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Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: mckvakk
Posted 2010-08-04 06:40:17 and read 20244 times.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region...crashes-near-north-phoenix-airport

PHOENIX - A plane has crashed near Deer Valley Airport in north Phoenix this morning.

Scott Walker with the Phoenix Fire Department said the plane crashed into City Wide Pest Control, near Deer Valley Airport in the area of 19th Avenue and Deer Valley.

Firefighters can be seen putting out the flames that engulfed the aircraft.

Walker said there are no reports at this time of any injuries.

--- End Quote----

[Edited 2010-08-04 06:40:43]

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2010-08-04 06:45:50 and read 20184 times.

From the title I assumed that someone had purposefully crashed a plane into a building in Phoenix.

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2010-08-04 06:53:09 and read 20095 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 1):
From the title I assumed that someone had purposefully crashed a plane into a building in Phoenix.

I really hope that's not the case, it wont take much for the general public to want to nail the coffin on general aviation.

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-08-04 07:01:44 and read 19995 times.

Quote:
Walker said the pilot was killed in the crash. It is unclear if any more people were on board the plane at the time of the crash.

No mention of an high rise building, so it looks like an accident with no clear land to put it down. If I understand correctly the map I'm looking, he was flying over the city.

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2010-08-04 07:05:50 and read 19931 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
No mention of an high rise building,

Well the one in Texas where the guy went after the IRS earlier this year was only a 3-4 story building and the little plane did quite the number on it...

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: KPHXFlyer
Posted 2010-08-04 07:18:44 and read 19772 times.

The Deer Valley Airport is in a relatively dense suburban area of Phoenix. There's not an abundance of clear land near the airport. What clear land there is, its usually a mountain park.

FWIW, this is the second crash this year from a plane at Deer Valley. In January or so, there was a student pilot killed when she crashed her plane on approach to DVT. She landed about 150 yards from a trailer park. "http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4693170"

Would the NTSB or the FAA scrutinize the flight academies at DVT if it turns out to be a similar case?

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: wr70beh
Posted 2010-08-04 07:39:27 and read 19611 times.

It's all over CNN right now, with shots of flames and smoke from the low-rise building. The way the headlines read, and if you didn't have the sound turned up, it would make you think that something deliberate happened. Sounds like putting a little fear into the public to me over something accidental.

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2010-08-04 07:45:04 and read 19537 times.

Fair Use from the ABC article:

"....The witnesses also said they heard sputtering and there was possibly smoke coming from the plane prior to the crash."

Doesn't sound very intentional. But of course, it's always a good laugh seeing how CNN spins it...

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2010-08-04 08:21:30 and read 19288 times.

I also must add, on a more serious note, that I hope there was no more than the one fatality.

RIP to the pilot.

[Edited 2010-08-04 08:21:57]

[Edited 2010-08-04 08:22:17]

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: flymia
Posted 2010-08-04 08:22:11 and read 19276 times.

Its a random warehouse looking building this was not intentional. Looks like engine trouble on takeoff the worst situation you can have. Saw videos pretty big fire for a small plane. The pilot did die.

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: KPHXFlyer
Posted 2010-08-04 08:47:01 and read 19125 times.

They are saying the plane is a Cirrus SR22 on the Arizona Republic website. So far only the pilot is confirmed dead. RIP.

The building that was hit is a pest control building. That might explain the bigger than expected flames.

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2010-08-04 09:19:27 and read 18961 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
Well the one in Texas where the guy went after the IRS earlier this year was only a 3-4 story building and the little plane did quite the number on it...

Your kidding right? If you really think a light GA aircraft will do anything to a building, you need to look at the 2002 incident in Tampa Florida. Kid put a 172 into a highrise building, and it basically bounced off. Physics say that a small plane isn't going to do much damage, let alone take a building down.


-DiamondFlyer

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: flymia
Posted 2010-08-04 09:20:45 and read 18951 times.

Quoting KPHXFlyer (Reply 10):
They are saying the plane is a Cirrus SR22 on

If this is correct I wonder what the problem was that happened so quick that made the pilot not deploy the parachute system. Is it standard on all planes or is it an option?
Anyone who fly's a C-22 know when a pilot would deploy the system?

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: type-rated
Posted 2010-08-04 09:25:31 and read 18908 times.

Yup, another Cirrus-SR22. I wonder how many hours the pilot had?

When will people learn that if you don't have altitude you don't turn back to the airport? Just try to look forward (180 degrees) of your position to set down. So many times pilots do this and end up in a stall/spin. Even if the area is congested there is always a highway, street, alley or something to shoehorn a plane as small as a Cirrus into.

Topic: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2010-08-04 09:40:37 and read 18786 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):
Your kidding right? If you really think a light GA aircraft will do anything to a building, you need to look at the 2002 incident in Tampa Florida. Kid put a 172 into a highrise building, and it basically bounced off. Physics say that a small plane isn't going to do much damage, let alone take a building down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Da..._complex_from_2010_plane_crash.jpg

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: flymia
Posted 2010-08-04 09:46:08 and read 18757 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 13):
Yup, another Cirrus-SR22. I wonder how many hours the pilot had?

There seem to be a lot of accidents in these planes, wikipedia (yes i know not great source) reports 48 fatal accidents since 2002. Obviously is a light GA plane with a lot of low time pilots so thats the main reason however with the chute system how can you mess this up? Are there certain parameters that the chute does not work in.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-08-04 09:54:37 and read 18693 times.

Isn't the chute there in part because the plane can't recover from a stall/spin ?

It's a nice plane but you don't want to be slow in it.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-08-04 10:14:08 and read 18562 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
Obviously is a light GA plane with a lot of low time pilots so thats the main reason however with the chute system how can you mess this up?

That sort of thinking probably contributed to the deaths of a few of the pilots.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: type-rated
Posted 2010-08-04 10:14:47 and read 18562 times.

I think that you have to be at a minimum altitude for the chute to work.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
It's a nice plane but you don't want to be slow in it.

I think you are on to something, a lot of the SR-22 accidents involved stall/spin problems.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Response2.a...p19=&p20=&p21=&p22=&p23=&p24=SR-22

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: KPHXFlyer
Posted 2010-08-04 10:30:05 and read 18476 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 14):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Da..._complex_from_2010_plane_crash.jpg

While the fire damage appears to be significant, the impact damage isn't. Also, the building is still standing with no collaspes other than immediately around impact damage. IMHO, it's closer to the Tampa Cessna 172 incident than not.

As for the incident this morning in Phoenix, there's already photo showing a blackened asphalt and superficial damage to the masonry building but no collaspes. Fortunately and not minimizing the tragedy, it appears that the pilot appears to be the only fatality.

Photos and video here:
http://www.azcentral.com/community/n...00804phoenix-plane-crash-0804.html

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2010-08-04 12:41:14 and read 16517 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 18):

I think you are on to something, a lot of the SR-22 accidents involved stall/spin problems.

Even the Cirrus factory guys don't want to let you take it to a full power-on stall. It's relatively docile in the power-off stalls, but IMHO it's not an airplane to stall for fun, or for initial pilot training.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
Obviously is a light GA plane with a lot of low time pilots so thats the main reason however with the chute system how can you mess this up? Are there certain parameters that the chute does not work in.

It's been awhile since I've flown the Cirrus, but I'm thinking the minimum parachute deployment altitude is 400 feet...doesn't give you a whole lot if your engine fails on initial climb. Also the Vpd (max parachute deployment speed) is 133 knots. Anything faster than that--even "just a little bit," as sadly evidenced by a few accidents--can rip the chute right off the airframe.

My personal feelings toward the 'chute are that it offers a false sense of security. It's hard to teach someone, especially a low-time pilot, that when they pull that chute they are GOING TO CRASH. It's just a matter of how they're going to do it.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: Jpax
Posted 2010-08-04 13:57:32 and read 15017 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 12):
Anyone who fly's a C-22 know when a pilot would deploy the system?

Depends who you ask. I have some 30 hours of time in a SR-22. The only time I would pull it would be a mid-air collision, if I had a severe medical problem and I was on the verge on unconsciousness, or lost all instruments in IMC and couldn't get out in a timely manner. Basically, any situation in which a totally uncontrolled parachute ride to the ground would be a better option than a controlled landing. There are others who seem to follow the mantra, "pull early, pull often." ...these types pull from inadvertently entering a puffy cumulus on an almost severe clear day, to any other premature issue you could think of.

It's a topic of great debate, and often turns sour very, very quickly.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: etherealsky
Posted 2010-08-04 14:31:13 and read 14360 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):
Physics say that a small plane isn't going to do much damage, let alone take a building down
Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 14):

I don't think we can generalize about this sort of thing; every building is different, and the point of impact surely makes a large difference in the damage caused. To be fair though, the damage in the Texas photo looks like it was mostly caused by the post-crash fire, not the impact itself.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 20):
It's hard to teach someone, especially a low-time pilot, that when they pull that chute they are GOING TO CRASH. It's just a matter of how they're going to do it.

I agree; while the chute has saved many lives so far, I don't think a Cirrus is an appropriate plane for fresh, low-time pilots. Safety devices are never a substitute for airmanship and good stick-and-rudder skill.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 18):
I think that you have to be at a minimum altitude for the chute to work.

According to an AOPA article [here],

Quote:

The POH notes that the minimum demonstrated altitude loss for a CAPS deployment is 920 feet from a one-turn spin, and pilots are cautioned not to "waste time and altitude trying to recover from a spiral/spin before activating CAPS."

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2010-08-04 14:44:29 and read 14049 times.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 22):

I don't think we can generalize about this sort of thing; every building is different, and the point of impact surely makes a large difference in the damage caused. To be fair though, the damage in the Texas photo looks like it was mostly caused by the post-crash fire, not the impact itself.

That was exactly my point. The majority of the damage came from the fire, not the impact. If someone really wants to take a building down, there are many, many methods that are easier than using a light aircraft. You'd basically have to pack one completely full of some sort of high explosive. Doing so might just happen to draw attention no matter where the airplane is.

-DiamondFlyer

[Edited 2010-08-04 14:44:53]

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: KPHXFlyer
Posted 2010-08-04 14:50:04 and read 13889 times.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 22):
I don't think we can generalize about this sort of thing; every building is different, and the point of impact surely makes a large difference in the damage caused.

I'm not sure the point of impact makes a large difference in the damage caused to the building when you're talking about relatively slow, relatively small general aviation aircraft. If the Austin aircraft hit the 3rd floor rather than 1st/2nd, I'd be surprised if the damage didn't look similar. The Tampa aircraft is the same story as it hit 2/3's height of the hi-rise tower. This one today in Phoenix looks like it hit the vehicle yard and the resulting fire blackened but didn't penetrate the building.

IMO, the larger determinent in damage would be an increase in mass or speed or both.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: GAIsweetGAI
Posted 2010-08-04 15:11:01 and read 13586 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
with the chute system how can you mess this up? Are there certain parameters that the chute does not work in.

I think I read somewhere (AOPA Pilot?) that a lot of pilots were apprehensive of the fact that

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 20):
when they pull that chute they are GOING TO CRASH.

They want to save the plane instead of trashing it and saving their lives.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 23):
You'd basically have to pack one completely full of some sort of high explosive.

You'd probably have to penetrate the building in some way or another. An explosion at the edge of the building may not do "that much" damage.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: av8rphx
Posted 2010-08-04 16:49:56 and read 11965 times.

it never amazes me how many people stall and enter a spin trying to return to the field after some sort of engine failure...that said, I wasnt there, although I saw the smoke from the crash on the way to my station this morning. Depending where they were, there were several possible options of landing spots, either the Loop 101, Deer Valley Rd, or even Pinnacle Peak Rd. Those streets arent heavily crowded that early in the morning. I did a good majority of my Comm/ME,CFII training at DVT back in the early 2000's and I dont recall there being half as many crashes as there have been in the last few years. It seems like the aviation academies there are pretty much taking anyone nowdays and most of them are foreigners with very limited English abilities (not directly related, but is still a safety issue).

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2010-08-04 17:30:05 and read 11477 times.

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 25):
Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 20):
when they pull that chute they are GOING TO CRASH.

They want to save the plane instead of trashing it and saving their lives.

Hehe. This is going to turn into one of those epic hangar debates, I'm sure.

My personal feelings are "screw the plane...I'm worried about 1) innocent bystanders/passengers and 2) me (in no particular order   )." When you pull the chute, you're committed. You don't get any other chance to make course corrections or anything. You're just going to crash, and there's maybe a 50/50 chance you'll get injured in it. Parachutes don't just always gently set the airplane down on flat land. If I have an engine failure and a good field, I'm going to glide her to the field. If not, I could chance coming down on electrical wires (it's happened), upside down in trees (it's happened), etc. Plus the rocket doesn't always fire correctly and the chute may not deploy or reef properly (it's happened). It has nothing to do with pride or worry that I'm going to trash an airplane. It has everything to do with safety.

My chute-pulling criteria were:
1) Loss of control in IMC
2) Spin (yeah, the book actually says "don't try to recover, just pull the chute")
3) Emergency landing safety not assured at 1000' AGL
4) Clear lack of a suitable field
5) possibly, engine failure at night

Just one man's opinion   Personally, I dislike the Cirrus. It's effective at getting from point A to point B, but it's not so fun to just go out and putter around in, and at least the early builds are quite poorly built.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: ak
Posted 2010-08-04 17:42:54 and read 11305 times.

On this video with :56 seconds left, http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/P...-Deer-Valley-Airport-99934759.html it appears that the parachute rocket cooks off as the plane burns. RIP.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: GAIsweetGAI
Posted 2010-08-04 19:11:19 and read 10090 times.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 27):
You're just going to crash, and there's maybe a 50/50 chance you'll get injured in it.

And injured is better than dead. When I looked at stats a long time ago, I saw only one case where the pilot got killed after pulling the chute.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 27):
1) Loss of control in IMC

Happened to a SR22 after takeoff from GAI a little while back. The pilot pulled the chute, landed (IIRC) on a sidewalk and walked away.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: atct
Posted 2010-08-04 20:11:57 and read 9364 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 18):
a lot of the SR-22 accidents involved stall/spin problems.

Low timed pilots flying advanced *cough* airplanes. Glad to see this was a hijacked thread....


Anywho RIP dude/dudette who crashed in Phoenix...sad.

ATCT

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2010-08-04 20:20:18 and read 9240 times.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 22):
I agree; while the chute has saved many lives so far, I don't think a Cirrus is an appropriate plane for fresh, low-time pilots. Safety devices are never a substitute for airmanship and good stick-and-rudder skill.

Agreed...and its starting to pop up more and more at flight schools around the country for basic training.

Ill stick to the C172 G1000-equipped aircraft I think...

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: etherealsky
Posted 2010-08-04 21:18:45 and read 8607 times.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 27):
Personally, I dislike the Cirrus. It's effective at getting from point A to point B, but it's not so fun to just go out and putter around in, and at least the early builds are quite poorly built.

That's interesting, why do you say that? (Never flown one myself, so it's neat to hear from someone who has)

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 31):

Now here's another one; how about the general move towards LSA's by flight schools?

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: WNwatcher
Posted 2010-08-04 21:34:55 and read 8455 times.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 32):
That's interesting, why do you say that?

The SR-22 had to have the CAPS system in order to be certified due to the extreme difficulty of pulling out of a spin. My Flight instructor took a demo flight with a new owner of the SR-22, ended up pulling the CAPS system himself after the owner put the A/C into a stall spin and was un-able to recover (Thank goodness they were around 6,000 MSL). Totaled the A/C when it landed in a field, however both my Flight Instructor and the new owner were able to walk away with just mild cases of whiplash. The A/C's owner wanted to sue the Flight Instructor, but thought the better of it once he had time to realize that the CAPS system was activated at the right time.
-Wn

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2010-08-04 21:38:34 and read 8462 times.

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 32):
Now here's another one; how about the general move towards LSA's by flight schools?

I know of one school that moved toward them, and this is what happened:

Student pilots abused airplanes, airplanes couldn't take that kind of abuse, airplanes removed from service due to (what I would call) 'premature fatigue'

Does that answer that question?  

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: ThirtyEcho
Posted 2010-08-04 23:23:52 and read 7508 times.

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the C22 taken over the "Doctor killer" title? I've never flown one but those who have tell me that it is a hot ship, with unconventional handling characteristics, that doesn't belong in the hands of a low time pilot.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: Jpax
Posted 2010-08-05 13:18:20 and read 3082 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
It's a nice plane but you don't want to be slow in it.

That's total bollocks. The aircraft has excellent manners even at a lower airspeed. It is still very stable and responsive with no signs of airframe buffet or wanting to drop from the sky. It's by far from being my favorite aircraft to fly, but I will still defend it against blatant lies such as that.

On another note, how would you takeoff or land if you don't want to be slow in it? It's not a jet or even a multi, it's a single engine piston aircraft. It's fully capable of flying slow and not kissing the ground.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: swiftski
Posted 2010-08-05 19:57:58 and read 2917 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 12):

If this is correct I wonder what the problem was that happened so quick that made the pilot not deploy the parachute system. Is it standard on all planes or is it an option?
Anyone who fly's a C-22 know when a pilot would deploy the system?

It's standard.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Isn't the chute there in part because the plane can't recover from a stall/spin ?

Spin, not stall. And it can recover, it did recover in testing, but not quick enough to get certified.

Quoting Jpax (Reply 21):
Depends who you ask. I have some 30 hours of time in a SR-22. The only time I would pull it would be a mid-air collision, if I had a severe medical problem and I was on the verge on unconsciousness, or lost all instruments in IMC and couldn't get out in a timely manner.

I have 140hours Cirrus and had to land one the other day that had a control problem. To use CAPS it needs to be really serious.

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: Airportugal310
Posted 2010-08-05 20:19:34 and read 2896 times.

Quoting swiftski (Reply 37):
I have 140hours Cirrus and had to land one the other day that had a control problem. To use CAPS it needs to be really serious.

What sort of control problem? I know one of the earlier accidents in which a pilots used CAPS involved an aileron that came unhinged during flight...

Just curious

Topic: RE: Plane Crashed Into Building In Phoenix
Username: Jpax
Posted 2010-08-05 21:08:30 and read 2851 times.

Quoting swiftski (Reply 37):
I have 140hours Cirrus and had to land one the other day that had a control problem. To use CAPS it needs to be really serious.

My apologies to you for your long jail sentence. Luckily it didn't turn into something worse!


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