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Topic: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: eastern023
Posted 2010-05-07 13:03:11 and read 21137 times.

The UA/CO merger would (as approval is pending but likely) give United new synergies in the region? Do we see a potential head to head with AA and/or DL? What will the future bring to IAH? MIA? Let's discuss.....

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: chepos
Posted 2010-05-07 13:11:39 and read 21115 times.

AA is not going to let UA re-build it's presence in MIA. AA would put up a massive fight which would result in a bloodbath. The new UAL I'm pretty sure will concentrate on IAH (which is no MIA) to continue funneling traffic to South and Central America. Newark would also help to funnel traffic to the region (mostly to the markets they currently serve).
Let's just wait and see.

Regards,

Chepos

[Edited 2010-05-07 13:18:39]

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: STT757
Posted 2010-05-07 13:16:37 and read 21062 times.

As part of the announcement of the CO/UA merger IAH was identified as the combined carrier's "largest hub", meaning now and going forward. A lot of assets are going to be redeployed during the merger, and with the many new aircraft on order. IAH will grow, and Latin America will be the core market.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: FlyHossD
Posted 2010-05-07 13:23:44 and read 20978 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
As part of the announcement of the CO/UA merger IAH was identified as the combined carrier's "largest hub", meaning now and going forward. A lot of assets are going to be redeployed during the merger, and with the many new aircraft on order. IAH will grow, and Latin America will be the core market.

Though I loathe the much over-used expression, "synergies," I am wondering if the numerous destinations that Continental already serves in Latin America will allow for additional non-stop flights from UAL hubs, especially LAX (Denver also has a huge Latino population).

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: STT757
Posted 2010-05-07 13:25:04 and read 20954 times.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 3):
Though I loathe the much over-used expression, "synergies," I am wondering if the numerous destinations that Continental already serves in Latin America will allow for additional non-stop flights from UAL hubs, especially LAX (Denver also has a huge Latino population).

LAX to Central America and Chicago to Mexico.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2010-05-07 13:27:11 and read 20935 times.

Quoting chepos (Reply 1):
concentrate on IAH (which is no MIA)

No, but for some cities it works even better.

PTY, BZE etc

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2010-05-07 13:29:51 and read 20927 times.

Isn't IAH already second to Latin America now? Will IAH pass Miami in traffic numbers? No. Will it be a strong #2 as UA/COs largest hub, yes.

for cities served it is already #1 to Central America (including Mexico). It should continue to grow in South America, and possibly the Carib. If the politcal aviation rules would change, for example, IAH-MAR is one CO stated would start very quickly.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: eastern023
Posted 2010-05-07 13:33:46 and read 20894 times.

Quoting chepos (Reply 1):
AA is not going to let UA re-build it's presence in MIA. AA would put up a massive fight which would result in a bloodbath.

I actually was not thinking that UA will try MIA again but to beef up IAH, therefore fight MIA (and DFW for that matter) as a hub. (I know MIA always be what it is because of location, language, etc)

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
As part of the announcement of the CO/UA merger IAH was identified as the combined carrier's "largest hub", meaning now and going forward.

Defenetely this merger could make Latin America a battleground on AA's backyard.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2010-05-07 13:44:06 and read 20797 times.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 7):
As part of the announcement of the CO/UA merger IAH was identified as the combined carrier's "largest hub", meaning now and going forward.
Quoting eastern023 (Reply 7):
Defenetely this merger could make Latin America a battleground on AA's backyard.

IAH will be beefed up not only because of LatAm....but because the yields out of it to destinations to such as LHR, DXB, LOS, DOH, NRT (rumored to be one of CO best yielding routes) are excellent. There is room to grow with fairly limited competition. For example if UACO launched IAH-LOS or IAH-HKG tomorrow..it would go gangbusters.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: eastern023
Posted 2010-05-07 13:56:58 and read 20739 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 6):
for cities served it is already #1 to Central America (including Mexico). It should continue to grow in South America, and possibly the Carib. If the politcal aviation rules would change, for example, IAH-MAR is one CO stated would start very quickly.

Destinations such as: LPB, VVI, GYE, SCL (return to as both CO and UA served it at some point), COR, MVD....hmmm. Yes, DFW and MIA beware!.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2010-05-07 14:04:59 and read 20665 times.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 9):
Destinations such as: LPB, VVI, GYE, SCL (return to as both CO and UA served it at some point), COR, MVD....hmmm. Yes, DFW and MIA beware!.

True, many good choices that I think we will see come to fruition.
IIRC though IAH is bigger than DFW in Int'l traffic as whole not MIA.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: mah4546
Posted 2010-05-07 14:10:01 and read 20629 times.

The merger adds three daily flights and zero destinations to CO's already extensive network. Whether or not CO grows in the region is certainly a question, but the merger doesn't add much and I would reason to say that CO would go on the same LatAm path regardless of the merger.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-07 14:10:17 and read 20614 times.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 9):
Destinations such as: LPB, VVI, GYE, SCL (return to as both CO and UA served it at some point), COR, MVD....hmmm.

I don't really see how this merger would make any of those markets any more or less viable.

CO already tried Bolivia years ago, and it didn't work. The market from the U.S. isn't that huge, and what market there is is rather concentrated. What would this merger do to make this market any larger or broader for CO versus last time?

GYE - another market CO already tried (via PTY, and I believe also non-stop at one point). Either way, it also didn't work. And once again, how would a merger change that?

As for SCL - that one, I think, would be viable for CO today, right now, with or without a merger. I think a well-timed flight from IAH would do well. That is irregardless of any merger.

COR isn't viable now for CO, nor would it ever be. The only U.S. market that would work to/from COR would be MIA, not IAH or IAD or EWR, with or without a merger.

MVD - yeah, maybe, someday - but in any event, it would probably only ever be 1-stop via EZE. That one might actually benefit from increased connectivity in EZE (namely from IAD + IAH, plus maybe EWR).

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: STT757
Posted 2010-05-07 15:15:36 and read 20390 times.

Former CO/UA Latin American routes:

IAH-Barranquila (via SJO)
IAH-Cali (via SJO)
IAH-Cali
IAH-Guayaquil
IAH-Santa Cruz (via LIM)

EWR-
Guayaquil (via PTY)
Guayaquil
Quito (via BOG)
Santiago
Santiago (via LIM)
Caracas
Rio De Janeiro-Belo Horizonte

LAX-
SAL
GUA, SAL

UA:
MIA-
Buenos Aires
Caracas
Rio De Janeiro
Sao Paulo
Santiago
San Jose
Guatemala City
Lima

JFK-
Caracas, Port of Spain
Buenos Aires-Montevideo
Sao Paulo-Rio De Janeiro

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-07 15:26:33 and read 20336 times.

United will have service from IAD, ORD, IAH and EWR to Sao Paulo plus IAD and IAH to Buenos Aires, those two most important cities will be served six times daily by the (new) United. Continental has massive service to nortth Lain America and Mexico, United will be in a very good position for Travel to our Spanish speaking neighbors. Miami isn't everything.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: STT757
Posted 2010-05-07 15:28:54 and read 20321 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
United will be in a very good position for Travel to our Spanish speaking neighbors

And Portuguese.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: C010T3
Posted 2010-05-07 15:43:37 and read 20239 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
Spanish speaking neighbors

I'm sure you didn't mean that.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
United will have service from IAD, ORD, IAH and EWR to Sao Paulo plus IAD and IAH to Buenos Aires

GIG is about to eclipse EZE in terms of flighs to the US and has more potential to for the new United, since it will become a Star hub.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: mah4546
Posted 2010-05-07 16:03:10 and read 20162 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 16):

GIG is about to eclipse EZE in terms of flighs to the US and has more potential to for the new United, since it will become a Star hub.

Looking at peak schedules and including future new service coming this year:

GIG - MIA 19w, JFK 11w, ATL 7w, IAH 7w, CLT 7w
EZE - MIA 32w, DFW 7w, ATL 7w, IAD 7w, JFK 7w, IAH 7w

EZE still has 32% more weekly non-stop flights.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: C010T3
Posted 2010-05-07 16:25:03 and read 20058 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 17):
Looking at peak schedules and including future new service coming this year:

15% if you count IAD in. We also have to wait and see if AA extends DFW to GIG, which would decrease the gap to 3%. GIG would surpass EZE if JJ adds the rumoured three JFK missing frequencies for the nonstop, but we can't forget JJ's one-stop flights to GIG from both JFK and MIA, so we could add 14w on top of that. That's why say that GIG is about to eclipse EZE. Totality could be reached as soon as 2011.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: mah4546
Posted 2010-05-07 16:28:35 and read 20042 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 18):
15% if you count IAD in. We also have to wait and see if AA extends DFW to GIG, which would decrease the gap to 3%.

I don't count in any tag-on flights which receive feed from multiple other services and often land as little as 30% full.

EZE has nearly one-third more non-stop capacity to the United States.

And with the DL/US deal dead, let's see what US Airways decides to do because it's obvious it wants GRU, not GIG.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-05-07 16:47:52 and read 19963 times.

IAH is well positioned geographically to take people to/from Central/South America to just about anywhere west of the Mississippi, even California.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: C010T3
Posted 2010-05-07 17:22:36 and read 19810 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
I don't count in any tag-on flights which receive feed from multiple other services and often land as little as 30% full.

EZE has nearly one-third more non-stop capacity to the United States.

I wasn't counting capacity. I was referring to the flight links only.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: platinumfoota
Posted 2010-05-07 23:46:47 and read 19192 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
LAX to Central America and Chicago to Mexico.

Doesn't Taca who is in *A cover this? I remember UA cut LAX-SAL/GUA and instead codeshared.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: relaxitsfedex7
Posted 2010-05-08 00:41:18 and read 18965 times.

Quoting chepos (Reply 1):

I know that AA won't let UA/CO built their presents up in MIA, But they do have a chance to build up there presents in MCO. Is that possible? or is that to much work?

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: STT757
Posted 2010-05-08 04:08:38 and read 18247 times.

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 22):
Doesn't Taca who is in *A cover this? I remember UA cut LAX-SAL/GUA and instead codeshared.

True, but CO has never been one to let an Alliance partner do what they could do themselves. And CO's management for the most part will be running the new UA.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: fun2fly
Posted 2010-05-08 04:46:25 and read 18370 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
As for SCL - that one, I think, would be viable for CO today, right now, with or without a merger. I think a well-timed flight from IAH would do well. That is irregardless of any merger.

Perfect 762 Route = High density business class, not a lot of risk due to 174 seats.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-08 07:27:33 and read 17548 times.

Doesn't look like the new UA/CO will be looking to set-up a hub in South Florida (which mean AA MIA stronghold isn't the only airport suitable for a hub overthere). What UA/CO could do is that if there are important destinations in Latinamerica or Caribbean which can't support a regular non-stop to one of UA/CO hubs, UA/CO could operate some flights to those places from it's South Florida focus airport, focus not hub.
IAH-VVI, IAH-ASU, IAH-COR or EWR-FOR/REC couldn't really work, however IMHO, FLL/PBI to VVI, ASU, COR or FOR/REC might do.
Also there is the option to fly from almost all UA/CO hubs to PTY and let CM fly the passengers from there to those places which can't support UA/CO direct flights.

It's quite possible that UA/CO could transfer the authority for IAD-EZE to fly EWR-EZE with or without back-up IAD-EZE 3 days per week?

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-05-08 07:34:25 and read 17718 times.

Quoting relaxitsfedex7 (Reply 23):
I know that AA won't let UA/CO built their presents up in MIA, But they do have a chance to build up there presents in MCO. Is that possible? or is that to much work?

I think around Christmas time, the "presents" should do fairly well in both MIA and MCO.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-08 07:42:41 and read 17614 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
CO already tried Bolivia years ago, and it didn't work. The market from the U.S. isn't that huge, and what market there is is rather concentrated. What would this merger do to make this market any larger or broader for CO versus last time?

May be now works considering new gas discoveries.

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
GYE - another market CO already tried (via PTY, and I believe also non-stop at one point). Either way, it also didn't work. And once again, how would a merger change that?

It depends how oil market is doing. GYE is already well served to the United States and the sole difference would be the oil industry.

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
COR isn't viable now for CO, nor would it ever be. The only U.S. market that would work to/from COR would be MIA, not IAH or IAD or EWR, with or without a merger.

Agree about SCL specially with the 762, but in my view, COR could work if CO/UA establish a route before AA. UA/CO have a plane, Commavia, in my view, very good to begin a new route: the Boeing 767-200ER as mentioned by fun2fly

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
United will have service from IAD, ORD, IAH and EWR to Sao Paulo plus IAD and IAH to Buenos Aires, those two most important cities will be served six times daily by the (new) United

I'm sure new United will add Rio to your short list. CO performance on IAH-GIG is very good and it's many times, not enough for the growing oil industry demand. If CO was already in need of a second flight to allow IAH-GIG can accomodate more of the (very) high yields of the oil & gas world, with UA it could work to use the 7 unused frequencies on a year-round flight. The point is , from where ? IAD ? ORD ? EWR ?

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: airbazar
Posted 2010-05-08 08:06:29 and read 17412 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
The merger adds three daily flights and zero destinations to CO's already extensive network. Whether or not CO grows in the region is certainly a question, but the merger doesn't add much and I would reason to say that CO would go on the same LatAm path regardless of the merger.

How can you say that if the merger is not even approved? I'm sure there will be a good number of redundant routes that will free up aircraft to start new routes immediately. What those routes will be we can only guess at this point. For example, CLE will likely go away as a hub thus freeing up aircraft for new routes from the remaining hubs. Also I don't think all TATL flights from both EWR and IAD will remain. That's too much capacity from the same region. For connecting passengers it makes little difference where the connection is in IAD or EWR. The same will be true about flight sfrom DEN/IAH to South and Central America.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Aeroflot001
Posted 2010-05-08 08:28:08 and read 17236 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 16):
I'm sure you didn't mean that.

Orgulho de ser brasileiro
Orgulloso de ser brasileño

Spanish and Portuguese, whats the difference?   

I am assuming that the new United will beef things up at IAH to provide better service to South America but wont surpass MIA with AA

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2010-05-08 09:09:53 and read 16932 times.

UA has been having problems making LAX-MEX and ORD-MEX work due to the strong MX competition.

Do you guys think that post-merger the new UA will try to become a relevant player in these two routes again?

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: United1
Posted 2010-05-08 09:21:16 and read 16836 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):
UA has been having problems making LAX-MEX and ORD-MEX work due to the strong MX competition.

Do you guys think that post-merger the new UA will try to become a relevant player in these two routes again?

I think that is where you are going to see allot of UAs Latin America growth in the coming years. The new UA will be able to leverage off COs existing service in Mexico/Central America and the Caribbean and connect UAs pre merger hubs better with those markets. I would think that ORD/LAX-MEX would be fairly high on the list.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: bogota
Posted 2010-05-08 09:21:40 and read 16834 times.

I think one of the biggest questions regarding UA/CO in Latin America is what is going to happen with CO association with CM, as the latter has been a very important ally to CO in the region. If CM does join Star or not, and if AV/TA join the same alliance then things are going to highly improve in favor of the new airline hurting in my opinion the interests of AA beyond the South Florida region.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-08 11:27:34 and read 16043 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):
May be now works considering new gas discoveries.

Okay, but that's not a result of the merger. Bolivia may or may not work - but either way, it won't be because of a merger.

Beyond that, anything's possible, I guess, but I just don't see it, given the economic and political issues Bolivia has had recently.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):
It depends how oil market is doing. GYE is already well served to the United States and the sole difference would be the oil industry.

Although again - what does that have to do with a merger? Again, that's the point I was making: GYE may be viable now, but I see no reason why it would be viable for a merged company a year from now, but not CO alone today.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):
COR could work if CO/UA establish a route before AA. UA/CO have a plane, Commavia, in my view, very good to begin a new route: the Boeing 767-200ER as mentioned by fun2fly

Okay, but from where?

Do you think that CO and/or a merged UA could make a 767 work to COR from IAD? ORD? IAH? EWR?

I don't.

Of all of those, EWR seems the least far-fetched to me, but even that seems quite out there.

As I said, I personally think the only market that could work nonstop from the U.S. to COR would be MIA with a 757.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
What those routes will be we can only guess at this point.

I think that's the point of this whole thread. And I think the point many are making is that this merger doesn't really have any material additive effect on which routes will be added. The fundamentals, especially when it comes to South America, are almost unchanged with or without a merger.

As I said - there are virtually no markets I can think of today that would be viable with this merger that wouldn't also be viable without it. In other words: I think that any new, prospective markets CO could add in Latin America today could be added today, with or without a merger.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
Also I don't think all TATL flights from both EWR and IAD will remain. That's too much capacity from the same region. For connecting passengers it makes little difference where the connection is in IAD or EWR.

I doubt it highly. Not only will these two hubs coexist, but I believe they will compliment and strengthen each other excellently.

EWR/IAD creates a perfect mix, with the combined company able to optimize IAD for lots of connections, and focus EWR more on O&D in the big markets, and on connections in the smaller markets that could only ever work from NYC.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
The same will be true about flight sfrom DEN/IAH to South and Central America.

What flights from DEN to South and/or Central America would be redundant?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):
UA has been having problems making LAX-MEX and ORD-MEX work due to the strong MX competition.

Do you guys think that post-merger the new UA will try to become a relevant player in these two routes again?

I think that will be one immediate, tangible network/revenue impact of the merger - Continental's huge presence in Mexico will definitely help the combined company.

Quoting bogota (Reply 33):
I think one of the biggest questions regarding UA/CO in Latin America is what is going to happen with CO association with CM, as the latter has been a very important ally to CO in the region.

That's one I'd like to know as well.

[Edited 2010-05-08 11:29:30]

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: kiwiandrew
Posted 2010-05-08 12:29:47 and read 15621 times.

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 22):
Doesn't Taca who is in *A cover this?

Except of course for the minor fact that TACA aren't in *A . At some point they could be , but for the moment they have not yet joined , or even been formally announced as a future member .

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: CALPSAFltSkeds
Posted 2010-05-08 12:39:50 and read 15579 times.

The most important thing I can see is the potential of utilizing some of SA)">UA's 752 and 763ER aircraft for international expansion. With 739ER aircraft coming online and possible changes like SA)">CO's 753s going onto Hawaiian routes, redeployment can free up aircraft that can provide TATL or SA services. The carrier will have to analyze potential additions for the best opportunities.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: mah4546
Posted 2010-05-08 13:07:43 and read 15402 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):

Agree about SCL specially with the 762, but in my view, COR could work if CO/UA establish a route before AA. UA/CO have a plane, Commavia, in my view, very good to begin a new route: the Boeing 767-200ER as mentioned by fun2fly

It won't. COR-U.S. market is over 75% to Miami. Overfly three-fourth of an already small market? Not going to happen. Same reason IAH-VVI/CLO did not work.

Besides, you realize that if CO/UA announces COR, AA will just announce COR the next day?

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 26):
FLL/PBI to VVI, ASU, COR or FOR/REC might do.

Get it out of your head that PBI is a viable alternative to MIA. You bring it up consistnetly. It's not true. PBI-VVI? Seriously? No. FLL-ASU? That's just as dumb.

[Edited 2010-05-08 13:09:12]

[Edited 2010-05-08 13:11:11]

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: airbazar
Posted 2010-05-08 13:16:59 and read 15329 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
I think that's the point of this whole thread. And I think the point many are making is that this merger doesn't really have any material additive effect on which routes will be added. The fundamentals, especially when it comes to South America, are almost unchanged with or without a merger.

Then you missed my comment. I gave a couple of reasons as to why this merger will be beneficial to the new UA in South/Central America. By eliminating redundant service it will be able to redeploy aircraft on new route or increase frequencies. Pre-merger UA does not have any available aircraft to start new routes. The merger should provide UA with instant available aircraft.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-08 13:29:41 and read 15277 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
Okay, but that's not a result of the merger. Bolivia may or may not work - but either way, it won't be because of a merger.

Beyond that, anything's possible, I guess, but I just don't see it, given the economic and political issues Bolivia has had recently.

I agree that's not because of the merger. But we need to be in mind that they might free some aircraft. About political issues, yes you might be right, but it's the same with Venezuela. I just imagine the market now for UA/CO is bigger than before!

Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
Okay, but from where?

Do you think that CO and/or a merged UA could make a 767 work to COR from IAD? ORD? IAH? EWR?

IAH seems better, EWR as you mentioned could be another good alternative. But not as a daily route.

Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
As I said, I personally think the only market that could work nonstop from the U.S. to COR would be MIA with a 757

No doubt MIA is better, but without MIA, the opportunity is created.

Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
Although again - what does that have to do with a merger? Again, that's the point I was making: GYE may be viable now, but I see no reason why it would be viable for a merged company a year from now, but not CO alone today.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: mah4546
Posted 2010-05-08 13:31:02 and read 15293 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 39):
Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
As I said, I personally think the only market that could work nonstop from the U.S. to COR would be MIA with a 757

No doubt MIA is better, but without MIA, the opportunity is created.

How? The majority of the market will continue to take options like LAN or Copa.

The market is really small, Lipe. Really, really really small. It's like saying the market is created for American Airlines to begin Miami-Damascus because no other airline flies it.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-08 13:32:10 and read 15273 times.

No doubt some routes might not work with UA orCO alone, but Now the chances are bigger and better with a bigger customer base!

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: embrider
Posted 2010-05-08 13:39:50 and read 15232 times.

What is the point on keeping flights from GRU to both EWR and IAD? It seems smarter to transfer one of them to a west hub, perhaps LAX or DEN

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: STT757
Posted 2010-05-08 14:49:44 and read 15065 times.

Quoting embrider (Reply 42):
What is the point on keeping flights from GRU to both EWR and IAD? It seems smarter to transfer one of them to a west hub, perhaps LAX or DEN

The point is there is enough local demand to sustain those flights at both EWR and IAD, any connecting traffic is secondary to the local traffic.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2010-05-08 16:26:59 and read 14956 times.

I dont think Latin American service is going to change much. Both airlines already fly the cities that make sense from their respective hubs. The merger isnt going to make cities with little to no market viable. Markets like LPB, VVI, or the return of GYE probably wont happen from anywhere. I think they would probably struggle to make EWR/IAD/IAH-SCL work, but they because the market is so well served for its size.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-08 19:05:10 and read 14723 times.

Quoting embrider (Reply 42):
What is the point on keeping flights from GRU to both EWR and IAD? It seems smarter to transfer one of them to a west hub, perhaps LAX or DEN
Quoting STT757 (Reply 43):
The point is there is enough local demand to sustain those flights at both EWR and IAD, any connecting traffic is secondary to the local traffic.

Exactly the point. New York and Washington can support each one daily services. Of course what could happen is change of aircrafts if they detect that demand from EWR is bigger and IAD is smaller, or if UA now decides to fly also IAD-GIG year-round.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: CALPSAFltSkeds
Posted 2010-05-08 21:00:16 and read 14483 times.

Sorry duplicate post from earlier today.

[Edited 2010-05-08 21:02:49]

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-08 22:18:27 and read 14428 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 44):
I dont think Latin American service is going to change much.

Agreed with respect to CO's service, but I could see some of the UA service changing. In particular, I could see IAD-EZE/GIG moving to EWR. That's sort of a double-edged sword; NYC is a stronger local market to both places but also has more competition. Still, UA's use of its Brasil frequencies suggests that IAD-GIG isn't terribly successful, so it's tough for me to believe that EWR-GIG could do much worse than IAD-GIG.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: platinumfoota
Posted 2010-05-08 22:49:36 and read 14364 times.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 35):
Except of course for the minor fact that TACA aren't in *A . At some point they could be , but for the moment they have not yet joined , or even been formally announced as a future member .

   That's right they just codeshare.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: PKRJ
Posted 2010-05-09 06:41:41 and read 14182 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
so it's tough for me to believe that EWR-GIG could do much worse than IAD-GIG.

I don't agree. Newark has a huge Brazilian colony. Maybe a non stop EWR-GIG would be a good O&D flight, or also TAM could make many cod-share connection flights from GIG to other cities in Brazil, since they'll join Star Alliance. it could be a great flight to bring many Brazilians from all over the country to Newark and vice-versa.

As a hub to connect flights in the US I agree it;s not that great since EWR and IAD stay on the East Coast, so for people who want to fly to the West Cost, the hub in IAH is much better.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: STT757
Posted 2010-05-09 07:37:21 and read 14059 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
That's sort of a double-edged sword; NYC is a stronger local market to both places but also has more competition.

They do and they don't, there's competition from Queens. But the main Portuguese/Brazilian population center of the area is in Newark New Jersey. CO previously flew EWR-GIG-CNF with a DC-10-30, I think the same route with a 767-300 would do well this time around.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-09 16:44:32 and read 13670 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
Agreed with respect to CO's service, but I could see some of the UA service changing. In particular, I could see IAD-EZE/GIG moving to EWR. That's sort of a double-edged sword; NYC is a stronger local market to both places but also has more competition. Still, UA's use of its Brasil frequencies suggests that IAD-GIG isn't terribly successful, so it's tough for me to believe that EWR-GIG could do much worse than IAD-GIG
Quoting PKRJ (Reply 49):
I don't agree. Newark has a huge Brazilian colony. Maybe a non stop EWR-GIG would be a good O&D flight, or also TAM could make many cod-share connection flights from GIG to other cities in Brazil, since they'll join Star Alliance. it could be a great flight to bring many Brazilians from all over the country to Newark and vice-versa.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 50):
They do and they don't, there's competition from Queens. But the main Portuguese/Brazilian population center of the area is in Newark New Jersey. CO previously flew EWR-GIG-CNF with a DC-10-30, I think the same route with a 767-300 would do well this time around.

Agree that CNF could be added allowing also connections from IAH-GIG to CNF. EWR-GIG-CNF would be a fantastic flight given current demand for business to/from Rio with the leisure and VFR to Minas Gerais.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: ba747
Posted 2010-05-09 17:30:17 and read 13552 times.

Are we Venezuelans going to see the following flights back:

CCS/MIA UA
CCS/JFK UA
CCS/EWR CO

I really hope so. It is frustating when you want to go to the US and AA its always full and CO only does IAH. Or DL thru Atlanta and conections are not the best.

Regards,

Alex

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: mah4546
Posted 2010-05-09 17:42:58 and read 13561 times.

Quoting ba747 (Reply 52):
Are we Venezuelans going to see the following flights back:

No. The Venezuelan government has not allowed any new service between the U.S. and Venezuela in five years and has shown no signs of changing that. Blame the government, not the airlines. AA has applications for MIA-VLN and SJU-VLN still pending; NK for FLL-CCS.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-09 18:46:38 and read 13376 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 51):
Agree that CNF could be added allowing also connections from IAH-GIG to CNF. EWR-GIG-CNF would be a fantastic flight given current demand for business to/from Rio with the leisure and VFR to Minas Gerais.

I wonder whether they could find 3-4 frequencies - perhaps one or two each from IAD-GRU and ORD-GRU - to start a nonstop to CNF.

Even if they could, I don't know that it would be preferable. As you say, yields aren't the best, but the 762 seems like the airplane with which to try a CNF nonstop, and that's a tool that the competition doesn't have.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-09 18:50:26 and read 13381 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 54):
I wonder whether they could find 3-4 frequencies - perhaps one or two each from IAD-GRU and ORD-GRU - to start a nonstop to CNF.

Even if they could, I don't know that it would be preferable. As you say, yields aren't the best, but the 762 seems like the airplane with which to try a CNF nonstop, and that's a tool that the competition doesn't have.

I'm not sure if any of UA/CO's U.S. hubs could support a nonstop to GIG. Of all of them, EWR would probably be the one with the best shot, but I personally still think the idea of EWR-GIG-CNF would probably be preferable, if anything.

For starters, I think CO could make EWR-GIG work, at least a few times per week. Secondly, if it was well-timed, with the CNF flight in and out of GIG able to connect with the IAH flights, that would help.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: COflyerBOS
Posted 2010-05-09 18:59:35 and read 13359 times.

I love Continental (United) and IAH, but I just don't see too many opportunities for growth in new markets.

SCL- There's a chance we could see a 762 thrown at the market but I am not certain it would be a slam dunk. It's the right sized aircraft to try it though.

GYE- I think this one is likely to return. A 73G is the right size and the route was flown for a few years non-stop from IAH. I've heard rumors that CO execs believe they were too hasty to pull out of the market (global economic collapse).

As for Venezuela and Bolivia, not a chance unless there is major political change in those countries. I used to think an IAH- Maracaibo route would do well, but Chavez isn't about to let an American carrier serve a new market to his country. Also, between the economy and political unrest, CCS has been downgraded from a 739/738 to a 73G. That's not a good sign.

Any other Brazilian, Argentine, or Uruguayuan service from IAH is a pipe dream. There's simply no market.

Now, what I could see happening is more Mexican service (CO just announced IAH- Tuxtla Gutierrez) and there are some smaller airports that could still see service (new or returning). Plus, I think throwing some UA E75s to Mexico could be a good idea, especially to business markets like MTY, MEX, and GDL. I'd imagine the lack of a first class might hurt CO on some connecting opportunities.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: C010T3
Posted 2010-05-09 19:54:10 and read 13234 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 55):
I'm not sure if any of UA/CO's U.S. hubs could support a nonstop to GIG.

I don't understand how you can say that in absolute terms. IAD-GIG was working for UA until the crisis hit in 2008. They even extended the season in 2008 ccompared to 2007, because the results were satisfactoy. Of course, the results were terrible in both IAD-GRU and IAD-GIG in Winter 2008/09, because the demand plummeted after the demise of Lehman Brothers. Parallelly JJ was adding 11x weekly frequencies MIA/JFK, CO 3x weekly IAH and AA 3x weekly JFK. UA just basically gave up in 2009/10, since CO was coming daily and US adding daily flights to CLT.
If the problem were GIG, UA could have flown IAD-GRU seasonal instead, but the problem was Brazil as a whole. The next most logical addition in the US-Brazil market is EWR/IAD-GIG year-round right after AA's JFK-GIG. This year is perhaps not the best time yet, but, as soon as the capacity is needed, that's where it should go.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-09 19:56:45 and read 13220 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 57):
I don't understand how you can say that in absolute terms.

Sorry - I meant CNF.

As I already said, I definitely think EWR could support a GIG nonstop at least several times per week, and IAH already is.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-09 20:07:41 and read 13185 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 54):
I wonder whether they could find 3-4 frequencies - perhaps one or two each from IAD-GRU and ORD-GRU - to start a nonstop to CNF.

Even if they could, I don't know that it would be preferable. As you say, yields aren't the best, but the 762 seems like the airplane with which to try a CNF nonstop, and that's a tool that the competition doesn't have.

Could be good for UA/CO to open CNF as a tag to may be open as a non-stop in 2011 when more frequencies become available or a potential open skies ex-Sao Paulo become effective. CO/UA, if they want to develop Brazil (and South America), they could do this (introduce tags) in a way to have a better picture of a new market.

This could be the case for MVD, COR, POA, CWB and CNF.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 57):
but the problem was Brazil as a whole. The next most logical addition in the US-Brazil market is EWR/IAD-GIG year-round right after AA's JFK-GIG. This year is perhaps not the best time yet, but, as soon as the capacity is needed, that's where it should go.

That's a very complete statement that explains how UA decided not to venture again on IAD-GIG (as well as AA operated less frequencies to MIA and DL do not run their daylights) for a longer time during IATA winter 2009/2010.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: C010T3
Posted 2010-05-09 20:28:35 and read 13148 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 58):
Sorry - I meant CNF.

Oh, OK, I see what you mean. CNF does not work yet, but it may in the future after AA is well established with daily flights to MIA, but UA would have to arrive before DL.
What could also be interesting is if UA would be interested in returning to MVD. If the new UA is interested in developing IAH further as a gateway to Latin America, GIG could be used as a scissors hub. IAH-GIG-MVD, EWR-GIG-CNF, so the water could be tested at both end destinations for future nonstop flights. UA flew to MVD for so long, so there must be somthing valuable in that market.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-09 20:34:52 and read 13119 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 60):
CNF does not work yet, but it may in the future after AA is well established with daily flights to MIA, but UA would have to arrive before DL.

I think that at least for now any other airline would probably be better to do a 1-stop through GIG.

And I agree that there is probably - in the near-term - only maybe space for one other U.S. carrier at CNF. Whether that's DL or UA/CO, I don't think it could be both, at least not profitably.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 60):
What could also be interesting is if UA would be interested in returning to MVD. If the new UA is interested in developing IAH further as a gateway to Latin America, GIG could be used as a scissors hub. IAH-GIG-MVD, EWR-GIG-CNF, so the water could be tested at both end destinations for future nonstop flights. UA flew to MVD for so long, so there must be somthing valuable in that market.

Personally, I think that if another U.S. carrier is again to re-enter the MVD market, EZE would probably be the better stopover point, not GRU.

Now, if the new UA-CO had a daily IAH-EZE and IAD-EZE, and they were timed together, and both provided the same onward connection to/from MVD, then that could maybe work I think.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: rleiro
Posted 2010-05-09 20:48:08 and read 13073 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 53):
No. The Venezuelan government has not allowed any new service between the U.S. and Venezuela in five years and has shown no signs of changing that. Blame the government, not the airlines. AA has applications for MIA-VLN and SJU-VLN still pending; NK for FLL-CCS.

  

Add this that in 1999 / 2000 UA requested CCS - IAD, which was denied, as well as American Eagle SJU PMV, which was denied as well.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 56):
As for Venezuela and Bolivia, not a chance unless there is major political change in those countries. I used to think an IAH- Maracaibo route would do well, but Chavez isn't about to let an American carrier serve a new market to his country. Also, between the economy and political unrest, CCS has been downgraded from a 739/738 to a 73G. That's not a good sign.

I highly doubt that there is a market for a daily IAH - MAR. I believe that this traffic can be perfectly served via PTY with Copa as it has been done this far.

Saludos,

Roberto.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: C010T3
Posted 2010-05-09 20:52:58 and read 13044 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 61):
Whether that's DL or UA/CO, I don't think it could be both, at least not profitably.

Yes, we also have to wait and see how the new UA will invest in its South American network. If the effort doesn't start being comparable to DL and AA's, it shouldn't even bother trying CNF.

Quoting commavia (Reply 61):
Personally, I think that if another U.S. carrier is again to re-enter the MVD market, EZE would probably be the better stopover point, not GRU.

I don't agree. GIG and GRU will become Star hubs and could easily feed the tag-on flight, reducing its losses.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: PKRJ
Posted 2010-05-09 20:53:43 and read 13056 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 61):
Now, if the new UA-CO had a daily IAH-EZE and IAD-EZE, and they were timed together, and both provided the same onward connection to/from MVD, then that could maybe work I think.

I never understood how come MVD has such a low demand? They just have two routes to outside South America. One to MAD and the other to MIA with a stopover in EZE. Can someone explain that to me please? Other countries much poorer than Uruguay have many more flights.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2010-05-09 21:06:56 and read 13032 times.

Quoting rleiro (Reply 62):
highly doubt that there is a market for a daily IAH - MAR. I believe that this traffic can be perfectly served via PTY with Copa as it has been done this far.

You are incorrect, There is a market. Local IAH oil industry has asked for it for years (there is a reason YEG IAH was started again even though it was served well via connection). As noted currently traffic is split between AA going to MIA and CO/COPA via PTY but with cargo and a decent enough demand this flight would work well from day one. There are currently three corporate contracts from IAH to MAR, with Bechtel, Citgo, and Chevron, and only one is with CO as the others are with AA --that would easily change with the non-stop (Bechtel has said so several times).

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: rleiro
Posted 2010-05-09 21:39:02 and read 12966 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 65):
You are incorrect, There is a market. Local IAH oil industry has asked for it for years (there is a reason YEG IAH was started again even though it was served well via connection). As noted currently traffic is split between AA going to MIA and CO/COPA via PTY but with cargo and a decent enough demand this flight would work well from day one.

Please read carefully my words... There is no market for a daily service, I agree IAH and MAR have a strong commercial link, and a route might work, but never in a daily basis...

Saludos,

Roberto.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2010-05-09 21:48:31 and read 12927 times.

Quoting rleiro (Reply 66):
Please read carefully my words... There is no market for a daily service, I agree IAH and MAR have a strong commercial link, and a route might work, but never in a daily basis...

Saludos,

Roberto.

OK, mi dispiace, lo siento, I'm sorry if you wrote/meant otherwise. I tend to disagree on the daily service part. I think daily would work but 5x a week would be a good start. Sadly, Due to current political climates in both countries this flight will not be allowed at this time. But hey, when I lived in MAR initially that was back in the VIASA days, so this is a nice change to discuss as far as I'm concerned!

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-09 21:50:57 and read 12946 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 65):
Local IAH oil industry has asked for it for years

If CO hasn't been able to start IAH-MAR, how come - knowing there's a demmand - no Venezuelan airline has started the flight?

IMHO, for Brazil, maybe is better for UA/CO to tag-on CNF, maybe POA (but not daily year-around) to GRU for IAH, EWR, ORD and IAD; plus SSA (!) to GIG for IAH, EWR and possible IAD a couple of days per week.
MVD could work as tag-on from EZE for IAH, EWR and IAD.

If there some gas-related busines between VVI and IAH, and if UA/CO could get to fly via LIM - traffic permitted, maybe VVI should be studied. Don't know if currently that gas-related traffic flies CO/CM via PTY.

SCL could do just fine with B767-200ER a couple of days per week from IAH, as long as some good cargo contracts are secured (or offers tag-on to MDZ so to get more cargo/passengers).

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: rleiro
Posted 2010-05-09 21:56:42 and read 12899 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 67):
OK, mi dispiace, lo siento, I'm sorry if you wrote/meant otherwise. I tend to disagree on the daily service part. I think daily would work but 5x a week would be a good start. Sadly, Due to current political climates in both countries this flight will not be allowed at this time. But hey, when I lived in MAR initially that was back in the VIASA days, so this is a nice change to discuss as far as I'm concerned!

It's OK amigo, it's great to discuss about Venezuelan Aviation in this forum.

As you mentioned, the political (and economic) climate between two countries is not as good as it is used to be. When you lived in MAR (in the VIASA era) situation was way different than now.

If political / economic / diplomatic situation improved (even one out of these three), and flight rights to and from the US were granted, I believe a IAH - MAR service would be feasible, even a FLL - MAR service would make great numbers... but right now it's just a dream quite far away of becoming true.

Saludos,

Roberto.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: thomasphoto60
Posted 2010-05-09 22:03:36 and read 12876 times.

Quoting rleiro (Reply 66):
Please read carefully my words... There is no market for a daily service, I agree IAH and MAR have a strong commercial link, and a route might work, but never in a daily basis...

Help me out here guys, however I seem to recall seeing an old CO Timetable from the early 80s (post strike and shutdown) showing MAR (as well as CCS) being serviced from IAH, or was that my imagination?

Thomas

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: rleiro
Posted 2010-05-10 03:11:29 and read 12707 times.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 70):
Help me out here guys, however I seem to recall seeing an old CO Timetable from the early 80s (post strike and shutdown) showing MAR (as well as CCS) being serviced from IAH, or was that my imagination?

It was not your imagination. You're right: CO served MAR, as well as PA and Viasa did too... Unfortunately, the 1983 black friday killed the route. Thereafter, there have been attempts to reopen the route, albeit without success.

In the case of Caracas PA, EA, and Avensa and Viasa served MIA, JFK and IAH, as well as the classic seasonal flights to MCO.

Saludos,

Roberto.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: STT757
Posted 2010-05-10 04:37:10 and read 12639 times.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 70):
Help me out here guys, however I seem to recall seeing an old CO Timetable from the early 80s (post strike and shutdown) showing MAR (as well as CCS) being serviced from IAH, or was that my imagination?

I thought it was via New Orleans.

Quoting rleiro (Reply 71):
In the case of Caracas PA, EA, and Avensa and Viasa served MIA, JFK and IAH, as well as the classic seasonal flights to MCO.

I remember Viasa flew to IAH with an A300.


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Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-10 07:03:01 and read 12452 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 60):
What could also be interesting is if UA would be interested in returning to MVD. If the new UA is interested in developing IAH further as a gateway to Latin America, GIG could be used as a scissors hub. IAH-GIG-MVD, EWR-GIG-CNF, so the water could be tested at both end destinations for future nonstop flights. UA flew to MVD for so long, so there must be somthing valuable in that market.

As i mentioned, tags could help UA/CO to enter into markets like ASU, MVD, SCL, COR as well as domestic markets in Brazil (CNF, POA and CWB). But they would need more than the 7 frequencies currently available for use.
I see was a big mistake for UA/CO to not apply for more frequencies on the current draft allocation.

Quoting PKRJ (Reply 64):
I never understood how come MVD has such a low demand? They just have two routes to outside South America. One to MAD and the other to MIA with a stopover in EZE. Can someone explain that to me please? Other countries much poorer than Uruguay have many more flights.

The demand is bigger than 2 flights, but fly thru other gateways: Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo and even in less extent Rio de Janeiro or Lima. AA flies non-stop to MVD, but not daily.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-10 07:08:33 and read 12430 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 73):
As i mentioned, tags could help UA/CO to enter into markets like ASU, MVD, SCL, COR as well as domestic markets in Brazil (CNF, POA and CWB).

I personally think tags would be a waste of time. Star now has an excellent internal feeder network within Brazil via the country's largest airline - they should use that. No need to fly a 767 from GRU to POA when they can just put them on a lower-cost, more efficient TAM A320 in GRU or GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 73):
I see was a big mistake for UA/CO to not apply for more frequencies on the current draft allocation.

For what, though? Where would they use those extra frequencies? Again, I could see EWR-GIG (with maybe a tag onward to CNF a few days per week) working, but beyond that, where else in Brazil could they profitably fly?

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-10 07:13:14 and read 12413 times.

Quoting PKRJ (Reply 64):
They just have two routes to outside South America. One to MAD and the other to MIA with a stopover in EZE.

PTY isn't in Southamerica, so there are actually 3 routes from MVD outside Southamerica. And CM flight holds CO code-share.

Quoting rleiro (Reply 71):
It was not your imagination. You're right: CO served MAR,

CO Venezuelan flights were Braniff and before that DL. When CO took over those routes, CO didn't fly via MSY but non-stop from IAH.
What ever happened to those CO Venezuelan authorities?.
Venezuela revoked them, when?
CO EWR-CCS went the same way?

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-10 07:48:54 and read 12355 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 74):
I personally think tags would be a waste of time. Star now has an excellent internal feeder network within Brazil via the country's largest airline - they should use that. No need to fly a 767 from GRU to POA when they can just put them on a lower-cost, more efficient TAM A320 in GRU or GIG.

Tags are waste of time, yes if you can take care of the market with a non-stop. But still are a good way to develop markets, in my view. How other way to enter POA or CWB for example ?
TAM could provide better cost to fly GIG-POA, but why TAM passengers will fly CO/UA ? The advantage of a potential tag to POA is to secure a portion of an important market
Being there's no widebody service from POA, with just a tag i believe a carrier can attract significant pax loads and the best yields (you can be sure business class passengers will love the idea to fly on business since POA instead of the limited space of JJ A320)

Quoting commavia (Reply 74):
For what, though? Where would they use those extra frequencies? Again, I could see EWR-GIG (with maybe a tag onward to CNF a few days per week) working, but beyond that, where else in Brazil could they profitably fly?

If they have idea of the merger and any future new plans for South America... only on this case.
Right now i agree EWR-GIG-CNF is the sole potential route, but now, why not IAD-GIG-MVD ?

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-10 09:53:38 and read 12292 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 61):
Now, if the new UA-CO had a daily IAH-EZE and IAD-EZE, and they were timed together, and both provided the same onward connection to/from MVD, then that could maybe work I think.

That's how UA handled MVD in the early part of this decade, though the second flight was from IAH-EZE. If they bring back ORD-EZE - a route I think might work on a 762, that would provide still more feed for the flight.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: rleiro
Posted 2010-05-10 12:07:04 and read 12159 times.

CO Venezuelan flights were Braniff and before that DL. When CO took over those routes, CO didn't fly via MSY but non-stop from IAH. What ever happened to those CO Venezuelan authorities?.[/quote]

Good question... Maybe these authorities require a renewal from both DOT and INAC (The Venezuelan Civil Aviation Institution)   

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 75):
CO EWR-CCS went the same way?

EWR - CCS flights were cancelled by CO due to low loads, and increased the seat availability in the IAH - CCS run. As far as I know INAC never revoked the authority for this route... yet.

The largest CO bird in CCS in regular service has been the 757-300.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roberto Leiro - SVZM Fotografos.



Saludos,

Roberto.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Aeroflot001
Posted 2010-05-10 12:26:16 and read 12083 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
As I said, I personally think the only market that could work nonstop from the U.S. to COR would be MIA with a 757.

AA is probably the airline up to it. Would be interesting how they would handle catering at COR because although cordoba is the second biggest city in Argentina even AEP in Buenos Aires has the airport severly beat. At least the new terminal at COR did help a bit.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: eastern023
Posted 2010-05-11 18:37:12 and read 11667 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 76):
Tags are waste of time, yes if you can take care of the market with a non-stop. But still are a good way to develop markets, in my view. How other way to enter POA or CWB for example ?

Even though I agree with the statement I always thought IAD-EZE-SCL could have worked.

Did CO ever served SCL to IAH via LIM?. I think it was towards the end before they closed SCL. EWR-SCL on a DC10 when AA, LA and UA were on the USA-CHILE route was a little ballsy.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-05-11 19:21:54 and read 11607 times.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 80):
Did CO ever served SCL to IAH via LIM?

Yes they did. As you mentioned, it was near the end, prior to SCL being shut down. Unless I'm mistaken, aircraft used was a 752.

[Edited 2010-05-11 19:22:18]

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: thomasphoto60
Posted 2010-05-11 19:30:56 and read 11592 times.

Speaking of IAH and Venezuela, why did Viasa pull IAH

Quoting STT757 (Reply 72):
I remember Viasa flew to IAH with an A300.

Although there are no photos, I recall reading that Viasa also served IAH with DC-10s and DC-8s, can anyone confirm?

Thomas

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-11 19:48:33 and read 11554 times.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 80):
Even though I agree with the statement I always thought IAD-EZE-SCL could have worked.

Did CO ever served SCL to IAH via LIM?. I think it was towards the end before they closed SCL. EWR-SCL on a DC10 when AA, LA and UA were on the USA-CHILE route was a little ballsy

It could work very well if UA/CO further develop more options into EZE. With just one flight, it's not interesting for an airline to tag as this is to divide revenue without in fact generating more revenue.
But lets say UA/CO decides to run 4 flights into EZE (ORD, IAH, IAD and EWR), it makes a lot of sense to have 1 flight continuing to SCL as Santiago can help UA/CO to fill the new flights, without dividing current revenues.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: drerx7
Posted 2010-05-11 19:49:20 and read 11559 times.

Any chance we see DEN get some Latin America

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 82):
Although there are no photos, I recall reading that Viasa also served IAH with DC-10s and DC-8s, can anyone confirm?

I don't know about the DC8s but that's a yes on the DC10...I have seen pics.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-11 19:54:10 and read 11542 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 83):
But lets say UA/CO decides to run 4 flights into EZE (ORD, IAH, IAD and EWR), it makes a lot of sense to have 1 flight continuing to SCL as Santiago can help UA/CO to fill the new flights, without dividing current revenues.

But for the vast majority of Star passengers to Latin America (those with good access to YYZ), this wouldn't even be the best Star route to SCL, not to mention AA, LA, and DL. Where's the incentive for passengers to fly it? Why have so many carriers dumped the EZE-SCL tags? Five years ago, there were five carriers flying widebodies some days (LA, AC, LH, AF, AV).

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-11 19:56:20 and read 11547 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 83):
But lets say UA/CO decides to run 4 flights into EZE (ORD, IAH, IAD and EWR), it makes a lot of sense to have 1 flight continuing to SCL as Santiago can help UA/CO to fill the new flights, without dividing current revenues.

First, I'm not sure if the combined company could support 4x daily service to EZE. I think IAH plus either IAD or EWR - maybe both, but I think probably more likely either-or (at least in low season) - would be viable.

Either way, though, as I said, I think even only 2x daily flights might be enough to sustain a tag to MVD, if it's the right hubs.

Beyond that, I don't think an EZE-SCL tag would ever be viable - it hasn't been for years, because it's no longer competitive like it may have been in 1990. With the amount of capacity available between the U.S. and SCL nonstop, I can't see how a tag through EZE would ever be competitive for anything other than the lowest, least profitable fares.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-11 20:01:34 and read 11530 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
But for the vast majority of Star passengers to Latin America (those with good access to YYZ), this wouldn't even be the best Star route to SCL, not to mention AA, LA, and DL. Where's the incentive for passengers to fly it? Why have so many carriers dumped the EZE-SCL tags? Five years ago, there were five carriers flying widebodies some days (LA, AC, LH, AF, AV).

Yes will not be, but for many will be the best way to go to Chile with a Star carrier. As a tag, would not be a bad bet for UA/CO considering they run 4 flights.

The others decided that was time to go with own metal non stop (AC, AF, AV) or decided that was not the case and rely on a partner (LH / JJ).

LA and AA (Oneworld) have a very strong competitive advantage on Chile, but this doesn't mean that a one stop service can't produce in the future a non-stop. Right now to fly non-stop could be an expensive bet, and the results on the first 18 months could not generate the desirable result.
A one-stop service could allow UA/CO to research more the market, and to have more time to develop the base and the potential non-stop route, knowing which market would better perform and to be more suitable to SCL.

That's my opinion about tags, it's interesting to develop, on a time limited basis, if a market has potential demand for a non-stop , and to where to run such non-stop.

I would say AA JFK-GIG is the development of a good tag.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-11 20:50:22 and read 11463 times.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 84):
Any chance we see DEN get some Latin America

Other than flights to México and the odd weekend high season flights to some leisure hotspot like LIR, BZE or MBJ and to CO's partner CM hub (because connections @PTY); IMHO, there are almost none Latinamerican destinations which could support DEN flights, unless there's sizable Salvadorean and/or Guatemalan community in DEN, then I could dare to add either SAL or GUA to the airports mentioned earlier, same limited high-season service.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: rleiro
Posted 2010-05-11 20:53:23 and read 11456 times.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 82):
Speaking of IAH and Venezuela, why did Viasa pull IAH

Viasa ceased operations in 1997.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 82):

Although there are no photos, I recall reading that Viasa also served IAH with DC-10s and DC-8s, can anyone confirm?
Here are all the entries in the db of Viasa in IAH.

Saludos,

Roberto.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: viaggiare
Posted 2010-05-11 21:08:30 and read 11422 times.

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 22):
Doesn't Taca who is in *A cover this?

Um, TACA is not a Star Alliance member.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-12 05:33:05 and read 11308 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 83):
But lets say UA/CO decides to run 4 flights into EZE (ORD, IAH, IAD and EWR), it makes a lot of sense to have 1 flight continuing to SCL as Santiago can help UA/CO to fill the new flights, without dividing current revenues.

Four flights would require 8 767 or 777, 3 flights from Newark, Houston and Washington would seem more practicle and realistic. EZE has little traffic to ORD.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: worldtraveler
Posted 2010-05-12 05:51:53 and read 11298 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
The merger adds three daily flights and zero destinations to CO's already extensive network. Whether or not CO grows in the region is certainly a question, but the merger doesn't add much and I would reason to say that CO would go on the same LatAm path regardless of the merger.

true statement...

CO has the DNA to serve Latin America but they don't have the ideal hubs... IAH is NOT in the "flight path" of the majority of Latin traffic which originates on the east coast. IAH is ideal for central America and that is precisely where CO does very well (is the strongest US carrier).

MIA is the largest Latin gateway because of location, location, location which is also why it has some of the largest Latin populations... and MIA belongs almost exclusively to AA among US carriers.... and UA/CO doesn't compete very well in the Latin population on the east coast south of DC.. because ATL then comes into play and now CLT.... given that DL has the ability to grow ATL which is already the US' second largest gateway to Latin America by increasing capacity and adding 2nd frquencies -most destinations still have only one flight/day- CO/UA will find it very hard trying to expand in South Florida or the Southeast....

UA DOESN"T have the network DNA to serve Latin America well and combined CO doesn't help UA other than to allow some current strong CO markets to potentially be expanded to a former UA hub.... UA's network will probably shift somewhat south with new service to Africa and Latin America benefitting IAD some but CO already competes well for alot of the NE-Latin traffic over EWR....

the real factor that will help UA/CO is Star... but AA first or DL secondly are going to take advantage of the next couple years while the UA merger plays out to strengthen their positions in Latin America....given a much longer integration process of UA/CO than for DL/NW, AA and DL have several years before they have to start worrying about significant new threats from UA...

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-12 08:38:43 and read 11136 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 91):
EZE has little traffic to ORD.

Why did UA run ORD-EZE, then? If they are doing 3 flights to EZE, ORD/IAH/EWR probably makes more sense than IAH/IAD/EWR. The local markets at IAD and EZE aren't that much different and IAD and EWR serve the same connecting traffic flows.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: aer
Posted 2010-05-12 09:58:04 and read 11037 times.

Quoting bogota (Reply 33):
I think one of the biggest questions regarding UA/CO in Latin America is what is going to happen with CO association with CM, as the latter has been a very important ally to CO in the region.

Been asking the same question all around.

But IF the CO/CM deal would end, at least CM would be able to fly to IAH and EWR then.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: SATexan
Posted 2010-05-12 11:16:23 and read 10919 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 93):
Why did UA run ORD-EZE, then?

AA tried that route in 2008 and failed..

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-12 11:28:56 and read 10907 times.

Quoting SATexan (Reply 95):
AA tried that route in 2008 and failed..

Indeed. UA also ran it in the early part of last decade. The rumour was that UA was relatively satisfied with its performance and cut it because of the need to return 763s in b/k - the theory being that cutting ORDEZE freed up two aircraft, while there were few other single routes that they could cut to free up 2 763s.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-12 13:10:18 and read 10792 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 93):
Why did UA run ORD-EZE, then? If they are doing 3 flights to EZE, ORD/IAH/EWR probably makes more sense than IAH/IAD/EWR. The local markets at IAD and EZE aren't that much different and IAD and EWR serve the same connecting traffic flows.

The merger with Continental does nothing to feed an EZE flight from ORD any better then when UA did operate the route. ORD is too far north and west for a connecting hub to Argentina. AA tried it too recently and even with all th flights with 777 AA has from EZE, AA could not make ORD work.

AS far as why both IAD and EWR, why not they are two large hubs and metro areas ? IF we were taking about a flight to LHR or NRT no body would say," if you did it from IAD, EWR wouldn't work". These two airports are far enough apart for two flights to Buenos Aires.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-12 15:20:04 and read 10697 times.

United should fly a 757 from IAH to Santiago, Chile nonstop, of course.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: thomasphoto60
Posted 2010-05-12 15:35:54 and read 10654 times.

Quoting rleiro (Reply 89):
Viasa ceased operations in 1997.

Indeed, but from I have heard they pulled their IAH ops some years earlier, sometime in the early-to-mid 90s.

That said, it would be nice to see some South American metal return to IAH. However, I suppose UA will do what CO did and dominate the IAH-Latin market to such a degree, that few Latin carriers will take a chance on confronting the 600lb Gorilla on it's own turf.

Thomas

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-12 15:43:59 and read 10654 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 98):
United should fly a 757 from IAH to Santiago, Chile nonstop, of course.

IAH-EWR is 500 nm too far for a CO 752.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 97):
AA tried it too recently and even with all th flights with 777 AA has from EZE, AA could not make ORD work.

You have the reasoning backwards. AA couldn't make it work BECAUSE there was so much competition within the AA network for the connecting traffic. That wasn't true case when UA ran the route. That's why UA was more satisfied with its results than AA. Now, it's an interesting question what effect IAH service would have - one of the big problems for AA was that ORD and DFW got a lot of the same connections; IAH would be similar. But the combined carrier would have less service from other hubs, so it would be somewhat different. Would it be enough different? That's a hard question - and one reason I think 2 flights to EZE are probably enough, at least for now.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 97):
AS far as why both IAD and EWR, why not they are two large hubs and metro areas ?

How large are the ORD and IAD - Argentina local markets?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 97):
IF we were taking about a flight to LHR or NRT no body would say," if you did it from IAD, EWR wouldn't work".

But on the other hand, no one is seriously arguing that UA should fly both EWR-TXL and IAD-TXL or both EWR-BCN and IAD-BCN. Argentina is a lovely country, but it isn't Britain or Japan, and the demand to Argentina is lower.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: rleiro
Posted 2010-05-12 15:53:24 and read 10598 times.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 99):
Indeed, but from I have heard they pulled their IAH ops some years earlier, sometime in the early-to-mid 90s.

Maybe it was shortly after the privatization of the airline, when IB took over the control of Viasa there were many changes in the route network, maybe IAH was pulled out at that time. (1991 - 1992)

Saludos,

Roberto.

[Edited 2010-05-12 15:53:47]

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: love2009iah
Posted 2010-05-12 17:05:38 and read 10542 times.

I would love to see the new UA+CO using IAH as a connecting hub for paxs from the west coast to the Dominican Republic. The following city pairs will be a hit:

LAX IAH SDQ PUJ POP

SFO IAH SDQ PUJ POP

DEN IAH SDQ PUJ POP

DFW IAH SDQ PUJ POP

They need to put the pressure on long time monopoly AA has in the Dominican Republic.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-13 04:37:58 and read 10303 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 100):
But on the other hand, no one is seriously arguing that UA should fly both EWR-TXL and IAD-TXL or both EWR-BCN and IAD-BCN. Argentina is a lovely country, but it isn't Britain or Japan, and the demand to Argentina is lower.

OK, Argentina isn't the UK or Japan but service to Berlin and Barcelona could be done from both. Both airlines fly to Sao Paulo from IAD and EWR, they should continue both routes too.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 100):
How large are the ORD and IAD - Argentina local markets?

Probaby small, which is why IAD should be the EZE gateway as the "old" UA did teh flight, not ORD.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 100):
IAH-EWR is 500 nm too far for a CO 752.

752 fly very confortably between IAH and Newark.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 100):
You have the reasoning backwards. AA couldn't make it work BECAUSE there was so much competition within the AA network for the connecting traffic. That wasn't true case when UA ran the route. That's why UA was more satisfied with its results than AA. Now, it's an interesting question what effect IAH service would have - one of the big problems for AA was that ORD and DFW got a lot of the same connections; IAH would be similar. But the combined carrier would have less service from other hubs, so it would be somewhat different. Would it be enough different? That's a hard question - and one reason I think 2 flights to EZE are probably enough, at least for now.

Ok, AA probably did have DFW and MIA compete for its ORD connecting traffic but with IAH the same problem exists. It also doesn't change the geographic problem that ORD is a wonderful gateway to Asia but a lousy one for South America, the east coast is far better. When UA declared chapter 11 bankruptcy and had to return some 767's the first route it gave up, ORD to EZE. Even UA is telling you that was the route they would give up first.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-13 06:55:44 and read 10223 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 103):
Ok, AA probably did have DFW and MIA compete for its ORD connecting traffic but with IAH the same problem exists.

Yes - as it does with IAD and EWR. That's (again) why I'm not sure that more than two flights to EZE make sense.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 103):
When UA declared chapter 11 bankruptcy and had to return some 767's the first route it gave up, ORD to EZE. Even UA is telling you that was the route they would give up first.

Yes and no. There was also an opportunity cost issue. Let's say that every European route made $75,000 per flight and every deep South America route made $100,000 per flight. UA had to get rid of 2 763s. Where should they have come from? The answer is South America - even though the South America flights weren't the worst performers. Why? Because in the time it takes to go to and from South America (and sit there for 12+ hours), the same airplane can operate two TATL flights, making $150,000.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 103):
OK, Argentina isn't the UK or Japan but service to Berlin and Barcelona could be done from both.

Why isn't UA in TXL today?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 103):
752 fly very confortably between IAH and Newark.

You are being ridiculous - you knew darn well what I meant.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-13 08:25:03 and read 10133 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 104):
Why isn't UA in TXL today?

Probably because they are big into FRA, LH main hub. UA doesn't fly to smaller European cities and there smallest international plane is a 767, so that eliminates lots of cities flown to by 757's by other airlines.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-13 08:29:30 and read 10127 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 105):
Probably because they are big into FRA, LH main hub. UA doesn't fly to smaller European cities and there smallest international plane is a 767, so that eliminates lots of cities flown to by 757's by other airlines.

 

The 752 cannot operate IAD-TXL.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2010-05-13 13:17:41 and read 9976 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
LAX to Central America

Speaking about the new variable called [UA/CO], CO LAX-SAL 3x weekly was active during the summer of 2009.
SAL, SJO and GUA are currently getting non-stop services out of LAX on TA and sustained by the code-share cooperation provided by UA.




.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 37):
COR-U.S. market is over 75% to Miami.

CM PTY-COR is surely contributing with traffic to Miami through PTY.

Regards.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-13 15:32:19 and read 9900 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
752 cannot operate IAD-TXL.

The question was why UA doesn't fly to TXL, not because a 757 cannot fly it. UA and LH fly 4 or 5 daily IAD to FRA flights, so it doesn't really need an IAD to TXL flight.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-13 15:58:05 and read 9853 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 108):
The question was why UA doesn't fly to TXL, not because a 757 cannot fly it.

You were the one who brought up 757s...

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 105):
that eliminates lots of cities flown to by 757's by other airlines.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: love2009iah
Posted 2010-05-13 17:44:06 and read 9788 times.

What are the chances of UA CO starting direct services from from the following city pairs:

IAH-MIA-SDQ

PUJ

POP

STI

I think this will be a killer routes and big time competition to AA, DL & Spirit. What do you guys thing

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: CODC10
Posted 2010-05-13 21:00:25 and read 9696 times.

Quoting love2009iah (Reply 110):
IAH-MIA-SDQ

0%.

Quoting love2009iah (Reply 110):
PUJ

CO has tried IAH-PUJ, it wasn't very successful, but it certainly could return. Maybe 35-40% chance of it happening. MIA-PUJ, close to nil.

Quoting love2009iah (Reply 110):
POP

IAH-POP, probably around 10%. CO does well with EWR-POP, but the market to the Caribbean originating west of the Mississippi is very, very small.

MIA-POP, no way.

Quoting love2009iah (Reply 110):
STI

CO left STI in 2008. The EWR flight had highly variable loads and generally low yields. At major holiday periods (Christmas/Easter) the flight was hugely successful, and CO operated 757-300/767-400ER/777-200ER on busy days. The rest of the time, the flight was the weakest of CO's Dominican portfolio.

I can see EWR-STI coming back at some point, but Houston, probably no chance of that. STI-MIA is AA's domain.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: GlobalCabotage
Posted 2010-05-14 08:28:33 and read 9557 times.

All of the DL supporters here claim that DTW is the best place for Asia to South America connections and can support flights to LIM (which failed miserably at DFW on AA).

If DTW is the perfect location, then wouldn't a combined UA/CO make ORD a Latin America / Asia connecting point? Geographically, it is next to DTW. Traffice wise, ORD has much more O&D (and businesses contracts).

Since CO will be calling the shots, I can see ORD getting 787 serviced to NGO, KIX, ICN, and possibly MNL and TPE. I also see EZE coming back to connect to this.

ORD-EZE is very seasonal but could be year round if used as a connecting point to Asia. UA even flew a 747 for a few days during December a few years ago.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-14 11:23:55 and read 9425 times.

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 112):
All of the DL supporters here claim that DTW is the best place for Asia to South America connections and can support flights to LIM (which failed miserably at DFW on AA).

If DTW is the perfect location, then wouldn't a combined UA/CO make ORD a Latin America / Asia connecting point? Geographically, it is next to DTW. Traffice wise, ORD has much more O&D (and businesses contracts).

UA/CO should not worry so much about which hub to desginate for Brazil/ Asia but use all their hubs. GRU to NRT could be done over Houston, Newark or IAD. ORD is terrible for Latin America, teh only point ti be served viably nonstop daily is Sao Paulo.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-14 12:00:21 and read 9394 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 113):
ORD is terrible for Latin America, teh only point ti be served viably nonstop daily is Sao Paulo.

Or PTY if UA/CO keeps feeding CM's hub.
BTW, MEX, GDL, MTY and CUN are in Latinamerica.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: AADC10
Posted 2010-05-14 12:24:29 and read 9367 times.

I do not see the Latin America routes changing much with the combined CO/UA. Some flight from IAD might be reduced or made seasonal but UA has never been strong in Latin America anyway There is a chance that IAH may serve new smaller destinations Latin America but not for a few years. Brazil is special to Tilton since he used to live there and when to high school there so it may get special treatment.

The Pacific will probably not change much either except for some possible new connections to GUM.

The changes will be in Europe but that is for another thread.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-14 15:23:28 and read 9244 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 114):
Or PTY if UA/CO keeps feeding CM's hub.
BTW, MEX, GDL, MTY and CUN are in Latinamerica.

COPA has done wonders with its " hub of the Americas " in Panama but traffic to Asia isn't a prime concern. No airline flies nonstop to Tokyo or other Main Asian city from PTY.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: love2009iah
Posted 2010-05-14 18:41:48 and read 9157 times.

Why MIA to SDQ STI POP PUJ have no change at all? The local market is big plus they can bring connecting pax from DEN ORD IAH.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-14 19:44:26 and read 9102 times.

Quoting love2009iah (Reply 117):
Why MIA to SDQ STI POP PUJ have no change at all? The local market is big plus they can bring connecting pax from DEN ORD IAH.

1- MIA isn't a UA/CO hub. 2- UA/CO usually do not operate P2P flights outside their hubs. Those flights are quite odd in each airlines network. 3- Anybody who wants OnePass miles when flying between MIA and Dominican Republic (SDQ STI PUJ) can earn them flying CM via PTY.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: A330243
Posted 2010-05-15 12:05:58 and read 8862 times.

Todos los partidarios DL aqu

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
The merger adds three daily flights and zero destinations to CO's already extensive network. Whether or not CO grows in the region is certainly a question, but the merger doesn't add much and I would reason to say that CO would go on the same LatAm path regardless of the merger.

Everyone understands that.....I think that what the merger will do is allow the new United to leverage CO's strong route network and brand in Latin America. It is likely that you will see UA try to augment flights to some key markets already served from IAH, with additonal frequencies from the old united hubs at LAX and to a smaller extent ORD.

On its own, the pre-merger United would not have been able to make many of these markets work from ORD or even LAX. With the pre-merger CO offering an extensive network of flights to Latin America from IAH, United will able to leverage the market presence and brand recognition in these markets to significantly beef up their Latin America operations from LAX, ORD and IAD.

It will not happen overnight, United will have to manage the rebranding from CO to UA. Once United becomes a solid brand in Latin America, then I think you will see them make a big push from LAX, ORD and IAD. In 5 years, I think you will see a much stronger route network from theses pre-merger United hubs to Latin America.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-15 15:35:44 and read 8778 times.

Quoting A330243 (Reply 119):

It will not happen overnight, United will have to manage the rebranding from CO to UA. Once United becomes a solid brand in Latin America, then I think you will see them make a big push from LAX, ORD and IAD. In 5 years, I think you will see a much stronger route network from theses pre-merger United hubs to Latin America.

Agreed about the timing. On the short time i only can see as i pointed out, SCL being operated and may be a new year-round flight to GIG (for Deep South America). Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires are well covered.
In 5 years, it might become more clear their internal decisions like the hub to South/Latin America, routes to develop and if they will focus to increase flights or just look on profitability.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: DCAjet
Posted 2010-05-15 17:01:07 and read 8704 times.

Quoting Aeroflot001 (Reply 79):
AA is probably the airline up to it. Would be interesting how they would handle catering at COR because although cordoba is the second biggest city in Argentina even AEP in Buenos Aires has the airport severly beat. At least the new terminal at COR did help a bit.

Hmm?

How do you think COPA, Lan Peru, and others, plus Cubana in the summer handle their catering out of COR?

You make it sound like COR is an airport in the middle of nowhere. There have been catering services in COR since the airport has been around. The fact that AR or AU nowadays load their catering out of AEP does not mean that there are no catering services in COR!

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-05-16 04:42:35 and read 8546 times.

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Reply 112):
Since CO will be calling the shots, I can see ORD getting 787 serviced to NGO, KIX, ICN, and possibly MNL and TPE. I also see EZE coming back to connect to this.




CO/UA have said who the CEO will be, but no other management appointments have been announced as far as I know. What makes you think that CO will be calling the shots?

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: eastern023
Posted 2010-05-17 10:30:27 and read 8289 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 120):
Agreed about the timing. On the short time i only can see as i pointed out, SCL being operated and may be a new year-round flight to GIG (for Deep South America). Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires are well covered.

Agree. Specially on deep south amerrican destinations all well covered. SCL could use IAH or even IAD (I'm even scared to say tag-on here) but why not.

Thanks for keeping this thread tru to its title: Latin America...

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2010-05-17 11:23:04 and read 8246 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 116):
COPA has done wonders with its " hub of the Americas " in Panama but traffic to Asia isn't a prime concern. No airline flies nonstop to Tokyo or other Main Asian city from PTY.

Mexico City and Sao Paulo are the Latin American cities sustaining direct services to Asia for the time being.
For those passengers traveling to Asia out of PTY, it´s likely easier for them the utilization of the code-share agreements and their connections through any other points like the US.

Regards.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: United787
Posted 2010-05-17 12:06:17 and read 8193 times.

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 92):
CO has the DNA to serve Latin America but they don't have the ideal hubs... IAH is NOT in the "flight path" of the majority of Latin traffic which originates on the east coast. IAH is ideal for central America and that is precisely where CO does very well (is the strongest US carrier).

But IAH is in the "flight path" of some major UA hubs, DEN, SFO and LAX and to some extent ORD so I do see IAH getting a boost of traffic to South America from the midwest, plains, rocky mountains and pacific coast regions. IAD is in the "flight path" of the majority of the upper east coast and EWR is NYC so between IAH, IAD & EWR, South America is pretty well covered. The only portion of the country that is not covered by UA to South America is the southeast and AA or DL have that taken care of!

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: kiwiandrew
Posted 2010-05-17 12:29:21 and read 8155 times.

If *A does bring on board the TA/AV combination will that increase the new UA/CO influence in Latin America ? Presumably codeshared services would increase , but I wonder whether it would also give UA/CO operated services a boost from AV pax who are currently more likely to choose DL ( due to the AV/DL frequent flyer link ) and presumably would switch a chunk of their US business across to UA/CO ?

On a related issue I also wonder whether we would see an increased mainline presence in MIA ( please note , I am not for one second suggesting that it would become a UA hub ... not a chance of that with AAs level of dominance and the fact that the last thing the UA/CO combo would need is yet another hub ) . If TA/AV came onboard with *A then I guess that would add UA/CO nonstop codeshare service to around 10 cities from MIA ( SJO GUA SAL MGA SAP TGU CTG MDE BOG BRQ CLO ) in addition to the existing codeshares on JJ services to MAO GIG GRU . Do you think that would warrant more mainline services from UA/CO hubs to MIA for connecting purposes ?

Exciting times ahead I think .

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-17 12:42:15 and read 8146 times.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 126):
If TA/AV came onboard with *A then I guess that would add UA/CO nonstop codeshare service to around 10 cities from MIA ( SJO GUA SAL MGA SAP TGU CTG MDE BOG BRQ CLO ) in addition to the existing codeshares on JJ services to MAO GIG GRU .

Well, when it comes to MIA, AV/TA could offer UA/CO quite much if they join Star. UA/CO (+US) would put the flights from their hubs and some important U.S. "focus" airports to MIA, while AV/TA (+JJ) takes care of plenty of Latinamerican destinations, thus making it a sort of Star Alliance hub.

IMHO, This issue with AV/TA prescence in MIA is actually one of the things that favour AV/TA over CM to join Star Alliance.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2010-05-17 13:11:54 and read 8104 times.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 126):
If TA/AV came onboard with *A then I guess that would add UA/CO nonstop codeshare service to around 10 cities from MIA ( SJO GUA SAL MGA SAP TGU CTG MDE BOG BRQ CLO )

TA bears the UA code in their flights out of MIA and heading to the Central American bound: SJO, MGA, SAL, SAP, TGU, RTB and GUA.
Same with US in selected flights, another member involved into Star Alliance.

Regards.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: eastern023
Posted 2010-05-20 09:12:54 and read 7789 times.

Back to the Tag ons
[quote=LipeGIG,reply=120]Agreed about the timing. On the short time i only can see as i pointed out, SCL being operated and may be a new year-round flight to GIG (for Deep South America). Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires are well covered. [/quote


Probably it will be IAH-SCL on 762 or via LIM. I still think tag on IAD-EZE-SCL on 777 would work.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-20 15:36:54 and read 7669 times.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 129):
Probably it will be IAH-SCL on 762 or via LIM. I still think tag on IAD-EZE-SCL on 777 would work.

IAH-SCL with B762 can work very well in my expectation.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-20 17:08:29 and read 7637 times.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 129):
Probably it will be IAH-SCL on 762 or via LIM. I still think tag on IAD-EZE-SCL on 777 would work

Lima is already operated by a 757 from IAH. SCL to IAH deserves its own 767 nonstop, but it could be a UA 763ER. There probably will be some 767 rotations as Continental 762ER could be flown on some UA European flights and UA 763ER flown on CAL Latin America flights. UA 767 prombably should have the BusinessFirst product and First only on 777 & 744's. UA's 744 will probably stay in Asia, Europe doesn't need anything bigger then a 777. The "new" United will have a strong three hub gateway strategy anchored in Houston, Newark and Dulles for Latin America.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-20 19:40:02 and read 7572 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 131):
UA's 744 will probably stay in Asia, Europe doesn't need anything bigger then a 777.

UA/CO can't just add up frequencies to GRU, GIG or EZE as it wants. It'll not be foolish to think that the B747-400 may be seen in those airports during Southamerican high-season.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-20 19:50:29 and read 7551 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 132):
UA/CO can't just add up frequencies to GRU, GIG or EZE as it wants.

I believe there are unused US-Argentina frequencies at the moment.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-21 04:02:34 and read 7454 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 132):
UA/CO can't just add up frequencies to GRU, GIG or EZE as it wants. It'll not be foolish to think that the B747-400 may be seen in those airports during Southamerican high-season.

Not to GRU, but they can to EZE and GIG.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 131):
UA 767 prombably should have the BusinessFirst product and First only on 777 & 744's. UA's 744 will probably stay in Asia, Europe doesn't need anything bigger then a 777. The "new" United will have a strong three hub gateway strategy anchored in Houston, Newark and Dulles for Latin America.

I disagree with you. UA 763 offers a superior product right now with 4 classes and a better C product. I would say that some routes, with premium demand, that now are being using CO equipment with 2 classes, could in fact take the potential additional revenue. Houston-Rio with the oil industry, for sure can produce some nice revenue if they offer F product. UA invested a lot to updated their 763.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-21 06:11:22 and read 7388 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 134):
I disagree with you. UA 763 offers a superior product right now with 4 classes and a better C product. I would say that some routes, with premium demand, that now are being using CO equipment with 2 classes, could in fact take the potential additional revenue. Houston-Rio with the oil industry, for sure can produce some nice revenue if they offer F product. UA invested a lot to updated their 763.

The only market in South America that has a true First Class market is Brazil. Argentina and Chile's flag airlines stopped theri own First Classes years ago and offer Business Classas their only premuim class. Rotating some UA 763ER through Continental routes to GRU and GIG would be great. Then CAL 762ER could operate some UA routes where the 763 is too much plane. Interesting times we are in.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2010-05-21 08:03:00 and read 7323 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 134):
Houston-Rio with the oil industry, for sure can produce some nice revenue if they offer F product. UA invested a lot to updated their 763.

That'll probably be the 1st UA/CO route to be flown by B767-300ER and being an IAH route does help to upgrade the aircraft.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-21 09:58:16 and read 7258 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 136):
That'll probably be the 1st UA/CO route to be flown by B767-300ER and being an IAH route does help to upgrade the aircraft.

IAH-GIG demands something more. The 763 is not an increase over the B764 unless UA manages to also add IAD-GIG or EWR-GIG with B762
I see IAH-GIG as a potential B772 route

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 135):
The only market in South America that has a true First Class market is Brazil. Argentina and Chile's flag airlines stopped theri own First Classes years ago and offer Business Classas their only premuim class.

Agree, but AA runs a very nice F class operation to EZE with 4 daily flights, 64 daily seats.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: OP3000
Posted 2010-05-21 10:06:06 and read 7253 times.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 126):
Do you think that would warrant more mainline services from UA/CO hubs to MIA for connecting purposes ?

Yes, it would give them the chance to add more mainline frequencies to EWR, IAD, IAH and/or ORD.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: scorpy
Posted 2010-05-21 11:43:41 and read 7198 times.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 138):
Yes, it would give them the chance to add more mainline frequencies to EWR, IAD, IAH and/or ORD.

I also think the new UA should be able to support a LAX-MIA route. This is an important business route that AA has it itself. maybe 2x 739ER or something like that.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: C010T3
Posted 2010-05-21 12:13:32 and read 7172 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 137):
IAH-GIG demands something more. The 763 is not an increase over the B764 unless UA manages to also add IAD-GIG or EWR-GIG with B762

I think that what he meant is that UA's 763 would be more premium than CO's 764, because it offers F.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: CALPSAFltSkeds
Posted 2010-05-21 12:54:18 and read 7140 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 137):
I see IAH-GIG as a potential B772 route

The 772A is within 300 nm or the range of the 764ER. Could we see a seasonal swap out between EWR-European and IAH-GIG/EZE routes? With only a 15 minute difference between flying times north and south, the range may not be an issue when you compare a 764ER route like ATH-EWR, with an 11:00 block time vs. EZE-IAH at 10:35.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-21 15:11:19 and read 7092 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 140):
I think that what he meant is that UA's 763 would be more premium than CO's 764, because it offers F.

Yes it offers F , but i believe will a smaller C and Y cabins. Better to see the CO 764 being upgraded to 6F 42C or they considering the 772.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 138):
Yes, it would give them the chance to add more mainline frequencies to EWR, IAD, IAH and/or ORD.

MIA and MCO are markets they really need to cover better if they are looking to Latin America.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 141):
The 772A is within 300 nm or the range of the 764ER. Could we see a seasonal swap out between EWR-European and IAH-GIG/EZE routes? With only a 15 minute difference between flying times north and south, the range may not be an issue when you compare a 764ER route like ATH-EWR, with an 11:00 block time vs. EZE-IAH at 10:35.

I would say that if they even consider the 772A would be a nice addition as there's market for it.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: dcajet
Posted 2010-05-21 17:54:45 and read 7025 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 135):
The only market in South America that has a true First Class market is Brazil. Argentina and Chile's flag airlines stopped theri own First Classes years ago and offer Business Classas their only premuim class. Rotating some UA 763ER through Continental routes to GRU and GIG would be great. Then CAL 762ER could operate some UA routes where the 763 is too much plane. Interesting times we are in.

I don't think so. Ask AA how well they do on their first class cabins from/to EZE.

No wonder MIA-EZE-MIA is AA's most profitable route on their network, worldwide.

Cheers,

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: OP3000
Posted 2010-05-21 18:29:01 and read 6989 times.

Quoting scorpy (Reply 139):

I also think the new UA should be able to support a LAX-MIA route. This is an important business route that AA has it itself. maybe 2x 739ER or something like that.

The addition of CO to the mix doesn't necessarily add much to the dynamics there - unless UA can really deliver on grabbing droves of the business market from the LAX area (ie. the entertainment industry, etc). The addition of JJ and possible AV, TA and CM to *A would actually do more for a potential LAX-MIA IMO. Even though AV/TA and CM already fly there a MIA connection could grab a significant amount of traffic.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 143):
No wonder MIA-EZE-MIA is AA's most profitable route on their network, worldwide.

Unlike Brazil and Chile, AA grabs most of the premium traffic originating from Argentina b/c of the local carrier's (Aerolineas) weakness among that crowd.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-21 20:25:00 and read 6944 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 143):
No wonder MIA-EZE-MIA is AA's most profitable route on their network, worldwide

Not only EZE-MIA but also EZE-JFK is a very good route for AA.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 144):
Unlike Brazil and Chile, AA grabs most of the premium traffic originating from Argentina b/c of the local carrier's (Aerolineas) weakness among that crowd.

Brazil in my view also provide good results to AA.

Any way, both markets can have a better presence from UA/CO specially because considering IAD and IAH, UA have the condition to offer more F service.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-22 06:45:16 and read 6853 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 143):
The only market in South America that has a true First Class market is Brazil. Argentina and Chile's flag airlines stopped theri own First Classes years ago and offer Business Classas their only premuim class. Rotating some UA 763ER through Continental routes to GRU and GIG would be great. Then CAL 762ER could operate some UA routes where the 763 is too much plane. Interesting times we are in.

I don't think so. Ask AA how well they do on their first class cabins from/to EZE.

No wonder MIA-EZE-MIA is AA's most profitable route on their network, worldwide.

Gee, why doesn't Delta then offer First Class to Tokyo or LHR ?

AA does do very well with their 777 with First to EZE but that doesn't mean the market very isn't limited. AA offers the only First Class service to Miami and JFK. LAN offers a very good BIZ class in those markets too. AF, BA and LH offer First Class to EZE too.

First Class can be offered to any market worldwide but some airline decided its not worth the effort to do and have a J class very close to First. Since TAM is teh only South American airline with First Class is why I made that statement about Brazil being teh only First Class market on South America, AM, AV, LAN & AR no longer ofer First Class.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: dcajet
Posted 2010-05-22 08:06:34 and read 6807 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 146):
Gee, why doesn't Delta then offer First Class to Tokyo or LHR ?

AA does do very well with their 777 with First to EZE but that doesn't mean the market very isn't limited. AA offers the only First Class service to Miami and JFK. LAN offers a very good BIZ class in those markets too. AF, BA and LH offer First Class to EZE too.

First Class can be offered to any market worldwide but some airline decided its not worth the effort to do and have a J class very close to First. Since TAM is teh only South American airline with First Class is why I made that statement about Brazil being teh only First Class market on South America, AM, AV, LAN & AR no longer ofer First Class.

1. Because Delta does not have F in its bag of tricks

2. I did not say the F market to EZE is not limited. Isn't it limited to ANY destination in the world by its very nature? But your claim that Brazil is the only F market in South America is not, imo, correct. You are confusing the sheer market size of Brazil with market mix. The same airlines that fly to both countries (AF/AA with its 777/BA/LH/UA and Tam et al) offer the same product in both markets. The fact that Tam has first class on its widebodies is not enough claim to base your statement on.

Now, if you were to say that Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires are the only markets in the region that can support FC profitably, then we are talking.

AR not offering F is not a indicator of anything. Until AR gets its act together and gets back to a modicum of its former self, most frequent travelers - the bread and butter of any airline profitable revenue mix - would not take AR even in coach.

Cheers,

[Edited 2010-05-22 08:09:40]

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-22 15:33:56 and read 6714 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 147):
did not say the F market to EZE is not limited. Isn't it limited to ANY destination in the world by its very nature? But your claim that Brazil is the only F market in South America is not, imo, correct. You are confusing the sheer market size of Brazil with market mix. The same airlines that fly to both countries (AF/AA with its 777/BA/LH/UA and Tam et al) offer the same product in both markets. The fact that Tam has first class on its widebodies is not enough claim to base your statement on.

Now, if you were to say that Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires are the only markets in the region that can support FC profitably, then we are talking.

Its the size of the Sao Paulo market that led TAM to offer First Class. EZE & GRU show they are the FC markets in that part of teh world. FC by its nature is small, and smaller today then ever as many airlines have excellent J classes. Certain cities in Developed countries( all over the world) have large First Class markets, none are in Latin America. There are many reasons for limited FC in Latin America but one thing is for sure, many on teh ground amenities available at certain US, European and Asian airports are not available South America where "on the ground" infrastructure is more basic, and I mean that at GRU and EZE.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-22 18:21:18 and read 6641 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 147):
Now, if you were to say that Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires are the only markets in the region that can support FC profitably, then we are talking.

I would include Rio de Janeiro (more) and Santiago on the list. Specially Rio can work very well as it's working for TAM with First Class service to CDG, JFK and soon FRA (as well as from GIG with one stop thru Sao Paulo).

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-22 19:52:59 and read 6578 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 149):
I would include Rio de Janeiro (more) and Santiago on the list.

If that's the case, why don't GIG and SCL see more AA 772 service? The capacity of the 772 and 763 as AA configures them is pretty close (about 25 seats different), and AA has plenty of 772s.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-05-23 05:05:33 and read 6478 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 143):
No wonder MIA-EZE-MIA is AA's most profitable route on their network, worldwide.




When has AA ever released those figures or said that? Only a few insiders at AA would have that info, None of them would post that info on A.net.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-23 06:24:29 and read 6440 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 150):
If that's the case, why don't GIG and SCL see more AA 772 service? The capacity of the 772 and 763 as AA configures them is pretty close (about 25 seats different), and AA has plenty of 772s.

I can only say that AA wont see what JJ see. The crieteria to allocate a plane is probably based on the previous seasons performance. I'm sure AA904/905 (MIA-GIG-MIA) would be a good performer for AA on First Class but why they don't try ? I don't know.
At least 25% of the Brazilian millionaires lives in Rio, as well as there's many corporations with HQ in the city, and many customers that use to fly F visit Rio: authorities, wealthy people, celebrities, singers, CEO's, Main speakers for conferences...

UA/CO has a great advantage: Oil Industry.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: DCAJet
Posted 2010-05-23 07:00:52 and read 6406 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 151):
When has AA ever released those figures or said that? Only a few insiders at AA would have that info, None of them would post that info on A.net.

Bob, if you want to believe that or not , up to you. Not everything we know about airlines has to be released with their annual or quarterly figures, or PR spin. If you are connected with AA, and in the LatAm region, then you know what I posted is a fact. And another one for you: MAD-EZE is IB's most profitable long haul city pair in their network.

Cheers,

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-23 07:03:05 and read 6410 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 150):
If that's the case, why don't GIG and SCL see more AA 772 service? The capacity of the 772 and 763 as AA configures them is pretty close (about 25 seats different), and AA has plenty of 772s

AA does have 47 777, the demands on that fleet are expanding with new service to Asia from Chicago to Peking. LAN and AA are OW partners with LAN offering " Super Business Class", the Chillian premium passengers have a good national airline with no First Class. Few interbational flights to Chile offer First these days, Air France does from CDG and Swiss may if it still flies to SCL through GRU. TAM offers First on its 777 from GRU to SCL for connection in GRU to Europe. IB only offers Business on its A340's.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-05-23 08:03:50 and read 6378 times.

Quoting DCAJet (Reply 153):
Quoting DCAJet (Reply 153):
Bob, if you want to believe that or not , up to you. Not everything we know about airlines has to be released with their annual or quarterly figures, or PR spin. If you are connected with AA, and in the LatAm region, then you know what I posted is a fact. And another one for you: MAD-EZE is IB's most profitable long haul city pair in their network.




Since you seem to have avoided the issue, how do know those to be true? Please be specific as to revenue and costs.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-23 08:10:26 and read 6375 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 155):
Since you seem to have avoided the issue, how do know those to be true? Please be specific as to revenue and costs.

Well, as I think you well know, people are not necessarily at liberty to describe in specific detail the "revenue and costs" of given flights for given airlines. That sort of information would be highly proprietary.

Nonetheless, what he says is absolutely true - whether you want to believe it or not: MIA-EZE is, indeed, generally one of AA's strongest financial performers.

As he said - nobody is putting a gun to your head and saying you must take this as gospel. You can believe it or not - that's obviously up to you.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: OP3000
Posted 2010-05-23 10:05:37 and read 6313 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 149):
I would include Rio de Janeiro (more) and Santiago on the list. Specially Rio can work very well as it's working for TAM with First Class service to CDG, JFK and soon FRA (as well as from GIG with one stop thru Sao Paulo).

I think the distinction is that EZE and GRU have significantly more First Class demand originating in the USA than SCL and GIG, especially out of MIA which is where most of the flights originate. MIA-SCL, DFW-SCL and MIA-GIG, JFK-GIG have demand for First, but most of it originates in Chile/Brazil where the local premium customers prefer flying JJ and LA (respectively) over AA.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-23 10:34:48 and read 6277 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 154):
AA does have 47 777, the demands on that fleet are expanding with new service to Asia from Chicago to Peking.

Yes, although there are plenty of 777s flying routes to Europe (and other South America routes, for that matter) where the 763 would be perfectly capable. The lack of 777 service to SCL is not for lack of aircraft but rather because the F-configured aircraft make more money elsewhere.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-05-23 11:24:38 and read 6246 times.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 157):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 149):
I would include Rio de Janeiro (more) and Santiago on the list. Specially Rio can work very well as it's working for TAM with First Class service to CDG, JFK and soon FRA (as well as from GIG with one stop thru Sao Paulo).

I think the distinction is that EZE and GRU have significantly more First Class demand originating in the USA than SCL and GIG, especially out of MIA which is where most of the flights originate. MIA-SCL, DFW-SCL and MIA-GIG, JFK-GIG have demand for First, but most of it originates in Chile/Brazil where the local premium customers prefer flying JJ and LA (respectively) over AA

I agree but when we look into UA/CO, i believe there's room for First class to GIG considering the oil industry. And it's a kind of industry 85% based US-Brazil (Brazil Oil & Gas industry is a recent development with the exception of the giant Petrobras and now include players like Barra Oil & Gas, Odebrecht Oil & Gas, Queiroz Galvao Oil & Gas, OGX, and a few more to come). CO IAH-GIG can't deal with the booming demand and does not offer F service.
And it's not that, i agree that in 2005 there was no room for F to GIG, but now, in 2010, and looking ahead, it's time to add F to GIG.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-05-23 11:58:34 and read 6220 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 156):
Nonetheless, what he says is absolutely true - whether you want to believe it or not: MIA-EZE is, indeed, generally one of AA's strongest financial performers.

As he said - nobody is putting a gun to your head and saying you must take this as gospel. You can believe it or not - that's obviously up to you.




MIA-EZE might very well be AA's strongest financial performers. My point is that no one posting here on A.net knows that for sure about any airline and its profitable routes. They may speculate and make very educated guesses. There are some very knowledgeable people on A. net, but they not know these kinds of things for sure.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: commavia
Posted 2010-05-23 12:07:10 and read 6202 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 160):
My point is that no one posting here on A.net knows that for sure about any airline and its profitable routes.

How can you be so sure?

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 160):
They may speculate and make very educated guesses.

Or they may share their very own, very real first-hand experiences with these sorts of things.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 160):
There are some very knowledgeable people on A. net, but they not know these kinds of things for sure.

How do you know that people here on A.net don't work in positions at AA and/or other airlines where they deal with network planning, revenue and yield management, etc.?

Whether you believe it or not, I actually know for a fact that there are people with quite intimate knowledge of such subjects who contribute here on A.net. I'm certainly not one of them, but they're out there, and they know a whole lot about this stuff.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-05-23 16:03:01 and read 6112 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 158):
Yes, although there are plenty of 777s flying routes to Europe (and other South America routes, for that matter) where the 763 would be perfectly capable. The lack of 777 service to SCL is not for lack of aircraft but rather because the F-configured aircraft make more money elsewhere.

While Santiago probably should have a First Class service from AA, SCL can be flown by a 767 but all Asian AA flights require 777's (except LAX to NRT). Since AA retired the A300 it has been using the 767 heavily in the Caribean. Most AA 767 markets today don't need a First and Business Class since many are short & medium haul. With Lie-Flat Business class on 767 AA made a decision to eliminate First when they upgraded their products a few years ago.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-05-23 16:20:01 and read 6096 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 162):
While Santiago probably should have a First Class service from AA, SCL can be flown by a 767 but all Asian AA flights require 777's (except LAX to NRT).

AA uses no more than fifteen of its 47 772s on routes that require the 772's range.

AA's equipment choice indicates that SCL "needs" a F cabin less than a plethora of other cities.

Topic: RE: The New United (UA+CO) And Latin America
Username: eastern023
Posted 2010-05-25 11:25:53 and read 5849 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 163):
AA's equipment choice indicates that SCL "needs" a F cabin less than a plethora of other cities.

Agreed. If it made sense, AA would have brought back the 777 to SCL a while back. I don’t see it as super necessary, just to get AA First product. Now, if AA could only freshen up the Y cabin on their 763 into SCL, adding personal screens, etc. The minute United returns to SCL I will dump AA. I do not mind paying a little extra, but I do not see DL as an option.


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