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Topic: NYT Ad, Argentina To Charter Presidential Jet
Username: TK787
Posted 2010-07-08 06:51:51 and read 2534 times.

In today NYT, there was an ad from the "Presidencia de la Nacion Argentina Secreteria General"
to contract an aircraft charter service for the months of Oct. and Nov 2010, since the presidential aircraft 757-200 is going through inspection.

I haven't seen an ad like this before.
Couldn't they do without a presidential craft for couple of months, or lease something domestically?
Is there any frames out there globally that are designed for VIP charter for couple of months?

Topic: RE: NYT Ad, Argentina To Charter Presidential Jet
Username: LVZXV
Posted 2010-07-08 08:46:22 and read 2366 times.

"Queen Cristina", as la Presidente is often referred to, has been known to charter a lot of aircraft and helicopters for presidential duties, usually with very little warning. She has regularly "borrowed" an A340 or B744 from AR, sending the carrier's own int'l flight schedule into a tailspin (too few operational aircraft in long-haul, until recently). Her favourite for some reason has been the A340-300 LV-BMT, although now that another A340-300 has arrived exclusively for back-up and has a reg that matches her initials (LV-CEK; CEK=Cristina Elisabet Kirchner, when she goes by her married name), it would make sense that she'd use that one when T-01 unavailable.

For those new to the topic, there has been a lot of scandal surrounding Argentine presidential aircraft for nearly 40 years. In 1972, Perón chucked thriftiness to the wind when, after travelling on an AR 707 from MAD to EZE, he decided the presidency could do with its own. The $15M bill was footed to AR, then state-owned, so in effect, the taxpayers. When it arrived in 1975, Perón was dead and his widowed wife's government virtually bankrupt, so the aircraft was sent back to the US after less than two years for Combi conversion, so as to fly cargo for the Air Force.

In 1991 something similar happened with then president Carlos Menem. President Solanas of Mexico brought his own brand-new VIP 757 to a summit in Buenos Aires. Menem, impressed by the aircraft, asked his Mexican counterpart for a flight over the River Plate. A year or so and $66M later, the Argentine presidency received its own 757 from Seattle. Come the time of Menem's predecessor, Fernando de la Rúa, however, there was much talk amid Argentina's new recession of selling the "frivolous" aircraft. All attempts were unsuccessful.

Finally, by the time of the Kirchners (or simply "the K's"), the aircraft began to show signs of poor maintenance, with the most notable sign in the form of an engine surge requiring a shut-down on take-off from AEP, with Néstor K and his planning minister Julio de Vido on board. Néstor is reported to have exclaimed "Julito, nosh matamosh!" or words to that effect in his moment of fear. The aircraft was then grounded for a while before being sent to IAI in Israel for a thorough D-Check.

There have been a lot of financial irregularities concerning the aircraft and its use (once for example it is alleged that Cristina forgot her bag of make-up in RGL while returning to AEP and even though one-hour into the flight and with the money she has, ordered the crew to return to RGL). It is ETOPS-certified and yet for some reason its auxiliary fuel tanks have been rendered INOP for years, supposedly on Boeing's orders. The presidency has also feared that the aircraft could be impounded if it landed on certain countries' soil, due to Argentina's foreign debt.

So, in short, what a lot of Argentines would like to see is either T-01, which is only an 18-year-old, low-houred aircraft, to be used properly or for the presidency to travel the way a lot of leaders do these days: commercially. For the latter though, AR has to have sufficient long-haul aircraft for the presidency to be able to charter one at short notice without causing severe delays to the revenue intercontinental flights. Hopefully the inspection of which the NYT speaks is the one that leaves T-01 able to fulfil its presidential duties and AR's passengers to travel with one less thing on the long list of factors that can and often do delay their flights.

Aloha,

/ZXV

Topic: RE: NYT Ad, Argentina To Charter Presidential Jet
Username: Revelation
Posted 2010-07-08 10:18:20 and read 2232 times.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 1):
/ZXV

Thanks for the interesting history lesson!

I wonder if the current servicing will restore the aux tanks or not.

Topic: RE: NYT Ad, Argentina To Charter Presidential Jet
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-07-08 11:37:54 and read 2133 times.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 1):

USER PROFILESEND INSTANT MSGADD TO RESP MEMBERSSUGGEST DELETIONQUOTE SELECTED TEXT_

LVZXV From France, joined Mar 2004, 2000 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted Thu Jul 8 2010 11:46:22 your local time (2 hours 44 minutes 8 secs ago) and read 226 times:


"Queen Cristina", as la Presidente is often referred to, has been known to charter a lot of aircraft and helicopters for presidential duties, usually with very little warning. She has regularly "borrowed" an A340 or B744 from AR, sending the carrier's own int'l flight schedule into a tailspin (too few operational aircraft in long-haul, until recently). Her favourite for some reason has been the A340-300 LV-BMT, although now that another A340-300 has arrived exclusively for back-up and has a reg that matches her initials (LV-CEK; CEK=Cristina Elisabet Kirchner, when she goes by her married name), it would make sense that she'd use that one when T-01 unavailable.

For those new to the topic, there has been a lot of scandal surrounding Argentine presidential aircraft for nearly 40 years. In 1972, Perón chucked thriftiness to the wind when, after travelling on an AR 707 from MAD to EZE, he decided the presidency could do with its own. The $15M bill was footed to AR, then state-owned, so in effect, the taxpayers. When it arrived in 1975, Perón was dead and his widowed wife's government virtually bankrupt, so the aircraft was sent back to the US after less than two years for Combi conversion, so as to fly cargo for the Air Force.

In 1991 something similar happened with then president Carlos Menem. President Solanas of Mexico brought his own brand-new VIP 757 to a summit in Buenos Aires. Menem, impressed by the aircraft, asked his Mexican counterpart for a flight over the River Plate. A year or so and $66M later, the Argentine presidency received its own 757 from Seattle. Come the time of Menem's predecessor, Fernando de la Rúa, however, there was much talk amid Argentina's new recession of selling the "frivolous" aircraft. All attempts were unsuccessful.

Finally, by the time of the Kirchners (or simply "the K's"), the aircraft began to show signs of poor maintenance, with the most notable sign in the form of an engine surge requiring a shut-down on take-off from AEP, with Néstor K and his planning minister Julio de Vido on board. Néstor is reported to have exclaimed "Julito, nosh matamosh!" or words to that effect in his moment of fear. The aircraft was then grounded for a while before being sent to IAI in Israel for a thorough D-Check.

There have been a lot of financial irregularities concerning the aircraft and its use (once for example it is alleged that Cristina forgot her bag of make-up in RGL while returning to AEP and even though one-hour into the flight and with the money she has, ordered the crew to return to RGL). It is ETOPS-certified and yet for some reason its auxiliary fuel tanks have been rendered INOP for years, supposedly on Boeing's orders. The presidency has also feared that the aircraft could be impounded if it landed on certain countries' soil, due to Argentina's foreign debt.

So, in short, what a lot of Argentines would like to see is either T-01, which is only an 18-year-old, low-houred aircraft, to be used properly or for the presidency to travel the way a lot of leaders do these days: commercially. For the latter though, AR has to have sufficient long-haul aircraft for the presidency to be able to charter one at short notice without causing severe delays to the revenue intercontinental flights. Hopefully the inspection of which the NYT speaks is the one that leaves T-01 able to fulfil its presidential duties and AR's passengers to travel with one less thing on the long list of factors that can and often do delay their flights

A FEWS years ago I read about a trip operated by the commercial side of teh Argentine Air Force on a 707 delivered in 1975. This was from an air force base 50 miles from Buenos Aires not EZE airport. Given the probability that the Argentine Air Force took delivery of only 1 707 in 1975, it must be the same plane. The government should sell Tango 1 for anything they can get, 15,000,000,000 UDS would help teh Argentine treasury lots.

Topic: RE: NYT Ad, Argentina To Charter Presidential Jet
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2010-07-08 23:12:27 and read 1896 times.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 1):
In 1991 something similar happened with then president Carlos Menem. President Solanas of Mexico brought his own brand-new VIP 757 to a summit in Buenos Aires. Menem, impressed by the aircraft, asked his Mexican counterpart for a flight over the River Plate.

The plane was delivered in 7/22/92.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 1):
Her favourite for some reason has been the A340-300 LV-BMT

It's the only one that can be fitted with a presidential conference table.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 1):
All attempts were unsuccessful.

There weren't any!  All that lame talk about selling T-01 were for "la gilada".

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 1):
There have been a lot of financial irregularities concerning the aircraft and its use (once for example it is alleged that Cristina forgot her bag of make-up in RGL while returning to AEP and even though one-hour into the flight and with the money she has, ordered the crew to return to RGL).

Wasn't T-03 involved in those?

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 1):
the presidency to travel the way a lot of leaders do these days: commercially.

And by that you mean chartering an airplane from an airline, like all governments do (I've seen no head of state travelling on commercial-regular flights). Which costs a whole lot more than using your own airplane (and that's without even counting the opportunity cost for the airline).

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
A FEWS years ago I read about a trip operated by the commercial side of teh Argentine Air Force on a 707 delivered in 1975. This was from an air force base 50 miles from Buenos Aires not EZE airport. Given the probability that the Argentine Air Force took delivery of only 1 707 in 1975, it must be the same plane. The government should sell Tango 1 for anything they can get, 15,000,000,000 UDS would help teh Argentine treasury lots.

Here's an idea: NO. It's stupid (plainly put) to sell an airplane that cost 77 million dollars for 15mn. You really have no clue about the Argentine treasure. Please, refrain from typing anything about this   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
I wonder if the current servicing will restore the aux tanks or not.

I sure hope so!

Saludos,

Topic: RE: NYT Ad, Argentina To Charter Presidential Jet
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2010-07-08 23:53:09 and read 1860 times.

I wonder if nations that are friends could have some plane sharing of VIP planes, at least when maintenance is required.

Topic: RE: NYT Ad, Argentina To Charter Presidential Jet
Username: LVZXV
Posted 2010-07-09 03:56:42 and read 1764 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Thanks for the interesting history lesson!

My pleasure.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 4):
The plane was delivered in 7/22/92.

Correct. I didn't say anything different though.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 4):
It's the only one that can be fitted with a presidential conference table.

A presidential conference table, what a scary thought. They must use it come with believable justifications for some of their trips.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 4):
There weren't any! All that lame talk about selling T-01 were for "la gilada".

I'm sure the presidency (or at least that of de la Duda) thought about it, until realising what a limited market there is for Air Force One-like 757s. But yes, I can quite easily buy that the K's have never really wanted to.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 4):
Wasn't T-03 involved in those?

I'm sure it's been involved as well, but the specific incident I wa referring to involved T-01.

Another funny anecdote involving T-01, was when it first visited PUQ (Punta Arenas, Chile). When it was taxiing in, the tower advised the pilots to park facing the strong winds, as parking perpendicular greatly increases the change of a compressor stall on start-up. The 757's pilots, knowing best of course, ignored this advice and parked broadside to the wind. When it was time for the aircraft to leave, two bangs were heard as both engines apparently suffered compressor stalls during start-up. Such is the TLC that T-01 receives.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
A FEWS years ago I read about a trip operated by the commercial side of teh Argentine Air Force on a 707 delivered in 1975. This was from an air force base 50 miles from Buenos Aires not EZE airport. Given the probability that the Argentine Air Force took delivery of only 1 707 in 1975, it must be the same plane.

You'd be referring to TC-91 on a flight out of El Palomar AFB, situated in the northwestern suburbs of Buenos Aires. It was indeed the only 707 the FAA received in 1975, although six more used examples (mostly ex-AR) were delivered between 1981 and 1997, of which two were lost in 1993 and 1996 respectively. Out of interest, where did you read that trip report?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The government should sell Tango 1 for anything they can get, 15,000,000,000 UDS would help teh Argentine treasury lots.

On the one hand, yes, $15,000,000,000 would greatly help the Argentine Treasury. On the other, no one in their right mind is ever going to pay $15,000,000,000 ($15 billion) for a 757, even if Boeing reopened the 757 production line and built it just for them. The only way T-01 can come close to paying for itself is if it used past its 30th birthday in 2022. If 757s in commercial use like those of US Airways can comfortably fly past their 27th birthdays, one with a much sleepier life like T-01 should be able to go even further. If they maintain it, that is...

Aloha,

/ZXV

Topic: RE: NYT Ad, Argentina To Charter Presidential Jet
Username: jfk777
Posted 2010-07-09 06:20:38 and read 1707 times.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 4):
Here's an idea: NO. It's stupid (plainly put) to sell an airplane that cost 77 million dollars for 15mn. You really have no clue about the Argentine treasure. Please, refrain from typing anything about this

MD-11 Junkie,

I have very much a clue about Argentina, its economy, Aerolinias Argentinas, Carlos Menem, President Kirschner and his high wife Cristina, Argentina's current President. Just for teh record I have been to Buenos Aires for a week and enjoyed your country's great hospitality.

While Aregntina is a proud country which should be proud, why does the country's President need a Presidential Airplane? Prestige is not a reason and can Argentina afford to do it for Prestige ? So Tango 1 cost your country 77 million USD, that money is gone. IF today the plane is only worth 25% then that is better then nothing. The Queen of England nor the Prime Minister has a British Air Force One.

Sadly your country has an airline which is an example of how not to run an airline, its not only about the workers. I am not going to waste my time on examples, which you should know. Your neighors in Chile know how to run an airline. The fact that Miami to EZE is AA'smost profitable route in teh world says alot. EZE's market is deep, teh night I was leaving i was highly impressed the how many flights there were to North America from airlines new to South America; Delta, United, Continental, not teh typical list of USA airlines to Argentina flying to Washington, Atlanta, Houston.



Quoting LVZXV (Reply 6):
On the one hand, yes, $15,000,000,000 would greatly help the Argentine Treasury. On the other, no one in their right mind is ever going to pay $15,000,000,000 ($15 billion) for a 757, even if Boeing reopened the 757 production line and built it just for them. The only way T-01 can come close to paying for itself is if it used past its 30th birthday in 2022. If 757s in commercial use like those of US Airways can comfortably fly past their 27th birthdays, one with a much sleepier life like T-01 should be able to go even further. If they maintain it, that is...


The President of Argentina should travel on an Argentine airliner leased from an airline, if that is Aerolinias Argentinas, then that is fine or some yet to exist new Argentine airline.


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