

[Edited 2010-05-21 19:55:30]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-05-21 19:54:13 and read 64746 times.

Aircraft appears to have been operating IX 812, with a scheduled arrival time of 6.30am.

I'm actually in Dubai at the moment and IX is a major operator here, with routes to many Indian regional destinations. Many, if not most, pax would have been domestic, construction and services industry employees in Dubai, whose families rely on remittances from work in DXB.

This accident brings to an end a period of very high growth in Indian aviation without fatal accidents and is the first fatal accident for Indian airliners in many years.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-21 19:55:22 and read 64745 times.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 15):
The main runway looks like it's about 8,000' long--fairly new and pretty long as well.

Wikipedia says the new runway was opened in May 10, 2006 and is 9,515 ft / 2,300M long.

The Google Earth image is from 2006, and show about 8,000 ft runway and about 750 ft of overrun on each end - no parallel taxiway.

The older runway is about 5,300 feet long.

[Edited 2010-05-21 19:58:06]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: shamrock350
Posted 2010-05-21 19:57:18 and read 64525 times.

Sky News have on their screen that conditions at the airport were apparently poor according to an Indian official. It does seem to be raining quite heavily in the pictures the NDTV are showing.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2010-05-21 19:57:42 and read 64523 times.

What was the weather and general visability at the time of the crash? Anybody saying what they saw happened in this crash?
Still, the possibilty of a major crash like this is sad. Now we have had 3 'mainline' class aircraft crash in the last month or so.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Cassi
Posted 2010-05-21 19:58:23 and read 64375 times.

I guess it was IX 812, a 737-800 leaving DXB at 01:15 and arriving at IXE at 06:30.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-21 19:59:20 and read 64369 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 18):
This accident brings to an end a period of very high growth in Indian aviation without fatal accidents and is the first fatal accident for Indian airliners in many years.

What a shame. Indian carriers have good crew training standards. I think the a/c was also fairly new (?). Wonder what happened...

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2010-05-21 20:03:34 and read 64048 times.

Hope everyone is safe and alive. If not may they RIP.

KH

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 20:04:41 and read 65305 times.

Prayers to all involved. Yes, IX812 DXB to Mangalore, IXE. Of 169, many were children, reportedly. I'm looking for the reg.

Could a runway overrun cause this much damage ?

[Edited 2010-05-21 20:39:13 by srbmod]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-21 20:06:05 and read 65195 times.

Another crash landing by a modern airliner in VFR conditions...what's happening?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: acabgd
Posted 2010-05-21 20:06:18 and read 67952 times.

6 survirvors confirmed by NDTV, possibly more but still no info. From the live images shown on NDTV stream it seems as if the plane dropped into a deep ravine at the end of the runway and it's impossible for rescue vehicles to reach the spot. However, firefighters are on the spot and fires are under control.

Rescuers are shown carrying bodies up a steep hill helped by others along the way. Weather was cloudy, but they don't say if it was raining or not at the time of the crash.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-21 20:07:44 and read 67883 times.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 26):
Could a runway overrun cause this much damage ?

There is a 150' ditch at the end of the runway that the aircraft appeared to have fallen into.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rleiro
Posted 2010-05-21 20:08:48 and read 67589 times.

It looks like it's Air India Express Flight 812 from Dubai, scheduled to arrive to Mangalore at 06:30 local.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2010-05-21 20:08:58 and read 67606 times.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 26):
Could a runway overrun cause this much damage ?

Sure it could. It depends mostly on the energy the aircraft was carrying at the time of overrun and the terrain. If the terrain around the airport had been perfectly flat, there's a chance this plane could have ended up in (more or less) one piece. Unfortunately, it looks like a steep dropoff with obstacles--which could definitely produce this damage.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: acabgd
Posted 2010-05-21 20:09:48 and read 67499 times.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 26):
Of 169, many were children, reportedly

137 adults and 19 children.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Fauzi
Posted 2010-05-21 20:12:21 and read 67425 times.

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 20):
Sky News have on their screen that conditions at the airport were apparently poor according to an Indian official. It does seem to be raining quite heavily in the pictures the NDTV are showing.

Yeah CNN is reporting that visibility was poor at that time. And the plane did touch-down but apparently attempted to go-around. But let's not make any assumptions now but instead do hope for more survivors.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KPDX
Posted 2010-05-21 20:14:35 and read 67404 times.

FFS, what's up with all the major aviation accidents this year?  

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: WarmNuts
Posted 2010-05-21 20:16:16 and read 66937 times.

Quoting Wroord (Reply 13):
The airport appears to be on top of a flattened hill with steep slopes on all sides - approx 200 ft or more elevation difference between the runways and the surrounding terrain.

I've flown in in/out of IXE (as pax). As soon as you're wheels up, the bottom drops out beneath you... no run-off.

[Edited 2010-05-21 20:23:34]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-21 20:17:20 and read 67661 times.

Here is a picture of AI Express at Mangalore :




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Air_India_Express_Boeing_737_2078.JPG


under Wiki Commons license

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: gamps
Posted 2010-05-21 20:17:29 and read 67299 times.

I am a frequent flier to this airport and there is absolutely no space for correction as runway is on a hill surrounded by valley. This is a first major accident in this airport. RIP.

My photo of runway from 2006 - http://www.airliners.net/photo//1119346/M/

Here is another photo to give an idea of the terrain with Air India Express on the old runway..taken in October 2009.

Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 733 File size: 147kb


[Edited 2010-05-21 20:35:14]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2010-05-21 20:19:02 and read 66787 times.

MSNBC says the plane had a technical problem before landing.

Quote:
The plane had developed a technical snag in the air, and of its two engines caught fire and the plane burnt in the air before crashing, they said.

I assume they meant to write "one of its two engines".

If so, then this wasn't a normal runway overrun, but an emergency landing that didn't go well.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2010-05-21 20:19:43 and read 66376 times.

RIP to all involved.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: SPR773
Posted 2010-05-21 20:21:22 and read 66530 times.

RIP to those who were killed. My heartfelt condolences and prayers to the relatives and friends of the people who have died  

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ThreeIfByAir
Posted 2010-05-21 20:27:22 and read 66019 times.

This appears to be the end of runway 28. Slope is right to left (east to west) quite sharply

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-05-21 20:28:31 and read 65442 times.

CNN is reporting that the acft went through a boundary well and then down a long slope; I've been to Indian airports and when they say walls, they mean walls ... none of this frangible fencing business. An impact with a wall would, of course, have caused serious damage, quite likely cutting open, if not igniting, the fuel tanks.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: TBYO787
Posted 2010-05-21 20:30:49 and read 65017 times.

NDTV is talking about 60 people comfirmed dead as of now.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Vivekman2006
Posted 2010-05-21 20:32:51 and read 65173 times.

Sad news to wake up to this morning!  

Weather conditions were reported as poor. The aircraft overshot the runway, hit the boundary wall and plunged down an incline. The runway at IXE is a table-top, with valleys on three sides.

No idea about the registration yet, but one can barely make out a yellow coloured tail in the TV images.

- Vivek

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-05-21 20:33:11 and read 65868 times.

Heres the image of the wreckage

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: as739x
Posted 2010-05-21 20:37:29 and read 64529 times.

Hate to be the one to say it, but haven't we said the these happen in three's?

Libya, India, ???

RIP to everyone involved in both/

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: BW424
Posted 2010-05-21 20:38:15 and read 64358 times.

RIP to all those involved.

Very bad publicity for the 737NG once again.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ThreeIfByAir
Posted 2010-05-21 20:39:00 and read 64334 times.

The overrun for Runway 28 is roughly 800 ft, beyond which there is a 215ft elevation drop over the next 1000ft.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: TBYO787
Posted 2010-05-21 20:39:34 and read 65477 times.

Here is a Picture that show the flattened mountain.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KPDX
Posted 2010-05-21 20:45:56 and read 63662 times.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 46):
Very bad publicity for the 737NG once again.

Maybe so, but I will bet this will end up being pilot error..

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 20:48:23 and read 63294 times.

Re the weather. ( South Western ) monsoon and the Lilah storm. Was here in Sri Lanka causing a historic flood and yesterday moved to South India.
Anybody got reg ?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: jbguller
Posted 2010-05-21 20:49:42 and read 63979 times.

heres a YouTube video which shows a Jet Airways 738 landing in Mangalore. Also shows, when it starts backtracking, the end of the runway and an idea of the dropoff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml-XPUWBrX8

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2010-05-21 20:50:47 and read 62513 times.

Are we dealing with the remnants of Cyclone Laila now, or has that moved through?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: BW424
Posted 2010-05-21 20:53:50 and read 62415 times.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 49):
Maybe so, but I will bet this will end up being pilot error..

Me too, looks like pilot error once again, but you know how these ignorant lawyers and philosophical reports tend to be.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Vivekman2006
Posted 2010-05-21 20:54:54 and read 62452 times.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 52):
Are we dealing with the remnants of Cyclone Laila now, or has that moved through?

This had nothing to do with Cyclone Laila. Laila was far away from the state of Karnataka, where IXE is located.

According to some sources, the registration was VT-AXV


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley



- Vivek

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-05-21 20:55:02 and read 62169 times.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 50):
Re the weather. ( South Western ) monsoon and the Lilah storm. Was here in Sri Lanka causing a historic flood and yesterday moved to South India.
Anybody got reg ?

I doubt this is laila dependant - Mangalore is too far west - besides laila made landfall in the nellore-guntur coast on wed, weakened and headed out back to sea thursday night.



BTW is it common for runways to be placed in precarious positions like this? Seems like a damn stupid thing to do. Having been to mangalore i can vouch for the fact that there is a lotta plain ground within an hours drive from the city

[Edited 2010-05-21 21:03:08]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: AR385
Posted 2010-05-21 21:01:18 and read 61706 times.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 46):
Very bad publicity for the 737NG once again.

And why is that, exactly?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2010-05-21 21:07:58 and read 61258 times.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 49):
Maybe so, but I will bet this will end up being pilot error..

absolutely, emergency landing with engine fire.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: LAXDESI
Posted 2010-05-21 21:08:08 and read 61101 times.

Heartbreaking news. TOI is reporting the following:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...ay-60-dead/articleshow/5960931.cms

Quote:
At least 60 people are feared dead after an Air India Express aircraft from Dubai, carrying 173 passengers, overshot the runway while landing at the Mangalore airport on Saturday morning.

At least 6-8 people in critical condition have been rescued. Rescue operation was hampered by the thick smoke that engulfed the plane, airport authorities said.

All the contact with the aircraft was lost after 6.30 am as the left wing of the plane caught fire. Civil aviation minister Praful Patel has rushed to the spot.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: BW424
Posted 2010-05-21 21:08:30 and read 61343 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 56):
And why is that, exactly?

Because their have been probably 3 737 hull losses in the last 18 months including this one unfortunately. With all of them, reports say that they were pilot error, but we have seen many ignorant lawyers and other persons raising false red flags against the 737. It's just unfortunate that all happen to be 737 aircraft, so please don't take my statement as "oh, the 737 is unsafe". Just pointing out the realities of the situation as people would be quick to get a scapegoat.The same goes for the A330. Certain persons out there were trying to label the 330 as unsafe, especialyy with the recent TIP A330 crash.

[Edited 2010-05-21 21:14:33]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-21 21:10:43 and read 60982 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 45):
but haven't we said the these happen in three's?

So far this year commercial passenger crashes with majority fatalities
Jan 25 - Boeing Lebanon
May 12 - Airbus Libya
May 15 - Antonov Surname
May 17 - Antonov Afghanistan
May 22 - Boeing India

Plus the Polish Tu-154 in Russia Apr 10 and the Airbus A300 cargo crash in Mexico Apr 13.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: LAXDESI
Posted 2010-05-21 21:11:41 and read 61117 times.

LA Times has a photo of the crash site on its front page.
http://www.latimes.com/

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: aarbee
Posted 2010-05-21 21:14:40 and read 60474 times.

CNN reports drizzling in morning.

D P Satish - CNN news editor in Delhi ... says Air India safety record poor. What nonsense.

My prayers to all affected. RIP

R

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: stasisLAX
Posted 2010-05-21 21:14:41 and read 60440 times.

The airport's location, on a plateau surrounded by hills, made it difficult for the firefighters to reach the scene Saturday, officials said.

Pre-monsoon rains over the past two days caused low visibility in the area, officials said.

Mangalore airport is about 19 miles away from Mangalore city.

Above from the Associated Press wire....

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ojas
Posted 2010-05-21 21:14:56 and read 60528 times.

A very sad day. RIP to all dead.

Here is a sample landing video at IXE

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Nq7fzemZCZU&feature=related

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-05-21 21:15:44 and read 60510 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 60):
but haven't we said the these happen in three's?

Frankly, I've always considered that superstitious nonsense; over what period are they counting (if it's over a three month period, does that count); it doesn't add anything to air safety.

However, it is true to say that 2010 is looking to be a fairly bad year for air safety.

Even before today's crash, the number of fatalities for this year has been well above the 10 year average at this stage of the year (266); with this accident, the 2010 figure will go above 500 and we're not even half way through the year:

http://aviation-safety.net/index.php

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 21:15:48 and read 60601 times.

Threeifbyair, BTYO787, Shmertspionem Your photos have been used at http://www.airlineindustryreview.com/urgent-ix812-crash/ , with attribution

@Vivek can you confirm it is AXV ?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: aarbee
Posted 2010-05-21 21:17:40 and read 60312 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 45):
Hate to be the one to say it, but haven't we said the these happen in three's?

Libya, India, ???

Seems that is 4th fatal one this year. Ethiopian in Jan, Polish government, Libyan, followed by this.

R

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 21:23:14 and read 60164 times.

CONFIRMED VT-AXV
http://data.flight24.com/airplanes/vt-axv/

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Springbok747
Posted 2010-05-21 21:26:40 and read 59676 times.

Just saw the news..wow...VT-AXV..I actually flew on that aircraft last year... *shudder*

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: SQ_EK_freak
Posted 2010-05-21 21:31:07 and read 59466 times.

Quoting aarbee (Reply 67):
Seems that is 4th fatal one this year. Ethiopian in Jan, Polish government, Libyan, followed by this.

Don't forget Pamir in Afghanistan, which is looking to be a 0 survivor crash...  

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-05-21 21:32:57 and read 58939 times.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 61):
LA Times has a photo of the crash site on its front page.
http://www.latimes.com/

It also says "160 Killed". Is that even confirmed yet?

Sad tragedy.

-Dave

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: PLANAR
Posted 2010-05-21 21:33:21 and read 59122 times.

Quoting Vivekman2006 (Reply 54):
This had nothing to do with Cyclone Laila. Laila was far away from the state of Karnataka, where IXE is located.

According to some sources, the registration was VT-AXV

What a beautiful aircraft. The Air India Express color scheme is so beautiful.

So tragic. One can only hope the deceased didn't suffer much and are in a better place. :,-(

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Cassi
Posted 2010-05-21 21:37:51 and read 58745 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 57):
absolutely, emergency landing with engine fire.

According to the latest reports the pilot didn't report any malfunctions before landing.

It is the unfortunate placement of the runway that lead to so many casualties, it reminds me of the TAM Flight 3054 accident in Brazil.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 21:39:01 and read 58542 times.

AXV has flown three/four sector yesterday, seems average daily. Could be long-haul ( DXB etc ) and of course could be even a low utilisation as well.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-05-21 21:39:03 and read 58884 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 28):
There is a 150' ditch at the end of the runway that the aircraft appeared to have fallen into.

150 feet is a little more than a ditch.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 46):
Very bad publicity for the 737NG once again.

We haven't the slightest idea why this happened yet but we can already assume that this reflects badly on the 737?  
Quoting KPDX (Reply 49):
Maybe so, but I will bet this will end up being pilot error..

Considering what is known at this point, I don't think that is a fair assumption either.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 58):
All the contact with the aircraft was lost after 6.30 am as the left wing of the plane caught fire.

Hopefully we will find out the exact timing of the wing catching on fire soon to see whether it was before the landing, or as a result of the landing.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: spdbrdconcorde
Posted 2010-05-21 21:39:26 and read 59127 times.

VT-AXV......RIP...  Sad  brokenheart 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/victork.../sizes/m/in/set-72157623032846942/

[Edited 2010-05-21 21:41:37]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-21 21:39:35 and read 58078 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 71):
It also says "160 Killed". Is that even confirmed yet?

No much too early to know for sure. The 160 figure is based on Indian reports of "more than 160 dead"

Apparently 165 passengers (161 revenue and 4 infants) and 6 crew - 171 onboard - "8 to 10 survivors taken to the hospital"

Much too soon to have a firm count of survivors or fatalities - but the 160 figure is probably close and a minimum.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2010-05-21 21:43:31 and read 57789 times.

Quoting Cassi (Reply 73):
It is the unfortunate placement of the runway that lead to so many casualties

Waaaaaaaay too early to make that determination. Overrun almost any runway at high enough speed and you will end up with lots of casualties.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-21 21:52:12 and read 57073 times.

Yes, but a steep slope dropping 150-200 feet means no room for any mistakes.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: litz
Posted 2010-05-21 21:53:42 and read 57122 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 78):

Waaaaaaaay too early to make that determination. Overrun almost any runway at high enough speed and you will end up with lots of casualties.

I'd add on top of that ... Overrun a runway at high speed and literally (not figuratively) fall off a cliff ...

Short of running into a cliff (as opposed to falling off of one), this is about the worst of the possible worst case scenarios that's possible.

- litz

[Edited 2010-05-21 21:54:35]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: jayeshrulz
Posted 2010-05-21 22:05:37 and read 56702 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 79):
Yes, but a steep slope dropping 150-200 feet means no room for any mistakes.
Quoting litz (Reply 80):
I'd add on top of that ... Overrun a runway at high speed and literally (not figuratively) fall off a cliff ...

Short of running into a cliff (as opposed to falling off of one), this is about the worst of the possible worst case scenarios that's possible.

- litz

The news is reporting that, the aircraft overshot the runway.If there was no cliff of 200', MANY could have been saved!


News reports that People at the rear were the ones most rescued (4 i guess ).

145 confirmed dead. 15 more expected.Rest have been confirmed dead  


Report Says :- Pilot Error. Pilot Missed the runway by 1950 feet, due to which it missed the touchdown point.
Low Visibility Seen.
Does AIX Have CAT-3 capable aircraft? Is Mangalore Runway CAT-2/3?

[Edited 2010-05-21 22:14:20]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: FlyWhisperjets
Posted 2010-05-21 22:11:42 and read 55985 times.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 58):
Heartbreaking news. TOI is reporting the following:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...ay-60-dead/articleshow/5960931.cms

Quote:
At least 60 people are feared dead after an Air India Express aircraft from Dubai, carrying 173 passengers, overshot the runway while landing at the Mangalore airport on Saturday morning.

At least 6-8 people in critical condition have been rescued. Rescue operation was hampered by the thick smoke that engulfed the plane, airport authorities said.

All the contact with the aircraft was lost after 6.30 am as the left wing of the plane caught fire. Civil aviation minister Praful Patel has rushed to the spot.

What planet is this news report from????Is it a typo? 60 or 160.......God Bless......

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: hugoandres1984
Posted 2010-05-21 22:15:18 and read 55822 times.

Today is a sad day in aviation also YV158E crash in Puerto Ordaz Venezuela i was a C182

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-05-21 22:16:12 and read 55612 times.

Quoting FlyWhisperjets (Reply 82):
What planet is this news report from????Is it a typo? 60 or 160.......God Bless......

Depends on when the report was originally filed; remember that it's still only early hours and it may well have been that initial reports from IXE spoke of only 60 fatalities; it's still only the early hours after the accident and it's understandably, initial reports can be confused. The Times of India is a hugely respected newspaper, and apart from the (possible) error in fatalities, the rest of the report looks fine.

VT-AXV was delivered in January 2008 and was line number 2481.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 22:16:36 and read 55664 times.

What is this story about wing catching fire fire ?
Well, of course, if they landed to an airport without a steep slope, they could've survived.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: spdbrdconcorde
Posted 2010-05-21 22:16:54 and read 55828 times.

One of the survivors relative says that a tire exploded during high speed taxi and went off the cliff...

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_live.php?id=LIVE_BG24x7&live=tv

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 22:36:19 and read 54724 times.

High speed 'taxi' ? Shouldn't it be landing ?
There are photos, but graphic. Courtesy of Rodrigo of BNO wire.

Guys these photos are VERY GRAPHIC. Is it ok to upload them here ?

[Edited 2010-05-21 22:46:33]

[Edited 2010-05-21 23:02:29]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: FlyingBird
Posted 2010-05-21 22:54:35 and read 53620 times.

http://data.flight24.com/flights/ix812/
http://data.flight24.com/airplanes/vt-axv/

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 22:56:48 and read 54025 times.

Here you go..

Last two photos deleted by request.
Copyright original photographers

[Edited 2010-05-21 23:01:10]

[Edited 2010-05-21 23:23:12]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2010-05-21 23:01:14 and read 53328 times.

photo link http://sify.com/news/Over-150-killed...kfwlorhdfec.html?hgallery=14942623

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: zainmax
Posted 2010-05-21 23:02:28 and read 52866 times.

Currently they are saying 6 passengers have survived.
RIP for all.
This month is a nightmare for aviation.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: BW424
Posted 2010-05-21 23:09:13 and read 52860 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 75):
We haven't the slightest idea why this happened yet but we can already assume that this reflects badly on the 737?

Apparently you didn't read my subsequent posts.  If any aircraft type crashes, it's bad publicity to that particular aircraft, regardless of its cause. Once again, the reason I made that statement is that we have had 3 737NG unfortunate hull losses in an 18mth period , all apparently due to pilot error. This most recent accident will inevitably add bad press to the 737. I can see reporters now saying " A similar incident happened not too long ago with an AA 737 attempting to land into KIN".
If it were an A320, the same would occur!!

Please, do not twist my post.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 81):
The news is reporting that, the aircraft overshot the runway.If there was no cliff of 200', MANY could have been saved!

I concur. As another poster said, it reminds me of the TAM A320 incident, as well as the TACA A320 incident at TGU, though that one, to a lessor extent.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: BP1
Posted 2010-05-21 23:10:16 and read 52639 times.

The second picture from the bottom and the last picture are emotionally hard to look at..... No words to express how sad this is. This is another reminder of the industry that we love so much and are so passionate about is also deathly lethal too. Very very sad. - thank you for the pictures and for the reality check!

How can the press already have determined the cause of the crash? -Tthe government of India and Boeing will take months to make the ruling.

BP1

[Edited 2010-05-21 23:14:32]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Springbok747
Posted 2010-05-21 23:13:14 and read 52299 times.

Nothing about the tragedy on the Air India Express website..or on the AI website..which is quite shocking. At least they can update their site and provide emergency contact numbers etc.
6 survivors have been taken to the hospital.

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/air-i...ane-crashes-in-mangalore-27051.php

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: BW424
Posted 2010-05-21 23:17:04 and read 51988 times.

Quoting zainmax (Reply 93):
Currently they are saying 6 passengers have survived.
RIP for all.
This month is a nightmare for aviation.

I wish those survivors a speedy recovery. More than likely the whole event would have been a blur to them, but when they are in a mentally stable condition to talk, hopefully they can provide some insight into the whole scenario.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Vivekman2006
Posted 2010-05-21 23:23:23 and read 51715 times.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 96):
Nothing about the tragedy on the Air India Express website..or on the AI website..which is quite shocking.

Nothing on the AIX website, but there is a small update on the AI website.

http://home.airindia.in/SBCMS/WebPag...10-ai-express-ix-812-incident.aspx

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: MorcegoA330
Posted 2010-05-21 23:41:52 and read 50764 times.

BBC report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/10141297.stm

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2010-05-21 23:42:59 and read 50917 times.

What a difficult rescue...almost looks like it's down in a hole...

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 23:43:28 and read 50656 times.

Thanks Gonzalo. IXE has two runways, as per Wikipedia ( bad source for some stuff, but gotta be correct ). This happened on the 10/28 9000ft+ runway.

Anyway, was there really an in-flight fire ? If so, overrun might not be the sole reason for crash. Devesh of BLR Aviation states it overshot as far into a nearby village, and the villagers took injured to hospital since it took rescue teams some time to reach the hard-to-reach location.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: FlyingBird
Posted 2010-05-21 23:44:02 and read 50745 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 101):
Regarding the accident, some reports says that Mangalore has a good and modern airport, but World Aero Data shows IXE/VOML with a 5.300 ft. runway, without ILS

Smolensk - no ILS
Tripoli - no ILS
Mangalore - no ILS

How many of this 350 lives could have been saved with ILS?

[Edited 2010-05-21 23:44:47]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2010-05-21 23:48:15 and read 50429 times.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 81):
The news is reporting that, the aircraft overshot the runway.If there was no cliff of 200', MANY could have been saved!

Sure, if there was no cliff, and no runway lights, and no buildings, and the world was 100% flat, then no overrun would ever kill anybody.

The fact of the matter is an airplane overrunning a runway will eventually hit something. That's why pilots are trained on how to avoid it! Here's what can happen even when there's no cliff at the end of a runway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Air_Africa_crash

Every time there's an overrun, people say "oh, if this wasn't there at the end of the runway, everybody would have survived" - it just doesn't work that way. Yes, if life was perfect, planes wouldn't crash at all. But you can't build airports in a vacuum. Does that mean the airport is unsafe? No - have most of us even heard of Mangalore airport before today? This despite probably dozens of takeoffs and landings there every day.

This neverending quest some people have to make every airport perfect every time there's an overrun is the same mentality that drives stupid security rules every time there's a breach of some kind. Life isn't perfect and it never will be. That doesn't mean you can't always strive to design better, safer airports, but there is always going to be something at the end of that runway. At N'Dolo Airport, it was a market. At JFK, it's the Belt Parkway. At Mangalore, it's a cliff. Regardless of where you are, you're gonna hit something if you go off the runway.

Airports like this should have EMAS, which would alleviate a lot of accidents like this. The cliff is not the problem.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 23:49:23 and read 50311 times.

Well, lack of ILS could be a non-contributor here. There was not any considerable visibility issue, as per reports. The key issue was the slope. That really was bad airport design rather than bad infrastructure.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: flybynight
Posted 2010-05-21 23:52:09 and read 50317 times.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 94):
Apparently you didn't read my subsequent posts. If any aircraft type crashes, it's bad publicity to that particular aircraft, regardless of its cause. Once again, the reason I made that statement is that we have had 3 737NG unfortunate hull losses in an 18mth period , all apparently due to pilot error. This most recent accident will inevitably add bad press to the 737. I can see reporters now saying " A similar incident happened not too long ago with an AA 737 attempting to land into KIN".
If it were an A320, the same would occur!!

Well, with more 737's out there than any other current passenger plane, I guess statsticially speaking more crashes are going to happen with this plane.

I fly with Alaska most of the time, and well, 737's is my choice!   

Sad to think the plane had actually landed but for whatever reason couldn't get stopped in time. Pictures of the Air France A340-300 in Toronto come to mind.....a much happier outcome.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-21 23:57:22 and read 49923 times.

@jayeshrulz I'm afraid I have to disagree. This is not said to disgrace India, I know there are many modern airports and am sure India is one of the countries with least accidents in modern history. But if there was a market or whichever, but no steep valley - the damage could have been minimised. This does not mean having a market or parkway will cause in no injuries. But it will always be helpful than having a slope. The slope, as I understand, causes the aircraft to be destructed from the high-energy falldown. Plus, it makes rescue missions much hard. Nevertheless, if the aircraft had been having some issue from earlier ( the reported wing fire ), then it might be not 100% pilot error too.

[Edited 2010-05-21 23:59:06]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-22 00:04:32 and read 49441 times.

Oh my god.. Did anyone realise this was the deadliest accident in 2010 so far ?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: CptRegionalJet
Posted 2010-05-22 00:05:11 and read 49461 times.

Quoting FlyingBird (Reply 105):
Smolensk - no ILS
Tripoli - no ILS
Mangalore - no ILS

How many of this 350 lives could have been saved with ILS?

While an ILS is always the "safest" option,non precision approaches are by no means dangerous manouvers.
It's all a matter of knowing your aircraft and its capabilities,adhere to your SO-Procedures for that kind of approach and
respect weather minima.If in any doubt call it a go around.....
And last not least it takes some basic flying skills and airmanship.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: jayeshrulz
Posted 2010-05-22 00:05:44 and read 49706 times.

Guys! Relax!

what am i saying is, atleast many if not all could have been saved!

Did i even mention that the crash would not have happened?
Sure it would have, but i was not there, so i dont dare speak a word and predict how the things happened.

Will the NTSB investigate too?

But whatever, its a very sad day for India.
Deep condolences to the family who lost their loved ones.  

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: BW424
Posted 2010-05-22 00:07:46 and read 49321 times.

Quoting flybynight (Reply 108):
Well, with more 737's out there than any other current passenger plane, I guess statsticially speaking more crashes are going to happen with this plane.

Agreed. That doesn't take away the inevitable reflex bad publicity the aircraft will get from ignorant media.

Quoting flybynight (Reply 108):
fly with Alaska most of the time, and well, 737's is my choice!

Myself as well. Some people look to make more out of a statement than it really is I'm afraid.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 107):
Well, lack of ILS could be a non-contributor here. There was not any considerable visibility issue, as per reports

Wasn't there heavy rain which contributed to poor visibility?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2010-05-22 00:11:25 and read 49112 times.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 104):
Thanks Gonzalo. IXE has two runways, as per Wikipedia ( bad source for some stuff, but gotta be correct ). This happened on the 10/28 9000ft+ runway.

You're Welcome, and thanks to you too for the clarifications, but I have to say I'm a little confused about this airport layout, I check two different airports data base, both shows only the short runway ( 5,300 ft ) as operational, I check wiki too and they mention the new runway is operational since 2006 ( ? )... anybody can confirm where the landing was ? Was the longer runway available ?


Quoting FlyingBird (Reply 105):
How many of this 350 lives could have been saved with ILS?

That's a good question, like Spacecadet said, maybe not a single soul could be saved even with an ILS, you need autoland capabilities in the aircraft too, and the Smolensk aircraft , a 30 years old Tu 154, probably can't make CAT II or CAT III approaches, please somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't want to blame the crews of this accidents you mention without a final report available with conclusive evidence, but in similar accidents in the past ( TACA in Honduras, TAM in Brazil, Garuda in Yogyakarta Indonesia and many more ) a common factor was the "get-there-itis", or "Go Around-Fobia", with hot approaches ending in tragedy.

For this lasts accidents we have to wait a long time to know the contributing factors.

Rgds.
G.

[Edited 2010-05-22 00:22:22]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: B747forever
Posted 2010-05-22 00:24:19 and read 48380 times.

I just saw this on the news. I am very shocked. It has not been a good few last weeks for aviation.

May they all rest in peace.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2010-05-22 00:25:01 and read 48508 times.

Boeing has sent a team. Funny enough, they still call it IX892 http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1219

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ap305
Posted 2010-05-22 00:33:38 and read 48016 times.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 112):
Guys! Relax!

what am i saying is, atleast many if not all could have been saved!

Did i even mention that the crash would not have happened?
Sure it would have, but i was not there, so i dont dare speak a word and predict how the things happened.

Will the NTSB investigate too?

But whatever, its a very sad day for India.
Deep condolences to the family who lost their loved ones.

Since its an American built a/c an ntsb employee may be part of the investigation but the dgca will likely be the lead...irritating to see our local media reporting all kinds of speculation with the usual "sources"... Sad Sad day for Indian aviation...RIP

[Edited 2010-05-22 00:34:38]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: pilotaydin
Posted 2010-05-22 00:38:15 and read 47711 times.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 33):
FFS, what's up with all the major aviation accidents this year?

As someone in the field of accident investigation, and also analysis as a secondary job to flying, I can tell you that I've sifted through a lot of reports...while according to Annex 13 of ICAO, reports don't produce a summary sentence that says...this is why the a/c crashed (and aportion blame), we do always go into more detail and try to categorize. There will always be a tendancy for events like this to happen, as the global aviation industry has a lot more aicraft, with a lot fewer experienced pilots...i,e low flight time....now for this accident i will not comment, it's brand new....but taking into account colgan air and TK1951, both accidents which i have gone into a lot of depth....with one, letting a captain or pilot make it that far with such a record, and with the other, the training requirements for simulator recurrents by JAA not requiring a stall recovery ever again after the initial type rating...these are flaws with the systems we have in our aviation world today...put together with this...what i call Amateur operations of certain airlines and startups...and we have a recipe for disaster....aviation is becoming less safe because of the human element once again...the recent crahes in Africa (less the A330 - no assumptions no report) the kenya and the ethiopian and also the crash off the comoros with the A310, we see that there is a mess to be dealt with...there are only a certain number of rules you can put down, but these rules will not protect you...in smaller companies, postholders change quickly, leaving behind a mess for the next postholder to face, and combine this with pilots trying to build flight time at those companies, and you increase the risk analysis numbers...this is one of the reasonds why we see less accidents occuring at legacy airlines, than charters and small startups....just my 2 cents, i have a lore more ideas i don't wanna bore lol

Quoting FlyingBird (Reply 105):
How many of this 350 lives could have been saved with ILS?

hmm, interesting point....while the ILS is safe because it adds in one more dimension with precise guidance, this may only solve the problem of brining in the aircraft closer to a safe landing...remember the AF A340 that went off in Posted 2010-05-22 00:56:40 and read 46875 times.

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 118):
what do u guys think?

Good point.While an ILS always guides you accurately towards the runway,the "risks" during landing phase are the same as during non precision approaches.Also the widespread use of ILS leads to being "out of training" when a non precision approach might suddenly be your only option.I for example hardly recall my last real (not in the simulator)NDB approach in IMC,must have been last year somewhere in Poland.So it is of most importance to know and stick to your SOP during such approaches....

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-05-22 01:00:49 and read 46807 times.

Heres the latest

8 SURVIVORS REPORTED

no distress signal from pilot

poor visibility

one man lost 16 members of his family

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-05-22 01:11:05 and read 46402 times.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 104):
Thanks Gonzalo. IXE has two runways, as per Wikipedia ( bad source for some stuff, but gotta be correct ). This happened on the 10/28 9000ft+ runway.

People need to give Wikipedia with a little more credit than it is getting.
From the AIP, Mangalore's longest runway (06/24) is Runway 06/24 8038 × 151 ft (2450 × 46 m)

Quoting FlyingBird (Reply 105):
Mangalore - no ILS

How many of this 350 lives could have been saved with ILS?

RUnway 24 has an ILS, the ILS24 approach is valid for ICAO Cat A, B & C aircraft.

Threshold 24 is 308ft high, the DA for the ILS approach is 510 for A/B, and 520 for Cat C... which is 212ft above threshold elevation... The final approach course is 240 and it is aligned straight with the runway (no significant offset). It is also equipped with simple approach lighting (adequate for Cat I ILS) extending to 240m from the threshold, and a PAPI at 3degs (nothing strange there). BUT, what's interesting is that the AIP does says there's no runway end light (those red runway end lights) for 24 or 06.

You can find the info here:
http://www.airportsindia.org.in/misc/Aeronautical_Information.jsp
Or... specifically for the approach:
http://www.aai.aero/public_notices/(VOML_8)_ILS24(BW).pdf

The runway obstacles/limitations chart also specify "DEEP VALLEY" beyond the 06 threshold.

Due to the accident, Localizer antennae for ILS24 has been hit... and is NOTAMed.

Quote:
A0972/10 NOTAMN
Q) VOMF/QICAU/I/NBO/A/000/999/
A) VOML B) 1005220700 C) 1005221230 EST
E) ILS RWY24 NOT AVBL DUE LLZ ANTENNA DAMAGE
CREATED: 22 May 2010 07:16:00
SOURCE: VOMMYNYX

A0970/10 NOTAMR A0969/10
Q) VOMF/QFFCG/IV/NBO/A/000/999/
A) VOML B) 1005220528 C) 1005221630
E) AD EMERG CAT V AVBL
CREATED: 22 May 2010 05:37:00
SOURCE: VOMMYNYX
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 106):
"oh, if this wasn't there at the end of the runway, everybody would have survived" - it just doesn't work that way.

Exactly, your performance numbers should mean that you can legally land at the designated runway with 60% spare on maximum braking... and once you're airborne, you choose the braking/retardation method suitable to your preference, as long as the method allows you to stop on the runway.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 114):
hat's a good question, like Spacecadet said, maybe not a single soul could be saved even with an ILS, you need autoland capabilities in the aircraft too, and the Smolensk aircraft , a 30 years old Tu 154, probably can't make CAT II or CAT III approaches, please somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't want to blame the crews of this accidents you mention without a final report available with conclusive evidence, but in similar accidents in the past ( TACA in Honduras, TAM in Brazil, Garuda in Yogyakarta Indonesia and many more ) a common factor was the "get-there-itis", or "Go Around-Fobia", with hot approaches ending in tragedy.

Ironically, Garuda 200 (in Yogyakarta) was an ILS approach...

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 114):
but taking into account colgan air and TK1951, both accidents which i have gone into a lot of depth....with one, letting a captain or pilot make it that far with such a record, and with the other, the training requirements for simulator recurrents by JAA not requiring a stall recovery ever again after the initial type rating...these are flaws with the systems we have in our aviation world today...put together with this.

Strangely, in the light of Colgan, TK and a few other stall related accidents, Airbus has modified its stall recovery procedures... but that's a separate topic.

Quoting CptRegionalJet (Reply 115):
While an ILS always guides you accurately towards the runway,the "risks" during landing phase are the same as during non precision approaches.Also the widespread use of ILS leads to being "out of training" when a non precision approach might suddenly be your only option.I for example hardly recall my last real (not in the simulator)NDB approach in IMC,must have been last year somewhere in Poland.So it is of most importance to know and stick to your SOP during such approaches....

This is absolutely true! ILS isn't risk free. There are also the "double gradient false slope", and in some places, there's a 1/2 gradient false slope too... which can lead into disaster if one's not careful!
Non-precision approaches... I enjoy watching them being performed... less boring...    Marginal visual approaches are fun... if one can stop ego from taking over   

Quoting flybynight (Reply 104):
I fly with Alaska most of the time, and well, 737's is my choice!

My choice has always been to fly with a good and professional crew, regardless of the type...   

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 116):
no distress signal from pilot

poor visibility

Remember the India Express "lawnmower incident" a while back when someone decided to "let's try and do an autoland on this plane on a CAT I ILS"?    Anyways, cynicism aside...
This is what? 2 "morning arrivals from a redeye fligth" in a row????
I wonder if fatigue needs to be looked at again... who knows...

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: aviationbuff
Posted 2010-05-22 01:13:44 and read 46062 times.

Very sad incident .... most of the passengers were people returning home for vacation.
RIP to all dead and speedy recovery for the survivors.

Just heard on NDTV that the survivors are those people who managed to jumped out of the aircraft. (no idea how ....)

As per Airfleet.net the aircraft is only TWO years old

Registration : VT-AXV
Serial number 36333 LN:2481
Type 737-8HG
First flight date 20/12/2007
Test registration N1787B
Delivery Date 15/01/2008

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b737ng-36333.htm

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-05-22 01:16:40 and read 46479 times.

Heres some more

one survivor - Abdullah - jumped from the overwing door while plane was still skidding !?
- this was when it was sliding down the gorge

onlookers are congregating - police are doing nothing to shoo them away - and this might affect the investigation - you can see the on this image
one survivor said that there was amassive vibration when the plane landed and that it broke in two on the runway itself - possibly a very hard landing resulting in wheel collapse?

heres some pics emerging - PLEASE BE WARNED SOME ARE VERY VERY DISTURBING!!!!!




MOD EDIT: To remove graphic images.

[Edited 2010-05-22 03:20:13 by EI787]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: pilotaydin
Posted 2010-05-22 01:19:28 and read 46125 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 119):

I'm glad you posted these pics with disturbing images....it will make some know it all users on here think twice before bashing any pilot, controller, technician or any other person so carelessly....and making some irresponsible comment

these things happen, and will continue to happen....

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: jayeshrulz
Posted 2010-05-22 01:28:24 and read 45560 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 71):
It also says "160 Killed". Is that even confirmed yet?

Sad tragedy.

-Dave

yes
165 dead  

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: cakentennis
Posted 2010-05-22 01:34:46 and read 45368 times.

I just cannot digest that picture with the burnt corpse and exposed bones. This is undoubtedly one of the worst tragedies India has witnessed in the last two decades.

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 120):
I'm glad you posted these pics with disturbing images....it will make some know it all users on here think twice before bashing any pilot, controller, technician or any other person so carelessly....and making some irresponsible comment

these things happen, and will continue to happen....

I was annoyed after reading some of the comments on this thread too. People should understand that gravity of their remarks before making them.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Cricket
Posted 2010-05-22 01:37:15 and read 45013 times.

Thankfully there are 7 or 8 survivors, terrible tragedy the first major air accident in India since the Chakri Dadri collision.

RIP to those who perished.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: worldliner
Posted 2010-05-22 01:41:55 and read 44927 times.

"The plane shook with vibrations and split into two," a survivor called Pradeep told CNN-IBN television.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...Mangalore_Southern_India,_158_Dead

158 dead according to Sky News.

prayers with all involved

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: FatmirJusufi
Posted 2010-05-22 01:42:30 and read 44845 times.

Aviation safety is reporting for 160 victims.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20100522-0


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wim Callaert



My deepest condolences to relatives and families.   

Fatmir

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: A380Heavy
Posted 2010-05-22 01:47:09 and read 44734 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 119):
PLEASE BE WARNED SOME ARE VERY VERY DISTURBING!!!!!

In the interests of taste can you please remove the penultimate picture and the one before that - these two shots show dead bodies in seats or sprawled across them. I think we can all picture the carnage without these graphic photos.

Please remember that these people are someones loved ones.

I am sorry if my opinion offends others.

RIP to all those who perished and my very best wishes to the lucky few who have survived this terrible accident.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Vimanav
Posted 2010-05-22 01:47:53 and read 44716 times.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 106):
Oh my god.. Did anyone realise this was the deadliest accident in 2010 so far ?

Actually its the worst of 8 hull loss accidents for the B737-800 - exceeding the number of lives lost in the Gol accident of Sep 2006.

Its the 3rd worst accident ever in terms of lives lost for an Indian registered aircraft (AI B742-Kanishka and AI B742-Emperor Ashoka accidents in 1985 and 1978 had higher casualties)

Its also the 3rd worst in terms of lives lost in an air crash in India (the Saudi-Kazakh mid-air 1996, and Emperor Ashoka 1978 were worse)

While its too early to pin the blame on any particular factor, could wind-shear have had a role?

My prayers and thoughts with those who perished and those who survived.

brgds//Vimanav

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-05-22 01:51:18 and read 44538 times.

Quoting cakentennis (Reply 122):
Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 120):
I'm glad you posted these pics with disturbing images....it will make some know it all users on here think twice before bashing any pilot, controller, technician or any other person so carelessly....and making some irresponsible comment

these things happen, and will continue to happen....

I was annoyed after reading some of the comments on this thread too. People should understand that gravity of their remarks before making them.

If you're angry with that - wait till you watch what's on TV here - every two bit reporter and rented "aviation expert" giving the most shockingly irresponsible - disrespectful - ill informed and tasteless - commentary. The worst was harrying and trying to break into the house of the man who lost 16 members of his family. This is exactly what they did during the Mumbai terror attack. These people are worse than pedophiles

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: tarunkashyap14
Posted 2010-05-22 01:52:10 and read 44470 times.

Flight IX 812 was commanded by British national of Serbian origin Capt Zlatko Glusica and First officer S.S Ahluwalia...may their soul RIP.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Vimanav
Posted 2010-05-22 01:54:40 and read 44293 times.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 123):
Thankfully there are 7 or 8 survivors, terrible tragedy the first major air accident in India since the Chakri Dadri collision

Actually the crash of July 17, 2000 VT-EGD B732 in Patna was the last commercial airplane disaster in India with fatalities. 60 killed.

brgds//Vimanav

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2010-05-22 02:07:13 and read 43766 times.

well this is from Times of India:

"Sadananda Gowda, who is the BJP MP from Mangalore, said the accident happened after a wing of the aircraft hit a hillock when the pilot attempted to take off after the plane overshot the runway while landing."


now would there be even enough move for the pilot to even attempt a take off after an overshot of the runway in question??

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: worldliner
Posted 2010-05-22 02:09:39 and read 43594 times.

Indian Tv are saying they have recovered 116 bodies, so i am guessing that 116 is the confirmed number of fatalities.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ap305
Posted 2010-05-22 02:24:16 and read 43071 times.

Headlines Today quoting the Home minister that the captain had 26 cycles and the fo 66 cycles at Mangalore

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2010-05-22 02:28:43 and read 43031 times.

Why do the media get dramatic & not stick to facts........ 

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ap305
Posted 2010-05-22 02:33:37 and read 42993 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 134):
Why do the media get dramatic & not stick to facts........

I cringed when i was shifting through the channels and saw a Hindi channel claiming that the plane lost its "balance" when it braked   

[Edited 2010-05-22 02:34:03]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Springbok747
Posted 2010-05-22 02:33:43 and read 42760 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 128):
If you're angry with that - wait till you watch what's on TV here - every two bit reporter and rented "aviation expert" giving the most shockingly irresponsible - disrespectful - ill informed and tasteless - commentary

Ugh...7 "news" is the worst. They even got the aircraft wrong..they had a picture of an AI 744 (in old colours too). And the so-called "aviation experts" were making some disgusting comments..like"oh..its a 3rd world airport, things like this are bound to happen".

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: victor009
Posted 2010-05-22 02:45:27 and read 42191 times.

Well i wont say 3rd world etc etc. But this was bound to happen, I have been using that airport since i was 4 (as far i as know) travel every year, minimum for 2 takeoffs and 2 lanidings a year and it has always worried me.

This was the new runway ( i am thinking) so its longer than the old, If you see the old one you will get a shock, only 737's used to fly there, with the introduction of new runway all narrow bodies have started incl A321 (Kingfisher) test flew that route.

So , its a very sad for all of us, Me coiming from that place and also as a aviation fan but guys this was bound to happen. The pressure from managment, not to delay and anger from people etc etc can all contribute to factors pilot may have tried to land it in heavy rain.

RIP to all souls

VJC

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: NEMA
Posted 2010-05-22 02:53:24 and read 41925 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 79):
Yes, but a steep slope dropping 150-200 feet means no room for any mistakes.


Listening to a BBC news report this morning, this is apparently one of those airports where pilots have to have special training in advance of flying there, a bit like Funchal (FNC) in Maderia.

Yet another sad day in aviation.

[Edited 2010-05-22 02:54:52]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2010-05-22 02:57:48 and read 41682 times.

The Safety record in this region has been excellent in the last decade.
This Airport & this Aircraft type have been flying thousands of hrs in this region.
Lets await the finding of the Investigation before jumping to conclusions.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: moderators
Posted 2010-05-22 03:02:32 and read 41579 times.

The moderating team has had to remove several photos from this thread which were felt to be inappropriate.

Please can members respect the sensitivities of others when deciding which pictures to post. This is not censorship by the crew, but a degree of consideration needs to be shown by members when thinking about posting such images. We are still reviewing some of the pictures in this thread, and further deletions may be necessary.

Members wishing to share graphic images of this crash which other members may find offensive, should post a link to the images with a clear warning of their graphic nature. Do not post such images directly in this thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.



[Edited 2010-05-22 03:44:32 by scbriml]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: 777way
Posted 2010-05-22 03:20:03 and read 40784 times.

NDTV live news in english http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_live.php?id=LIVE_BG24x7&live=tv

Ticker passenger list shows a high number of people from the minority communities.

[Edited 2010-05-22 03:34:05]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: thegreatRDU
Posted 2010-05-22 03:28:44 and read 40511 times.

Nowadays pilot error is responsible for over 70% of crashes....I don't think this will be any different...

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 03:43:32 and read 40271 times.

I've flown into this runway as a kid, it was absolutely terrifying. You overshoot, you go straight down, hundreds of feet. Just woke up to this new. RIP to everyone.. What a sad loss for AIX  

Bad year for aviation..  

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 03:45:16 and read 39928 times.

CNN-IBN reporting 8 survivors.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ai-plane-...lties-feared/115923-3.html?from=tn

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 03:51:06 and read 39796 times.

The CNN-IBN article says the plane touched down about 2000 feet past the 'touchdown point'. Surely this would call for an go-around, right? Considering its such a dangerous runway?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: 777way
Posted 2010-05-22 04:00:06 and read 39337 times.

These crashes are the worst for those who dislike flying just when they have landed or are close to landing this happens.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 04:07:35 and read 39128 times.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 81):

The news is reporting that, the aircraft overshot the runway.If there was no cliff of 200', MANY could have been saved!

If you're familiar with the geography of Mangalore, you'd know that it falls right on the Western Ghats. The Deccan Plateau ends very abruptly and you have an ocean. Its almost impossible to construct an airport anywhere else in this city. Its obvious with no cliff, many people could have been saved. But something like that can be said about every crash. "If the plane had four engines, many could have been saved".

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 81):


Report Says :- Pilot Error. Pilot Missed the runway by 1950 feet, due to which it missed the touchdown point.
Low Visibility Seen.
Does AIX Have CAT-3 capable aircraft? Is Mangalore Runway CAT-2/3?

CAT 2/3 is not required for Mangalore. It merely suffers from tropical thunderstorms every now and then and the airport would be closed in such circumstances anyway, due to the heavy, heavy rain. It would be wasteful expenditure.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: pilotaydin
Posted 2010-05-22 04:15:22 and read 38852 times.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 146):
The CNN-IBN article says the plane touched down about 2000 feet past the 'touchdown point'. Surely this would call for an go-around, right? Considering its such a dangerous runway?

I was thinking of the AA in Jamaica...overruns are a serious thing, they usually results from one of two things...the first is a higher than normal approach speed on final, and the second is usually a very late touchdown point, either because of the high speed or by pilots trying to make soft landings.... this isn't confined to these of course...

very sad....

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2010-05-22 04:27:36 and read 38329 times.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 148):

If you're familiar with the geography of Mangalore, you'd know that it falls right on the Western Ghats. The Deccan Plateau ends very abruptly and you have an ocean. Its almost impossible to construct an airport anywhere else in this city. Its obvious with no cliff, many people could have been saved. But something like that can be said about every crash. "If the plane had four engines, many could have been saved".

My grandfather lived in Mangalore for many years and i have spent much time there as a kid and i know how the Western Ghats are. Couldnt the airport have been built nearer to the coast, like say near the port or something?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Vimanav
Posted 2010-05-22 04:49:40 and read 37543 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 141):
Ticker passenger list shows a high number of people from the minority communities.

The catchment area around IXE and also CCJ have large numbers of Christians and Muslims. Along with Hindus, all the 3 communities have large skilled and unskilled work force employed in the Middle East. This will explain why so many of the "minority communities" amongst the passengers. Also the fact that all passengers were Indians further underlines the fact that there is little other business/economic activity currently in those areas such as tourism or multinational companies.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 145):
CNN-IBN reporting 8 survivors.

Make that 7 - one 4-year old died after having been rescued alive.

brgds//Vimanav

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: babybus
Posted 2010-05-22 04:52:13 and read 37642 times.

I've got to take a 737-800 tomorrow. Just the thought, after seeing those horrific photos, gives me the colley-wobbles.

Not a good week for aviation. First an Airbus and now a Boeing 737-800.

Peace and love to all those involved.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2010-05-22 04:52:13 and read 37589 times.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 142):
Nowadays pilot error is responsible for over 70% of crashes....I don't think this will be any different...


Ok lets close the investigation, no need for the black box, send everybody home.
It is way too early for such a call, unless you know something we don't.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-22 04:57:47 and read 37498 times.

To converge on some facts:

1. Wx - was VFR, no rain, no wind at time of landing.
2. ILS in use.
3. F/O based (lived) in Mangalore, so he was returning home.
4. You need special training to be certified to land at Mangalore.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 05:03:50 and read 37169 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 150):

My grandfather lived in Mangalore for many years and i have spent much time there as a kid and i know how the Western Ghats are. Couldnt the airport have been built nearer to the coast, like say near the port or something?

a) Barely any suitable land available close to the coast. Whatever land IS available is used mainly for agriculture.
b) The empty land apart from agriculture and built up area is very, very marshy. Definitely not conducive for an airport..

Quoting comorin (Reply 154):
1. Wx - was VFR, no rain, no wind at time of landing.

So visibility is definitely not an issue, nor is a slippery runway? Until unless there was rain before hand (high possibility)

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-22 05:07:45 and read 37017 times.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 153):
Ok lets close the investigation, no need for the black box, send everybody home.
It is way too early for such a call, unless you know something we don't.

Looks like the 'what' of the situation is pretty clear - overshoot and failure to stop or GA. It's the 'why' we need the black boxes for - Why highly trained pilots returning to a home airport in good wx in a new-ish a/c crashed irrecoverably.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-22 05:11:38 and read 36864 times.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 155):
Quoting comorin (Reply 154):
1. Wx - was VFR, no rain, no wind at time of landing.

So visibility is definitely not an issue, nor is a slippery runway? Until unless there was rain before hand (high possibility)

Anshuk - I am just summarizing what I read from the Indian DGCA and MetOffice press releases, including a comment from a pilot in Mangalore who said conditions were 'dry' at that time.

[Edited 2010-05-22 05:13:05]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Airport
Posted 2010-05-22 05:13:46 and read 36770 times.

As of my post, there are now as many posts in this thread as there are feared dead...

I don't know why, maybe its just me, but looking up at the amount of replies above mine, that gives a haunting weight attached to that number - 158.

May those who perished rest in peace.

Anthony/Airport

[Edited 2010-05-22 05:14:14]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2010-05-22 05:24:14 and read 36367 times.

John Nance, a well known aviation crash expert here in the USA was on the USA's ABC Network GMA program and made some comments that included:
The similarity to AA in Jamaica last year, WN at Burbank a number of years ago and others of run off of aircraft from the end of runways, that may have touched down too late/far down for sufficent space to safely land.
That this was a fairly new aircraft, that India has a very good safety record although it has had a very large increase in air traffic in recent years that could creating a problem.
"Get-There-itis" as well as a lack of desire to do go-arounds by the pilots.
The siting of the airport, with it's sharp drop off at the end of the runway, are several airports in the USA with similar risky placement.

I would like to add that this seems to be similar to the AF crash in Toronto several years ago with the wet weather, poor visability, late touchdown, 'get-there-itis', maybe low fuel levels although far less of a drop-off the end of the runway. I wonder too if a too late go-around was in process, so the a/c wasn't fast enough to get airborne again but enough to add a lot of momenum to go off the end of the runway.

Does this airport have the arrestor bed systems at the end of it's runways (like at many including in my area TEB and JFK) ?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: JoKeR
Posted 2010-05-22 05:27:30 and read 36523 times.

The Captain was a 53 year-old ex JU pilot, a dual British-Serbian national.

JAT issued a statement saying that the late Captain Glusica was a very experienced flyer.

Condolences to all affected, very sad day.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Cricket
Posted 2010-05-22 05:29:24 and read 36150 times.

I'm assuming the investigation team should be there soon, I haven't heard anything about IXE operations being halted or stopped for certain types, any NOTAM?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ixemctdca
Posted 2010-05-22 06:14:15 and read 34489 times.

Looks like the Air India website was finally updated.

List of Crew

There's also a list of the passengers in a pdf on the Air India website.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2010-05-22 06:26:53 and read 33949 times.

Quoting Cassi (Reply 73):
It is the unfortunate placement of the runway that lead to so many casualties, it reminds me of the TAM Flight 3054 accident in Brazil.

Yes it is, I totally agree. Such a drop off at the end of any runway really makes me scratch my head. It is very obvious after looking at some of the pictures that the fire was a major contributor to the high number of deaths. The cliff hindered the ability to conduct a swift rescue operation, and obviously lead to a hell of a time fighting the fire. It always saddens me when crashes like this occur. TAM crash comes to mind too.

Quoting ap305 (Reply 135):
I cringed when i was shifting through the channels and saw a Hindi channel claiming that the plane lost its "balance" when it braked

It is possible that the plane lost its balance. On wet runway and high speed, rough steering, and perhaps a sudden attempt to turn hard at a fast speed could result in what the media is claiming. Which from what a survivor said, is very possible.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 160):
The Captain was a 53 year-old ex JU pilot, a dual British-Serbian national.

JAT issued a statement saying that the late Captain Glusica was a very experienced flyer.

Condolences to all affected, very sad day.

I have no doubts that this pilot was well qualified and a good flyer. AI is known to have some excellent pilots.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: c5load
Posted 2010-05-22 07:11:20 and read 32440 times.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 145):
The CNN-IBN article says the plane touched down about 2000 feet past the 'touchdown point'. Surely this would call for an go-around, right? Considering its such a dangerous runway?

But considering all of the circumstances, do you think it may have been too late to call for a GA when they realized they were past the point they wanted to touch down at? I know in the C-5 world, when we are on final, we have an altitude at which we become committed to land unless a freak emergency occurs.

It could also have been a case of "get-home-itis" and they were determined to get it down, and I hope I am wrong because that would just add to the number of accidents with that as a factor.  

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ju068
Posted 2010-05-22 07:18:42 and read 32037 times.

Quoting tarunkashyap14 (Reply 129):
Flight IX 812 was commanded by British national of Serbian origin Capt Zlatko Glusica and First officer S.S Ahluwalia...may their soul RIP.
Quoting JoKeR (Reply 159):
The Captain was a 53 year-old ex JU pilot, a dual British-Serbian national.

JAT issued a statement saying that the late Captain Glusica was a very experienced flyer.

Condolences to all affected, very sad day.

It was also reported that he flew on a DC-9 and then on 737-300 before leaving JU.

Sad day- RIP

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-05-22 07:31:47 and read 31556 times.

Heres The Latest on TV


Secretary of the pilots association has said the following on TV

1) Flight safety has been a problem since the Ai-IA merger began and several cost cutting measures were introduced

2) The only thing that was cost cut was safety

3) They (pilots) have been bringing this up with mgmt - but all appeals fell on deaf years

4) The internal pilots safety magazine was the first thing targeted when the cuts began

5) The pilots are treated like robots - and face consequences _ EVEN WHEN THEY APPLY RULES

6) Last year apparently when a pilot was harassed by some MP's and management for cracking the whip HE ended up getting the sack

7) The AI rep on the programme said nothing intelligible

8) This pilot also said this crash reminded him of a near miss in Rome in 2005

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 07:36:47 and read 31289 times.

Quoting c5load (Reply 169):
But considering all of the circumstances, do you think it may have been too late to call for a GA when they realized they were past the point they wanted to touch down at? I know in the C-5 world, when we are on final, we have an altitude at which we become committed to land unless a freak emergency occurs.

I don't know much about that.. I was hoping a 737 pilot could possibly enlighten us? What options are available to a pilot if he's overshot the touchdown point and he/she does not have enough runway to make a safe landing?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 07:38:32 and read 31188 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 173):


Is the person a pilot himself?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 07:48:54 and read 30813 times.

Quoting BAalltheway (Reply 177):
CNN saying 200,000 rupees for a deceased victim, and 50,000 for an injured victim. Seems like an insulting amount barely adequate for a proper burial. Do the families of the victims have any other recourse, or does the law work in such a way that victims or families of the deceased are precluded from seeking further compensation because it is owned by the government?

Can they still file suit for further compensation if it ends up that this was something the airline could have prevented?

The compensation announced is a goodwill gesture on the part of the government. The fact that it is government owned is irrelevant because the company is still a separate legal entity. It is an artificial legal person that can sue and be sued in its own name. Therefore the survivors and the estate of the deceased can file claims in a court of law. Besides, AI will surely come up with a compensation scheme themselves. It is a bit too early for them to do this, in my opinion.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 07:52:52 and read 30751 times.

Boeing has released a statement.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1219

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: 777way
Posted 2010-05-22 08:00:31 and read 30425 times.

Two people missed the flight, one man got the dates mixed up and the other a woman confused flight timings.

NDTV reports 16 members of one family killed in this http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/busin...tives-in-mangalore-crash-27113.php

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: GolfOscarDelta
Posted 2010-05-22 08:02:11 and read 30250 times.

Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=42bd5e46&opt=0

Quote:
Airport Authorities reported, that after the airplane touched down there was a loud bang, possibly a tyre burst. The airplane subsequently touched an ILS antenna past the runway end, the belly was torn open by the antenna causing 8 people to be thrown out of the airplane (the survivors), then the aircraft went down into the wooded ravine past the runway end.

Weather:

Quote:
The (non-aviation) weatherstation in Mangalore reported the weather as partly cloudy, no precipitation, humidity 80%, visbility 4000 meters, temperature at 28 degrees Centigrade, dew point at 25 degrees Centigrade and calm winds at the time of the accident and 3 hours prior to the accident. 3 hours after the accident the weather station reported light drizzle, humidity 90%, temperature 28 degrees C, dew point 26 degrees C, visibility of 2000 meters, winds calm.


[Edited 2010-05-22 08:32:11]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-22 08:02:25 and read 30327 times.

Praful Patel, Av Minister, said the plane touched down 2000 feet beyond the start of the runway. (Times of India).

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 08:08:40 and read 30103 times.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q3/060729a_nr.html

It says here that Air India has also ordered the Short Runway package 737's. Can anybody confirm if this particular frame was delivered with this package?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-22 08:16:47 and read 29799 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 102):
Airports like this should have EMAS, which would alleviate a lot of accidents like this. The cliff is not the problem.

The new runway does have a EMAS type system of a 750 ft long soft sand arresting bed on the end of the runways, and a strong wall after that. The aircraft had to be moving pretty fast to go over the arresting bed and thru the wall.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 131):
"Sadananda Gowda, who is the BJP MP from Mangalore, said the accident happened after a wing of the aircraft hit a hillock when the pilot attempted to take off after the plane overshot the runway while landing."


now would there be even enough move for the pilot to even attempt a take off after an overshot of the runway in question??

Sounds like a confused layman's description of a Go Around attempt. Using Google Earth, I don't see any 'hillock' higher than the runway elevation near the runway.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 160):
If every now and then, then why shouldn't you put in the ILS?
ILS are meant for bad weathers, low visibility etc.

Costs and maintenance issues.

There was an ILS on this runway and was apparently in use when this aircraft landed.

Remember that A.Net's favorite airport - Julianna in St Martin - does not have an ILS

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 178):
The compensation announced is a goodwill gesture on the part of the government. The fact that it is government owned is irrelevant because the company is still a separate legal entity. It is an artificial legal person that can sue and be sued in its own name. Therefore the survivors and the estate of the deceased can file claims in a court of law. Besides, AI will surely come up with a compensation scheme themselves. It is a bit too early for them to do this, in my opinion.

I would think this flight falls under Warsaw Convention compensation limits.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Stealthz
Posted 2010-05-22 08:25:49 and read 29509 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 173):
Heres The Latest on TV

Having seen several Australian News broadcasts this evening I have seen nothing that resembles the behaviour that you have mentioned in this thread, such as media virtually breaking into homes and statements from the pilots associationetc.

Perhaps if you are reporting on Indian TV you should perhaps mention that instead of maligning, by implication, the Australian media**

Regards

** they don't need the help!!

[Edited 2010-05-22 08:37:30]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 08:35:44 and read 29093 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 187):
I would think this flight falls under Warsaw Convention compensation limits.

India is signatory to the Montreal Convention, not sure about the UAE though.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 08:37:34 and read 29285 times.

Quoting pilotaydin (Reply 189):

Pilot Aydin! I was hoping you would show on this forum  
If you can tell us, what options are available to a pilot of a 737 when he/she has overshot the touchdown point on a runway where overshooting is dangerous?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ckfred
Posted 2010-05-22 08:52:06 and read 28973 times.

Here's a thought. A friend of mine is a 737-800 captain, having flown 757/767 more than 10 years before switching. One thing about the 737-800 is that it lands faster than the 757. This is to reduce the possibility of a tail strike.

The reports I've seen so far are that the plane overshot the runway. One report said that witnesses thought the plane touched down about 2000 feet beyond the normal touch-down point.

The AA 737-800 that ran off the runway at KIN apparently floated a bit before touching down, too far to stop before the end of the runway.

Is it possible that Boeing and the FAA may decide to lower the landing speed of the 737-800 (and possibly other models of the 737NG series), to reduce the risk of overshooting a runway?

Granted, the data in the "black boxes" havent' been reviewed, but there seems to be some common elements to the crash today and the incident at KIN.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: B747forever
Posted 2010-05-22 08:58:12 and read 28499 times.

Quoting ixemctdca (Reply 165):
List of Crew

There's also a list of the passengers in a pdf on the Air India website

Didnt know that airlines publish these lists.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2010-05-22 09:00:22 and read 28471 times.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19791008-0

This type of issue seems to go back a long way.

IMO Airlines and Airport operators need to give a lot more thought to the possibility of an over run.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-22 09:04:05 and read 28340 times.

To all,

We expect that such a tragic event to be discussed on a polite and civilized manner. This is the last place where we may expect disrespectful comments towards other users opinion.
If you want to discuss, please point out what you believe is wrong or not so correct, keep in mind to to debate the topic and not fellow members.


From our Forum rules:

1.Posting in the Discussion Forums
a) Please respect the opinions of others and choose your words wisely. Each user has their own point of view, and these views must be respected.
b) Please word all criticism, whether of another user's opinion, a photograph, crew member, a political topic, etc., in a constructive manner. Criticism which serves no purpose other than to incite or insult other members will be deleted and your account possibly suspended.
c) if a topic becomes a debate, you may debate the subject itself but not the credibility or intellect of other members.

Regards,
Felipe
Airliners.net - Forum Moderator



[Edited 2010-05-22 09:13:09]

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-22 09:12:39 and read 27993 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 179):
Didnt know that airlines publish these lists.

Airlines usually publish a passenger list, but the local version of a coroner will publish the final list of deceased victims.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-22 09:14:22 and read 27973 times.

A few of the survivors said they just jumped out of the aircraft; does this mean that the G forces were not excessive? In that case, were most of the casualties due to the ensuing fire?

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2010-05-22 09:15:20 and read 28065 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 180):
Is it possible that Boeing and the FAA may decide to lower the landing speed of the 737-800 (and possibly other models of the 737NG series), to reduce the risk of overshooting a runway?

Why not just remind pilots to freaking GO AROUND when they overshoot the runway. If you are floating and know it, throttle up and go around.

I've been on a plane where this happened, a 757 landing into LGA. Pilot simply informed us that we touched down too far down the runway, so rather than crash the plane into the river, he decided to try it again.

Again, we don't know the details of what caused the crash, but if it does turn out to be as simple as landing long, it's a shame and all the talk about how everyone is sure how great the pilot is would be pointless (which always makes me cringe, since most accidents are pilot error but after every accident you get people telling us quickly how great all pilots are). Pilots are people and they screw up like everyone else.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-05-22 09:17:29 and read 28003 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 153):
1. Wx - was VFR, no rain, no wind at time of landing.
2. ILS in use.
3. F/O based (lived) in Mangalore, so he was returning home.
4. You need special training to be certified to land at Mangalore.

OK, this does not contradict what I've been hearing... ILS24 approach was conducted is suspected from the start. No wind makes it easier to do the analysis, no rain, well, that enables us to assume that it was dry or wet only (no standing water).

Why do I reiterate the above... well, read on.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 145):
The CNN-IBN article says the plane touched down about 2000 feet past the 'touchdown point'. Surely this would call for an go-around, right? Considering its such a dangerous runway?

Runway 06/24 is 2450m long... Airplanes touch down at 300m from the threshold... is due to the 50 ft over the threshold for "cushion" safety... the glideslope and the PAPI visual slope guidance is set so that you touchdown around the 300m mark.

2450m less 300m is 2150m, that is "more than enough" on dry conditions up to the highest landing weights.
2450m less 600m is 1850m, that is "more than enough" on dry conditions up to the highest landing weights.
Assuming the temperature was 25C, and landing weight of 60 tons, zero runway slope...
For flaps 30... (distances include air distance from 50ft above threshold, ie: 305m air distance from threshold to touchdown)
Max Manual Brakes = 920m (955m without reversers), and 65m for every 10kts where the approach speed is above Vref30.
max Autobrakes = 1145m and 100m per 10kt above Vref30 (no adjustment for no reversers)
Autobrakes 3 = 1610m and 165m per 10kt above Vref30 (no adjustment for no reversers)
Autobrakes 2 = 2065m and 170m per 10kt above Vref30 (no adjustment for no reversers)
Autobrakes 1 = 2270m and 160m per 10kt above Vref30 (no adjustment for no reversers)

Autobrakes can be disengaged at any time by manual braking. Note that max manual braking gives a better result... autobrakes help in that it gives no delay in brake application whereas there are delays in manual braking due to pilot workload limitations. Generally for a 2500m runway, one would put it on Autobrake 2... autobrake 3 is a bit too harsh (use when below 1850m runways)...

If the runway is "not so good", ie, it has "Good Braking action", for the same as the above landing assumptions, the distances would be:
Max Manual = 1250m and 95m per 10kts, and 145m for no reverse.
Max Auto = 1370m and 100m and 160m
Autobrakes 3 = 1615m, 165m and 15m
Autobrakes 2 = 2065m, 170m and 65m.

If the aircraft touched down at 610m from the threshold at the correct speed, then just add another 305m to the numbers above and see what goes beyond 2450m.

The numbers for flap 40 (which I've seen on the videos in youtube for Mangalore, is the flap settings used), are even shorter.

So the conclusion is, landing 2000ft from the threshold on a 2450m runway when everything else is normal (especially approach speed), is cause for no alarm... no need to go-around... unless damn wet and slippery.

For dispatch purposes, a 2450m runway on dry and wet is only limited by the maximum landing weight...
So, if nothing else is abnormal... what can cause the overrun? The answer points only to the human factor... and the FDR data will reveal whether or not the approach was done at the correct speed, or whether an unstable approach (in particular high-and-fast) happened.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 81):
Report Says :- Pilot Error. Pilot Missed the runway by 1950 feet, due to which it missed the touchdown point.
Low Visibility Seen.
Does AIX Have CAT-3 capable aircraft? Is Mangalore Runway CAT-2/3?

No, it has CAT I ILS only. Missing the touchdown point by 600m is not an ILS Cat I problem... because you don't autoland on it... so it's hands on yoke and throttles (or stick in the case of the Airbus FBWs).

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 160):
Landing on this short runway at this airport was considered difficult.And if you must know, landing was in the old runway 28.

So if the conditions were clear, i would only blame for poor braking action, and/or pilot error.
Example Indian Airlines Flight 557 in 1981, it was a Hawker Siddeley HS 748, and it is a smaller aircraft than 737, but still when it landed in the runway, it wasn't sufficient!!
If a HS748 could not stop, how do you expect 737-800 to stop?
I'm talking about wet conditions ofcourse.

OK... the facts:
OLD RUNWAY 09/27... 1645m x 45m...
NEW RUNWAY 06/24... 2450m x 46m...

Declared distances for the runway:
09: TORA 1625, TODA 1625, ASDA 1625, LDA 1625
27: TORA 1625, TODA 1625, ASDA 1625, LDA 1625
06: TORA 2450, TODA 2450, ASDA 2450, LDA 2330 (RW06 displaced threshold 120m) RESA 90x90m
06: TORA 2450, TODA 2450, ASDA 2450, LDA 2450 RESA 180x90m
TORA = Take Off Runway Available (the actual length of pavement for take off)
TODA = Take Off Distance Available (The distance available for take off up to 50ft in the event of engine failure at V1)
ASDA = Accelerate Stop Distance Available (the distance available to abort the take off at V1 due to engine failure and stop without entering the headlines)
LDA = Landing Distance available (the distance available from 50ft above threshold to the end of the runway)
RESA = Runway End Safety Area.

The above maybe junk numbers... but it means the aircraft failed to stop beyond LDA RESA (do your own additions).
There is no runway 27... again, go and read the official Indian aeronautical information publication on the airport if you think I'm lying on the above...

Now, an HS748 is different from a 737-800.
1. It has no lift dumpers to kill lift on landing.
2. It has no reverse thrust, the aircraft props goes to ground fine pitch to generate very little forward thrust, hence provides aerodynamic braking at high speeds.
3. It has no autobrakes... there is a delay between touchdown to wheelbrake application when on manual braking.
4. A soft touchdown and too gentle derotation can cause the props not to enter ground fine... hence generating idle forward flight thrust... not good for props.
5. The antiskid system of those old planes (if fitted) are not as reliable as modern ones.
6. Wet runway (no standing water) landing is roughly 115% of dry runway landing... With standing water or other surface contamination, depending on the situation, it can go to >200% dry.
7. Ever seen a 747 land shorter than an HS748? I have...

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 160):
If every now and then, then why shouldn't you put in the ILS?
ILS are meant for bad weathers, low visibility etc.

Runway 24 in Mangalore HAS the ILS. Go and check India's official Aeronautical Information Publication!
I've posted ths fact in reply 117... the least you can do is read it!

Quoting Cricket (Reply 161):
I'm assuming the investigation team should be there soon, I haven't heard anything about IXE operations being halted or stopped for certain types, any NOTAM?

The only NOTAMs I saw issued on 22nd that was valid by the time I read it was posted in reply 117. The Localizer antennae is damaged, I assume from being hit by the aircraft.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 174):
I was hoping a 737 pilot could possibly enlighten us? What options are available to a pilot if he's overshot the touchdown point and he/she does not have enough runway to make a safe landing?

That is based on velocity and distance remaining. There are no tables for that, one has to rely on one's knowledge and experience if one wants to conduct a late aborted landing. The general rule is, you can go-around anytime as long as reversers have not been deployed. One checks brakes are working (feel for deceleration) and the spoilers deployed before the reversers... but then, deploying the reversers would, on the 738 above a certain speed (forgot which), deploy the spoilers.

The general standard procedure across most jets in production today is that on a go-around, you go to full thrust (TOGA thrust), pull the nose to a go-around attitude (or rotate if on ground), retract flaps to go-around flaps (flaps 30/40 for landing, flaps 15 for 2 engine go-around on all 737s), and retract gear when positive climb is attained.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 159):
The Captain was a 53 year-old ex JU pilot, a dual British-Serbian national.

JAT issued a statement saying that the late Captain Glusica was a very experienced flyer.

Condolences to all affected, very sad day.

I hope this was not the same guy who did that "AIX 738 unauthorized autoland on CAT I ILS which ended up as a lawnmower excercise" a few years ago in I think it was Bangalore... where the Captain (also ex JAT), continued the use of the auto-approach below the Cat I minimum specified for approach. If so... well, the (mis)adventures caught up in the end...
Can someone find out if this was the same guy? (I personally hope that it isn't!).

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 167):
I have no doubts that this pilot was well qualified and a good flyer. AI is known to have some excellent pilots.

And some jokers... see the above on the "lawnmower"... every airline has a joker hiding in its pilot pool... I just hope the Captain isn't the same Joker that caused the lawnmower exercise.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 173):
It says here that Air India has also ordered the Short Runway package 737's. Can anybody confirm if this particular frame was delivered with this package?
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 174):
The new runway does have a EMAS type system of a 750 ft long soft sand arresting bed on the end of the runways, and a strong wall after that. The aircraft had to be moving pretty fast to go over the arresting bed and thru the wall.

If it does have the EMAS, it's gotta be damn fast for this accident to occur!

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-22 09:23:57 and read 27726 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 183):
A few of the survivors said they just jumped out of the aircraft; does this mean that the G forces were not excessive? In that case, were most of the casualties due to the ensuing fire?

The way I read the statements - the plane had come to a stop, and they jumped from the doorway or breaks in the fuselage to the ground.

It is probable that many of the deaths were due to fire effects - usually smoke before actual fire in many crashes. Whether or not the people were conscious at the time of the fire cannot be known at this time. There were certainly high G forces because the fuselage fractured. That may have rendered many people unconscious. But others may have remained awake.

When a plane goes off the runway into conditions like this - the amount of time to escape is very short. That is what made the AF A340 at YYZ so amazing - that everyone got off the plane.

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2010-05-22 09:38:26 and read 27138 times.

Quoting NEMA (Reply 138):
Listening to a BBC news report this morning, this is apparently one of those airports where pilots have to have special training in advance of flying there, a bit like Funchal (FNC) in Maderia.

And the infamous TGU....

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: aviationbuff
Posted 2010-05-22 09:51:22 and read 26776 times.

Environment group blames air crash on faulty runway construction

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/C...nstruction/articleshow/5963047.cms

Topic: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2010-05-22 09:52:53 and read 26800 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 178):

Is it possible that Boeing and the FAA may decide to lower the landing speed of the 737-800 (and possibly other models of the 737NG series), to reduce the risk of overshooting a runway?

There already is an option on the 737-800 that allows for shorter runway operations. It includes larger spoiler deflection and a tailskid. It is a customer option on any new 737-800s.

Regardless of the capabilities of the plane, calculations can be made for what constitutes a safe landing. It is up to the pilot and dispatch to determine if the runway is suitable.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: calpilot
Posted 2010-05-22 10:55:26 and read 24813 times.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 165):
don't know much about that.. I was hoping a 737 pilot could possibly enlighten us? What options are available to a pilot if he's overshot the touchdown point and he/she does not have enough runway to make a safe landing?

Yes, Go Around!

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Pihero
Posted 2010-05-22 10:56:26 and read 24827 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 184):
Assuming the temperature was 25C, and landing weight of 60 tons, zero runway slope...

Up again to yopur usual standards of high quality posting, I see !
One question, though : I seem to have heard AI to have ordered the 79 T high gross-weight version for their 738s.
As I do not have a 737-800 FCOM or hold any performance for the type, what would be your landing distance figures for 70 tons LW ?.
As I worked in that area for some eleven years, I know that Indian migrant workers in the Gulf would come home on vacation every other year with oodles of luggage full of gifts for their families. So I pose the aircraft departing BXB ay MTOW... Short of an FCOM, I'd estimate the burnoff at some 11.5 tons, bringing the - again estimated - LW to some 67 to 68 tons.

Thanks.
Edit : Correction. Just found out that the MLW for the airline is 66.4 tons.
So, they were LW-limited at DXB, were they not ?

[Edited 2010-05-22 11:01:03]

[Edited 2010-05-22 11:05:14]

[Edited 2010-05-22 11:07:10]

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: USXguy
Posted 2010-05-22 11:23:29 and read 24032 times.

Quoting flybynight (Reply 103):
I fly with Alaska most of the time, and well, 737's is my choice!

And Alaska Airlines has more navigational equipment and aids than most military planes!

RNP, ADS-B, 3 GPS systems, and Heads Up Displays in most of Alaska's 737-400 fleet are required due to the horrid weather and mountainous conditions seen here in Alaska and especially in Southeast.

Approaching Rwy 26 here in JNU, make a turn a bit too quick or let the wind push you, and it will kill everyone as it comes down the Gastineau... there's no room for error in the canal on that particular approach.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-22 11:23:52 and read 24130 times.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 188):
There already is an option on the 737-800 that allows for shorter runway operations. It includes larger spoiler deflection and a tailskid. It is a customer option on any new 737-800s.

Correct, that is the Boeing 737-800SFP used by GOL (G3) to perform operation on the (very) short runway of SDU, the Rio de Janeiro domestic airport.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-05-22 11:37:16 and read 23783 times.

Quoting Stealthz (Reply 174):
Perhaps if you are reporting on Indian TV you should perhaps mention that instead of maligning, by implication, the Australian media**

Regards

** they don't need the help!!

Pitfalls of dual citizenship!!!!!

Quoting comorin (Reply 182):
A few of the survivors said they just jumped out of the aircraft; does this mean that the G forces were not excessive? In that case, were most of the casualties due to the ensuing fire?

From my limited understanding of malyalam (this particular survivor was a malyalee) he said "the window broke and we escaped" Now from the 737s ive been in windows seem too small for anything except a baby.... i suspect it was the emergency exits overwing that "broke" . Also eyewitnesses on the ground were quoted as saying that
1) they jumped out from the middle exits (presumably the overwing)
2) all of them jumped WHILE the plane was sliding down the gorge


Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 179):
IMO Airlines and Airport operators need to give a lot more thought to the possibility of an over run.

Yes - its surprising they don't.... didn't the AF A-340 crash in Canada run into a ditch designed to prevent further overshoot? maybe designing a ditch before the gorge may have been an idea

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 166):
Is the person a pilot himself?

Yes he was making a big deal about having to pilot a flight within the hour ...... that said he came off well only because the anchor didnt ask him any tough questions - Like for example when he said " the first cost cutting measure was that they cancelled the flight safety magazine - but they didn't cancel swagat or namaskar the in-flight mags since somebody in higher management was getting a cut" The so called "aviation expert" correspondant whose enthused us with his gallivanting on gripens, sukhois, migs, F-16 , F-18 in the past didnt have the good sense to ask him

"excuse me sir but why didn't you use an alternate method like e-mailing a pilots a weekly safety bulletin?"


Its a pity to see pilots using this for their own power games within AI. The fact is an aircraft carrier like the Nimitz has every conceivable landing aid known to man and crashes still happen on those. I reject this notion of pilot error - especially when its so liberally applied - you have to make split second judgement calls and sometimes very very rarely they go wrong. People really need to accept that sometimes things can go wrong and will go wrong.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-22 12:00:12 and read 23123 times.

Ironic that while buses in India frequently fall into ravines and gullies with loss of life, this is the first time it has happened with an airliner.

I am glad the Malayali guy got out alive, even though he unbuckled his seat belt before the aircraft came to a complete stop.

I once experienced 3 GAs on a 9W flight into BLR during the monsoon; I can see why the phrase 'lashed' is always used by the Indian press when referring to rain...Good job, Capt Krishnamurthi!


Mandala, thanks again for your excellent post, clears up a lot of questions. I also imagine that IXE plus monsoon must remind you of places in Indonesia!

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2010-05-22 12:02:31 and read 23161 times.

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 170):
Airport Authorities reported, that after the airplane touched down there was a loud bang, possibly a tyre burst. The airplane subsequently touched an ILS antenna past the runway end, the belly was torn open by the antenna causing 8 people to be thrown out of the airplane (the survivors), then the aircraft went down into the wooded ravine past the runway end.

Well, I've been suspecting that there was more to this story than a simple overrun. Experienced pilots used to flying into this airport, good weather conditions (why does it always seem that in every crash, the initial reports say the weather was "poor, with low visibility" and this almost always turns out to be 100% wrong?). Long runway, at least more than long enough for a 737. I just have a hard time believing an experienced pilot is going to crash a plane off a cliff in that situation. There had to be some other factor.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 173):
The new runway does have a EMAS type system of a 750 ft long soft sand arresting bed on the end of the runways, and a strong wall after that. The aircraft had to be moving pretty fast to go over the arresting bed and thru the wall.

I knew about the wall, but the one report I saw that mentioned any kind of arresting bed said it was 90 feet long. Is it really 750 feet?

That's the same as JFK, and I saw the tests they did with that - brought a large plane going something like 40 knots to a dead stop in the span of about 200 feet.

I have a feeling something else went wrong here beyond just touching down too far down the runway. There's no way they'd be going fast enough with 5,000 feet of runway left to plow right through a 750 foot arrestor bed and a perimeter wall.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-22 12:21:21 and read 22729 times.

I Googled and found several articles on the runway construction. All said the runway was being built with the long overrun sand pits. The length varied but was listed several times as 750 feet or 250M.

Google Earth shows something on each of the runway ends which is near 750 feet in length and is not hard surface.

Now these are supposed to be soft sand pits, not an trademark/ patent protected EMAS system. They should significantly slow an overrun aircraft, but not as well as a EMAS system.

[Edited 2010-05-22 12:23:43]

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2010-05-22 12:27:10 and read 22762 times.

Quoting 777way (Reply 169):
Two people missed the flight, one man got the dates mixed up and the other a woman confused flight timings.

That's always really freaky. I have a friend who was scheduled to go to Paris for a prize he won back in1996. He was scheduled to fly TW800. Two weeks before the trip, they randomly decided to push the day of the trip back by just one day...

This is terrible news.   Godspeed to all who perished, and condolences to all who survive them. Speedy and complete healing to the lucky survivors.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: CALPSAFltSkeds
Posted 2010-05-22 13:47:46 and read 20688 times.

This is an awful accident that should not have happened. Rest in Peace for everyone killed and peace to families who've lost loved ones.

We'll probably get more information later, including eyewitnesses, but it doesn't seem to add up at this point.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 196):
I Googled and found several articles on the runway construction. All said the runway was being built with the long overrun sand pits. The length varied but was listed several times as 750 feet or 250M.

Google Earth shows something on each of the runway ends which is near 750 feet in length and is not hard surface.

Now these are supposed to be soft sand pits, not an trademark/ patent protected EMAS system. They should significantly slow an overrun aircraft, but not as well as a EMAS system.

I also measured the sand at the end of RX 6/24 at 750 feet on either end.

Quoting comorin (Reply 171):
Praful Patel, Av Minister, said the plane touched down 2000 feet beyond the start of the runway. (Times of India).

Looking at Google Earth, the runway has most of it's black tire residue about 1,500 feet from the threshold. The extra 500 feet from that point still has tire residue and should not be a problem if everything else is OK. This aircraft went past the end, through a 750 foot sand bed, through a wall and down a slope.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Anshuk
Posted 2010-05-22 14:19:09 and read 19895 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 193):

Yes he was making a big deal about having to pilot a flight within the hour ...... that said he came off well only because the anchor didnt ask him any tough questions - Like for example when he said " the first cost cutting measure was that they cancelled the flight safety magazine - but they didn't cancel swagat or namaskar the in-flight mags since somebody in higher management was getting a cut" The so called "aviation expert" correspondant whose enthused us with his gallivanting on gripens, sukhois, migs, F-16 , F-18 in the past didnt have the good sense to ask him

What kind of a cut were they getting? :-| in flight mags have ads, ads bring revenue. Simple.
A safety magazine for crew can easily be circulated over company email, as you pointed out.


The Civil Aviation minister said, the visibility was good, the conditions were good, the plane was brand new, the pilots were experienced, they knew the airport and runway very well and the runway was long enough and this accident should not have happened keeping all of that mind.. Does seem like there's more to it!

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-05-22 14:21:41 and read 19933 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 78):
Overrun almost any runway at high enough speed and you will end up with lots of casualties.

Not if the overrun area is flat and clear of obstacles. There have been many overruns without even any significant injuries. All depends on the terrain in the overrun area. The Aero Republica Embraer 190 overrun at Santa Marta, Colombia (SMR) in July 2007 would have been much worse if it had happened at Mangalore.



Ironically, the same day as the Aero Republica overrun, a TAM A320 overran a wet runway at CGH in Sao Paulo, plunged down an embankment onto a major city street, hit a concrete building and exploded, killing all 187 aboard and 12 on the ground. CGH is another airport with very unfriendly overrun areas.




An AC (then still TCA) DC-8-54F combi departing LHR for YUL in November 1963 overran runway 09R (then numbered 10R) by about half a mile after a high speed (beyond V1) aborted takeoff when the captain thought (apparently incorrectly) that the aircraft wasn't rotating normally. Although there was significant damage to the forward fuselage and the engines were torn off, there were only a few minor injuries among the 97 passengers and crew. The almost new aircraft was repaired by a Douglas and TCA team in a LHR hangar and was back in service a few months later. Had the same thing happened at Mangalore it would have been a major disaster. Unfortunately that DC-8 crashed at YOW in 1967 on a training flight, killing the crew.

The DC-8 before it was removed from the cabbage field.

TJM.jpg" width="400" height="304" border="0"/>TJM.jpg" width="400" height="269" border="0"/>TJM.jpg" width="234" height="320" border="0"/>

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2010-05-22 14:32:40 and read 19596 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 200):
There have been many overruns without even any significant injuries.

Those overruns all happened at relatively low speeds. Notice that I said in my quote "at high enough speed". We are now talking about how this plane apparently traveled down 5,000 feet (or so) of runway and still had enough speed to plow through 750 feet of sand and a perimeter wall (which I don't know, but others have implied was a pretty strong wall). This does not appear - and never appeared, to me - to have been a low speed overrun. So whether the cliff was there or not is immaterial. If not the cliff, it would have been ripped apart by trees. Or light stands. Or whatever.

Several people have brought up the TAM overrun, which I only think is similar in that it was another airliner that ran off the runway basically at takeoff speed. Otherwise I don't think the two accidents are very similar, but the point is if you run off the runway with that kid of speed, yes, you will hit something. Even if you hit water, if you hit it at high enough speed, almost everybody is going to die. That's just an unfortunate fact. Water no longer has the properties of a liquid when it's hit at 180 knots.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-05-22 15:01:36 and read 19046 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 201):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 200):
There have been many overruns without even any significant injuries.

Those overruns all happened at relatively low speeds.

Did you miss the AC DC-8 overrun? That was a very high speed overrun, well above the normal speed where the decision would be made to abort or continue the takeoff. Low speed overruns don't come to a stop half a mile beyond the end of the runway. The fact that the terrain beyond the runway was flat and had no major obstacles was what prevented that from becoming a disaster.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2010-05-22 15:23:15 and read 18498 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 202):
Did you miss the AC DC-8 overrun? That was a very high speed overrun

Your description says takeoff was aborted over v1. That says nothing about the overrun speed.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 202):
The fact that the terrain beyond the runway was flat and had no major obstacles was what prevented that from becoming a disaster.

I'm just not sure what your point is. That airports should all be built on flat land with no obstacles within what, 2 miles? And no approach lights? Like I said, sure, if the entire world was flat with no obstacles, then this stuff wouldn't happen. (I guess you missed that part of my post too.)

Ok, so let's close 99% of the world's airports then.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Larshjort
Posted 2010-05-22 15:24:34 and read 18458 times.

Quoting Anshuk (Reply 144):
The CNN-IBN article says the plane touched down about 2000 feet past the 'touchdown point'. Surely this would call for an go-around, right? Considering its such a dangerous runway?

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 198):
Quoting comorin (Reply 171):
Praful Patel, Av Minister, said the plane touched down 2000 feet beyond the start of the runway. (Times of India).

Looking at Google Earth, the runway has most of it's black tire residue about 1,500 feet from the threshold. The extra 500 feet from that point still has tire residue and should not be a problem if everything else is OK. This aircraft went past the end, through a 750 foot sand bed, through a wall and down a slope.

Was it 2000 feet from the start of the runway, or 2000 feet from the normal touchdown zone as in 3500 feet from the start of the runway?

/Lars

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-05-22 15:29:08 and read 18430 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 203):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 202):
Did you miss the AC DC-8 overrun? That was a very high speed overrun

Your description says takeoff was aborted over v1. That says nothing about the overrun speed.

To overrun a long runway by half a mile requires a high speed going off the end.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 203):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 202):
The fact that the terrain beyond the runway was flat and had no major obstacles was what prevented that from becoming a disaster.

I'm just not sure what your point is.

My point was simply that a long and flat overrun area is often the primary factor in converting what would otherwise be a major disaster into a relatively minor event without fatalities. Another example was the BA 777 undershoot landing accident at LHR a couple of years ago which would have been much more serious at many other airports.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: comorin
Posted 2010-05-22 16:49:19 and read 17071 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 184):
hope this was not the same guy who did that "AIX 738 unauthorized autoland on CAT I ILS which ended up as a lawnmower excercise" a few years ago in I think it was Bangalore... where the Captain (also ex JAT), continued the use of the auto-approach below the Cat I minimum specified for approach. If so... well, the (mis)adventures caught up in the end...
Can someone find out if this was the same guy? (I personally hope that it isn't!).

I researched but could only come up with the tail- VT-AXC and the Airport- Cochin.

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: dldtw1962
Posted 2010-05-22 18:12:07 and read 15794 times.

What ever the cause of this crash. May God be with all those who have lost love ones. And may those loved ones
be in peace.

Chuck

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: mandala499
Posted 2010-05-22 19:01:25 and read 15231 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 190):
As I do not have a 737-800 FCOM or hold any performance for the type, what would be your landing distance figures for 70 tons LW ?.

Well, for dispatch purposes, 2450m at 25C, SL... dry... you can go up to beyond MTOW for the landing weight and still stop within the runway (probably with the brakes steaming! and a bloody big post landing structural check afterwards)   
Different when wet though...   

Quoting comorin (Reply 194):
I also imagine that IXE plus monsoon must remind you of places in Indonesia!

IXE is 2450m... we have 738s and 320s flying at near the MLW on 2200m runways... with worse slopes/gradients along it... Then we got places where it's almost a one way in one way out... Our current domestic standard for narrowbody jet ops is now 2500m (previously 2200m, the increase is to increase safety margins). Our main problem here is the poor braking action by the type of asphalt surface we have... too smooth for our liking, and bumpy at the same time.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 195):
Experienced pilots used to flying into this airport, good weather conditions (why does it always seem that in every crash, the initial reports say the weather was "poor, with low visibility" and this almost always turns out to be 100% wrong?). I just have a hard time believing an experienced pilot is going to crash a plane off a cliff in that situation. There had to be some other factor.

There are various factors that can make one do such a mistake, no matter one's experience. The key is, recognizing and realizing that it's going to turn ugly and take the appropriate action.

I have concerns in that I'm hearing India's monthly flight hour limit is 125hrs instead of the more usual 110hrs. When you have this coupled with red-eye ops, you may be exposing yourself to unnecessary risks. Even with normal flight hour limits, lack of sleep or circadian upsets can severely hamper one's performance, not just in physical aspects but mental and emotional aspects also. Whilst many had blamed "ego and get-there-itis" as the cause of the GA200 accidents, basic sleep deprivation even in small amounts can render an experienced pilot losing the bigger picture, and become saturated even with the most benign tasks (fixation is a big danger here), such as recognizing that one's approach is unstable (eg: high and fast, not in the slot, etc)... which is a mental process, whilst their physical ability doesn't degrade, which in the past, have led to pilots underestimating the effect of fatigue they're experiencing.

Whilst fatigue issues on long-haul ops are being recognized, short-haul ops crew often underestimate the risks for fatigue on them. For the management, it's a cost vs safety issue.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 200):
Several people have brought up the TAM overrun, which I only think is similar in that it was another airliner that ran off the runway basically at takeoff speed. Otherwise I don't think the two accidents are very similar, but the point is if you run off the runway with that kid of speed, yes, you will hit something. Even if you hit water, if you hit it at high enough speed, almost everybody is going to die. That's just an unfortunate fact. Water no longer has the properties of a liquid when it's hit at 180 knots.

GA200... 190 knots on touchdown, on a dry runway... there's no cliff at the end, still people died, thanks to a ditch with a road in the middle.

Quoting comorin (Reply 206):
I researched but could only come up with the tail- VT-AXC and the Airport- Cochin.

Could be that one... Cochin it could be.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: nycank
Posted 2010-05-22 20:08:12 and read 14621 times.

Here is what NYT article says about safety, training and inspections in Indian Aviation -

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/wo...tml?ref=global-home&pagewanted=all

Topic: RE: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India. 166 Aboard
Username: SA7700
Posted 2010-05-22 21:57:07 and read 14086 times.

This thread will locked for further contributions. Any posts added after this final post, will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

The continuation thread can be found here: Air India Express: Crash In Mangalore, India #2


Rgds

SA7700


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