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Topic: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-07-28 08:30:37 and read 26672 times.

It seems that the old thread is closed because the lack of posts within a number of days
( http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...407&s=swiss+aviation+thread+23#131 )
Let's start a new one:

Here a link to a nice video from a SWISS A 333 with the Patroullie Suisse at the Emmen 2010 Airshow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS6VVEUe_CM

[Edited 2010-07-28 08:53:23]

[Edited 2010-07-28 09:01:04]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-07-28 12:54:16 and read 26583 times.

Thanks ZRH for starting the new thread!

SWISS has now already 2 A340's with the new Business Class, when will the next one be upgraded?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-07-28 13:55:09 and read 26526 times.

I also have a question to the A 340. Why does SWISS use the 340 to BOS instead of the 333? It is a relative short route. Does anyone know? Is it because they don't have enough 333 but more 343?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: CX288
Posted 2010-07-28 16:21:40 and read 26472 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 2):
I also have a question to the A 340. Why does SWISS use the 340 to BOS instead of the 333? It is a relative short route. Does anyone know? Is it because they don't have enough 333 but more 343?



ZRH-SFO-ZRH and ZRH-BOS-ZRH can be operated with two 340 frames over a 48 hour period. Such scheduling increases aircraft productivity compared to having one 333 dedicated to the ZRH-BOS-ZRH rotation.

Boston was switched to 343 when Shanghai was opened and the aircraft were routed ZRH-PVG-ZRH-BOS-ZRH in a 48 hours circle. Now PVG got replaced by SFO allowing to offer the new business product on every flight to San Fran while only two 340 are equipped with the new seats.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: sandroZRH
Posted 2010-07-28 16:31:14 and read 26469 times.

So, apparently, LX is to get 4 new A320s, one in fall 2010, the rest in early/mid 2011. From what I heard these will NOT be replacing older models. So where will they be using these aircraft to? the first will be used on the three of six GVA-LHR which currently are being operated by bmi. What about the others? increasing frequencies to current destinations, opening new destinations?

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 1):
SWISS has now already 2 A340's with the new Business Class, when will the next one be upgraded?

That does cause you sleepless nights doesnt it?  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-07-28 19:01:03 and read 26423 times.

Quoting CX288 (Reply 3):

Quoting ZRH (Reply 2):
I also have a question to the A 340. Why does SWISS use the 340 to BOS instead of the 333? It is a relative short route. Does anyone know? Is it because they don't have enough 333 but more 343?



ZRH-SFO-ZRH and ZRH-BOS-ZRH can be operated with two 340 frames over a 48 hour period. Such scheduling increases aircraft productivity compared to having one 333 dedicated to the ZRH-BOS-ZRH rotation.

Boston was switched to 343 when Shanghai was opened and the aircraft were routed ZRH-PVG-ZRH-BOS-ZRH in a 48 hours circle. Now PVG got replaced by SFO allowing to offer the new business product on every flight to San Fran while only two 340 are equipped with the new seats.


Thanks, it sounds reasonable, I understand. Funily my parents exacly use these flights in the next few weeks: ZRH-SFO then by AS SEA-BOS then back BOS-ZRH. So they probably have a chance to get the same aircraft on the SFO and BOS leg.
Does anyone know how the AS 738 are? Service quality? (it is BOB)

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-07-28 19:06:52 and read 26420 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 4):
So, apparently, LX is to get 4 new A320s, one in fall 2010, the rest in early/mid 2011. From what I heard these will NOT be replacing older models. So where will they be using these aircraft to? the first will be used on the three of six GVA-LHR which currently are being operated by bmi. What about the others? increasing frequencies to current destinations, opening new destinations?

It is nice to see LX expanding : D . As you mentioned there are basically three options: frequency increase or new destinations or replacing some of the wetleased aircrafts.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: AntonovA330
Posted 2010-07-28 23:46:32 and read 26349 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 4):
So, apparently, LX is to get 4 new A320s, one in fall 2010, the rest in early/mid 2011. From what I heard these will NOT be replacing older models. So where will they be using these aircraft to? the first will be used on the three of six GVA-LHR which currently are being operated by bmi. What about the others? increasing frequencies to current destinations, opening new destinations?

Ahm, shouldn't you know best? Or do you want us to write down a wish list of destinations which you forward to the management   ?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: AntonovA330
Posted 2010-07-29 01:07:39 and read 26323 times.

On LX' website they state that they will get one more A333 and two A320 by spring 2012.. Now, is this the A333 which was planned for WK's use or a completely new one?

http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/about_sw...%20Business%20Report_FINAL%20E.pdf

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-07-29 02:16:57 and read 26276 times.

Quote:
SWISS now intends to further expand its aircraft fleet, with the addition of one more Airbus A330-300 and two A320s. “In doing so, we are continuing our sustainable growth,” Hohmeister comments. With its new A330-300 – its tenth overall – SWISS is investing primarily in growth markets such as the USA, India and Bangkok.

SWISS will also add a tenth Airbus A330-300 to its fleet in spring 2011.

The way I understood these parts from the press release, is that the additional and tenth overall A333 is from the original order of 11 (with one A333 going to WK). Therefore it seems as if no additional A333 has been ordered.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 4):
he first will be used on the three of six GVA-LHR which currently are being operated by bmi.

How is LX performing on the GVA-LHR runs?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: viasa
Posted 2010-07-29 11:17:14 and read 26103 times.

Quoting AntonovA330 (Reply 8):
On LX' website they state that they will get one more A333 and two A320 by spring 2012.. Now, is this the A333 which was planned for WK's use or a completely new one?

http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/about_sw...E.pdf

And don't forget, they have already two A320-200 (one is MSN 4604) and a single A321-200 (MSN 4534) on order.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-07-29 12:09:10 and read 26066 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 4):

That does cause you sleepless nights doesnt it?

lol... yeah if I am flying on a "old" A340 business class seat yes   Hehe no no it's not so bad, however the new Business Class seats are just great.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 4):
So, apparently, LX is to get 4 new A320s, one in fall 2010, the rest in early/mid 2011. From what I heard these will NOT be replacing older models.

I guess SWISS is always a bit behind with their press releases as they are so far only anouncing 2. Until some time ago they also only spoke of 9 A333's although the order is definetly 11 already longer. Possibly LX will also order another one or 2 considering that the Edelweiss A333 will get the reg HB-JHQ instead of HB-JHI?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: nyswiss
Posted 2010-07-29 12:47:11 and read 26020 times.

Wasn't the 10th a "growth aircraft" per Hohmeister with potentially a new destination in the Middle East ?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-08-01 03:33:26 and read 25776 times.

Quoting nyswiss (Reply 12):
Wasn't the 10th a "growth aircraft" per Hohmeister with potentially a new destination in the Middle East ?

Considering that LX currently operates 6 A333's and 3 A332's of which only 2 are used at full capacity the 10th A333's could be used as a growth aircraft. However LX anounced frequency increases as of next summer so we might only see that but no additional destinations for the time being.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: knightsofmalta
Posted 2010-08-03 10:49:30 and read 25520 times.

Hi all!

I'm traveling with LH on Thursday from BSL to FRA and then further on from there. In any case, I received an e-mail reminder from LH and it says that the flight from BSL to FRA is operated by Adria Airways. Is this new, is it an exception or simply a mistake?

Thanks for your help.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: infodesk
Posted 2010-08-03 12:29:04 and read 25453 times.

Quoting knightsofmalta (Reply 14):
Is this new, is it an exception or simply a mistake?

According to the system, flight LH3811 will be operated by Adria. It's a new thing, starting this Thursday and seems set to continue for the next couple of weeks at least

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-04 09:15:30 and read 25301 times.

From SWISS on Facebook:

Quote:
Swiss International Air Lines: Hong Kong is the next destination which will be served with a refurbished A340. The new Business Class featuring the innovative lie-flat seat will be introduced on 14 October, initially with 3 weekly frequencies and then daily from 24 October.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-08-04 12:07:16 and read 25238 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 16):

thanks for the info ZRH

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-04 12:26:25 and read 25230 times.

While we are at it, does anyone know if AF and LX eye any substantial change for the Winter Timetable on their code-shared GVA-CDG line?

High-speed rail competition will indeed get tougher on Paris-Geneva from 12th December.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-08-04 13:56:04 and read 25177 times.

Also, LH is adding a fifth daily flight on the BSL to FRA route effective winter schedule (all flights with CRJ-700).

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-05 10:00:30 and read 25041 times.

Here you find a short report by the pilots of the first SWISS flight to SFO:
http://www.facebook.com/notes/swiss-...a-sunshine-sfo-6/10150221091300725

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-08-05 16:15:12 and read 24946 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 18):
High-speed rail competition will indeed get tougher on Paris-Geneva from 12th December.

I doubt it will have much impact. The new schedule only saves about 12 to 15 minutes, although they originally promised a saving of about 30 minutes.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-05 17:17:13 and read 24933 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 18):
High-speed rail competition will indeed get tougher on Paris-Geneva from 12th December.

I doubt it will have much impact. The new schedule only saves about 12 to 15 minutes, although they originally promised a saving of about 30 minutes.

12-15mins less, yet with 3hrs05min end-to-end at best. Originally it was hoped 20mins off, and 3hrs sharp at best.

CDG is not so suitable to shorthaul point-to-point passengers, and those 15min saved may already make a difference, especially as other improvements are (almost) there.


Done recently:
- Revamping of the (pay) at-seat-catering in 1st class (Elvetino)
- Complimentary newspapers in 1st class
- Complimentary welcome drink in 1st class
- Removal of pre-boarding immigration controls in Geneva, meaning that one can now get at the station until the very last minute with no risk of missing one's train to Paris.

From December 12:
- Premier service in 1st class, with complimentary cold meal. Hot meal available for a fee (EUR 8). Complimentary newspapers and magazines, and dedicated attendants. Mixed French-Swiss crews, so as to guarantee service in French, German and English.

Lounge access is reportedly under study.

From 2012:
- refurbishment of the single-deck stock, with individual power points. Wireless internet under study.

All that may look quite appealling to those premium passengers currently flying AF/LX on CDG-GVA.
More cost-conscious customers will still benefit from shorter journey times and enjoy refurbished stock a bit later.


Late-2011, journey times on Paris-Basel will also be cut down to 3hrs, with the same Premier service as on Paris-Geneva. I wonder how AF will react at BSL. EZY scrapped its 2 daily flights CDG-BSL shortly after rail journey times on Paris-Basel had been cut from 5hrs down to 3hrs30min in 2007.

[Edited 2010-08-05 18:03:02]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-05 22:00:44 and read 24882 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 22):
Late-2011, journey times on Paris-Basel will also be cut down to 3hrs, with the same Premier service as on Paris-Geneva. I wonder how AF will react at BSL. EZY scrapped its 2 daily flights CDG-BSL shortly after rail journey times on Paris-Basel had been cut from 5hrs down to 3hrs30min in 2007.

In these days EZY has other serious problems. They are often much too late, cancel flights and don't help stranded passengers ( there was report about it at TV SF 1 in "10 vor 10"). Even the Basel Airport Authority already complained. The speaker said in this TV report that they urgently have to discuss with EZY. So I any time prefere the TGV over EZY although I love flying.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-08-05 23:04:07 and read 24863 times.

AFs flights out of BSL continue to have high loads despite the TGV.

They still fly 6x a day to Orly and 4x a day to CDG. Instead of A-319/329 they use the smaller Fokker100 and Embraer-170/190.

They have lost point-to-point passengers to/from Paris but the connecting passengers are still there. You can reach many destinations via Orly where the train is no option.

AF also compensates the lost passengers with the BSL-AMS flights that they have started last year.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-05 23:54:38 and read 24968 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 24):
AFs flights out of BSL continue to have high loads despite the TGV.

They still fly 6x a day to Orly and 4x a day to CDG. Instead of A-319/329 they use the smaller Fokker100 and Embraer-170/190.

They have lost point-to-point passengers to/from Paris but the connecting passengers are still there. You can reach many destinations via Orly where the train is no option.

AF also compensates the lost passengers with the BSL-AMS flights that they have started last year.


Thanks for the information. They therefore only lost the Switzerland-Paris travellers. Let's then really hope that EZY achieves better punctuality again. They at least promised it on TV.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-08-06 01:02:49 and read 24929 times.

Let's hope they will improve. Last week they had a good punctuality (at least out of BSL) but today again the LGW flight is delayed 4 hours. That means in the evening they will cancel flights because the aircraft is late.

It could be a technical problem but sometimes it is just bad planning. If you plan a flight at 7 in the morning to LGW you should organise also to have crew for this flight...

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-06 04:59:49 and read 25162 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 23):
In these days EZY has other serious problems. They are often much too late, cancel flights and don't help stranded passengers ( there was report about it at TV SF 1 in "10 vor 10"). Even the Basel Airport Authority already complained. The speaker said in this TV report that they urgently have to discuss with EZY. So I any time prefere the TGV over EZY although I love flying.

In view of this, how likely will EZY suffer on GVA-ORY from the enhanced rail offer? True, TGV improvements will primarily target 1st class, but all passengers will benefit from shorter journey times and refurbished rolling-stock (with new seats, not re-styled existing seats).

While ORY is way better suited for point-to-point shorthaul traffic than CDG, poor timekeeping at EZY may shift the balance on TGV's side

On CDG-GVA, AF will doubtless retain a substantial traffic thanks to transit, especially as it has been feeling home at GVA since the mide-90s, but what about LX? Will they still have an interest in code-sharing with AF on that route?

On Paris-Geneva, there will be 1 extra daily TGV frequency from December (9 daily services instead of 8), and a 10th Frequency in the Timetable 2012.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 24):
AFs flights out of BSL continue to have high loads despite the TGV.

They still fly 6x a day to Orly and 4x a day to CDG. Instead of A-319/329 they use the smaller Fokker100 and Embraer-170/190.

They have lost point-to-point passengers to/from Paris but the connecting passengers are still there. You can reach many destinations via Orly where the train is no option.

Don't forget that BSL doesn't serve Basle only, but also Mulhouse, which enjoys rail journey times to Paris 20min shorter than Basle. From December 2011, Paris-Mulhouse will last as little as 2hrs40min with TGV, instead of the current 3hrs10.

Currently, TGV has 50% of the point-to-point market Paris-Mulhouse/Basle. With some more 30mins saved, it may rise to 65-70% of the market.

The issue is: how viable will the current frequency and the current gauge remain if TGV attracts more point-to-point traffic?

[Edited 2010-08-06 05:04:36]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dalce
Posted 2010-08-06 05:15:53 and read 25149 times.

With what interval do the 320-series get a new paintjob at LX.
Yesterday I flew HB-IOK, an A321, and its paintjob is long overdue, almost all bolts seemed to be bare metal in stead of white!

What does LX currently have on order????
I lost track, some speak of 2x 320, other speak of 4x 320 and 1x 321.
Not to mention we seem to become launch customer of the C-series in Europe.
Could somebody please shine a light on this?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-08-06 07:27:54 and read 25064 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 27):
From December 2011, Paris-Mulhouse will last as little as 2hrs40min with TGV, instead of the current 3hrs10.

Currently, TGV has 50% of the point-to-point market Paris-Mulhouse/Basle. With some more 30mins saved, it may rise to 65-70% of the market.

The issue is: how viable will the current frequency and the current gauge remain if TGV attracts more point-to-point traffic?

Like you said, AF will lose most of the BSL/MLH/SXB to Paris passengers. My point was that the flights now already have a majority of transfer pax. The flights to CDG are full with pax who connect to longhaul flights, that's why the flights will remain. The Orly flights will maybe see a reduction but Alsace region still has a lot of passengers to other French regions as well as the oversea French territories. That's why they will keep a few flights to ORY as well.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-06 08:26:43 and read 25027 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 29):
Like you said, AF will lose most of the BSL/MLH/SXB to Paris passengers.

On PAR-SXB, the process has already started, and within 6 yrs, rail journey times on Paris-Strasburg will be cut by 30min, down to 1hr50min. The Chamber of Commerce and Industry in Strasburg fears a closure or a near closure of SXB-ORY at that time.

What I 'd really be grateful to know, is what the current share of point-to-point and transit pax on CDG-BSL and ORY-BSL is.

Within 5-6 yrs it is also expected that rail journey times on Paris-Mulhouse/Basle will be cut down by a further 10min.
So Paris-Mulhouse in 2h30mins and Paris-Basle in 2hrs50min.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 29):
The flights to CDG are full with pax who connect to longhaul flights, that's why the flights will remain. The Orly flights will maybe see a reduction but Alsace region still has a lot of passengers to other French regions as well as the oversea French territories. That's why they will keep a few flights to ORY as well.

My question is how much of its current offer AF will retain on both routes. On CDG-BSL, I don't think they will cut the frequency that much, but downgrading the gauge to 50-70 seaters may be necessary.

On BSL-ORY, where the share of point-to-point passengers is presumably higher than on BSL-CDG, the harm may be greater.
Even though ORY acts as a French domestic hub, the loss of most of the point-to-point traffic may worsen the economics of that line. In the meantime, EZY still expands on BSL-French regions flights, which may also jeopardise the economics of AF+AF via ORY. EZY already flies BSL-NTE, BSL-BDX, BSL-NCE, and may fly other routes such as BSL-TLS...

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-08-07 03:12:36 and read 24879 times.

I don't know how much pax are point-to-point on MLH-ORY. On a recent flight I and my wife were however almost the only ones exiting in Paris. For me it seems TGV already took away most point-to-point passengers. I agree with your statment though...probably AF will reduce the route in the future...I see them operating to ORY maybe 3-4x a day with CRJ-700 or something like that.

Interestingly, AF for the winter again operates 2 of the 6 flights to ORY with Airbus aircraft instead of the Fokkers.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-07 14:20:38 and read 24713 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 31):
see them operating to ORY maybe 3-4x a day with CRJ-700 or something like that.

At best yes, and might be worse when those further 10mins are saved on the rails round 2015.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 31):
terestingly, AF for the winter again operates 2 of the 6 flights to ORY with Airbus aircraft instead of the Fokkers.

Maybe to cater for Ski traffic?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-08-08 13:51:46 and read 24548 times.

Quoting dalce (Reply 28):
What does LX currently have on order????
I lost track, some speak of 2x 320, other speak of 4x 320 and 1x 321.
Not to mention we seem to become launch customer of the C-series in Europe.
Could somebody please shine a light on this?

officially LX has 2 A320's on order but as with the 10th and 11th A333 (11th going to Edelweiss Air) it was known for a long time however first confirmed by LX some time ago.

I can imagine the 4x A320 + 1x A321 will make sense as LX will surely add the one ore the other destination in europe over the next couple of years in addition we will also hopefully slowly see the wetlease operations go away. However this might ifrst happen once all the C series were delivered of which some will also be used for growth.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-09 03:01:29 and read 24403 times.

For all who are interested in numbers and statistics: on the ZRH page you find a PDF document about anything of ZRH airport (in German):
http://www.zurich-airport.com/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-610/
On the right of this page there is the PDF document which you can download: ZRHpedia. I only found it recently and find it interesting.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: AntonovA330
Posted 2010-08-09 03:42:49 and read 24347 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 34):

Why did the movement numbers in 2006 go down by almost 7000 (2005: 267'363, 2006: 260'786, 2007: 268'476) and around 12'000 in 2009 compared to 2008?
Why are the passenger numbers lower in 2009 than 2008?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-09 04:00:26 and read 24321 times.

Quoting AntonovA330 (Reply 35):
Why did the movement numbers in 2006 go down by almost 7000 (2005: 267'363, 2006: 260'786, 2007: 268'476) and around 12'000 in 2009 compared to 2008?
Why are the passenger numbers lower in 2009 than 2008?

About the movements 2006 I can't tell (bigger aircrafts?) but 2008/2009 is because of the crises. I think about every airport in the world lost 2009 passengers in comparison to 2008. ZRH lost relatively few (only 200 000).

I also find interesting in this document the mix of Star, Oneworld and Skyteam:
18 Star airlines and each 6 OW and ST fly to ZRH.
You also see how dependent the airport is from the LH Group: SWISS (incl EDW) and LH have together a contingent of 65% of the passengers. In this number OS, SN and BD are even not yet included.

[Edited 2010-08-09 04:04:47]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-10 09:56:50 and read 24033 times.

SWISS presents the July traffic figure http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/about_sw...d=SMM_Facebook_TrafficFiguresJUL10 :

Quote:
SWISS continues to post high load factors
Swiss International Air Lines (SWISS) achieved a systemwide seat load factor of 87.2% for July 2010, a slight improvement on the 86.4% of the same month last year. Seat load factor on SWISS’s intercontinental services was as high as 91.2%, an improvement of 1.4 percentage points. The 79.5% seat load factor for SWISS’s European network was a slight 0.6-percentage-point decline on the 80.1% of July 2009.
SWISS operated 6.1% more flights in July 2010 than it had in the prior- year period. The volume of European flights operated rose 6.3%, from 10 395 to 11 054; and the number of intercontinental flights offered was increased 4.5%, from 1 320 to 1 380. A total of 1 327 446 passengers travelled with SWISS in July, 5.1% more than the 1 262 685 of the prior- year period.
SWISS WorldCargo registered a further sizeable improvement in its cargo load factor (by volume) in July. The 78.9% achieved was an increase of 10.8 percentage points on the 68.1% of the same month last year.


I find the 91.2 % on long-haul flights absolutely amazing. This means almost full, therefore it must be difficult to get seats on certain flights.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-10 10:47:46 and read 24009 times.

Thx for the info  
Quoting ZRH (Reply 37):
I find the 91.2 % on long-haul flights absolutely amazing. This means almost full, therefore it must be difficult to get seats on certain flights.

Very much agreed.

That's why I believe LX should expand its offer at a pace of 1 new longhaul destination and 1-2 shorthaul destination per timetable. And increase frequency on some selected routes.

On LUX-ZRH, the morning and the evening flights are often full.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Swissy
Posted 2010-08-10 11:05:56 and read 24001 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 37):
I find the 91.2 % on long-haul flights absolutely amazing. This means almost full, therefore it must be difficult to get seats on certain flights.

If you book early enough (like I do  ), no problemo.... but have noticed lately the flights I take out of YUL are pretty full  , would be nice to get the new 333 down the road.

Good news keep up the good work all you LX employees, you guys rock big time 

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-10 12:37:29 and read 23943 times.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 39):
would be nice to get the new 333 down the road.

I think this won't take a long time. Soon all 332 will be phased out.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-08-10 13:03:24 and read 23945 times.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 39):
If you book early enough (like I do ), no problemo.... but have noticed lately the flights I take out of YUL are pretty full , would be nice to get the new 333 down the road.

Unfortunately, it seems as if YUL and TLV are the two LX destinations which still have their flights see a predominant use of the old A332s. But don't worry, its only a matter of months till these destinations have the new A333s take over.  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-11 04:28:42 and read 23722 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 40):
Soon all 332 will be phased out.

Isn't LX to retain 1-2 332s for contingencies?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-08-11 05:25:49 and read 23705 times.

Some news from BRN airport:

Skywork Airlines have announced new routes to SXF and HAM. Flights to SXF will operate three weekly (mon, fri, sun) while HAM will be operated two times weekly (wed, sat) starting Dec 6. Three weekly flights to Barcelona will be maintained during winter season as well as two weekly flights to Rotterdam. All services are operated with Skyworks Q400 HB-JGA.

Last week Skyworks CEO Nicholas Gribi also announced that the company is looking into adding another Q400 to further expand its network from Bern.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Humberside
Posted 2010-08-11 07:02:42 and read 23627 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 43):
Skywork Airlines have announced new routes to SXF and HAM. Flights to SXF will operate three weekly (mon, fri, sun) while HAM will be operated two times weekly (wed, sat) starting Dec 6.

Are these just for the ski season or new year round routes?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-11 07:55:25 and read 23619 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 42):
Isn't LX to retain 1-2 332s for contingencies?

I don't think so. This is too expensive. The 332 are all going back to the lessor or are sold.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-08-11 07:55:41 and read 23610 times.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 44):
Are these just for the ski season or new year round routes?

No these two routes will be year round flights. If the two destinations perform well we will likely see an increase in frequency, provided Skywork expands their fleet by summer 2011. Prices for all routes on Skywork are starting at CHF 90 one-way all inclusive.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-11 08:47:19 and read 23574 times.

Good news for Belp Airport then  

Any prospects for a rail-air service there? After, BLS runs very close to BRN...

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-08-12 03:11:53 and read 23372 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 47):
Any prospects for a rail-air service there? After, BLS runs very close to BRN...

As long as the demand for flights from BRN doesn't increase significantly nobody will be willing to invest in connecting the airport to the Swiss rail network. At least there is now a decent bus connection to Bern main station albeit the bus is not the fastest connection as it takes over 20 minutes just to get you to the airport.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-13 02:19:35 and read 23189 times.

I hate these NIMBYs. An Edelweiss A 320 landet a bit late in ZRH, at 23:47 because they were delayed from Faro. Now the airport neighbors on the east of the airport want to make a claim against the airport. This is ridiculous.
In German: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...trotz--Nachtsperre-/story/25917797

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dalce
Posted 2010-08-13 02:28:44 and read 23149 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 49):
Now the airport neighbors on the east of the airport want to make a claim against the airport.

It's the same everywhere. And probably they work at the airport or earn their money indirectly via the airport ( suppliers etc ). Ridiculous!

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-08-16 12:25:22 and read 22801 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 49):
I hate these NIMBYs. An Edelweiss A 320 landet a bit late in ZRH, at 23:47 because they were delayed from Faro. Now the airport neighbors on the east of the airport want to make a claim against the airport. This is ridiculous.
In German: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...17797

This is unbelivable, rather that the airline wastes thousands of francs in order that some ignorant people living in the airport area are happy!!!

On an other note, the 8th A330-343, HB-JHH of SWISS joined the fleet and had it's first flight yesterday, sunday from ZRH to JFK.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-08-17 00:36:01 and read 22812 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 49):
Now the airport neighbors on the east of the airport want to make a claim against the airport.

Really bad! I wonder what those ''nice'' neighbors (it seems they live in and around Kloten) would have done if they had been on exactly this flight?
What will they do if they are late on a similar flight once in the future? Are they the first ones who would love to have a night at the airport out there, or in a another Hotel an arrive one day late?  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-17 06:25:31 and read 22655 times.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 39):
If you book early enough (like I do &nbsp Wink, no problemo.... but have noticed lately the flights I take out of YUL are pretty full  , would be nice to get the new 333 down the road.

BTW, today (August 17th) I checked up the flight from YUL (LX 087). It was HB-JHA an A 333.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-08-17 08:29:53 and read 22581 times.

I hate these f******g NIMBYs. If they want their peace and quiet, then they should move to a deserted mountain village in Valais. I also don't think it was a very wise idea by ZRH to agree to the new evening noise restrictions, since it will only be a matter of time until the NIMBYs come up with a new proposal.

I'd love to see the NIMBYs handle an affected flight and tell the pissed off pax personally that their flight isn't allowed to depart/land due to noise restrictions. I as a pax would beat the crap out of them.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 51):
This is unbelivable, rather that the airline wastes thousands of francs in order that some ignorant people living in the airport area are happy!!!

These ignorant fools don't nor do they want to understand the complexity of the industry. Its about time some study showed them how trucks, tractors, cars, mopeds, trains, buses, trams and the local drunk can be just as loud or even louder than airplanes.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-08-17 12:18:07 and read 22498 times.

Quoting glidepath73 (Reply 52):

Really bad! I wonder what those ''nice'' neighbors (it seems they live in and around Kloten) would have done if they had been on exactly this flight?
What will they do if they are late on a similar flight once in the future? Are they the first ones who would love to have a night at the airport out there, or in a another Hotel an arrive one day late?

You know what...fine should there be a very strickt night ban in ZRH, however for every flight a swiss airline needs to cancel because of that ban, all costs involving that delay / cancelation should be covered by the tax payers of the surounding villages that enforced that new strickter ban. Maybe then they will learn and rethink what their ignorant behaviour has for economical consequences.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-08-17 13:34:22 and read 22456 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 55):
all costs involving that delay / cancelation should be covered by the tax payers of the surounding villages that enforced that new strickter ban.

Sounds very interesting! You should forward this proposal to the CEO of ZRH.  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-08-18 11:58:32 and read 22304 times.

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/pas...ten-wegen-verdorbenem-essen-153503

according to the above article from the Swiss newspaper Blick, all the SWISS passengers on last nights LX293 flight from NBO to ZRH had to skip dinner because there were indications that the catering which was loaded in NBO was not fresh.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-18 14:38:04 and read 22263 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 57):
http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/pas...ten-wegen-verdorbenem-essen-153503

according to the above article from the Swiss newspaper Blick, all the SWISS passengers on last nights LX293 flight from NBO to ZRH had to skip dinner because there were indications that the catering which was loaded in NBO was not fresh.


At least something positive from this article: they say 236 passengers. This means a complete fully booked 333, not one seat empty. That's amazing. Now I understand that they had a seat load factor over 90% on long-haul flights.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-19 04:13:02 and read 22157 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 58):
At least something positive from this article: they say 236 passengers. This means a complete fully booked 333, not one seat empty. That's amazing. Now I understand that they had a seat load factor over 90% on long-haul flights.

Agreed  

That's why LX would be well advised to expand its longhaul network and european feeder flights. No wonder that ZRH-NBO-DAR is soon to be upgraded to 6-weekly.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-08-19 05:29:47 and read 22103 times.

Effective winter schedule, easyJet is starting 3 weekly flights between Basel an Tel Aviv. Flights are already on sale.

With this link, Tel Aviv is connected with an important city in Israeli history (Theodor Herzl's Zionist congresses were held in Basel, resulting in the founding of the State of Israel later).

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-19 07:50:16 and read 22195 times.

SQ had to cancel their A 380 flight ZRH-SIN today (Aug 19th) because of an oil leak at one engine. The aircraft stays in ZRH, the passengers will be booked via FRA, CDG, LHR or on the flight tomorrow:
in German: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...n--Triebwerkschaden/story/29666821
Will we so see tomorrow two A 380 at ZRH?

[Edited 2010-08-19 07:51:01]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: swissy
Posted 2010-08-19 08:19:19 and read 22101 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 53):
BTW, today (August 17th) I checked up the flight from YUL (LX 087). It was HB-JHA an A 333.

Cr..., we went home on the 13.  Wow!, we all flew J class... was going to post you guys something about the cr.. check in @ ZRH...
We all flew J, the wife me and our 3 children had 9 suitcases... stupid check in kiosk quit mid way through and we could no longer access it, so one of these "fresh" employees (my guess) told us to move over the the eco check in ... I said wtf... pay J and check in eco???? answer: sorry but they will be able to help you  , we spend close to an hour to finish up check in... wife lost it ... poor guy at the eco check in...however even he said we should not have been here checking in...

Anyhow flight was fantastic   , however next time we take AC again at least we still can check in normal with PEOPLE  in J or eco....

Cheerios friend

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: 330lover
Posted 2010-08-19 08:41:28 and read 22024 times.

Quoting swissy (Reply 62):
one of these "fresh" employees (my guess)
Quoting swissy (Reply 62):
wtf... pay J and check in eco
Quoting swissy (Reply 62):
sorry but they will be able to help you

Think you said enough in the 1st quote. Give them some credit please, they are still learning.
You probably needed some time as well to learn your job properly...

Quoting swissy (Reply 62):
Anyhow flight was fantastic , however next time we take AC again at least we still can check in normal with PEOPLE in J or eco....

Seems check-in quality is more important to you than inflight quality on long flights. (No critics on AC quality!)

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: swissy
Posted 2010-08-19 10:15:22 and read 21977 times.

Quoting 330lover (Reply 63):
Think you said enough in the 1st quote. Give them some credit please, they are still learning.
You probably needed some time as well to learn your job properly...

Sure I did , I am still learning 

My point is, about 4-5 people stayed around these kiosks, a girl helped us until we got stuck witch is fine by me, however another one joined in with about as much knowledge as the girl had and he advised us to get to the eco section despite people being available behind these J kiosks were you drop off the stuff after you did the check in... also it does not harm if you do not know something to get someone who knows it  
Quoting 330lover (Reply 63):
Seems check-in quality is more important to you than inflight quality on long flights. (No critics on AC quality!)

I guess if you paid for the whole deal, check in is a part of the deal in my opinion  

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: sr176
Posted 2010-08-19 11:00:25 and read 21950 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 61):
Will we so see tomorrow two A 380 at ZRH?

Presently standing on E44, most probably leaving tonight. Nice looking in the evening sun.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SandroZRH
Posted 2010-08-19 11:03:36 and read 21947 times.

Quoting swissy (Reply 64):

You do know that there are still dedicated J class check-in desks in check-in 1, do you? I flew J to NRT about a fourthnight ago and I just proceeded straight to the business check-in counters. The guy in front of me was directed to first class check-in and I was promptly served and on my way after about three minutes.

Did you use check-in 1 or 3?

I don't understand why you proceeded to Y class check-in anyway. If memory serves correct, there are also C class desks in check-in 3 and they're almost always deserted, why didn't you proceed to one of the J class counters even though she told you to go to the Y class check-in?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-19 11:06:23 and read 21939 times.

Quoting swissy (Reply 62):
next time we take AC again at least we still can check in normal with PEOPLE in J or eco....

Doesn't LX perform check-in duties for AC flights in ZRH?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: swissy
Posted 2010-08-19 11:52:10 and read 21951 times.

Hey Sandro ,

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 66):
You do know that there are still dedicated J class check-in desks in check-in 1, do you?

Sure I do  ... we used check in 1 and were told to go.... you are right Sandro I should just gone by them to J were you drop of the bags... and talk to these people, we were a group of 7 people total, the last two I upgraded to J @ the gate for 500SFR. each.
Last December I traveled the same route in J without any problems..., my wife wanted to take AC from beginning because we took the kids this time but I convinced her via YUL with LX is way better then AC non stop...

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 67):
Doesn't LX perform check-in duties for AC flights in ZRH?

No Swiss Port is doing it over @ check in 3 (old B) for AC, SR YUL handling is also not done by AC... believe it is Handlex...

Have a great time flying Sandro, perhaps next time we can hook up for a bier or two and you can introduce me to all these new changes @ ZRH airport 

cheerios,

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: knightsofmalta
Posted 2010-08-19 12:48:20 and read 21987 times.

LH seems to be having problems with its A380 too. I was recently in FRA and saw it leave 5 hours late.

[Edited 2010-08-19 12:55:27]

[Edited 2010-08-19 12:55:53]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Pilot21
Posted 2010-08-20 01:04:21 and read 21537 times.

Quoting knightsofmalta (Reply 69):
LH seems to be having problems with its A380 too



Well, every aircraft will have a bad day, but LH are not having issues. In fact LH actually put out a Press Statement shortly after their 2nd aircraft arrived to say that so far the fleet had operated with 100% reliability - a fact almost unheard of with new aircraft introductions to an airline. This did jinx the performance with MB then having 1 of it's engines shut down inflight by the flight crew due to unusual readouts, but LH and SQ are not suffering because of A380 reliability (or lack of it), that you can be sure of.

Pilot21

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-08-20 08:41:44 and read 20806 times.

With the exception of US Airways and Continental, all *A carriers serving ZRH and LX are handled by Swissport. The check-in area and process depends on what airline you're flying. Passengers booked on TG, SQ, AC and TK operated flights have to check-in at their own dedicated desks over at Check-In 2, while all other airlines are processed at Check-In 1 or 3. In addition to this, passengers booked in Y can only check-in at the machines, while C-Class passengers still have the freedom of choosing either the machines or the traditional method at the desk when using Check-In 1. The only exception here is United, which have their own dedicated section with machines and desks at the beginning of the Y-Class area in Check-In 1.

Quoting swissy (Reply 68):
you are right Sandro I should just gone by them to J were you drop of the bags

Most likely they would've sent you away there too. The agents at the drop off counters are instructed to turn away all non-checked-in passengers. You should've just tried at the dedicated C or F-Class counters (they're empty most of the times anyways).

Quoting swissy (Reply 62):
so one of these "fresh" employees (my guess) told us to move over the the eco check in

Either for some reason the Check-In desks in the C-Class section were unattended or he just didn't know better. Regardless, this shouldn't have happened.

Checking-in with the machines can be a painful experience, especially since the ones used at ZRH are quite unreliable in certain situations (e.g. travelling as a large group and/or on long-haul flights). Also, it is a disgrace and an absolute joke that the machines of a quality airline like LX only come with three language options for their international clientele.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: swissy
Posted 2010-08-21 04:52:52 and read 20158 times.

Thanks for the info aviationmaster , I guess I am getting old or do not fly nough out of ZRH anymore...

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 71):
Checking-in with the machines can be a painful experience,

I believe these machines have their place/use, agree they have their limitations.... I counted 4-5 LX employees at these C kiosks... while we tried to get our tickets (around 9:30-10)... I sometimes wonder "how much" $$$ LX is saving with these kiosk...

Kudos to the crew as the flight was just fantastic , our compliments to the chef as the meal was outstanding 

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-08-22 07:55:45 and read 19958 times.

Some news from LX's facebook page regarding YUL and the A333:

Quote:
Last Sunday we put our 8th new Airbus A330-300 into operation. With the newest A333 in our fleet we will be serving Zurich - Montreal from 31 October, initially with 3 weekly frequencies (Friday-Sunday).
Quoting swissy (Reply 72):
Thanks for the info aviationmaster , I guess I am getting old or do not fly nough out of ZRH anymore...

Don't worry, as ZRH has been a construction site for the past 15 years, things are always changing here.  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: swissy
Posted 2010-08-22 16:14:07 and read 19783 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 73):
Don't worry, as ZRH has been a construction site for the past 15 years, things are always changing here.


Sounds about right... I left (16 years) the good old CH (ZRH) everything was oki doki 

Sounds good... still working on the wife as I am planing being back for x-mas so I can show our kids how x-mas is back home...  and if we could catch the 333 with the new c-class... I guess even the wife would reconsider!!! 

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2010-08-26 09:26:07 and read 19480 times.

There's something I don't understand about the A340 on ZRH-SFO: once I read that LX has now refurbished the Business cabin on both A340's doing that route. My parents just got back from SFO and had the old, non-refurbished cabin, and were very disappointed (especially after being told that the SFO route had the new one, and after paying a fortune for the ticket). On the onward flight they caught the "SFO A340" with the special livery, so that part at least was fine.

Was this just bad luck (a last-minute equipment change for some reason), or does this happen regularly?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: 330lover
Posted 2010-08-26 09:46:32 and read 19454 times.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 75):
Was this just bad luck (a last-minute equipment change for some reason), or does this happen regularly?

I suppose you answered your own question. They have now at least 2 refurbished 340's operating between ZRH and SFO/BOS daily. let's imagine a 340 from BOS is delayed, they will opt to send one of the non-refurbished ones to SFO in stead of delaying the flight for hours...

So, probably yes, just bad luck due to last minute aircraft change.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-26 09:50:35 and read 19587 times.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 75):
There's something I don't understand about the A340 on ZRH-SFO: once I read that LX has now refurbished the Business cabin on both A340's doing that route. My parents just got back from SFO and had the old, non-refurbished cabin, and were very disappointed (especially after being told that the SFO route had the new one, and after paying a fortune for the ticket). On the onward flight they caught the "SFO A340" with the special livery, so that part at least was fine.

Was this just bad luck (a last-minute equipment change for some reason), or does this happen regularly?

I think this was only bad luck. Usually the JMJ and JMK with the new business do this flights in alternation with BOS. My parents recently flew ZRH-SFO and then BOS-ZRH, they had on both flights JMK.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: 330lover
Posted 2010-08-26 09:54:58 and read 19575 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 77):
I suppose you answered your own question. They have now at least 2 refurbished 340's operating between ZRH and SFO/BOS daily. let's imagine a 340 from BOS is delayed, they will opt to send one of the non-refurbished ones to SFO in stead of delaying the flight for hours...

So, probably yes, just bad luck due to last minute aircraft change.
Quoting ZRH (Reply 77):
I think this was only bad luck. Usually the JMJ and JMK with the new business do this flights in alternation with BOS. My parents recently flew ZRH-SFO and then BOS-ZRH, they had on both flights JMK.

Thought the same.
Great minds think alike  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2010-08-26 09:58:13 and read 19575 times.

Quoting 330lover (Reply 76):
So, probably yes, just bad luck due to last minute aircraft change.

So my assumptions were right. Thank you. Now I owe my parents a dinner ... for some reason, if LX screws up, it always seems to be my fault  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-27 04:42:42 and read 19376 times.

Any chance that LX orders a few more 333s, so as to replace 343s in use on CAI, BOS and MIA?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-27 06:33:31 and read 19319 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 80):
Any chance that LX orders a few more 333s, so as to replace 343s in use on CAI, BOS and MIA?

I don't think so. Why should they? The 343 are not very old.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dalce
Posted 2010-08-27 06:38:55 and read 19331 times.

I could see LH/LX order some more widebodies for LX, but not for replacing the 340's. If they order more, it will be for expansion.
For example ZRH-BOS will remain to be served with 340's due to the earlier mentioned option to fly ZRH_SFO & ZRH-BOS daily with 2 frames.
The same goes for CAI probably and MIA will perhaps need the 340 due to performance in hot weather (?)

New 330 frames can certainly be utilized to expand in NATL and MiddleEast&India.
Why not start to serve IAD, PHL & YYZ and IKA, CCU with new 333's....  
If it is realistic.....well, probably not, but sounds good anyway!

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-27 08:12:51 and read 19256 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 81):
I don't think so. Why should they? The 343 are not very old.

Agreed, but such distances, 333s would be more fuel-efficient. New F accommodation would also be available. A great pity that 343s will not be fitted with 333 F and Y interiors.

The 343s used on BOS, MIA and CAI could therefore be cascaded to other, new longhaul routes too long for 333s.

Quoting dalce (Reply 82):
New 330 frames can certainly be utilized to expand in NATL and MiddleEast&India.
Why not start to serve IAD, PHL & YYZ and IKA, CCU with new 333's....
If it is realistic.....well, probably not, but sounds good anyway!

PHL, IAD and YYZ are already served to/from ZRH by other Star partners (US, UA and AC). IAD and YYZ could certainly see a LX 333 replacing UA/ACmetal, but on ZRH-PHL, a 333 might be a little too big, at least in the short run. Among those 3 destinations, only IAD has potential for a 2nd Star Alliance daily flight to/from ZRH.

IKA is very unlikely to come soon, as Switzerland takes the same stance on Iran as US+EU.

CCU is too leisure-oriented in my view. More for WK than LX.

This being said, LX could certainly open other destinations, on a daily basis:

- IAH (333, with CO)
- GIG (343, with JJ)
- DKR (333)
- LOS (333)
- MRU (343)
- BLR (333, with AI)
- KUL (343)
- PEK (343, with CA)
- CAN (343, with CA)
- ICN (343, with OZ)
- KIX (343, with NH)

If LX had a few 3-class 321-200s, it could also operate on a daily basis:

- LCA (2-daily)
- BEY (2-daily)
- BAH
- ACC
- PHC
- LBV

More 333s and 343s could also be used to step up frequency on ORD, DXB (or start AUH, depending whether LX will move to JXB or not) and NRT. And also to replace the 738 used on EWR.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: vegas005
Posted 2010-08-27 08:59:06 and read 19227 times.

what happened with the Helvitic flight yesterday BHX-ZRH? There was an Airbus substitute and the Fokker 100 was parked away from the gate. Saw the flight attendants sitting in business class looking pretty wiped out after a long day...

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-08-27 11:23:12 and read 19175 times.

I saw a Helvetic Fokker 100 yesterday around 3pm with its nose radar cover opened sitting on one of its usual stands north of Dock A. I just landed with a RJ100 from MUC.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SandroZRH
Posted 2010-08-27 12:19:27 and read 19149 times.

I've long been wondering why LX doesn't use more A32Xs for overnight flights (a la SKG) to the Middle East and North Africa, similiar to what LH does. Possible destinations could include Beirut, Amman, Damascus, Tunis and Casablanca. Passengers could connect to LX's whole european network on the first morning wave, and to a handful of longhaul destinations departing mid-morning.

This would facilitate better loads across the whole network and improve aircraft utilisation.

Then again, I hate those redeyes, so I should probably better shut my mouth.   

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 83):

I could see IAH, DKR, LOS and ICN work, aswell as a second daily IAD.

MRU is low yielding as it is almost exclusively leisure traffic, maybe EDW could make it work, but it won't be working for LX. The same goes for GIG, while not as much as MRU, it is still a notoriously low yielding destination, and with a 12hrs+ flight time it's almost impossible to make it work from ZRH, let alone daily.

I don't think KUL would work either, as there are no opportunities for onward connections ex-KUL (ie. to Australia) and the area is well served by LX, TG and SQ through nearby SIN and BKK. There's a reason why MH pulled out of this market not long ago, they couldn't even make it work with an LX codeshare.

I'm not familiar with BLR, but the market seems too small for a direct route, plus India is suffering from a lot of overcapacity and heavy competition from not just European, but especially the gulf carriers. I think India is well covered by LX through DEL and BOM, and other destinations in India are best served via codeshare agreements on AI should there be a market.

As for PEK and CAN, I still think China is overrated. PVG isn't a stellar performer for LX and I don't think that LX can make more than one destination work in China, especially with nonstop flights. SR used to serve both PVG and PEK via a tag-on service, but such flights are known to be rather unpopular especially with C and F class passengers, making them low yielding. In fact, tag-on longhaul flights are on the verge of extinction with only a few handful of flights still operating as we speak.

Lastly, KIX. As far as I'm aware, KIX has never performed well for SR. Secondly, I think it's served by LH which will cater for any A* Switzerland-KIX traffic. And finally, I believe LX would be wise to start ICN instead of KIX and serve KIX through a codeshare on OZ should there be a market.

Anyway, these are my personal views and ideas and I do in no way represent LX or any other part of the LH group.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: swissy
Posted 2010-08-27 16:19:03 and read 19082 times.

Quoting dalce (Reply 82):
New 330 frames can certainly be utilized to expand in NATL and MiddleEast&India.
Why not start to serve IAD, PHL & YYZ and IKA, CCU with new 333's....  
If it is realistic.....well, probably not, but sounds good anyway!

SR used to fly ZRH-YUL-YYZ with the MD11.... did work, sure things have changed however flying via the US to ZRH?? no thank you , get some more "AC hub" connection via YYZ to ZRH could work very good.. and use AC/LX metal   

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-08-27 16:30:30 and read 19086 times.

After returning from ORD back to Switzerland on LH through MUC I'm wondering about the cooperation of Lufthansa and Swiss concerning gates shared or handling done for both companies.
At ORD LX flights are handled at Terminal 5 while LH leave from Terminal 1 next to the UA gates. LX having only one daily flight to ORD I don't really see why they don't operate out of the same place as their owner airline and save some money by having their flights handled by LH personnel.
Now I don't know how this works at every other LX destination but I only see one destination where LX flights can be handled alone (JFK with three daily flights) and of course destinations where LX operates solely.

So could anybody tell me the reason why LX flights aren't handled alongside LH and where they actually cooperate on the ground.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-08-27 19:10:14 and read 19066 times.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 86):
I've long been wondering why LX doesn't use more A32Xs for overnight flights (a la SKG) to the Middle East and North Africa, similiar to what LH does. Possible destinations could include Beirut, Amman, Damascus, Tunis and Casablanca. Passengers could connect to LX's whole european network on the first morning wave, and to a handful of longhaul destinations departing mid-morning.

That could be an idea, but the curfew at ZRH may be a hurdle on shorter night routes.

CMN and TUN would deserve daytime flights. Night flights operated with aircrafts having the usual single-class European seating layout may damage the premium image of LX.

ZRH-BEY could work at night, on condition that there is a 2nd flight, daytime.

Given that ZRH-BEY would be 4hrs something, a longhaul hard and soft product would be advisable, especially on such a premium airline as LX. AF and ME offer a genuine longhaul product on BEY-Europe.

AMM and DAM have too little potential I am afraid, while BEY has more ties with Europe, and is at last recovering its pre-war status, little by little.

Similarly, LCA would also be relevant, as Cyprus drains good higher-yield traffic with Europe, both business and leisure. And probably even more when the Southern part of Cyprus joins the Schengen Area next year.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 86):
MRU is low yielding as it is almost exclusively leisure traffic, maybe EDW could make it work, but it won't be working for LX.

MRU is mainly a leisure destination, but not so lower-yield. Hard to get a return from Europe under EUR 1,000 in Y, and at peaks, it can near EUR 1,500. The Mauritian governement is also keen on promoting higher-yield accommodation on the island, and is really weary of mass tourism. Mauritius also generates some interesting business traffic, although tourism prevails.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 86):
The same goes for GIG, while not as much as MRU, it is still a notoriously low yielding destination, and with a 12hrs+ flight time it's almost impossible to make it work from ZRH, let alone daily.

GIG, I believe, drains a more mixed traffic, and code-sharing with JJ shall also make a difference.
ZRH-HKG is 12hrs30 in average and has a daily flight, though, even if the yields are higher there.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 86):
I don't think KUL would work either, as there are no opportunities for onward connections ex-KUL (ie. to Australia) and the area is well served by LX, TG and SQ through nearby SIN and BKK. There's a reason why MH pulled out of this market not long ago, they couldn't even make it work with an LX codeshare.

KUL is a harder target I agree, but might be more realistic within a few years, as Malaysia keeps developing.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 86):
I'm not familiar with BLR, but the market seems too small for a direct route, plus India is suffering from a lot of overcapacity and heavy competition from not just European, but especially the gulf carriers. I think India is well covered by LX through DEL and BOM, and other destinations in India are best served via codeshare agreements on AI should there be a market.

India still has a bright future as an aviation market, and LX has missed a lot of opportunities there, as it was struggling for survival from 2002 to 2005, after coming to life in the worst possible conditions.

The Gulf carriers are tough competitors, but frankly, a short, smooth connection at ZRH at civilised times will in my view always be distinctly superior to a half-a-night transit at DXB. I enjoy Dubai as a destination very much, but I am not too impressed at transit conditions at DXB. Especially when travelling Y, which means joining a sleeping human crowd on the floor. In J, the conditions at the Lounge are better, but not ideal, as it's noisy and crowded. Only F is really worth it.

QR and EY may offer better in-flight products and lounges at DOH and AUH than EK , but it will never mitigate the hassle of connecting in the middle of the night.

And again, AI code-sharing on ZRH-BLR may improve the case for such route.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 86):
As for PEK and CAN, I still think China is overrated. PVG isn't a stellar performer for LX and I don't think that LX can make more than one destination work in China, especially with nonstop flights. SR used to serve both PVG and PEK via a tag-on service, but such flights are known to be rather unpopular especially with C and F class passengers, making them low yielding. In fact, tag-on longhaul flights are on the verge of extinction with only a few handful of flights still operating as we speak.

I was not talking of a tag-on PEK/PVG, yet of a genuine ZRH-PEK nonstop flight, using a 343, or maybe a 333, which should very much suit higher-yield passengers. OS and SK serve PEK, so why not LX?

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 86):
Lastly, KIX. As far as I'm aware, KIX has never performed well for SR. Secondly, I think it's served by LH which will cater for any A* Switzerland-KIX traffic. And finally, I believe LX would be wise to start ICN instead of KIX and serve KIX through a codeshare on OZ should there be a market.

KIX is not an easy market, but serves anyway a good, higher-yield area. AY and AZ fly there, so why not LX?


Now if you take a new glance at the list of destinations which I have suggested, you will find 3-4 main features:

- major hubs of *A partner airlines, or if not, good niches where current offer is too limited and/or overpriced
- bigger airports
- airports of emerging countries, where the market expands at a quick pace. Besides good transit through ZRH, such countries also drain good higher-yield traffic with Switzerland, both business and leasure.


SR may have had problems at KIX and PEK, but those times are already quite remote (perhaps there should be a A.netters event at ZRH on October 2, 2011...). Since then, markets have expanded, especially in emerging countries, while LX is no longer isolated as SR was in the 1990s, in view of all the partners it has within Star Alliance.

See how ZRH-SFO has performed since early-June, compared to the times when SR tried to fly that route some 15yrs ago...

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: tffip
Posted 2010-08-27 23:49:26 and read 19038 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 40):
Soon all 332 will be phased out.

How many of them in all?

Quoting ZRH (Reply 45):
The 332 are all going back to the lessor or are sold.

Folks at BMI are gossiping about 5 A330s coming in 2011, the latest rumor
that they are from LX. (Rumor will be superceded by another figure from another
source soon if this is impossible from LX....)

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-08-31 09:54:57 and read 18710 times.

Quoting tffip (Reply 90):
How many of them in all?

I have to admit that I am not sure anymore but I think SWISS had 13 A 332? Probably someone else knows it better.
I don't think that some aircrafts go to BMI, I think all are already allocated. A few are going to Vietnam airlines.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: HAM
Posted 2010-09-05 00:32:51 and read 18411 times.

For those interested in flying the MD90, there's a chance to fly one in January: Hello does a farewell-flight on the occasion of their fleet renewal. MD90 scenic flight around the alps, 30 January 2011, organised by airevents.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-09-09 09:00:23 and read 17917 times.

I have noticed that LX currently seems to be saving up on cycles on the A340, HB-JMN, with 2 more A333's to be delivered of which one is for capacity increase as of next spring, SWISS still operates 2 -3 A332's in it's fleet currently and constantly has one A343 on the ground, mainly HB-JMN since a couple of weeks. Is SWISS just saving up on cycles on one of it's oldest A343's or can't they get rid of at least one of the A332's still in operation earlier due to the leasing contract expiring at a later stage?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-09-12 03:04:40 and read 17667 times.

According to the Sunday press, Swiss is thinking about replacing the Avros in Basel with Airbus aircraft to be able to compete better with easyJet.

I think it will be interesting to see how it will work out. For some routes (ZRH, BRU) an Airbus will be too big. In LCY an Airbus cannot land. BCN, HAM, BUD etc. have high load factors so it could work with an Airbus.

I still think they should not concentrate too much about easyJet anyway. Each airline has its pros and cons and LX operates to some destinations without easyJet anyway.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: sandroZRH
Posted 2010-09-12 04:52:45 and read 17585 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 94):
According to the Sunday press, Swiss is thinking about replacing the Avros in Basel with Airbus aircraft to be able to compete better with easyJet.

hmm, where do they wanna get these aircraft and crews from? they don't even have enough aircraft to serve their whole route network as it is. They'd better terminate their wetlseasing contracts first..

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 94):
I still think they should not concentrate too much about easyJet anyway. Each airline has its pros and cons and LX operates to some destinations without easyJet anyway.

I agree   

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-09-13 00:19:39 and read 17348 times.

Just speculating but maybe bmi will again cooperate with LX. Or even takes over the London route.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: knightsofmalta
Posted 2010-09-13 06:43:05 and read 17239 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 96):
Just speculating but maybe bmi will again cooperate with LX. Or even takes over the London route.

Actually LX is currently looking into resuming the BSL-LHR route, although so far no decision has been taken as to whether this would be a route they would operate themselves or whether it would be operate by BD for LX. In any case I think it would have to be a code-share.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-13 08:13:37 and read 17196 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 94):
I still think they should not concentrate too much about easyJet anyway. Each airline has its pros and cons and LX operates to some destinations without easyJet anyway.

Agreed.

But more 319s and less AR1s operated by LX at BSL may boost commonality, and enhance the image of LX, even on those routes where EZY doesn't fly itseld. Perhaps some 318s should be used on LCY routes.


Glad to read that LX is to expand operations at BSL, almost 10 yrs after the old LX was sacrificed to preserve Swiss Civil Aviation.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: runway23
Posted 2010-09-13 09:56:08 and read 17136 times.

There was also mention in last week's travelinside about LX wanting to further expand GVA.

Is this just more hot air like in the past where LX promises loads of things for BSL and GVA but ultimately does nothing meaningful ? Both operations are unfortunately still far from what they used to be.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-09-13 10:43:35 and read 17113 times.

This sounds interesting but I am asking myself if a medium sized long-haul airline really can afford to run three airports in such a small country? Wouldn't it be better to focus in feeding the long-haul flights and perhaps found an LCC to be able to compete with EZY, FR etc. in BSL and GVA? Or make Edelweiss to a scheduled LCC and give them some more Airbus.

[Edited 2010-09-13 10:46:24]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: knightsofmalta
Posted 2010-09-13 13:37:59 and read 17034 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 100):
This sounds interesting but I am asking myself if a medium sized long-haul airline really can afford to run three airports in such a small country? Wouldn't it be better to focus in feeding the long-haul flights and perhaps found an LCC to be able to compete with EZY, FR etc. in BSL and GVA? Or make Edelweiss to a scheduled LCC and give them some more Airbus.

Well first of all I think LX serves two very different markets from BSL and ZRH that comlement each other. Setting up an independent entity with an own brand identity would only cause more expenses than anything else, because LX is only a medium sized carrier and relies on being flexible.

What I do think however is that just like the Avros, which have a pretty little 'operated by Swiss European Airlines' sticker, we may soon see a few A320 flying around in the LX livery with pretty little 'operated by Edelweiss Air' stickers on them.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-09-13 13:54:01 and read 17098 times.

One of the problems for Swiss is that BSL has become a national (and not only regional) airport in the last years. Just have a look in the parking area of the airport where you can see all kind of cantonal car numbers. easyJet and others are fishing passengers in all parts of Switzerland, also in ZRH, the home market of LX. It's something Swiss cannot like.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Humberside
Posted 2010-09-13 14:14:32 and read 17083 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 100):
Wouldn't it be better to focus in feeding the long-haul flights and perhaps found an LCC to be able to compete with EZY, FR etc. in BSL and GVA? Or make Edelweiss to a scheduled LCC and give them some more Airbus.

That plan would unlikely would work on BSL-BRU/LCY or GVA-LCY/LHR/DME. So either LX would have to give up these important markets, or still maintain an own brand short haul operation at BSL and GVA

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-09-13 22:19:26 and read 17007 times.

Quoting knightsofmalta (Reply 101):


Well first of all I think LX serves two very different markets from BSL and ZRH that comlement each other. Setting up an independent entity with an own brand identity would only cause more expenses than anything else, because LX is only a medium sized carrier and relies on being flexible.

What I do think however is that just like the Avros, which have a pretty little 'operated by Swiss European Airlines' sticker, we may soon see a few A320 flying around in the LX livery with pretty little 'operated by Edelweiss Air' stickers on them.


I agree with most of that but I am not sure if SWISS is able to serve both markets: to feed the long-haul flights and to compete with the LCC in the very low fare segement from secondary airports.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-09-14 00:19:08 and read 16937 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 104):
I agree with most of that but I am not sure if SWISS is able to serve both markets: to feed the long-haul flights and to compete with the LCC in the very low fare segement from secondary airports.

Even without the LCC market if I remember correctly the Crossair operations were not profitable at the end, especially their "eurocross" hub that they set up in Basel in the late 90s. At the end of the day Switzerland can not be compared with Germany for instance where you have at least 2 major hubs that operate successfully as FRA and MUC do. For the national carrier of Switzerland SWISS they can only have one successfull hub which is Zurich and from both GVA and BSL they should focus to serve some key routes which has a lot of high yield traffic. For GVA this works rather well so far as there the demand with all the headquarters of the international corporation is probably higher. Although Easy Jet is as well present in GVA it really seems as BSL became the "low cost" airport of Switzerland and the question really is if SWISS should invest too much money and time in improving their presence. Probably it might be worth to offer a more premium product by offering flights to LHR and a couple of more destinations with A32S equipment but probably there will be not more potential to run the operations profitable.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: runway23
Posted 2010-09-14 02:53:30 and read 16877 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 100):
This sounds interesting but I am asking myself if a medium sized long-haul airline really can afford to run three airports in such a small country? Wouldn't it be better to focus in feeding the long-haul flights and perhaps found an LCC to be able to compete with EZY, FR etc. in BSL and GVA? Or make Edelweiss to a scheduled LCC and give them some more Airbus.

Unfortunately, Swiss/Swissair/Crossair lost the markets in BSL and GVA over time. Almost all of the markets they served in the past have been taken over and largely grown by respective carriers.

Swiss has been quite successful when they tried to attack easyjet (eg. BUD, PRG from GVA where they pushed Malev, easyjet and baboo off these markets, or BCN/ATH that stood up to competition).

I think Swiss could easily grow both markets, especially with all the bad press easyjet has gone through these past few months.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-14 18:24:07 and read 16674 times.

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 100):
This sounds interesting but I am asking myself if a medium sized long-haul airline really can afford to run three airports in such a small country? Wouldn't it be better to focus in feeding the long-haul flights
BSL and GVA have good large and whealthy catchment areas, and LX would shoot itself in the foot if they abandoned point-to-point European flights at those airports to competitors.

Should LX lose (near) daily, routine contact with those markets (i.e. by scrapping their shorthaul flights there), they could also lose part of those passengers from flying longhaul from Geneva/Basle areas via ZRH.

If you fly GVA-LCY or BSL-BRU 1-2 a month with LX, you stand a better chance flying LX more occasionally (holiday, longer business trip) to NYC or BKK, rather than if you have to do with only BA/AF on GVA-LCY or EZY on BSL-BRU.

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 100):
perhaps found an LCC to be able to compete with EZY, FR etc. in BSL and GVA? Or make Edelweiss to a scheduled LCC and give them some more Airbus.
GVA and BSL can sustain a Legacy on short-, no to mention medium-haul flights.

Quoting knightsofmalta (Reply 101):
Well first of all I think LX serves two very different markets from BSL and ZRH that complement each other. Setting up an independent entity with an own brand identity would only cause more expenses than anything else,

Agreed.

SR-LX faced both diseconomies of scale by being split from each other, even though the latter was in the end a subsidiary of the former. Remember that post-Alcazar unsucessfull talks, Moritz Sutter of LX then raised the Swiss International Airlines concept, whereby SR and LX would go for corporate and operational integration...

Quoting knightsofmalta (Reply 101):
What I do think however is that just like the Avros, which have a pretty little 'operated by Swiss European Airlines' sticker, we may soon see a few A320 flying around in the LX livery with pretty little 'operated by Edelweiss Air' stickers on them.

This is something which we may see indeed, especially as 320s of WK now have the same cabins as those of LX. And at a later stage, possibly a merger of WK and Swiss European Airlines, if this is to bring enough economies of scale.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 102):
One of the problems for Swiss is that BSL has become a national (and not only regional) airport in the last years.

I don't see this as a problem, rather as a chance to see a superb yet underused airport infrastructure to be better used.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 102):
It's something Swiss cannot like.

Indeed, and that's why they should not retreat from BSL and GVA, and expand (reasonably) point-to-point European flights there.

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 104):
agree with most of that but I am not sure if SWISS is able to serve both markets: to feed the long-haul flights and to compete with the LCC in the very low fare segement from secondary airports.
GVA and BSL deserve something better than just and only LCCs, in my view. Both GVA and BSL have banks and corporate headquarters, while GVA also hosts various intergovernmental organisations, serve the wealthy Leman area and the scenic White Mount area as well. BSL also serve a strong industry, and the South of the affluent Oberrhein area.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 105):
Even without the LCC market if I remember correctly the Crossair operations were not profitable at the end, especially their "eurocross" hub that they set up in Basel in the late 90s.

Indeed, in the last years of SR, the whole SAirGroup fell ill, even though some of its subsidiaries were doing well. Diseconomies of scale had an adverse impact on both SR and LX, while Balair went in shambles.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 105):
SWISS they can only have one successfull hub which is Zurich and from both GVA and BSL they should focus to serve some key routes which has a lot of high yield traffic.

Agreed as far as the next 15-20yrs are concerned. ZRH has room and potential to accommodate more longhaul flights (frequency increases and new destinations), while quite many European LX routes currently operated with 2-3 daily flights should and will probably get a 4th flight within this timeframe. Some new European destinations may reasonably come, too.

However, on those European destinations where there are already 4 daily flights at least to/from ZRH, LX could perhaps develop further frequency from BSL/GVA rather than ZRH (unless there is specific, unmet point-to-point demand at ZRH), so as to reclaim momentum there.

Within 20-25yrs, ZRH might be full, and LX (+ Star Alliance partners) could then build on the momentum gained at GVA and BSL to operate these as mini-hubs, at least for European transit, so that capacity on ZRH European flights be released for point-to-point or longhaul-connecting passengers. But I don't see that coming earlier than 2030.

Longhaulwise, I see no case for LX to start flights to/from BSL, but more for competitors. EK could nicely fit there, and it could be a good niche for Open Skies, too.

GVA is another story, but I think we will see more Star Alliance partners than LX starting new flights there.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 105):
it really seems as BSL became the "low cost" airport of Switzerland and the question really is if SWISS should invest too much money and time in improving their presence.

If there is a market, LX will expand there. Airport infrastructure is there, and I am sure EuroAirport will be delighted to have further growth prospects, other than driven by LCCs. Swiss is a well-rated brand in the Basle area, especially as its headquarters are there, while the requisite airport infrastructure is already available.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 106):
Unfortunately, Swiss/Swissair/Crossair lost the markets in BSL and GVA over time.

New LX lost momentum there, inevitably, as it took over SR business in the worst thinkable conditions, and bled again and again until 2005. But LX has never left BSL and GVA and has conversely begun to regain some of its lost momentum there. Fingers crossed.

At GVA, the deepest cuts actually took place in the mid-90s, when SR concentrated its longhaul flights in ZRH.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 106):
I think Swiss could easily grow both markets, especially with all the bad press easyjet has gone through these past few months.

Very much agreed. EZY recent and current misfortune is a golden, one-off opportunity for LX to strenghten its position at BSL and GVA.


GVA will certainly enhance its catchment area, as direct rail services to Evian, Annecy and the White Mount area become thinkable, round 2015-2016.

BSL could see its prospects significantly improve once it gets a genuine railway station, both for France and Switzerland.

[Edited 2010-09-14 18:28:49]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-09-14 19:05:31 and read 16662 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 107):
Quoting knightsofmalta (Reply 101):
What I do think however is that just like the Avros, which have a pretty little 'operated by Swiss European Airlines' sticker, we may soon see a few A320 flying around in the LX livery with pretty little 'operated by Edelweiss Air' stickers on them.

This is something which we may see indeed, especially as 320s of WK now have the same cabins as those of LX. And at a later stage, possibly a merger of WK and Swiss European Airlines, if this is to bring enough economies of scale.

Do you really think LX mainline A320-family pilots would agree to that? I doubt it.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 107):
Within 20-25yrs, ZRH might be full, and LX (+ Star Alliance partners) could then build on the momentum gained at GVA and BSL to operate these as mini-hubs, at least for European transit, so that capacity on ZRH European flights be released for point-to-point or longhaul-connecting passengers. But I don't see that coming earlier than 2030.

GVA is also close to full and will never be able to increase capacity apart from using larger aircraft as it will never have more than the current one runway.

You make many comments about LX increasing service to GVA. However they can only do that at the expense of ZRH and Switzerland isn't big ienough for 2 hubs. And, apart from LHR/LCY/DME, almost all current LX nonstops from GVA are mainly to leisure destinations and schedules are rarely attractive to business traffic. I believed LX uses those few flights from GVA (often just once a day and not even at consistent times every day) to use surplus capacity. I have flown LX several times GVA-PRG and GVA-BUD and it is almost totally leisure traffic and usually at very low fares (sometimes lower than EasyJet). It is rare to see more than one or two passengers in business class, often none.

And from BSL, it is very convenient to use the one-hour train service to ZRH airport which can be booked as LX flight numbers and ticketed like any other LX flight. Most of the few LX routes from BSL are also leisure-oriented.and fares are often very low. I have even flown from BSL rather than from GVA a few times as, even after adding the train fare GVA-BSL-GVA, LX fares have been lower than fares from GVA with a connection at ZRH.

Personally, I think LX would be best advised to limit GVA services to the few current routes that are likel yprofitable (JFK, DME and possibly LCY/LHR). Doing any more would dilute the competitiveness of the ZRH hub. Although I live in GVA and fly LX frequently, I believe what Swissair did in eliminating almost all GVA flights except JFK and ZRH and a handful of others in the mid-1990s was entirely the right decision.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-09-14 22:56:42 and read 16626 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108):
And from BSL, it is very convenient to use the one-hour train service to ZRH airport which can be booked as LX flight numbers and ticketed like any other LX flight.

Why should someone take a train to ZRH if they have direct flights from BSL? It's exactly what I wanted to say. If Swiss does not have its own flights from BSL, someone else will offer it. If Swiss will stop flights to PRG, BUD, WAW etc. other airlines will arrive here or base more aircraft to serve these routes.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108):
Most of the few LX routes from BSL are also leisure-oriented

They charge CHF1600 for a return trip to BRU...

In general I would not say that BSL is a leisure market. The catchment area of Basel, Mulhouse and Freiburg is still very prosperous and wealthy and generates a lot of good paying passengers (ask LH or have a look how many biz pax they transport to/from BSL).

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: runway23
Posted 2010-09-15 05:20:33 and read 16499 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108):
Personally, I think LX would be best advised to limit GVA services to the few current routes that are likel yprofitable (JFK, DME and possibly LCY/LHR). Doing any more would dilute the competitiveness of the ZRH hub. Although I live in GVA and fly LX frequently, I believe what Swissair did in eliminating almost all GVA flights except JFK and ZRH and a handful of others in the mid-1990s was entirely the right decision.

But at that time SR and LX did not focus on one hub. Remember BSL was a major European hub with Eurocross. In a sense, GVA was only taken off triangular routes and lost some European/African routes. The intention was to keep two hubs, albeit very very near to each other.

Fact is, if LX had grown their fleet by a few aircraft every year in BSL or GVA, they could have had a lot more market share and prevented that foreign airlines get the traffic that should have been theirs.

Also, is the incremental revenue gained by adding an extra shorthaul flight in ZRH that feeds a longhaul one, really going to be more profitable than flying point to point routes from BSL or GVA ? Who knows...

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108):
You make many comments about LX increasing service to GVA. However they can only do that at the expense of ZRH and Switzerland isn't big ienough for 2 hubs. And, apart from LHR/LCY/DME, almost all current LX nonstops from GVA are mainly to leisure destinations and schedules are rarely attractive to business traffic. I believed LX uses those few flights from GVA (often just once a day and not even at consistent times every day) to use surplus capacity. I have flown LX several times GVA-PRG and GVA-BUD and it is almost totally leisure traffic and usually at very low fares (sometimes lower than EasyJet). It is rare to see more than one or two passengers in business class, often none.

BCN is double daily with a pretty good schedule. The rest of the operation is pretty much a skeleton of what it used to be.

Let's not forget that LX has made a number of strategically wrong decisions since 2002:

-Dumping GVA-LCY then going back onto it once they gave away the LHR slots against a 50 million loan, relaunched LCY.
-When they dumped LCY, NCE, BSL, WAW, LUG, AGP, TUN, CMN. All of these routes bar BSL were taken over. In fact WAW is one of LOT's highest yielding routes, whilst axing LUG brought two new players to the market (Baboo and Darwin), the first that LX has had a personal grudge against.
-A demonstrated lack of commitment to the market with a number of routes started/ended and underlined by the fact that growth has come from partners rather than LX.
-More globally, the 2003 period where the airline was a total mess and had no idea what to operate, how and what service to provide.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 109):
In general I would not say that BSL is a leisure market. The catchment area of Basel, Mulhouse and Freiburg is still very prosperous and wealthy and generates a lot of good paying passengers (ask LH or have a look how many biz pax they transport to/from BSL).

The main disadvantage of BSL right now is the lack of rail connection it has. Even the fact of only having two buses an hour is somewhat shocking. A pity, as I'm sure they lose quite a few pax to ZRH because of that.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-15 05:39:24 and read 16473 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 109):
Why should someone take a train to ZRH if they have direct flights from BSL? It's exactly what I wanted to say. If Swiss does not have its own flights from BSL, someone else will offer it.

Agreed.

And on those routes where LX can code-share with a Star Alliance partner airline, commercial risks become even more manageable.

From BSL, I think LX should eye in this decade opening (from 2 or 3-daily):

- BBI
- CPH
- MAD
- FCO
- MXP or LIN
- NCE
- TLS

AMS, BCN, MAN, BUD, PRG and WAW should be stepped up to 2-daily, and LCY and BRU to 3-daily.

LH could also transfer DUS and MUC flights to LX, too.


At GVA, new lines should ideally target (2 to 4-daily):

- AMS
- BBI
- FCO
- MAD
- MAN
- MXP/LIN
- NCE
- ORY (6-8 daily, no more code-share with AF to CDG)
- VCE
- WAW (replacing/complementing LO)

BCN, BUD, DME and PRG could get 1 more daily flight.
And again, LH could transfer some of its flights to LX there. Maybe TP, SK and TK could do that as well.

[Edited 2010-09-15 05:53:33]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dalce
Posted 2010-09-15 06:39:15 and read 16440 times.

BSL-AMS has been cut since May this year. We had 1 daily rotation with AR1, but LX choose to open HAM and shut AMS instead.
Both AMS-BSL and AMS-GVA are served by both KL and Easyjet, so will be tough to re-open.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: UALWN
Posted 2010-09-15 07:44:03 and read 16399 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108):
I have flown LX several times GVA-PRG and GVA-BUD and it is almost totally leisure traffic and usually at very low fares (sometimes lower than EasyJet). It is rare to see more than one or two passengers in business class, often none.

I fly BCN-GVA from time to time, and there seems to be a decent amount of business traffic. I have even used GVA as a connecting point, flying BCN-GVA-JFK a couple of times. The schedule is even better than for BCN-ZRH-JFK (not so on the return leg).

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
BCN is double daily with a pretty good schedule.

Indeed.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-15 08:18:40 and read 16375 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
But at that time SR and LX did not focus on one hub.

Very True.

But the conditions which made BSL a hub for the old LX are no longer met:

- SR and LX were rivals, both on personal and regional grounds. LX now operates pretty much of the former SR goodwill.

- ZRH was not in the European Aviation Area, while BSL (well, MLH) was. ZRH now is, too, pursuant to the 1st set of Bilaterals, save for 8th freedom rights, which are to come by 2012.

- ZRH was way more congested than nowadays. Not only did SR operate more routes there than now, but the timetabling was more dispersed and irregular. LX now operates a more rational hub timetable there, and since SR collapsed, ZRH has seen various infrastructure improvements (Dock E, Airside centre) not to mention those due by late-2011 (New Dock B and Zone D, new centralised safety-checks building).

All this makes me think that BSL won't stand a chance to recover a hub status within the LX network until 2030-2035...

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
In a sense, GVA was only taken off triangular routes and lost some European/African routes.

Agreed as far as Longhaul routes are concerned. European flights at GVA were operated more on a self-contained basis, though. SR also operated some European Transit there.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
The intention was to keep two hubs, albeit very very near to each other.

Not so sure about that. When agreeing to the "New Crossair - Phenix" project, both Moritz Sutter and André Dosé knew that Crossair and BSL would pay a high price to the overall Swiss Aviation survival.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
Fact is, if LX had grown their fleet by a few aircraft every year in BSL or GVA, they could have had a lot more market share and prevented that foreign airlines get the traffic that should have been theirs.

Agreed. But the constant bleeding of the new LX from 2002 until 2005 meant that the prime, vital emergency was to secure ZRH operations first. Had these sunk, we wouldn't be now discussing about developping LX flights at BSL and GVA.

Now that LX prospects look more secure, further expansion at those 2 border airports should be considered, on a point-to-point basis, until ZRH gets really full and not extendable.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
Also, is the incremental revenue gained by adding an extra shorthaul flight in ZRH that feeds a longhaul one, really going to be more profitable than flying point to point routes from BSL or GVA ? Who knows...

Interesting indeed. Stepping frequency on ZRH European routes to 4 daily flights would bring quite many benefits at reasonable marginal costs (as all hubbing-banks would be served), but beyond 4 daily flights (setting aside bigger routes and especialy those operated jointly with LH, BD, OS and SN) at ZRH, the net benefits of further frequency on those European routes would be lower than serving the same destinations from GVA/BSL.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
BCN is double daily with a pretty good schedule. The rest of the operation is pretty much a skeleton of what it used to be.

Yes, more flesh welcome on the bones.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
Dumping GVA-LCY then going back onto it once they gave away the LHR slots against a 50 million loan, relaunched LCY.

Very unfortunate indeed, especially as LCY is way better than LHR on such point-to-point routes.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
When they dumped LCY, NCE, BSL, WAW, LUG, AGP, TUN, CMN. All of these routes bar BSL were taken over. In fact WAW is one of LOT's highest yielding routes, whilst axing LUG brought two new players to the market (Baboo and Darwin), the first that LX has had a personal grudge against.

LCY, NCE, WAW should have never been terminated, but again, LX did not know where it was heading for at that time, sadly. Prospects to join OW may also account for part of the London mess at that time.

TUN and CMN could be interesting routes, but these should perhaps be flown from ZRH first.

LUG was indeed a misinspired decision, and F7 seems to thrive pretty well there. Even after the MEVA railway project is completed, Geneva-Lugano will still take some 4hrs by train.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
-A demonstrated lack of commitment to the market with a number of routes started/ended and underlined by the fact that growth has come from partners rather than LX.

Better have LX partners than nothing at al but EZY or F7.

To transfer to LX some of the GVA and BSL high-frequency flights currently operated by LH, OS, SN could also help sustaining good aircraft utilisation, through a good mix of 2-3 daily flights destinations with other having >6 daily flights.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
-More globally, the 2003 period where the airline was a total mess and had no idea what to operate, how and what service to provide.

Yes, before the drastic cuts came in 2004.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
The main disadvantage of BSL right now is the lack of rail connection it has. Even the fact of only having two buses an hour is somewhat shocking. A pity, as I'm sure they lose quite a few pax to ZRH because of that.

Really annoying, yes.

This notwistanding, the projected rail link will primarily benefit France, and very little Switzerland. What is missing there is a 2nd rail link project, focused on BSL-Switzerland traffic.

Quoting dalce (Reply 112):
BSL-AMS has been cut since May this year. We had 1 daily rotation with AR1, but LX choose to open HAM and shut AMS instead.

Oups, I thought it was the other way round, with AMS replacing HAM. The PDF Summer Timetable of EuroAirport needs some update then  
Quoting dalce (Reply 112):
Both AMS-BSL and AMS-GVA are served by both KL and Easyjet, so will be tough to re-open.

Hard yes, but AMS is a good destination: good catchment area and good mix of Business and Leisure traffic.

EZY isn't always too cheap on both routes, and LX has a better service than them in Y and better in J than on KL. It could be an interesting niche there, especially in view of the growth problems at EZY.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-09-15 09:04:56 and read 16340 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 110):
The main disadvantage of BSL right now is the lack of rail connection it has. Even the fact of only having two buses an hour is somewhat shocking. A pity, as I'm sure they lose quite a few pax to ZRH because of that.

True, without the train station the airport has a disadvantage. But I count 8 busses an hour (less during some times).

The Amsterdam route is a good example. LX had a monopoly on this route for years, even managed to get rid of KLM on the route. What did they do? They stopped almost all flights and left just one flight in the middle of the day. EZS an AF-KL arrived with double daily flights each and LX needed to stop the flights.

Noone is asking for a hub again but they should be able to connect GVA and BSL with some key destinations. That's what they do now and it's good like this.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-15 09:45:52 and read 16307 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 115):
True, without the train station the airport has a disadvantage. But I count 8 busses an hour (less during some times).

8 hourly bus services isn't bad at all, but it often means standing on board for 15min, and walking to a connecting train at Basel SBB.

Travelling to/from France, there is no longer a direct Coach service from Mulhouse. Instead, you have to take a regional train to St-Louis, then transfer to an airport bus. All but ideal, really, especially as Regional rail services (Nancy) Strasburg-Mulhouse-Basle have their own logic, distinct from that of serving MLH/BSL.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 115):
The Amsterdam route is a good example. LX had a monopoly on this route for years, even managed to get rid of KLM on the route. What did they do? They stopped almost all flights and left just one flight in the middle of the day. EZS an AF-KL arrived with double daily flights each and LX needed to stop the flights.

A very good example.

On a route such as BSL-AMS, 2 well-positioned daily flights are a pre-requisite, if not a 3rd flight round noon, so that one can make a quick morning or afternoon return.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 115):
Noone is asking for a hub again but they should be able to connect GVA and BSL with some key destinations. That's what they do now and it's good like this.

It's underway, hopefully. As some European flights at ZRH get upgauged, it might release aircrafts which could be displaced at BSL and GVA to expand operations there.

The FR retreat from BSL 1yr ago may also be good evidence that this airport has and should consider a future outside LCCs.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: knightsofmalta
Posted 2010-09-15 10:40:55 and read 16284 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 115):
The Amsterdam route is a good example. LX had a monopoly on this route for years, even managed to get rid of KLM on the route. What did they do? They stopped almost all flights and left just one flight in the middle of the day. EZS an AF-KL arrived with double daily flights each and LX needed to stop the flights.

Perhaps I haven't understood you correctly, but I think as far as the BSL-AMS route is concerned, the issue is not frequency but simply that there is no room in the market for LX. Easyjet covers all the point to point traffic and AF-KL feed into their AMS hub. LX is stuck in the middle. I don't believe two LX flights would have been a deterrent for AF-KL.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-15 13:43:28 and read 16235 times.

Quoting knightsofmalta (Reply 117):
Easyjet covers all the point to point traffic and AF-KL feed into their AMS hub. LX is stuck in the middle. I don't believe two LX flights would have been a deterrent for AF-KL.

Not so easy indeed, but with 3 daily flights, LX could gain momentum both back from AF/KL (WX) and EZY.

AF serve 3 destinations only from MLH/BSL (ORY/CDG, LYS, AMS), while LX already serves more, even if schedules and frequency should be improved on LX side. What I mean is that LX is already way more home at BSL than AF is at MLH. LX was born there after all and also led there its very first life. Even renamed from Crossair to Swissair, It's deeply rooted in the Basle area.

To AF, the MLH/BSL area has much less weight, particularly if one remembers that the historical carrier connecting MLH with French regions off-Paris was neither AF nor IT, yet IJ.

Should LX step up some existing routes and open some others, the balance would lean further to LX, which would enjoy kinda "mass effect" at BSL.

And LX offers a genuine J class, with opportunities for reasonable fares, in the region of what AF/WX offers in Y+...

I even tend to consider AF prospects at BSL/MLH way more fragile than those of LX there.

Next year, further point-to-point passengers flying MLH-ORY (and some MLH-CDG) will shift to TGV, as Paris-Basle and Paris-Mulhouse rail journeys will be cut down to 3hrs (6-daily) and 2hrs40 (11-daily).

And AF is also likely to lose valuable business and leisure point-to-point traffic on MLH-LYS, as TGV will also cut journey times down to 2hrs45 (6-daily).

In the end, AF will probably have to cut some flights on MLH-ORY, and downgauge others on MLH-ORY/CDG/LYS.
And unevitably, AF will be weaker than it is now at MLH and will probably have to face rising costs.


EZY would be a tougher competitor, but I am pretty sure that among their current passengers flying BSL-AMS, some middle/upper-middle yield ones could shift to LX, especially should LX operate 3-daily flights vs. 2-daily at AF and EZY.

And again, it's one thing to offer return flights for CHF 200 on BSL-AMS-AMS, it's another story to have your operations robust reliable over time.

But I agree that LX should not come back too quickly on BSL-AMS, as other routes would be easier either to expand or introduce. Only once it has strenghtened enough its presence there it ough to strike back on BSL-AMS.

[Edited 2010-09-15 14:42:06]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-09-15 16:09:33 and read 16172 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 109):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108):
Most of the few LX routes from BSL are also leisure-oriented

They charge CHF1600 for a return trip to BRU...

But they also charge less than CHF300 round trip on many flights.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 109):
If Swiss does not have its own flights from BSL, someone else will offer it. If Swiss will stop flights to PRG, BUD, WAW etc. other airlines will arrive here or base more aircraft to serve these routes.

The problem is that most of those other carriers are likely to be LCCs and LX's cost structure can't possibly compete. Everybody is looking for low fares now and on shorthaul flights even business travellers are now using LCCs in large numbers. LX is best advised to focus on longhaul connecting trffic to/from their European network at ZRH, not shorthaul O&D European traffic to/from BSL and GVA where they don't stand a chance of competing with LCCs. Exceptions are niche markets like GVA-LCY and GVA-DME where there's a lot of business demand.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 115):
Noone is asking for a hub again but they should be able to connect GVA and BSL with some key destinations. That's what they do now and it's good like this.

Basel is only 89 km (55 miles) by road from ZRH airport, roughly a 1 hour drive. I expect a high percentage of business travellers from BSL drive to ZRH (or use the very frequent train service) to benefit from the much wider choice of flights from ZRH.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Arzenal
Posted 2010-09-15 16:30:59 and read 16174 times.

I'm flying on Bellinzona in 1hr from ORD to ZRH. Come on smooth flight!
Looks like a nice bird though.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: amigocharlie
Posted 2010-09-16 01:14:44 and read 16119 times.

Ever wanted to visit Airbus? Kuoni Travel is organising a day trip to Toulouse. Travel date is the 27th November 2010. Flight will be with LX (RJ100) from ZRH. Price is rather high... CHF 699.-- Anybody joining?

Details at: http://www.kuoni.ch/DE/inspiration/r...n/Pages/luftfahrtgeschichte-e.aspx

Cheers!

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-09-16 01:56:15 and read 16084 times.

Quoting amigocharlie (Reply 121):
Ever wanted to visit Airbus? Kuoni Travel is organising a day trip to Toulouse. Travel date is the 27th November 2010. Flight will be with LX (RJ100) from ZRH. Price is rather high... CHF 699.-- Anybody joining?

Details at: http://www.kuoni.ch/DE/inspiration/r...n/Pages/luftfahrtgeschichte-e.aspx

Cheers!


Thanks for this info. I am really thinking about booking.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-16 05:33:38 and read 16019 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 119):
But they also charge less than CHF300 round trip on many flights.

It can happen yes.

But I still wonder how long EZY will be able to sustain such low fares at BSL. FR charged more or less the same rates, and could hardly money there, even though FR has a lower costs structure than EZY.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 119):
The problem is that most of those other carriers are likely to be LCCs and LX's cost structure can't possibly compete.

Not necessarily: BA, AF, KL, AZ, IB could nicely fill the gap. LX ha a higher cost structure than EZY, yet lower than SR in its days.


Cities such as Geneva and Basle cannot leave their future aviation links in the hands of LCCs only, it would be foolish to do so.

And apart than EZY/U2, which other low-cost airline could come? AB isn't that low-cost, and I don't think we will ever see FR again in Switzerland. BRN could be more relevant to an LCC such as FR, but its runway is just too short for 738s.

BE already flyes to Switzerland, but it's primarily a (good) niche carrier, and some of its fares are all but low.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 119):
LX is best advised to focus on longhaul connecting trffic to/from their European network at ZRH,

To consolidate and develop the ZRH hub is indeed the vital priority for LX, but the potential on some European routes there is already quite mature.

What I mean here is that there are quite many ZRH-Europe routes where LX offers at least 4 daily flights, meaning that the hub is already wholly fed throughout the day, namely:

- AMS
- BCN
- TXL
- BRU
- CPH (with SK)
- DUS (with LH)
- FRA (with LH)
- HAM (with LH)
- LIS (with TP)
- LCY
- LHR
- MXP
- MUC (with LH)
- NCE
- CDG
- FCO
- ARN (with SK)
- VIE (with OS)
- WAW (with LO)

PRG and BUD have 3 flights ontly to/from ZRH, but given the weakening position of OK and MA, they could quickly sustain a 4th flight.

This should translate into flights between those destinations and BSL/GVA. Some of these routes already exist, but, they are often operated with not so satisfactory frequency and timetables, especially in BSL, meaning that 2-4 daily frequencies should be offered (there are already more on German destinations).

In average, a first batch of some 15 well-served destinations to/from BSL and GVA (BSL-ARN and BSL-CDG not too worth it, while BSL-AMS and GVA-AMS may come only at a later stage). Prety decent to sustain genuine bases in BSL ad GVA.

Once LX has added and filled a 4th daily flight at ZRH to/from MAD, MAN and VCE, then BSL and GVA should also be connected with these.

In the end, some 20 European destinations served by LX (and other Star Aliance Partners) from BSL and GVA.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 119):
Basel is only 89 km (55 miles) by road from ZRH airport, roughly a 1 hour drive. I expect a high percentage of business travellers from BSL drive to ZRH (or use the very frequent train service) to benefit from the much wider choice of flights from ZRH.

This may be enough when competing against LCCs, but hardly effective if other legacies fill the vacuum left at BSL. Not only would LX lose point-to-point traffic there, but its ZRH hub would also suffer in the end, as those airlines could divert transit flows from BSL to the rest of the world, via their own hub at LHR, AMS, MAD, FCO...

Driving through the Bözberg in winter isn't always nice, and the IR hourly service Basel SBB - Zürich Flughafen is a bit lengthy, and offers no frills at all. Some of these trains even run with regional, not mainline stock.

[Edited 2010-09-16 05:48:50]

[Edited 2010-09-16 05:51:22]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: viasa
Posted 2010-09-16 09:58:50 and read 15931 times.

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 122):
Quoting amigocharlie (Reply 121):
Ever wanted to visit Airbus? Kuoni Travel is organising a day trip to Toulouse. Travel date is the 27th November 2010. Flight will be with LX (RJ100) from ZRH. Price is rather high... CHF 699.-- Anybody joining?

Details at: http://www.kuoni.ch/DE/inspiration/r...n/Pages/luftfahrtgeschichte-e.aspx

Cheers!


Thanks for this info. I am really thinking about booking.

That's sounds very cool, but it is too expensive.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Humberside
Posted 2010-09-16 14:33:24 and read 15839 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 123):
Once LX has added and filled a 4th daily flight at ZRH to/from MAD, MAN and VCE, then BSL and GVA should also be connected with these.

LX already fly MAN-BSL year round, and in winter they also have a weekly MAN-GVA

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-16 17:06:35 and read 15808 times.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 125):
LX already fly MAN-BSL year round, and in winter they also have a weekly MAN-GVA

MAN-BSL is indeed operated all year-round, but on a 4-weekly basis.

MAN-GVA is just 2-weekly Ski line.

Almost nonexistent, compared to the 2-3 daily flights which one should ideally see there.

10 yrs ago, LX flew BSL-MAN 3-daily, with a ER4.

The balance isn't wholly negative though, as there were no GVA-MAN flights, while ZRH-MAN had 2 flights (SR, operted by defunct B5 with a 146-300) instead of the current 3.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ka
Posted 2010-09-22 09:47:08 and read 15629 times.

LX to receive 5 more A333, 2 A321 and 2 A320 from 2012 on!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oves-groups-48-aircraft-order.html

Great news...
KA.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: HECA
Posted 2010-09-22 10:13:04 and read 15596 times.

Quoting ka (Reply 127):
LX to receive 5 more A333, 2 A321 and 2 A320 from 2012 on!

Wow, fantastic! Which routes will be opened with these new aircraft? Will be particularly interesting to see how LX develops its longhaul network even further!

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-09-22 10:30:20 and read 15575 times.

Quoting ka (Reply 127):
LX to receive 5 more A333, 2 A321 and 2 A320 from 2012 on!

What a surprise. What do these 5 A 333 mean? Growth of the long-haul fleet to 30 frames, replacement of some 343 or a mixture?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-22 10:52:50 and read 15555 times.

Just great news  

Let's hope the 5 333s will at least replace the 343s on YUL, BOS and MIA, and the 738 on EWR. The 343s could then be cascaded somewhere else. Then there should still be 1-2 333s available.

The 2 A320 + 2A321 ordered also denote some kind of upgauge.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-09-22 12:38:26 and read 15429 times.

Quoting ka (Reply 127):
LX to receive 5 more A333, 2 A321 and 2 A320 from 2012 on!

Lovely... might we ever see an LX A330 going to LHR or MUC as early morning flights have been in the 90ies with SR?

Sure there will be some nice re-openings of routes our additional flights on already existing routes. Cooool!!!!  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-09-22 13:13:24 and read 15407 times.

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 129):

What a surprise. What do these 5 A 333 mean? Growth of the long-haul fleet to 30 frames, replacement of some 343 or a mixture?

The ex Air Canada and Austrian Airlines A343's are over 10 years old, however given that they are receiving the 2nd seat upgrade, at least in Business Class in 2 years, we will definetly see them around for longer and before LH will not replace their A343's with new planes SWISS will not do so either. Regarding new routes for those planes, I am pretty sure as well that ZRH-EWR will be one of them and possibly the Privatair BBJ will be deployed on a night flight from ZRH to the Gulf such as DXB.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-22 15:42:01 and read 15307 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 132):
Regarding new routes for those planes, I am pretty sure as well that ZRH-EWR will be one of them

Sounds very credible indeed. It would enhance capacity, product consistency and connections with CO.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 132):
and possibly the Privatair BBJ will be deployed on a night flight from ZRH to the Gulf such as DXB.

I don't believe the 738 will fly on ZRH-DXB, it wouldn't just fit with the current daily 333.

A 2nd daily flight with a 333 on ZRH-DXB may come, yet not too soon, though.


The 738 could fly ZRH-BAH, in the same way as LH operates FRA-BAH this way.

Bahrain is in itself a mini-Dubai, and GF recent network cuts may certainly open more opportunities to some European carriers, especially as there are no longer Bahrain-Switzerland flights.


Personally, I think a 3-class 321-200 or 321-NEO would be more appropriate on this kind of route, but the 738 could be a good start-up.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-09-23 14:44:23 and read 15044 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 133):
I don't believe the 738 will fly on ZRH-DXB, it wouldn't just fit with the current daily 333.

In case LX decides to continue using the BBJ a seat upgrade will be very necesary + a instalation of a proper AVOD IFE system.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: nyswiss
Posted 2010-09-23 14:51:34 and read 15040 times.

Great News !!!

Sandro or any other of you with an inside view, can you spill the beans....?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-24 04:53:40 and read 14882 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 134):
In case LX decides to continue using the BBJ a seat upgrade will be very necesary + a instalation of a proper AVOD IFE system.

.

That's indeed an almost absolute requirement. The new J seats of LX may however pre-empt a bit too much room in a narrow-body aircraft, but flatbeds as used in BA City 318s would be credible.

Where I see a problem is here:

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 132):
possibly the Privatair BBJ will be deployed on a night flight from ZRH to the Gulf such as DXB.

If you want a night return ZRH-DXB-ZRH with a short turn-around at DXB (1hr), it s likely to be leaving ZRH round 20.30 and to be back there at 10.30 in the next morning, and there I see a few issues:

- the Inbound flight will overlap with the 333, flying 4hrs earlier only

- the Outbound flight will nicely fit into the 4th daily bank at ZRH, but the Inbound flight will arrive to late to fit into the 1st bank, and quite ahead of the 2nd bank.

- arriving at DXB at 5.30 is OK, but leaving from there at 6.30 might be a little too early.


Better have a 2nd daily 333 on ZRH-DXB, flying at night Outbound (22.00-07.00) and at noon Inbound (12.00-16.00)

I don't see this coming until a few years, as Dubai's recovery will take some time, but once it's there for good, it could work, especially if LX offers more European connection opportunities at ZRH.

ZRH-BAH would be more relevant and workable for a 738 night-return, as the loop would take 12hrs instead of 14hrs on ZRH-DXB-ZRH, meaning that the Inbound flight would fit into the 1st bank at ZRH.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-09-26 05:51:50 and read 14505 times.

For those who can read German, an article in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung about the new Airbus aircrafts:
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/wirtsc...auf_neuer_flughoehe_1.7687826.html

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: nyswiss
Posted 2010-09-26 11:27:08 and read 14321 times.

So after the good news regarding long-distance, would you think it would be an option for LX to align with Baboo (which has ordered 10 E190's), thereby instantly gaining marketshare in GVA and simulataneously beeing able to expand the Zurich hub with the additional planes. Would be interested in your thoughts

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-09-26 14:20:06 and read 14176 times.

Quoting nyswiss (Reply 138):
So after the good news regarding long-distance, would you think it would be an option for LX to align with Baboo (which has ordered 10 E190's), thereby instantly gaining marketshare in GVA and simulataneously beeing able to expand the Zurich hub with the additional planes. Would be interested in your thoughts

SWISS has ordered the Bombardier C series which will replace all the Avro aircraft from 2014 onwards!

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 137):
For those who can read German, an article in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung about the new Airbus aircrafts:

Acording to the article LX will add probably 2 more long haul destinations with the 5 ordered A333's. If this is the case my guess is that one will be used to fly ZRH-EWR to replace the BBJ + 2 aircraft for 2 new destinations and the remianing 2 aircraft will be used to increase frequencies on the exisitng long haul fleet.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-26 16:00:44 and read 14116 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 137):
For those who can read German, an article in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung about the new Airbus aircrafts:
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/wirtsc....html

Thanks, really interesting  
Quoting nyswiss (Reply 138):
would you think it would be an option for LX to align with Baboo (which has ordered 10 E190's), thereby instantly gaining marketshare in GVA

It could, depending on the price to be paid to get F7. If AF wants F7, then LX may make a counter-offer, but there is a risk that it will be overpaid.

Thorough restructuring would be required, given the financial situation of FlyBaboo.

Quoting nyswiss (Reply 138):
simulataneously beeing able to expand the Zurich hub with the additional planes

The E-190 wouldn't fit too much in the current LX fleet. LX would have to got for 10 more C-100 instead.

Short-term additional European fleet requirements of LX, besides fresh new orders, could be met in part with AR1/AR8 from SN and CL, and 319-320-321 of BD, SK and OS, if surplus.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-09-27 10:37:58 and read 13919 times.

An aviation expert predicts for the SWISS long-haul fleet up to 50 frames:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...0-Maschinen-steigen/story/11926936 (in German)

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-09-27 11:20:34 and read 13883 times.

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 137):
For those who can read German, an article in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung about the new Airbus aircrafts:
Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 141):
An aviation expert predicts for the SWISS long-haul fleet up to 50 frames:

Did anyone read the Leser-Kommentare of one of the readers at the bottom? Some people need to be slapped. 

Funny how 10 years ago these experts were predicting the all doom and gloom for the Swiss aviation market, especially the long-haul sector.

Is ZRH even in the position capacity-wise of handling 50 LX long-haul aircraft incl. the existing/future additional service from other airlines?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-27 11:41:10 and read 13859 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 141):
An aviation expert predicts for the SWISS long-haul fleet up to 50 frames:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...0-Maschinen-steigen/story/11926936 (in German)

Thanks a lot.  

Quite visionary, but really nice to read.

50 longhaul frames would be substantially above the 36 of SR in 2001.

In the end it would mean loads of destinations and extra flights. While Australia might be a little too much of a dream, the Far East, North America and Africa would certainly be the main drivers for such fleet expansion.

Among the future longhaul aircrafts of LX, any chance that their would be something else than 333, 359 and 351?

If you add the current plans for the shorthaul flights, assumming that LX confirms its 30 C10 options, LX would end up with 150 farmes by the end of this decade, almost as many aircrafts as Swissair+Crossair in 2001, with some appreciable upgauges. (332 ---> 333, M11 ---> 359/351, 142/AR8/S20/ER4 ---> C10).

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-09-27 12:28:10 and read 13808 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 142):
Did anyone read the Leser-Kommentare of one of the readers at the bottom? Some people need to be slapped.

You are right. I try to post an answer to this silly statement of Fred Büchi. I hope they bring it, I have to wait till the news paper people decide. I want to answer him that aviation is a very efficient public transport. Noise only close to the airport, train and cars spread it everywhere. More energy efficient than cars.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: runway23
Posted 2010-09-29 03:09:36 and read 13528 times.

Apparently Swiss will have a press conference this afternoon in Geneva and will announce an extra aircraft being based. No news if this is to replace the BD aircraft or additional growth.

If it is additional growth, wonder whether LX may decide to reopen a crew base in GVA ?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-09-29 04:03:52 and read 13475 times.

Hello will soon take delivery of their first A320. It is currently in maintenance at Manila Airport:

http://www.hello.ch/index.php?eID=tx...5=2db71cbafc7dcc36a5d07f4ff9b147ce

On another note Cimber Sterling will inaugurate a new route from Copenhagen to Zurich on a daily basis with B737-700.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-29 05:16:18 and read 13406 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 145):
Apparently Swiss will have a press conference this afternoon in Geneva and will announce an extra aircraft being based.

Good news  
Quoting runway23 (Reply 145):
If it is additional growth, wonder whether LX may decide to reopen a crew base in GVA ?

Possibly, but perhaps LX should wait until it operates a bit more flights there.

Currently, LX flies with its own metal on 8 European destinations on a daily basis (+2 on at weekends), with 27 daily flights on those 8 main routes, ZRH-GVA accounting for 1/3 of that figure. Re-instating FCO and NCE (both 3 daily) and PAR (ORY rather than CDG, 6-8 daily) would make the re-instatement of a genuine LX base at GVA easier I believe.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-29 05:17:55 and read 13424 times.

Other good news: Swiss is to enhance its catering in Economy class, both on European and Intercontinental flights  

See http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/about_sw...ss_releases/Pages/pr_20100929.aspx

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: runway23
Posted 2010-09-29 05:23:27 and read 13409 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 148):
Other good news: Swiss is to enhance its catering in Economy class, both on European and Intercontinental flights

See http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/about_sw....aspx

I'm not sure whether this is good news. It doesn't mention what will happen on longer flights eg. IST, ATH, etc... Are they condemned to the same sandwich you would get going to say VIE ?

The current offerings ranged from average to poor and were full of additives.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-09-29 05:49:27 and read 13377 times.

Just witnessed a nice sight about 30 minutes ago, when I saw four F-18s flying by in formation on my way home on the highway to Bülach. 

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: AntonovA330
Posted 2010-09-29 06:43:21 and read 13327 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 150):

Must have had to do with the army exercise "Aeroporto 2010", which (I think) finished today. Maybe it was also just a "welcome home and drive safely" message for you  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dens
Posted 2010-09-29 10:47:01 and read 13301 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 145):
Apparently Swiss will have a press conference this afternoon in Geneva and will announce an extra aircraft being based. No news if this is to replace the BD aircraft or additional growth.

Swiss just announced a new route from Geneva. As of December 17th, Madrid will be linked from GVA twice a day. I saw an interview from Swiss CEO on TV now but cannot find anything on swiss.com.
Any idea of the aircraft? A319 or Avro?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: runway23
Posted 2010-09-29 10:54:29 and read 13289 times.

Swiss will add an extra Airbus A320 (bringing the number of based aircraft up to 8) in Geneva from December 17th and fly two daily flights to Madrid and add an extra 3rd daily flight to Barcelona.

Harry Hohmeister said "We want to invest in a profitable market that surpassed our expectations and consolidate our position is n° 2 in Geneva ... In 2010 we invested more resources in Geneva than anywhere else."

Swiss will transport more than 1 million passengers through Geneva in 2010 for about 30 % market share. They hope to increase this to 40% within the next two years. Comparatively they have less than 10% in Basel and more than 50% in Zurich. Geneva accounts for 10% of the airline's revenue.

We will have to see what the future holds for the airline, especially if Baboo go bust tomorrow (according to some rumors).

My personal guess is with time we might see NCE, FCO, CDG/ORY return, plus opportunities depending on Baboo. An additional frequency to DME is on the wish list but obviously blocked by the bilaterals.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-09-29 11:56:21 and read 13218 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 153):
Swiss will transport more than 1 million passengers through Geneva in 2010 for about 30 % market share.

So 1 million out of 11 million total annual passengers at GVA equals for a 30% market share?!

Nice sign to see LX go head to head with two very established companies in the market, IB and U2. Shows that they currently have a lot of confidence in their product. However I don't see why they didn't base the plane at ZRH to expand their hub network. Instead they use scarce ressources at an airport they can serve well with its multiple daily flights to ZRH. At one time they will need to expand their European network at ZRH in order to fill these extra intercontinental flights.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-09-29 12:14:40 and read 13195 times.

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 141):
An aviation expert predicts for the SWISS long-haul fleet up to 50 frames:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...0-Maschinen-steigen/story/11926936 (in German)

That "expert" stated that SWISS wi

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 154):
So 1 million out of 11 million total annual passengers at GVA equals for a 30% market share?!

Nice sign to see LX go head to head with two very established companies in the market, IB and U2. Shows that they currently have a lot of confidence in their product. However I don't see why they didn't base the plane at ZRH to expand their hub network. Instead they use scarce ressources at an airport they can serve well with its multiple daily flights to ZRH. At one time they will need to expand their European network at ZRH in order to fill these extra intercontinental flights.

Generally the goal for SWISS needs to be to strenghten their hub at ZRH, however if they add once in a while a european destination to GVA which has strong enough O&D demand that's fine. I am pretty sure that most of the other short haul planes LX has ordered which will join the fleet in the next years will be based in ZRH.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dens
Posted 2010-09-29 12:26:51 and read 13172 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 155):
however if they add once in a while a european destination to GVA which has strong enough O&D demand that's fine

GVA airport sees more and more transit passengers (altough it's not a hub). This is due to the fact that Star Alliance is expanding well in GVA (UA and AC new since 2009, TK doubled the number of flights, ...) This generate more transit passengers.
I flew in August to YUL on AC from GVA and there was quite a lot passengers which were in transit from BCN, LCY, IST, BEY.
All major European airlines (AF, KL, LH, BA, ...) consider GVA as a strong market. LX lost a lot of market in GVA in the last years and can't afford to loose more.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: runway23
Posted 2010-09-29 12:32:10 and read 13181 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 154):
Nice sign to see LX go head to head with two very established companies in the market, IB and U2. Shows that they currently have a lot of confidence in their product. However I don't see why they didn't base the plane at ZRH to expand their hub network. Instead they use scarce ressources at an airport they can serve well with its multiple daily flights to ZRH. At one time they will need to expand their European network at ZRH in order to fill these extra intercontinental flights.

LX has been pretty aggressive with new routes from GVA recently. LHR, BUD, PRG, IST were all launched against at least two other airlines. GVA-IST failing mainly due to the poor scheduling of flight.

I think LX can still grow GVA by a few more frames and I'm sure they are the airline that has the most to win if Baboo goes under (fairly similar customer base and products).

As I said in a previous thread, you have to take into account the balance between how profitable a connecting passenger is vs. O&D traffic from GVA. I think some of the routes that in the past were unprofitable (or cut due to focusing on ZRH) can be profitable thanks to star alliance feed. Let's not forget that LX missed out on quite a bit of growth potential out of GVA, there's no reason they cannot bring and profit from growth in Geneva whilst growing their ZRH hub.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-29 14:17:26 and read 13102 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 153):
Swiss will add an extra Airbus A320 (bringing the number of based aircraft up to 8) in Geneva from December 17th and fly two daily flights to Madrid and add an extra 3rd daily flight to Barcelona.

Very, very good news. Especially as Spain still suffers from the GFC, and as IB and U2 are already there.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 153):
My personal guess is with time we might see NCE, FCO, CDG/ORY return, plus opportunities depending on Baboo.

Agreed.

ORY would make more sense than CDG for point-to-point traffic, and would offset the time-savings which HSR will get in December on Geneva-Paris.

BER/BBI, VCE and MAN may also come at a later stage. LH may also decide to transfer some of its GVA flights to LX.

AMS would be good, too, although KL and U2 are already there.

LIS, OPO, BRU, CPH, ARN, WAW, IST, VIE could come, yet probably at the expense of other Star partners.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 154):
Nice sign to see LX go head to head with two very established companies in the market, IB and U2.

Yes, a big sign of confidence.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 155):
Generally the goal for SWISS needs to be to strenghten their hub at ZRH, however if they add once in a while a european destination to GVA which has strong enough O&D demand that's fine.

Yes, it would be foolish to leave lucrative markets in GVA to competitors.

Quoting dens (Reply 156):
This is due to the fact that Star Alliance is expanding well in GVA (UA and AC new since 2009, TK doubled the number of flights, ...)

SQ might come back to GVA with a 789 (it used to be with a 313 via BAH), and we may also see a 788 of AI there, too.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 157):
I think some of the routes that in the past were unprofitable (or cut due to focusing on ZRH) can be profitable thanks to star alliance feed.

Yes, and also thanks to the lower cost base of LX than that of SR.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-09-29 14:49:35 and read 13077 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 158):
SQ might come back to GVA with a 789 (it used to be with a 313 via BAH)

I can't recall SQ serving GVA. When was that?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-29 15:49:21 and read 13050 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 159):
I can't recall SQ serving GVA. When was that?

Something like mid-80s to the mid-90s.

Or perhaps I am confusing with BRU... Hard to remember, really Sad

[Edited 2010-09-29 15:56:16]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-09-30 08:02:31 and read 12901 times.

Quoting dens (Reply 152):
Swiss just announced a new route from Geneva. As of December 17th, Madrid will be linked from GVA twice a day. I saw an interview from Swiss CEO on TV now but cannot find anything on swiss.com.
Any idea of the aircraft? A319 or Avro?

A320  

See here (in French only, English version not available):

http://www.gva.ch/en/DesktopDefault....d-11/2_read-8055/usetemplate-news/


Here you can really feel the difference from the Summer 2001 Timetable to the Winter 2010/2011 Timetable:

GVA-BCN: 2 daily flights (AR1, SR/LX operated by Crossair) ---> 3 daily flights (320, Swiss)

GVA-MAD: 1 daily flight (ER4, SR/LX operated by Crossair) ---> 2 daily flights (320, Swiss)

Keep going, Swiss  Smile


On top of the 2+2 320 and 321s which Swiss has just ordered, I am pretty sure that we may see more shorthaul frames before the very first C10 is delivered.


Any idea whether more european flights are soon to be announced at ZRH?

[Edited 2010-09-30 08:12:39]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-09-30 22:45:44 and read 12716 times.

Vim Airlines starts a weekly flight Moscow to Basel as per January 2 until the end of winter season.

NN867/NN868 operates on Saturdays, later on Sundays, aircraft will be B-757-200. The flight is not only for tourists and can be booked as a scheduled flight.

Also we forgot to mention that Skywork Airlines has announced new routes from Berne to Brussels (4 flights a week) and from Brussels to Angers, with the Dornier-328.

For Baboo it seems they have just ended the contracts with tour operators. So they will not operate the charter flights in winter?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-10-01 15:25:31 and read 12462 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 160):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 159):
I can't recall SQ serving GVA. When was that?

Something like mid-80s to the mid-90s.

Or perhaps I am confusing with BRU... Hard to remember, really

I am almost certain SQ has never served GVA.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-01 15:37:48 and read 12462 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 163):
I am almost certain SQ has never served GVA.

It was BRU, sorry    

Now is there a chance SQ may send a 789 to GVA?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: AntonovA330
Posted 2010-10-02 01:50:11 and read 12384 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 148):

And this is how the "new" sandwiches look like:

http://imnews.touristikpresse.net/30...neuheiten-in-der-Economy-Class.jpg

Appetizing look, much more yummy than these pre-packaged ones. Can somebody confirm?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-02 03:36:12 and read 12345 times.

Quoting AntonovA330 (Reply 165):
And this is how the "new" sandwiches look like:

http://imnews.touristikpresse.net/30...neuheiten-in-der-Economy-Class.jpg

Appetizing look, much more yummy than these pre-packaged ones. Can somebody confirm?

Thanks, it looks good.   

Interestingly, LX is upgrading its catering in shorthaul Y, while BA, AF and LH (to a lesser extend) have conversely gone for cuts.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-10-02 05:35:17 and read 12260 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 166):

Thanks, it looks good.

Interestingly, LX is upgrading its catering in shorthaul Y, while BA, AF and LH (to a lesser extend) have conversely gone for cuts.

I want call it upgrading, it's more like bringing back the quality standards to the short haul economy product of the last days of SR and early stages of LX. But good to see those nice sandwiches back, I would thought that Gate Gourmet is making them as in the past however SWISS writes somethign about a "local Backery???

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: sandroZRH
Posted 2010-10-02 06:22:05 and read 12229 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 167):
I would thought that Gate Gourmet is making them as in the past however SWISS writes somethign about a "local Backery???

They have probably been designed(I really can't think of a better word) by a local bakery a la "a taste of switzerland", or they are made by a large bakery company such as hiestand.

We had the chance to try the new offerings a few weeks ago at the OPS and I was pleasantly surprised.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-02 06:38:31 and read 12230 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 167):
I want call it upgrading, it's more like bringing back the quality standards to the short haul economy product of the last days of SR and early stages of LX.

Yes, it seems that day after day, the Old SR is further reviving through the New LX, making the Phoenix concept more meaningful than ever.


This being said, would there be a case for a no-frills Y- class on LX European flights?
Something like:

- internet distribution only
- 15 kg checked-in luggage allowance
- no complimentary luggage insurance
- unstaffed check-in options only
- complimentary soft drinks only (with the opportunity to buy Y+ complimentary catering)
- 125-250 miles per segment only


As a counterpart, a would-be Y+ could include:

- all distribution channels available
- 23-25kg checked-in luggage allowance
- all check-in options available (staffed and unstaffed)
- fast track for security checks
- more elaborate complimentary catering (mealbox)
- complimentary newspaper
- 1000-1250 miles per segment

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-10-03 05:30:01 and read 12033 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 169):

This being said, would there be a case for a no-frills Y- class on LX European flights?
Something like:

- internet distribution only
- 15 kg checked-in luggage allowance
- no complimentary luggage insurance
- unstaffed check-in options only
- complimentary soft drinks only (with the opportunity to buy Y complimentary catering)
- 125-250 miles per segment only


As a counterpart, a would-be Y could include:

- all distribution channels available
- 23-25kg checked-in luggage allowance
- all check-in options available (staffed and unstaffed)
- fast track for security checks
- more elaborate complimentary catering (mealbox)
- complimentary newspaper
- 1000-1250 miles per segment

SWISS presents itself as a premium airline and with the low cost competition LX should not go into the low cost segment as this is the difference between a low cost and a premium airline, you expect to get a slightly better seat pitch, some free nacks etc. As we all remember when LX went into that low cost direction, they very quickly stoped that experiment again. Further the Y+ on european flights is also not necessary, for this you have Y and B class flex booking categories . Most passengers that need flex tickets probably anyway fly Business, otherwise if they fly economy most are anyway business men who are status members and they can get their newspapers in the lounge and more than some hand luggage and a small suitcase they don't take anyway

[Edited 2010-10-03 05:32:42]

[Edited 2010-10-03 05:35:00]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-10-03 13:13:38 and read 11864 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 169):
This being said, would there be a case for a no-frills Y- class on LX European flights?
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 169):
This being said, would there be a case for a no-frills Y- class on LX European flights?
Something like:

- internet distribution only
- 15 kg checked-in luggage allowance
- no complimentary luggage insurance
- unstaffed check-in options only
- complimentary soft drinks only (with the opportunity to buy Y+ complimentary catering)
- 125-250 miles per segment only


As a counterpart, a would-be Y+ could include:

- all distribution channels available
- 23-25kg checked-in luggage allowance
- all check-in options available (staffed and unstaffed)
- fast track for security checks
- more elaborate complimentary catering (mealbox)
- complimentary newspaper
- 1000-1250 miles per segment

Much too complicated for short flights. And LX don't want to repeat their big mistake of a few years ago when they went to buy-on- board catering in Y class which was totally contrary to their image as a premium carrier. A high percentage of their passengers on European flights are connecting at ZRH to/from longhaul LX flights and they couldn't understand why they had to pay for an inedible sandwich on the European sector. They also often ran out of catering supplies which made passengers even less happy.

Their current European product is fine. And if you want more than 125 miles per sector you can easily book a higher fare.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-03 16:54:25 and read 11768 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 170):
SWISS presents itself as a premium airline and with the low cost competition LX should not go into the low cost segment as this is the difference between a low cost and a premium airline, you expect to get a slightly better seat pitch, some free nacks etc. As

Even with less frills in Y-, such product would remain superior to that of U2/EZS:

- operations to/from central airports. While U2/EZS operates on more central airports, it is hardly visible in ZRH, and ignores LHR and LCY, as well as quite many major routes.

- point-to-point as well as hub travel options (through ticketing, one-off check-in)

- Alliance membership, with related benefits

- FFP eligibility

- no credit card fees

- assigned seating

- complimentary 15kg checked-in luggage allowance (extra luggage insurance available for a fee, but most credit cards already include such insurance) (for passengers connecting with/from a longhaul flight, the allowance would remain at 20kg, with complimentary insurance)

- rail-and-fly service to/from many Swiss railway stations

- complimentary soft drinks and refreshments

- better treatement in case of service disruption

- better timetable robustness

If you can offer all that while being able to cut your current fares by EUR 20-30 per single journey, you may have a stronger position against U2/EZS.


Quoting LXA340 (Reply 170):
Further the Y+ on european flights is also not necessary, for this you have Y and B class flex booking categories .
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 171):
And if you want more than 125 miles per sector you can easily book a higher fare.

Y and B classes would actually be Y+ in that scheme.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 170):
Most passengers that need flex tickets probably anyway fly Business,

No, especially on shorter European flights. Y+ class would better attend the needs of such custom.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 170):
otherwise if they fly economy most are anyway business men who are status members and they can get their newspapers in the lounge and more than some hand luggage and a small suitcase they don't take anyway

On a short European business trip, typically within one single day, time constraints often mean that you are unlikely to enjoy the lounge. Conversely, shorter check-in limits and availability of fast tracks for security checks will make a difference.

Those passengers would also enjoy various improvements from the current Y product, if flying Y+:

- better, more substantial catering

- dedicated cabin (moving curtain)

- better availability of staffed booking and check-in options

- higher luggage allowance with higher priority status at reclaim (not so decisive for short business trips, yet better than nothing)

- higher priority when boarding and disembarking

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 171):
Much too complicated for short flights.

AF, SK and SN offer 3 classes on European flights, and its seems to work.

JK has recently backpedalled ,conversely, while LH has fully replaced SN on Belgium-Germany flights. It seems that Y+ isn't as popular at Star Alliance as it is at OW and Skyteam.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 170):
As we all remember when LX went into that low cost direction, they very quickly stoped that experiment again.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 171):
And LX don't want to repeat their big mistake of a few years ago when they went to buy-on- board catering in Y class which was totally contrary to their image as a premium carrier.

Yes, I remember very well this unfortunate and ill-minded move in a desperate hurry. But at that time, LX didn't know where it was heading to and was struggling for survival. Circumstances are quite different now, thankfully.

One other big difference is that LX downgraded at that time the whole of its Y European product, without introducing a Y+ class.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 171):
A high percentage of their passengers on European flights are connecting at ZRH to/from longhaul LX flights

Agreed. For these, there should thence be Y+ available on longhaul flights.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 171):
they couldn't understand why they had to pay for an inedible sandwich on the European sector.

Here they wouln't get any sandwich for sure, but they would still have complimentary soft drinks and refreshments

Quite many people no longer understand the need to get a sandwich on a 1-2hr flight in Europe, either  
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 171):
Their current European product is fine.

It's fine and even quite above the European Legacies average at this moment, especially considering the recent and current catering upgrades. However, market demand might be better attended in the long run by splitting Y class into 2 classes, and possibly by upgrading some of the features of C class.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-10-04 11:56:03 and read 11583 times.

While a Y+ concept is indeed an interesting one, I don't think LX needs to jump on that bandwagon, since at the moment they've proven to be just as competitive without it.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 172):
availability of fast tracks for security checks will make a difference.

Priority lanes for First and Business Class passengers already exist and can barely cope with the capacity at certain times of the day. Allowing additional passengers in the form of Y+ customers to use these lanes would just worsen an already bad situation.

ZRH's security (and passport) checkpoints at the moment as a whole are a disgrace and something needs to be done fast to improve this seemingly hopeless situation. The lines that occur at certain times of the day are ridiculous and totally unacceptable for an airport with the reputation of ZRH. Oh, and don't even get me started on the unfriendly, inefficient and unmotivated staff that work there...

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-10-04 12:11:46 and read 11575 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 172):

The ideas are very nice...but as we are in the world of cost cutting, the concept would be at the end to complicated and too costly.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 173):
ZRH's security (and passport) checkpoints at the moment as a whole are a disgrace and something needs to be done fast to improve this seemingly hopeless situation. The lines that occur at certain times of the day are ridiculous and totally unacceptable for an airport with the reputation of ZRH. Oh, and don't even get me started on the unfriendly, inefficient and unmotivated staff that work there...

It's really so unbelivable! looking at the whole construction of the passport controls down at the Skymetro station I somethimes ask myself if enough thought was put into it. Furthermore it would already help to have all counters open during peak hours.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-10-04 12:31:36 and read 11559 times.

There will soon be a centralized security checkpoint which will certainly be more customer friendly than the ceckpoints today that are spread out within the entire airport.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-10-04 12:45:59 and read 11539 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 173):
ZRH's security (and passport) checkpoints at the moment as a whole are a disgrace and something needs to be done fast to improve this seemingly hopeless situation. The lines that occur at certain times of the day are ridiculous and totally unacceptable for an airport with the reputation of ZRH. Oh, and don't even get me started on the unfriendly, inefficient and unmotivated staff that work there.

Regarding security it is about to happen. They are building a central security building where you go through before entering the Airside-Center.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-10-04 13:19:44 and read 11582 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 174):
It's really so unbelivable! looking at the whole construction of the passport controls down at the Skymetro station I somethimes ask myself if enough thought was put into it. Furthermore it would already help to have all counters open during peak hours.

IMO, when the Airside-Center and Gates E area were designed, more weight was put into trying to make them look aesthetically pleasing instead of functionality. The other day the line was so long, there were people queing up at the Airside-Center...  
Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 175):
There will soon be a centralized security checkpoint which will certainly be more customer friendly than the ceckpoints today that are spread out within the entire airport.
Quoting ZRH (Reply 176):
Regarding security it is about to happen. They are building a central security building where you go through before entering the Airside-Center.

I've read about this project and I wonder how it will play out. It can only be better than the concept they have at the moment.   Does this mean that transit pax won't have to clear security anymore at all? If so, then this will indeed be a huge improvement.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-10-04 13:29:33 and read 11566 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 177):
I've read about this project and I wonder how it will play out. It can only be better than the concept they have at the moment.   Does this mean that transit pax won't have to clear security anymore at all? If so, then this will indeed be a huge improvement.

Only transit pax from Schengen to Schengen won't have a security check. But pax from non-Schengen countries of course still will have (this is compulsary by Schengen law). For those pax there will be a special security. The central security is only for o-pax.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-10-04 13:33:54 and read 11566 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 172):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 171):
Much too complicated for short flights.

AF, SK and SN offer 3 classes on European flights, and its seems to work.

It still complicates service and adds costs. LX's current Y class service is all anyone expects on short flights. I highly doubt that LX is losing traffic due to their European product which in my experience is at least as good and usually better than other carriers.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-10-05 02:16:55 and read 11429 times.

Brief article on flight about Sky Work Airlines expansion plans.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...k-cseries-ideal-for-expansion.html

In the long run they plan to become Switzerland's second airline by expanding their fleet with C-Series aircraft and adding destinations such as the Canary Islands. In the meantime they will unveil a new corporate identity, add another Q400 aircraft and are looking into leasing two A319 or 737-700 in order to operate longer flights out of Bern airport.

Sounds very ambitious, but I hope they get their act together and don't expand too quickly. They should take an example on Baboo which in my opinion has all but failed.

The article also contains a small mistake, as they write that the runway in BRN is only 1350 meters long. Since 2008 its length is 1730 meters and there is a charter service operated by HHI every winter since with Airbus 319.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-05 02:42:42 and read 11412 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 180):
Sounds very ambitious, but I hope they get their act together and don't expand too quickly. They should take an example on Baboo which in my opinion has all but failed.

Sounds impressive indeed  Wow!

Any chance we may seen BRN-LUG (FCO?) flying again? or something like LUG-BRN-LCY, BRN-BSL-BER?

AF is doing really well on BRN-ORY by the way.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 180):
The article also contains a small mistake, as they write that the runway in BRN is only 1350 meters long. Since 2008 its length is 1730 meters and there is a charter service operated by HHI every winter since with Airbus 319.

Any chance we may see some 738 of FR at BRN?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: UALWN
Posted 2010-10-05 02:57:31 and read 11404 times.

Quoting AntonovA330 (Reply 165):
Appetizing look, much more yummy than these pre-packaged ones. Can somebody confirm?

I tried it last week-end on GVA-BCN.    Bread was so hard it was basically inedible. It may have been an accident...

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-10-05 03:10:15 and read 11389 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 181):
Any chance we may seen BRN-LUG (FCO?) flying again? or something like LUG-BRN-LCY, BRN-BSL-BER?

These routes were operated for some time by Darwin Airlines but without much success. The tag-on flight BRN-LUG had very very light loads. A double daily flight BRN-London could do well, but not with a flight to Lugano.

Berlin will be their next destination starting in December with three weekly flights on the Q400. They will also serve Hamburg with twice weekly service. I expect them to increase service to these destinations next summer when we'll probably see another Q400 in the Skywork livery. They might also increase Barcelona to daily flights since this flight has become very successful.

Ryanair will not serve BRN. On one hand the runway is not long enough to ensure reliable operations on the 738 and on the other hand the airport company has mentioned that it will not give any discounts to LCC intending to serve BRN. There have been rumours flying around that Easyjet was looking into adding flights.

A problem that needs to be solved from the airport authority is the scarce parking space next to the terminal. At this time they can't fit much more than a A319, a Q400 and a D328 at the same time on the tarmac. This situation worsens in winter time when there are a lot of larger biz jets such as Gulfstream G5 or GlobalEx parked in BRN. They will address this problem by moving the general aviation to the other side of the runway giving scheduled and charter operations more space. But I assume it will take a couple more years until this project is finalized.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-05 03:28:10 and read 11377 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 174):
The ideas are very nice...but as we are in the world of cost cutting, the concept would be at the end to complicated and too costly.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 179):
It still complicates service and adds costs.

Sorry, I don't see where the increased costs would be. In Y-, the costs base would even be lower, and the service there would be simpler than nowadays. Y+ would indeed have a slightly increased cost base, yet pretty much in line with Y and B booking classes, offering a better service to more budget-restricted business travellers as well as to more premium Leisure passengers.

A 3-class European product wold it well with upgauges (lower unit costs), which LX has done quite a lot since 2002 (S20/SF3/ER4/ER7/AR8 ---> AR1, and to some extend AR1--->319/320). With more upgauges and a 2-tier Y class, there might be a way to regain even more momentum against U2/EZS, especially if all fares become available on a one-way basis.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 179):
LX's current Y class service is all anyone expects on short flights. I highly doubt that LX is losing traffic due to their European product which in my experience is at least as good and usually better than other carriers.

The current Y European product of LX is good indeed, not doubt about that. But as Legacies as AF and BA have seriously started itching their heads as to what they should do about their Y class in Europe as U2 is playing havoc on them, can LX ignore the trend for long? AF in particular, is eyeing some major reshuffle of their European product and cost base.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 173):
While a Y+ concept is indeed an interesting one, I don't think LX needs to jump on that bandwagon, since at the moment they've proven to be just as competitive without it.

Mother LH doesn't seem to be too open to Y- class anyway, and especially SN B-light class, indeed a rather mediocre product, with a very limited BOB offer and worn out cabins, for fares which are not always that cheap.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 178):
Only transit pax from Schengen to Schengen won't have a security check. But pax from non-Schengen countries of course still will have (this is compulsary by Schengen law). For those pax there will be a special security. The central security is only for o-pax.

As far as I remember, only those passengers arriving at Dock E shall go though security checks on their way to Docks A and B. Will passengers arriving at Dock B also have to go for such checks on their way to Docks A and E?

[Edited 2010-10-05 03:33:57]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-05 03:42:10 and read 11380 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 183):
These routes were operated for some time by Darwin Airlines but without much success. The tag-on flight BRN-LUG had very very light loads. A

Crossair would also fly LUG-BRN-CDG in the past. How did this line work 10 yrs ago?

LUG-BRN is an endless, very inconvenient journey by train. Couldn't the Federal government support this route, and have it even somehow integrated within the public ground transportation system (with let's say CHF 50 and 100 off every single leg for Halbtax and 1st-class GA holders)?

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 183):
A double daily flight BRN-London could do well, but not with a flight to Lugano.

No market for LUG-LCY at all?

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 183):
They might also increase Barcelona to daily flights since this flight has become very successful.

It seems that all routes CH-BCN, regardless of the airline, do all very well  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: UALWN
Posted 2010-10-05 03:58:54 and read 11367 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 185):
It seems that all routes CH-BCN, regardless of the airline, do all very well

It's amazing, isn't it? I remember when back in 1998 (I think) Easyjet started operating for the first time outside of the UK with GVA-BCN. What a weird choice, I thought (and I jumped into the very first BCN-GVA flight, flown for free because U2 lacked the permits). Clearly, the U2 management knew better than me.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Someone83
Posted 2010-10-05 04:12:09 and read 11352 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 184):
Sorry, I don't see where the increased costs would be. In Y-, the costs base would even be lower, and the service there would be simpler than nowadays

Increased complexivity is a killer for low cost. It's much better for LX to keep it simple, then to drag in several confusing concepts

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: mozart
Posted 2010-10-05 04:54:37 and read 11336 times.

If I may just comment on two topics:

The Bern-Lugano flights. That route is actually not commercially sustainable. It existed thanks to a federal subsidy and there actually was quite an uproar when the National Council figured out that money was being paid only for the National Councillers from Ticino to fly in and out of Bern rather than take the train (which admittedly takes much longer and does not allow for them to arrive for an early morning meeting in Bern).

The Economy Plus idea. I am very familiar with the AF product and also with AF's first assessment of it. First, one has to understand the backdrop of that move: AF has decided that it wants to compete against LCCs by offering prices which are almost as low as the LCCs, thinking that beating them on quality was not an option. It therefore has to cut service levels dramatically. However, as AF still has a large customer base of business flyers and corporate contracts that pay higher economy fares and sometimes even business fares it felt that something special had to be given to them. So it invented Eco Plus, previously called "Tempo" and now "Premium Economy". In its latest incarnation that Eco+ cabin is *NOT* separated from the Business ("Premium Affaires") cabin.

AF's first assessment is that it actually holds ground pretty well in the price-sensitive segment. They seem to be happy with the way things are going in the back of the bus. Putting in more and "lighter" seats will increase capacities and thus increase productivity (at least mathematically). However, it is less happy with the front cabin. The service level there is still bad, actually too bad for a full fare product. What is more, there is ABSOLUTELY NO difference between Premium Affaires and Premium Eco, with the exception of a free middle seat in Premium Affaires. But with the two classes not being separated by a curtain or else what usually happens is that pax from Premium Eco just move a couple of rows up once doors are closed. Some of them without even noticing that they have moved from Premium Eco to Business. In the end everybody is happy because everyone has a free seat, but few people have paid Business. Of course this hardly works on full flights, but with the quality of AF Business only few people buy European Business, the rest of the seats taken by intercontinental transfer pax.

In my mind Swiss doesn't need to go that way. It has decided that to combat competition it will differentiate itself by quality, not by cutting service. That seems to work, as Swiss has been profitable even throughout the crisis years (unlike Air France which was bleeding money).

Just my 2 cents

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-05 07:33:35 and read 11259 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 186):
It's amazing, isn't it?

It is, really.

The worsening railway services on BCN-CH must have also switched some custom up in the air.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 186):
I remember when back in 1998 (I think) Easyjet started operating for the first time outside of the UK with GVA-BCN. What a weird choice, I thought (and I jumped into the very first BCN-GVA flight, flown for free because U2 lacked the permits).

The weird thing was also the complimentary camping stay  
Quoting Someone83 (Reply 187):
Increased complexivity is a killer for low cost. It's much better for LX to keep it simple, then to drag in several confusing concepts

If one applies this to the fullest, then LX should then have only 1 class on its European flights....

Quoting mozart (Reply 188):
The Bern-Lugano flights. That route is actually not commercially sustainable. It existed thanks to a federal subsidy and there actually was quite an uproar when the National Council figured out that money was being paid only for the National Councillers from Ticino to fly in and out of Bern rather than take the train (which admittedly takes much longer and does not allow for them to arrive for an early morning meeting in Bern).

Yes, this seemed to be like a highly-political, government-fed route.

Even once the Gotthard Base Tunnel opens round 2015, Lugano-Bern will still take 4hrs by train.


BRN itself is a very niche market, where public sector-related travel is probably the only big, all-year-round driver. FCO, ORY, LCY, BRU, BER and VIE are probably the only destinations which could sustain 2 daily flights Mondays-Fridays in the end. Other routes have a more seasonal potential I believe.

While we are at it, is LUG-GVA profitable?
.

Quoting mozart (Reply 188):
AF has decided that it wants to compete against LCCs by offering prices which are almost as low as the LCCs, thinking that beating them on quality was not an option.

Even though European Y at AF has recently been downgraded, it remains a better product than that of U2.

Quoting mozart (Reply 188):
service level there is still bad, actually too bad for a full fare product. ABSOLUTELY

That's indeed a problem, AF European C class was downgraded little by little in the past 15yrs. No so long ago, AF would offer classy catering on that market. Their recent "New European Offer" also meant scrapping the welcome drink 
Quote:

What is more, there is NO difference between Premium Affaires and Premium Eco, with the exception of a free middle seat in Premium Affaires.

More product differentiation needed I believe.

Quoting mozart (Reply 188):
But with the two classes not being separated by a curtain

There should be one.

Quoting mozart (Reply 188):
In my mind Swiss doesn't need to go that way. It has decided that to combat competition it will differentiate itself by quality, not by cutting service.

I truly agree with that choice, but Y- doesn't always imply that you undermine quality. WN, not FR, should be the reference here.

And a good Y+ class with some improvements in C wouldn't conflict with LX quality preference, either. In the end, 3 quality classes: budget, budget premium and more premium.

Quoting mozart (Reply 188):
That seems to work, as Swiss has been profitable even throughout the crisis years (unlike Air France which was bleeding money).

That is indeed undisputable, even though LX was bleeding nearly to death as AF was booming a few years ago.

This notwithstanding, if majors such as BA, IB and AZ go for Y+ besides Y and C on their European flights, LX and other LH Group airlines may have to reconsider the issue. Not to mention the case where U2 and FR would also offer Y+ or something alike.

On the rails, major European operators (SNCF, Renfe, Trenitalia, NTV also eye a more diverse and broader product range in the coming years. Interesting developments to be expected. The AF-Veolia HSR project itself contemplated 4 different classes.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-10-05 12:16:23 and read 11128 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 175):
There will soon be a centralized security checkpoint which will certainly be more customer friendly than the ceckpoints today that are spread out within the entire airport.

This will solve or at least reduce the lines for security checks, however what will happen with Passport control, this will not be at the security building as it is before the airside center and this is a shengen area?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-10-05 17:22:40 and read 11040 times.

Quoting mozart (Reply 188):
there is ABSOLUTELY NO difference between Premium Affaires and Premium Eco, with the exception of a free middle seat in Premium Affaires.
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 184):
uoting Viscount724 (Reply 179):
It still complicates service and adds costs.

Sorry, I don't see where the increased costs would be. In Y-, the costs base would even be lower, and the service there would be simpler than nowadays. Y+ would indeed have a slightly increased cost base, yet pretty much in line with Y and B booking classes, offering a better service to more budget-restricted business travellers as well as to more premium Leisure passengers.

You're overlooking the revenue management and inventory control issues. If you want what is basically 3 classes of service on aircraft as small as the Avro RJ you have to ensure that your IT systems can assign seats in the appropriate rows, and the demand will vary widely from route to route and by day of week. Why go to all that trouble? And business class on LX Avro RJs is a joke with no separation between J and Y classes and virtually no difference in service apart from the little snack you get in J (and only a sandwich handed to you in a paper bag on flights of up to 90 minutes or so). They don't even leave the middle seat on the 3-abreast side on the Avros empty as they do on the A319/320/321.

And with only 2 flight attendants on the Avro RJ but 97 passengers to serve, the flight attendant who distributes whatever snack/sandwich is offered in J class then normally disappears to help the other flight attendant serve Y class passengers and only reappears near the end of flight to pick up your trash.

With 3 different types of service on that type of aircraft, they're just inviting problems and complaints. Keep it simple.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: UALWN
Posted 2010-10-06 06:45:50 and read 10923 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 189):
The weird thing was also the complimentary camping stay  

You're right! On the first day or two U2's flights operated as private flights, for free, although passengers (I mean guests) were encouraged to donate some money to the airline. Then they became charter flights, including accomodation (in a camping!!). After a couple of months they got the permits to operate regular scheduled service.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: sandroZRH
Posted 2010-10-06 16:37:03 and read 10811 times.

I don't want to stirr the pot, but company gossip has it that LX might be looking at acquiring A340-600s. Latest I heard is that these would be ex-SA models. I have no idea wether SA actually wants to get rid of them, how many and what time frame we are talking about, and as we all know what company gossip is i suggest you take this with a huge grain of salt.

Still though, some food for thought.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-10-06 17:52:36 and read 10776 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 193):
I don't want to stirr the pot, but company gossip has it that LX might be looking at acquiring A340-600s. Latest I heard is that these would be ex-SA models. I have no idea wether SA actually wants to get rid of them, how many and what time frame we are talking about, and as we all know what company gossip is i suggest you take this with a huge grain of salt.

Still though, some food for thought.

This is really an interesting rumor. If it became true, how many frames du you think would it be? My guess is up to four. They don't need a big fleet to fly them economically because the pilots are them same as for the 343/333 and the maintenance could be done by LH.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: 328JET
Posted 2010-10-06 18:08:06 and read 10802 times.

I heard about the A346 as well, but without a source of the aircrafts.

Rumours say 4-5 aircraft to free up some A343s which would go to SN Brussels.

I would not rule out new A346s as Airbus could deliver them very quickly.

Otherwise, Thai Airways or Etihad are possible sources.


 

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-07 02:10:29 and read 10650 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 191):
You're overlooking the revenue management and inventory control issues. If you want what is basically 3 classes of service on aircraft as small as the Avro RJ you have to ensure that your IT systems can assign seats in the appropriate rows, and the demand will vary widely from route to route and by day of week. Why go to all that trouble?

SN makes it on its AR8/AR1, and SK on its CR9.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 191):
And business class on LX Avro RJs is a joke with no separation between J and Y classes and virtually no difference in service apart from the little snack you get in J (and only a sandwich handed to you in a paper bag on flights of up to 90 minutes or so). They don't even leave the middle seat on the 3-abreast side on the Avros empty as they do on the A319/320/321.

Well, everytime I flew LX AR1 in C in the past months,

- the curtain was closed
- there was a cold tray on shorter flights, rather than sandwiches
- the middle seat was free

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 191):
And with only 2 flight attendants on the Avro RJ but 97 passengers to serve, the flight attendant who distributes whatever snack/sandwich is offered in J class then normally disappears to help the other flight attendant serve Y class passengers and only reappears near the end of flight to pick up your trash.

Yes, correct  

But what I like with LX C class is that when the 2 attendants are back to C to pick your tray, they also ask if you want a re-fill and give it to you if you wish so.

With a 3-class system, it might me a little more complex, but the extra time spent in Y+ could be offset with the more expedient service in Y- (soft drinks only, and on very short flights, they could perhaps go again for complimentary bottles of water in the seatback basket).

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-07 02:23:52 and read 10633 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 193):
I don't want to stirr the pot, but company gossip has it that LX might be looking at acquiring A340-600s.

Very interesting news.

Again, one further sign that SR is more and more reviving through LX  
Quoting 328JET (Reply 195):
Rumours say 4-5 aircraft to free up some A343s which would go to SN Brussels.

If SN is to (re) start BOS, NYC, IAD, ORD and to serve IAH, it won't need 343s. 333s/332s would be more appropriate.

343s would only be required for LAX, NRT and BKK.


Any chance that LX gets a bit more 346s than it transfers 343s?

Quoting 328JET (Reply 195):
would not rule out new A346s as Airbus could deliver them very quickly.

Production has recently stopped, but the line may still be hot enough for a quick re-start.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-10-07 02:49:37 and read 10606 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 193):
I don't want to stirr the pot, but company gossip has it that LX might be looking at acquiring A340-600s.

Hey, we're always open for a good rumor. 

What LX destinations do you all see the A346 being sent to, if acquired?

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 193):
Latest I heard is that these would be ex-SA models.

Aren't these the models that were initially supposed to go to SR?

Quoting ZRH (Reply 194):
They don't need a big fleet to fly them economically because the pilots are them same as for the 343/333 and the maintenance could be done by LH.

I think SR Technics could do the maintenance too. I've seen them do maintenance on VS' A346s in the past.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 197):
Any chance that LX gets a bit more 346s than it transfers 343s?

The way things have been progressing lately, this could very well be the case.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-07 03:58:15 and read 10515 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 198):
Aren't these the models that were initially supposed to go to SR?

Yes, there are  

That would be an interesting shift. And another counter-argument, little revenge against the doom-and-gloom on Swiss in its very first years.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 198):
e way things have been progressing lately, this could very well be the case.

Let's hope that those 346s will have their 3 classes in line with those of 333s  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-10-07 04:10:48 and read 10524 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 198):


What LX destinations do you all see the A346 being sent to, if acquired?

With 4 A346 they could probably only serve 2 destinations. NRT, JNB or GRU could be possible destinations.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: sandroZRH
Posted 2010-10-07 05:49:39 and read 10427 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 198):
What LX destinations do you all see the A346 being sent to, if acquired?

Definitely HKG. those flights almost always go out (zero fuel-) weight restricted.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 198):
I think SR Technics could do the maintenance too. I've seen them do maintenance on VS' A346s in the past.

Oh yes they could. SRT has done maintenance on a lot of VS and LH A346s.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Someone83
Posted 2010-10-07 08:31:31 and read 10380 times.

From Swiss' Facebook status:

We will be adding further capacity to selected routes in our 2010/11 winter schedules. From Zurich we will be offering additional frequencies to both European and intercontinental destinations. In Europe these will include more daily flights to Stockholm, Valencia and Belgrade; and on the long-haul network Bangkok, Delhi and Mumbai will all enjoy new daily service. Our Geneva-based network will also be expanded with the addition of a new Madrid route and a third daily Barcelona flight.

------
For ARN that means 3x daily on LX from December 17th, in addtion to the two SAS flight (LX code-share on both)

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-07 12:50:38 and read 10149 times.

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 202):
In Europe these will include more daily flights to Stockholm, Valencia and Belgrade;

So 2 daily flights on ZRH-BEG and ZRH-VLC? Quite confident, given that VLC is served by quite many budget flights  
Quoting Someone83 (Reply 202):
Bangkok, Delhi and Mumbai will all enjoy new daily service.

Which will re-instate those routes to their pre-GFC offer.

Isn't SFO supposed to go from 6-weekly to daily, too?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-10-07 14:04:18 and read 10070 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 203):
Isn't SFO supposed to go from 6-weekly to daily, too?

I believe daily flights will be offered next summer.

What do you think could be the next new LX short/medium haul destinations from ZRH? During the next two to three years they will also take delivery of some A320 and 321s. I would like them to expand their network to the East and South in particular BEY, DAM, ESB, ALG, HEL (finally). With the introduction of their CS100 aircraft I could see them adding destinations such as MRS, BOD, GLA, BLQ, NAP.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-10-07 14:32:58 and read 10055 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 201):
Definitely HKG. those flights almost always go out (zero fuel-) weight restricted.

Do they somethimes need to leave Cargo behind?

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 199):

Let's hope that those 346s will have their 3 classes in line with those of 333s

If LX will get those planes I am sure they will upgrade the seating to the A333 standards  

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-07 16:57:19 and read 10007 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 204):
What do you think could be the next new LX short/medium haul destinations from ZRH?

Before starting new European destinations from ZRH, perhaps LX should increase from 3 to 4 daily flights the following routes:
MAN, MAD, LUX, VCE, PRG and BUD. This would enhance connection opportunities (all connecting banks attended) to/from key routes, with more destination choice.

FLR, BHX and ATH mays also be upgraded from 3 to 4 daily, at a later stage, though.

DUB and OTP could be upgraded from 1 to 2 daily perhaps

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 204):
With the introduction of their CS100 aircraft I could see them adding destinations such as MRS, BOD, GLA, BLQ, NAP.

In terms of new routes, I think HEL (3 daily), KRK (2-3 daily) and ADB (1 daily) would be a quick, good and safe (re) start.


BIO could also be a nice addition, as well as BRS, LBA and EDI, but one may have to wait until Spain and the UK have better recovered from the GFC.


France could also be a good market, and easier one than Spain and the UK, and a good way of pumping into AF custom. TLS and MRS are the most obvious targets to me, but BDX and NTE could also be tempting at a later stage. Perhaps, a code-shared rail service SXB-MLH-BSL-ZRH could also work well.

Italy, especially the North, could be a good driver for network expansion, with quite many wealthy major cities, such as TRN, VRN and BLQ, all a very good way of pumping into AZ premium custom.

Otherwise, and depending on how many of the 30 C10 options are confirmed (on top of the 30 firm orders), we may see LX operating itself routes currently operated by partner airlines: GOT, DRS, SZG, LJU, ZAG, MLA., as well as terminating the wet-lease of 100s of C3 and 2L.

Subject to the OS restructuring, LX may operate more flights on Switzerland-Austria routes at the expense of OS, while LH may also transfer some Eastern European and Near East destinations from OS to LX. Austria itself could add new destinations to the LX map, i.e. INN and GRZ.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 204):
During the next two to three years they will also take delivery of some A320 and 321s. I would like them to expand their network to the East and South in particular BEY, DAM, ESB, ALG, HEL (finally).

As more remote Mediterranean desinations, CMN (+tag-on RAK?), LCA and BEY are the most obvious ones to me.
GOJ or SVX might be relevant too.

But in my view, LX should then set-up a subfleet of 320/321s, with better interiors, for those more remote destinations.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-07 17:08:24 and read 10000 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 205):
If LX will get those planes I am sure they will upgrade the seating to the A333 standards

Hopefully yes  


While the F cabin is unlikely to be any bigger than the 8 suites of 333s, it will be interesting to see how the extra room is allocated between C and Y cabins.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-10-07 17:25:45 and read 9997 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 206):
But in my view, LX should then set-up a subfleet of 320/321s, with better interiors, for those more remote destinations.

Interestingly, OS is doing exactly the opposite. Noted a recent news item mentioning that OS will soon be removing the dedicated 2-2 configuration business class cabin on 4 A320s used on longer-range services to certain destinations in the Middle East and Central Asia etc. and will in future use their standard European product on those routes. That decision obviously involved their LH parent so I can't see them going in the other direction at LX.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Asiaflyer
Posted 2010-10-07 18:17:40 and read 9997 times.

Fantastic rumor, hope it becomes true!....
Would be great to see a Swiss A346.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 197):
Quoting 328JET (Reply 195):
would not rule out new A346s as Airbus could deliver them very quickly.

Production has recently stopped, but the line may still be hot enough for a quick re-start.

Production has not stopped, but no A346 has been delivered since the last plane to IB left the line.
For a new order, wouldn't it have to queue up in the A330/340 orderbook, which is pretty thick at moment?

Quoting 328JET (Reply 195):
Otherwise, Thai Airways or Etihad are possible sources.

How about QR, who have talked about getting rid of theirs for a while now?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-10-08 02:04:25 and read 9865 times.

Bad news from Baboo. Due to its high losses over the entire time of operation the company is preparing to lay off about half of its 180 employees. Charter contracts with Hotelplan and Kuoni have been cancelled.

http://www.travelinside.ch/travelinside/de/index.php?we_objectID=16118 (in german only)

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-08 02:32:12 and read 9818 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 208):
Interestingly, OS is doing exactly the opposite. Noted a recent news item mentioning that OS will soon be removing the dedicated 2-2 configuration business class cabin on 4 A320s used on longer-range services to certain destinations in the Middle East and Central Asia etc. and will in future use their standard European product on those routes. That decision obviously involved their LH parent so I can't see them going in the other direction at LX.


Sad news, really, especially as OS had spent quite much money and energy to develop their Premium Service on that network.

Or perhaps LH eyes a removal of those destinations from the OS network, while the re-fitted 320s would be transferred to European routes.

I just can't think of travelling VIE-TSE in such conditions. AF and KL must be rubbing their hands, really.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 210):

Bad news from Baboo. Due to its high losses over the entire time of operation the company is preparing to lay off about half of its 180 employees. Charter contracts with Hotelplan and Kuoni have been cancelled.

Any thoughts whether scheduled lines might be axed?

[Edited 2010-10-08 02:43:08]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: mozart
Posted 2010-10-08 03:09:31 and read 9764 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 210):
Bad news from Baboo. Due to its high losses over the entire time of operation the company is preparing to lay off about half of its 180 employees. Charter contracts with Hotelplan and Kuoni have been cancelled.

What a pity! I really like(d) that airline! Although they never seemed to fly to St. Tropez when I needed them.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LAX888
Posted 2010-10-08 03:20:44 and read 9754 times.

hey there, just joined a few days ago and not sure if this was already asked once. However I was wondering if LX would consider a premium economy class like BA or VS?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Humberside
Posted 2010-10-08 03:43:14 and read 9731 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 206):
BIO could also be a nice addition, as well as BRS, LBA and EDI, but one may have to wait until Spain and the UK have better recovered from the GFC.

For an EDI, working more closely with bmi regional would be a start (they of course already fly EDI-ZRH)

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-10-08 04:12:59 and read 9707 times.

Just found this gem on 20min.ch about how the Government wants to loosen up the nightban at ZRH. Just read some of the comments from the readers. http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...n-Nachtfluegen-aufweichen-18269562

(in German only)

In my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes was to allow the implementation of the new nightban ruling, because once you appease to those NIMBYs, they will always want more. It seems as if slowly but surely Berne is finally waking up and realizing the importance of ZRH for the country as a whole.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-08 04:48:51 and read 9672 times.

Quoting LAX888 (Reply 213):
hey there, just joined a few days ago and not sure if this was already asked once. However I was wondering if LX would consider a premium economy class like BA or VS?

Well, I have been raising the isue of having a 3-class offer on European fights (C, Y+ and Y-), but it seems that not too many people here would buy that  

Y+ isn't too popular within the LH Group, seemingly, and if/when LH takes over SK, i will be very interesting to see what happen with the dual-Y offer of SK.

A real pity in my view, as AF-KL-AZ and BA/VS have gone for Y+, while U2 i also rumoured to do so quite soon.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 214):
For an EDI, working more closely with bmi regional would be a start (they of course already fly EDI-ZRH)

Maybe, but BMR offers too low frequency on EDI-ZRH, with very limited connection opportunities.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-10-10 12:07:35 and read 9290 times.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 215):
Just found this gem on 20min.ch about how the Government wants to loosen up the nightban at ZRH. Just read some of the comments from the readers. http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...n-Nachtfluegen-aufweichen-18269562

(in German only)

In my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes was to allow the implementation of the new nightban ruling, because once you appease to those NIMBYs, they will always want more. It seems as if slowly but surely Berne is finally waking up and realizing the importance of ZRH for the country as a whole.

In the past it was Swissair and the early SWISS that have almost wiped out Swiss aviation and I hope that now as the future growth and success of Swiss aviation is in the hands of the goverment finally economic decisions will be taken ignoring the sreaming "NIMBYs" and securing the success of Zurich airport for the future to come, this should involve to very quickly rethink the plans of the neglected ideas to build a parallel runway.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-10 12:33:23 and read 9260 times.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 217):
In the past it was Swissair and the early SWISS that have almost wiped out Swiss aviation

Unfortunately yes.

The Federal governement was reckless in the way it ignored the first genuine threats on SR existence in late-2000/early2001. A real pity that they haven't taken the plunge in March/April 2001, as it would have been cheaper for the taxpayer, and less painfull for SR/LX staff/customers and Swiss Aviation overall.

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 217):
this should involve to very quickly rethink the plans of the neglected ideas to build a parallel runway.

Which other ideas have been neglected?

May we have hopes for a thorough refurbishment of Dock A, an extension of Dock E, and perhaps a new Dock C?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: LXA340
Posted 2010-10-10 12:44:31 and read 9237 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 218):
Which other ideas have been neglected?

May we have hopes for a thorough refurbishment of Dock A, an extension of Dock E, and perhaps a new Dock C?

So far one of the neglected ideas was the parallel runways system.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-10-10 13:26:41 and read 9219 times.

Check those links out. Made some drafts for a possible ZRH extention a while ago. Maybe we see that once in the future in ZRH?





http://paziart73.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d30hgio

http://paziart73.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d30hh8y


Greetz,
Patrick

[Edited 2010-10-10 13:29:27]

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-10 15:47:17 and read 9144 times.

Quoting glidepath73 (Reply 220):
Check those links out. Made some drafts for a possible ZRH extention a while ago. Maybe we see that once in the future in ZRH

http://paziart73.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d30hgio

Thx a lot  

Quite visionary I shall say   

That would indeed imply a substantial extension of the SkyMetro, so as to serve Dock F, and perhaps to extend into Dock B as well.

Would you contemplate a swap of Schengen with non-Schengen traffic between Dock A and Extended Dock B, as the latter would become bigger than the former?

By 2025, the UE and the Schengen Area will have extended at least to all Balkanic/ex-Yugoslavian countries, perhaps to the Ukraine, while one cannot rule out that the UK, Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man eventually join the Schengen Area as well.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-10-11 00:28:11 and read 9065 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 221):
Would you contemplate a swap of Schengen with non-Schengen traffic between Dock A and Extended Dock B, as the latter would become bigger than the former?

By 2025, the UE and the Schengen Area will have extended at least to all Balkanic/ex-Yugoslavian countries, perhaps to the Ukraine, while one cannot rule out that the UK, Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man eventually join the Schengen Area as well.

I would suggest, that by time, the Docks 'A' and 'B' would be designated for Schengen passangers only. Docks 'E' and 'F' would handle all non Shengen and all longhaul flights.

A variant as Dock 'A' and 'E' for 'Schengen' and 'B' and 'F' for 'Non Schengen' could be even possible. This might depend on the SKY METRO capacity, which will have to be extendet quite a lot by that time. I think planning and buliding the new bus gate building recently was maybe not optimal. ZRH should bring up here a clean sheed design:
Remove the Gate Gourmet Building and build up here a new connected Terminal with related gates and up to 8 new jetways, which can be seen on those two drafts.

Greetz,
Patrick

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-10-11 04:36:12 and read 8909 times.

BTW does anybody know when the new Dock B will be opened?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dalce
Posted 2010-10-11 05:19:50 and read 8869 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 221):
UK, Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man eventually join the Schengen Area as well.

I already would have expected them to join earlier. But somehow they want to control their borders on their own.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2010-10-11 05:20:07 and read 8879 times.

The Zurich 2010 project page says that Dock be will be operational in late 2011.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-10-11 06:22:39 and read 8844 times.

Lufthansa which has just announced to add a fifth daily flight in winter on the BSL to FRA route will add a 6th daily flight effective summer 11 schedule (in addition to 6 daily MUC and 2 daily DUS).

Also, Air Berlin will open BSL-TXL, according to my information twice daily with A319/320 aircraft. To be confirmed in the next days. A few conncting flights (such as BSL-MIA via TXL) are already on their website.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-11 08:08:00 and read 8820 times.

Quoting glidepath73 (Reply 222):
would suggest, that by time, the Docks 'A' and 'B' would be designated for Schengen passangers only. Docks 'E' and 'F' would handle all non Shengen and all longhaul flights.

A variant as Dock 'A' and 'E' for 'Schengen' and 'B' and 'F' for 'Non Schengen' could be even possible.

It would be preferable if European fights be allocated to Docks A and B, so that one can avoid the SkyMetro on such short flights.

Perhaps, a small non-Schengen zone in Extended Dock B for the British Common Travel Area, The Ukraine, Russia, Turkey, Morocco and Tunisia would be advisable. As far as I know, the design of the rebuilt Dock B will allow good allocation flexibility between Schengen and Non-Schengen traffic, even though Dock B will be 100% non-Schengen upon opening.

If you have to take the SkyMetro to Dock E or F just to catch a stupid flight to London, ZRH will lose some of its convenience, really.

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 223):
BTW does anybody know when the new Dock B will be opened?
Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 225):
The Zurich 2010 project page says that Dock be will be operational in late 2011.

It would be good if Dock B could be completed and certified by the beginning of the Winter Timetable 2011/2012.

Quoting dalce (Reply 224):
I already would have expected them to join earlier. But somehow they want to control their borders on their own.

We shall see.

Air and Rail passengers tend to take it more and more granted that European Travel should be free from immigration checks, and as a result, they tend to be more and more upset at such controls when travelling to the Britisch CTA.

Switzerland was conversely very clever to make such move in 2004.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-11 08:40:11 and read 8804 times.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 226):
Also, Air Berlin will open BSL-TXL, according to my information twice daily with A319/320 aircraft. To be confirmed in the next days. A few conncting flights (such as BSL-MIA via TXL) are already on their website.

This is once again evidence that other carriers are filling the vacuum which Swiss has left in BSL since 2003/2004.

LX 'd better take action, before SkyTeam and OneWorld (+U2) have pumped most of its market in the TriRhena area.


If aircraft availability is an issue, LX could perhaps:

- lease 2 disused 142s from SN, as these are still for sale
- lease some AR8s and AR1s from SN, as some are to be displaced with 319s and 320s
- acquire some 319s from OS, if these are to become surplus as a result of the restructuring plan of OS.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-10-11 09:45:43 and read 8770 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 228):
- lease 2 disused 142s from SN, as these are still for sale

Sorry, but what are 142?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-11 09:54:24 and read 8768 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 229):
Sorry, but what are 142

BAe 146-200, sorry.

Or perhaps LX could get some 319s and 320s from MX.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-10-11 10:23:05 and read 8761 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 227):
It would be preferable if European fights be allocated to Docks A and B, so that one can avoid the SkyMetro on such short flights.

I think really the same. ZRH = Short ways for short flights........  

Does anybody have a link to an official master plan for a draft showing a possible future parallel runway system in ZRH?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dalce
Posted 2010-10-12 01:02:04 and read 8566 times.

TP seems to have 2 A320's available, although they are oldish with almost 20years old, but this could give LX a short term boost already.
Leasing the 142's from SN is a worse option, these are new sub-types with complete different cockpits than the AR1's AFAIK.
LX is on a growing track, but tends to do it slow. Lessons learned perhaps?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-12 05:29:05 and read 8462 times.

Quoting glidepath73 (Reply 231):
I think really the same. ZRH = Short ways for short flights........

Oh yes, tell me about it  

Schengen-to-Schengen connections at Dock A are so smooth and quick, nothing comparable to CDG...

Quoting dalce (Reply 232):
TP seems to have 2 A320's available, although they are oldish with almost 20years old, but this could give LX a short term boost already.

It would still be better than nothing, as an interim solution.

I really wonder what is going to happen to the MX fleet of 319s and 320s.

Quoting dalce (Reply 232):
Leasing the 142's from SN is a worse option, these are new sub-types with complete different cockpits than the AR1's AFAIK.

Crossair used to fly some 142s in the early-90s, so these aircrafts would not be completely new to Swiss, assuming that they still have pilots qualified for this a/c, notwitstanding the massive job cuts in 2002/2005...

Quoting dalce (Reply 232):
LX is on a growing track, but tends to do it slow. Lessons learned perhaps?

I understand such prudence to a certain extend, as Swiss went through very adverse conditions in 2002/2005. Most BSL flights were operated with a far too big regional fleet of SF3, S20 and ER4, which wasn't too suitable, while LX was struggling for survival.

Since then, conditions have improved, and would be a real pity if LX allowed competitors to steal its market in BSL.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-10-13 00:31:27 and read 8206 times.

Really bad... (sorry in German only)

http://www.aero.de/news-11252/Deutsc...eniger-Einfluege-nach-Zuerich.html

I think, it is really time to start with a new runway concept in ZRH.
RWY 10-28 should get really extended to allow proper longhaul handling.
And a possible 10L-28R RWY should be added north of Dock E. The problem here would really be the topographic situation with the hills western and eastern of those both runways.

What is the current state of the planned 'optimised north arrival' ("gekröpfter Nordanflug"?) study?
Haven't' there been any trials conducted in the past?

Geetings,
Patrick

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-10-13 03:16:17 and read 8099 times.

There seems to be a new airline starting from St. Gallen-Altenrhein airport.

The airline is called "People's Vienna line" and wants to start 3 daily flights to Vienna with the Embraer-170.

The airline is owned by St. Gallen airport (which calls itself "The people's business airport St. Gallen").

I think this is a waste of money. The airport name reminds me somehow about North Korea. And to compete with the only client they have is also a special tactic...

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: RJ100
Posted 2010-10-13 10:58:40 and read 7943 times.

Now it's official, Air Berlin will start BSL-TXL in February 2011 with two flights Monday to Friday and one flight on Saturday and Sunday with A-319/A-320.

The summer 2011 schedule from Basel will look like this:

8 x weekly Palma
1 x weekly Las Palmas
1 x weekly Teneriffa
2 x weekly Sharm-el-Sheikh
3 x weekly Hurghada
2 x weekly Ibiza
2 x weekly Heraklion
1 x weekly Kos
1 x weekly Rhodos
2 x weekly Catania
1 x weekly Lamezia Terme
1 x weekly La Valetta (Malta)
1 x weekly Rimini
1 x weekly Antalya
1 x weekly Djerba
1 x weekly Enfidha
2 x weekly Nador
12 x weekly Berlin Tegel

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: sandroZRH
Posted 2010-10-13 13:33:08 and read 7866 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 228):
- lease 2 disused 142s from SN, as these are still for sale
- lease some AR8s and AR1s from SN, as some are to be displaced with 319s and 320s
- acquire some 319s from OS, if these are to become surplus as a result of the restructuring plan of OS.
Quoting dalce (Reply 232):
TP seems to have 2 A320's available, although they are oldish with almost 20years old, but this could give LX a short term boost already.

And who is going to fly these aircraft? LX still doesn't have enough pilots as it is, and thats not going to get any better with the new GAV coming online late this year.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2010-10-13 14:47:22 and read 7819 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 233):
Quoting dalce (Reply 232):
Leasing the 142's from SN is a worse option, these are new sub-types with complete different cockpits than the AR1's AFAIK.

Crossair used to fly some 142s in the early-90s,

Assume you are referring to the BAe-146 (not 142).

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-10-14 03:43:59 and read 7683 times.

SWISS goes to European court regarding the overfly dispute with Germany.

I think this step was a necessary move by SWISS.

(Sorry link in German only)

http://www.aero.de/news-11266/Schwei...vor-Europaeischen-Gerichtshof.html

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-14 03:51:14 and read 7669 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 238):
Assume you are referring to the BAe-146 (not 142).

BAe 146-200, yes.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dalce
Posted 2010-10-14 04:23:44 and read 7644 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 237):
And who is going to fly these aircraft? LX still doesn't have enough pilots as it is, and thats not going to get any better with the new GAV coming online late this year.

This is indeed a long term 'problem' with LX.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: SR4ever
Posted 2010-10-14 04:47:39 and read 7624 times.

Quoting sandroZRH (Reply 237):
And who is going to fly these aircraft? LX still doesn't have enough pilots as it is, and thats not going to get any better with the new GAV coming online late this year.

What's GAV, if I may ask?

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: aviationmaster
Posted 2010-10-14 05:06:29 and read 7607 times.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 242):
GAV

Gesamtarbeitsvertrag (GAV)

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: ZRH
Posted 2010-10-14 05:27:08 and read 7605 times.

Quoting glidepath73 (Reply 239):
SWISS goes to European court regarding the overfly dispute with Germany.

I think this step was a necessary move by SWISS.

It is not SWISS which goes to court it is the Swiss Governement. That's an important difference. But you are right it is absolutely necessary.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: oa260
Posted 2010-10-14 10:20:35 and read 7505 times.

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/edeilwiess.jpg

Edelweiss Air CEO Karl Kistler unveils the newly converted Airbus A330-200 in Edelweiss colours. It will make its debut flight for Edelweiss Air on 19 October when it flies guests to Varadero and Cancun.

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: glidepath73
Posted 2010-10-14 11:28:03 and read 7440 times.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 244):
It is not SWISS which goes to court it is the Swiss Governement.

oops, sorry... mixed that up.... "Swiss" and "Swiss Government" is close, but not close enough...  Wow!

Topic: RE: Swiss Aviation Thread #24
Username: dalce
Posted 2010-10-14 23:26:55 and read 7290 times.

Let's go for a new thread, as this one grows a bit long!

To be found here : Swiss Aviation Thread #25

Cheers,
DALCE

[Edited 2010-10-14 23:31:59]


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