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Topic: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2010-09-27 19:19:48 and read 5850 times.

The DOT has approved DL's request to start service March 1st instead of January 29th.

Quote:
Delta flights between Detroit and Haneda and Los Angeles and Haneda now will start on March 1, rather than Jan. 29, as originally required by the DOT.

Delta requested the extension to move the inaugural service into a higher demand period.

In the request filed with the DOT earlier this month, Delta said the 30-day extension would have “no impact on the long-term benefits of its services” and would allow the new capacity to be introduced into the U.S.-Tokyo market “when there is public demand to support the flights.”

The original late January start date is the industry’s lowest demand period of the year for mainland U.S.-Tokyo passengers, while March typically is much stronger.

DL also has rebooked all the customers on the HND flights to NRT.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2010-09-27 19:24:52 and read 5843 times.

DOT also stated

"We note that Hawaiian Airlines, Inc. filed an answer stating that it does not oppose Delta's request but is prepared to operate a second Honolulu-Haneda service should any protracted delays arise with Delta's startup."

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-09-27 20:01:38 and read 5731 times.

This isn't right IMO, but at least now if AA wants to delay the startup, it can apply as well. One question: If DL is delaying the startup until the high demand period, what's to prevent this from happening again next year, and the year after? If demand is slow this winter, then it should stand that it will be slow every winter. Is DL going to request a winter suspension every year now or do will this not be necessary once the route is "established"?

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: elmothehobo
Posted 2010-09-27 20:04:55 and read 5699 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
This isn't right IMO, but at least now if AA wants to delay the startup

American is launching JFK-HND the same day Delta is launch DTW/LAX-HND.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: flflyguy
Posted 2010-09-27 20:09:18 and read 5670 times.

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 3):
American is launching JFK-HND the same day Delta is launch DTW/LAX-HND.

According to Sabre, AA is starting JFK-HND on 20Jan. As far as I know we have not asked for an extension and the flight is bookable.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: peanuts
Posted 2010-09-27 20:18:31 and read 5625 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
This isn't right IMO

Why not? They asked, they received. End of story.
You can do all the    you want, nobody will listen. Including UA.

Business is full of trade offs, one way deals and compromises, you know that.

Are you gonna cry foul when the 744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-09-27 20:23:33 and read 5600 times.

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 3):
American is launching JFK-HND the same day Delta is launch DTW/LAX-HND.

AA is still starting it in January.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Why not? They asked, they received. End of story.
You can do all the you want, nobody will listen. Including UA.

Business is full of trade offs, one way deals and compromises, you know that.

Are you gonna cry foul when the 744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

I'm not doing any    . There was a thread on this subject not too long ago where this issue was debated and I expressed my opinion there as to why I didn't think it was right. The 744 issue is different, because that's far down the line. This is an immediate request for an exception. Anyway, I know that what's done is done and that nobody will listed but I can still say that I don't think it's the right decision by the DOT.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2010-09-27 20:32:52 and read 5552 times.

Classic example of "ask and you shall receive." I don't get why so many fanboys of other airlines get mad at Delta for doing stuff like this... why don't they get mad at their airline for not strategically delaying a flight like Delta is doing?

Delta played the game well. They got the routes they wanted (with the DOT's approval) and are getting to start it later like they wanted (with the DOT's approval.) What is wrong with that? If anything, it should be the DOT that should be getting flack, not Delta. Just my 2 cents  

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2010-09-27 20:36:43 and read 5533 times.

Hawaiian's response is not surprising. They're keeping the welcome mat out.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
This isn't right IMO

I don't think it is either, but this is the government we're talking about after all. I expected it would go through.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
One question: If DL is delaying the startup until the high demand period, what's to prevent this from happening again next year, and the year after? If demand is slow this winter, then it should stand that it will be slow every winter. Is DL going to request a winter suspension every year now or do will this not be necessary once the route is "established"?

I've been wondering that same thing. What's going to happen next time winter inevitably rolls around? If HND is a gold mine, I'd start digging.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Are you gonna cry foul when the 744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

I think some expect an downgauge sooner rather than later.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: CODC10
Posted 2010-09-27 21:02:47 and read 5467 times.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

I don't think it will take retirement to bring A330s to HND, at least on the LAX flight, once competition begins in earnest.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2010-09-27 21:23:41 and read 5395 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 8):
I don't think it is either, but this is the government we're talking about after all. I expected it would go through.

What's so surprising? This isn't the first or the last time you will see an airline ask for an extension on a route. I was quite surprised by the amount of comments the other thread drew. Kind of like a "nothing to see here" type deal if you ask me.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-09-27 21:31:24 and read 5372 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
What's so surprising? This isn't the first or the last time you will see an airline ask for an extension on a route. I was quite surprised by the amount of comments the other thread drew. Kind of like a "nothing to see here" type deal if you ask me.

Because I think that this isn't JUST another case of an airline asking for an extension. This was a very competitive application process. DL was the only airline to ask for all 4 available applications and in the end, wound up getting 2 routes at the expense of other airlines, some of which got none at all. They had the balls to ask for all 4 routes and now, after some other airlines got nothing partially because of them, they are asking for an extension. But anyway, this was debated in a previous thread so let's not start another argument here. As DeltaMD90 said, they played "the game" well, which I agree that they did.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: mayor
Posted 2010-09-27 22:00:53 and read 5303 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
They had the balls to ask for all 4 routes and now, after some other airlines got nothing partially because of them, they are asking for an extension

And some of the other airlines DIDN'T have the balls to do that. Not only that, it wasn't DL's fault that those other airlines didn't get the routes......the DOT made the decision, not DL. BTW, maybe UA didn't have the balls because they thought they had the application in the bag........ya think?

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-09-27 22:12:43 and read 5279 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
DL was the only airline to ask for all 4 available applications

So?

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
and in the end, wound up getting 2 routes at the expense of other airlines, some of which got none at all.

And those airlines that got nothing at all, namely CO and UA, have a partner that will be offering 2 US-HND flights on which will soon be a part of a joint venture.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
They had the balls to ask for all 4 routes

So? You say that as though what they did was illegal. Every airline that applied for US-HND flights was free to ask for all 4 routes. Just because they did not and DL did, does not mean that what DL did was somehow wrong.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
after some other airlines got nothing partially because of them

No, it's clear that the awards were parcelled out with respect to the strenght of the various alliances in the US-Japan market. Star was given 2 (UA/CO will be able to revenue share on the two NH US-HND routes so those airlines were not, technically, excluded from the market, Skyteam was given 3, and Oneworld (the smallest of the three at the time of the awards) ended up with 3.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
they are asking for an extension.

Which, again, is perfectly legal and the DOT's approval speaks to the fact that what DL did was not "wrong".

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-09-27 22:27:38 and read 5242 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):
Which, again, is perfectly legal and the DOT's approval speaks to the fact that what DL did was not "wrong".

Yes, I realize this. To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal. I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2010-09-27 22:28:01 and read 5242 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
What's so surprising?

Neither of us say anything about surprise. I clearly state that I wasn't.

And as far as your surprise with the comments in the previous thread, just read the original thread about the proposed awards. Many exuberant comments in that thread--some of them yours. There shouldn't be surprise that, when the tables turned, comments came with it.

Quoting mayor (Reply 12):
And some of the other airlines DIDN'T have the balls to do that. Not only that, it wasn't DL's fault that those other airlines didn't get the routes......the DOT made the decision, not DL. BTW, maybe UA didn't have the balls because they thought they had the application in the bag........ya think?

I didn't take balls to do all this. It took conceit and no soul.

You know, since I'm from farm country, that's like saying I shouldn't dislike Monsanto because it was the government that helped them create a monopoly that I consider dangerous for the world. Sorry, but you start at the source.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: laca773
Posted 2010-09-27 22:38:23 and read 5214 times.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):

Are you gonna cry foul when the 744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

Talking about the LAX/DTW-HND, I just don't see this route being flown with 744s, for very long, if at all. It seems like way too much capacity. I see this route going A332 or 77Es while LAX-NRT I can see going A332/77E/77L since this is a large transit point for DL.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-09-27 22:54:23 and read 5178 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):
Skyteam was given 3,

2
LAX-HND and DTW-HND

HA was given HNL-HND and AA got JFK-HND

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):

Yes, I realize this. To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal. I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.

You know, this is funny to me, Everyone on here pisses and moans about this, yet no airline, UA, CO, AA, US, HA, WN, FL, NK, AS, VX, F9 etc. wanted to step up to the plate and take over for Delta. Had an airline came out and said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can" you can pretty much bet the DOT would have told Delta start it in Jan or give up the slots. No airline did so no one needs to cry about it. The DOT (AFAIK) has never taken right/slots away from an airline when anet wanted them too.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 15):
. It took conceit and no soul.

because its a company not a person.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 16):

Talking about the LAX/DTW-HND, I just don't see this route being flown with 744s, for very long, if at all. It seems like way too much capacity. I see this route going A332 or 77Es while LAX-NRT I can see going A332/77E/77L since this is a large transit point for DL.

everyone sees that........except Delta.  

I just don't understand, Why is it Delta is going to do nothing but cut/fail yet no one seems to say the same about AA, NH, JL and HA? (I know its called bias, and it really gets old.....quickly)

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2010-09-27 23:04:01 and read 5165 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
Had an airline came out and said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can" you can pretty much bet the DOT would have told Delta start it in Jan or give up the slots. No airline did so no one needs to cry about it.

HA did. Guess the DOT didn't follow your line of thinking.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
because its a company not a person.

So a company is not made up of people and doesn't take a personality? News to me . . .

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2010-09-27 23:12:12 and read 5150 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 15):
And as far as your surprise with the comments in the previous thread, just read the original thread about the proposed awards. Many exuberant comments in that thread--some of them yours. There shouldn't be surprise that, when the tables turned, comments came with it.

Can't win 'em all I guess. Seems like the same sob story is all i'm saying. Same as the other thread.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
Had an airline came out and said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can" you can pretty much bet the DOT would have told Delta start it in Jan or give up the slots. No airline did so no one needs to cry about it.

They won't and they know this. As much as airlines fight about things, they seem to have an understanding where there needs to be one. You balk at DL now, be certain the 'norm will change in the future and the ability to extend start-ups will most certainly change.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: CV880
Posted 2010-09-27 23:39:03 and read 5101 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):
Yes, I realize this. To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal. I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.

Maybe DL can use that 30day period to accelerate the planned cabin upgrades of those "idle" 744's...  

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-09-27 23:59:52 and read 5053 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 18):

HA did. Guess the DOT didn't follow your line of thinking.

No HA did not.
"We note that Hawaiian Airlines, Inc. filed an answer stating that it does not oppose Delta's request but is prepared to operate a second Honolulu-Haneda service should any protracted delays arise with Delta's startup." (thanks LAXint) Which means if Delta keeps pushing it off that HA will be happy to step in.

So again NO airline wanted to step up to the plate and at least make Delta start these routes in Jan.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 18):

So a company is not made up of people and doesn't take a personality? News to me . . .

I didn't say that, but a company doing what is best for its shareholders is its personality, not to make you, or the rest of the biased party on anet happy.  

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-09-28 00:05:09 and read 5047 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):

They won't and they know this. As much as airlines fight about things, they seem to have an understanding where there needs to be one. You balk at DL now, be certain the 'norm will change in the future and the ability to extend start-ups will most certainly change.

eh i kinda disagree.

AA and IIRC NK asked the DOT to put DL's JFK-BOG rights up for bid when DL wanted to shift it to ATL-BOG #2. It does happen, it just doesn't happen a lot because 9 times out of 10 the airlines don't really want the rights. Also in the case of HND i believe most airlines think HND is going to open up even more, even so much so that Anderson said he thinks Delta should be able to move its NRT hub to HND.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: The777Man
Posted 2010-09-28 00:51:52 and read 5000 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):
".

Yes, I realize this. To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal. I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.

I agree with this. It's a mater of principle that if you bid for a route,you need to start it. If you don't start it, let somebody else fly the route. This principle should be applied to ALL routes with limited frequences. It doesn't matter what airline it is. Why is that so difficult for the DL supporters to agree to that priciple ?

I think in this case, there were no other carriers (except HA) willing start the routes by the deadline and that's why DOT gave the extension.

I think DL stands to lose lots of money on the LAX-HND route by flying a 744. I talked to a NH rep the other day and their new LAX-HND route has less than 100 people booked each day for the first month and that's with codeshare and much better connectivity than DL both in Japan and on the US side at LAX.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: centrair
Posted 2010-09-28 01:27:45 and read 4958 times.

When the flight actually starts, they could use the refitted 747s. The 747s go in in December and the first ones will be coming out in January and Feb (if I remember right).

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-09-28 04:17:52 and read 5004 times.

No, the 744 fleet isn't going to begin mods until mid-2011.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: Frostbite
Posted 2010-09-28 04:32:06 and read 4972 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 15):
It took conceit and no soul.

That's quite a statement. The "soulful" move would have been to apply for only 3 of the awards? 2? 1? Cry me a river.

[Edited 2010-09-28 04:32:47]

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-09-28 08:43:05 and read 4774 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):
Yes, I realize this.

Well your statements indicate otherwise.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):
To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal.

Again, your statements and implications in this thread seem to suggest otherwise.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):
I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.

And what are those reasons?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 15):
It took conceit and no soul.

   Yes because the other majors have souls.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 18):
HA did. Guess the DOT didn't follow your line of thinking.

No they didn't. Re-read reply 2 to see what HA actually said. No airline said objected to DL's request and no airline offered to start the route in late January in DL's stead, and that includes HA.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 23):
It's a mater of principle that if you bid for a route,you need to start it.

And when did DL suggest that they have no intention of starting LAX/DTW-HND?

Quoting The777Man (Reply 23):
If you don't start it, let somebody else fly the route.

Again, when did DL indicate that they will not be starting LAX/DTW-HND? Also, who is this "somebody else"? Unless I'm mistaken, no other airline stepped up to the plate so who exactly should the route have been given to?

Quoting The777Man (Reply 23):
Why is that so difficult for the DL supporters to agree to that priciple ?

What principle? DL is starting both routes. Yes, they are starting them later than originally planned, but, nevertheless, they are starting them.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 23):
I think in this case, there were no other carriers (except HA) willing start the routes by the deadline and that's why DOT gave the extension.

Well then, why did you suggest above that DL should have let "somebody else" fly the route when no airline stepped up to the plate to do so?

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2010-09-28 09:23:58 and read 4700 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
You know, this is funny to me, Everyone on here pisses and moans about this, yet no airline, UA, CO, AA, US, HA, WN, FL, NK, AS, VX, F9 etc. wanted to step up to the plate and take over for Delta. Had an airline came out and said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can" you can pretty much bet the DOT would have told Delta start it in Jan or give up the slots. No airline did so no one needs to cry about it. The DOT (AFAIK) has never taken right/slots away from an airline when anet wanted them too.

No airline is going to do this because it would likely be extremely unprofitable to start selling seats on a new route such as HND 3 months in advance. And even if they could, would they be taking over for DL only until DL would start the route in March? If so, then that's even worse.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
And what are those reasons?

See Reply #11, for one.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 23):
I think DL stands to lose lots of money on the LAX-HND route by flying a 744. I talked to a NH rep the other day and their new LAX-HND route has less than 100 people booked each day for the first month and that's with codeshare and much better connectivity than DL both in Japan and on the US side at LAX.

If my understanding is correct, the AA bookings aren't looking great either right now. That's why I wonder now that DL was gratned its request, if AA is going to ask for the same thing now. It's seems that only the HNL-HND bookings are looking good (and my only basis for this assumption is that HA said that it's willing and ready to go double daily on this route).

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: CV880
Posted 2010-09-28 09:34:04 and read 4676 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 28):
If my understanding is correct, the AA bookings aren't looking great either right now. That's why I wonder now that DL was gratned its request, if AA is going to ask for the same thing now. It's seems that only the HNL-HND bookings are looking good (and my only basis for this assumption is that HA said that it's willing and ready to go double daily on this route).

The peak season for Hawaii/Japan is winter.....maybe that's why DL will be flying 5x daily Hawaii-Japan during that time period.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: peanuts
Posted 2010-09-28 09:34:21 and read 4679 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 28):
If my understanding is correct, the AA bookings aren't looking great either right now. That's why I wonder now that DL was gratned its request, if AA is going to ask for the same thing now. It's seems that only the HNL-HND bookings are looking good (and my only basis for this assumption is that HA said that it's willing and ready to go double daily on this route).
Quoting The777Man (Reply 23):
I think DL stands to lose lots of money on the LAX-HND route by flying a 744. I talked to a NH rep the other day and their new LAX-HND route has less than 100 people booked each day for the first month and that's with codeshare and much better connectivity than DL both in Japan and on the US side at LAX.

C'mon now guys. A 747 may be a lot of airplane at first but this route is still 6 months out. Since when do business travelers book that far in advance???  

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2010-09-28 09:59:02 and read 4605 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 22):
AA and IIRC NK asked the DOT to put DL's JFK-BOG rights up for bid when DL wanted to shift it to ATL-BOG #2. It does happen, it just doesn't happen a lot because 9 times out of 10 the airlines don't really want the rights. Also in the case of HND i believe most airlines think HND is going to open up even more, even so much so that Anderson said he thinks Delta should be able to move its NRT hub to HND.

Good point.   

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: Pohakuloa
Posted 2010-09-28 17:22:29 and read 3827 times.

Does anyone else think that the EIS for the HND routes on DL and AA will inevitably benefit HA the greatest in the short/medium term? Being the only US flagged carrier into HND for some months before any of the others, getting recognition in advertising and in visual recognition (Pualani and even the aircraft itself) far before DL or AA come into town. This with the capacity cuts by JAL in slowly retiring their 744's replacing all those HNL bound flights with 763's and people still wanting to come to HNL, my thinking is with no other American competition and capacity cuts this is all good news for HA and their HND-HNL routes. The Japanese people are always looking to get to Hawaii in one way or another and they are also very prone to trying the next "in" thing. My thoughts are HA fits this niche and it is the right time and right place for them.

I may not be a DL "fan boy" but I agree if they weren't going to be ready that they should have filed for a delay on EIS for the route. Kudos to them for being if nothing else realistic.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: The777Man
Posted 2010-09-28 19:19:37 and read 3428 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
What principle? DL is starting both routes. Yes, they are starting them later than originally planned, but, nevertheless, they are starting them.

A route should be started by the speciifed date and if not, it should be given to another carrier that's willing to start it. Is that so difficult to agree on ?

In this case, it looks like no one opposed the extension except possibly HA, so the extension would be valid, in this specific case.

The777Man

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2010-09-28 20:11:52 and read 3332 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 21):

No HA did not.
"We note that Hawaiian Airlines, Inc. filed an answer stating that it does not oppose Delta's request but is prepared to operate a second Honolulu-Haneda service should any protracted delays arise with Delta's startup." (thanks LAXint) Which means if Delta keeps pushing it off that HA will be happy to step in.

So again NO airline wanted to step up to the plate and at least make Delta start these routes in Jan.

Yes, they essentially did according to your initial criteria.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
Had an airline came out and said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can" you can pretty much bet the DOT would have told Delta start it in Jan or give up the slots. No airline did so no one needs to cry about it.

Where in your original comment do you say anything about an airline making Delta start anything in January. Your comment said that if any airline said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can", you would have expected a DOT response. That's essentially the exact wording of Hawaiian's statement. They're reminding the DOT that they're prepared to start a second service if Delta can't start on time. You can nit-pick at HA's response, but the basic principle is consistent with your initial belief.

Quoting Frostbite (Reply 26):

That's quite a statement. The "soulful" move would have been to apply for only 3 of the awards? 2? 1? Cry me a river.

I was thinking of saying another word instead, but in the process of typing soul got punched in. It sort-of works, but I should have said "conscienceless" instead. And you're missing the point anyway. It's about the delay request, not the route applications.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):

No they didn't. Re-read reply 2 to see what HA actually said. No airline said objected to DL's request and no airline offered to start the route in late January in DL's stead, and that includes HA.

Neither "Objection" nor "start the route in late January" was part of 1011man's criteria or HA's response. In fact, what we know of the HA response doesn't even talk about a time they would start. You need to re-read carefully.




In the end, those who feel the need to defend Delta at every turn need to be able to let stuff slide. If AA does this, they'll get heat too (and I'll be right there to say it). Let those that don't believe it's right have their say.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-09-28 20:25:46 and read 3315 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 28):

No airline is going to do this because it would likely be extremely unprofitable to start selling seats on a new route such as HND 3 months in advance. And even if they could, would they be taking over for DL only until DL would start the route in March? If so, then that's even worse.

Ok That isn't how it would happen. If HA had objected(or UA or AA etc.) the DOT would have given Delta 2 options, 1) fly the route no later than Jan. 30 or 2) They would have pulled Delta's slots and given to the objecting airline, forever. Had two or more airlines objected the DOT would put the slots up for re-bid. (which would have been unlikely, because it would take the airline(s) asking for more slots than Delta has for a re-bid) Again, UA/CO/AA/HA doesn't really want anymore HND slots, or they would have Objected, at the worst it would have made Delta start on time(which is likely what would have happened, and that is likely why no one went after Delta).

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 34):

Yes, they essentially did according to your initial criteria.

No they didn't. On time is no later than Jan. 30th. Jan.31 or later would be past the deadline to start the route, if they don't start by this time (with out asking for extension) any airline can ask for the slots/rights and the DOT will take them from Delta.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 34):

Where in your original comment do you say anything about an airline making Delta start anything in January. Your comment said that if any airline said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can", you would have expected a DOT response. That's essentially the exact wording of Hawaiian's statement. They're reminding the DOT that they're prepared to start a second service if Delta can't start on time. You can nit-pick at HA's response, but the basic principle is consistent with your initial belief.

read above. The DOT doesn't just say, hey start whenever, you get X number of days (120 IIRC) then they have the right to pull the route.
Again HA is saying if Delta keeps pushing HND off HA is ready to step in and fly HNL-HND #2. Had HA said they want the slots to start HNL-HND on or before Jan. 30 then the DOT wouldn't have given Delta an extension and Delta would have to start the routes on Jan.30 or give up a slot pair to HA. So again, HA did NOT object to the extension, they just stated if Delta were to keep pushing HND off HA would be ready to take over a slot pair. (which means, more than likely Delta wont ask to push it back because if they do HA will ask for the slot pair)

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2010-09-29 02:44:43 and read 3113 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 25):
No, the 744 fleet isn't going to begin mods until mid-2011.

I believe 2 just went in recently, can anyone confirm this?

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-09-29 03:30:12 and read 3065 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 36):

I believe 2 just went in recently, can anyone confirm this?
http://blog.delta.com/2010/09/02/boe...at-beds-touch-screen-tvs-and-more/

you'll see it says starting between S11 and S12. The only mods being done this winter (for the WB fleet) is 777(8) lie-flat/slim line seats, 76C (14) lie-flats, 76T(7) Lie-flat seats and winglet mods on the 763ERs
744 and 76L/U/G mod work will start after the S11 season.

Also going on this winter on the NB fleet
finishing up wifi, may already be done, not sure
319 to 12F/114Y
M90s converts to M9Ks
M9Ks should start getting Fusion IFE this winter
M88s converts to M8Rs.
winglet mods for 757s and the handful of 73Ys
I think thats all thats public.

Also note Delta is working on a web page for fleet updates.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-09-29 04:16:34 and read 3031 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 36):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 25):
No, the 744 fleet isn't going to begin mods until mid-2011.

I believe 2 just went in recently, can anyone confirm this?

No none are in mod. There was a poster in another thread who started this rumor but it is not true. All 744s are in active service (although some spending a fair amount of time on the ground in DTW and MSP due to the slack in the fleet).

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-09-29 04:33:21 and read 3019 times.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 33):
A route should be started by the speciifed date and if not, it should be given to another carrier that's willing to start it. Is that so difficult to agree on ?




But apparently no other carrier wanted to start the two routes early, so what point are you trying to make. Delta made a request for a delay of one month, the DOT said OK, so except for a few CEO wannabees here on A,net, everyone got what they wanted.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-09-29 04:37:37 and read 3018 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 39):

But apparently no other carrier wanted to start the two routes early, so what point are you trying to make. Delta made a request for a delay of one month, the DOT said OK, so except for a few CEO wannabees here on A,net, everyone got what they wanted.

           
holy crap we agree again.  Wow!

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: anonms
Posted 2010-09-29 11:21:39 and read 2874 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 34):
Your comment said that if any airline said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can", you would have expected a DOT response. That's essentially the exact wording of Hawaiian's statement. They're reminding the DOT that they're prepared to start a second service if Delta can't start on time. You can nit-pick at HA's response, but the basic principle is consistent with your initial belief.

Actually, what HA said to the DOT (in casual American English) was, "We don't have any problems with Delta's delaying of their flights, but if you've got a problem, we'd willingly start up a second HND-HNL slot. Just letting you know. kthxbai"

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: mcdu
Posted 2010-09-29 12:50:26 and read 2781 times.

What? Delta unable to start a route on the date prescribed in an award? Well, there is a first time for everything

Seriously, this is a terrible action by the DOT. Hardly fair to those that bid for routes with equipment and hubs that can support year round service. Too bad DL had to use a ruse to get the award, and then ask for leniency.

Perhaps, the DOT will take it away from them if they don't meet the new date?

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-09-29 12:57:27 and read 2769 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 42):
What? Delta unable to start a route on the date prescribed in an award? Well, there is a first time for everything

Seriously, this is a terrible action by the DOT. Hardly fair to those that bid for routes with equipment and hubs that can support year round service. Too bad DL had to use a ruse to get the award, and then ask for leniency.

Perhaps, the DOT will take it away from them if they don't meet the new date?




Seems to me an awful lot of ranting for a one month delay in the start up new service. The sun will still rise in the east an set in the west after this delay.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: airlineexpert
Posted 2010-09-29 14:55:09 and read 2663 times.

What has not been discussed above is that the Jan 29 start date was derived from any economic perspective but from the availability of the new HND runway plus 90 days. There have been more than one route case in recent memory that has involved a start date that were derived from the date the bilateral was signed and not any economically driven date. It is not lost on the DOT that the end of January is one of the lowest periods of the year for int'l travel. Hawaii makes sense to fly in the winter; the mainland US does not. One of the DOT's primary objectives in int'l route cases is to develop economic ties through aviation.

DL's request isn't unreasonable and even if the DOT denied it, DL would have likely started the route anyway. So what the DOT have gained by forcing DL to start a route that wasn't a date ANY airline would have chosen and would only have served to cause the route to startup with significant losses.

If AA finds its bookings equally weak and it it is very likely they are esp. since they will be operating as of right now JFK-NRT while also trying to start up JFK-HND - the same thing DL is faced with at DTW and LAX - then they should be granted the right to push back their startup without problems.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: mayor
Posted 2010-09-29 15:04:16 and read 2654 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 42):
What? Delta unable to start a route on the date prescribed in an award? Well, there is a first time for everything

Seriously, this is a terrible action by the DOT. Hardly fair to those that bid for routes with equipment and hubs that can support year round service. Too bad DL had to use a ruse to get the award, and then ask for leniency.

DL is hardly alone in this.....IIRC, AA and UA have done the same thing.


BTW, how is it unfair? The other carriers had their chance to object and no one did. I'm thinking that UA was sure they had it in the bag, but with their merger coming up and their partners already with service to HND, the DOT was looking at new entrants and new gateways not someone that already had access.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: mcdu
Posted 2010-09-29 15:16:48 and read 2631 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 45):
BTW, how is it unfair? The other carriers had their chance to object and no one did. I'm thinking that UA was sure they had it in the bag, but with their merger coming up and their partners already with service to HND, the DOT was looking at new entrants and new gateways not someone that already had access.

I don't see how DL can poor mouth their Japan access with all of the NRT slots they control. It would have seemed to be better to give those slots to carriers that don't have significant NRT operations such as DL gained with the NWA purchase.

As for having something in the bag, wasn't the former Delta poster WorldTraveler that indicated the JAL deal with DL was a done deal. All that was needed was signing on the dotted line and DL would be transferring -400's from the JAL fleet to the DL fleet and the widget would continue to conquer the world.....but a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. JAL chose AA and Oneworld, DAL bit off more than it could chew with the LAX authority, promised too big a plane for the route and the slot times. This is an ongoing issue with DL and route authority. How many threads were generated with DL people going nuts over LAX-GRU and UA's unused slots. I hope Mr. Smisek is ready to pounce on the ear of the DOT when DL announces that they need another 30 days for __________, excuse of the week. Perhaps a little pressure to force DL's hand to fly the route unprofitably with a -400 and no feed on either end.

Add in a dose of a powerful LCC dropping anchor in ATL and the DL playbook may need some tweaking in the very near future. If DL can't fly HND then let HA have the slot for HNL. They seem to a very interested player that is willing to fly routes they are awarded versus the former.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: mayor
Posted 2010-09-29 15:26:18 and read 2617 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 46):

As for having something in the bag, wasn't the former Delta poster WorldTraveler that indicated the JAL deal with DL was a done deal.

He was not the only one.........there were quite a few on here that thought that way. When the gov't. of Japan is supporting it as well as the CEO of JAL, it would certainly seem like it's in the bag. Maybe AA's threats to JAL had some weight to them.


Having said that, we're talking about HND, here, not the Oneworld alliance. I was pointing out that AA and UA have done the same things as DL and possibly UA thought they had HND in the bag. Instead of answering that and staying on topic, you deflected it to AA/JAL and that tired old subject. Yeah, we know......DL lost that one. They'll WIN plenty of others, don't worry.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2010-09-29 16:30:37 and read 2573 times.

It's not like DL isn't playing by the rules. DOT is the rules. If they got all 4 HND slots and delayed it 15 years and the DOT said ok then it's ok. The only people making a huge fuss are some a.netters, not even the competition is challenging this! Maybe because they know stuff like this happens and they may need to do this in the future sometime.......

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: mcdu
Posted 2010-09-29 18:24:15 and read 2514 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 47):
was pointing out that AA and UA have done the same things as DL and possibly UA thought they had HND in the bag. Instead of answering that and staying on topic, you deflected it to AA/JAL and that tired old subject. Yeah, we know......DL lost that one. They'll WIN plenty of others, don't worry.

Where can you link an article indicating that UA felt it had HND in the bag. I believe most UA folks felt we would get shut out due to the ANA link. I wasn't surprised, just didn't think DL would be considered the odd man out. We can resume this conversation when DL ask for the next extension. In the meantime I suspect the DL planners can get busy on route demand research so they can make better choices in the future on actually flying what is awarded to them. Also they hopefully will have a better read on what size of airplane to pledge on a route and the impact of so called "seasonal" demands.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: The777Man
Posted 2010-09-29 19:53:11 and read 2461 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 39):
Quoting The777Man (Reply 33):
A route should be started by the speciifed date and if not, it should be given to another carrier that's willing to start it. Is that so difficult to agree on ?

But apparently no other carrier wanted to start the two routes early, so what point are you trying to make.

Exactly what I was saying above; forget about this specific case; A route should be started by a specific date and if not, it should be given to another carrier that''s willing to start it.

In this case, there was no other carrier willing to start the route so DOT extended the start up date for DL. Again, is that point so diffucult to agree on ?

The777Man

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2010-10-05 09:20:20 and read 2224 times.

Looks like Delta won't be taking the full 30 day extension. Schedules have been finalized and the DTW-HND flight will begin February 19 and the LAX-HND flight February 21.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2010-10-05 09:33:14 and read 2196 times.

DOT should really set minimum commitment period requirements - if you say you'll offer daily 744 service, there should be minimum 12 months before any service cuts are allowed, and also MUST start on the original date, otherwise it'll go back to the auction block

otherwise ANYONE can lie can claim they'll offer daily 744 from any junk city, then trim it down to 5x weekly 763 within 2 months, all while wasting the valuable slot.

LAX-HND, yes, but i REALLY don't see the meaningful market of DTW-HND on DL other than jeopardizing their own NRT service. The whole notion of HND is convenience to downtown Tokyo, but then end up wasting more time to clear customs and immigration at DTW.

i'd take JFK-NRT over a LGA-DTW-HND any day of the week, thank you.

And to makes things worse, DL has ZERO feed at HND end

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: Transpac787
Posted 2010-10-05 12:45:05 and read 2050 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 52):
but i REALLY don't see the meaningful market of DTW-HND on DL other than jeopardizing their own NRT service

Considering they are geared toward two totally separate markets, I don't see how you can draw any logical ties between the two. Was a nice try, though.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 52):
i'd take JFK-NRT over a LGA-DTW-HND any day of the week, thank you.

And.... you by giving your opinion and adding a dismissive "thank you" at the end, you were hoping it would make your opinion look slightly more valid?? Or what??

Because I (and DL), I'm sure, are not too much phased by your (one) opinion on favoring JFK-NRT over LGA-DTW-HND  

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 52):
And to makes things worse, DL has ZERO feed at HND end

Make what worse??

HND is a huge O&D market. Please humor us and tell us why you think zero feed at HND is a huge deal when HND will be a high-yield O&D market...

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: elmothehobo
Posted 2010-10-05 13:09:54 and read 1991 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 52):
i'd take JFK-NRT over a LGA-DTW-HND any day of the week, thank you.

Quite a few people would take the option of a shorter airport commute to LGA, an hour layover at DTW followed by a short commute into Tokyo from Haneda than a long ride out to JFK followed by a long commute from Narita into Tokyo.

Topic: RE: DOT Approves DL HND Extension
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2010-10-05 13:16:37 and read 1973 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 52):
LAX-HND, yes, but i REALLY don't see the meaningful market of DTW-HND on DL other than jeopardizing their own NRT service.

NRT at DTW was run double daily before DL took over and NW did it just fine, with many of those people ending their journey in NRT, This will easily compliment the service.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 52):
The whole notion of HND is convenience to downtown Tokyo, but then end up wasting more time to clear customs and immigration at DTW.

As opposed to what other airport, this part doesn't make sense, DTW is easy to get through customs and fast as well, and with the HND flight getting in so early in the morning it will be the only one there, no problems.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 52):
And to makes things worse, DL has ZERO feed at HND end

They don't need connecting feed.

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 54):
Quite a few people would take the option of a shorter airport commute to LGA, an hour layover at DTW followed by a short commute into Tokyo from Haneda than a long ride out to JFK followed by a long commute from Narita into Tokyo.

Agreed as NRT is like 1-1.5hrs north of Tokyo,


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