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Topic: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: threepoint
Posted 2010-06-16 13:16:55 and read 12110 times.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...010/06/16/ott-plan-off-runway.html

It appears a UA CRJ inbound from Washington has slid off or overrun the runway in Ottawa (CYOW). Minor injuries are reported to the captain, first officer and one passenger.

Heavy rain was reported at the time of the incident.

[Edited 2010-06-16 13:36:46]

Topic: RE: UA CRJ Slides Off Runway In YOW
Username: threepoint
Posted 2010-06-16 13:23:34 and read 12069 times.

http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loca...ne_100616/20100616/?hub=OttawaHome

United Express flight 8050. A picture of the aircraft is included in the link above.

Topic: RE: UA CRJ Slides Off Runway In YOW
Username: globalflyer
Posted 2010-06-16 13:29:43 and read 12004 times.

Looks like a Trans States ERJ in the picture. Flifo states arrival at 14:31 though scheduled at 13:54...of course the return has been cancelled!

Topic: RE: UA CRJ Slides Off Runway In YOW
Username: threepoint
Posted 2010-06-16 13:35:32 and read 11941 times.

You're right - it does look like an ERJ. Good eyes.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: loggat
Posted 2010-06-16 14:15:19 and read 11657 times.

I wonder if this is one of the planes that doesn't have thrust reversers...

and of course, Canadian runways are not grooved. Doesn't sound good.

[Edited 2010-06-16 14:16:08]

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-06-16 14:27:07 and read 11577 times.

Quoting threepoint (Thread starter):
a UA CRJ inbound from Washington

Updated article in your link says "The Embraer 145, listed as United Airlines Flight 8050,"

Quoting globalflyer (Reply 2):
Looks like a Trans States ERJ in the picture

The article linked in Reply 1 says "There were 33 people onboard flight 8050, operated by Trans States Airlines, "

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: andyinpit
Posted 2010-06-16 15:50:49 and read 11291 times.

Quoting loggat (Reply 4):
I wonder if this is one of the planes that doesn't have thrust reversers...

It does not have reversers. Only a handful of TransStates's planes do have reversers...I want to say 7, but thats just a guess

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: USXguy
Posted 2010-06-16 16:41:01 and read 11070 times.

Love how reporters in Canada go back and forth between the metric & US systems..

"The plane overshot the runway by about 200 metres, coming to a stop about 100 feet from the airport's fence, said paramedic spokesperson J.P. Trottier."

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2010-06-16 16:53:08 and read 11014 times.

Quoting USXguy (Reply 7):
Love how reporters in Canada go back and forth between the metric & US systems

It's because we have to hold on to the Imperial system of measurement when we do trade with the US.
So, when it comes to measurement, it's easier to round up to whatever is convenient...

It's easier to say 200 meters rather than 656.167 feet, and easier to say 100 feet, rather than 30.48 meters.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: bakersdozen
Posted 2010-06-16 17:07:21 and read 10948 times.

Quoting USXguy (Reply 7):
Love how reporters in Canada go back and forth between the metric & US systems..

"The plane overshot the runway by about 200 metres, coming to a stop about 100 feet from the airport's fence, said paramedic spokesperson J.P. Trottier."

It's a quote... it's not the reporters

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: HBGDS
Posted 2010-06-16 17:32:29 and read 10814 times.

From the NTSB press release:

At about 2:30 p.m. EDT, a Trans States Airlines Embraer-145

regional jet operated as United Express flight 8050

(N847HK), overran runway 25 while landing at Ottawa

International Airport. Preliminary reports indicate that

there were several injuries among the 33 passengers and

three crewmembers onboard. The flight originated from

Washington Dulles International Airport.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: JetCaptain
Posted 2010-06-16 17:41:43 and read 10758 times.

Pictures ....

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa...ottawa/2010/06/16/pf-14414881.html

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: threepoint
Posted 2010-06-16 18:01:18 and read 10675 times.

Quoting JetCaptain (Reply 11):
Pictures ....

Look at the 2nd photo in the slideshow. Never fails to amaze me how many passengers won't think of deplaning without their carry-on items.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: LJ35
Posted 2010-06-16 18:13:45 and read 10617 times.

I actually saw this incident happen before my eyes.I work @ the ESSO FBO @ YOW and the runway that this mishap occured on is right in front of us,and just a note regarding the NTSB statement saying it overan runway 25 it was actually runway 07.Conditions at the time fairly heavy rain and low cloud cover meaning that the runway was extremely slick although there were a few aicraft that landed before this one and there weren't any problems with them,yet most of them were using the entire length of 07 instead of exiting at Foxtrot taxiway.When I saw the United Express go buy he was moving at a fair clip and I had my doubts of it being able to stop in time,my fellow co-workers didn't seem to believe me when I said that he will most likely overun the end of the runway.Of course that changed when we all saw it nose down off the end of 07.Given that this was a Trans States owned aircraft it isn't equiped with thrust reversers,I know this because this is the second time in 6 years that a Trans States EMB 145 has gone off the end of a runway in YOW.The last time was in August 2004(this was a flight being operated for US Airways Express) on runway 25 in very wet conditions and the pilot there had said he had no braking action,essentially hydroplaning until he hit the grass were braking action was re-established.That recovery was easy,it only involved a tug and towbar,this one will pretty similar to the Miami Air 727 recovery back in September 2000 that had the same thing happen.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: PITrules
Posted 2010-06-16 18:47:12 and read 10489 times.

A few posters have mentioned the lack of thrust reversers, but in reality they only marginally help stopping performance, and many airlines' landing performance data does not even include the use of reverse thrust. Much more significant is the lack of grooves on the runway during a downpour.

Quoting loggat (Reply 4):

and of course, Canadian runways are not grooved. Doesn't sound good.

  

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: richierich
Posted 2010-06-17 06:51:27 and read 9105 times.

Minor injuries to the pilot and co-pilot = "they sh!t their pants!"  

Back to being serious for a second and obviously this incident could have been a lot worse. Thankfully everybody is OK and I wish all of those who were injured a quick recovery!

My guess is that this plane will be back in the skies in a month.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: NC1844V
Posted 2010-06-17 07:07:52 and read 8950 times.

Really doesn't look that bad. Good thing no one was hurt more than they were.

Always sad to see a beautiful airplane torn up though...

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: WJV04
Posted 2010-06-17 11:58:07 and read 6685 times.

Canadian runways are not groved, as they have negitive braking benifits in freezing conditons.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2010-06-17 13:20:44 and read 6141 times.

First post in months here..

Quoting loggat (Reply 4):
and of course, Canadian runways are not grooved. Doesn't sound good.

And, several thousand planes land every day in Canada just like everywhere else in the world, with no issues....... Lets not blow this up into a huge issue that likely isn't there.

Quoting WJV04 (Reply 17):
Canadian runways are not groved, as they have negitive braking benifits in freezing conditons.

Bingo.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: apodino
Posted 2010-06-17 22:40:48 and read 5868 times.

I am guessing that after this incident Trans States will want to change their ATC call sign to something other than "WATERSKI"

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: PITrules
Posted 2010-06-17 23:12:41 and read 5813 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 18):
And, several thousand planes land every day in Canada just like everywhere else in the world, with no issues....... Lets not blow this up into a huge issue that likely isn't there.

Lets not dismiss it before an investigation is complete either. Crowning and grooving reduces the amount of standing water which in turn reduces hydroplaning which in turn increases the margin of safety. Its not rocket science.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: FX772LRF
Posted 2010-06-17 23:21:19 and read 5797 times.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 12):
Look at the 2nd photo in the slideshow. Never fails to amaze me how many passengers won't think of deplaning without their carry-on items.

I think one of the main things you have to think about is what can actually be in a carry-on. Medicine being the big one, also house/car keys would be a big deal.

They're not going to just grab the things they need out of their bag. They grab all their sh!t possible and get out.

-Noah   

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: auroralives
Posted 2010-06-18 05:25:39 and read 5670 times.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 12):
Look at the 2nd photo in the slideshow. Never fails to amaze me how many passengers won't think of deplaning without their carry-on items.

On July 14, 2004, and almost identical situation happened on the same runway, in the opposite direction. You can read the report here.

It was a EMB-175 operated by Trans State Airways (but for USAir Express), Hmmmmmm..

I know this because I was on that plane  Wow!

Anyway, to the carry-on comment.... After the plane came to rest, it took almost 1.5 hours before they would let us off... they had to figure out how to get busses there, and since there was no danger of fire, they figured why make us stand around in a muddy field in the rain.

My incident and this one were NOT "throw open the door, inflate the slides and get the hell out at risk of death" type of incidents.... more like a call home and, "honey, my plane crashed and it's stuck in the mud and they won't let us out so I'll be late for dinner" kind of event.

Believe me, carry-on bags were NOT an issue  

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2010-06-18 07:12:27 and read 5590 times.

While I don't doubt your experience - to my knowledge Trans States has never operated any EMB-175 aircraft.

The incident in your link describes the aircraft as an ERJ-145.

Re the carry-on - it looks to me from the photos there was no "emergency evacuation" - but that when the passengers were allowed off the aircraft they were told to take all their belongings because they would not be getting back on the aircraft again.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-06-18 07:47:13 and read 5555 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 20):
Lets not dismiss it before an investigation is complete either. Crowning and grooving reduces the amount of standing water which in turn reduces hydroplaning which in turn increases the margin of safety. Its not rocket science.

And in winter, residual moisture in the grooves freezes and acts as an ice crystal catalyst for the remainder of the runway surface. It's way easier (or should be) to deal with a wet runway in summer than an icy one in winter.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: auroralives
Posted 2010-06-18 07:57:34 and read 5604 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 23):

While I don't doubt your experience - to my knowledge Trans States has never operated any EMB-175 aircraft.

The incident in your link describes the aircraft as an ERJ-145.

Sorry... typo... my point was it was the same aircraft both times.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: PITrules
Posted 2010-06-18 12:20:47 and read 5443 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 24):

And in winter, residual moisture in the grooves freezes and acts as an ice crystal catalyst for the remainder of the runway surface. It's way easier (or should be) to deal with a wet runway in summer than an icy one in winter.

Treatments are available to deal with that.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 24):
It's way easier (or should be) to deal with a wet runway in summer than an icy one in winter.

I disagree, if the runway is not crowned and grooved, how does an airport deal with a wet runway?

Over the past few years there have been 2 overruns on this same runway, 1 in YYZ, 1 in KIN - all on non grooved runways. Of course there are other factors as well, as accidents are the result of a broken link in the chain. However, in these cases that link was never even installed.

If Canada compromised safety in the summer because they thought safety would be increased in the winter, I believe they are in the minority as most major airports in the world have grooved runways, including northern Europe and the northern US. Furthermore, I've landed on US runways in winter perhaps 500 times more than I have on Canadian runways in summer... however I've had more total issues with braking in the Canadian summer.

[Edited 2010-06-18 12:22:16]

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2010-06-18 13:15:44 and read 5399 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):
Over the past few years there have been 2 overruns on this same runway, 1 in YYZ, 1 in KIN - all on non grooved runways. Of course there are other factors as well, as accidents are the result of a broken link in the chain. However, in these cases that link was never even installed.

If Canada compromised safety in the summer because they thought safety would be increased in the winter, I believe they are in the minority as most major airports in the world have grooved runways, including northern Europe and the northern US. Furthermore, I've landed on US runways in winter perhaps 500 times more than I have on Canadian runways in summer... however I've had more total issues with braking in the Canadian summer.

It's too premature to even blame the runway at this point. For a plane of this size in question to not be able to land on an 8000 foot runway in stormy weather when HUNDREDS of other flights have landed safely on the same runway in the same kind of conditions over and over again, I don't think the runway is chiefly at stake here.

Considering the same airline went off the other end a few years ago, I'd highly suggest maybe they need to look at their equipment and/or their skill level of the pilots involved.. yet again, that's what the investigation is for.

I get what you're saying, but there ARE runway overruns in the US too, on grooved runways, so... you can't chiefly blame the runway.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2010-06-18 13:38:05 and read 5370 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 23):
Re the carry-on - it looks to me from the photos there was no "emergency evacuation" - but that when the passengers were allowed off the aircraft they were told to take all their belongings because they would not be getting back on the aircraft again.

In this case it does indeed look like there was an emergency evacuation. All four of the exits are open and in one of the pics the F/A can be seen herding people away from the aircraft.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2010-06-18 15:35:23 and read 5287 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):
Over the past few years there have been 2 overruns on this same runway, 1 in YYZ

The previous overrun on this runway and in YYZ were both hot and high; in addition, the previous YOW overrun was also attributed to inappropriate wet runway landing technique and the YYZ overrun to improper autobrake settings.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):

If Canada compromised safety in the summer because they thought safety would be increased in the winter, I believe they are in the minority as most major airports in the world have grooved runways, including northern Europe and the northern US. Furthermore, I've landed on US runways in winter perhaps 500 times more than I have on Canadian runways in summer... however I've had more total issues with braking in the Canadian summer.

Hardly valid comparisons. Ottawa is the second coldest capital in the world (after Ulan Bator) - colder than Moscow, Helsinki, Oslo, etc and way colder than any U.S. city (except a few places in Alaska).

Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 24):

And in winter, residual moisture in the grooves freezes and acts as an ice crystal catalyst for the remainder of the runway surface. It's way easier (or should be) to deal with a wet runway in summer than an icy one in winter.

Treatments are available to deal with that.

There's not much that works at -30C and colder. I assume that Transport Canada has taken a reasoned decision regarding grooving, rather than the negligent/ignorant decision you seem to be implying. And the TSB did not recommend grooving as a result of its investigation of the previous overruns.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: PITrules
Posted 2010-06-18 16:51:55 and read 5239 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 29):

The previous overrun on this runway and in YYZ were both hot and high; in addition, the previous YOW overrun was also attributed to inappropriate wet runway landing technique and the YYZ overrun to improper autobrake settings.

Indeed; as I stated there is a chain of events. What I'm talking about is increasing the margin of safety on wet runways, which grooved runways do. I'm not sure where the point of argument is. Again, if Transport Canada made a calculated decision on this, then they are in the minority when compared to other cold weather regions of the world.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 29):

Hardly valid comparisons. Ottawa is the second coldest capital in the world (after Ulan Bator) - colder than Moscow, Helsinki, Oslo, etc and way colder than any U.S. city (except a few places in Alaska).

How's it not a valid comparison? Below freezing is below freezing. If it's -20C in YOW, and 'only' -10C in BUF, are you suggesting that the BUF runway is not subject below freezing factors? What's invalid is dismissing the cold weather operation of all these other airports. Furthermore, temperature is only one factor in this discussion; BUF gets more snow than just about anywhere, and freezing rain is common as far south as Georgia.

[Edited 2010-06-18 17:07:57]

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-06-18 17:27:43 and read 5210 times.

Quoting loggat (Reply 4):
and of course, Canadian runways are not grooved.
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 29):
Ottawa is the second coldest capital in the world (after Ulan Bator) - colder than Moscow, Helsinki, Oslo, etc and way colder than any U.S. city (except a few places in Alaska).

MSP winters are several degrees colder than YOW based on average temperature data from 1970 to 2000. Record low temperatures for the months of December through March during that 30 year period are also slightly lower for MSP than YOW for 3 of those 4 months, and almost equal for one month.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: threepoint
Posted 2010-06-19 17:17:04 and read 4961 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 30):
Below freezing is below freezing.

Not so my friend. The properties of water, or in this case, ice, differ greatly at different temperatures. Ice & snow certainly do not retain static properties once the mercury dips below 0C.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2010-06-19 22:00:07 and read 4797 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 29):
Ottawa is the second coldest capital in the world (after Ulan Bator) - colder than Moscow, Helsinki, Oslo, etc and way colder than any U.S. city (except a few places in Alaska).

Off topic, but not true. Moscow is colder by record and average temperature while Helsinki is colder by average temperature, as are Reykjavik and a couple other places.

And as already pointed out, the northern tier of great plains states are generally colder as well.

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: threepoint
Posted 2010-06-20 08:25:34 and read 4661 times.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 33):
as are Reykjavik

Veering off topic here, but are you sure? Reykjavik is a surprisingly mild city...

It's all a moot exercise at any rate, because all that really matters is that Ottawa experiences a wide range of temperature seasonally, and the runways go through a lot of freeze-thaw cycles each year. Who cares if it's colder (or not) than Moscow or Minneapolis?
It's not that runway grooves were somehow overlooked or dismissed based upon cost (Canadian airport authorities love to spend money, trust us). There are valid reasons why certain surfaces are constructed the way they are, and in the case of the plane above, I suspect that there were several other variables that contributed to the incident that grooves may not have been able to mitigate. Pilots are amazing individuals, they have the capacity to overrun the longest runways...

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: atpcliff
Posted 2010-06-20 10:04:47 and read 4597 times.

Hi!

Thrust reversers can make a HUGE difference. I am currently flying a DC-9, and we could stop without using ANY braking, if we wanted to. TRs are not used in stopping perfomrance, for a number of reasons, one being that they can negavtively affect directional control in certain conditions. TRs are essential equipment on an airlineer, if you ask me!

cliff
LFW

Topic: RE: UA Express Regional Jet Runway Overrun In YOW
Username: DashTrash
Posted 2010-06-20 11:31:58 and read 4514 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 14):
A few posters have mentioned the lack of thrust reversers, but in reality they only marginally help stopping performance, and many airlines' landing performance data does not even include the use of reverse thrust. Much more significant is the lack of grooves on the runway during a downpour.

I hear what you're saying, but not all types of reversers are created equal. ERJ buckets create a lot of drag just by opening them. They're good and effective.

Amen on the grooved rwy issue. Last airplane I flew didn't have the numbers to land on most wet runways. Only way to get in was to use grooved runways.

Quoting atpcliff (Reply 35):
Thrust reversers can make a HUGE difference. I am currently flying a DC-9, and we could stop without using ANY braking, if we wanted to. TRs are not used in stopping perfomrance, for a number of reasons, one being that they can negavtively affect directional control in certain conditions. TRs are essential equipment on an airlineer, if you ask me!

I'm on the same page!


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