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Topic: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FRNT787
Posted 2010-08-30 09:29:27 and read 19493 times.

We have passed 250 posts in the last thread, so it is naturally time to open this one. Discussions from the previous thread:

3 Q400s will be kept until April 2011 under the current plan. 2 will fly, and one will be spare. They will operate ASE, COS, and Durango. This occurred as a lease deal fell through for these aircraft. They will operate on the Republic certificate.

Frontier will operate 1X weekly service on Sunday to LIR. This route has been discussed for some time.

DEN-LIR
F9 flight 80
Dep: 0825
Arr: 1435
A319

LIR-DEN
F9 flight 81
Dep: 1525
Arr: 2010
A319


In addition, it was reported that N866RW will be the E170 to leave the fleet next month.

LIR is the first piece to be put in place for next year. With 6 new A320s coming in 1st Half next year, we should see some schedule changes for sure. Should be interesting.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-08-30 09:35:10 and read 19488 times.

Quoting FRNT787 (Thread starter):
3 Q400s will be kept until April 2011 under the current plan. 2 will fly, and one will be spare. They will operate ASE, COS, and Durango. This occurred as a lease deal fell through for these aircraft. They will operate on the Republic certificate.

Still curious how the October 1st launch date will happen because there have been no RAH pilots going through Q-400 training or any Lynx pilots getting re-certified or going through RAH basic indoc. Does RAH even have an approved training program for the Q-400 yet? Any instructors? Check airmen? etc.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: sunking737
Posted 2010-08-30 09:53:29 and read 19442 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 1):
Quoting FRNT787 (Thread starter):
3 Q400s will be kept until April 2011 under the current plan. 2 will fly, and one will be spare. They will operate ASE, COS, and Durango. This occurred as a lease deal fell through for these aircraft. They will operate on the Republic certificate.

Still curious how the October 1st launch date will happen because there have been no RAH pilots going through Q-400 training or any Lynx pilots getting re-certified or going through RAH basic indoc. Does RAH even have an approved training program for the Q-400 yet? Any instructors? Check airmen? etc.

Can't they (REJET) transfer the Lynx employees over? IIRC something was said about massive amount of paperwork need to move staff from F9 to RJET.



Side note thread now at 13. Wow I think I know more about F9 than any other airline that I have not worked for.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2010-08-30 09:55:33 and read 19445 times.

Kinda bizarre timing on the LIR flight without ability to make connections. Are there enough folks in DEN to make this work on its own?

Either way good to see another flight to Costa Rica's Pacific Guanacaste coast which continues to see growing tourism and real estate development.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-08-30 10:07:00 and read 19417 times.

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 2):

Can't they (REJET) transfer the Lynx employees over?

That process is ongoing for the pilots, but until the master SLI is complete (the merger of F9/Lynx/YX/RAH) no flying on any RAH certificate can be done by anyone but RAH pilots.

So in about 30 days they'll need to train enough RAH pilots on the Q-400 to operate these aircraft (probably in the neighborhood of 20-30) AND get the new captains 100 hours in type and ASE certified. That is simply impossible for any training department let alone one that is bringing on a new type.

My guess is they'll try and bring on Lynx pilots (after getting the re-certified and/or sent through basic indoc) and violate the scope clause portion of the RAH pilot's contract.

I don't know if RAH even plans on transferring any of the back office Lynx employees to Indy. My guess is they'll be laid off otherwise there'd be no point in getting rid of the Lynx certificate in the first place.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FRNT787
Posted 2010-08-30 10:27:36 and read 19381 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 4):
I don't know if RAH even plans on transferring any of the back office Lynx employees to Indy. My guess is they'll be laid off otherwise there'd be no point in getting rid of the Lynx certificate in the first place.

That was the plan. That is why they are transferring the necessary Q400 employees over to Republic. The exact timeline that will occur, I am not sure.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-08-30 11:46:04 and read 19286 times.

Since we did not have any pic posted in the first post.... I'll offer this pic.... (This is my OWN picture, BTW......)

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt204/airframef9/Frontier%20Misc%20Photos/Lucy.jpg

Quoting kingcavalier,reply=261, Frontier thread #12 ]AA MIA-LIR.................................................7x
AA DFW-LIR...............................................2x
DL ATL-LIR.................................................9x
CO IAH-LIR...............................................11x
CO EWR-LIR..............................................1x
US CLT-LIR.................................................1x[/quote]

What do the Mexican carriers have daily?

[quote=FRNT787
(Reply 5):
That is why they are transferring the necessary Q400 employees over to Republic.

Well, the ground employees (Not the FA's nor pilots) do wear F9 uniforms.... It would have made more sense and saved money by making the Lynx folks F9 employees.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-08-30 12:03:52 and read 19246 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 4):
So in about 30 days they'll need to train enough RAH pilots on the Q-400 to operate these aircraft (probably in the neighborhood of 20-30) AND get the new captains 100 hours in type and ASE certified. That is simply impossible for any training department let alone one that is bringing on a new type.
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 5):
That was the plan. That is why they are transferring the necessary Q400 employees over to Republic. The exact timeline that will occur, I am not sure.

I'm sure F9/RAH pilots might take a pass on the Q400s, IMHO I don't think too may pilots want to go from jets to propellers...again so they will leave it to the Lynx guys and gals.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-08-30 12:08:06 and read 19229 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 7):
IMHO I don't think too may pilots want to go from jets to propellers...

I still consider the Q400 as a jet as it does use two turbine engines......with propellers though....

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-08-30 12:26:37 and read 19199 times.

AirframesAS - There aren't any Mexican carriers that I know of that fly from Costa Rica to the US. You might be thinking of TACA, but I don't see any carriers except US carriers flying from LIR to the US.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-08-30 13:19:56 and read 19128 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Kinda bizarre timing on the LIR flight without ability to make connections. Are there enough folks in DEN to make this work on its own?

I'm just very happy to see LIR on the route map.

If SJO was a gamble, then I think LIR is more so and - hopefully - will be as successful. I could speculate on the timing but I assume it to be quite deliberate and it intrigues me that there is no service to LIR from anywhere further west than (now) DEN.

Here it is (in Spanish) in La Nacion, which seems a tad confused about the aircraft type:

http://www.nacion.com/2010-08-30/Eco...ia/UltimaHora/UH0830-FRONTIER.aspx

"El Boeing volaría solo una vez a la semana, los domingos."

The Boeing will fly only once a week, every Sunday.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-08-30 13:58:31 and read 19058 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 7):

I'm sure F9/RAH pilots might take a pass on the Q400s, IMHO I don't think too may pilots want to go from jets to propellers...again so they will leave it to the Lynx guys and gals.

Really you sure about that? F9 pilots have nothing to do with this btw, this is solely RAH pilots who are the only ones (currently) legally allowed to fly on RAH certificates (Chautauqua, Republic, Shuttle America). Since the Q-400s are being put on the Republic certificate only pilots on the RAH seniority list are allowed to fly them. If SLI was complete between Lynx, YX, F9, and RAH pilots than there would be no problem but since it isn't yet they are all separate. (which is why only F9 pilots are flying F9 aircraft and RAH pilots are only flying RAH aircraft).

There are many senior RAH FOs and displaced Captains itching for a left seat anywhere so they can get their PIC time and move onto mainline carriers. There will be serious labor problems if RAH management tries to bypass these guys by illegally bringing in former Lynx Captains to staff these flights. I'm sure out of a seniority list of over 2000 there are 20-30 RAH pilots who wouldn't mind flying the Q either to get a left seat or fly out of DEN for a bit.

Further the union will not allow any relief on scope, they do not trust RAH management. If RAH management wants the union to play ball the company will have to give up something in return.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-08-30 14:41:16 and read 18955 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 11):
There will be serious labor problems if RAH management tries to bypass these guys by illegally bringing in former Lynx Captains to staff these flights.

If the Q400's are only around until April is it not possible mgmt has worked out a letter of understanding with Republic union leadership that Lynx pilots will operate the Q's? There has been a lot of discussion about this on here and I agree with everything being said if the Q's were going to stick around.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2010-08-30 14:41:39 and read 18956 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 10):
and it intrigues me that there is no service to LIR from anywhere further west than (now) DEN.

I want to say HP/US tried or was about to try from PHX once. TACA was also going to run a LIR-LAX a couple years back but with the fuel run up in '07 that idea died.

The Guanacaste and Tamarindo region has a bit of weird sales patterns from the US. For whatever reason the American's with dollars that want the nice resorts tend be be East Coasters, while the West Coast crowd tends to be the free spirit, young surfer crowd that don't bring much money. The regional tourism folks have been pitching the region strongly here on the West Coast but sadly it has not taken off. I know currently there is also a bit of struggle in the hotel industry with lower occupancy result of several new properties opening and the global recession all occurring the same time.

I'm quite keen on the region since my first introduction in the early 90s when had to endure an adventures drive from San Jose.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-08-30 14:59:00 and read 18937 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
I'm quite keen on the region since my first introduction in the early 90s when had to endure an adventures drive from San Jose.

I'm fairly keen on the region, too. I assume that this is pretty much it for Costa Rican destinations, though. I doubt we will ever see service to the Caribbean coast - Limon, say. Well, I can dream, perhaps.

As to the timings, it seems to me they miss out on connection capability at one end or the other.

If they delay the DEN departure by a couple of hours, then the return is also delayed - until 10.30 pm - and isn't that a bit late for onward connections?

Neither is ideal, perhaps, but this is possibly the lesser of the two evils. Pax may accept some inconvenience going there - but coming back, generally, they just want to get home.

Eventually - assuming LIR works - I suppose it could be done another way, the timings could be different, and then KingCavalier and I would both get our wish - SJO-LIR-SJO. But that is looking a long way down the road.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-08-30 16:34:48 and read 18838 times.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 12):

If the Q400's are only around until April is it not possible mgmt has worked out a letter of understanding with Republic union leadership that Lynx pilots will operate the Q's? There has been a lot of discussion about this on here and I agree with everything being said if the Q's were going to stick around.

There has been no indication of this, the only chatter from RAH and Lynx pilots has been, "How are they going to do this?"

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-08-30 16:50:55 and read 18809 times.

Over in another thread

"DOT Launches DCA Slot Proceeding"

is this

The DOT today has commenced slot proceeding to reallocate former 7 Midwest Airlines DCA slots.
Initially DOT is soliciting applications for two Vision-100 'within perimeter' slot pairs currently used by Frontier on DCA-MCI services.
....................
Additionally there are 5 other ex Midwest slot pairs where the department will conduct a separate proceeding for.
Submittals are due September 30th.
OST-2000-7182
JetBlue has already indicated to the department that it will solicit for all 7 of these slots.




Is F9 loosing its MCI-DCA nonstops? Is OMA involved as well?

It's going to be kind of a blow if F9 in fact has to give up these in order to satisfy conditions for the consolidation.

[Edited 2010-08-30 16:53:14]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: N809FR
Posted 2010-08-30 21:13:10 and read 18592 times.

That only seems fair, give WN a bunch of new slots at EWR while at the same time taking Frontier's slots at DCA. My guess is that WN is awarded all of the slots since they seem to be so cozy with the DOJ.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-08-31 03:50:41 and read 18492 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
Caribbean coast - Limon, say. Well, I can dream, perhaps.

As much as I would like to see that it would be a miracle since LIO only recently reopened (2006) their airport after repairing it from hurricane damage and is still struggling getting up to int'l standards. The runway is only 5900' while DEN-LIO is 2,452nm. Maybe as an addon from SJO.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-08-31 11:07:23 and read 18304 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 18):
The runway is only 5900' while DEN-LIO is 2,452nm. Maybe as an addon from SJO.

I don't think it will ever happen. I'm not sure that there is the traffic for the Caribbean coast and I don't know if there is sufficient tourist infrastructure.

The most I am hoping for - eventually - is that Frontier does a deal with one of the teensy Costa Rican airlines, similar to a code share, say, a tourist pass, maybe.

Sansa flies the route - SJO-LIO - but they're already associated with TACA. Hmmmm.

http://www.flysansa.com/

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-08-31 11:39:37 and read 18266 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
I don't know if there is sufficient tourist infrastructure.

I do know they have a terminal at the port for cruise ships....at least that's a start. Beaches are OK. Ecotourism is the thing.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-08-31 13:08:37 and read 18176 times.

Quoting N809FR (Reply 17):
That only seems fair, give WN a bunch of new slots at EWR while at the same time taking Frontier's slots at DCA.

For me, I would prefer NOT to have WN at DCA for any reason.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: N809FR
Posted 2010-08-31 15:31:47 and read 18095 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):

For me, I would prefer NOT to have WN at DCA for any reason.

I completely agree, I'm not entirely sure though why Frontier cannot hold the seven slots up for grabs. If anything I think F9 should receive compensation in the form of slots at other slot-controlled airports. Give them a few more LGA slots, or some of those EWR slots WN just picked up. I can just see WN launching DEN-DCA to drive F9 out of one of their most important routes they currently operate.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: ADent
Posted 2010-08-31 16:07:59 and read 18061 times.

If you read the DCA slot thread they have to give them up because they were YX's at some point and are not transferable.

They can't bid for them back because the bidder has to have less than 20 flights a day (in addition to other requirements) and Republic has around 100 flights a day.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-08-31 16:43:19 and read 18031 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 23):
They can't bid for them back because the bidder has to have less than 20 flights a day (in addition to other requirements) and Republic has around 100 flights a day.

Hmmmmmmm. That may be, but I'd love to hear an informed legal opinion.

I've stayed out of this because I don't understand the complex legal in's and out's of it all and, reading that thread, there is some confusion even among people whose brains I very much respect.

As far as I understand it, Frontier - Republic - does not intend to lose the slots that easily, but I don't know how they play this because I'm not a lawyer.

I assume the DOT is acting completely within the letter of the law, but the law and justice can be two different things

And at the very least, I think the possibility of losing this service would be quite unjust - as in unfair - to the good people of Kansas City and - eventually - Omaha.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-08-31 17:41:55 and read 18102 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
I assume the DOT is acting completely within the letter of the law, but the law and justice can be two different things

I wonder if this can be contested in a court of law. If UA/CO gets to keep slots at an airport and NW/DL gets the same, why can't RW/F9/YX? Something does not add up here..... It seems like the DOT is playing favoritism, I feel...... that is my own opinion.

Quoting N809FR (Reply 22):
I can just see WN launching DEN-DCA to drive F9 out of one of their most important routes they currently operate.

If WN were to get a DCA slot, they would be begging for more much worse than a kid at a candy store. The situation wouldn't be pretty. They are going to be asking for 25 slots or more at DCA. Where is the fairness out of that??

All in all, WN would be drooling at the mouth like a rabid dog.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
That may be, but I'd love to hear an informed legal opinion.

I am inclined to see what the F9/RW lawyers come up with.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
And at the very least, I think the possibility of losing this service would be quite unjust - as in unfair - to the good people of Kansas City and - eventually - Omaha.

Hear! Hear!       

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2010-08-31 23:52:26 and read 17910 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 23):
If you read the DCA slot thread they have to give them up because they were YX's at some point and are not transferable.

2 of the slots (or slot pairs? That part's not clear, but I would assume they're pairs, as in 2 arrival slots and 2 departure slots) are not transferrable based on the rules under which they were granted to YX. If F9 is the best option for those slots to go to, they could get them, based on the outcome of the considerations below.

Quoting ADent (Reply 23):
They can't bid for them back because the bidder has to have less than 20 flights a day (in addition to other requirements) and Republic has around 100 flights a day.

This is where it gets fuzzy... Like Mariner, I'm no lawyer, but while Republic has a large number of slots (and flights) those are all operated for and contractually controlled by US. The slots in question originally belonged to US and were transferred to RAH in exchange for financing for US and a long-term contract for RAH to operate flights as US Express. RAH cannot transfer these slots to Frontier's control as that would trigger a "buyback" clause in the lease terms for the slots.

Thus, while RAH legally OWNS a large number of slots, the only slots they actually CONTROL are those held by Frontier... and Frontier has less than 20 flights a day into and out of DCA.

So, if the decision is made based solely on who HOLDS what slots, then Frontier/Midwest could lose these slots... if it's based on who CONTROLS what slots, they have a pretty good shot (in my mind, at least) of keeping them. Again, the two slots being dealt with separately (and sooner, it would seem) are a different matter due to the terms under which they were granted to YX.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: ScottB
Posted 2010-09-01 11:45:42 and read 17843 times.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 26):
Like Mariner, I'm no lawyer, but while Republic has a large number of slots (and flights) those are all operated for and contractually controlled by US. The slots in question originally belonged to US and were transferred to RAH in exchange for financing for US and a long-term contract for RAH to operate flights as US Express. RAH cannot transfer these slots to Frontier's control as that would trigger a "buyback" clause in the lease terms for the slots.

The difficulty most likely lies in the fact that when the Air21 slots were created, the government/Congress never expected an arrangement wherein a regional carrier would own a large slot portfolio at LGA/DCA, operate a large number of flights at those airports on the behalf of a mainline partner, and also operate an independent major carrier. So while F9 is a limited incumbent at DCA, its parent company is not.

The relevant paragraph is as follows:

Quote:
AFFILIATED CARRIERS.—For purposes of this section and
sections 41716, 41717, and 41718, an air carrier that operates
under the same designator code, or has or enters into a codeshare
agreement, with any other air carrier shall not qualify for
a new slot or slot exemption as a new entrant or limited incumbent
air carrier at an airport if the total number of slots and slot
exemptions held by the two carriers at the airport exceed 20 slots
and slot exemptions.
Quoting N809FR (Reply 22):
I'm not entirely sure though why Frontier cannot hold the seven slots up for grabs. If anything I think F9 should receive compensation in the form of slots at other slot-controlled airports.

The rules under which Midwest Airlines was granted its slot exemptions (and "slides" according to the other thread) do not permit the sale or transfer of those assets. Because Midwest ceased to exist as an operating air carrier and was not merged into Republic Airline, the slot exemptions/slides were effectively forfeited to the Federal government for reassignment.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-01 16:41:52 and read 17672 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 16):
Is F9 loosing its MCI-DCA nonstops? Is OMA involved as well?

It's going to be kind of a blow if F9 in fact has to give up these in order to satisfy conditions for the consolidation.

It is a very real possibility. Battling the DOT, as with any bureaucracy, is like punching jello - it wobbles but it does not change shape.

In this case, the objective application of the regulations may outweigh any subjective merit of the routes in question.

Even if Frontier were to apply for and be granted some of the slots, it is possible that the DOT would also award some to another airline, if only to prove their own "fairness."

I don't think Frontier will just roll over and play dead, but I'm not sure what they can do, other than try to enlist the help of the communities involved. And even that may not hold much sway with the DOT.

Unquestionably, it would do harm to Frontier's commercial situation at the airports involved, but the DOT can easily counter that that isn't their problem.

I'm deeply cynical about all this. The "problem" has been known since November 2009, but the DOT has allowed Frontier to continue to fly the routes in question for nearly a year.

I'd like to be able to say that possession is nine tenths of the law, but I don't know if that is true here.

What becomes intriguing to me is what they will do if they do lose the slots.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-09-01 17:04:14 and read 17652 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
The "problem" has been known since November 2009, but the DOT has allowed Frontier to continue to fly the routes in question for nearly a year.

   That is what I do not understand. If the DOT allowed RW to continue to fly these routes for over a year, why is the DOT making it a big deal now?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: ScottB
Posted 2010-09-01 17:13:10 and read 17617 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
If the DOT allowed RW to continue to fly these routes for over a year, why is the DOT making it a big deal now?

I believe it's because no other carrier asked for the slots, and they were still being used for the originally intended small/medium hub service. If reports are correct, JetBlue expressed interest in these slots, which forced the issue with DOT.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-01 18:09:15 and read 17570 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
That is what I do not understand. If the DOT allowed RW to continue to fly these routes for over a year, why is the DOT making it a big deal now?

As I said, I am deeply cynical about all this. It is either "illegal" - in the sense of being outside the regulations - or it is not.

On an unrelated - happier - note, I'm hearing rumors that the winter fun and games may not be over yet and there are also rumors of a possible 7th A320 next year?

It ain't dull.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-01 18:32:50 and read 17515 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
As I said, I am deeply cynical about all this. It is either "illegal" - in the sense of being outside the regulations - or it is not.

I don't know if "illegal" is quite the right term here, but I'm assuming that there is a process to be followed if certain events happen, and as certain events happened, nobody seemed to be interested that the process was not being followed. So nothing was done.

Then, of course, somebody (B6) has to has to notice that a process isn't being followed, so........

edit added: of course, B6 just recently within the last year came into DCA, eh?

[Edited 2010-09-01 18:40:57]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-09-01 18:36:34 and read 17530 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I'm hearing rumors that the winter fun and games may not be over yet and there are also rumors of a possible 7th A320 next year?

We need all the A320's we can get! Like you, I am still waiting to see an A321 on the property!!!!

I also heard a rumor from a few F9 folks on FB..... EWR is in our future and a codeshare with B6??

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-01 18:42:16 and read 17509 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 32):
don't know if "illegal" is quite the right term here

I qualified the definition. LOL.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 33):

I also heard a rumor from a few F9 folks on FB..... EWR is in our future and a codeshare with B6??

I haven't heard that.   

And Frontier already flies to EWR.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2010-09-01 18:44:59 and read 17507 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
That is what I do not understand. If the DOT allowed RW to continue to fly these routes for over a year, why is the DOT making it a big deal now?

The DOT notified Republic in November 2009 about the inability to assume the Midwest slots, but also informed them they could continue operating the route until such time the department reawarded the slots.
If anything the Republic should be happy the department has been so slow and is only now coming around to holding a slot proceeding. Thats one years of revenue.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-09-01 21:01:29 and read 17388 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
And Frontier already flies to EWR.

Actually, that is on RW metal, not F9 metal. They are 14XX flight numbers. So, technically that is not us doing those flights even though they appear on the F9 route map and YX coded. I was talking about DEN-EWR rumor that is on an Airbus in F9 colors.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-01 21:25:27 and read 17370 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
Actually, that is on RW metal, not F9 metal. They are 14XX flight numbers. So, technically that is not us doing those flights even though they appear on the F9 route map and YX coded. I was talking about DEN-EWR rumor that is on an Airbus in F9 colors.

What happened to "We are one"? Is that out the window now?

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-09-01 21:29:51 and read 17364 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
What happened to "We are one"? Is that out the window now?

Ok, how about this: This is on RW aircraft, an ERJ operated by CHQ and not on an Airbus operated by F9.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-01 21:34:45 and read 17358 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 38):
Ok, how about this: This is on RW aircraft, an ERJ operated by CHQ and not on an Airbus operated by F9.

You call it what you want.

But as far as I am concerned, Frontier flies to SBA and LGB. And Frontier flies to PIT and RDU - and EWR.

I'm not going to split it all into it's component parts.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-09-01 21:36:31 and read 17350 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
You call it what you want.

But as far as I am concerned, Frontier flies to SBA and LGB. And Frontier flies to PIT and RDU - and EWR.

I'm not going to split it all into it's component parts.

I'm just saying what frontierairlines.com says.   

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-01 21:42:40 and read 17350 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 40):
I'm just saying what frontierairlines.com says.

That's right - frontierairlines.com.

You cant go to Republic to book it, you can't go to Chatauqua to book it. You go to Frontier to book it. We are one.

You do whatever you want.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-01 21:50:21 and read 17342 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
What happened to "We are one"? Is that out the window now?

LOL, didn't take you long eh?

On another note, DEN supposedly is scheduled for some UA/CO cuts due to the merger according to an attorney suing to block the UA/CO merger.


Joseph Alioto, a lawyer representing consumers in the suit, today showed Smisek internal Continental %u201CHub Stats%u201D documents projecting %u201Coptimized%u201D flight networks for the merged airline in various cities. For Denver, the document showed a reduction of 37 departures, a 19 percent cut.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...united-s-tilton-defend-merger.html


I believe that this was the same suit that said CLE would go down from about 200 flights to 33, so who knows.

But the funny part of this lawsuit, if DEN has over 400 flights a day with UA/CO and this is reduced by 37 departures, this is about 10%, or if it's !9%, then that's a reduction of about 80 flights. Really makes one wonder about the competency of this lawsuit. Or am I missing something? Or maybe it's reported wrong?

At any rate, there likely will be some cuts to streamline the system, and if DEN lost anywhere of 5%-10% of flights, I guess this would almost be expected. Be curious what percentage of DEN gets compared to the other UA/CO hubs, without CLE in the pic. But if so, this just leaves more passengers on the table for F9.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-09-01 21:51:11 and read 17341 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 41):
You do whatever you want.

   I fail to see why we are arguing about this. I am not Eniliria. I hope you are not having a bad day, Mariner.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-01 21:58:26 and read 17352 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 43):
I fail to see why we are arguing about this. I am not Eniliria. I hope you are not having a bad day, Mariner.

LOL. Why would you think that?

As far as I cam concerned, Frontier flies to EWR, that's all.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-02 02:54:29 and read 17311 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
On an unrelated - happier - note, I'm hearing rumors that the winter fun and games may not be over yet

The folk at OMA should be happy - LAX, SAN, MCO - and PIE:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Fronti...ounces-bw-2891203356.html?x=0&.v=1

"Frontier Airlines Announces Omaha Expansion

rontier Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings, Inc. (NASDAQ: RJET - News), today announced the addition of nonstop service from Omaha (OMA) to both San Diego (SAN) and Los Angeles (LAX). The carrier also announced the return of seasonal nonstop service from Omaha to both Orlando (MCO) and St. Petersburg/Clearwater (PIE).


Love it. PIE really scratches my itch.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: loggat
Posted 2010-09-02 05:28:56 and read 17249 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
PIE really scratches my itch

I think this will give better access to the SRQ catchment area too. I assume we are going to see the DEN and MKE flights (and the OKC flight if it comes back) transfer over to PIE?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FRNT787
Posted 2010-09-02 07:04:24 and read 17159 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
The folk at OMA should be happy - LAX, SAN, MCO - and PIE:

Well, this looks like the beginning of part of the non-hub expansion. Hopefully these should do well. Having the E190 in the fleet makes Frontier quite flexible.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: ScottB
Posted 2010-09-02 07:19:10 and read 17148 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
PIE really scratches my itch.

It strikes me as being very odd unless the plan is to move all Tampa Bay service to PIE. Why would they open a new station for a grand total of 28 round-trips otherwise?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: SANFan
Posted 2010-09-02 08:31:44 and read 17085 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
The folk at OMA should be happy

I beg your pardon Mariner; what about us folks in San Diego?! Some of us might be happy at this news as well...

Interesting announcement. Unexpected, strange time of year to see a new route started here but I'll take it!   Non-daily and peculiar timing but since it is very similar to the LAX schedule, it could work.

I would have expected to see MCI-SAN before OMA but, hey, it's a "new" n/s destination from Lindbergh (one that did actually see some service for a little while once upon a time in Midwest's past) and I'm very happy to see it.

bb

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-09-02 11:22:50 and read 17025 times.

Another rumor I am hearing from my F9 mechanic friends in MKE: "Go to MCI for the c-check.... Oh, wait.... go back to MKE."

So, I ask: What's going on with the c-check now??   

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-02 11:26:19 and read 16991 times.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 49):
I beg your pardon Mariner; what about us folks in San Diego?! Some of us might be happy at this news as well...

I hoped you would be happy and certainly the folk at PIE, but OMA gets the several destinations and since they may be about to lose OMA-DCA, I thought they deserved a break. LOL.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 48):
It strikes me as being very odd unless the plan is to move all Tampa Bay service to PIE.

I take everything at face value, but that doesn't mean there isn't more to it than meets the eye. Since it is impossible for me to try and second Daniel Shurz, I can only react to what I know.

And I don't know if there is to be more at PIE, but I love the concept.

Like you, I think it would be odd to open the station for 2 x weekly seasonal flights, but maybe they are testing something. Maybe they'll keep TPA for the two biggies - DEN and MKE - and send the other station stuff to PIE, which they could surely do.

On the other hand, maybe they do see PIE as their future in that part of the world, and I would have a sense of relief if they do.

I heard about it yesterday and went around for a couple of hours with a big smile on my face. I woke up this morning and the smile is still there.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: adamblang
Posted 2010-09-02 11:30:03 and read 17008 times.

Effective November 18th, all MKE-TPA flights will be MKE-PIE.

http://frontierair.tekgroupweb.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5223

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FRNT787
Posted 2010-09-02 11:37:48 and read 16986 times.

Quoting adamblang (Reply 52):
Effective November 18th, all MKE-TPA flights will be MKE-PIE.

They did not say anything about DEN-Tampa. Maybe that is coming soon...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-02 11:42:05 and read 16978 times.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 53):
They did not say anything about DEN-Tampa. Maybe that is coming soon...

As noted above, I have my fingers crossed for that.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FRNT787
Posted 2010-09-02 11:43:49 and read 16972 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 54):
As noted above, I have my fingers crossed for that.  

As do I, it would make sense. I just hope they dont try to keep both, I dont think that would make sense at all.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-02 11:51:03 and read 16966 times.

Looking at a map, it seems like TPA and PIE have sort of a similar situation as do SFO and OAK, right across the bay from each other, and not that far apart. It would make sense to move all operations into one airport - the airport that costs the least - and I'm assuming that PIE is it.

I know that G4 uses it. Any other scheduled services? Anyone know what are the facilities like?

.

[Edited 2010-09-02 11:52:55]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: oflanigan
Posted 2010-09-02 12:22:54 and read 16923 times.

A great choice for Frontier. Hopefully they see the opportunity to expand service out of PIE. Does anyone think WN and FL who are based at TPA will feel pressure to counter?

Main Runway 17L/35R is 9730 feet long. Newly updated Terminal with Jet Bridges at select gates. Ample parking, and its closer to the beaches. A good choice I think.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: ScottB
Posted 2010-09-02 13:21:35 and read 16864 times.

Quoting oflanigan (Reply 57):
Does anyone think WN and FL who are based at TPA will feel pressure to counter?

Nope.

Quoting point2point (Reply 56):
it seems like TPA and PIE have sort of a similar situation as do SFO and OAK, right across the bay from each other, and not that far apart.

Except for more population in the SF Bay Area with more business demand, as well as far worse traffic.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-02 13:45:28 and read 16840 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 56):
Looking at a map, it seems like TPA and PIE have sort of a similar situation as do SFO and OAK, right across the bay from each other, and not that far apart. It would make sense to move all operations into one airport - the airport that costs the least - and I'm assuming that PIE is it.

I'm wary of parallels. If there is one here it may be closer to PHF v. ORF, but I don't think even that is exact.

Quoting oflanigan (Reply 57):
Does anyone think WN and FL who are based at TPA will feel pressure to counter?

Who knows what airlines will do in a competitive situation, but I can't imagine so. If there is a subjective response then I imagine that Airtran is either smug that they've driven Frontier from TPA - or miffed that Frontier has now a cheaper alternative.

I'm not sure that Southwest cares, either way. Does Southwest regard Frontier as anything more than a wretchedly annoying gnat?

For whatever reasons, and I am sure they are many and various, Frontier has decided that this is the right place for them. They know their capabilities, their deals and their pax better than I do.

For myself, I love this reinvention that is happening, that decisions made years ago by a different management are not carved in granite. As I see it, PIE takes a certain amount of pressure off Frontier and opens up a whole new box and dice. I doubt that Frontier would ever consider service, in the foreseeable future, MCI-TPA. It is just possible that they might consider MCI-PIE.

See how it goes, I guess, but as Sean Menke said, there are no sacred cows.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: USPIT10L
Posted 2010-09-02 13:50:57 and read 16820 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 56):
I know that G4 uses it. Any other scheduled services? Anyone know what are the facilities like?

No other scheduled service. Other airlines have tried to use it as an "alternative" to TPA, but what for? TPA is uncongested and has no real dominant carrier. It hasn't even been a focus market for anybody since PA/NA days in the early '80s. AA tried RDUPIE with little success, PeoplExpress flew EWRPIE for years and US tried PIEMCO in 1992. TZ was the only carrier to really make a go of PIE service, but they always served secondary airports when given the chance.

PIE has about eight gates, but only one or two are used.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-09-02 13:54:15 and read 16829 times.

If they have had success at PHF, and they are feeling good about BKG, and the move to HOU makes sense, perhaps they are looking throughout the system at alternatives that might provide both direct financial benefits and perhaps greater opportunities to stand out in the crowd.

Sounds good to me.

-Dave

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2010-09-02 13:57:55 and read 16832 times.

MKE-PIE is a very good tactical move to blunt FL in TPA and SRQ IMHO. Instead of going into both you can go into PIE and be close to both. Many MKE passangers head to Bradenton, Venice, Sarasota. PIE is only another 20 minutes or so farther than SRQ. Not much if the price is right. And it allows F9 to advertise Tampa/St. Pete/Sarasota. It's just a quick zip over the Sunshine Skyway Bridge.

Otherwise, this is a very small airport. I am not sure Frontier would be successful moving everything over the bridge, but who knows. Last time I was there I was on ATA. Five minutes to/from the parking lot to the gate John Travolta's 707 was parked at a gate.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AltairF28
Posted 2010-09-02 14:03:24 and read 16813 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 58):
Quoting point2point (Reply 56):
it seems like TPA and PIE have sort of a similar situation as do SFO and OAK, right across the bay from each other, and not that far apart.

Except for more population in the SF Bay Area with more business demand, as well as far worse traffic

The traffic is worse but I'm not sure it's far worse-ever been here and tried driving on Dale Mabry or 275 South (the two main routes to the airport) during rush hour?

The press release says that anyone with an existing MKE reservation gets automatically moved to the PIE flight and is contacted with a new itinerary. This doesn't apply to me (never been to MKE or flown F9 or YX) but hypothetical situation: if someone with an existing reservation decides PIE doesn't work for them and asks for a refund or a switch to an MCO flight with the change fee waived (example of the former would be if they live in the North Suncoast area and deci9de they have to fly out of TPA; example of the latter is if they live in Lakeland, halfway between MCO and TPA but closer to MCO then PIE) would F9 work with them or would they be SOL?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-09-02 14:06:18 and read 16824 times.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 60):
TPA is uncongested and has no real dominant carrier.

Perhaps, but for F9's purposes, WN would be a primary competitor with FL also in the mix. I don't know about you, but that would be a strong one-two competitive punch that I'd want to avoid messing with if I could.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 60):
It hasn't even been a focus market for anybody since PA/NA days

Piedmont had transcons from their I believe, as did DL, in the mid-late 80's, and certainly WN has a strong presence there today. It's not going to be much of a hub for anyone, though, so you aren't going to have one mega competitor.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 60):
TZ was the only carrier to really make a go of PIE service, but they always served secondary airports when given the chance.

Well:

"F9 is the only carrier to really make a go of PIE service, because they now serve secondary airports when given the chance."  

Who knows - maybe they'll keep DEN-TPA so that the station remains open in the event PIE bombs, but at least they are giving it a shot.

-Dave

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mke717spotter
Posted 2010-09-03 00:37:25 and read 16610 times.

Quoting oflanigan (Reply 57):
Does anyone think WN and FL who are based at TPA will feel pressure to counter?


I seriously doubt that FL/WN would consider moving all their ops to PIE just because F9 did. They have a much larger operation at TPA compared to F9's.

[Edited 2010-09-03 00:37:50]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: USPIT10L
Posted 2010-09-03 09:13:49 and read 16452 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 64):
Piedmont had transcons from their I believe, as did DL, in the mid-late 80's, and certainly WN has a strong presence there today. It's not going to be much of a hub for anyone, though, so you aren't going to have one mega competitor.

But they were never considered large stations for either airline. USAir never put airport maps of TPA in USAir Magazine, even though they had well over 100 flights a day there in the 1993-94 timeframe. DL has a strong SkyMiles presence in TPA, as they do in most major Florida markets, but that doesn't make TPA a focus city. I continue to question every detailed decision Bedford makes. He hasn't shown us in PIT much, I can tell you that.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-09-03 09:34:07 and read 16438 times.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 66):
USAir never put airport maps of TPA in USAir Magazine, even though they had well over 100 flights a day there in the 1993-94 timeframe

Well over 100 flights a day? They might not have called it a focus city, but it's clear that they had a large operation by any measure. But I get your point.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 66):
I continue to question every detailed decision Bedford makes.

Nothing wrong with that.  

-Dave

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-03 11:02:33 and read 16392 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 67):
Well over 100 flights a day? They might not have called it a focus city, but it's clear that they had a large operation by any measure.

I have a whole focus city going on in my head for Frontier at PIE - not a hundred flights, but much, much more than they intend, I'm sure.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-03 12:32:59 and read 16340 times.

For anyone interested in the business side of things, there is a remarkable interview in Businessweek with Michael O'Leary (MOL) - CEO of Ryanair:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_37/b4194058006755.htm

"Ryanair's O'Leary: The Duke of Discomfort
Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary is remaking commercial flights in his image: shabby, crabby, and cheap, cheap, cheap"


I am not suggesting that Ryanair is or should be Frontier's model, but MOL has a clear understanding of the mindset of many travelers and along the way, it is filled with (a) insights and (b) great zingers:

"We finally exposed the myth that air travel was some kind of a uniquely sexual experience," he says. "It's not. It's just a commoditized way of getting from A to B."

MOL has reinvented the flying experience in a way that hasn't quite yet happened in the US (maybe Spirit?) and I have no doubt that what he says will infuriate some people, but it is a good read.

And to repeat, I am NOT suggesting Frontier should go down this road. But there are insights into what Frontier is doing and can do and one critical point:

"This is what we offer. You're not obliged to fly us."

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-03 15:37:57 and read 16204 times.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 60):
No other scheduled service. Other airlines have tried to use it as an "alternative" to TPA, but what for? TPA is uncongested and has no real dominant carrier. It hasn't even been a focus market for anybody since PA/NA days in the early '80s. AA tried RDUPIE with little success, PeoplExpress flew EWRPIE for years and US tried PIEMCO in 1992. TZ was the only carrier to really make a go of PIE service, but they always served secondary airports when given the chance.

PIE has about eight gates, but only one or two are used.

Thanks

I'm wondering if both TPA and PIE could be kept by F9? The only real added expense is the airport costs, since I think that personal could be shifted between the airports if need be, would that be correct?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-03 16:13:44 and read 16189 times.

On another note, Republic released their August 2010 Traffic Report today

Republic Airways Holdings (NASDAQ/NM: RJET | PowerRating), today reported preliminary passenger traffic results for August 2010. The Company generated 2.0 billion revenue passenger miles (RPMs), a 120% increase from the same month last year, while available seat miles (ASMs) increased 109%. Block hours were 86,049 in August 2010, a 46% increase from August 2009. Consolidated load factor was 84% versus 79% in August 2009. Nearly three million passengers were carried during the month, a 70% increase from the same month last year.

The branded operations at Frontier Airlines(1) generated 1.21 billion RPMs in August 2010, an increase of 10% over August 2009 results. Capacity (ASMs) increased 9% to 1.38 billion in August 2010 compared to 1.27 billion in August 2009. Frontier also reported a record load factor for the sixth consecutive month. The load factor in August 2010 of 88% compared to 87% in August 2009. Frontier Airlines served 1.4 million passengers last month, a 5% increase from August 2009.


http://www.tradingmarkets.com/news/p...s-august-2010-traffic-1150059.html

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: sideflare75
Posted 2010-09-03 18:39:16 and read 16081 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 50):
Another rumor I am hearing from my F9 mechanic friends in MKE: "Go to MCI for the c-check.... Oh, wait.... go back to MKE."

So, I ask: What's going on with the c-check now??

Yes they are now coming back. I guess when they told them it would be temporary it was true. I heard Sept. 25th for a date but one is back already. Sounds like they will only be doing back shop work and will not be working on the aircraft but I guess we will see what happens. Can this get anymore confusing?

As for the C check who knows when or if they will ever start here. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2010-09-03 18:58:26 and read 16053 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
I have a whole focus city going on in my head for Frontier at PIE

Anyone recall what flying ATA had at PIE?
I know for a bit they had a LAX flight on 737-800s (loads were OK, but fares were bargain basement)

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-03 19:13:25 and read 16047 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 73):
Anyone recall what flying ATA had at PIE?

It looks like they flew PIE to IND and MDW when they ceased service to PIE in 2005. The PIE press release said ATA represented 50% of PIE's passenger traffic in 2004. Did they serve any other cities from PIE?

http://www.fly2pie.com/airport_news/news_view.asp?id=144

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2010-09-03 19:24:32 and read 16041 times.

I just found some more.

Looks like they had 51 weekly flights at PIE including daily LGA service, and 3x weekly SJU also. LAX was discontinued in April 2004.
http://www.fly2pie.com/airport_news/news_view.asp?id=165

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-03 19:29:50 and read 16034 times.

And here is a little more -
http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tamp...bay/stories/2002/11/04/daily7.html
It mentions LAX, SFO and LAS. I saw a blog that mentioned BOS service? That makes IND, MDW, LAX, SFO, LAS, SJU, LGA and BOS? There were probably more but that's pretty impressive.

This article from 1997 mentions JFK and 12 cities served by ATA from PIE -
http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tamp...bay/stories/1997/03/10/daily8.html

[Edited 2010-09-03 19:36:20]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: oflanigan
Posted 2010-09-03 19:33:43 and read 16097 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):

I have a whole focus city going on in my head for Frontier at PIE

It would be cool right. But seriously what are the chances, nil?

Maybe old USA3000 cities?

Just a thought

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-03 19:35:23 and read 16116 times.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 76):
It mentions LAX, SFO and LAS. I saw a blog that mentioned BOS service? That makes IND, MDW, LAX, SFO, LAS, SJU, LGA and BOS? There were probably more but that's pretty impressive.


Add SEA and SAN to that, too - or at least, announced:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/ATA+IN....+PETERSBURG+DEPARTURES-a018373026

Very few of the ATA destinations are on my list of potentials, except, maybe IND.

But I would add somewhere south, perhaps, and further south than Key West.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-03 23:24:39 and read 16013 times.

Dan Webb is an av.nut who runs a smart blog called "Things in the Sky." He has a junior love affair with Frontier and has posted a good piece about the OMA expansion:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thingsinthesky/

He also deals with the move to PIE and - alone among the journalists I've read - he had the good sense to ask Frontier about DEN-TPA v. DEN-PIE.

Here's the response from Frontier:

"We sell far more tickets to Tampa from Denver. Moving the Omaha and Milwaukee service to PIE allows us to test the unique characteristics of that market and capitalize on the close proximity to the beach."

Make of it what you will.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-09-04 01:52:22 and read 15970 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 78):
Add SEA and SAN to that, too - or at least, announced:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/ATA+IN...73026

Well, it sounds like SEA and SAN would have been "direct" service, but interesting nonetheless.

-Dave

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-04 02:49:07 and read 15952 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
Here's the response from Frontier:

"We sell far more tickets to Tampa from Denver. Moving the Omaha and Milwaukee service to PIE allows us to test the unique characteristics of that market and capitalize on the close proximity to the beach."

Make of it what you will.

Maybe they aren't going to move over the DEN-TPA route just so soon?  

I guess if anyone from DEN really wants to go to PIE on F9 they could always connect in OMA or MKE...   

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-09-04 03:00:54 and read 15950 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 81):
I guess if anyone from DEN really wants to go to PIE on F9 they could always connect in OMA or MKE...

Or drive over the bridge.

It seems interesting that someone could presumably book DEN-TPA PIE-MKE-DEN. I wonder if anyone would do it?

-Dave

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2010-09-04 11:32:53 and read 15827 times.

Quoting sideflare75 (Reply 72):
As for the C check who knows when or if they will ever start here. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Me neither. A lot of us at F9 (on the MX side, folks I still talk to) think that the c-check is never coming back and will continue to be outsourced from this point on. It gets confusing by the day. The last I heard is that the contractor who is doing the c-checks got some sort of an contract extension until 2012?? Or something like that.

Either way, this is disappointing. You get what you pay for, I guess.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-04 16:53:45 and read 15705 times.

Quoting oflanigan (Reply 77):
It would be cool right. But seriously what are the chances, nil?

I did say it was in my head. I've been running airlines - in my head - since I was about eight.  

I have no idea how much interest Frontier has in St. Petersburg beyond these present routes - if any interest at all. But I look at what Allegiant has built up there over four years and think - hmmmmmm:



PIE is Florida but not contested, competitive Florida. As such, I think it is - desirable.

Everyone else is beguiled by by the big glamorous cities, the primary airports, even Southwest these days. But Allegiant has remembered the old saying - ask the plain girl to dance, she's more likely to say yes.

I'm big on secondary airports.

mariner

[Edited 2010-09-04 17:07:32]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2010-09-05 20:38:24 and read 15389 times.

What is all this talk about PIE possible becoming the next focus city or hub. come on guys they are just trying out a new airport to see if the cost savings of that airport versus TPA. G4 is having success at PIE but they work on a different business model from F9's Business model. And please let us not compare this to ATA, because look what happen to ATA. So the F9 management are testing the market and if they can get the MKE and OMA markets to use PIE vs. TPA with another airline then it should work for other cities in the Midwest region of the Frontier network. Will it work for for markets west of OMA and MCI maybe not, but it will have to pass the MKE/OMA test first.
And if we are going to talk about growing hubs, lets look at MKE and MCI because F9 has yet to grow the two cities to the point that they can not possibly make it grow anymore. Here in MKE we don't even have N/S service to all of the top 50 markets by F9. F9 does not have n/s service to HOU*, JFK, CLT, DTW*, HNL, MIA, BWI*, SLC, ORD/MDW*, PDX, CVG*, OAK, MEM*, SJC, SJU, SNA, AUS, MSY# from MKE. The cities with an * after it have n/s service by another carrier. the city with a # after it will have n/s service by another carrier soon. Granted some of the cities listed are not served by F9 but it would be nice if they did. With DTW F9 does have service to FNT which is considered by many DTW other airport. Also I don't see the need for service to ORD/MDW from MKE. SAN, SEA and SFO are seasonal but many here in MKE that I talk to think it should be year round service, but the comment can be made that the markets are served year round by another carrier (that I refuse to name for personal reasons) so F9 does not need to serve it year round plus you can go there via DEN. To that I say, that's a line of crap. [i]If you want to be #1 at MKE act like it.[i/] Now I know that there are other cities that could be served by F9 from MKE Like BUF, ALB, TOL, FWA, RIC, SAV, JAX, TYS, CHA, MOB and others that I can't think of right now. But I sure would like t see MKE grow and Grow. Some will say Gate space is a problem, to that I say the D concourse can be explained or a new Concourse could be built. The county has done it before for the old Republic Airlines and for Midwest where they currently sits.
MCI is kind of in the same boat as MKE with a bigger problem before they can really begin to expand to more cities. That problem is the lack of gate space. I understand the need to be near the International gates, but IF F9 is to grow there market share at MCI they need to look at getting more gates. Know I have not been at MCI in 10 years but waht I've seen from MCI website F9 is land lock where they are. Can anyone at MCI confirm that insight? If I wrong please in-lighten me, But I tihink MCI can be a great gateway to the mid-south region of the country.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-09-05 23:13:22 and read 15273 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 84):
ask the plain girl to dance, she's more likely to say yes.

and she's usually lower maintenance too but then again I got lucky.  

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: MCI10
Posted 2010-09-06 23:51:05 and read 14968 times.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 85):
Know I have not been at MCI in 10 years but waht I've seen from MCI website F9 is land lock where they are. Can anyone at MCI confirm that insight? If I wrong please in-lighten me, But I tihink MCI can be a great gateway to the mid-south region of the country.

Yes we are land locked. There are only two more gates we can get in the area we are at now. That is gate 87 and 88. And AA is on the other side of us and dont see them moving any time soon. The only way i see us growing is if CO moves to Terminal A and F9 moves to take the gates CO had and take the empty gates that NW left when they moved over to DL. Just my opinion.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2010-09-07 02:47:51 and read 14937 times.

Quoting MCI10 (Reply 87):
And AA is on the other side of us and dont see them moving any time soon. The only way i see us growing is if CO moves to Terminal A and F9 moves to take the gates CO had and take the empty gates that NW left when they moved over to DL. Just my opinion.

I don't see that happening there either. And if they do move from their current location they lose the International gate advantage. Sounds like they have very little chance in expanding much at MCI.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-09-07 03:06:42 and read 14924 times.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 85):
I know that there are other cities that could be served by F9 from MKE Like BUF, ALB, TOL, FWA, RIC, SAV, JAX, TYS, CHA, MOB and others that I can't think of right now.

With all due respect I don't see any of these cities working for MKE except maybe BUF and seasonally JAX/SAV. Unless your planning on building a fortress hub where connections will be everything. The O&D would be terrible. IMHumbleO

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2010-09-07 06:28:45 and read 14847 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 89):
With all due respect I don't see any of these cities working for MKE except maybe BUF and seasonally JAX/SAV. Unless your planning on building a fortress hub where connections will be everything. The O&D would be terrible. IMHumbleO

But we here in MKE land are tired of getting to our destinations via another hub. Maybe just maybe if we have enough connecting traffic we would get places like LAX, SFO, SAN and SEA on a year round basis versus seasonal. We don't want to go through DEN, PHX or MCI to get there anymore. The flights don't have to be on 319's, a daily pair of 170's or a 145 to even 5 or six of the cities I listed could make the difference to fill the seats to keep a pair of daily flights to the west coast on a 190 and other bigger cities that we would like to see on the map say down in Texas. the old Midwest was making strides toward that goal when the 2008 crash hit and Midwest fell apart. Even the old Republic was making a nice hub in MKE when NW saw it was losing out to them and came in and made a buy-out offer that ended the MKE hub. Yes you could say that MKE does have year-round n/s service to the west coast with that other airline, but I don't want to fly that other airline but if I want to fly n/s during off season then I have to fly that airline. Do you understand what I'm saying?
And another think that confuses me why is SAN and LAX seasonal during the summer but not during the winter months when it is cold as all get out here in MKE and warm there, where we want to go to and warm up for a week or two. And yes I know the F9 metal is well spoken for currently, but we do have the 320's and the E190/5's coming in 2011 and beyond, it would be nice to know that some of that will be based here at MKE with more destinations added to the MKE map. For me that day can't come soon enough.
There are so many of us here in MKE that are so tired of living under ORD's shadow but because we are so close to ORD that many in the airline industry think we don't need the service because of ORD being such a "short" drive from MKE why bother will service to the smaller cities when they can go to ORD for that flight to "XYZ" city. If MKE was say 100 miles farther away from ORD, I bet we would have the flights I'm talking about. Do you understand what I trying to say now?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-09-07 07:45:31 and read 14810 times.

Lynx update: Republic and Lynx pilots are reporting that Lynx pilots will start training on October 4th to fly the Q-400 on the Republic certificate.

No mention as of yet if the union reached a LOA with the company or if the company simply plans on violating the RAH CBA. Not sure how RAH plans to start service on October 1st with the Q-400 (on the Republic certificate) if the Lynx operation is ending on September 30th. Maybe they'll extend Lynx another month until the Lynx pilots are certified on the Republic certificate?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2010-09-07 08:21:14 and read 14769 times.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 90):
Yes you could say that MKE does have year-round n/s service to the west coast with that other airline, but I don't want to fly that other airline but if I want to fly n/s during off season then I have to fly that airline. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Like it or not thaty "other airline" is there to stay and that "other airline" with the exception of SAN will keep the west coast traffic year round and is bringing a whole host of changes...thanks in part to apple vacations. Not to mention that "other airlines" probably sooner then later will add more cities from MKE. So hold tight MKE will get the service from BOTH it should have with a smattering of International from both.  

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-08 17:34:53 and read 14414 times.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 85):
G4 is having success at PIE but they work on a different business model from F9's Business model.

I very much hope that Frontier does adopt some aspects of the Allegiant model. In some cases they've already done so.

The idea is to be profitable, and that is very much more difficult if they just fly the same routes as everyone else. Allegiant has discovered extraordinary success in not doing the same as everyone else.

Collective a.net sneered when Frontier started BKG, but it has done well for them and if the rumor I'm hearing is true, it may yet to do better.

Frontier still has splendid opportunities at MKE, but only about fifteen months ago Midwest was on the ropes. I think they've made great strides, but they still have some uglies to deal with from the previous management, hangovers such as the DCA slots.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 92):
.thanks in part to apple vacations.

LOL. That "other airline" doesn't have a lock on Apple Vacations.  

mariner

[Edited 2010-09-08 17:49:07]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: MKENut
Posted 2010-09-08 18:08:41 and read 14359 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 93):
LOL. That "other airline" doesn't have a lock on Apple Vacations.

Apple and Funjet are always shopping around for competitive charters. Frontier has a chance to land some of that business for sure.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-08 18:11:06 and read 14362 times.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 94):
Apple and Funjet are always shopping around for competitive charters. Frontier has a chance to land some of that business for sure.

I believe they have big capacity purchase agreements with both, for scheduled service as well.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: MKENut
Posted 2010-09-08 18:14:15 and read 14370 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 93):
Collective a.net sneered when Frontier started BKG, but it has done well for them and if the rumor I'm hearing is true, it may yet to do better.

I still have my doubts about MKE - BKG. There have been bargain basement sales on that route lately which tells me it isn't doing so well.

[Edited 2010-09-08 18:35:14]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-08 18:26:12 and read 14362 times.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 96):
I still have my doubts about MKE - BKG. There have been bargain basements sales on that route lately which tells me it isn't doing so well.

I do, too, I was surprised when they announced it. But I assume that it has at least some of the same revenue guarantees as DEN-BKG, and that's been gang-busters.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: pilotfox
Posted 2010-09-08 18:37:49 and read 14339 times.

Anyone know if any planes are getting repainted, its after Labor Day....

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: MKENut
Posted 2010-09-08 18:45:33 and read 14338 times.

Quoting pilotfox (Reply 98):
Anyone know if any planes are getting repainted, its after Labor Day....

I hope something comes up for conversation... It's been really slow in the Frontier Airline news dept. these last couple weeks.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2010-09-08 18:51:59 and read 14317 times.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 99):
I hope something comes up for conversation... It's been really slow in the Frontier Airline news dept. these last couple weeks.

Well, we could do like some other a.netters like to do and just make up our own news and facts...   

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-08 18:57:01 and read 14319 times.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 100):
Well, we could do like some other a.netters like to do and just make up our own news and facts...

Oh, I dunno. I thought the news about the OMA expansion and MKE-PIE was pretty good - and LIR.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2010-09-08 19:07:49 and read 14366 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 93):
LOL. That "other airline" doesn't have a lock on Apple Vacations.  

Very very true. Thats why some of the things apple had are being implemented and benefit the charter and scheduled biz. Think soft product upgrades and route upgrades.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: sideflare75
Posted 2010-09-08 19:17:05 and read 14349 times.

Quoting pilotfox (Reply 98):
Anyone know if any planes are getting repainted, its after Labor Day....

I'll take a look tomorrow when I get to work.

As a side note even though it isn't painted on the outside, 868 has new green seats and WiFi installed. I don't know if it's activated yet. Probably not. I'll have to check on that too.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: loggat
Posted 2010-09-08 19:29:18 and read 14315 times.

They aren't activating wifi until around November timeframe. They said they want it on most of the fleet first.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-08 20:50:28 and read 14252 times.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 102):
Thats why some of the things apple had are being implemented and benefit the charter and scheduled biz. Think soft product upgrades and route upgrades.

Sorry, I have no idea what that means or how it relates. Frontier and Apple have been doing business together for a long time.

  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: USPIT10L
Posted 2010-09-08 21:01:50 and read 14232 times.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 96):
I still have my doubts about MKE - BKG. There have been bargain basement sales on that route lately which tells me it isn't doing so well.

They're running bargain-basement prices on PITMKESFO and PITMKESEA, so what difference does that make? I am starting to understand why they're cutting back some of the connecting feed at MKE, in terms of frequency. But once again, I have to ask, why would you cut down on frequency when you leave your employees with little options when something does go wrong? On most weekday mornings, if there's a mechanical or weather delay, we have nowhere to send our customers others than our own flights. Put simply, RW needs to figure out what their long-term plan is with F9. These high-cost, low-yielding RJs (E135/145s) are not the answer. I like the 170s and 190s, but clearly RW has other flying with those planes and have little capacity to throw around, either in reality or to speculate with.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-08 21:04:06 and read 14245 times.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 106):
Put simply, RW needs to figure out what their long-term plan is with F9.

You don't think the order for E190's and the intention to phase out some of the smaller aircraft suggests that have figured that out?

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2010-09-08 22:02:11 and read 14185 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 105):
Sorry, I have no idea what that means or how it relates. Frontier and Apple have been doing business together for a long time.

LOL sorry to much wine earlier.   Basically Apple/Funjet had a list of requirements that they wanted FL to take care of to make the charter flight experience better in order to maintain the flying they were given. The changes required fleet wide soft product changes, crew training in terms of slight differences in sub service versus regular scheduled ops, leather seats being fast tracked with new soft seat cushions, not to mention to reduce flight times the 737's being certified for extended over water ops which is also being fast tracked ahead of the charter flying season. These changes along with others coming up, also benefit the scheduled ops as well. FL views the Apple flying as very important and undoubtedly will go after more of it in the future. There is MORE then enough of it for FL and F9.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2010-09-08 23:06:48 and read 14167 times.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 106):
Put simply, RW needs to figure out what their long-term plan is with F9. These high-cost, low-yielding RJs (E135/145s) are not the answer. I like the 170s and 190s, but clearly RW has other flying with those planes and have little capacity to throw around, either in reality or to speculate with.

As Mariner stated I think the Management has figured that issue out with the order of the 24 E190/5. The statement that was made when they announced the purchase that with this purchase it would be possible for them to remove the smaller a/c from the fleet of their branded operations. So I understood that to mean that the 135's and 140/5 were history even though they did not directly say that.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mke717spotter
Posted 2010-09-09 01:03:44 and read 14146 times.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 109):
So I understood that to mean that the 135's and 140/5 were history even though they did not directly say that.


As much as I'd like to see MKE-MSN/GRB/ATW/etc. be upgraded to all E170, I'm pretty sure they're going to have to keep at least a couple of the smaller ERJs for those kinda routes.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-09-09 06:21:33 and read 14090 times.

Enjoy this...
It says UA spent $330 million in legal fees while in Ch11. I wonder what F9's cost? My jaw dropped at the UA number.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/08/news...rtune/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-09-09 07:21:46 and read 14018 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 111):
Enjoy this...
It says UA spent $330 million in legal fees while in Ch11. I wonder what F9's cost? My jaw dropped at the UA number.

UA was in a very extended bk, it's no wonder it was so costly. I'm sure F9's legal fees are measured in the tens of millions, probably a lot less unless they have some really expensive lawyers.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: sideflare75
Posted 2010-09-09 17:39:00 and read 13800 times.

Quoting pilotfox (Reply 98):
Anyone know if any planes are getting repainted, its after Labor Day....

I saw one 145 in for paint right now. A/C 270. Scheduled to be done around the 17th. So yes they are ramping up the painting again like they said they would. I for one can't wait to see some of those 145's get painted. Some of them really look bad.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mke717spotter
Posted 2010-09-09 18:00:29 and read 13760 times.

Quoting sideflare75 (Reply 113):


I agree, all of the Embraers in the generic colors should be the first ones to go.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-09-09 19:30:16 and read 13707 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 112):
UA was in a very extended bk, it's no wonder it was so costly. I'm sure F9's legal fees are measured in the tens of millions, probably a lot less unless they have some really expensive lawyers.

No doubt, but still a staggering number.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: knope2001
Posted 2010-09-09 20:04:02 and read 13690 times.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 96):
I still have my doubts about MKE - BKG. There have been bargain basement sales on that route lately which tells me it isn't doing so well.

Leisure traffic tends to drop off a cliff in September. From what I've seen the Branson loads from MKE were pretty good this summer...at least the flights I'm aware of...but there are probably some flights this month which are pretty light. Of course yield is just as important as load, and just because a low fare sale price is offered doesn't necessarily mean it's widely available. The advertised $34 fare might just be getting a little gravy on select lighter-booked fall flights after a very strong July/August. Or maybe they gave away the farm this summer to fill seats, and now this fall they have to lower fares even more to get some butts in the seats before the flights end for the season. The truth is probably someplace in the middle.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 106):
They're running bargain-basement prices on PITMKESFO and PITMKESEA, so what difference does that make? I am starting to understand why they're cutting back some of the connecting feed at MKE, in terms of frequency.

How are your loads, and are there many locals? Those PIT-SEA/SFO passengers are just as likely to be about filling seats on MKE-SEA/SFO than they are about the state of PIT. Both SFO and SEA nonstops from Milwaukee are late PM flights, and that worked oaky during the summer peak season. Now it is after Labor Day and demand drops considerably...especially for off-peak flights. Some of those PM west coast flights are booked relatively lightly, so picking up some junk traffic to fill seats in a market like PIT-SFO softens the blow.

The RJ markets...especially the business ones...really live and die by the yield of the local business traffic. I came in from Columbus the other day and we were about 60% full. I (my client) paid about $200 for the one-way ticket CMH-MKE, and that hardly the highest I've paid. If 25 of us paid that high $200 local MKE fare and the other 5 paid $90 to fly CMH-MKE-SEA, the RJ flight still brought in $5150 (splitting 1/3 of the CMH-SEA fare to the CMH-MKE leg)....even with 20 empty seats. On theo ther hand, if the flight was 100% full but all 50 people were on those $90 CMH-SEA fares, the CMH-MKE revenue is only $1500...only abuot 29% of the revenue of my flight with a few cheap fares and lots of empty seats.

If you're seeing cheap PIT-SEA and PIT-SFO fares, but the flights still hae a good number of highe-fare local passenges, it's not necessarily a bad mark for PIT. If on the other hand there are only a few locals but the bulk of seats are either empty or carrying cheap west coast connex, that's a different story.

Especially in the winter season when many of the RJ markets slow way down, several of these traditionally flew under half full. I do a whole lot of traveling in those markets, and in the deadest of winter I've flown out on Monday morning on a flight packed with briefcase-toters, but then flying home on Tuesday afternoon there weren't more than 5 people onboard. Now in those days business fares were universally high, and I suspect Midwest simply accepted that they lost a lot of money in winter. Today, Skywest's competition holds fares to (questionably) low levels in markets like Pittsburgh, and the blind acceptance of persistant loss in the RJ division isn't there. I'm hopeful that next spring/summer brings another flight back to markets like PIT and IND, but for this winter cutting back just to AM and PM flights gives them a much better shot of pulling out of the red.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: USPIT10L
Posted 2010-09-10 08:37:34 and read 13509 times.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 116):
How are your loads, and are there many locals? Those PIT-SEA/SFO passengers are just as likely to be about filling seats on MKE-SEA/SFO than they are about the state of PIT. Both SFO and SEA nonstops from Milwaukee are late PM flights, and that worked oaky during the summer peak season. Now it is after Labor Day and demand drops considerably...especially for off-peak flights. Some of those PM west coast flights are booked relatively lightly, so picking up some junk traffic to fill seats in a market like PIT-SFO softens the blow.

Not really, at least not during the peak travel season. Our new, three-daily flight schedule just started this week, and I'm working for someone this afternoon, have to come back at 8am tomorrow and work til noon. I've been off since Wednesday.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 116):
Today, Skywest's competition holds fares to (questionably) low levels in markets like Pittsburgh, and the blind acceptance of persistant loss in the RJ division isn't there. I'm hopeful that next spring/summer brings another flight back to markets like PIT and IND, but for this winter cutting back just to AM and PM flights gives them a much better shot of pulling out of the red.

I can see a MKE flight being added in probably March or April. As I'm sure you know, we're going from three daily nonstops to two starting November 18th. That's when we'll really feel the crunch of not enough hours. I'll send you an IM detailing my thoughts on the last year with YX/F9.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-14 13:44:22 and read 13046 times.

I've done a web news search, but this is the only article on this matter I can find, and I think it deserves a mention:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...aukee-airport-sets-record/114237/1

"Milwaukee airport sets all-time passenger record"

It's great news - but it is also a Catch 22. It's happening because of the low fares, but the MKE airfares are among the lowest in the nation and if airlines tried to raise them, presumably the traffic would drop off.

Ah, well - you take what you can get.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: n7371f
Posted 2010-09-14 14:36:02 and read 12989 times.

Well this is sort of interesting...a former colleague who now is with CBS sent me a clip of Bedford in the up-coming season of CBS' 'Undercover Boss.' I noticed the PR clip uses him as CEO of Frontier - not mention of Republic.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2010-09-14 14:48:03 and read 12961 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 119):
I noticed the PR clip uses him as CEO of Frontier - not mention of Republic.

Probably because there's a better chance that the average person watching the show will know who Frontier is... and he may be doing the work shown on the show on the F9 side of the operation...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: knope2001
Posted 2010-09-14 15:12:02 and read 12935 times.

Frontier lowered the 2nd bag fee from $30 to $20. Nice to see yet another fee decreased or eliminated by them, as opposed to the general direction most airlines are heading.

http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...ervices/baggage/checked-baggage.do

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: ytib
Posted 2010-09-14 15:32:35 and read 12906 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 119):
I noticed the PR clip uses him as CEO of Frontier - not mention of Republic.

Free PR as well. No one will know how to buy a Republic ticket which will give money to another airline anyways. However Frontier will be happy to get more exposure and there name out there as part of the program as they look to expand in some new areas.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-15 13:52:52 and read 12640 times.

CAK did well in August:

http://www.cantonrep.com/stark/x1470...Airport-enjoys-busiest-August-ever

"Akron-Canton Airport enjoys busiest August ever"

Given the hoo-haa that is presently happening about United/Continental at CLE, I wonder what the future holds. Does the future involve CAK and CLE, as now, or one or the other?

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: n7371f
Posted 2010-09-15 17:54:11 and read 12532 times.

Go check out today's Denver Post which has a write up on Southwest's latest attempt to get more share in Denver. It's a outdoor porch on the 16th street mall with food and drinks. An innovative idea. Also tells me that Southwest is still struggling to nudge Frontier as the preferred low-fare airline for the people of Denver. Otherwise, you don't spend money on a get-up like a porch/deck downtown.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2010-09-15 18:11:13 and read 12501 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 124):
Go check out today's Denver Post which has a write up on Southwest's latest attempt to get more share in Denver. It's a outdoor porch on the 16th street mall with food and drinks. An innovative idea. Also tells me that Southwest is still struggling to nudge Frontier as the preferred low-fare airline for the people of Denver. Otherwise, you don't spend money on a get-up like a porch/deck downtown.

Link to above story: http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_16076426

One of the reader comments was interesting: "If they are so "dedicated to Denver," they could drop their fares back down to where they were a few months ago. A $139 ticket to Kansas City now goes for over $200."

The record shall state that I found (one-way) tickets for as low as $59, but I digress...WN is making a valiant effort, but I wonder how long they're going to keep that up.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-15 18:20:32 and read 12486 times.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 125):
The record shall state that I found (one-way) tickets for as low as $59, but I digress...WN is making a valiant effort, but I wonder how long they're going to keep that up.

I guess as long as it takes.

I've said for years that I think they will surely become #2 at DEN - and maybe #1 if they are so determined. I'd be quite pleased to see it, because then the boil would be lanced.

Southwest could boast, as they already have, that they are the new hometown airline and Frontier could just get on with its proper business.

When I first discovered Frontier they didn't even have 10% share at DEN - but they were making money.

It is partly why I hope that Frontier develops in other places - MKE, obviously, and MCI. But I would not be at all sorry to see another focus city in a different geographic position.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2010-09-15 21:25:27 and read 12448 times.

I would like to see F9 fly from DEN to CLE. Now is the time. CVG would also be a nice market to add!

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: airportguy1971
Posted 2010-09-15 22:47:56 and read 12412 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 126):
I've said for years that I think they will surely become #2 at DEN

With the (mostly) pull down of Lynx and the loss of an E-170 and 4 A-318's I expect that WN will be the #2 carrier in DEN by Oct, Nov at the latest.

Let the celebrations begin. They are #2. The hearts of (most of) the Denver flying public still will belong to F9. WN is #2. Big deal. Market Share is not the goal of the new F9. Profitability and longevity is. They will still be here, moving their chess pieces around the board. I really have faith in BB and Daniel Shurz. Let WN crow about being #2. Frontier will just focus on being Frontier. That's what'll set them apart.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2010-09-15 23:30:34 and read 12380 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 124):
Otherwise, you don't spend money on a get-up like a porch/deck downtown.

SWA is the largest airline in California, but still spends all types of money here with community outreach marketing, from participating in parades, sponsoring little league games, or having give ways in malls or on the street etc.

It was recently announced they are the sponsor of the 2011 Chinese New Year parade in San Francisco. They are even renaming the parade for them next year.
http://www.chineseparade.com/

Its simply the nature of the company, and how they market.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: n7371f
Posted 2010-09-15 23:53:07 and read 12381 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 129):
SWA is the largest airline in California, but still spends all types of money here with community outreach marketing, from participating in parades, sponsoring little league games, or having give ways in malls or on the street etc.

It was recently announced they are the sponsor of the 2011 Chinese New Year parade in San Francisco. They are even renaming the parade for them next year.
http://www.chineseparade.com/

Its simply the nature of the company, and how they market.

Good reply. Yes, WN is a great marketer - they act a lot like the old PSA did in terms of community based stuff. The painting of a push-back tow tug in a local teams colors is just one example...

However I would suggest you read up on Southwest's entrance into Denver and its build-up. There are a handful of analysts and such that have followed WN's DEN numbers and don't see them making money - yet. In the most recent quarterly numbers F9 was beating WN in market-to-market with a fare and yield premium on about 75% head-to-head cities.

Also note the bid for Frontier in bankruptcy and the view that it was merely to take out a chief competitor who was giving it fits. And I don't think the marketing in other new cities - or large markets compares with the gorilla marketing we're seeing in Denver. All of which I tend to believe is Southwest having to really "work it" to get a foothold with the Denver O&O market.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: pilotfox
Posted 2010-09-16 04:24:47 and read 12352 times.

Another E145 is out of the paint shop and arrived in MKE this morning, it looks like the tail is a fox (N270SK). Another E145 went down to IND this morning for I assume paint (N269SK).

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-16 06:01:00 and read 12322 times.

Quoting pilotfox (Reply 131):
Another E145 is out of the paint shop and arrived in MKE this morning, it looks like the tail is a fox (N270SK).

Good news - Is it this tail?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Peters


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Manas Barooah



[Edited 2010-09-16 06:04:28]

N806FR, N807FR, N810FR and N812FR are leaving the fleet. That's 4 tails we might see on another E145. 806 is a bison, 807 is a cougar, 810 is a sea turtle and 812 is a grizzly bear.


[Edited 2010-09-16 06:09:55]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: pilotfox
Posted 2010-09-16 06:43:01 and read 12272 times.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 132):

Good news - Is it this tail?

No, its a baby Fox I believe

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-16 06:53:31 and read 12266 times.

Quoting pilotfox (Reply 133):
No, its a baby Fox I believe

That's good because I think that fox tail fits better on an E170/E190. Like Luke the Lynx on N501LX it must be another Lynx tail. This is a fox named Ginger -

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Danny Fritsche

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: timf
Posted 2010-09-16 07:40:18 and read 12205 times.

Just a theory, but I'd expect to see the following:

ERJs get former Lynx tails.
E170s get the same tails they had previously.
E190s get tails used by retired aircraft with some new tails possible as well.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: beryllium
Posted 2010-09-16 09:37:10 and read 12113 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 130):
In the most recent quarterly numbers F9 was beating WN in market-to-market with a fare and yield premium on about 75% head-to-head cities.

“A fare and yield premium” over WN on 75% head-to-head cities out of DEN is all great (if it were true)…
Quick glance at the most recent quarterly results (2nd quarter 2010)…
Income before income tax…
RAH (fixed-fee): $18 million profit
RAH (branded): ($14 million) loss
WN: $184 profit

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bahadir
Posted 2010-09-16 09:50:40 and read 12084 times.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 127):
I would like to see F9 fly from DEN to CLE. Now is the time. CVG would also be a nice market to add!

I am sure it will happen eventually.. On the other hand , you may see F9 in markets that are not enterable (I made up the word) by Southwest either because of the size or because of the destination (read International) . That way you compete with a single airline (UA) instead of two.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: KDEN
Posted 2010-09-16 11:21:38 and read 12004 times.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 136):
Income before income tax…
RAH (fixed-fee): $18 million profit
RAH (branded): ($14 million) loss
WN: $184 profit

All financial results have already been discussed, so I'm not going to go there again, but you do bring up something that I think should be addressed. Even when (yes, I believe that it will happen, and soon) RAH's branded operations become profitable, you simply cannot compare the numbers to those of WN. Per their fact sheet, F9 operates 97 aircraft, with about 550 daily flights. Per their website, WN has 541 aircraft, and about 3,300 daily flights. There would be serious problems if F9 were more profitable than WN. It's like comparing Ace Hardware to Home Depot, or comparing Odell Brewing (based in Fort Collins) to Coors. Just because WN is MORE profitable doesn't make it better in any way. . .

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: beryllium
Posted 2010-09-16 12:56:56 and read 11931 times.

Quoting KDEN (Reply 138):
Per their fact sheet, F9 operates 97 aircraft, with about 550 daily flights. Per their website, WN has 541 aircraft, and about 3,300 daily flights. There would be serious problems if F9 were more profitable than WN.

AA has 600+ aircraft (per their fact sheet), NK has about 30 (per theirs).
NK is profitable, AA is not.
Do we have a serious problem because of that?
Nope, we don't.

Profitability is not about the size.
It's about the way you manage your business.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-16 13:14:41 and read 11912 times.

Quoting airportguy1971 (Reply 128):
With the (mostly) pull down of Lynx and the loss of an E-170 and 4 A-318's I expect that WN will be the #2 carrier in DEN by Oct, Nov at the latest.

This came up in another thread and - probably controversially - I believe Southwest has already done more than that at DEN.

I don't regard this present Frontier as the same airline as previous Frontier. I think this is the third incarnation, not the second. There was simply no interruption of service between the two.

I think this is a new airline with an old name. It has different owners/shareholders, different management - and different imperatives.

Republic bought the liabilities of the previous airline, which they are still accounting for, and the assets, which include extraordinary goodwill, from which they are benefitting.

I am intrigued by this new airline just as much as I was intrigued by the old, but it all might have been clearer if they had chosen another name. I think it is clearer, because of the name change, that Midwest didn't survive, it became a different airline.

So if - stress "if" - it was Southwest's intention to drive the previous Frontier out of business, then, due to a combination of unhappy circumstances, I think they can claim to have succeeded.

Happily, for me, it just didn't pan out the way they expected.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: KDEN
Posted 2010-09-16 13:30:04 and read 11872 times.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 139):

It's about the way you manage your business.

Right. How long do you think is fair for a company to settle out all of the side-effects of an acquisition (especially for a company that was in bankruptcy)? Frankly, I think it's unreasonable to assume that everything will be fixed after just two quarters. I say, give them two more, and if they still can't turn any profit, I might re-evaluate my position.

Here's where the size thing comes into play:

If (and when) the branded operations become profitable, I'm sure a different comparison will appear on these boards. The competition made this much of a profit, Frontier made this much. Apples to apples. Even though Frontier and Southwest are both airlines, we cannot directly compare their numbers. They aren't in the same ball field. As Frontier is so much smaller than Southwest, they are bound to make less revenue, therefore likely less profit. I feel like that frequently gets overlooked on these boards. Profit is profit, loss is loss. As someone who has spent a lot of time analyzing public companies, the context is much more important than the actual numbers.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: beryllium
Posted 2010-09-16 13:58:24 and read 11827 times.

Quoting KDEN (Reply 141):
If (and when) the branded operations become profitable, I'm sure a different comparison will appear on these boards. The competition made this much of a profit, Frontier made this much. Apples to apples. Even though Frontier and Southwest are both airlines, we cannot directly compare their numbers. They aren't in the same ball field. As Frontier is so much smaller than Southwest, they are bound to make less revenue, therefore likely less profit. I feel like that frequently gets overlooked on these boards. Profit is profit, loss is loss. As someone who has spent a lot of time analyzing public companies, the context is much more important than the actual numbers.

Sure, the size of operation translates into different revenue (and cost) numbers.
But, you don't have to compare in absolute terms.
There is a good measurement called "a margin" - a ratio between profit and revenue - it is a good way to compare airlines in terms of how well they are conducting their operations regardless of their size.
In Q2-2010:
RAH:
Total revenue - $683 million
Income (before income tax) - $5 million
Margin: 0.7%
WN:
Total revenue - $3,168 million
Income (before income tax) - $184 million
Margin: 5.8%
US (Q2 champion) - mentioned here just for the comparison:
Total revenue - $3,171 million
Income (before income tax) - $279 million
Margin: 8.8%

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-16 13:59:42 and read 11868 times.

Here's an interesting one. Airtran has announced TPA-SJU as 2 x daily.

Airtran To Start TPA-SJU (by HeavyMX1 Sep 16 2010 in Civil Aviation)

In pretty much the same moment, JetBlue has announced TPA-SJU - as 1 x daily:

B6 To Launch TPA-SJU (by jetbluefan1 Sep 16 2010 in Civil Aviation)

And American already flies TPA-SJU.

Now, I'm sure these airlines have done their homework and justify the service, but it seems crazy to me. Unless there is extraordinary unfulfilled demand for TPA-SJU all this can do is kill everybody's yields.

More and more, I am pleased to see the new Frontier approach, the move from TPA to PIE, for example. But I am NOT suggesting Frontier start PIE-SJU - I think there are so many other interesting places.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2010-09-16 14:03:31 and read 11849 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 143):
In pretty much the same moment, JetBlue has announced TPA-SJU - as 1 x daily:

jetBlue announced 1x daily going to 2x daily the following month.. so it's gonna be interesting..

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: jgrantco
Posted 2010-09-16 15:42:20 and read 11769 times.

Hi all, been enjoying the discussions on this thread for a few weeks. Just had jump in seeing the TPA-SJU posts and going from 1 per day to 3 or 4. I was thinking about my 1am DL flight to ATL for 2 1/2 hr connection to SJU I'm taking next month. I remembered a previous mention of bringing back DEN JAX. Bringing back the old F9 red-eye DEN-JAX and continue on JAX-SJU would be great for the Rocky Mountain customers trying to get to Caribbean destinations or cruise connections. No idea of the current numbers traveling from DEN and looks like no other service JAX-SJU. Not much marketing in this region to the Caribbean destinations, could be a good addition.

grant

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: jgrantco
Posted 2010-09-16 16:19:24 and read 11744 times.

Wanted to add, in case some want to know who is this stranger. I worked for DL many years, was part of the crew that opened up the DL DEN Res office back in 1980 when DL had visions of a DEN hub. Took off for ATL when DL/WA merged a few years later before the res office staff was moved to SLC. I left DL & ATL back in '95 so that I could return to DEN. I remain loyal to DL as it is my original hometown airline, MLU born/raised but DEN resident now for too many years to count. Most of my travel takes me into MLU or SHV, MLB, IND, MDW, SFO, LAX. Also to ATL often, have flown F9 to ATL but it's hard to beat the frequency of flights DEN-ATL on DL. Prefer the EarlyReturns program with F9 and believe the F9 customer contact folks are the best out there. Thanks!

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: n7371f
Posted 2010-09-16 18:40:41 and read 11671 times.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 136):
“A fare and yield premium” over WN on 75% head-to-head cities out of DEN is all great (if it were true)…
Quick glance at the most recent quarterly results (2nd quarter 2010)…
Income before income tax…
RAH (fixed-fee): $18 million profit
RAH (branded): ($14 million) loss
WN: $184 profit

These numbers are irrelevant to my post - WN vs F9 at DEN. I'm not talking about network vs network.

Go research the head-to-head numbers from the most recent quarters. Yield, average fare, etc...F9 beats WN in just about 75% of the markets they compete in out of DEN.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2010-09-16 22:10:26 and read 11574 times.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 127):
I would like to see F9 fly from DEN to CLE.

So would I... just booked a January excursion to Seattle for me and my wife on CO... as much as I love CO, I hate having to connect through Houston on the way back... if F9 flew DEN-CLE there's a good chance the price would have been competitive with CO's, at least on the return leg.

Quoting mariner (Reply 140):
Happily, for me, it just didn't pan out the way they expected.

Nothing with F9 ever seems to pan out the way their competitors (and detractors) expect.

Quoting KDEN (Reply 141):
Quoting beryllium (Reply 142):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 147):

Of course, the other thing you have to take into account if you look at overall corporate profitability is that in many cases that number has very little to do with how much CASH actually came in and went out. Those one time or recurring accounting charges are often nothing but paper that only has to be counted because the government says so.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: beryllium
Posted 2010-09-16 22:19:49 and read 11561 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 147):
These numbers are irrelevant to my post - WN vs F9 at DEN. I'm not talking about network vs network.

Go research the head-to-head numbers from the most recent quarters. Yield, average fare, etc...F9 beats WN in just about 75% of the markets they compete in out of DEN.

I don't have to research anything. (You can post the numbers if you have them).
The point is that as long as F9 cannot find the way to operate profitably overall, the fact that they ("supposedly") outperform WN in DEN in every possible dimension in 75% of "head-to-head" markets does not mean much.
Even if it's true that WN is losing big to F9 in DEN (and there are doubts about that), it is clear that WN is not going anywhere anytime soon - they can afford those DEN losses for some time, because (unlike F9) they are a very profitable airline system-wide.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-09-17 07:06:03 and read 11471 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 143):
Now, I'm sure these airlines have done their homework and justify the service, but it seems crazy to me. Unless there is extraordinary unfulfilled demand for TPA-SJU all this can do is kill everybody's yields.

You'll likely see AA drop this route in the future and use their interline agreement with B6 to feed their network. AMR is shrinking so fast that they are quickly transforming themselves into an airline that doesn't actually fly planes but one that sells tickets.

There have been rumors of B6 opening up a SJU base. Then of course there are the even wilder speculation that B6 is buying MQ/NA or MQ/NA are buying B6.


As far as F9 being profitable, sound the alarm bells in a year if there are still losses. For now the accountants have to pencil whip the crap out of books to get rid of all those merger and chapter 11 expenses. Bedford has said they will not be profitable this year.

Also there are always ways to manipulate financial numbers (all perfectly legal), AMR for example is very very good at this. They've managed to be "unprofitable" for years while ordering hundreds of new aircraft and paying down $7 billion in debt (plus a bunch of other things). If things were as bad as they play to the public Wall Street and the BOD would have had Arpey and Co. removed long ago or there would have been a chapter 11 filing.

The point is F9 could be operationally profitable right now but still be losing money because of merger expenses. The only concern for F9 is if WN and FL trash yields so much in DEN and MKE that they can't make money. They seem to be working on this though by expanding elsewhere like MCI. If DL continues to abandon CVG or UA eventually abandons CLE those might be cities worth looking into for F9.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: airfrnt
Posted 2010-09-17 09:41:56 and read 11389 times.

Quoting airportguy1971 (Reply 128):

Let the celebrations begin. They are #2. The hearts of (most of) the Denver flying public still will belong to F9. WN is #2. Big deal. Market Share is not the goal of the new F9. Profitability and longevity is. They will still be here, moving their chess pieces around the board. I really have faith in BB and Daniel Shurz. Let WN crow about being #2. Frontier will just focus on being Frontier. That's what'll set them apart.

Indeed. If the rumors are correct, and UA is about to start a epic draw down of the DEN hub, WN is positioned to benefit from that withdrawal. F9's survival at this point is not in question even with WN's growth. The question is now, in my mind, can UA and WN happily co-exist at DEN.

The answer to that question will be interesting to say the least.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-17 13:08:24 and read 11360 times.

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 151):
The question is now, in my mind, can UA and WN happily co-exist at DEN.

I think that's always been the real battle - although Frontier might be simply collateral damage.

I've never believed that Southwest came to DEN specifically to kill Frontier, although I'm sure they assumed that Frontier might die.

Southwest is so massive and has such resources that it becomes a juggernaut, an almost unstoppable force. They wanted DEN - they got DEN, and, as Mr. Kelly said, they changed the model to do so.

It achieves a certain inevitability. Like Sherman's March to the Sea, Southwest marched to the mountains. It is impossible for me to imagine that - at any point - Southwest would have folded its DEN tent and left.

The only puzzle for me is why so many Southwest supporters seem to think that Frontier matters in this equation.

mariner

[Edited 2010-09-17 13:52:41]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: RJNUT
Posted 2010-09-17 14:19:27 and read 11302 times.

X1533/17SEP
*REPUBLIC AIRLINE INC
MCI 910A 81
MSY C3 1105A
9MCI/SHIP701 EQPEM7 *0828*IND0RB
3MCI/ETD 1715 MX-MECHANICAL *1551*IND0RB
2MSY/PRE 1904 *1551*IND0RB
>

why are they running this thing 8hours late? at what point does one decide to just canclel?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-09-17 14:46:36 and read 11252 times.

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 153):

why are they running this thing 8hours late? at what point does one decide to just canclel?

They probably need the aircraft there.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2010-09-17 19:32:18 and read 11112 times.

Ah the a.net rumor mill!

Quoting norcal (Reply 150):
There have been rumors of B6 opening up a SJU base.

This one is fairly sensible, if only because B6 has tried numerous spokes already (EWR, IAD, SDQ, and now TPA).

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 151):
If the rumors are correct, and UA is about to start a epic draw down of the DEN hub,

However this one is way out there. An "epic" draw down?!? DEN is a key gateway to profitable heartland markets like FAR, BIL, ASE, TUL, OMA, and others that do make UA money. These and others cannot be effectively served only from ORD/IAH/SFO/LAX. DEN's role is too crucial to the system to give up!

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: AirDX
Posted 2010-09-17 22:48:10 and read 11050 times.

For your viewing pleasure, N270SK- fresh from the paint shop...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-18 07:56:02 and read 10928 times.

A Shuttle America E170 will be on static display today for those attending the Family Aviation Festival at IND.

Republic is donating the use of the aircraft for static display in support of Grace on Wings, a charity that provides air ambulance operations to patients too ill for commercial air service or ground transportation and who cannot afford the cost of private air travel.

The event is planned for 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. Admission and parking is free and, in addition to static aircraft displays, the festival will feature a silent auction, airport fire department vehicle display, door prizes, carnival games and more.

For more information, go to the following page at the Grace on Wings website:

www.graceonwings.org/news.html

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-21 03:41:25 and read 10590 times.

Some interesting sponsorships - with the critters involved - for three year contracts:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fro...ps-2010-09-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

"Frontier Airlines Announces New College Sponsorships

Three of Frontier's popular animals are drawing battle lines, sporting team colors and shouting fight songs across the tarmac in preparation for the 2010/2011 college sports season. Frontier Airlines today announced it is now the official airline of Colorado State University, University of Colorado and University of Wyoming athletics and has appointed Stanley the bighorn sheep, Humphrey the American bison and Sally the mustang as the official animals of these teams."


I think this is all good stuff, but I still think Milwaukee has the best name branding with the Frontier Airlines Center. I love that concept.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bahadir
Posted 2010-09-21 07:07:29 and read 10501 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 158):
Some interesting sponsorships - with the critters involved - for three year contracts:

I carried lotsa college football fans on Sunday's SEA-MKE red-eye .. I guess the marketing to college football fans is working out good

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: n7371f
Posted 2010-09-21 08:06:43 and read 10444 times.

Quoting bahadir (Reply 159):
I carried lotsa college football fans on Sunday's SEA-MKE red-eye .. I guess the marketing to college football fans is working out good

Nebraska fans heading back to OMA via MKE following their nuke job on the Fuskies.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: n7371f
Posted 2010-09-21 08:07:52 and read 10461 times.

Well, here we go with ASE again. Flight Global quotes Shurz as saying F9 is going to try and get the E190 and if not, the E170 certified in ASE. Article makes it sound like they never tried before. Who knows...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-190-certification-for-aspen.html

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FRNT787
Posted 2010-09-21 10:07:00 and read 10375 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 161):
Well, here we go with ASE again. Flight Global quotes Shurz as saying F9 is going to try and get the E190 and if not, the E170 certified in ASE. Article makes it sound like they never tried before. Who knows...

This is the first quote I have seen regarding definite jet plans regarding ASE. Should be interesting.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-21 11:54:37 and read 10317 times.

There's another interview, in Flight Global this time, with Daniel Shurz about international expansion. It's pretty much the same as he said in the last interview - heck, it may even have been at the same venue.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rther-international-expansion.html

"Frontier Airlines is eyeing further expansion of its international network beyond its current services to Mexico and Costa Rica"

Routes currently under evaluation include Denver to Belize, Roatan in Honduras, Grand Cayman and Montego Bay."


He talks about Mexico a little, and mentions but somehow dodges MEX, and at the end he talks about the limitation of range and gives a Big Cheer to the longest route - FAI.

Hmmmm.

Not that he asked my advice - LOL - but as always, I'd give a tick to BZE, and I suppose MBJ and GCM are inevitable. I'd love to see them at RTB, but I just don't know how much of a market it is.

I could add one more international to the list, a desirable tourist island that no other US scheduled airlines serves, but it would be too far from DEN and MCI and just too far from MKE.

It would be a doddle from PIE, though.

mariner

[Edited 2010-09-21 12:30:12]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-21 12:28:15 and read 10297 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 163):
"Frontier Airlines is eyeing further expansion of its international network beyond its current services to Mexico and Costa Rica"

This article also states:

Frontier vice president strategy and planning Daniel Shurz says the Denver-based carrier will not ad any other destinations for winter 2010/2011, but is now starting to look at destinations for next year.

So it looks like winter 2011/2012 may be the soonest that any of this will happen? I would imagine that BZE, RTB, MBJ and GCM are all seasonal winter destinations?

Keep everyone guessing for a while here...

As for MEX or even GDL, the opportunity looks good now. Unfortunate for the Mexican carriers that they are under the FAA restriction at this time. Although AM has served DEN-MEX seasonably and less than weekly, I imagine they will start the route again sometime soon, since they have had the previous authority.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2010-09-21 13:23:24 and read 10249 times.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 162):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 161):
Well, here we go with ASE again. Flight Global quotes Shurz as saying F9 is going to try and get the E190 and if not, the E170 certified in ASE. Article makes it sound like they never tried before. Who knows...

This is the first quote I have seen regarding definite jet plans regarding ASE. Should be interesting.

This is certainly more transparent than previous announcements, though I must commend a.net for having it all figured out (and explained in great detail)!

I think the real news here is the fact that ASE is willing to change its wingspan and weight limits specifically to accommodate the E-190. The town may not have wanted 737s coming in 15 years ago, but after the latest economic scare, looks like they may want to do what it takes to keep as many tourists coming in as possible.

Quoting mariner (Reply 163):
He talks about Mexico a little, and mentions but somehow dodges MEX

The article does say that F9 evaluates "leisure markets". Polluted chaotic and dangerous MEX is exactly the opposite of leisure, if you ask me!

Quoting mariner (Reply 163):
limitation of range

Hawaii aside, there aren't too many places beyond Alaska/Mexico/Central America/Jamaica that really draw that many folks from the "West". I can't see something like DEN-SJU being feasible even if the airline had the proper plane to fly it

Quoting mariner (Reply 163):
gives a Big Cheer to the longest route - FAI.

Didn't FAI receive some pretty big federal grant to get F9 in the first place? It sounded like they threw an awful lot of financial support behind F9. Will the service be sustainable once that money runs out?

Quoting point2point (Reply 164):
So it looks like winter 2011/2012 may be the soonest that any of this will happen? I would imagine that BZE, RTB, MBJ and GCM are all seasonal winter destinations?

They can always go back to Canada next summer  .

Quoting point2point (Reply 164):
As for MEX or even GDL, the opportunity looks good now.

Not really. F9 is ill-suited to serving ethnic VFR heavy markets like that. They are great at getting Americans to the sandy beaches of Cozumel and Cabo. But catering to Mexicans who want to pay for their tickets in cash and can't speak a word of English? Not so much.

Quoting point2point (Reply 164):
Unfortunate for the Mexican carriers that they are under the FAA restriction at this time.

Very unfortunate. AM and Volaris would have gotten most of the MX traffic. Now a lot of it will shift to the U.S. carriers.

Quoting point2point (Reply 164):
Although AM has served DEN-MEX seasonably and less than weekly, I imagine they will start the route again sometime soon, since they have had the previous authority.

UA has already announced DEN-MEX. Even if AM can fly it, I'm not sure they will. They have bigger fish to fry these days.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-21 13:56:48 and read 10213 times.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 165):
The article does say that F9 evaluates "leisure markets". Polluted chaotic and dangerous MEX is exactly the opposite of leisure, if you ask me!

I haven't been to Mexico City for about five years, but I've been there a lot and I've never found it dangerous. The very mild chaos is part of its charm for me.

I think it is one of the great cities, I would happily go back there anytime. But each to their own - always.

For Frontier, I think that eventually, somehow, they will have to break away from the beaches and come to terms with inland Mexico. I doubt that will do that until they have achieved sustained profitability, but I very much hope it does happen.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 165):
Didn't FAI receive some pretty big federal grant to get F9 in the first place?

I had not heard that and it may well be true, but it seems mildly irrelevant. How long has ICT supported Airtran and, to a very much lesser extent, Frontier?

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2010-09-21 14:04:47 and read 10205 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 158):
I think this is all good stuff, but I still think Milwaukee has the best name branding with the Frontier Airlines Center. I love that concept.

I wonder if they might partner with some Wisconsin schools... Or maybe a college near Kansas City or Omaha?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: rampart
Posted 2010-09-21 14:35:04 and read 10180 times.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 167):
Or maybe a college near Kansas City or Omaha?

I can see a jayhawk on a tail. But a cornhusker? Wha'ts a cornhusker?? And does it belong in the Frontier animal menagerie?  
Or were you thinking Creighton and Rockhurst? (Jays and Hawks, interestingly enough).

Taking farther, it would be amusing for F9 to strike deep into WN territory and designate a Sooner or Lobo.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-21 15:17:34 and read 10149 times.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 165):
F9 is ill-suited to serving ethnic VFR heavy markets like that. They are great at getting Americans to the sandy beaches of Cozumel and Cabo. But catering to Mexicans who want to pay for their tickets in cash and can't speak a word of English? Not so much.

Hmmmm....it's not....that...difficult...is it?

I don't speak a word of Spanish, but if I were a counter agent, I think that I could be able to figure out how to get the cash and put someone on a plane correctly.


edit added: I could see Nassau (NAS) being a possible destination, and that is in range for F9 metal.

[Edited 2010-09-21 15:27:48]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: JBo
Posted 2010-09-21 16:46:45 and read 10102 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 158):
I think this is all good stuff, but I still think Milwaukee has the best name branding with the Frontier Airlines Center. I love that concept.

Although the Frontier Airlines Center is not a sports venue.

As for animals on the tails for sports teams ... it'd be kind of redundant to have another badger on the tail. However, they could always have a wolverine (which are, in fact, pretty much nonexistent within the State of Michigan) or a gopher.

Now if they ever figure out what a Hoosier is ...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: airportguy1971
Posted 2010-09-21 16:56:41 and read 10098 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 166):
I haven't been to Mexico City for about five years, but I've been there a lot and I've never found it dangerous. The very mild chaos is part of its charm for me.

I think it is one of the great cities, I would happily go back there anytime. But each to their own - always.




A very interesting comment from someone who is so vehemently apposed to this airline serving MEM...

 

I've lived in the mid-south, and have family in the MEM area. Not everyone is a backward as you encountered when you were down there with Mr. Haley, and it's nowhere near the danger Mexico City can be for the average American...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: MKENut
Posted 2010-09-21 16:56:49 and read 10106 times.

I would love to see more MKE - International routes but I'm afraid Frontier may not be the airline to that will do more than just some Mexico routes. I have a feeling that AirTran will be the first to try MKE - YUL, YYZ and maybe YVR.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: n7371f
Posted 2010-09-21 18:17:38 and read 10034 times.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 172):
I would love to see more MKE - International routes but I'm afraid Frontier may not be the airline to that will do more than just some Mexico routes. I have a feeling that AirTran will be the first to try MKE - YUL, YYZ and maybe YVR.

With the exception of Toronto, there isn't enough demand for Montreal nonstops or Vancouver, unless perhaps a few months in the summer - and that would be with a pretty significant hub feed. If Frontier were to build up MKE to a certain mass then you can start thinking about a couple 50 seaters into YUL and a 319 to YVR from May to August.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-21 19:03:58 and read 9998 times.

Quoting airportguy1971 (Reply 171):
A very interesting comment from someone who is so vehemently apposed to this airline serving MEM...

I can only speak as I find.

I have never had a problem in Mexico City - I accept that others may have - but as you obviously recall I did have problems in and around Memphis, even inside the Peabody. There were some encounters that I have never posted and all of them were to do with race. I do accept that AH and I were very unlikely and conspicuous traveling companions.

I loved the cafeteria we went to in Memphis, though. AH and I went back to it several times, at my request, and I would do so again. It is one of my favorite memories of America. Once there was a (black) Baptist Convention in the city and all the wives went to the cafeteria for lunch, dressed in their full, brilliantly colored finery. I count myself lucky that we were there that day - I basked in their warm shadow.

As to Frontier serving MEM, I didn't agree with the approach they took. Mostly, I never understood why they went looking for another battle with NWA, with the disaster of LAX-MSP so fresh in everyone's minds.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: airportguy1971
Posted 2010-09-21 19:23:07 and read 9992 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 174):
I have never had a problem in Mexico City

Then you are very lucky. I do not want to go back there. Ever.

Travel Warning - U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE - Bureau of Consular Affairs

Quote:
American employees of the U.S. Embassy are prohibited from hailing taxis on the street in Mexico City because of frequent robberies. American citizens are urged to only use taxis associated with the organized taxi stands (“sitios”) that are common throughout Mexico.

U.S. citizens should be alert to pickpockets and general street crime throughout Mexico, but especially in large cities. Between FY 2006 and FY 2009 the number of U.S. passports reported stolen in Mexico rose from 184 to 288.


Memphis in 2010 doesn't frighten me as much as Mexico City did.

[Edited 2010-09-21 19:24:23]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-09-22 01:43:17 and read 9851 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 163):
I'd love to see them at RTB, but I just don't know how much of a market it is.

Pretty much a divers market, I don't know too many who just go there to hang out on the beach. They have some nasty sand fleas.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mcg
Posted 2010-09-22 11:55:04 and read 9769 times.

My neighbors (in Denver) go to RTB once or twice a year to dive. I think it could work from DEN 3 or 4 days a week.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-22 13:47:22 and read 9704 times.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 172):
I have a feeling that AirTran will be the first to try MKE - YUL, YVR.

Canada has proven to be a difficult market for the LCC's. No matter how much anyone thinks it should work, the few that have been tried haven't worked, most notably Frontier's Calgary - YYC - which wasn't good, and Vancouver - YVR - which only worked in high summer.

I don't know the in's and out's of Midwest and Toronto - YAM (Canadian Sault Ste. Marie) at 250 miles from MKE, or even Sudbury - YYZ. But then again, I believe Delta has dropped the old Northwest route to Thunder Bay -
There must be a way to do it and I hope that DS and Frontier can find it. But if Airtran gets there first, I can only wish 'em good luck.

mariner

[Edited 2010-09-22 13:50:08]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-22 13:55:58 and read 9696 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 178):
I don't know the in's and out's of Midwest and Toronto - YAM (Canadian Sault Ste. Marie) at 250 miles from MKE, or even Sudbury - YYZ. But then again, I believe Delta has dropped the old Northwest route to Thunder Bay -

There must be a way to do it and I hope that DS and Frontier can find it. But if Airtran gets there first, I can only wish 'em good luck.

mariner

I edited one word in that post and a whole bunch of it disappeared (and some got underlined), and it doesn't make sense so I'll try again:

"I don't know the ins and outs of Midwest and Toronto - YYZ - but they dropped it, so I assume it wasn't gang-busters.

Maybe it needs a different approach and the smaller cities are the go - Canadian Sault Ste. Marie (YAM) at 250 miles form MKE or even Sudbury (YSB) giving those cities a way to the US and the west rather than going east through YYZ.

Ot maybe it is Montreal/Quebec, but I think that would only work if they embraced the French language - "Nous parlons votre langue" - which could have its own problems.

There must be a way to do it and I hope DS - Frontier can find it, but if Airtran gets there first, I can only wish ;em good luck.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: MKENut
Posted 2010-09-22 17:03:14 and read 9618 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 179):
I don't know the ins and outs of Midwest and Toronto - YYZ - but they dropped it, so I assume it wasn't gang-busters

You are right mariner, something weird happened to MKE - YYZ. O&D Traffic dropped like a rock for both YX and Air Canada. I don't think Air Canada is doing so well, even without any competition on the route.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-09-23 06:14:48 and read 9463 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 161):
Well, here we go with ASE again. Flight Global quotes Shurz as saying F9 is going to try and get the E190 and if not, the E170 certified in ASE. Article makes it sound like they never tried before. Who knows...

IBT supposedly called management out for violating the RAH scope clause by trying to have Lynx pilots fly the Q400 on the Republic certificate before SLI. According to their website it looks like they've elected to keep Lynx around a little while longer. I checked a couple of flights in October and they all said "operated by Lynx Aviation," and showed a Q-400. Don't know if that's true or not but I assume since they are selling tickets they aren't still planning on shutting down Lynx in 7 days.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-23 06:18:59 and read 9468 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 181):
According to their website it looks like they've elected to keep Lynx around a little while longer. I checked a couple of flights in October and they all said "operated by Lynx Aviation," and showed a Q-400. Don't know if that's true or not but I assume since they are selling tickets they aren't still planning on shutting down Lynx in 7 days.

This makes sense. I've got a friend who works at Lynx in Broomfield and she says she has now been extended until January.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-25 04:27:56 and read 9177 times.

Just an FYI about PIE


On Tuesday, the airport released details of its marketing agreements that provide fee waivers for one year amounting to $85,000 in savings for Frontier.

In addition, the Pinellas airport will provide $125,000 in marketing incentives for the first six months of Frontier service as the initial phase of an incentive program the county-owned airport will provide pending county commission approval.


Looks like about $210,000 for a year.

I guess you gotta love those incentives if you're an airline


http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep...-to-attract-new-flight/news-money/

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-25 11:48:35 and read 9057 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 183):
Just an FYI about PIE

Thanks, that's one of the more interesting articles I've read in a while.

I suppose I am slightly surprised that TPA feels the need to get into the act as well. It's well served by LCC's - and very well served by Southwest.

I guess the article was written before American announced they were dropping TPA-SJU and that may partly explain it.

The quote intrigued me, too.

Quoting point2point (Reply 183):
In addition, the Pinellas airport will provide $125,000 in marketing incentives for the first six months of Frontier service as the initial phase of an incentive program the county-owned airport will provide pending county commission approval.

If this is just the "initial phase" - I wonder what the rest of the package is.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-25 18:00:10 and read 8950 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 184):
Thanks, that's one of the more interesting articles I've read in a while.

You're welcome, my pleasure.

And yes, it is interesting to know the actual $$$s that the airports give out to get what they want.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2010-09-25 20:54:31 and read 8899 times.

Just a thought concerning the DCA slots. F9 may want to emulate G4 and connect the Pentagon to the closest city serving any of the top five military installations in the U.S.

For example DCA to KCKV which serves Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the third largest Army base in the world . I think a once daily non-stop flight using the E190 would fit neatly. Currently travelers would have to drive to BNA some sixty miles away to catch a flight. I think Fort Bragg in NC might be another as would any of large installations in Texas not already served.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-09-26 09:38:41 and read 8761 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 186):
I think Fort Bragg in NC

Fort Bragg is in Fayetteville, NC which is currently served by AA, DL and US.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2010-09-26 14:16:48 and read 8678 times.

About 10 days ago word was that another E145 was headed to the paint shop, has it returned and are there any E170 or 190's in the paint shop and when will they return from the paint shop?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2010-09-26 17:37:56 and read 8595 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 174):
I loved the cafeteria we went to in Memphis, though.

I went to MEM for training when I worked at NW. I went to this little cozy tavern near the hotel, and the food was down right great. As far as race, I never once felt uncomfortable. In fact, I felt like I was welcomed everywhere I went. I would love to see F9 go back to MEM.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: n7371f
Posted 2010-09-26 18:15:11 and read 8578 times.

To the few on here who actually work for F9 in DEN - are you completely out of the CO hangar? I was there Sunday & saw no sign of F9 at the hangar - no planes obviously but the rigging was gone & saw no ground equip either.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: pilotfox
Posted 2010-09-27 00:32:25 and read 8461 times.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 188):
About 10 days ago word was that another E145 was headed to the paint shop, has it returned and are there any E170 or 190's in the paint shop and when will they return from the paint shop?

Looks like N269SK is back from paint. It has a raccoon on the tail. I'm not to sure if another plane went down to IND for paint or not.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: sunking737
Posted 2010-09-27 04:49:50 and read 8461 times.

This just in............WN BUYING FL !!!

This is big news for everyone. Just how will this effect F9? WN just got alot bigger in MKE, MCI, & ATL.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-27 05:45:29 and read 8430 times.

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 192):
This just in............WN BUYING FL !!!

This is big news for everyone. Just how will this effect F9? WN just got alot bigger in MKE, MCI, & ATL.

I believe it affects F9 the most in MKE. With MDW's close proximity WN might right size MKE and stop the foolishness that is happening there. Does WN need huge stations in both MDW and MKE? I certainly believe this will end the Skywest codeshare with FL in MKE.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-27 06:22:14 and read 8362 times.

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 192):
This just in............WN BUYING FL !!!

I have to say that they sure kept this under wraps pretty good.

One of my concerns here now, as has been for a while, is not only the effects this purchase/merger will have on F9s route system (MKE mostly) but the whole route system as well.

A second concerns is also that who, if anyone, can F9 expand with codeshares or alliances? It seems that all that is left out there is AS, and they're cozying up with both DL and AA. FL, F9 and NK were the last airlines really going it alone, and now FL is gone. WN/FL will just be so massive now, they don't need any codeshares/alliance, but could certainly be open to other international cooperation if it's out there.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-27 06:53:03 and read 8328 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 194):
A second concerns is also that who, if anyone, can F9 expand with codeshares or alliances? It seems that all that is left out there is AS, and they're cozying up with both DL and AA. FL, F9 and NK were the last airlines really going it alone, and now FL is gone. WN/FL will just be so massive now, they don't need any codeshares/alliance, but could certainly be open to other international cooperation if it's out there.

The WN/FL deal may not be all bad news for F9 and Republic. WN is going to be very, very busy with the integration and might not give a second thought about F9. We still have Sun Country, JetBlue, Spirit and Virgin America. F9 could partner with any of these airlines or continue their go it alone slow and steady growth approach. Republic could buy Sun Country. As I mentioned earlier WN might not see the need for MKE with MDW down the road. WN will see a need but is the current number of FL flights and markets served from MKE what WN needs or wants? The WN/FL merger might open a lot of smaller markets that F9 could take advantage of if WN pulls out of some of the smaller existing FL markets that don't quite fit WN's business model. Enilria did a good job in the other thread specualting which markets could lose service. I certainly see lots of markets on this list that would fit F9's new strategy.

Quoting enilria (Reply 83):
ABE OUT
ACY OUT
ATL IN
AUA MAYBE
AVL OUT
BKG MAYBE
BMI OUT
BOS EXISTING
BUF EXISTING
BWI EXISTING
CAK MAYBE
CLT IN
CMH EXISTING
CRW IN
CUN IN
DAY OUT
DCA IN
DEN EXISTING
DFW IN (I think they have to fly from ATL to Dallas non-stop)
DSM MAYBE
DTW EXISTING
EYW MAYBE
FLL EXISTING
FNT OUT
GPT OUT
GRR MAYBE
HOU EXISTING
HPN IN
HSV MAYBE
IAD EXISTING
ICT IN
IND EXISTING
JAX EXISTING
LAS EXISTING
LAX EXISTING
LEX OUT
LGA EXISTING
MBJ IN
MCI EXISTING
MCO EXISTING
MDT OUT
MDW EXISTING
MEM IN (That's a big one)
MIA MAYBE
MKE EXISTING (Hub gone)
MLI OUT
MSP EXISTING
MSY EXISTING
NAS MAYBE
OMA EXISTING
PBI EXISTING
PHF OUT
PHL EXISTING
PHX EXISTING
PIT EXISTING
PNS MAYBE
PUJ MAYBE
PWM MAYBE
RDU EXISTING
RIC EXISTING
ROC OUT
RSW EXISTING
SAN EXISTING
SAT EXISTING
SEA EXISTING
SFO EXISTING
SJU IN
SRQ MAYBE
STL EXISTING
TPA EXISTING
TYS OUT
UTM OUT

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: dfanucci
Posted 2010-09-27 07:02:59 and read 8295 times.

Not really suprising and quite honestly it's a pretty good move for Southwest. They will get to put tires down in places they have wanted....

I personally think if I'm F9, I'm smiling pretty broad right now. A) There are going to be holes that need to be filled in certain locations. B) The "service offered" by a competitor just shrank - alot. (no way is WN going to keep assigned seating, and buisness class). And C) the most depressing fact is that we are truly going to see what was briefly about to happen with the F9 pilots when WN tried to pick up F9...

-D

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-27 07:05:35 and read 8290 times.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 195):
We still have Sun Country, JetBlue, Spirit and Virgin America.

Sun Country - small, fleet incompatibility, personally I don't think it adds anything to F9

Jet Blue - lots going on with them, getting very cozy with AA, percentage of ownership and codehares with LH, codeshares with EI

Spirit - possibilities, fleet compatablity, and even better now that they're going public

Virgin America - even though they are U.S. owned, still have a lot vested with the Virgin Group, and I think that's the direction they'll go in the future

So, Spirit is about the only remote possibility of those here.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-27 07:13:10 and read 8273 times.

Quoting dfanucci (Reply 196):
(no way is WN going to keep assigned seating, and business class).


And WN says as much in their new integration web site. They flat out say that there won't be checked bag fees, no business class and no assigned seating. They do say they will study the smaller markets, codeshares and int'l. Now might be the time for F9 to add a business class to truly differentiate their onboard customer experience. F9 will never be WN but they can certainly offer a different option (assigned seating, club access, IFE, small/midsize communities, etc)

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-09-27 07:41:12 and read 8231 times.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 195):
Enilria did a good job in the other thread specualting which markets could lose service. I certainly see lots of markets on this list that would fit F9's new strategy.

Thanks!!
I should note that RIC is not existing and should be OUT and they have said there is a legal reason they have to drop DFW.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 195):
The WN/FL deal may not be all bad news for F9 and Republic.

I don't think it is bad news at all. I think it is great for F9. I can only imagine one scenario where it is bad. If WN follows a rational, money-making formula they will shut the MKE hub which is a total duplicate to MDW. I also would be shocked if WN does not have plans for the DCA/LGA slots MKE is using which almost certainly dooms the hub. This is an amazing turnabout. All I've heard is how FL is making money in MKE and F9 is hemorraging. Now the whole situation just flipped 180 degrees overnight.

The only fly in the ointment is if WN hates F9 so much that they keep MKE just to put their foot on F9's throat. I give that only a 10% likelihood, but if they do it clearly shows their motivation.

My long-held belief has once again been proven which is that WN is intent upon destroying the other LCCs, particularly those with lower CASM. What's really interesting is that IMHO they are not intent upon destroying the legacies. That's why I've always said F9 is the target in DEN and not UA even if UA has ended up getting shot to hell in the crossfire. JetBlue will be their next target if they are done with F9 for now.

Secondly, as you can see from my list, WN is going to be dropping tons of FL stuff like ROC/PHF/CAK/DAY/etc. I really don't see WN keeping that stuff. Those are all opportunities for F9 or Allegiant.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2010-09-27 08:09:37 and read 8193 times.

Republic/Frontier has to be smiling in MKE. You know the FL hub there has got to go. WN will not keep the RJ's around that Skywest flies. And the east/west hub is very un-necessary under any WN scenerio that I can see.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: RJNUT
Posted 2010-09-27 08:09:45 and read 8193 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 199):
Secondly, as you can see from my list, WN is going to be dropping tons of FL stuff like ROC/PHF/CAK/DAY/etc. I really don't see WN keeping that stuff. Those are all opportunities for F9 or Allegiant

I agree..i dont think the current Air Tran route map will be recgnoizable within 5 years time! almost like a Reno Air dismantling! I do wonder , though, if they would trade CLE for CAK.. I always heard CLE has been a tough station for WN with costs and competition?!

but, yeah , i generally agree with you assessment of stations closings. ( and there will be plenty),

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: SLCPilot
Posted 2010-09-27 08:21:35 and read 8231 times.

Quoting dfanucci (Reply 196):
And C) the most depressing fact is that we are truly going to see what was briefly about to happen with the F9 pilots when WN tried to pick up F9...



Do you ever talk to pilots!?! Ask ALL the Frontier pilots you know where they'd rather be now.

1) stapled to SouthWest with pay/seat/domicile guarantees and their history of management/labor relations
2) Flying under RAH with their reputation/history

I think the answer will be really clear. Ask a Midwest pilot what he thinks. Oh wait, there are NO more Midwest pilots, just replacements flying planes that say "Midwest" on them. Yes, it is really depressing, but not for the pilots you think.

SLCPilot

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: norcal
Posted 2010-09-27 10:10:27 and read 8083 times.

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 202):

Agreed

There will be no stapling of FL pilots. WN has cone out and said this and it is now illegal to do so. FL pilots will be making more money than they are now. They are in good shape. I'd be terrified to be a F9 pilot right now after watching what RAH did to YX pilots and watching RAH's general treatment of their employees.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-27 11:52:42 and read 7990 times.

Quoting dfanucci (Reply 196):
I personally think if I'm F9, I'm smiling pretty broad right now.
Quoting enilria (Reply 199):
I don't think it is bad news at all.

I agree. I think this is good news for Frontier. I think there may be some shake-out stuff to go through, but it solves a number of problems.

MKE will be an issue but no more so than DEN was and there was always a certain irrationality to Airtran at MKE, a need to prove something. I don't think Southwest needs to prove anything.

I don't think it affects MCI, and may even improve the situation there. And I think there may be some back to the drawing board on some route structure, but generally I'm smiling.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2010-09-27 13:09:02 and read 7889 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 199):
Secondly, as you can see from my list, WN is going to be dropping tons of FL stuff like ROC/PHF/CAK/DAY/etc. I really don't see WN keeping that stuff. Those are all opportunities for F9 or Allegiant.

I respect you Enilria but part of the reason they are merging is to gain the 35 cities that Southwest doesn't fly to now that FL does and expand on them. ROC is a big money maker for FL. Cak is another one and also Newport News.

Quoting mariner (Reply 204):
MKE will be an issue but no more so than DEN was and there was always a certain irrationality to Airtran at MKE, a need to prove something. I don't think Southwest needs to prove anything.

I think at first it started that way, but as time progressed the mindset shifted.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-27 13:27:46 and read 7868 times.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 205):
I think at first it started that way, but as time progressed the mindset shifted.

Well, maybe. I'm not there in the boardroom, I don't know what's being said. It's just how it looks to me. I thought Airtran's MKE-CUN, for example, announced within milli-seconds of Frontier's service, was irrational even to the scheduling of it.

And the TPA situation becomes particularly interesting.  

MKE has been a major focus for Airtran the past few years - it was going to be made to work, come hell or high water - and that pressure comes off. Southwest will have many other issues, including how they handle the new international access - or even just SJU.

I think this takes a huge weight off Airtran's shoulders, and especially at MKE. They no longer need to prove a thing, they don't even need to be profitable. I imagine they will be - but that pressure is off, too.

A couple of other things come out of this. Automatically, upon acquisition, the "battle for MKE market share" is over. Automatically (based on present numbers) Southwest becomes #1 at MKE.

But then equally, I can't think that Southwest will be too happy with MKE fares being among the lowest in the nation and a two-way battle in that regard, is always easier than a three-way battle.

And immediately, at MKE, Frontier becomes the alternate, even the underdog, which has always - always - been the best place for Frontier to be.

I don't know how Southwest will handle the newly acquired DCA slots either, but I would guess they see some other cities having access to DCA may be of greater priority than MKE-DCA.

I accept that this merged Southwest sees growth possibilities at MKE, but I think it's an open ended scenario.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2010-09-27 13:34:40 and read 7840 times.

Mariner you are correct(as you usually are) on most of your points.

Quoting mariner (Reply 206):
Southwest will have many other issues, including how they handle the new international access - or even just SJU.

This is the next LCC Frontier so to speak. Airtran has the systems which Southwest will upgrade to. Plus they gain the knowledge and experience of al lthe international flying and people who have dealt with it for years both at FL and other places. They will be fine. They will learn and adapt. Ill tell you the feeling at FL is very very good. Partly because they wanted this merger and also because it means huge opportunities then anything FL and or SWA could have generated separately.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2010-09-27 13:59:11 and read 7795 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 206):
A couple of other things come out of this. Automatically, upon acquisition, the "battle for MKE market share" is over. Automatically (based on present numbers) Southwest becomes #1 at MKE.

Are you counting the Skywest feed? Because that will surely go away with Southwest, no? And if that goes away, doesn't that affect the profitability of the whole operation?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-27 14:02:18 and read 7798 times.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 207):
They will be fine.

I'm sure they will be fine, I don't think I suggested otherwise.

But there will be battles, just as there is presently a new battle for TPA-SJU, and Southwest will have to pay some attention to the place of, say, SJU in their network. This is new territory for them and they will have new priorities.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 207):
Ill tell you the feeling at FL is very very good. Partly because they wanted this merger and also because it means huge opportunities then anything FL and or SWA could have generated separately.

I imagine the feeling is very good - I hope it would be - and yes, I agree that the whole is more than the sum of the parts, enormously so.

But this is the Frontier thread, and my point is only that I think this is reasonably good news for Frontier, too.

Interestingly, the big gainers on Wall Street today were, obviously Airtran and Southwest. The next biggest gainers were JetBlue and Republic.  

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-27 14:08:35 and read 7787 times.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 208):
Are you counting the Skywest feed? Because that will surely go away with Southwest, no? And if that goes away, doesn't that affect the profitability of the whole operation?

I think I'm counting Skywest. Based on the last figures I saw Airtran had about 27% share at MKE (ex-Skywest), Southwest had about 8.5% and Frontier had about 33%.

There may be newer figures, but I'd guess the balance is about the same and the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel uses those.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 208):
And if that goes away, doesn't that affect the profitability of the whole operation?

Very minorly, perhaps. Isn't the Skywest flying at risk?

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: MostlyAir
Posted 2010-09-27 14:22:12 and read 7749 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 209):
Interestingly, the big gainers on Wall Street today were, obviously Airtran and Southwest. The next biggest gainers were JetBlue and Republic.

Also notice that SkyWest and Delta were the losers in the airline market.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: JBo
Posted 2010-09-27 15:40:10 and read 7702 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 210):
Very minorly, perhaps. Isn't the Skywest flying at risk?

Yes it is, I believe this agreement was formed as a way for SkyWest to keep aircraft flying that were displaced by the termination of its YX contract.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mke717spotter
Posted 2010-09-27 15:50:59 and read 7686 times.

There's a pretty good amount of routes that FL/WN overlap on in Florida and at BWI, will this give them any problems with the DoJ?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2010-09-27 16:07:34 and read 7667 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 209):
But this is the Frontier thread, and my point is only that I think this is reasonably good news for Frontier, too.

This is true. I think its a mixed bag of sorts. I think the potential for F9 in this is pretty big.

Quoting mariner (Reply 209):
Interestingly, the big gainers on Wall Street today were, obviously Airtran and Southwest. The next biggest gainers were JetBlue and Republic.  

Perhaps a portent of things to come? I mean heck today has just made it clear anything is possible. LOL

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-27 16:15:24 and read 7658 times.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 213):
There's a pretty good amount of routes that FL/WN overlap on in Florida and at BWI, will this give them any problems with the DoJ?

That's one of the unknowns - how the DOJ will react. I assume it will mostly go through, I don't see any neon-red flags such as EWR was with Continental/United.

I don't think DEN is much of an issue here, nor MCI. People have been saying for yonks that the situation at MKE was untenable, that something would have to give, and lo - something has.

From my perspective, everything changes now. What was true yesterday is not necessarily true today.

Immediately, some questions come to mind - the obvious one is CAK and CLE and I'd be interested to see how PHF and ORF resolve as well. I'm not sure what this does to the PIE versus TPA debate, except that, as ever, I'm rooting for PIE.

And then there is BKG.

There's a whole bunch of other stuff as well, but it is pointless speculating. I don't have all my ducks in a row about it yet, but my instinctive reaction was to wonder what this does to the relationship between Frontier and a couple of the legacy carriers.

I don't think any of it is bad news.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-27 16:33:09 and read 7647 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 215):
I don't think any of it is bad news.

In a way, things may equalize a bit in that, the purchase was $1.4B, and all of this cash reserve the WN had to wage whatever war it wanted is not so sizable anymore. Yes, they are bigger, but they now have to be a bit more careful with the fights that they pick.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2010-09-28 04:39:58 and read 7400 times.

Maybe now F9 can get back their old IATA code...FL  

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: rampart
Posted 2010-09-28 05:11:13 and read 7380 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 217):
Maybe now F9 can get back their old IATA code...FL

That's funny! I like it. What was Valujet's old code, BTW?

-Rampart

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: RW170
Posted 2010-09-28 05:22:33 and read 7358 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 218):
What was Valujet's old code, BTW?

ValuJet was J7.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2010-09-28 07:02:54 and read 7303 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 215):
Immediately, some questions come to mind - the obvious one is CAK and CLE and I'd be interested to see how PHF and ORF resolve as well. I'm not sure what this does to the PIE versus TPA debate, except that, as ever, I'm rooting for PIE.

The morning news here in Cleveland made mention of the merger... they said Southwest was prepared to move its operations to CAK, though I'm sure they're equally ready to stick around in CLE if all the doomsayers' prognostications about CLE's fate in the CO/UA merger come to pass...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-28 08:51:36 and read 7231 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 215):
That's one of the unknowns - how the DOJ will react.

In looking round for red flags, I've found very few. I guess (?) this will sail through the DOJ.

But there is one small issue I don't know about - MDW.

It's a general theme in several articles that airfares at Southwest/Airtran cities could go up, such as at BOS:

http://www.boston.com/business/artic...rger_means_less_price_competition/

"Merger could lift airfares in Boston

"What Southwest is doing is taking out the low-cost carrier, said airline analyst Michael Friedman. You are eliminating the guy who prices at the bottom."


I'm guessing that the DOJ does not involve itself in this, that it is just market hurly-burly because there's a lot of competition, but then there's MDW:

http://www.southtownstar.com/business/2750400,092810swa.article

"Southwest, already the dominant carrier at Midway, will knock out AirTran as a competitor, but isn't likely to alter its business model of cheap fares, Joe Schwieterman said.

Analysts also said travelers might not see as many deep-discount sales that now are offered by Southwest and AirTran because there will be less competition."


At MDW, Southwest is already the dominant carrier, by a long shot, and once the merger goes through there be only be a minor Delta presence and a few blips by Frontier and a couple of others.

So there will be very little restraint on Southwest if it wants to raise fares which might cause the DOJ to raise an eyebrow?

Or does ORD being so close alleviate that concern?

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2010-09-28 09:48:22 and read 7172 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 18):
As much as I would like to see that it would be a miracle since LIO only recently reopened (2006) their airport after repairing it from hurricane damage and is still struggling getting up to int'l standards. The runway is only 5900' while DEN-LIO is 2,452nm. Maybe as an addon from SJO.

This route would certainly never happen given the lack of capability at LIO in order to attend jet mainline operations.
Even after the earthquake in 1991, the military planes experienced restrictions when landing at LIO.
Furthermore, the driving time between San Jose and Limon is 2,5 hours in average.




.

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
I don't think it will ever happen. I'm not sure that there is the traffic for the Caribbean coast and I don't know if there is sufficient tourist infrastructure.

Right said !

Regards.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-09-28 09:56:22 and read 7155 times.

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 201):
I agree..i dont think the current Air Tran route map will be recgnoizable within 5 years time! almost like a Reno Air dismantling! I do wonder , though, if they would trade CLE for CAK.. I always heard CLE has been a tough station for WN with costs and competition?!

Cleveland, and Ohio in general, have been bludgeoned by airline consolidations. I don't have enough fingers to count all the Ohio hubs and focus cities that have closed or are endangered going all the way back to US@DAY, HP@CMH, SkyBus, Jet America, Airborne in Wilmington, CVG, CLE, and now CAK. Did I miss any? DL kinda opened and closed a CMH focus city more than once as well.
Anyway, CLE/CAK are in a really amazing situation. The writing is on the wall in CLE in big red print regarding CO's hub closure. Now FL, which is the major force in keeping CAK a thorn in CLE's side, is merging with CLE's dominant LCC. If CLE lets WN scurry out the door to CAK it will be doomsday to lose the hub and WN. Imagine the impact of that. CLE has to keep WN no matter what. The fees are an issue and will be more of an issue as CO/UA stop paying as many landing fees.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 205):
I respect you Enilria but part of the reason they are merging is to gain the 35 cities that Southwest doesn't fly to now that FL does and expand on them. ROC is a big money maker for FL. Cak is another one and also Newport News.

They say themselves at the top of their FAQ. The main reasons are ATL and slots. No secrets there. The rest is whispered lip service. They say themselves that AirTran's unique strategies will be "evaluated" and continued in the "short-term" while they decide whether to integrate them. Since I see all of AirTran's product uniqueness being jettisoned along with the executive leadership, do you really see them using their valuable and newly gained LGA slots to fly to CAK? I'm not sure where they can be legally moved to, but I bet CAK is not at the top of the list.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 213):
There's a pretty good amount of routes that FL/WN overlap on in Florida and at BWI, will this give them any problems with the DoJ?

You think WN is willing to give up gates in BWI? They would welcome any competitor to try. Nobody will even ask. I don't know what DOJ/DOT would even want from them. UA/CO had more overlap.

Quoting mariner (Reply 221):

"Merger could lift airfares in Boston

While B6 will keep fares in BOS low, a bigger point is that WN CASM is higher than FL CASM...and not by a little. That means higher fares. All those FL crews and workers will make more money on the WN pay scale. Somebody has to pay for that. You know who? Customers. That's part of why WN bought FL. WN is threatened by anybody with lower CASM than theirs. They ignore those with higher CASM and let the damage be self-inflicted.

Regardless, after another day of thought I still think this is really good for F9. FL/WN is gonna abandon tons of stuff if F9 is smart enough to grab the right apples as they fall from the tree.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: sunking737
Posted 2010-09-28 10:00:58 and read 7147 times.

I believe now is the time for Frontier to upgrade there F/C product. I have never flown F9, so I am not sure what its like. With WN dropping FL F/C or Business First or what ever they call it, this leaves a great opportunity to reach out to new customers.

After all every airline wants the money from business travelers. Anyone else want to chime in.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-28 10:04:24 and read 7144 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 223):
Regardless, after another day of thought I still think this is really good for F9. FL/WN is gonna abandon tons of stuff if F9 is smart enough to grab the right apples as they fall from the tree.

And here, for once, you and I are in agreement.

I don't think it will all be beer and skittles, I think there will be some big challenges here for Frontier, but yes, I think there will be good opportunities.

I suspect what I see as opportunities will be different from your own, of course.  

I am intrigued that Southwest is dropping 1 x MKE-MCO frequency at the start of Spring Break but adding 1 x MDW-MCO at the same time.

And given Wall Street's positive reaction to RJET - yesterday and so far today when most airlines are down - I'd say that - so far - it's all already been positive for Frontier.

I am sure there will be some downside, of course.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FRNT787
Posted 2010-09-28 10:57:01 and read 7097 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 223):
Regardless, after another day of thought I still think this is really good for F9. FL/WN is gonna abandon tons of stuff if F9 is smart enough to grab the right apples as they fall from the tree.

I agree with you on this. This could create some very interesting opportunities for F9. I think the Omaha expansion is evidence they are willing to go where they see the money. With WN being so large at MDW, I would assume this has to lessen the load at MKE, and any easing of that situation is a good thing.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: MCI10
Posted 2010-09-28 11:31:03 and read 7080 times.

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 224):

Dont think you will see a first class but maybe they could change the Stretch Seating up a little bit. I say in Stretch take out the middle chair so it gives the business man some more room and they would be willing to pay extra for those seats. But that my opinion.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-09-28 11:42:20 and read 7075 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 225):
I am intrigued that Southwest is dropping 1 x MKE-MCO frequency at the start of Spring Break but adding 1 x MDW-MCO at the same time.

I posted almost that exact thing in one of the myriad of threads going on. It is odd. They must be sucking.

Quoting mariner (Reply 225):
I am sure there will be some downside, of course.

The only downside is if WN decides to stay and fight in MKE, but that would be unexpected. OTOH, it is possible. If they do stay there (the hub) it is solely to hurt F9 and for no other reason as it makes no network sense.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-28 12:18:57 and read 7038 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 228):
The only downside is if WN decides to stay and fight in MKE, but that would be unexpected. OTOH, it is possible. If they do stay there (the hub) it is solely to hurt F9 and for no other reason as it makes no network sense.

I have no doubt they will stay at MKE, and I assume they may grow at MKE.

I don't see this as negative, because the spoiler, the bottom pricing airline, will have been removed and I find it difficult to thank that Southwest regards MKE in the same way that they regard DEN - critical to their network - because of the proximity of MDW.

For Airtran, of course, MKE was essential to their network, they had planted their flag their and did not intend to take it down. Where else were they going to go? Southwest has other choices and probably other priorities.

Nor do I think that the Spring schedule - the MCO cut - reflects any specific intent at MKE, but there is another odd one. I am missing this in the .pdf file, but according to the Southwest website MKE-MCI reduces from 3 x daily to 2 x daily in the Southwest schedule at the end of April.

I accept that it may be a glitch.

mariner

[Edited 2010-09-28 12:24:18]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-09-28 12:34:16 and read 7026 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 229):
I have no doubt they will stay at MKE, and I assume they may grow at MKE.

Stay yes, hub I don't know. A hub there is superfluous and as I said surely they will move the NE slots elsewhere which will destroy the hub anyway.

Quoting mariner (Reply 229):
did not intend to take it down. Where else were they going to go? Southwest has other choices and probably other priorities.

Exactly   

Quoting mariner (Reply 229):
Nor do I think that the Spring schedule - the MCO cut - reflects any specific intent at MKE, but there is another odd one.

It reflects that they can't make money MKE-MCO in March (but apparently can in January) which is insane. Either that or they are dumb.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-28 20:50:02 and read 6766 times.

The Midwest cookie - voted one of America's favorites by Bob Appétit readers:

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/food/...-in-america-2392861/#photoViewer=4

 

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-28 20:59:31 and read 6764 times.

Away from the WN/FL merger news, it seems as if F9 is looking to get either the E170 or E190 certified for ASE, as per Flight Global. This doesn't say when this process will be completed, but they say next April is when F9 wants to take the Qs currently used at ASE out of service. The E190 is more favorable of the two for the steep climb, but its wingspan and weight are both a bit over the limit of what the airport accepts per local regulations. With the planned runway extension, the city is may be looking at increasing the wingspan and weight limits so that the E190 can be certified to serve the airport.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...90-may-be-certified-for-aspen.html

[Edited 2010-09-28 21:03:25]

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FL787
Posted 2010-09-28 21:03:30 and read 6751 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 231):
The Midwest cookie

The only constant left in MKE...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2010-09-28 21:04:58 and read 6743 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 231):
The Midwest cookie - voted one of America's favorites by Bob Appétit readers:

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/food/...-in-america-2392861/#photoViewer=4

A nice list, but they left out the best cookies of all: (1) the ones offered to you by the passenger sitting next to you when they don't want theirs; (2) the ones you get when the flight attendant makes a second pass with the extra cookies. I eagerly await the flight when one (or both) of these events happens again...

 

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-28 21:13:33 and read 6740 times.

While we're at it, Huff Post has a compilation of the best 23 airline commercials ever.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._718250.html?ref=fb&src=sp#s141363

I don't know who decided the list - and why 23? - but they looked through a lot of stuff.

There's something for everyone, from the Southwest hotpants ad through United, Continental and Eastern/Disney and Northwest Orient.

And Frontier.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: point2point
Posted 2010-09-28 21:17:50 and read 6744 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 235):
While we're at it, Huff Post has a compilation of the best 23 airline commercials ever.

Wow, #1 is WN, #2 is F9, and #3 is UA, the big 3 at DEN.

I guess you gotta have good commercials for such a competitive market....

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2010-09-28 21:52:17 and read 6695 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 235):
And Frontier.

Interesting that they chose that particular commercial...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: alphascan
Posted 2010-09-28 23:24:01 and read 6643 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 235):
While we're at it, Huff Post has a compilation of the best 23 airline commercials ever.

As usual, the Huffington Post can't get anything right (pun intended). Here is a link to the greatest airline commercial ever produced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bTO2iJJjbU&feature=related

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: pilotfox
Posted 2010-09-29 00:16:41 and read 6631 times.

They have started taking down the Midwest Signage in MKE tonight. The ticket counter is the first to be changed.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: KGRB
Posted 2010-09-29 01:37:46 and read 6619 times.

Quoting pilotfox (Reply 239):
They have started taking down the Midwest Signage in MKE tonight. The ticket counter is the first to be changed.

Do you know what the plan is for signage on the YX hangar? I see the old 'Midwest Express Airlines' sign *finally* came down, but it's been blank for a few weeks (although the YX MD-80 is still up there oddly). Am I correct to assume that a 'Frontier' sign will go up in its place?

And on a related note, why was the old Midwest Express sign never replaced during the 2004 rebranding? It was easily their most visible piece of signage probably anywhere in the company. They could've at least painted over the 'Express' part...

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-09-29 10:45:19 and read 6439 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 232):
Away from the WN/FL merger news, it seems as if F9 is looking to get either the E170 or E190 certified for ASE, as per Flight Global.

Wasn't that exact story printed a year ago and nothing happened?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-29 11:09:21 and read 6435 times.

Cranky Flier has a good piece about the Southwest/Airtran merger today:

http://crankyflier.com/2010/09/29/fr...in-from-the-southwestairtran-deal/

Cranky: "I’ve seen countless articles/posts/interviews talking about how the Southwest/AirTran merger is going to be terrible for every other airline out there. The newly-created behemoth will dominate and crush everyone around. Seriously? Don’t believe conventional wisdom here. This merger is actually good news for most airlines. And one of the biggest winners might be Frontier."

And I had not thought about DFW:

"Southwest will not serve DFW when the merger is complete, so the current flight from Milwaukee will go away. Maybe it will eventually be served from Dallas/Love, but that won’t be legal until 2014."

Of the countless articles he read that take a negative view of it, one of them might be the poisonous piece in the Denver Post - "Frontier squeezed at both its hubs."

The overall attitude of the Denver Post to Frontier has always been something of a mystery to me. I miss Chris Walsh at the Rocky Mountain News.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: planemaker
Posted 2010-09-29 12:35:01 and read 6343 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 242):
Of the countless articles he read that take a negative view of it, one of them might be the poisonous piece in the Denver Post - "Frontier squeezed at both its hubs."

"Poisonous piece" is a little bit dramatic considering that the article is populated by statements not made by the reporter...

Quote:
"Southwest has been beating Frontier up in Denver like there is no tomorrow, and AirTran is beating up Frontier in Milwaukee," said Tom Parsons, founder and chief executive of Bestfares.com. "I don't know what Frontier is going to do."
Quote:
Southwest "will surpass Frontier in Denver because the larger network will enable more city pairs to be sold to Denver customers," said Bill Swelbar, research engineer for the International Center for Air Transportation at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Quote:
The biggest impact of the Southwest-AirTran deal for Denver travelers will be potential nonstops to Atlanta; Newark, N.J.; and Washington National, Parsons said.

The bottom line for Denver travelers is that "they will be able to fly from one coast to another and hopscotch in between on the same airline and still have low airfares," Parsons said.
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_16190820

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-29 12:44:10 and read 6330 times.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 243):
"Poisonous piece" is a little bit dramatic considering that the article is populated by statements not made by the reporter...

So I'm a drama queen. LOL.

If - as writer - I take a position and then go looking for analysts in support of that position, they are not hard to find.

The reporter has told me that she couldn't find anyone to take a contrary view to her own. Which I find odd, given:

http://www.thedeal.com/sense/2010/09...:_too_much_luv_for_discounters.php

"Analysts say that Southwest's post-merger focus on Atlanta and east coast markets could cause it to tap the brakes in Denver, and with Southwest already running a major operation at Chicago's Midway Airport, Milwaukee could be reworked or even drawn down post-merger."

Obviously, there are some analysts out there, apart form Cranky Flier, who take the contrary view to Ms. Schrader.

But there is history here.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: knope2001
Posted 2010-09-29 12:48:14 and read 6321 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 242):
Of the countless articles he read that take a negative view of it, one of them might be the poisonous piece in the Denver Post - "Frontier squeezed at both its hubs."

What's just a head-shaker about these sorts of worries is that the place where Frontier is making money is in fact Denver where Southwest as "put the squeeze" on Frontier for a good while now.

Now I'm hopeful that we hear clearly that the MKE-side also made money in Q3, and that the system is overall solidly in the black (at least minus unusual integration costs). We'll see, and I'm not trying to stir debate on that particualr issue here. But I think even the most pessimistic about Frontier's chances can agree that what profits there have been came from Denver's success overshadowing Milwaukee's struggle. Denver isn't the bloodbath Milwaukee has been.

I'm not claiming that everything is suddenly wonderful in all ways, but this should reduce the heat in Milwaukee, not make it worse.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: loggat
Posted 2010-09-29 12:56:40 and read 6307 times.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 234):
A nice list, but they left out the best cookies of all: (1) the ones offered to you by the passenger sitting next to you when they don't want theirs; (2) the ones you get when the flight attendant makes a second pass with the extra cookies. I eagerly await the flight when one (or both) of these events happens again...

Sorry to tell you that management has now decided that for each cookie flight, only enough cookies will be boarded per flight for 70% of the passengers to have 1 cookie. I personally think that's taking the "1 olive from the salad" idea a little too far.

If they'd asked me (an employee) I would've suggested to board enough cookies for 100% of the passengers to have 1 cookie, and for those who didn't want one, make another pass to the "stretch" seat passengers and kids to give them the extras.

This is what happens when regional number crunchers try to do customer service.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-29 13:00:37 and read 6299 times.

Quoting loggat (Reply 246):
This is what happens when regional number crunchers try to do customer service.

Yet I believe the figures show that the take-up rate of the cookies is really quite low, on all "non-Midwest" flights.

Nor do I see how all the number crunchers, who include Mr. Arthur, can be considered "regional." I'm not aware that he has ever worked for a regional.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-29 13:02:22 and read 6300 times.

I was on an E170 yesterday which had its seat converted to Frontier's green leather. I was surprised since I thought the interior conversions were low on priority. Anyone know the conversion timeline?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2010-09-29 13:04:27 and read 6296 times.

Quoting loggat (Reply 246):
Sorry to tell you that management has now decided that for each cookie flight, only enough cookies will be boarded per flight for 70% of the passengers to have 1 cookie. I personally think that's taking the "1 olive from the salad" idea a little too far.

That was only true for about half a day. It was changed to 1 cookie per seat. 162 cookies are boarded on an A320, 136 cookies are boarded on an A319, for example, even if the load factor is less than 100%.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: beryllium
Posted 2010-09-29 13:09:40 and read 6291 times.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 245):
I'm not claiming that everything is suddenly wonderful in all ways, but this should reduce the heat in Milwaukee, not make it worse.

That will depend on what WN plans are in regards to MKE and F9.
Frontier's hopes are that due to MKE proximity to MDW, WN will scale back current FL's MKE operation, and F9 will have MKE pretty much all for themselves.
This scenario is possible, and there is definitely some logic in this way of thinking, but it is just as possible that WN, because of the competitive reasons, might simply decide to disallow their major competitor in DEN flourish in MKE. Competitive considerations for WN here might outweigh operational ones, and WN might just go for a kill to get F9 out of the way (the long-terms benefits of this move for WN might be greater than the short-term operational benefits associated with de-hubbing of FL's MKE operation, and concentrating everything in MDW).

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-29 13:18:07 and read 6269 times.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 250):
Frontier's hopes are that due to MKE proximity to MDW, WN will scale back current FL's MKE operation, and F9 will have MKE pretty much all for themselves.

I think the folk at Frontier would be fools if they are hoping for that.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: beryllium
Posted 2010-09-29 13:51:17 and read 6228 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 251):
I think the folk at Frontier would be fools if they are hoping for that.

F9 is not hoping that WN will scale back FL's MKE operation?
They already know that the bloodbath in MKE will continue until someone falls?

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2010-09-29 14:10:39 and read 6209 times.

Quoting loggat (Reply 246):
If they'd asked me (an employee) I would've suggested to board enough cookies for 100% of the passengers to have 1 cookie, and for those who didn't want one, make another pass to the "stretch" seat passengers and kids to give them the extras.

This is what happens when regional number crunchers try to do customer service.

As a one-time big YX cookie eater I would always ask for a bag of the leftover cookies to take into the office at my destination city. Always got about two dozen or so.

This shows there are lots of tossed cookies--so to speak. From my observations, the number crunchers (regional or otherwise) are pretty smart...well...cookies.  

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-29 14:14:14 and read 6211 times.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 252):
F9 is not hoping that WN will scale back FL's MKE operation?

They're not assuming that it will. Southwest CEO Kelly has made that very clear.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 252):
They already know that the bloodbath in MKE will continue until someone falls?

One of the three has fallen.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: rampart
Posted 2010-09-29 14:18:09 and read 6198 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 251):
I think the folk at Frontier would be fools if they are hoping for that.

mariner

   WN inherits a major FL presence in MKE. They don't need the hub* (always the asterisk), but why would they minimize the major presence if FL has been successful, and WN has been successful? MKE is going to be one of those hotbeds of competition for a while, much to the benefit of happy customers.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: FL787
Posted 2010-09-29 14:23:57 and read 6207 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 255):
but why would they minimize the major presence if FL has been successful

The LGA and DCA slots are valuable and needed elsewhere in a combined WN/FL. That and the end of the OO feed would make FL's hub not sustainable. WN might have a schedule like this in the future from MKE:

4x ATL
3x BWI
3x LAS
2-3x MCO
2x PHX
2x DEN
2x MCI
2x STL
1-2x TPA
1-2x RSW
1x FLL

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: beryllium
Posted 2010-09-29 14:32:24 and read 6187 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 254):
They're not assuming that it will. Southwest CEO Kelly has made that very clear.

Nonetheless, the major portion of the Cranky Flyer article that you have posted is dedicated to some "potential gains in MKE".
If F9 is not assuming that WN will scale back, what are those gains then?   

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: mariner
Posted 2010-09-29 14:39:30 and read 6173 times.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 257):
Nonetheless, the major portion of the Cranky Flyer article that you have posted is dedicated to some "potential gains in MKE".
If F9 is not assuming that WN will scale back, what are those gains then?

You'll have to ask Cranky what he thinks might happen, I can't speak for him.

I only know what has happened, and - so far - the past two days Southwest's actions have been moderately positive for Frontier, both at MKE and (very slightly) at MCI.

mariner

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2010-09-29 16:49:37 and read 6072 times.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 250):
Frontier's hopes are that due to MKE proximity to MDW, WN will scale back current FL's MKE operation, and F9 will have MKE pretty much all for themselves.

I doubt anyone, even the most naive of people, truly believes that will be the case.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 252):
F9 is not hoping that WN will scale back FL's MKE operation?

Of course they're hoping WN will scale back. That doesn't mean they're planning based on that hope.

Quoting rampart (Reply 255):
WN inherits a major FL presence in MKE. They don't need the hub* (always the asterisk), but why would they minimize the major presence if FL has been successful, and WN has been successful? MKE is going to be one of those hotbeds of competition for a while, much to the benefit of happy customers.

Indeed. What is most likely to change is the FOCUS of the combined airline at MKE.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 257):
Nonetheless, the major portion of the Cranky Flyer article that you have posted is dedicated to some "potential gains in MKE".

And? There are potential gains in MKE.

Quoting beryllium (Reply 257):
If F9 is not assuming that WN will scale back, what are those gains then?

WN shifts flights around and cuts some of the smaller markets... The dropping of the deal between AirTran and SkyWest opens some markets up for either increases in size of aircraft by F9... Heck, WN may just keep all the markets but shift frequencies and stop trying to dominate the market by having the lowest fare... WN, contrary to popular belief, does not always have the lowest fare, nor do they claim to... but they have a rationalized fare structure that means you're never going to get gouged because you happen to have to make your plans at the last minute. This means that other carriers CAN, in fact, undersell and/or match Southwest's fares (for at least some of the seats, in any case) and both they and Southwest can fly with enough seats full to, *gasp*, make money.

Topic: RE: New Frontier/Republic #13
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2010-09-29 17:45:17 and read 6016 times.

We now have a New Frontier/Republic #14. You are invited to mosey on over to keep on talking. In fact, Lobo said he'd bite you if you didn't...  


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