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Topic: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2010-07-21 11:22:31 and read 7168 times.

I read this exchange in the "Sukhoi Superjet Vs Embraer E Vs Bombardier CRJ" thread:

Quoting DeltaDawg (Reply 3):
Sukhoi has been around for a lot longer than Embraer. I realize that the Russian aviation industry is somewhat of a running joke amongst most Westerners but one has to admit that Sukhoi might have gotten it right by partnering with Boeing, Thales, Alenia Aero, Honeywell and other "Western" regulars.

Quoting Gipsy (Reply 5):
Yeah big deal if you have the blueprints of the DO728. I don't know why this is always neglected with the typical attitude: doh every plane looks similar... I KNOW that the russians where at Dornier and took all the BLUEPRINTS with them. It's a fact not imagination. 5 abreast seating is just one of the features of the 728. So sad our politicians are damn stupid. Sukhoi has none whatsoever experience in building civil aircraft and doesn't deserve the credit of the design. It's a very capable aircraft and if Sukhoi doesn't screw it up they will make money out of it.

Interesting note from Gipsy. Can anyone substantiate if this is actually the case? I looked at visual similarities, and there is a bit...but is Superjet a completely clean-sheet, or did they actually warm over the FD728?


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Photo © Peter Unmuth-AirTeamImages VAP


...............................................................FD728


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Photo © A J Best


..........................................................Sukhoi Superjet


Thoughts?

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: FLALEFTY
Posted 2010-07-21 17:40:52 and read 6795 times.

The Superjet does resemble the F-D 728, but it also resembles the A318 and the E-Jets.

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: mestrugo
Posted 2010-07-21 18:06:15 and read 6750 times.

Look carefully and you'll realize that there are many differences. On a not-too-deep glance, I can tell flap canoes, for instance, are different. Or the placement of pitot tubes. Or the shape of the wing box (telling about a different internal configuration). And door shapes. And front gear configuration. If the plane was a clone from the Dornier, details like these wouldn't be so obvious.

The Superjet does have the same basic shape and layout than the DO728, but it seems that's about it. And, as mentioned before, it's also very similar to E-Jets and A318s.

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: rampkontroler
Posted 2010-07-21 18:13:35 and read 6727 times.

I see no more resemblance other than they are two similar sized aircraft designed for similar duties. A six passenger car looks like most any other car to me, just like most motorcycles look the same to me too, yet I don't think any one company is going around copying each others cars or bikes. I know these vehicles are all different from each other, but they are not my field of expertise, so superficially they all look the same. Similar duties + similar economics + finite number of planforms = similar appearances. My 2cents!

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2010-07-21 21:39:49 and read 6520 times.

So far, this pretty much confirms what I thought. Gipsy, can you substantiate your claim?

Bombardier also looked at the 728, but walked away (as they also did with Fokker). Interesting to note the Cseries also has a 5 abreast layout....hmmmm.

...I'm just sayin'.  

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: gipsy
Posted 2010-07-22 04:01:34 and read 6218 times.

The Sukhoi is not a clean sheet design. My claim is based on the fact that Dornier should have been sold to a russian consortium. They where at FD and have been granted full access to all DATA they wanted...so they downloaded everything for weeks. The SS is sure not a 100% copy but it is derived from the 928 (728) and resembles it quite remarkably (The SS is derived more from the 928 than the 728). The wings are the same and the flap canoes tough shaped slightly different seem to have the same size and position. The wing box fairings seem different but not so much. So it may be possible to share the same wingbox. As on the SS the NACA duct is missing a steeper inclined wingbox fairing is possible.Then take a look at the curvature of the engine pylons beneath the wing, it's quite the same. Altough the front is different due to an other engine. VHF Antennas have the same position. Window arrangement and positions (Frames) are the same. Tail Cone is identical. Nose section (Positioning of NLG, Shape of cockpit windows except the last side windows [take a look from the front] aerodynamical shape) is nearly 100% identical. But the most important thing are the wings, internal system arrangement, aerodynamical shape and integration of supplier components. Will have a look at how hydraulics where layed out. For example the pitot tubes may be positioned otherwise because of an other supplier and a different system set up.

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: mrocktor
Posted 2010-07-22 05:00:38 and read 6083 times.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 5):
The SS is sure not a 100% copy but it is derived from the 928 (728)

While it may be true that Sukhoi got to look at the details of the FD design, whether they actually worked from that design or made their own (while learning from the FD) is another matter entirely. Saying the plane is "derived" is more than you can claim with the information you provided.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 5):
and resembles it quite remarkably (The SS is derived more from the 928 than the 728).

Well, the FD resembles the E-Jet and the A-318. The 787 looks like them too. Modern twin jets look alike - form follows function.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 5):
The wings are the same

Are they now? Wing design is about the profile of each station. Minute difference in these profiles make a huge difference in performance. Oh, and the russians have one of the premier aerodynamics design institutes. In fact, it is more likely that FD hired them to design the original 728 wing than that the russians would copy FD's desgin.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 5):
VHF Antennas have the same position.

As they do on every small twin. Antenna position is another area where form follows function. In distributing the same antennae on an aircraft of the same basic layout with the same interference restrictions it is no surprise that the solution is the same.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 5):
Tail Cone is identical.

And yet the vertical tail is totally different (SS has a higher aspect ratio and is mounted forward). You can't actually use the same tail structure and mount the vertical stabilizer in a different position. Different loads, different design. If you mean strictly the cone aft of the tail - well, why would anyone have to copy that.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 5):
internal system arrangement

Let me see...

APU in the tail cone - check
Engines under the wing - check
Two flap surfaces per wing driven by torque tube - check
Hydraulic pumps and electric generators in the nacelle - check
Air cycle machines in the wing to fuselage fairing - check
Hot air lines to the wing deice under cabin floor - check
Main avionics bay in the cockpit and forward fuselage area - check
Fuel pumps and valves in the wing box - check
(...)

I guess every single isle twin is a copy of the 737.  

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: rheinwaldner
Posted 2010-07-22 05:19:17 and read 6025 times.

Also there is a big difference of the silhouette at the front door:
The lower lobe of the DO fuselage has still an increasing circumference after the front door. The SS lower lobe reaches the final circumference before the front door.

Other differences: fuselage height above ground & engine pylon...

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2010-07-22 05:19:54 and read 6027 times.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 5):

So you are basically saying that there are visual similarities, but that even so, there are some very obvious differences. From a technical aspect that will mean there is virtually nothing in common between the two aircraft; maybe the material type, or a few components, but that goes for every aircraft on the planet these days.

It's a bit like saying the A400M is a copy of the An-22 because its got four engines and a six bogie MLG.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: gipsy
Posted 2010-07-22 05:35:53 and read 5972 times.

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 6):
And yet the vertical tail is totally different (SS has a higher aspect ratio and is mounted forward). You can't actually use the same tail structure and mount the vertical stabilizer in a different position. Different loads, different design. If you mean strictly the cone aft of the tail - well, why would anyone have to copy that.

It is fairly similar in my view. The 928 Horizontal Stabilizer is also mounted forward as is the 728 ones the 928 would have looked slightly different and even more like the SS. Thats what makes me wonder.

pitot tubes same position

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Fairc...d=c53279a4da50c61787c53111a2a108ca


Look at the hatch circled in red right over the NLG

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Sukho...d=a92f7cd2887a1d45f706d2363dc0b3aa

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Fairc...d=c53279a4da50c61787c53111a2a108ca

Show me an a/c with that amount of similarities. The E jets and 737/A320 look completely different you won't find many layout similarities as hatches etc.


I bet thet even the NLG and MLG are the same ones on the SS and the FD. Have to ask Messier-Dowty. That's what I meant with systems.

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: teahan
Posted 2010-07-22 05:43:23 and read 5939 times.

[............................]

[Edited 2010-07-22 05:46:15]

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: gipsy
Posted 2010-07-22 05:51:43 and read 5904 times.

Erhh....I meant static ports though they seem to be a different make but the little one close to the radom is also nearly identical.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Fairc...d=b2dbda3a568c946f28237937c565cffd

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: mestrugo
Posted 2010-07-22 06:01:45 and read 5886 times.

It seems there's a prejudice against Russian planemakers. So far, the Superjet has been said to be a ripoff of :
The CS series;
The E-Jets;
The Dassault Mercure (!);
And now, the F-D 728!

That is, a copy of every modern plane in its category with engines under the wings (except the A318 or the 737-600, as it seems they don't have as much merit!)

It's nothing new, too... Almost every airliner from the former Soviet Union was said to be a ripoff of an (obviously superior and awesomely awesome) Western plane, even if they had nothing in common but a vague cosmetic resemblance.

It seems the only way the Russians (and Ukranians) have to escape this stigma is by making triplane commercial planes with 14 piston engines and triangular cross-sections. Anything else, like using flaps, is obviously a ripoff!

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: jetlife2
Posted 2010-07-22 06:15:04 and read 5847 times.

I have worked with Sukhoi, in fact stood at the center of the runway in Zhukovsky with the chief pilot during flight tests. I can assure you that Sukhoi is not a running joke amongst Western companies.

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: bonusonus
Posted 2010-07-22 07:36:34 and read 5705 times.

I've always wondered to what extent Soviet-era planes were cloned from European/American a/c. Certainly the Tu-4 was an early example of an exact replica (of the B-29). The question is whether this has persisted. Russian/Soviet companies have certainly produced unique a/c (Il-86 comes to mind), and I doubt that the replication mentality still exists today, but seeing situations like this certainly makes you consider the possibility...

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: gipsy
Posted 2010-07-22 08:02:51 and read 5642 times.

Who is Who?



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Photo © Andreas Zeitler - Flying-Wings





To be honest I have seldomly seen such a resemblance...

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: gipsy
Posted 2010-07-22 08:17:25 and read 5611 times.

Sure the curvature at the front section towards the passenger door is slightly different but I said it is derived and somewhat refined (to the positive) but not a 100% copy (more like 80%   ), but the similarities are appalling. Concerning the wings: Dornier was known for their advanced out of the box designs including supercritical wings like the TNT of the 228. They didn't need the help from sukhoi and concerning civil aviation the expertise was surely a lot greater.

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2010-07-22 08:19:33 and read 5608 times.

Quoting mestrugo (Reply 12):

It seems there's a prejudice against Russian planemakers. So far, the Superjet has been said to be a ripoff of :
The CS series;
The E-Jets;
The Dassault Mercure (!);
And now, the F-D 728!

That is, a copy of every modern plane in its category with engines under the wings (except the A318 or the 737-600, as it seems they don't have as much merit!)

Indeed, following that logic, the CS, E Jets, FD728 and Superjet are all copies of the aborted Shorts FJ/X, the all new regional jet proposed by Shorts, but cancelled in favour of the CRJ when Bombardier took them over!

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: mrocktor
Posted 2010-07-22 09:28:37 and read 5508 times.

Quoting gipsy (Reply 15):
Who is Who?

The tug ruined it...

Quoting gipsy (Reply 15):
To be honest I have seldomly seen such a resemblance...

Interestingly enough, in those very photos you can see:

* The nose segment has several panels on the FD728 (see the cross shaped intersection behind the probes), SSJ is completely different. Notably, different panel divisions even for the same envelope shape (which this is also not), mean completely different loads, completely different fatigue characteristics. So, clearly not a derivative.

* The fuselage tube on the FD728 consists in a panel containing all the windows, plus upper and lower panels (you can see the joint lines above and below the cabin windows), SSJ is completely different (single joint line under the windows). Again, leads to totally different load distribution and fatigue - completely different design.

* The nose landing gear on the FD728 has an articulated linkage forward of the gear strut, SSJ does not. Completely different design

Granted, we are looking at opposite sides of the planes, but knowing a bit about aircraft design it is clear that the SSJ is not a warmed up 728. It is just similar because design objectives and the technology employed is similar.

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2010-07-22 10:46:08 and read 5411 times.

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 18):
Granted, we are looking at opposite sides of the planes, but knowing a bit about aircraft design it is clear that the SSJ is not a warmed up 728. It is just similar because design objectives and the technology employed is similar.

Thanks mrocktor, your explanation certainly seems to clear things up a bit.

Although I wish the Sukhoi Superjet success, and hope that my own countries Cseries does well, it was a sad day when the 728/928 went down the drain.

Does anyone know how the two former 728 fuselages are being used (being purchased for bargain basement prices at the firesale auction)??

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: mrocktor
Posted 2010-07-22 11:30:57 and read 5340 times.

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 19):
Does anyone know how the two former 728 fuselages are being used (being purchased for bargain basement prices at the firesale auction)??

There was talk about the design, tooling and prototypes being bought by some chinese venture (which usually means a stooge for the chinese government). Not sure what came of that.

Truth is, aircraft design is such an intricate process that picking up where someone else left off rarely (if ever) works out. Unless you are buying the brains as well as the schematics or doing changes to an actually completed (and certified) design.

Topic: RE: Is The Sukhoi Superjet A Mild Copy Of F-D 728?
Username: gipsy
Posted 2010-07-23 01:30:25 and read 5053 times.

It really was a sad day...and regarding the current situation on the regional jet market it would have made it's way.

But at least a bit of it survives in the SS   ...

TAC71 (first prototype) is in Göttingen at the DLR and is used for testing cabin accustics and air flows.

TAC72 was bought by a former employee and sits in Oberpfaffenhofen. Without windows, doors and horizontal stabiliser.

Cheers


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