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Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: sxb
Posted 2010-05-28 10:55:42 and read 13626 times.

Link in French: http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2010...are-l-abandon-de-l-avion-cargo.php

Air France will announce on Monday that they will no longer have a dedicated cargo fleet but use the passenger planes instead. All related staff and services will be transferred to the passenger activity.

2 of the 5 remaining cargo planes will be returned to ILFC in 2013.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: AR385
Posted 2010-05-28 11:17:25 and read 13474 times.

Quoting sxb (Thread starter):
All related staff and services will be transferred to the passenger activity.

I thought the point for closing the operation was to cut costs. How will the above accomplish that goal? Why keep the employees if you are getting rid of the aircraft?

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: Stitch
Posted 2010-05-28 11:33:29 and read 13325 times.

So Martinair will be handling all of the AF/KL Group's cargo ops?

FX will surely take the rest of AF's 777 Freighters.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: migair54
Posted 2010-05-28 11:39:03 and read 13292 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
So Martinair will be handling all of the AF/KL Group's cargo ops?

Not exactly related with this post but, is it normal for KLM Cargo plane to use Martinair flight number??

the other day I was waiting for my take off in NBO and a KLM B744 was on my side waiting as well but they were Martinair 85, I think they were going further south, don´t know where exactly.....

If AF is going to close dedicate cargo will they open some new routes were they have cargo ops only???

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: petertenthije
Posted 2010-05-28 11:43:38 and read 13256 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Not exactly related with this post but, is it normal for KLM Cargo plane to use Martinair flight number??

The last few months KLM has leased their 747ERFs to Martinair since KLM had no need for them in the current economy. This made it possible for Martinair to park their less efficient 747Fs. You will find that on the KLM Cargo 747s there are small operated by Martinair titles.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: OzGlobal
Posted 2010-05-28 12:10:20 and read 13072 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Quoting sxb (Thread starter):
All related staff and services will be transferred to the passenger activity.

I thought the point for closing the operation was to cut costs. How will the above accomplish that goal? Why keep the employees if you are getting rid of the aircraft?

AF is a national icon in France; Firing people for cost saving is EXTREMELY ill viewed in France. AF cannot politically afford to do it even if it appears to make immediate economic sense. It will probably cost them less overall to keep the people!

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: LJ
Posted 2010-05-28 12:22:11 and read 12931 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Not exactly related with this post but, is it normal for KLM Cargo plane to use Martinair flight number??

All former KL freight routes have both a KL and MP flightnumber.

Quoting sxb (Thread starter):

2 of the 5 remaining cargo planes will be returned to ILFC in 2013.

And what will happen with the other 3?

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-05-28 12:43:48 and read 12784 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 6):
Quoting sxb (Thread starter):

2 of the 5 remaining cargo planes will be returned to ILFC in 2013.

And what will happen with the other 3?

Aren't these already with FedEx?

Apart from the 772s, there are also 744Fs (incl. BCFs) which are operated by AF Cargo. What will happen to these?

JAL did much the same thing (ending its dedicated cargo operation) not too long ago; I wonder if other airlines will follow suit?

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: sxb
Posted 2010-05-28 12:55:53 and read 12688 times.

It's not really clear regarding the 5 planes,
It seems that 3 are 744 ERF leased from ILFC and 2 are 777 F owned by AF.
IIRC the 2 777 have been sold and I would suppose that the 3 744 will be returned to ILFC (might be a mistake from the newspaper when they talk about 2 planes being returned).

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: hotplane
Posted 2010-05-29 06:42:19 and read 9992 times.

This must of been in the pipeline for a while, so why take delivery of the 777Fs?

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2010-05-29 08:14:27 and read 9182 times.

Quoting hotplane (Reply 9):
This must of been in the pipeline for a while, so why take delivery of the 777Fs?

I'm thinking that AF didn't anticipate the sharp cargo drop during the recession. I'm also thinking that AF's cargo costs are not competitive with KLM/Martainair.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
It will probably cost them less overall to keep the people!

FX, EK, and others thank them. Long term this means slower growth for AF as they pay of debt accrued keeping on the people. Good for the employees, bad for AF's long term competitiveness.

Lightsaber

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: United787
Posted 2010-05-29 08:16:20 and read 9164 times.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
AF is a national icon in France; Firing people for cost saving is EXTREMELY ill viewed in France. AF cannot politically afford to do it even if it appears to make immediate economic sense. It will probably cost them less overall to keep the people!

That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: CM767
Posted 2010-05-29 08:34:50 and read 8958 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...


My friend you should get to know France a little bit, you will be amazed.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: goldorak
Posted 2010-05-29 09:40:04 and read 8376 times.

Quoting CM767 (Reply 12):
My friend you should get to know France a little bit, you will be amazed.

Interesting. I'd be curious to know    

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: behramjee
Posted 2010-05-29 09:50:37 and read 8249 times.

so what will happen to the current B 777F fleet and the remaining ones on order?

If they want to sell all their B 777Fs, I'm sure either EK, QR or EY would be greatly interested in purchasing them for a decent price.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: JAL
Posted 2010-05-29 10:00:57 and read 8155 times.

What would happen to their order for 777-Fs?

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: Stitch
Posted 2010-05-29 11:09:31 and read 7668 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 14):
so what will happen to the current B 777F fleet and the remaining ones on order?

FX has already agreed to take AF's last two birds once they complete assembly and I imagine AF will shift the three they operate to them, as well. FX appears to adore the 77F and is taking as many as they can get their hands on as fast as they can.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: TwinOtter4Ever
Posted 2010-05-29 11:10:09 and read 7664 times.

AC dumped their separate cargo fleet as well, however they were able to carry most or all of their cargo aboard passenger flights with the 777s due to the great carrying capacity. This could help off set low passenger numbers on certain flights...I'm not sure If AF has this in mind or are they jump off loading the whole thing?..

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: LJ
Posted 2010-05-29 11:41:19 and read 7519 times.

Quoting TwinOtter4Ever (Reply 17):
AC dumped their separate cargo fleet as well,

So did JAL...

I reckon AF will use its partners for dedicated cargo flights when necessary.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: varig md-11
Posted 2010-05-29 12:12:56 and read 7399 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...

OzGlobal is right, this comment is not screwed up at all.
The French remember the billions of € (or French Francs better) that AF cost us in the past when they needed to be salvaged all the time, therefore people couldn't really understand massive layoffs especially in dire times

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2010-05-29 13:26:27 and read 7231 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...

It's not screwed up at all. Air France. as a responsible employer, will try every other option before redundancies, such as short time working, job sharing, voluntary redundacies etc etc. Firing people is an easy option when there are other ways to achieve the necessary savings - most other companies are either A) too damn lazy to look for them, or B) just using an economic slowdown to get rid of people they dont like.

I applaud AF for looking for ways to save other than just sacking people. People do have children to feed....

Quoting CM767 (Reply 12):
My friend you should get to know France a little bit, you will be amazed.

Yes, Amazed that the French have a social conscience and dont always take the easy way out. There are lots of things about the French system that people find objectionable (like the love of striking), but surely this shouldnt be one of them.

AF will of course, if it has absolutely no choice, seek redundancies, but it is never the first option like in some other airlines.

Finally, on the subject of binning the cargo operation - then good!! It is a financial dog at the moment, contributing a 500 million Euro loss alone last year. It drags the rest of AF down.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: GothamSpotter
Posted 2010-05-29 19:48:35 and read 6779 times.

According to the Air France site, they currently operate 11 cargo aircraft: 1 747-200F, 2 777F and 8 747-400ERF.

http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/fleet/cargo-fleet/

Were there already plans to unload some of these? Why does the article only mention 5 planes?

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: airbuseric
Posted 2010-05-29 20:28:11 and read 6719 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 7):
JAL did much the same thing (ending its dedicated cargo operation) not too long ago; I wonder if other airlines will follow suit?

So far just announced. JL is still flying the freighters until late October.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: ebj1248650
Posted 2010-05-29 20:31:54 and read 6714 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...

If your national culture frowns on such things, your company will be frowned on if you lay off people. In Japan, at the height of the economic downturn, it was reported that the layoffs that took place were the first ever for Japanese companies. Getting rid of airplanes is apparently more acceptable that getting rid of people. And the operational savings are likely a lot higher when it's airplanes that go.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-05-29 20:36:23 and read 6694 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while!

I agree that it is a screwed up way of doing business, but I don't doubt that is the way things are done in France, or Japan for that matter. Even the US is not completely clean in such matters.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
FX appears to adore the 77F and is taking as many as they can get their hands on as fast as they can.

Yeah, it seems that Fed Ex is more than happy to be getting more of them sooner.

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2010-05-29 20:40:19 and read 6874 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
FX has already agreed to take AF's last two birds once they complete assembly and I imagine AF will shift the three they operate to them, as well. FX appears to adore the 77F and is taking as many as they can get their hands on as fast as they can.

Does AF lose $$$ in these transactions or does FX pick up the full tab since there aren't too many 777F available as it is?

Topic: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: 413X3
Posted 2010-05-29 23:49:11 and read 6669 times.

Quoting TwinOtter4Ever (Reply 17):
AC dumped their separate cargo fleet as well

What cargo fleet? You mean the ACMI World Airways MD-11Fs?

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: jolau1701
Posted 2010-05-30 00:25:41 and read 6737 times.

Come to think if it, are there any passenger airlines in the US that has a separate cargo operation?

I think the NW did it at least until the merger with DL was complete.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: art
Posted 2010-05-30 01:30:05 and read 6592 times.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 20):
Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...

It's not screwed up at all. Air France. as a responsible employer, will try every other option before redundancies, such as short time working, job sharing, voluntary redundacies etc etc.

I would say that a right to job security was deeply ingrained in the French psyche until quite recently and legislation reflects that (extremely expensive for employers to terminate permanent employment contracts). Protection goes too far in many areas. I have heard of students striking because of the incompetence of their teachers, yet even though those teachers are patently incompetent, it is almost impossible to dismiss them. One of the results of over-protection is that to circumvent the draconian protection given to employees with permanent employment contracts, many employers will only offer posts on rolling temporary contracts which do not enjoy the same level of protection from termination. Ironically the quest for job security has resulted in a reduction in the level of job security on offer.

On the other hand, is it right that employees doing their jobs ably should live with the spectre of reduced hours and earnings or redundancy simply to maximise the return payable to investors?

I don't think France has got the balance right and I don't think the USA has got it right either. I don't think that the standard capitalistic model has got it right. I would prefer to see all company employees having a share in the stock of the company they work for ie be both investors and employees. Decisions taken to benefit investors at the cost of employees would then be mitigated for employees.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2010-05-30 02:11:03 and read 6499 times.

Quoting art (Reply 28):
. Decisions taken to benefit investors at the cost of employees would then be mitigated for employees.

Employees as shareholders would mean that they are owners of the company at the same time and would have to underwrite any necessity to reduce costs, even if that would mean the dismissal of employees. As an owner of my company for over 20 years now, i can only say to employees who want to become shareholers, welcome to reality, but think about the consequences before you sign the pact.

The labour laws of France are far from reality and have lead to the fact that is discussed here. AF has been obviously unable - unlike their biggest competitor Lufthansa Cargo - to have the right answers to the sudden and brutal downturn in cargo revenue. AF has been unable to reduce its cost in that business sector to a level that could be tolerated. In a way, AFs answer on the inability to keep their dedicated freighter fleet flying - is softened by the fact that they still have indirect access to main deck capacity through KL/MP. That is a small consolation. In direct comparison to LH - AF has lost out in a grand style, having to give up main deck freighters while LH is enyoing strong demand and cashing in on the upswing, .

For France as an industrial nation and exporter this is rather a desaster. For some shippers, the availability of main deck cargo services is an absolute necessity, be that for size of individual cargo or dangerous goods consignments restricted to CAO. It is not so that just one company - AF - is effectd by this. There will be many companies with increased costs for their exports, making France a bit more uncompetetive over their neighbours.

As a German, I could say merci beaucoup. As a freight forwarder I have to say that there is one company less on the market which will lead to rate increases

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-30 09:18:48 and read 5943 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
As a freight forwarder I have to say that there is one company less on the market which will lead to rate increases

Maybe I have a misunderstanding of how the business works - but how is going from a fleet of a dozen or so dedicated freight aircraft to carrying freight on hundreds of passenger aircraft flights going to decrease competition and increase rates?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
I thought the point for closing the operation was to cut costs. How will the above accomplish that goal? Why keep the employees if you are getting rid of the aircraft?

The cost cuts are in aircraft maintenance and operation. The aircrews either have to retrain and become certified on other aircraft or leave. The same with the maintenance people. Stopping new hires accomplishes the same thing as layoffs as far as overall labor costs.

The other AF Cargo employees will still be needed to do the same job as before. The only difference is rather than putting the freight on dedicated freight aircraft, the boxes go on passenger aircraft.

Nothing I've seen says AF is reducing cargo capacity or flexibility.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: Avianca
Posted 2010-05-30 09:54:44 and read 5830 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 30):
Maybe I have a misunderstanding of how the business works - but how is going from a fleet of a dozen or so dedicated freight aircraft to carrying freight on hundreds of passenger aircraft flights going to decrease competition and increase rates?

there is certain cargo that can only uplifted on Cargo Aircrafts...

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: 2175301
Posted 2010-05-30 10:06:23 and read 5777 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 30):
Maybe I have a misunderstanding of how the business works - but how is going from a fleet of a dozen or so dedicated freight aircraft to carrying freight on hundreds of passenger aircraft flights going to decrease competition and increase rates?

Unless the rules have changed in the last decade - Hazardous and dangerous cargo is not allowed on passenger planes.

A good chunk of cargo falls into those categories. Thus, any general freight shipper will now have less options for that kind of cargo; and less options usually means higher prices.

What is worse - is that the reduction of shipping options may impact shipping times as you cannot mix certain hazardous and dangerous cargo on even a cargo plane. For example (from personal experience) - you cannot ship paint and explosives on the same plane - (you would be surprised how many things are categorized as explosives - an airbag is an explosive device) on the same cargo plane. So if you need a quart of glyptal for repairs (a specialty paint used in electrical generators, transformers, and other industrial power equipment); and someone else needs an explosive tube tube plug (about the size of your little finger) - they cannot be shipped on the same plane at the same time - even if they are separated by the entire length of a 747 cargo bay.

Cargo freight companies work to sequence compatible cargo per load - and some companies are known (or used to be known) as reliable ones for quick shipment of certain classes or dangerous or hazardous cargo - while others might let your item sit for a week until they get enough of that type to make it worth making other cargo sit...

I even recall one overnight freight company that got our explosive plugs to the next airport - and then told us they had a cargo conflict on the next plane - and would have cargo conflicts for at least the next several days - and our stuff was going to have to sit... We ended up hiring a small jet to fly down to meet up with the cargo - while the owner of the company flew down to personally recover the cargo, and hand it over to the small jet pilot - so the explosives could be delivered ontime the next day (I think this cost us about an extra $6000 - which we had to absorb - on what should have just been a hundred dollar or so overnight shipping charge).

So, yes, the reduction of the number of dedicated freight companies can be costly - especially if you are in the business of shipping a hazardous or dangerous product that industrial or commercial plants may need for urgent equipment repairs.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: mindscape
Posted 2010-05-30 10:06:53 and read 5791 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
The labour laws of France are far from reality and have lead to the fact that is discussed here. AF has been obviously unable - unlike their biggest competitor Lufthansa Cargo - to have the right answers to the sudden and brutal downturn in cargo revenue. AF has been unable to reduce its cost in that business sector to a level that could be tolerated. In a way, AFs answer on the inability to keep their dedicated freighter fleet flying - is softened by the fact that they still have indirect access to main deck capacity through KL/MP. That is a small consolation. In direct comparison to LH - AF has lost out in a grand style, having to give up main deck freighters while LH is enyoing strong demand and cashing in on the upswing, .

Rather pompous way to say German's efficiency tops the French one... At the end, the company is restructuring, and if the returns of profit is to feed the belly of passengers planes like BA, instead of having a dedicated fleet like LH (which is also partnering with DHL), then so be it, and you are marginalizing too much the role of the merging cargo entity within the AFKL Group.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: 413X3
Posted 2010-05-30 12:35:22 and read 5569 times.

Quoting jolau1701 (Reply 27):
Come to think if it, are there any passenger airlines in the US that has a separate cargo operation?

I think the NW did it at least until the merger with DL was complete

Technically Alaska still has their 737-400F. I believe it's only a fleet of one though, so nothing huge. But that's it. Sad

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: ozglobal
Posted 2010-05-30 18:34:56 and read 5179 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
The labour laws of France are far from reality and have lead to the fact that is discussed here.

Maybe, but I work in a large French multinational with significant presence in Germany and I can tell you that our dealings with workers councils are protracted and often over things that would not be discussed in France. Germany is not necessarily any easier than France on these matters...

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: j0rdan
Posted 2010-05-30 19:32:35 and read 5061 times.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 26):
What cargo fleet? You mean the ACMI World Airways MD-11Fs?



AC canceled two orders for 777F's, I'm not sure if they still contract World Airways for cargo ops.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 34):
Technically Alaska still has their 737-400F. I believe it's only a fleet of one though, so nothing huge.



   + 5 combi's.


jordan

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-05-30 19:39:08 and read 5030 times.

Avianca, & 2175301

Thanks

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: sxb
Posted 2010-05-30 20:12:19 and read 4978 times.

Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 21):
According to the Air France site, they currently operate 11 cargo aircraft: 1 747-200F, 2 777F and 8 747-400ERF.

http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/fleet/cargo-fleet/

Were there already plans to unload some of these? Why does the article only mention 5 planes?

Looks like it's not up to date on AF website (they say that it's as of 03/31)

Looking at airfleets.net

The 742 cargo (F-GCBM) was sold to Midex Airlines with a new registration (A6-MDI) on 05/01.

Two of the eight 744 ERF have been sold :
- F-GISF to Cargolux (new reg LX-ZCV) on 04/20
- F-GIUE to Air Bridge Cargo (new reg VQ-BGY) on 05/01

Three are currently stored:
- F-GISA
- F-GISB
- F-GISE

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: ha763
Posted 2010-05-30 22:19:23 and read 4821 times.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 32):
Unless the rules have changed in the last decade - Hazardous and dangerous cargo is not allowed on passenger planes.

A lot of cargo that falls under dangerous goods regulations have been carried on passenger aircraft for as long as aircraft have been carrying cargo. The IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations have been around for over 50 years and has always covered dangerous goods on passenger and cargo aircraft

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2010-05-30 22:48:45 and read 4793 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 30):
Maybe I have a misunderstanding of how the business works - but how is going from a fleet of a dozen or so dedicated freight aircraft to carrying freight on hundreds of passenger aircraft flights going to decrease competition and increase rates?

The mis-understanding is, that the capacity in passenger jets has been there and has been used as well. The cut of the all cargo fleet is actually a reduction in capacity since there will be no simoultaneous increase in capacity available on pax a/c. In addition to that, AF will loose out in the future on all cargo that is main deck only.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 32):
Unless the rules have changed in the last decade - Hazardous and dangerous cargo is not allowed on passenger planes.

Transportation of dangerous goods has always been possible. However, there are certain items which are restricted to CAO. Also, there are certain items of which only a small quantity can be shipped on passenger aircraft, whereas a larger quantity is allowed on cargo aircraft. There may be companies oin the Paris region that no longer can ship viable quantities of their products by air eventually forcing them to relocate production.

Quoting mindscape (Reply 33):
Rather pompous way to say German's efficiency tops the French one... At the end, the company is restructuring, and if the returns of profit is to feed the belly of passengers planes like BA, instead of having a dedicated fleet like LH (which is also partnering with DHL), then so be it, and you are marginalizing too much the role of the merging cargo entity within the AFKL Group.

You would not believe how imporetant it is for some shippers and freight forwarders to work with airlines that can offer both main deck and lower deck capacity. Lower deck means that the height of a picece is limited to 160cm , just to mention one. I said before that the lower deck capacity of AF a/c has not bveen flying around empty, hence this move is actually a reduction in capacity. The market will soon find out whether this move will actually further decrease AFs market share in freight. The reduction in cost may ot lead to profitability since it comes along with a reduction in revenue at the same time.

OTH, this move will be good for LH but as well for the Gulf carriers who introduce main deck freighter capacity.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 35):
Germany is not necessarily any easier than France on these matters...

I haven't said that, but the result of the direct comparison speaks for itself. With LHCargo, the workers council has teamed up with the board and found a workable solution to tide LH Cargo over the recession. Short time work was an essential part of the measures taken. The difference between France and Germany seems to be that workers here are more realistic. Occupying a company that has not business will make things rather worse and taking management hostage would not happen here.

.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2010-05-30 23:12:46 and read 4750 times.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):

AF is a national icon in France; Firing people for cost saving is EXTREMELY ill viewed in France. AF cannot politically afford to do it even if it appears to make immediate economic sense. It will probably cost them less overall to keep the people!

Well, they can get rid of them through more palatable methods like voluntary early retirement with a bonus to sweeten the deal and plain, old attrition. And they will probably do that, as quietly as possible.

I keep hearing people gloat about how cargo is soooooooo much more profitable than passenger, but AF apparently doesn't agree.

It's a pity. The AF livery looks much better on a windowless fuselage.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2010-05-30 23:28:05 and read 4696 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
keep hearing people gloat about how cargo is soooooooo much more profitable than passenger, but AF apparently doesn't agree.

The right mix does it and the connectivity. Connectivty means the hundred thousands of options available to route connecting cargo through CDG. Without the main deck capacity available these options are far less and may even result in a drop of revenue cargo tonmiles flown on AF passenger aircraft when compared to the same period of the year before.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2010-05-30 23:52:49 and read 4626 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
I keep hearing people gloat about how cargo is soooooooo much more profitable than passenger, but AF apparently doesn't agree.

I think it has a lot to do with an airlines cost structure. Dedicated cargo ops cost money from equipment to infrastructure and certainly labor. Even Lufthansa the last real European major with a dedicated operation runs cargo as a separate business unit with its own employees and crews, something now AF-KL will be doing by leaving Martinair as the remaining full cargo operator in the group.

Closer to home look at Delta, they quickly shed the aging NW 747-200 Cargo flying which reportedly had been a loss making venture the last few years in the face of more efficient lower cost providers. (NW lost its huge DHL contract to 747-400F operator Polar Air).

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: LASoctoberB6
Posted 2010-05-30 23:59:31 and read 4614 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 18):
So did JAL...

So are they going to re-convert '47s like JA8906 back to a passenger version, or is that impossible or that they're just letting go of the aircraft(s)?

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-05-31 00:04:32 and read 4591 times.

Quoting LASoctoberB6 (Reply 44):
So are they going to re-convert '47s like JA8906 back to a passenger version, or is that impossible or that they're just letting go of the aircraft(s)?

It is possible I suppose, but very difficult and probably not worth the money and effort particularly for rather old aircraft. Even after it's done, those planes would be hauling around extra structural weight they don't need to carry pax.

It isn't like JAL needs any more capacity anyway.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: varig md-11
Posted 2010-05-31 00:29:41 and read 4533 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 43):
I think it has a lot to do with an airlines cost structure. Dedicated cargo ops cost money from equipment to infrastructure and certainly labor. Even Lufthansa the last real European major with a dedicated operation runs cargo as a separate business unit with its own employees and crews, something now AF-KL will be doing by leaving Martinair as the remaining full cargo operator in the group.

I agree.
I think a lot has been unsaid by AF management to prevent unions to make a scandal:
since AF/KL owns MP , which is abandoning pax flights and concentrating on cargo, MP will become the sole cargo metal operator for the AF/KL group.

MP is probably much leaner and less costly that the current AF cargo unit.
Also it has a logic within AF/KL group : HV for the low cost, MP for the cargo, AF/KL for mainstream.

HV low cost structure was considered for a while to be used as a replacement of some AF domestic links so as to fight U2 on equal bases.
But it can't be done till now because of a deal with unions.
For MP and cargo metal it might be easier....well at least till unions realize some MP cargo metal will take back some traffic at CDG!

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2010-05-31 00:34:36 and read 4512 times.

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 46):
For MP and cargo metal it might be easier....well at least till unions realize some MP cargo metal will take back some traffic at CDG!

well, then let's wait and see when the first MP cargo flight departs CDG on a route formerly served by AF main deck capacity. That could be fun.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2010-05-31 01:07:48 and read 4462 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Why keep the employees if you are getting rid of the aircraft?
Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
That is one of the most screwed up things I have heard anyone say on A-Net in a while! Surely the people of France can understand the need for layoffs in a slow economy...



The legal value of a working contract is very different in the Anglo-American-Israel world compared to Continental Europe. It is as much protected by law as property is, in many cases even higher. If it is a life time contract, this means life time unless there are some very well defined exceptions. And indeed, in these times people here understand a lot of savings but layoffs. Layoffs are considered to be the main reason for economic down turns - in times of crises companies, and especially companies with a good visibility, are expected to hire more people to get the economy up again. ( And it makes all sense of the world, since now is the time you can get GOOD people.

Yes, 100 layoffs would cost Air France more than 1000 salaries. French would perform the ultimate form of strike a French could imagine, they would fly BA.  

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2010-05-31 01:29:03 and read 4383 times.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 48):
If it is a life time contract, this means life time unless there are some very well defined exceptions. And indeed, in these times people here

There are no lifetime contracts in the private sector and the public sector will have to kiss that good bye as well. True is, that it would be a very costsly enterprise for AF to dismiss their staff, so the easy way of natural atrition and . if that's not enough - early retirement with a good cash padding is the way things are handled. Pretty much the same as what strong unions in the US like the UAW do.

The differen ce between the US and Europe is rather that the European unions operate more politically whereas in the US it is under the aspect "what is the best deal I can get for my members". US unions know that a company can pay their employees only when they get revenue in from customers, that is something European unions do not understand because their political ideology does not run on simple math.

.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2010-05-31 01:57:29 and read 4336 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 49):
There are no lifetime contracts in the private sector and the public sector will have to kiss that good bye as well.

I know that the private sector actively exploits the limits of the law, but fortunately these experimets are costly when it comes to court. And a lot of temporary contracts even are ruled to be illegal and converted to permanent ones. From own experience I can whatch which stretches the management of a a European Company that merged with a US one has to make to fullfil the requirements of the US top management and not to loose every trial with too high damage - firing an employee who was with the company for 25 years can easily cost up to 6 years of salary in compensation if done the wrong way...

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: LASoctoberB6
Posted 2010-05-31 02:01:12 and read 4321 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
It isn't like JAL needs any more capacity anyway.

Oh, that's right..

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2010-05-31 04:36:47 and read 4060 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
There will be many companies with increased costs for their exports, making France a bit more uncompetetive over their neighbours.

Aren't they bringing a lot of cargo to Hahn already now on trucks and put them into all the Aeroflot MD11 and other spotters dreams?

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2010-05-31 04:43:25 and read 4034 times.

I don't know if AF has interlining agreements with SU, I doubt that. They would have to pay SU eventually much more than the revenue AF can yield.

The purpose of the HHN truck hub is to consolidate and palletize the shipments from various origins and truck the ready prepacked pallets to CDG where they are loaded into the aircraft. That's cheaper to do out in the backwoods than in the peripherique of Paris.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: LJ
Posted 2010-05-31 08:50:26 and read 3722 times.

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 46):
MP will become the sole cargo metal operator for the AF/KL group.

Didn't Skyteam also had an idea about making it a global cargo alliance next to a global alliance for pax? Would be a grate way of saying your own dedicated cargo ops goodbye and using other (much lower) cost structure.....

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2010-05-31 14:02:25 and read 3466 times.

Yes, the Global Cargo Alliance was a project announced at a freight conference (TIACA) in Bilbao a couple of years ago. Four years if I amnot mistaken, I was present at the announcement. However, such alliances work well with pax, not so much in cargo, as LH can sing a song of, WOW did not work well for them.

Anyhow, one should never trust the news. Latest on this topic here is that AF will keep the 5 freighters and Le Figaro got the info from the unions and forgot to check and verify with the AF management.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: ha763
Posted 2010-06-01 02:08:42 and read 3183 times.

Quoting LASoctoberB6 (Reply 44):
So are they going to re-convert '47s like JA8906 back to a passenger version, or is that impossible or that they're just letting go of the aircraft(s)?

All of JAL's 747-400s will be retired from the fleet by the end of FY2010 (March 31, 2011).

Also, it would not make any sense to reconvert a 747-400BCF back to a pax aircraft. In addition to all the normal modifications, part of the upper deck floor is removed in order to make more positions for 10ft high pallets.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: hardiwv
Posted 2010-06-06 01:28:54 and read 2750 times.

Quoting sxb (Thread starter):
Air France will announce on Monday that they will no longer have a dedicated cargo fleet but use the passenger planes instead. All related staff and services will be transferred to the passenger activity
Quoting petertenthije (Reply 4):
The last few months KLM has leased their 747ERFs to Martinair since KLM had no need for them in the current economy. This made it possible for Martinair to park their less efficient 747Fs. You will find that on the KLM Cargo 747s there are small operated by Martinair titles

It seems that Martinair Cargo will become AF/KL mainland cargo-only operator. Have the 747ERF returned from Martinair Cargo to KL Cargo?

Rgs,

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2010-06-06 02:39:18 and read 2629 times.

As mentioned above, the article in Le Figaro was a false report. A spokesperson of Air France said that AF will stick to their 5 aircraft freighter aircraft fleet. I do not know if that denial was published in le Figaro or other French newspapers, I haven't seen anything here however.

Fact is, AF has reduced the all cargo fleet from 11 to 5, KL has turned over their dedicated freighters to MP, whoich only makes sense, however it would make even much more sense to follow the Lufthansa path and forming an all new company for freighter operations that purchaes and re-sells belly capacity of the two carriers AF anmd KL, not a bad idea with two main European hubs.

Topic: RE: AF To Stop Dedicated Cargo Activity
Username: LJ
Posted 2010-06-06 04:29:18 and read 2529 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 58):
I do not know if that denial was published in le Figaro or other French newspapers, I haven't seen anything here however.

It was mentioned in the article ( "Contactée par Le Figaro, la direction d'Air France reconnaît «travailler», mais dément tout projet d'abandon de la flotte cargo." in the link mentioned in the opening post of this thread). However, myself and probably many others, were misled by the title of the article and the first paragraph (and the conflicting story thereafter). Basically if you read the article from a different perspective, it mentions that AF is reorganising the fleet, but it's not exactly clear what their intentions are. If my re-read of the article is correct, the unions expect that AF will do something about an agreement which prevents pilots from other airlines in the AF/KL Group flying for AF. This agreement probably prevents AF/Kl setting up a separate cargo entity (like LH Cargo). The article is very conflicting on this.

Again this shows that reading an article can result in an incorrect interpretation when the writer is selling a story which isn't entirely the whole story...


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