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Topic: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2010-07-07 18:19:56 and read 13967 times.

Out of curiosity, I sought to compare two midwestern hubs for Delta. I used the date July, 19 to gather the number of outbound flights and seats but I considered service that was only weekly.

The results:
DESTINATIONS

DTW: 146
MSP: 135

FLIGHTS

DTW: 589
MSP: 509

SEATS

DTW: 50,875
MSP: 47,724
Some general observations:
- Delta has added flights to these hubs. I knew both would be a bit bigger in terms of flights because of their added frequency to many Midwestern markets, but I didn’t know they would have this many flights. Last time I remembered looking, MSP had 420-460 flights. Of course, if CRJ’S are replacing A320’s (as in my home market, Duluth), flights could go up with seats saying close to the same. And with seats, not flights often determining prices, there really could be no more capacity.
- Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320’s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90’s replacing the Airbus’s but there are still a lot of Airbus’s at MSP.
- Minneapolis seems to have taken the role as a great plains hub in the new Delta (as it was with Northwest), serving lots of small to midsized markets through Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, and parts of Michigan. Detroit serves the east coast strongly, but also Michigan of course.
- Minneapolis, although only having 86% percent of the number of the flights at Detroit, has 94% of the amount of seats that Detroit has. This is probably due to all the A319/A320/DC-9, where Detroit sees a lot more Emb 175/CRJ.
-There are a lot of routes that overfly the other hub or MAY make sense only sending through one hub. For example, a city like Albany could just as easily be connected through Detroit as having the one flight to Minneapolis, while Sioux Falls could just as easily be connected through Minneapolis as oppose to having flights to Detroit also.

Hopefully, this can spark some responses with regard to the data. Also, this could create a conversation about the MSP/DTW hub competition. Of course, one could argue that SLC is very much in this competition to see who plays single fiddle to ATL for Delta hubs.

Feel free to point out mistakes too, but I double checked to avoid any! I counted the Honolulu’s as a daily for each even though it is only 4 weekly at MSP and 3 weekly at DTW.

screenclippings of excel spreasheets - organized by cities with highest number of seats to lowest
DETROIT
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det1.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det2.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det3.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det4.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/det5.png

MINNEAPOLIS
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP1.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP2.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP3.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP4.pnghttp://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/Delta%20hubs%20at%20Minneapolis%20Detroit/MSP5.png

[Edited 2010-07-07 18:35:31]

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-07-07 18:26:47 and read 13947 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
Also, this could create a conversation about the MSP/DTW hub competition.

Who said there's a competition? NW certainly didn't operate the hubs as competitors.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2010-07-07 18:42:27 and read 13854 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Who said there's a competition? NW certainly didn't operate the hubs as competitors.

Well, maybe that's not the right word but there is parody in these hubs in that they both have a similar number of flights. But even beyond the parody, I believe there is competition, albeit small and often times discrete. For example, when Delta added DTW-HNL, it could be argued that this was at MSP's expense as presumably more people in the network were heading through Detroit, justifying pulling MSP back to four weekly in order to make Detroit work. If in one week, Delta decided to add 5 more flights from Flint to Minneapolis, it would probably be at Detroit's expense, and perhaps this addition would be with a few flights taken away from Detroit to Flint. I'm not saying they compete on every route, but it's hard to argue aganist the fact that in many markets, one's gain is another's loss. And that, to me, is "competition" even if in the smallest sense.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: jbmitt
Posted 2010-07-07 18:46:08 and read 13821 times.

Is it just me or under the spread sheets does DTW to IND and MSP to DEN show up wrong? The total seat counts don't seem reflective of the number of flights/equipment?

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2010-07-07 18:58:19 and read 13756 times.

Yes. Can't believe I missed these:

MSP-DEN should have 1303 and DTW-IND should have 809.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: oa412
Posted 2010-07-07 19:10:50 and read 13686 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Who said there's a competition? NW certainly didn't operate the hubs as competitors.

   They both served different traffic flows before the merger, and the same is true after the merger. DL has turned DTW into the major Asia hub (which IIRC is what NW intended to do with the 787), while MSP is the more domestic hub with a good amount of international service. I think that both hubs will survive and thrive long term. DTW has an excellent facility and is still a fairly large city despite all of the problems. Additionally, the business base given the automotive industry is still quite strong. MSP also has a strong business base that helps the hub out. In the end, while DL may not have a hub in the largest Midwest market, their hubs at MSP and DTW allow the airline to offer excellent coverage of the Midwest. Also, given the strength of MSP and DTW, you will see the continued winding down of the CVG hub.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2010-07-07 19:47:42 and read 13555 times.

***mistakes eliminated but i can't edit so i am reposting my initial post with the correct data***

Out of curiosity, I sought to compare two midwestern hubs for Delta. I used the date July, 19 to gather the number of outbound flights and seats but I considered service that was only weekly.

The results:
DESTINATIONS

DTW: 146
MSP: 135

FLIGHTS

DTW: 589
MSP: 509

SEATS

DTW: 51,562
MSP: 50,215
Some general observations:
- Delta has added flights to these hubs. I knew both would be a bit bigger in terms of flights because of their added frequency to many Midwestern markets, but I didn’t know they would have this many flights. Last time I remembered looking, MSP had 420-460 flights. Of course, if CRJ’S are replacing A320’s (as in my home market, Duluth), flights could go up with seats saying close to the same. And with seats, not flights often determining prices, there really could be no more capacity.
- Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320’s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90’s replacing the Airbus’s but there are still a lot of Airbus’s at MSP.
- Minneapolis seems to have taken the role as a great plains hub in the new Delta (as it was with Northwest), serving lots of small to midsized markets through Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, and parts of Michigan. Detroit serves the east coast strongly, but also Michigan of course.
- Minneapolis, although only having 86% percent of the number of the flights at Detroit, has 97% of the amount of seats that Detroit has. This is probably due to all the A319/A320/DC-9, where Detroit sees a lot more Emb 175/CRJ.
-There are a lot of routes that overfly the other hub or MAY make sense only sending through one hub. For example, a city like Albany could just as easily be connected through Detroit as having the one flight to Minneapolis, while Sioux Falls could just as easily be connected through Minneapolis as oppose to having flights to Detroit also.

Hopefully, this can spark some responses with regard to the data. Also, this could create a conversation about the MSP/DTW hub competition. Of course, one could argue that SLC is very much in this competition to see who plays single fiddle to ATL for Delta hubs.

Feel free to point out mistakes too, but I double checked to avoid any! I counted the Honolulu’s as a daily for each even though it is only 4 weekly at MSP and 3 weekly at DTW.

screenclippings of excel spreasheets - organized by cities with highest number of seats to lowest
DETROIT
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw1.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw2.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw3.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw4.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/dtw5.png

MINNEAPOLIS
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP1.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP2.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP3.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP4.png
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/flyingperson/msp%20dtw/MSP5.png

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-07-07 19:56:45 and read 13492 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 6):

Out of curiousity, where did you pull this info from? It seems like a neat utility.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2010-07-07 20:05:23 and read 13448 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 7):
Out of curiousity, where did you pull this info from? It seems like a neat utility.

hard work. designed a speadsheet, typed in each city served (by looking at the PDF timetable), than used the Delta "View our flight schedules" to find the number of flights and types of planes for each route. Than, typed all that in. Than, I added up the number of seats in each plane X the frequency to get the number of daily seats. Than took screenclippings of the spreadsheets since it looks better than copying the data in. Each hub had five screenclippings. Uploaded those to photobucket than put the img code's in the message. It took about 1-2 hours per hub which was a total waste of time, but I was curious and had some free time this week. So, no special program. I wish there was, where we could quickly determine this data.

[Edited 2010-07-07 20:06:41]

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: nwafan20
Posted 2010-07-07 20:11:58 and read 13419 times.

DLHFLYER, thanks for this. This is great stuff!! Without someone taking the time to do it, we would never know!

Also, this will hopefully stop the "which is larger" thread that comes up every couple of months...

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-07-07 20:19:09 and read 13376 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 8):

Ah, I thought it was through some website. Excellent work!

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-07 21:39:24 and read 13172 times.

I don't see DTW-CIU Sault Ste. Marie, MI 2x daily Saab on the list.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320%u2019s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90%u2019s replacing the Airbus%u2019s but there are still a lot of Airbus%u2019s at MSP.

There was some shift of MD88/MD90 equipment to MSP, but what was in SLC was relatively small in comparison to the large Airbus base out of MSP.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
- Minneapolis, although only having 86% percent of the number of the flights at Detroit, has 94% of the amount of seats that Detroit has. This is probably due to all the A319/A320/DC-9, where Detroit sees a lot more Emb 175/CRJ.

MSP sees the most E175 flying, but also sees a lot of A319/A320s. DTW has the most DC-9 flying these days, and a lot of CR9s, plus a lot of additional 50 seat flying this summer.

Too bad some of the routes like:
DTW-SNA
DTW-CHO
DTW-CMI

are being cut later this year.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: gaystudpilot
Posted 2010-07-07 21:40:59 and read 13175 times.

DLHFLYER -

This isn't meant to sound harsh, but you kind of sound like an unsophisticated consultant or a first year associate at McKinsey or Booz and Company. ie, "Give me your watch and I'll tell you what time it is."

Specifically, you did a great job collecting a lot of data. You made a good first pass at some very general observations about the data. Then you stopped and asked what everyone thought. Clients don't like giving the consultant the answer.

So, thinking through this further and perhaps some additional analyses may lead to more value add observations and enable a more strategic discussion in the forum that would send the a.net armchair CEOs' heads spinning.

For example,

What did the data tell you about how DL is using the two hubs that may provide insight into their hub/fleet strategy?

How are these hubs different from the other hubs in DL's network?

Does the data point to changes in usage/positioning since the merger and for things to come?

How does DL's hub/network strategy appear to be different from other US airlines?

Does the strategy for DTW and MSP appear to be similar to European peers, eg, LH and MUC/FRA?

What is the role of DTW/MSP in DL's international expansion strategy? How would you recommend capturing additional value from these two airports in DL's international expansion?

Moving forward, how would you advise Anderson to maximize value from the two airports?

How would your above reco impact other hubs in the DL network?

Does DL's hub/network strategy provide a true competitive advantage or is the executive team just trying to do the best they can given current assets?

What impact will MSP/DTW and overall network strategy have on future fleet strategy?

In short, you did the hard work and I want to know what you think. And I'd like to see some additional data that supports you POV.

Great start!



[Edited 2010-07-07 21:47:35]

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2010-07-07 21:50:37 and read 13124 times.

Since when is there a 777 on the DTW-LAX route?!?!??!

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: gaystudpilot
Posted 2010-07-07 22:02:47 and read 13088 times.

Yes.

See Tue, Jul 20th
DL1619
772LR
Dp DTW 15:15
Ar LAX 17:15

Or did you really want to know "since when"?  

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-07 22:22:22 and read 13018 times.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 13):
Since when is there a 777 on the DTW-LAX route?!?!??!

On one of the flights 4-5 times per week. More or less a repositioning flight as the 777 comes off one of the Asia flights, then goes DTW-LAX, and then flies either LAX-SYD or LAX-ATL.

Started in early June when they launched the new DTW-Asia flights.

There is also a 763 on most days too.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: SNCntry32
Posted 2010-07-07 23:25:59 and read 12890 times.

MSP DTW together is to DL is ORD is to AA and UA it seems to me. Two midwestren hubs with strong biz. in thier own cities but not as strong as CHI. However the two together complementing each other in perfect harmony is what will make the backbone of DL's route structure. They truly have North to South, East to West covered pretty will with ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: FlyBlue777
Posted 2010-07-08 02:02:01 and read 12684 times.

I flew on on a DL 777 from DTW-LAX last month. It was great!!
Load factor was about 90%
Great IFE!

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2010-07-08 02:21:26 and read 12643 times.

Taking some time to check what you researched i shall say that you provided to the entire A.net community a great job. Congratulations !



Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):

What do you think about the future potential of each one of the hubs ? Do their future expansion will face the other hub "area of influence" ?

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: homsar
Posted 2010-07-08 06:03:33 and read 11894 times.

I'm just shocked to see there's more capacity DTW-MSN than there is DTW-MKE.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: SLCGuy
Posted 2010-07-08 06:03:52 and read 11895 times.

Can't believe there are that many A320/319 left at MSP, since they moved an Airbus base to SLC they have become as common as the CRJ's. Can't go anywhere without stepping on one. 738 flights are far fewer than before and the M90 are only a handful. At least we have gained some more 757's.

[Edited 2010-07-08 06:07:13]

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-08 06:18:46 and read 11798 times.

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 16):
MSP DTW together is to DL is ORD is to AA and UA it seems to me. Two midwestren hubs with strong biz. in thier own cities but not as strong as CHI. However the two together complementing each other in perfect harmony is what will make the backbone of DL's route structure. They truly have North to South, East to West covered pretty will with ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC.

Exactly, DTW & MSP compliment very well, it is not an either/or scenario. Part of the reason is geographic coverage. There are many routes from MSP that just can't be effectively served from DTW with an appropriate aircraft size, have decent economics, and/or also not consume a ton of aircraft time. Same goes for DTW.

Some examples: MSP-SCE, MSP-CAK, MSP-ABE, MSP-BGM, etc. are too long to effectively and comfortably be served with 50 seat RJs. Routes like DTW-BOI, DTW-GEG, DTW-BIS aren't effective either to be flown with anything smaller than Airbus, which is likely too much capacity.

Similar to MEM and the Texas markets that aren't served from ATL.

Just look at the markets from ORD that AA & UA do not serve, yet DL flies from MSP and DTW to give an idea of how the dual hubs serve different traffic flows and markets. It gets even more extreme when looking at MSP alone or DTW alone as ORD is more centrally located.

Plus, the DTW & MSP hubs enabled NW, and now DL to blanket some key markets and offer almost shuttle-like service to the hubs to onward connections. This has allowed them to have a commanding presence in places like IND, CMH, GRR, STL, MSN, OMA, etc.

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 20):
Can't believe there are that many A320/319 left at MSP, since they moved an Airbus base to SLC they have become as common as the CRJ's

Keep in mind there are over 125 A319/A320s and SLC alone doesn't use that many, still leaving plenty to go around. If anything, there seems to be noticably less DTW Airbus flying these days, with more 738's on the longer routes (SEA, LAX, SFO) and MD88s on some of the shorter stuff to the East Coast (LGA, BOS)

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: VC10DC10
Posted 2010-07-08 06:36:04 and read 11685 times.

Fantastic post, DLHFLYER! Great stuff. I was surprised to see the increase in frequencies and seats to the old, traditional "northwest" Northwest cities like BIL, GEG, BZN -- is it just me or does it look a lot higher than it's been in recent summers?

Parenthetically, I very much wish I could play with the Excel files myself; I suspect there's some more interesting info that could be teased out with some quick manipulation.

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 12):

How does DL's hub/network strategy appear to be different from other US airlines?

Maybe this is too first-year-at-Booz for more seasoned experts like you, gaystudpilot, but it seems DL isn't afraid to "overfly" both of its main Midwest hubs (single daily 319 service DTW-YVR and MSP-PVD, for example). I reject out of hand the idea that DL is "just trying to do the best they can given current assets" as not since the days of Independence Air has an airline just flown equipment around between two cities because they couldn't think of something better to do. O&D on these and similar routes must warrant it, together with such connections as may be provided from cities unique to the respective hubs (though I have a hard time imagining all that many passengers flying MYR-YVR or FCA-PVD). That said, the models of air commerce in vogue today would incline one to believe that additional frequencies on smaller equipment would improve yields for business travelers who prefer a choice of flight times.

While MSP and DTW are, of course, hubs for DL -- with all the magic that concept offers for the traveler and the bottom line -- it strikes me that it's worth pointing out that they are both surprisingly important O&D markets in their own right. Even without connections, quite a bit of these flights would most likely remain profitable -- one thinks of the frequent service from both MSP and DTW to the likes of LGA, DCA, LAX, PHL, SEA, and so forth. Further, DL appears to have been successful so far in defending these (presumably) high-yield routes; but this defensive process is by necessity ongoing. Business travelers on, let us say, DCA-MSP (a great personal favorite) have their choice of connections through ORD on AA and UA; PHL on US; and CLE and EWR on CO. Thus, Delta must prove itself to be the first-choice carrier on such routes with excellent timetables as well as competitive hard and soft product.

Prior to the merger, I had sometimes thought that NW would benefit from moving Asia flying from DTW to MSP -- East Coast connections are really just as good through MSP as DTW; connections from the Midwest (MKE, CHI, MCI, STL, etc.) are arguably better through MSP; and with the general weakness of Michigan's economy and the relative robustness of Minnesota's, one might think profits would be higher ex-MSP. Still, perhaps corporate contracts with Detroit-based firms made KIX, NGO, and the second NRT flight sufficiently lucrative (and it's hard to argue with the superiority of the DTW terminal facilities -- not that MSP is bad; DTW is just better).

Finally, I suspect that since in many ways DTW and MSP "mirror" each other, DL uses them to enhance operational flexibility (both in the event of major disruptions, such as bad weather, and for individual stranded passengers -- "Hey, Mr Skyteam Elite, you missed your PHL-DTW-SFO flight by three minutes? No problem, we've got a flight via MSP in half an hour").

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: floridaflyboy
Posted 2010-07-08 06:54:48 and read 11573 times.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
Northwest cities like BIL, GEG, BZN -- is it just me or does it look a lot higher than it's been in recent summers?

While much better than last summer, BIL is still not at its peak. In the summer of 2008, NW ran 2x A320, 1x A319 and 1x CRJ to BIL. Would love it if they'd go back to year-round mainline to BIL.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: VC10DC10
Posted 2010-07-08 07:39:19 and read 11261 times.

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 23):
While much better than last summer, BIL is still not at its peak.

Thanks for the info, floridaflyboy. Hadn't realized that in 2008 BIL had that much service.

That said, I suppose we could agree that BIL had its peak in the 1980s... the August 1982 Northwest Orient system timetable shows the following daily service departing BIL (hat tip to departedflights.com):

BIS 2x 727
BZN 3x 727
ORD 1x 727
FAR 1x 727
GTF 1x D10; 2x 727
HLN 1x 727
MSP 1x D10; 1x 727

Not too shabby.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Buddys747
Posted 2010-07-08 08:01:36 and read 11219 times.

MDT-DTW is all CRJ. However, there is a DC9-4 in the schedule from 7/15-7/27. Kind of odd.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Meteorologist
Posted 2010-07-08 10:12:36 and read 10479 times.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
Fantastic post, DLHFLYER! Great stuff. I was surprised to see the increase in frequencies and seats to the old, traditional "northwest" Northwest cities like BIL, GEG, BZN -- is it just me or does it look a lot higher than it's been in recent summers?

I've been in GEG for 4 years now, and capacity this summer on MSP-GEG is more than I've ever seen. 3x M90, 1 A320 is definitely more than than past combinations of 3 A319/A320s. However, DL is cutting the capacity come the fall/winter to 1CR9 and 1M90 if I recall, which would make it the lowest capacity I've ever seen on the route. That's not to mention they are getting rid of the evening departure from MSP to GEG, which has always been on the schedules I've seen. They've made the fall schedule totally useless for business that's coming from anywhere other than MSP, as you'd have to leave far too early to get anything more than half a day in. I guess we take some good with some bad?

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-08 10:33:22 and read 10458 times.

Remember that they also have SLC to serve many of these markets out west like GEG, BIL,BZM

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: RobertS975
Posted 2010-07-08 10:44:30 and read 10393 times.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 24):
That said, I suppose we could agree that BIL had its peak in the 1980s... the August 1982 Northwest Orient system timetable shows the following daily service departing BIL (hat tip to departedflights.com):

BIS 2x 727
BZN 3x 727
ORD 1x 727
FAR 1x 727
GTF 1x D10; 2x 727
HLN 1x 727
MSP 1x D10; 1x 727

Not too shabby.

I am amazed to learn that NW flew DC10s into stations like BIL and GTF!

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Meteorologist
Posted 2010-07-08 11:08:31 and read 10259 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 27):
Remember that they also have SLC to serve many of these markets out west like GEG, BIL,BZM

This is true. I guess GEG-SLC has seen quite the upgauge for the fall relative to normal. GEG-SLC goes from 4x CR9, 1x M90, 1x 738, 1x CRJ this summer to 3x CR9, 2x 738, 1x CR7, 1x CRJ...which I believe would be much more capacity than in the past. I wasn't a huge DL flyer before the merger, so I can't be certain...but it seems the non-CRJ-100/200 flights to SLC have increased markedly. Looking at the booking engine for DL out of GEG, though, I'd say the extra passengers are coming directly from the AS codeshares. DL doesn't codeshare on AS/QX nearly to the degree out of here that NW used to.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: ckfred
Posted 2010-07-08 11:16:07 and read 10193 times.

What I find interesting is that it wasn't that many years ago that NW's service from both hubs to ORD and MDW was all mainline and even included 757s.

I know that the downsizing of aircraft between Chicago and DTW by all three legacy carriers, UA, AA, and NW/DL, has a lot to do with the economy in Michigan, including troubles with the Big Three automakers.

Is the downsizing of aircraft between MSP and Chicago a result of Southwest entering the MDW-MSP market?

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: floridaflyboy
Posted 2010-07-08 12:27:36 and read 9857 times.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 24):
Thanks for the info, floridaflyboy. Hadn't realized that in 2008 BIL had that much service.

That said, I suppose we could agree that BIL had its peak in the 1980s... the August 1982 Northwest Orient system timetable shows the following daily service departing BIL (hat tip to departedflights.com):

BIS 2x 727
BZN 3x 727
ORD 1x 727
FAR 1x 727
GTF 1x D10; 2x 727
HLN 1x 727
MSP 1x D10; 1x 727

Not too shabby.

Very impressive. I I would love to have seen NW's ops in Billings back in those days. They also flew the DC-10 from BIL-ORD for a period.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2010-07-08 12:33:39 and read 9837 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 30):
Is the downsizing of aircraft between MSP and Chicago a result of Southwest entering the MDW-MSP market?

I'm guessing it is. It must be a tough route with DL, UA, AA, and WN. Southwest must be taking most of the o&d with the legacies taking more connecting traffic.

But the real interesting thing over the last few years has been the move by many carriers away from Midway. United/American moving away from Midway made sense but Continental has dropped it and Airtran has shrunk at Midway. Does anybody in Chicago know why? I've heard O'Hare is closer to the loop but Midway is closer to a lot of parts in Chicago or so it seems. Is Southwest killing everyone at Midway?

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PGNCS
Posted 2010-07-08 12:55:12 and read 9666 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 2):
uoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Who said there's a competition? NW certainly didn't operate the hubs as competitors.

Well, maybe that's not the right word but there is parody in these hubs in that they both have a similar number of flights.

You mean parity, I presume?

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 12):
In short, you did the hard work and I want to know what you think. And I'd like to see some additional data that supports you POV.

Great start!

I agree. There is a lot of data, but raw data needs interpretation. What do you make of all this, DLHFLYER?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
What do you think about the future potential of each one of the hubs ? Do their future expansion will face the other hub "area of influence" ?

Great question.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2010-07-08 13:44:05 and read 9445 times.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 33):
What do you make of all this, DLHFLYER?

Well, I stated my general observations in the first post. Really, I decided to post this so people SMARTER than me could express their thoughts. I guess, to me, the data shows that both hubs have different uses, but their is overlap that creates some competition between these hubs. Overall, I would say that the data shows vitality in these two hubs.

What do YOU think?

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 12):
but you kind of sound like an unsophisticated consultant or a first year associate at McKinsey or Booz and Company

You're right. I'm an 18 year old kid posting data into a forum where others can express their thoughts and reactions as a forum is meant for, while my observations - as simple as they may be - give you my take on the data.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: AADC10
Posted 2010-07-08 14:02:45 and read 9315 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
- Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320’s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90’s replacing the Airbus’s but there are still a lot of Airbus’s at MSP.

Unless there is a compelling reason to switch aircraft types they will move slowly to other hubs because that is where the mechanics certified for the Airbus are as well as the pilot base. These can be moved but the benefit has to outweigh the costs. Moving slowly reduces the cost.

DL really needed stronger hubs other than ATL. SLC and CVG do not really have the O&D airlines like to see in a hub.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-08 14:08:40 and read 9306 times.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
Business travelers on, let us say, DCA-MSP (a great personal favorite) have their choice of connections through ORD on AA and UA; PHL on US; and CLE and EWR on CO. Thus, Delta must prove itself to be the first-choice carrier on such routes with excellent timetables as well as competitive hard and soft product.

For business travel, corporate contracts and nonstops usually trump most else in competitive markets. Pretty easy for DL to command a majority of traffic with the nonstops on the route.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 22):
Prior to the merger, I had sometimes thought that NW would benefit from moving Asia flying from DTW to MSP -- East Coast connections are really just as good through MSP as DTW; connections from the Midwest (MKE, CHI, MCI, STL, etc.) are arguably better through MSP; and with the general weakness of Michigan's economy and the relative robustness of Minnesota's, one might think profits would be higher ex-MSP. Still, perhaps corporate contracts with Detroit-based firms made KIX, NGO, and the second NRT flight sufficiently lucrative (and it's hard to argue with the superiority of the DTW terminal facilities -- not that MSP is bad; DTW is just better).

A few comments on this:
1) NW tried many additional routes to Asia from MSP in the 80's and early 90's (with 747's) and ultimately either cancelled or moved the routes to DTW
2) In the mid/late 90's, the economy was going strong across the country, and Detroit was doing very well. The Big 3 couldn't build enough SUVs and they were making a ton of money because the economy was strong and people were buying cars. DTW at the time was arguably stronger economically than MSP. This is the time that NW made the commitment to the Worldgateway, and planned it to be the cornerstone of their international network
3) Facilities are far more superior than MSP to act as an Asian gateway
4) DTW is better located to the Eastern half of the country than MSP, and has more flights to the East coast/Southeast than MSP
5) Even still, auto industry ties to Asia (from the US-based autos and Asian manufacturers) still drives a decent amount of traffic to/from DTW to Asia

Quoting ckfred (Reply 30):
I know that the downsizing of aircraft between Chicago and DTW by all three legacy carriers, UA, AA, and NW/DL, has a lot to do with the economy in Michigan, including troubles with the Big Three automakers.

To an extend you can say the auto industry, but it is also due to the larger picture of reduced capacity across the network, competition from WN, the legacies walking away from low-yield traffic, and the ability to drive or take the train between the two. AA and UA have particularly cut back in the DTW-ORD market.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 33):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
What do you think about the future potential of each one of the hubs ? Do their future expansion will face the other hub "area of influence" ?

Great question.

The US domestic market is a mature market. There isn't going to be rapid amounts of expansion from either of these hubs until the economy picks up. There is always the ability to 'connect the dots' and offer nonstops more to suit O&D in certain markets. DL is going to continually tweak routes/markets.

One of the bigger questions is what is going to happen with the retirement of the Saab fleet, and the removal of more 50 seat RJs from the fleet.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 34):
I guess, to me, the data shows that both hubs have different uses, but their is overlap that creates some competition between these hubs.

There is no 'competition' between hubs. What are they competing for? DL sets the schedules and determines exactly where they want to fly and how they want to funnel connections. There is no winning or losing, its all how DL wants to set up its network.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: VC10DC10
Posted 2010-07-08 15:54:03 and read 8916 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 36):

1) NW tried many additional routes to Asia from MSP in the 80's and early 90's (with 747's) and ultimately either cancelled or moved the routes to DTW

Sad but true. HKG and OSA/KIX, right?

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 36):

2) In the mid/late 90's, the economy was going strong across the country, and Detroit was doing very well. The Big 3 couldn't build enough SUVs and they were making a ton of money because the economy was strong and people were buying cars. DTW at the time was arguably stronger economically than MSP. This is the time that NW made the commitment to the Worldgateway, and planned it to be the cornerstone of their international network
3) Facilities are far more superior than MSP to act as an Asian gateway

Have to agree with you, despite my Twin-Cities-booster spirit.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: gaystudpilot
Posted 2010-07-08 16:17:02 and read 8817 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 34):
You're right. I'm an 18 year old kid posting data into a forum where others can express their thoughts and reactions as a forum is meant for, while my observations - as simple as they may be - give you my take on the data.

To be clear, it's good work. I'm sure you're smarter than an unsophisticated consultant or first year associate at McKinsey or Booz and Company.

[Edited 2010-07-08 16:20:59]

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: peanuts
Posted 2010-07-08 19:22:08 and read 8317 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):

Great work! It seems tedious, the work you did, but it gives some of us a realistic picture of what is going on in the Midwest. (I give you credit, other kids play Xbox all day...)

MSP and DTW were the engines for NW. They work extremely effective in tandem. Some tenants at ORD can only envy a MSP/DTW combo, hence, DL went after it.
Granted, Chicago is a huge market in and of itself but ORD especially has also lots of (inter)national competion.

O&D at MSP is VERY valuable. The locals (not including the local media of course...   ) in MSP and surroundings truly appreciate a hometown airline. They do not hesitate to pay premium for nonstop service. Minneapolis/St. Paul "quality of life" index always ranks fairly high.

DTW should count its blessings on the car industry and its geographic location. The terminal and location makes it all work.

From DL's perspective: no competition between MSP and DTW.

From the local political offices' perspective in MN and MI, definitely some competition. DL will use it to their advantage, fully.  

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: ericaasen
Posted 2010-07-08 21:15:33 and read 8161 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 32):
But the real interesting thing over the last few years has been the move by many carriers away from Midway. United/American moving away from Midway made sense but Continental has dropped it and Airtran has shrunk at Midway. Does anybody in Chicago know why? I've heard O'Hare is closer to the loop but Midway is closer to a lot of parts in Chicago or so it seems. Is Southwest killing everyone at Midway?

Well, MDW is not an easy airport to get to or from. ORD is a lot easier to get downtown. You can either hop on the blue line or the Kennedy and 30 min later you're downtown. Also Chicago's 'beltway' I-294 is basically on the eastern fence line so it's a lot easier to get from ORD to someplace else in the Chicago area. Granted MDW is close to a highway, but you still have to drive over city streets to get to probably the worst highway in Chicago, and it'll take 30-45 minutes not during rush hour to get to I-294. MDW does have a subway line to get downtown, but it's probably not the safest one in the world. Plus, MDW's got a reputation in Chicago of being the 'poor' airport. For years the terminal at MDW was hideous. The new one is as good as anything at ORD, and even better than T2 at ORD.

I also think there's more competition from ORD with UA and AA hubs there so there are some lower prices. WN really does dominate MDW, it might as well be called a hub for WN. So they don't really have much competition out of MDW so if you compare prices from ORD or MDW to LAS or MCO there isn't much difference.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2010-07-08 21:17:50 and read 8146 times.

Quoting ericaasen (Reply 40):
For years the terminal at MDW was hideous. The new one is as good as anything at ORD, and even better than T2 at ORD.

I miss the "old" MDW. Sure, it was a sh*thole, but it had soul...

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2010-07-09 02:32:26 and read 8025 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 32):
But the real interesting thing over the last few years has been the move by many carriers away from Midway. United/American moving away from Midway made sense but Continental has dropped it and Airtran has shrunk at Midway. Does anybody in Chicago know why? I've heard O'Hare is closer to the loop but Midway is closer to a lot of parts in Chicago or so it seems. Is Southwest killing everyone at Midway?

UA and AA had obvious reasons for leaving MDW, since they would not want to cannibalize traffic away from their ORD hubs. ORD has always been the more prestigious businessperson/wealthy traveler airport, so its not surprising as to why other legacies (US, CO, and most recently DL/NW) have consolidated their operations there as well. ORD's role as the city's prominent primary gateway is also why you see the chic LCCs (B6 and VX) serving/trying to serve that airport instead of MDW.

FL was ready and willing to make MDW into a prominent focus city/hub (a la MKE or BWI) but was unable to acquire the old TZ gates, which WN gobbled up. With limited gate space and WN - the 800 lb gorilla - adding a slew of new destinations and frequencies to utilize its new gates, FL turned its focus to nearby MKE. The rest is history.

ORD is most certainly NOT closer to the Loop, but it is certainly closer to the wealthy Northern suburbs and most of the major suburban business parks (in places like Northbrook, Lake Forest, Lincolnshire, etc.) that are, in terms of companies and economic importance, just as prominent - if not more so - than the Loop. ORD is certainly farther from the city's core (but not by THAT much) but is probably every bit as close to the northern parts of the city (which are home to the vast majority of the city's wealthy residents that have the means to travel) as MDW. Also keep in mind that ORD is served by direct freeway access, whereas getting to MDW requires taking Cicero Avenue - a congested and rather sketchy surface street - for quite a while. While MDW may be closer as the crow flies, it may be quicker (and safer) to get to ORD anyhow.

Is WN killing everyone at MDW? I'd say so. Now that they serve the likes of BOS, LGA, MSP, SFO, and PHL, they offer a comprehensive selection of domestic destinations, excellent frequency of service to the business markets, and they can bolster loads on more marginal routes like TUS, ONT, and JAN with connecting traffic thanks to excellent connectivity.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 39):
DTW should count its blessings on the car industry

It should? Detroit's fortunes are so interwoven with this one volatile industry that the city has suffered a tremendous deal over the years. If anything, putting all their eggs in one basket has come back to bite them, not a blessing by any means...

Quoting ericaasen (Reply 40):
For years the terminal at MDW was hideous. The new one is as good as anything at ORD, and even better than T2 at ORD.

The new MDW terminal puts everything at ORD to shame. It is clean, bright, and airy, with tons of excellent amenities to boot. All three of ORD's domestic terminals are extremely crowded and dilapidated facilities, while T5 is spacious and clean but has virtually nothing to eat or do beyond security. I'll take MDW any day over ORD. Even at its worst, MDW is far better than ORD at its best  .

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Mexicana757
Posted 2010-07-09 09:22:45 and read 7811 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):

THanks for providing us with this kind of information.

Quoting ericaasen (Reply 40):
MDW does have a subway line to get downtown, but it's probably not the safest one in the world. Plus, MDW's got a reputation in Chicago of being the 'poor' airport. For years the terminal at MDW was hideous. The new one is as good as anything at ORD, and even better than T2 at ORD.

        
The blue line is far worse than the orange line. Blue line is much dirtier and noisy than the orange line. When was the last time you rode on both train lines??? The orange line is the newest CTA train line which opened 1993. If you want to speak about safety, more incidents happen on the blue line than the orange line. The orange line gets you to MDW from the loop in 25 minutes.

Also the NEW terminal at MDW is a million times better than what ORD has at the moment. To say the MDW terminal is good as anything at ORD is comparing a rotten apple(ORD) to a nice green edible one(MDW).


Quoting ericaasen (Reply 40):
Granted MDW is close to a highway, but you still have to drive over city streets to get to probably the worst highway in Chicago, and it'll take 30-45 minutes not during rush hour to get to I-294

What highway are you talking about I-55 or I-290?

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 42):

The new MDW terminal puts everything at ORD to shame. It is clean, bright, and airy, with tons of excellent amenities to boot. All three of ORD's domestic terminals are extremely crowded and dilapidated facilities, while T5 is spacious and clean but has virtually nothing to eat or do beyond security. I'll take MDW any day over ORD. Even at its worst, MDW is far better than ORD at its best .

     

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: peanuts
Posted 2010-07-09 10:01:36 and read 7763 times.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 42):
not a blessing by any means...

Let's put it this way: if it wasn't for the car industry, no DTW hub. DTW would be a STL or MCI at best.

So, in spite of Michigan's miserable, one sided economy, DTW should still count it's blessings  

It's location on the map has helped it as well and has given DTW durability.

Other than that, MI has itself to blame for most of it's misery. If any state in the USA is a prime example of the saying: What goes around, comes around, it would be MI.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2010-07-09 10:40:21 and read 7700 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
- Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320%u2019s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90%u2019s replacing the Airbus%u2019s but there are still a lot of Airbus%u2019s at MSP

MSP is still by far the largest Airbus base. DTW is the real loser of the Airbus.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 13):
Since when is there a 777 on the DTW-LAX route?!?!??!

earlier this summer, it continues on to Sydney.

Quoting Meteorologist (Reply 26):
I've been in GEG for 4 years now, and capacity this summer on MSP-GEG is more than I've ever seen. 3x M90, 1 A320 is definitely more than than past combinations of 3 A319/A320s

About 5 years ago NW was running 757s on the GEG route, 3x daily.

For fall I am seeing 1x E75, 1x MD-90, and 1x CR9 MSP-GEG

SLC-GEG this fall is 3x CR9, 1x CR7, 1x CRJ, 2x 738.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: VC10DC10
Posted 2010-07-09 11:52:45 and read 7578 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 45):

About 5 years ago NW was running 757s on the GEG route, 3x daily.

I wish I could find a timetable showing this. I used to attend school in the west and flew GEG-MSP regularly; seemed like the schedule was always 2x 320 daily. Not disputing what you say; I just wish I could see it in black and white.

Cheers

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-09 14:32:11 and read 7451 times.

I have the Summer 2005 PDF file saved on this computer:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 45):
About 5 years ago NW was running 757s on the GEG route, 3x daily.

Not exactly 3 757's per day, but capacity-wise very similar in summer 2005:

Effective June 9th, 2005
NW 614 GEG MSP 7:10a 11:55a 757
NW 612 GEG MSP 9:25a 2:10p 757
NW 610 GEG MSP 1:15p 6:03p 320
NW 2834 GEG MSP 4:20p 9:20p CRJ

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2010-07-09 15:34:27 and read 7371 times.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 46):
seemed like the schedule was always 2x 320 daily.

It was for the most part.

In the summer it ramped up to like more like what the other posters have noted.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-07-09 16:13:47 and read 7330 times.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 41):
miss the "old" MDW. Sure, it was a sh*thole, but it had soul...

I agree it was very easy to get around too. What was the name of the restaurant that was in the old terminal? Kelly's Pub?

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: nwafan20
Posted 2010-07-09 17:38:32 and read 7251 times.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 44):

Let's put it this way: if it wasn't for the car industry, no DTW hub. DTW would be a STL or MCI at best.

So, in spite of Michigan's miserable, one sided economy, DTW should still count it's blessings

It's location on the map has helped it as well and has given DTW durability.

Other than that, MI has itself to blame for most of it's misery. If any state in the USA is a prime example of the saying: What goes around, comes around, it would be MI.

Not quite. DTW, regardless of the automotive industry, is still a sizable area. The city itself is in ruins, but the suburbs are what count. That is where DTW is located, and that is who supplies the traffic. Southeast Michigan is a lot different than most areas in the country. The population spread is much more heavily centered on the suburbs. The suburbs extend for a good 50+ miles outside of the city. Places like Brighton, Howell, Novi, South Lyon, Ann Arbor, Saline, etc. This is where the money is. These towns are 50 miles outside of the city limits, yet boast some of the greatest local economies in the state. Especially Livingston County (Brighton, Howell, Pinckney, Hartland)

If the auto industry wasn't there, other businesses would be. Plain and simple. The strength in DTW is not the city of Detroit, but is instead Southeast Michigan. To claim otherwise is foolish. The Detroit area wasn't built FOR or BECAUSE of the automotive industry, and the economies of the suburbs are doing a lot better than you think. Jobless rates in Livingston county are well below national averages, with a high average income. All the woes of Detroit and the surrounding area are greatly overstated, both here and in the media. Move out here and you will see. It's not bad at all unless you live in the city itself.

[Edited 2010-07-09 17:39:44]

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: dldtw1962
Posted 2010-07-09 19:36:31 and read 7151 times.

I for one would like to see more intrenational flights out of DTW. Does anyone see DL starting DTW- MUC or DTW-DUB, DTW-TLV? I would like to see them increase DTW- LHR flights in the summer time. Just one flight is hard to get
groups one for a tour in Europe. I don't like sending groups thru JFK or ATL to go to Europe. Just some questions.

Chuck

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2010-07-09 21:44:03 and read 7039 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 49):
What was the name of the restaurant that was in the old terminal? Kelly's Pub?

I honestly don't remember... I did spend a LOT of time at (and stumbling out of) Mr. C's on 63rd, though.

Quoting dldtw1962 (Reply 51):
Does anyone see DL starting DTW- MUC or DTW-DUB, DTW-TLV?

MUC maybe. No way for DUB or TLV. JMHO...

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2010-07-09 22:01:01 and read 7046 times.

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 34):

You're right. I'm an 18 year old kid posting data into a forum where others can express their thoughts and reactions as a forum is meant for, while my observations - as simple as they may be - give you my take on the data.

Sorry, stud, but I think he just told you.

Quoting nwafan20 (Reply 50):
Not quite. DTW, regardless of the automotive industry, is still a sizable area. The city itself is in ruins, but the suburbs are what count.

Dude, I grew up there and when I was last back home (in the 'burbs) they're kinda in ruins, too.


But the thing about DTW is that it's an amazing terminal. It is absolutely designed for connections. One of the best and most passenger-friendly terminals in the world. A long building with three tram stops. The tram stops are such that the walk from any one of them to any given gate is quite reasonable, but they are also far apart so as to allow the trams to move quickly. The linear design of the terminal is simple and easy for passengers to understand and mentally map, even if they're just rushing through. The satellite terminal is convenient and lightning quick to access and similarly uncluttered.

I haven't seen the new North terminal. Pity, too. because I may never see it. DL is the only airline that operates SFO-DTW nonstop.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: nwafan20
Posted 2010-07-10 00:35:19 and read 6932 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
Dude, I grew up there and when I was last back home (in the 'burbs) they're kinda in ruins, too.

What suburb? Out here things are looking great.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-07-10 03:03:13 and read 6871 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 34):

You're right. I'm an 18 year old kid posting data into a forum where others can express their thoughts and reactions as a forum is meant for, while my observations - as simple as they may be - give you my take on the data.

Good work kid. You might go far in this industry. Maybe your next project could be CVG vs. MEM   

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: CIDflyer
Posted 2010-07-10 06:56:24 and read 6737 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
But the thing about DTW is that it's an amazing terminal. It is absolutely designed for connections. One of the best and most passenger-friendly terminals in the world.

        

absolutely, it is one of the best, if not THE best I have been in (my other favorite is DFW's Terminal D, reminds me alot of DTW)

Quoting nwafan20 (Reply 50):
The strength in DTW is not the city of Detroit, but is instead Southeast Michigan.

This is true, I have heard or seen data (can't remember off hand where but I am sure if someone googled it you can validate it) that DTW's suburban Oakland County (Birmingham, Rochester Hills, Auburn Hills etc) is one of the wealthiest counties in the country

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: flydreamliner
Posted 2010-07-10 07:22:33 and read 6699 times.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 42):
Quoting peanuts (Reply 39):
DTW should count its blessings on the car industry

It should? Detroit's fortunes are so interwoven with this one volatile industry that the city has suffered a tremendous deal over the years. If anything, putting all their eggs in one basket has come back to bite them, not a blessing by any means...

It is true - when the auto industry was riding high, there was definitely prosperity in SE Michigan. People say "not everything in Detroit is the auto industry," but an awful lot of what isn't the auto industry grew up to support it. There have been structural changes to the US auto industry - and the Detroit of 5, 10, or 15 years ago will never return, but when the dust settles, there will be solid opportunities for new growth.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 45):
Quoting DLHFLYER (Thread starter):
- Minneapolis still has lots of Airbus A319/A320%u2019s. I thought there would be a lot more MD-88/90%u2019s replacing the Airbus%u2019s but there are still a lot of Airbus%u2019s at MSP

MSP is still by far the largest Airbus base. DTW is the real loser of the Airbus.

Which does confuse me. I see MSP functioning as a large-scale domestic connector - and the MD-80/MD-90/757 combo fits the bill. For DTW (and SLC, MEM, etc), the longer-legged, slightly smaller A319/A320 (well, A320 will have seats added yet, no doubt), seem to make more sense for the generally thinner routes operated out of there. Delta is tinkering right now, but I think when all is said and done, they'll find out what NWA knew - MSP cannot be beat for connecting the midwest, midatlantic, and northeast to the west coast.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 45):
Quoting Meteorologist (Reply 26):
I've been in GEG for 4 years now, and capacity this summer on MSP-GEG is more than I've ever seen. 3x M90, 1 A320 is definitely more than than past combinations of 3 A319/A320s

About 5 years ago NW was running 757s on the GEG route, 3x daily.

Meteorologist is right - 3x M90 and 1x A320 are a total of 598 seats/day, which is more than 3x 757, 546 seats a day. The fact that MSP-GEG is up after the merger is amazing given DL's hub at SLC.

Quoting nwafan20 (Reply 50):
If the auto industry wasn't there, other businesses would be. Plain and simple. The strength in DTW is not the city of Detroit, but is instead Southeast Michigan. To claim otherwise is foolish. The Detroit area wasn't built FOR or BECAUSE of the automotive industry, and the economies of the suburbs are doing a lot better than you think. Jobless rates in Livingston county are well below national averages, with a high average income. All the woes of Detroit and the surrounding area are greatly overstated, both here and in the media. Move out here and you will see. It's not bad at all unless you live in the city itself.

The state of Michigan leads the country in unemployment. It's losing population faster than anywhere. The auto industry is by far the largest industry in the private sector economy in SE Michigan. Compared with just about anywhere else, the Detroit metropolitan area (suburbs included) by the numbers is not doing well right now.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):

But the thing about DTW is that it's an amazing terminal. It is absolutely designed for connections. One of the best and most passenger-friendly terminals in the world.

Entirely agreed. It is truly world class in its design and efficiency. NW built - and DL inherited a fantastic airport.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 55):
Good work kid. You might go far in this industry. Maybe your next project could be CVG vs. MEM

I don't think it's CVG vs MEM. If it were, CVG would win, it's city is bigger and has a much stronger economy, it's airport is beautiful, modern and pleasant (three things MEM isn't) and it's not geographically sandwiched between a rock and a hard place (ATL and DFW). CVG saw a draw-down because it's in the shadow of DTW.

Really, the competition was DTW vs CVG. Right now SLC, MSP, and DTW and just jostling for traffic. I think when the dust settles, DTW will have strong int'l routes and a strong banks of flights to support them, with thinner secondary connecting flights to support its regional catchment. MSP will see a huge number of regional flights, backed up with banks of higher volume east-west connecting traffic. SLC will continue to grow as a connecting hub for the mountain west. I think ultimately though, as DTW, MSP, and JFK take on some of what used to be ATL-centric traffic, it will free up the slack at ATL to make MEM unneeded, and giving up that manky old airport will be hardly a loss to DL.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: JetBlueGuy2006
Posted 2010-07-10 08:46:06 and read 6610 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
I haven't seen the new North termina

It is quite nice. It is designed a lot like the DL/SkyTeam terminal, except the jet out down by gate 30, 31 ext (AA). The one drawback is there isn't a tram and not a lot of moving walkways, so it is a hike. The way they designed it though, as with a lot of other place, once you clear security, you are near the middle (gates 12,13, 14, I think (AirTran) ) so it can be a hike, but a definate improvement over the old terminals

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: dldtw1962
Posted 2010-07-10 10:34:43 and read 6503 times.

Yes, Detroit City is falling by the way side right now. But, I refuse to think that this city will die all together. We have
started in a big way of cleaning out all the corrupt elected people. 3 of which are sitting in jail right now. And one is looking at even further jail time. And yes SE Michigan has depended on the auto industry. However, we are returning
these plants into new energy saving type auto's thanks to the State of Michigan and Federal Governments help. Will we
ever be back to the normal way of living as before? NO. But, we will survive. We just have to remember not to put
all of eggs in one basket again.....

As for the new DTW terminal (North) I have flown out of their a few times and I think they missed the boat by not
putting in moving walkways. It's a long walk to UA and AA if you are handicap like I am. But, it is a big improvement
over the old terminal.

JMHO folks. Have a great day

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-07-10 12:34:40 and read 6389 times.

Quoting dldtw1962 (Reply 59):
We have
started in a big way of cleaning out all the corrupt elected people. 3 of which are sitting in jail right now. And one is looking at even further jail time.

Whatever happened to Conyer's wife? Is she in jail yet?

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: gaystudpilot
Posted 2010-07-10 13:03:04 and read 6369 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 34):

You're right. I'm an 18 year old kid posting data into a forum where others can express their thoughts and reactions as a forum is meant for, while my observations - as simple as they may be - give you my take on the data.

Sorry, stud, but I think he just told you.

Not at all doc... I think he did a great job... I just wanted a little more of his "take on the data."

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: ckfred
Posted 2010-07-11 10:17:59 and read 6057 times.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 42):
The new MDW terminal puts everything at ORD to shame. It is clean, bright, and airy, with tons of excellent amenities to boot. All three of ORD's domestic terminals are extremely crowded and dilapidated facilities, while T5 is spacious and clean but has virtually nothing to eat or do beyond security. I'll take MDW any day over ORD. Even at its worst, MDW is far better than ORD at its best

The one problem with MDW is that it has only 1 security checkpoint, and I don't think the City has done anything to add additional walkways over Cicero Avenue to solve the problem.

On the other hand, there are multiple checkpoints in each terminal at ORD. In T3, there are two large checkpoints, a smaller checkpoint down by G. Another small checkpoint down by L, and an elite checkpoint. That's 5 checkpoints for 1 terminal.

I would also argue that the renovation of the the terminal areas in T2 and T3 have made ticketing and baggage claims more open and airy. I would agree that the concourses in T1, T2, and T3 could stand a major makeover.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-07-11 10:26:49 and read 6054 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 62):
The one problem with MDW is that it has only 1 security checkpoint, and I don't think the City has done anything to add additional walkways over Cicero Avenue to solve the problem.

I don't know how long it's been since you've used MDW, but they have drastically increased the number of lanes (by expanding it north). I can't remember the last time I waited more than about 5 minutes at MDW; I'd say it's generally faster than Terminal 1 and probably faster than Terminal 2 as well.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Meteorologist
Posted 2010-07-11 15:37:03 and read 5858 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 47):
Not exactly 3 757's per day, but capacity-wise very similar in summer 2005:

Effective June 9th, 2005
NW 614 GEG MSP 7:10a 11:55a 757
NW 612 GEG MSP 9:25a 2:10p 757
NW 610 GEG MSP 1:15p 6:03p 320
NW 2834 GEG MSP 4:20p 9:20p CRJ

Wow, that was right before I moved out to GEG. They definitely didn't run a schedule that heavy from 06 onward. It was usually always some combo of 2x A320 year round, with an off/on additional A319 in the summer. This year sort of blew me away, especially looking at the capacity they're running to SLC.

I'd hazard to guess, and surely others could speculate as well, that UA cutting the ORD flight to seasonal a year or two ago and from mainline to an E170 when it runs has left a lot of eastward demand from GEG that can only now be filled by the MSP flights. People here don't care to fly through SLC, DEN, or SEA to go to the Northeast as they are all a bit out of the way, so it seems MSP gets really the vast majority of that traffic now.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2010-07-11 16:35:01 and read 5792 times.

Quoting Meteorologist (Reply 64):
People here don't care to fly through SLC, DEN, or SEA to go to the Northeast as they are all a bit out of the way,

...not to mention the fact that many cities on the east coast, even some relatively large ones like BDL or ORF, have little or no service to SLC or DEN.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-11 19:59:10 and read 5666 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
Dude, I grew up there and when I was last back home (in the 'burbs) they're kinda in ruins, too.

Dude, I live here. Some of the inner-ring, more blue-collar suburbs are facing the same issues as Detroit with crime and foreclosures, but not every where is the sky falling. Not every economic class was hit evenly in Detroit, or anywhere in the country for that matter.

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 56):
This is true, I have heard or seen data (can't remember off hand where but I am sure if someone googled it you can validate it) that DTW's suburban Oakland County (Birmingham, Rochester Hills, Auburn Hills etc) is one of the wealthiest counties in the country

Back in the late 90's, yes Oakland County was one of the top 5 wealthest counties in the country. Back in the go-go 90's when the economy was strong and the auto industry was strong, Oakland county was a hot bed of economic growth. Over the past 10 years Oakland has slipped some, but its still a lot better off than the majority of places in this country.

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 57):
It is true - when the auto industry was riding high, there was definitely prosperity in SE Michigan. People say "not everything in Detroit is the auto industry," but an awful lot of what isn't the auto industry grew up to support it. There have been structural changes to the US auto industry - and the Detroit of 5, 10, or 15 years ago will never return, but when the dust settles, there will be solid opportunities for new growth

Truth to be told, the bottom started falling out in 2001 and just continued to slide since then. Michigan and the auto industry has been in decline since 2001 and 2008-2009 was just when everything literally hit the fan. Things have stabilized around here over the past year or so, not getting worse, but gradually looking better. It is going to be a different future around here, but if we can survive what we've been through we'll be okay. Right now the biggest problem is the shake-out in the public sector of school districts and municipal budgets due to declining property values. That is not a unique problem to Southeastern Michigan though, that is everywhere in the country right now.

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 58):
It is quite nice. It is designed a lot like the DL/SkyTeam terminal,

To an extent yes, they tried to incorporate some of the design featuers, but they also had to keep the terminal as cheap as possible.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: Meteorologist
Posted 2010-07-12 00:54:14 and read 5518 times.

Quoting flydreamliner (Reply 57):
The state of Michigan leads the country in unemployment. It's losing population faster than anywhere. The auto industry is by far the largest industry in the private sector economy in SE Michigan. Compared with just about anywhere else, the Detroit metropolitan area (suburbs included) by the numbers is not doing well right now.

Not to nit-pick, but this is no longer true. Nevada leads the pack now...followed by Michigan and California...as of June per CNBC and the Dept of Labor. It seems Nevada made a lot of the same mistakes Michigan made over the past decade being too reliant on a single industry.

Also, being someone who grew up in Metro Detroit and visits 6-10 times a year to this day, the fortunes of Detroit and its richer NW burbs are not nearly as intertwined as the majority on here seem to believe. There is still a ridiculous amount of disposable income in many areas around town. That said, as recently as a few years ago, the county executive of Oakland County, Brooks Patterson, was actively touting FNT as the best regional gateway for business in Oakland County. Because my family is basically equi-distant from FNT and DTW, I'd pick FNT every time if the cost was the same. I'd certainly believe the I'm not the only one, and that effect hurts DTW's numbers as well. Even though DTW is relatively easy to get in and out of, it's nowhere near as easy as FNT, and its location is very far from the $$$ core of Metro Detroit.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: SNCntry32
Posted 2010-07-12 07:20:12 and read 5391 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
Dude, I grew up there and when I was last back home (in the 'burbs) they're kinda in ruins, too.

Dude, I lived in Canton for three years. Yep, Wayne County, and it was great...

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: hjulicher
Posted 2010-07-12 10:09:05 and read 5274 times.

Quoting Meteorologist (Reply 67):
Because my family is basically equi-distant from FNT and DTW, I'd pick FNT every time if the cost was the same. I'd certainly believe the I'm not the only one, and that effect hurts DTW's numbers as well. Even though DTW is relatively easy to get in and out of, it's nowhere near as easy as FNT, and its location is very far from the $$$ core of Metro Detroit.

I'd never fly out of FNT and I live in Bloomfield Hills. Despite living near I-75 it takes much longer to drive to Flint, not too mention the distance is much greater than getting to DTW. Furthermore, for those discerning travelers, it's much better to get on a direct flight out of DTW than connect in FNT. Where can you fly from FNT direct? ATL, MSP, CLE, ORD?

Detroit has a lot more opportunity to grow giving that the economy is at it's lowest period right now. This decade has been hard on Detroit, so even though MSP provide marvelous traffic flows, there's not a lot of room for growth, whereas DTW can really pick up the slack.

Given the consolidation in the industry, unless US airlines decide to go for 1 mega hub, I don't see DTW loosing it's status as a hub as long as Delta remains. However, should further consolidation come, I think that MSP, SLC, MEM could easily loose their HUB status.

The auto industry is not going to get any smaller at this point. All the Big 3 have reached their lows and I think that the economy is diversifying and that the number of travelers going to/out of Detroit will grow.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2010-07-12 10:15:08 and read 5263 times.

Quoting hjulicher (Reply 69):
Detroit has a lot more opportunity to grow giving that the economy is at it's lowest period right now. This decade has been hard on Detroit, so even though MSP provide marvelous traffic flows, there's not a lot of room for growth, whereas DTW can really pick up the slack.

Given the consolidation in the industry, unless US airlines decide to go for 1 mega hub, I don't see DTW loosing it's status as a hub as long as Delta remains. However, should further consolidation come, I think that MSP, SLC, MEM could easily loose their HUB status.

MSP has plenty of room for growth; not including the MSP2020 plan that will add more than 30 additional gates. DL has nearly as many gates at MSP as they do at ATL, they could nearly double their flights there without many issues.

And MSP losing its hub status? MSP that has higher yields and O&D than DTW. Why would they shut down their second largest O&D airport and a large hub with no competition? What would pick up the slack, DTW? People seem to forget that MSP was NW's larger frequent flier base, and is likely now 2nd in the DL system after ATL. MSP is not in the same league as STL or PIT were; MSP boasts a flourishing and growing economy, a large O&D base, next to no low-fare competition, and no airports within hundreds of miles that provide significant air service. MSP's not going anywhere, contrary to what so many on a.net want or seem to believe.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DLHFLYER
Posted 2010-07-12 12:44:28 and read 5182 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 70):
MSP that has higher yields and O&D than DTW.

Does MSP still have the high yields that everyone used to talk about? I know fares have dropped a lot due to Southwest; articles (http://twincities.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2010/03/01/story1.html?b=1267419600%5E2948121) have talked about this. Now, fares could drop significantly with yields still being higher than Detroit, but either way, dropping fares isn't something the hub carrier would want to see (I would think).

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 70):
MSP boasts a flourishing and growing economy

     
The Twin Cities economy is probably better than Detroit even though Detroit is a bigger city.

I wonder if part of the Twin Cities success as an airline hub - and in many other industries - is its seclusion relative to other major cities. It's not like people from the Twin Cities will consider driving to other airports; they're flying out of Minneapolis. So many major cities are close to others, like Detroit and Cleveland, Milwaukee and Chicago, Washington and Baltimore etc. My guess is that airports like the ones just mentioned bleed traffic hurting traffic to a certain extent.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: hjulicher
Posted 2010-07-12 13:20:23 and read 5150 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 70):
MSP has plenty of room for growth; not including the MSP2020 plan that will add more than 30 additional gates. DL has nearly as many gates at MSP as they do at ATL, they could nearly double their flights there without many issues.

I take it you didn't really undestand the meaning of my post. I didn't say MSP was weak, or a bad frequent flier base. Those are all valid arguments, but given greater consolidation in the industry, maybe not this round, but next time it happens, I don't see the airports I mentioned winning unless there is a change in focus by the management at Delta.

Furthermore, I did non mean that MSP was at full capacity, I meant that since the economy is robust in MSP that the limit of growth at MSP is less than the possibilities at Detroit since over the past decade, DTW has lost a lot due to the weakened economy, and it's not reaching full potential at this moment. The likelihood of things getting better in Detroit and increasing air travel is much more likely in an area that has gone through a depression, whereas despite the great performance and strong economy of MSP, it isn't likely that traffic will pick-up so much, because not much was lost to begin with.

Lastly, if DTW and MSP are basically equal at this point, then the possibilities for Detroit to really grow and pick up traffic are greater since the weakened economy of the past 10 years has dampered the amount of traffic in Detroit.

Lastly, and this is to MSP's advantage, but MSP has no competiting airports in the vicinity which can steal traffic. FNT is poised so that it actually offers for instance direct flights to Florida that can steal certain traffic away from Detroit. Same with TOL. I'm not sure, but could Rochester, MN have the same ability to steal traffic away?

MSP is a great airport and serves well as a hub, but so was CVG and it worked. If airlines had to trim away, they do so where there is overlap. IN MY OPINION given increased consolidation (next round) I say MSP, SLC, MEM have less to offer. It all depends though how MSP and DET develop in the next years.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2010-07-12 14:07:32 and read 5111 times.

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 68):

Dude, I lived in Canton for three years. Yep, Wayne County, and it was great...

Well, I can tell you this. Metro Detroit in 1980 is very different from Metro Detroit in 2010.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 66):

Dude, I live here. Some of the inner-ring, more blue-collar suburbs are facing the same issues as Detroit with crime and foreclosures, but not every where is the sky falling. Not every economic class was hit evenly in Detroit, or anywhere in the country for that matter.

It's still bad in the suburbs compared to before. Even the White Collar folks have seen a downturn. Those older folks who are trying to sell their homes in Bloomfield Hills and Township, for example, are having a hard time finding buyers.

Quoting dldtw1962 (Reply 59):
Yes, Detroit City is falling by the way side right now. But, I refuse to think that this city will die all together.

If Detroit is lucky, it will pull a "Pittsburgh" and take the urban greening and farming thing seriously. The old buildings that have laid abandoned for decades have to go. There needs to be a push to re-urbanize a completely suburban populace. Most importantly, the dream of Detroit as a major city, a worthy competitor of Chicago, needs to go. It's going to be a long time before Detroit rises to the level of a major city again.

DTW may help fuel that growth, though, by providing a major attraction to businesses considering settling in the Metro Area.

In the mean time, a primarily transfer airport with stellar service for the minority of pax. who are O&D is not a bad thing.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-07-12 16:32:45 and read 4998 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 70):

MSP has plenty of room for growth; not including the MSP2020 plan that will add more than 30 additional gates. DL has nearly as many gates at MSP as they do at ATL, they could nearly double their flights there without many issues.

If MSP is like ATL then you don't want 1,000 flights there. Delta needs more gate in Atlanta......ALOT more gates. SGC will really help Delta out, and IMHO get the hub back to around 1,200 flight per day.

Quoting hjulicher (Reply 69):
MSP, SLC,

Wont happen. Doesn't matter who Delta buys, SLC and MSP wont go anywhere. Just like DEN wont go anywhere for UA. Your talking about just giving up the western/midwest here. SEA/LAX can NOT replace that. You can't replace the flow that SLC gives. Same for MSP. (and i'm really not sure what its is with a.net wanting to replace SLC......the hub has done nothing but grow post merger. Its almost to 100 mainline flights again.)

Quoting hjulicher (Reply 69):
MEM

Maybe. It is pretty much just what CVG was a few years ago, 50-75 M/L flights and 200 or so RJ flights.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 70):

+1

Quoting hjulicher (Reply 72):

MSP is a great airport and serves well as a hub, but so was CVG and it worked.

Not the same thing. 1) CVG didn't make the money MSP does. MSP is the 2nd most money making hub in the system. (after ATL) 2) MSP isn't all RJs. (IIRC its a little of 50% M/L)

Quoting hjulicher (Reply 72):
I don't see the airports I mentioned winning unless there is a change in focus by the management at Delta

Oh? and what are they focused on now? Is this one of those deals "oh they aren't adding 15 TATL flights so they MUST hate MSP"? Delta doesn't need to change what is making money.

Oh, and ALOT of the stuff Delta has added to DTW lately (SNA/SMF come to mind) are being cut.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: VictorKilo
Posted 2010-07-12 16:53:37 and read 4969 times.

Two predictions about DTW from a Detroiter who works in the auto industry:

The auto industry is smaller than it was ten years ago, but it is much more global. The automakers have gotten better at sharing their designs across the globe, and suppliers have developed a global manufacturing presence to support the global integration at automakers. This is why I think you will see DTW keep flights NW/DL have added to the network in the past few years - ICN, PVG, and GRU - that link DTW with global automotive centers, especially global automotive engineering centers, worldwide, at the expense of other flights where the business link has mostly gone away (BA's LHR flights, for example).

I also see a continued reduction in service from DTW to Florida, Arizona, and Nevada. As PSU.DTW.SCE said, the economy of Michigan has been on a down swing since 2001. Many workers, from teachers who couldn't get teaching jobs in the suburbs to union electricians with an estimated two year wait before they return to work in Detroit to recent college graduates looking for their first job, left Michigan to take jobs elsewhere, temporary and permanent positions, positions in areas that were booming in the 2001-2008 timeframe - places like Florida, Arizona, and Nevada. Now that Nevada has eclipsed Michigan in unemployment, that union electrician may not be able to find a job here in Detroit, but after he was laid off from his job building the Cosmopolitan or CityCenter or Encore, he's not finding his next job in Las Vegas, and he no longer needs to fly home every two weeks to see his family.

All that to say that I think the capacity at DTW may shift, but I continue to see DTW, along with MSP, play key roles in the DL network.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-12 17:26:21 and read 4921 times.

Quoting Meteorologist (Reply 67):
Because my family is basically equi-distant from FNT and DTW, I'd pick FNT every time if the cost was the same. I'd certainly believe the I'm not the only one, and that effect hurts DTW's numbers as well. Even though DTW is relatively easy to get in and out of, it's nowhere near as easy as FNT, and its location is very far from the $$$ core of Metro Detroit.
Quoting hjulicher (Reply 69):
I'd never fly out of FNT and I live in Bloomfield Hills. Despite living near I-75 it takes much longer to drive to Flint, not too mention the distance is much greater than getting to DTW. Furthermore, for those discerning travelers, it's much better to get on a direct flight out of DTW than connect in FNT. Where can you fly from FNT direct? ATL, MSP, CLE, ORD?

FNT only really becomes a viable option for those north of M-59. And, as hjulucher says, it all depends on where one wants to go. If going to one of the limited assortment of nonstop destinations, then FNT can be a good option. However, most places can be reached nonstop from DTW, often with much better schedules. FNT is a viable option for some, but not for all. I live in Birmingham and the only time I've used FNT was to do segment runs (getting 2 more segments per trip to build status quicker thanks to the DTW-FNT legs).

FNT is a viable option for much of mid-Michigan and the FL service there pulls in people from a wide swath, as well as keeps prices much lower than LAN and MBS.

FNT does not canabilize the DTW at all, if anything it pulls in the low-yield/seasonal/leisure traffic that DL really isn't going after these days.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 70):
MSP's not going anywhere, contrary to what so many on a.net want or seem to believe.

I don't understand the facination on A.net with everyone wanting or hoping for the demise of certain hubs......

Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 71):
many major cities are close to others, like Detroit and Cleveland, Milwaukee and Chicago, Washington and Baltimore etc. My guess is that airports like the ones just mentioned bleed traffic hurting traffic to a certain extent.

Driving becomes a more viable option in those cases. People generally aren't driving from DTW to CLE or ORD to catch a flight. They are driving there because that is their destination. You can say that about 100's of city pairs.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 73):
Well, I can tell you this. Metro Detroit in 1980 is very different from Metro Detroit in 2010

Yes that is true. Bad in 1980 the city-proper had more population, that has no exited to the suburbs. Back then most of the metro area fit inside I-275 & M-59.

The world and airline industry is very different now than in 1980 too.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 73):
It's still bad in the suburbs compared to before. Even the White Collar folks have seen a downturn. Those older folks who are trying to sell their homes in Bloomfield Hills and Township, for example, are having a hard time finding buyers

Either way, I don't see a shortage of people in the airport these days, I don't see a shortage of people beginning and ending their trips in DTW.

Real estate is screwed up all over the country, not just in Michigan.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 74):
If MSP is like ATL then you don't want 1,000 flights there. Delta needs more gate in Atlanta......ALOT more gates. SGC will really help Delta out, and IMHO get the hub back to around 1,200 flight per day.

ATL is not going back to 1,200 flight anytime soon, if ever. Not with how DL plans to remove as 50 seat RJs as they do over the next few years. ATL doesn't need to have 1,200 flights a day with DTW and MSP now in the mix. They aren't going to go any fly zillions of 50 seat RJs like they did in the past.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 73):
In the mean time, a primarily transfer airport with stellar service for the minority of pax. who are O&D is not a bad thing.

DTW is not a minority O&D, it still has healthy O&D for a hub. Sure it doesn't have the mega-O&D of NYC, ORD, or LAX but its not like we are talking about CVG, MEM, SLC, STL, or PIT here.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 75):
All that to say that I think the capacity at DTW may shift, but I continue to see DTW, along with MSP, play key roles in the DL network.

Exactly. They both have key roles, that is it.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-07-12 17:45:20 and read 4878 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 76):

ATL is not going back to 1,200 flight anytime soon, if ever. Not with how DL plans to remove as 50 seat RJs as they do over the next few years. ATL doesn't need to have 1,200 flights a day with DTW and MSP now in the mix. They aren't going to go any fly zillions of 50 seat RJs like they did in the past.

ATL didn't have zillions of 50 seaters then. They had 70/76 seaters. The biggest reason we have lost flights is because of the 757 becoming a 727 replacement here. Alot of stations that were M88/737 are now M88/757. DL running alot of short haul 757s has let them cut back on flights, which they *had* to do because of lack of gates. (i mean jeesh they are running like 12 flights per day per gate now.....and like 14 per day a few years ago)

What does MSP have to do with it? We have lost most of our stuff thanks to JFK.......Not DTW/MSP. ATL hasn't really lost flights post merger, they cut the flights back around 07.
Also what do you call soon? SGC wont be done now till 2014-2015 so 5 years from now isn't soon to me.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2010-07-12 18:10:16 and read 4856 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 76):

DTW is not a minority O&D, it still has healthy O&D for a hub. Sure it doesn't have the mega-O&D of NYC, ORD, or LAX but its not like we are talking about CVG, MEM, SLC, STL, or PIT here.

Do you know the numbers? I heard DTW was only 30% O&D.

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-12 19:06:03 and read 4801 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 77):
ATL didn't have zillions of 50 seaters then. They had 70/76 seaters. The biggest reason we have lost flights is because of the 757 becoming a 727 replacement here. Alot of stations that were M88/737 are now M88/757.

What year are you talking about? The 727s have been gone since 2003. The E170s didn't show up until 2005 and they were in limited numbers. The CRJ-900's came even later.

They had CRJs flying all over the place back then, including all those destinations in the Northeast like SCE, BGM, etc.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 77):
What does MSP have to do with it? We have lost most of our stuff thanks to JFK.......Not DTW/MSP. ATL hasn't really lost flights post merger, they cut the flights back around 07.

No, but they can direct some traffic, particularly westbound traffic, over DTW and MSP instead of over ATL just as easily, giving it some relief.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 77):
Also what do you call soon? SGC wont be done now till 2014-2015 so 5 years from now isn't soon to me

Unless something drastically changes in the next year or two, DL won't have the aircraft to operate 1200 flights/day out of ATL, considering the amount of aircraft coming out of the system over the next few years, whth replacement to more or less offset the retirements.

I'm pretty sure we had this debate on here before, but 1,200 flights/day is not happening the current environment for DL at ATL.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 78):
Do you know the numbers? I heard DTW was only 30% O&D.

I'm not going to turn this into a huge science project, but check this post out:
US Hub Local O&D Vs Transfer Traffic Statistics (by LAXintl Dec 4 2008 in Civil Aviation)

It is not 30% its somewhere in the 50% range which is fairly normal for a large hub.

[Edited 2010-07-12 19:07:54]

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: dtw9
Posted 2010-07-12 19:58:17 and read 4735 times.

For the first 6 months of 2009


Daily O&D / total 6 months / total O&D / O&D % / # of Airports

Detroit 33,128 / 15,715,346 / 5,996,168 / 38.20%
Minneapolis 34,399 / 16,173,118 / 6,226,219 / 38.50%
Atlanta 56,645 / 43,008,154 / 10,252,745 / 23.80%
New York 127,801 / 51,883,694 / 23,131,981 / 44.60% /6 airports
Los Angeles 104,723 / 34,789,171 / 18,954,863 / 54.50% /4 airports
Seattle 43,376 / 14,787,443 / 7,851,056 / 53.10%
Salt Lake City 22,696 / 9,988,837 / 4,107,976 / 41.10%
Cincinnati 7,976 / 5,416,171 / 1,443,656 / 26.70%
Memphis 7,408 / 4,855,090 / 1,340,848 / 27.60%

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-07-12 20:06:28 and read 4721 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 79):

What year are you talking about? The 727s have been gone since 2003. The E170s didn't show up until 2005 and they were in limited numbers. The CRJ-900's came even later.

Thanks for pointing that out.........you missed what i meant.
1) Delta had 120+ 727s. only 71 738s.
2) Delta replaced a good chunk of the 727 route out of ATL with 738.M88s, and has now replaced those with 757s.
3) the hub peaked in 06/07. DL had E75s and CR9s (S5 and OO) running all around ATL. Plus EVs CR7s and OH CR7s.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 79):

They had CRJs flying all over the place back then, including all those destinations in the Northeast like SCE, BGM, etc.

they also had CR7/CR9 and E75s.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 79):

Unless something drastically changes in the next year or two, DL won't have the aircraft to operate 1200 flights/day out of ATL, considering the amount of aircraft coming out of the system over the next few years, whth replacement to more or less offset the retirements.

Yes they do. Delta has so much slack in the 737 757 and M88 fleet. Also they are pulling 7 757 4 763s out of VCV/MZJ. Adding a bunch of M90s. The DC9s leaving the fleet are more than covered.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 79):
but 1,200 flights/day is not happening the current environment for DL at ATL.

which is why I said in 2014-2015.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 79):

No, but they can direct some traffic, particularly westbound traffic, over DTW and MSP

hmmmm which is why they haven't done so........but i will give it to you that they did try. Both DTW-SMF/SNA failed.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 79):

I'm pretty sure we had this debate on here before

May have.......don't think so. But i can promise you, Delta is not going to watch ATL build SCG(and as much at WT doesn't like it, it is coming) only to not expand. All that does is opens the door wide open for WN. Also if they pull down MEM they will replace with more ATL flights. (but I don't think that needs to happen, MEM gives Delta a great place to get back into Texas. )

Topic: RE: DL Hubs: DTW Vs MSP
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-07-12 20:49:04 and read 4663 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 81):
they also had CR7/CR9 and E75s.

Again mostly single-class RJs. There were so few E75s and CR9s back during the peak days of ATL.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 81):
Yes they do. Delta has so much slack in the 737 757 and M88 fleet. Also they are pulling 7 757 4 763s out of VCV/MZJ. Adding a bunch of M90s. The DC9s leaving the fleet are more than covered.

Again, not enough to get them to 1200, but more or less maintain status quo.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 81):
hmmmm which is why they haven't done so........but i will give it to you that they did try. Both DTW-SMF/SNA failed.

Not even that far west, they have SLC & ATL to handle a lot of that. I'm talking markets like MKE, MSN, GRR, OMA, YYZ, DSM, etc. DL no longer needs to blanket those markets with an RJ every two hours to ATL. They can route a lot of that traffic over other hubs, depending on the traffic flows. Before someone going PHL-OMA on DL would have to go over ATL (or CVG). Now, DTW and MSP offer viable connections, more so than ATL.


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