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Topic: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-14 13:01:46 and read 15757 times.

I was wondering, we haven't heard anything about what DL plans on doing with the NW 787-8 orders in months. I am pretty sure it is not a matter of if, but when will DL announce their decision.

It has been hinted by Richard Anderson in the past that Delta might switch the NW 787-8 orders to the 777-200LR. Also, perhaps at the same time, could we see DL add on a separate 787-9 order (with GEnx engines instead of the Trent 1000)?

While converting the existing NW 787-8 orders to GEnx engines might result in some penalty, there is nothing RR can do about DL converting the NW 787-8 orders to the 777-200LR (where the GE90-110B is the exclusive engine) and adding on a separate 787-9 order with GE engines. I am 99.9% confident that DL would prefer to have 787s with GE engines, as tests have shown that the GEnx is the superior 787 engine, and the fact that DL is in love with their GE90-110B engines on their 772LR fleet.

Does anyone have their own thoughts?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: dl767captain
Posted 2010-10-14 13:08:06 and read 15710 times.

Converting to the 772LR wouldn't surprise me since they really seem to like that aircraft and may even be able to get them sooner than the 787. Moving to the 787-9 seems to be a popular trend but the 787-8 seems to be a better option for 763 replacement on many routes than the 787-9 so I don't think they would convert them all to the 787-9.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2010-10-14 13:17:14 and read 15630 times.

DL would probably only convert a small portion of those to 789

there are quite a few eastern Europe / South America / Asian routes in their books that are long-n-thin, can be use the lower trip costs of the 788

esp now that DL is finally attempting to bypass NRT and create US-Asia nonstops, the 788 will definitely be a great asset. It's like wasting the 77W on JFK-LHR when the 773 non-ER already have more than sufficient lift and range (and probably lower landing costs in airports that charge by rated MTOW)

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-14 13:25:03 and read 15558 times.

Quoting dl767captain (Reply 1):
Moving to the 787-9 seems to be a popular trend but the 787-8 seems to be a better option for 763 replacement on many routes than the 787-9 so I don't think they would convert them all to the 787-9.

I still think the 789 would still be a better option, as it would offer a lower CASM.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2):
DL would probably only convert a small portion of those to 789

there are quite a few eastern Europe / South America / Asian routes in their books that are long-n-thin, can be use the lower trip costs of the 788

esp now that DL is finally attempting to bypass NRT and create US-Asia nonstops, the 788 will definitely be a great asset. It's like wasting the 77W on JFK-LHR when the 773 non-ER already have more than sufficient lift and range (and probably lower landing costs in airports that charge by rated MTOW)

Actually, I am pretty sure that DL wishes they had some more 764ERs for European and South American routes due to the 764ER's CASM advantage over the 763ER. The 789 carries more passengers yet has the same fuselage width than the 788. However, I don't expect DL to buy more 764ERs as the 787 is on the horizon.

[Edited 2010-10-14 13:28:49]

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-10-14 13:47:52 and read 15393 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Actually, I am pretty sure that DL wishes they had some more 764ERs for European and South American routes due to the 764ER's CASM advantage over the 763ER.




Given your handle, I knew that was coming. I would bet that Delta would wish even more for A332s is they were in a wishing mode for aircraft already in their fleet, since the A332 has just the advantage over the 764ER in just about every category. Perhaps even the A333 would also be on the wish list.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-10-14 14:06:26 and read 15232 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Quoting dl767captain (Reply 1):
Moving to the 787-9 seems to be a popular trend but the 787-8 seems to be a better option for 763 replacement on many routes than the 787-9 so I don't think they would convert them all to the 787-9.

I still think the 789 would still be a better option, as it would offer a lower CASM.

Not to be argumentative, but if that was the main point - CASM - then why would anyone buy the 788? To me, trip cost is just as important as CASM, particularly if you have routes that do not have high enough demand year-round to support the larger aircraft.

Having said that, perhaps there isn't a noticable trip-cost difference between the two frames, and perhaps the 788 will end up being a dog. Short of either of those two, though, I think that there will be an incredible interest in the smallest variant by a variety of carriers, as it is the smallest "new generation" widebody that they can move to to replace the vast 767 fleet.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2010-10-14 14:09:35 and read 15210 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
as tests have shown that the GEnx is the superior 787 engine,

You have any sources to back up this odd claim?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: Delimit
Posted 2010-10-14 14:15:25 and read 15165 times.



Quoting bobnwa (Reply 4):



Given your handle, I knew that was coming. I would bet that Delta would wish even more for A332s is they were in a wishing mode for aircraft already in their fleet, since the A332 has just the advantage over the 764ER in just about every category. Perhaps even the A333 would also be on the wish list.

And the 787 will out perform all of them, and has a wonderful bonus; they don't have to sink an additional cent into them during a time when they are trying to cut debt rather than add to it.

They have all these orders and options for 787s (which most likely cost NW much less then than DL would pay now) that are now floating as Boeing has missed a significant chunk of the original delivery times. DL can basically decide when to take the charge that will come due on delivery or cancel the order with little to no penalty. Converting them to 77Ls would remove all of that nice flexibility. It seems to me if they want more 77Ls, ordering additional planes rather than converting 787s would make more sense.

Unless you are of the opinion that DL will never operate the type. Which seems seriously far fetched given their existing feet.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I still think the 789 would still be a better option, as it would offer a lower CASM.

Lower CASM only matters if you fill the plane enough to offset the better trip costs of the 788.

Personally I think they are waiting for some hard numbers to make a decision by. Also, until Boeing actually starts hitting their delivery targets, DL can attempt to renegotiate for even better terms, as there is no question Boeing very, very seriously wants DL as a customer of the plane, as their eventual fleet needs will be rather large.

[Edited 2010-10-14 14:16:14]

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2010-10-14 14:43:58 and read 14941 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 7):
And the 787 will out perform all of them, and has a wonderful bonus; they don't have to sink an additional cent into them during a time when they are trying to cut debt rather than add to it.

They have all these orders and options for 787s (which most likely cost NW much less then than DL would pay now) that are now floating as Boeing has missed a significant chunk of the original delivery times. DL can basically decide when to take the charge that will come due on delivery or cancel the order with little to no penalty. Converting them to 77Ls would remove all of that nice flexibility. It seems to me if they want more 77Ls, ordering additional planes rather than converting 787s would make more sense.

Delta is the world's largest 767 operator. It is highly unlikely the carrier would completely walk away from the 787.

Boeing did not meet the agreed contractual terms of delivery and aircraft performance so obviously some resolution to that will need to be (and is being) negotiated, and it could entail some very attractive acquisition terms on other types of aircraft. DL does need more 777-size and capability aircraft very badly, but I think the 77L was a much more compelling proposition to standalone DL than it is to consolidated DL/NW.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-14 14:43:59 and read 14945 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 4):
Given your handle, I knew that was coming. I would bet that Delta would wish even more for A332s is they were in a wishing mode for aircraft already in their fleet, since the A332 has just the advantage over the 764ER in just about every category. Perhaps even the A333 would also be on the wish list.

Sorry, but that is an A.net myth. The 764ER has a lower fuel burn on routes within its range, and would have a lower overall trip cost. I have yet to hear or see any statement from DL that they aren't happy with their 764ERs. As for the A333, consider the fact that some were parked last winter due to excess capacity, yet DL didn't park any 764ERs.

[Edited 2010-10-14 14:45:26]

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: ebj1248650
Posted 2010-10-14 14:52:38 and read 14875 times.

As much as Delta seems to like the 764 and in view of the very nice price they're apt to get for purchasing it, would it pay them to buy the 764 now and wait to order the 788 until it's been in service for a while and proved it productivity and profitability?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-14 14:54:54 and read 14854 times.

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 10):
As much as Delta seems to like the 764 and in view of the very nice price they're apt to get for purchasing it, would it pay them to buy the 764 now and wait to order the 788 until it's been in service for a while and proved it productivity and profitability?

Well, DL does still have some unexercised 764ER options, and perhaps Boeing can give DL a sweet deal on them. However, I don't see DL buying any more of them, nor do I see DL buying any more A330s.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-10-14 15:15:43 and read 14698 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
The 764ER has a lower fuel burn on routes within its range, and would have a lower overall trip cost. I have yet to hear or see any statement from DL that they aren't happy with their 764ERs.

The 764ER is about the best plane in that size range for flying to Europe from JFK (or EWR in the case of CO). Even the A330 is too much plane for many of the routes.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: dl767captain
Posted 2010-10-14 15:24:21 and read 14628 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I still think the 789 would still be a better option, as it would offer a lower CASM.

Is lower CASM worth having empty seats on routes that might not need the extra capacity of the 787-9?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: BrianDromey
Posted 2010-10-14 15:38:11 and read 14542 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 7):
Personally I think they are waiting for some hard numbers to make a decision by. Also, until Boeing actually starts hitting their delivery targets, DL can attempt to renegotiate for even better terms

I think the 787 will see a home at DL, but perhaps not in the numbers that might be expected. On one hand NW saw a clear role for the 787 over the Pacific, if that role still exists then I'm sure thats where the aircraft will be placed. Of late DL seems to be following the old NW strategy of buying good, second hand aircraft and flying them until they have no more to give. There are 747s out there right now, which may suit DL, but in the coming years there will be many A330s and 767s which DL may look favorably on. I still see a place for the 787 at DL, but perhaps not in huge numbers until towards the end of the decade and certainly not until DL knows exactly what the 787 is capable of. DL wont want another MD-11 scenario.

Brian.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: QFA787380
Posted 2010-10-14 16:04:02 and read 14386 times.

There is an interview in this month's "Airline Business" with DL's Richard Anderson. The 787 is brought up and Anderson is quoted as saying" I think Boeing has actually done a pretty remarkable job on the 787. When you look at what the airplane was originally designed to do, it is a real step change". That all sounds pretty positive, however, he also says that DL have 167 transoceanic aircraft, 50 of which can operate for 12hrs or more. Combined with their $1bn investment to overhaul the WB fleet's interior, Anderson says: "we're making the right investments. We have the right fleet."
Sounds a bit each way to me and more 777s wouldn't surprise at all. I guess it's just a matter of when DL want 787s. Like AA, I believe DL think the 789 really hits the "sweetspot" for them. Don't think DL will be rushing to the 787 order table but they will get there.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-10-14 16:11:40 and read 14339 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I still think the 789 would still be a better option, as it would offer a lower CASM.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
The 764ER has a lower fuel burn on routes within its range, and would have a lower overall trip cost.

So is lower CASM more important, or is lower trip cost more important?

The A330 would seem to offer greater cargo capabilities, though I am open to correction on that. Nonetheless, I think the reality is that there are a variety of factors that play into any decision a carrier makes, and it is not clear to me that the -9 is the logical choice for many carriers who wish to replace somewhat smaller 763's.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-14 17:10:41 and read 14082 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 16):
The A330 would seem to offer greater cargo capabilities, though I am open to correction on that. Nonetheless, I think the reality is that there are a variety of factors that play into any decision a carrier makes, and it is not clear to me that the -9 is the logical choice for many carriers who wish to replace somewhat smaller 763's.

I have not heard even once from Delta that cargo is an issue for their 764ER flights. The A332 is significantly heavier than the 764ER despite carrying a similar number of passengers. Therefore, the 764ER is better utilized from ATL/JFK to Western Europe, while the A332 is better utilized on longer routes requiring the range.

[Edited 2010-10-14 17:13:02]

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-10-14 17:50:28 and read 13938 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 17):
I have not heard even once from Delta that cargo is an issue for their 764ER flights. The A332 is significantly heavier than the 764ER despite carrying a similar number of passengers. Therefore, the 764ER is better utilized from ATL/JFK to Western Europe, while the A332 is better utilized on longer routes requiring the range.

Well, I never said it was an "issue", as in, "concern". However, I am saying that that can play a part in deciding which aircraft is best. An A330 might make more sense on a short transatlantic trip than a 764 if they can fill the seats and carry more cargo. However, a 764 might make more sense than an A330 on a longer route where cargo demand is lower and perhaps they don't need quite as many seats.

Anyhow, I don't really care to get into which aircraft is better suited for which route, but rather am just trying to figure out exactly what you are saying is "best":

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I still think the 789 would still be a better option, as it would offer a lower CASM.

So CASM is number one. The bigger the better, right?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
The 764ER has a lower fuel burn on routes within its range, and would have a lower overall trip cost.

So lower trip cost is number one. The lower the better, right?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 17):
The A332 is significantly heavier than the 764ER despite carrying a similar number of passengers.

But the A332 might have a higher trip cost but a lower CASM. Which is better? Answer: It depends.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
I have yet to hear or see any statement from DL that they aren't happy with their 764ERs.

I have yet to hear or see any statement from DL that they aren't happy with their A330's.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-14 18:10:31 and read 13827 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):
But the A332 might have a higher trip cost but a lower CASM. Which is better? Answer: It depends.

However, I find it counterintuitive that the A332 would have a lower CASM, considering it is a shrink of a larger aircraft (the A333) vs. the 764ER which is a stretch of a smaller aircraft (the 763ER). Generally, stretches of smaller aircraft would naturally have lower CASMs than shrinks of larger aircraft. This is why DL rejected Boeings 777-100 proposal in favor of the 764ER. The 771 would have probably had more cargo capacity and possibly more range than the 764ER, however, its CASM would have been incredibly high.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-10-14 18:17:28 and read 13780 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 19):
However, I find it counterintuitive that the A332 would have a lower CASM, considering it is a shrink of a larger aircraft (the A333) vs. the 764ER which is a stretch of a smaller aircraft (the 763ER).

Perhaps. However, it also depends on the seating arrangement. In the end, I'm going to let the order numbers speak for themselves. if the 764 had some sort of clear advantage over the A332, I would think there might be just a tad more 764's and just a tad less 332's flying the worlds skies.

Additionally, if CASM is king, then again an A333 would clearly have a CASM advantage over the 764, seating layouts being similarly designed.

I know I'm coming off argumentative, but I think you are drawing conclusions that maybe are contradictory or perhaps too black or white. But I appreciate the dialogue, and am open to learning a thing or two.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-14 18:27:13 and read 13711 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 20):
Perhaps. However, it also depends on the seating arrangement. In the end, I'm going to let the order numbers speak for themselves. if the 764 had some sort of clear advantage over the A332, I would think there might be just a tad more 764's and just a tad less 332's flying the worlds skies.

Yes, I understand that the A332 has the range and cargo advantage which is why it sold better.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 20):
Additionally, if CASM is king, then again an A333 would clearly have a CASM advantage over the 764, seating layouts being similarly designed.

Well, it surely has a CASM advantage over the 772A, which is its true competitor. The A333 weighs significantly less than a 772A while offering a similar passenger count.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):
I have yet to hear or see any statement from DL that they aren't happy with their A330's.

Nor have I, however, there is no proof of DL having a preference of one over the other. Both the 764ER and A332 are important parts of DL's fleet.

In fact, why is DL giving priority to the 764ERs (second only to the 772ERs) for flat-bed installations in BusinessElite? DL hasn't even yet made an annoucement to install flat beds on the A330, so I assume it won't be until at least 2014.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2010-10-14 21:24:05 and read 12663 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
You have any sources to back up this odd claim?

How about the fact that they RR engine blew up on the test pad?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-10-14 21:34:51 and read 12569 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Sorry, but that is an A.net myth. The 764ER has a lower fuel burn on routes within its range, and would have a lower overall trip cost.

Key being within its range. On the other hand, the A332 can fly farther and carry more cargo than can the 764. Regardless, lower fuel burn and overall trip costs clearly weren't a compelling enough factor for airlines to choose the 764 over the A332. The numbers speak for themselves, 45 764's sold vs 576 A332's sold.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
As for the A333, consider the fact that some were parked last winter due to excess capacity, yet DL didn't park any 764ERs.

And? Are you implying that DL is somehow unhappy with the A333 or somehow more happy with the 764 than the A333 because they parked a few during the slow months. You've repeatedly stated that you have never heard anything negative from DL regarding the 764, the same can be said for the A333. In fact, by all accounts, DL is quite happy with their A330 fleet.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-10-14 21:37:51 and read 12554 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
In fact, why is DL giving priority to the 764ERs (second only to the 772ERs) for flat-bed installations in BusinessElite?

Because many flights from JFK to higher yielding European destinations are on 764s probably. Plus, the fact that the A330s are younger probably has something to do with it.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 23):
Key being within its range.

And with a hub at JFK, and to some extent ATL, Delta has plenty such routes. As does CO. And the 764 works very well for both of them.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: akelley728
Posted 2010-10-14 21:41:49 and read 12932 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
as tests have shown that the GEnx is the superior 787 engine
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
You have any sources to back up this odd claim?

GEnx has met its fuel consumption targets, while the Trent 1000 has been struggling.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...avweek-trent-1000-engines-get.html

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: OA412
Posted 2010-10-14 21:50:41 and read 12786 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
In fact, why is DL giving priority to the 764ERs (second only to the 772ERs) for flat-bed installations in BusinessElite? DL hasn't even yet made an annoucement to install flat beds on the A330, so I assume it won't be until at least 2014.

Perhaps because they are being used to LHR where the flat bed is needed. Also, perhaps because it's a smaller fleet that can be finished more quickly than, say, the 763. The A330's already have an angled lie-flat which is superior to the cradle seats that were in the 764, 772, and 763 fleets. IMHO, this is likely why you haven't heard anything yet regarding the A330's although word is that there is a plan in the works.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-10-14 22:40:47 and read 12613 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Delta has plenty such routes. As does CO. And the 764 works very well for both of them.

Well, this conversation has gone in a variety of directions, but let me just say that I am not trying to badmouth the 764, DL/CO's decision to buy it, or anything akin to that. This whole thread was geared towards the future of the 787 in DL's fleet, and this sidebar started with the premise that the 789 would be better for DL because it will have a lower CASM than the -8. Ultimately, CASM isn't the only factor, as the 764 debate clearly shows. Sometimes lower trip costs tip the balance in favor of a smaller (764) aircraft on certain routes. Just as they might tip the balance to the 788 vs the 789 on certain routes. Maybe many of them.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-10-14 22:54:17 and read 12506 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 27):

Well, if CASM were all that mattered, everyone would have A380s.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-10-14 23:00:57 and read 12452 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Well, if CASM were all that mattered, everyone would have A380s.

Exactly my point as well.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: Delimit
Posted 2010-10-15 02:46:07 and read 11481 times.

And many on A.net would rejoice. : )

The 788 versus 789 discussion that goes on here alway seems to get hung up on this. There seems to be a meme on this site that the 9 is somehow clearly superior because, unlike the 767 and A330, you get extra seats without taking a big hit on range.

No doubt the 9 will end up selling like hot cakes, as there are plenty of regions (Asia for example) where that will be very appealing.

But this discussion is about Delta, whose transatlantic network was built on serving lower demand secondary destinations nonstop. Higher capacity is not necessarily what they are looking for.

Ultimately, only Delta knows with any degree of certainty how many seats icantu throw profitably at those markets, but my instinct at least is that they are already right sized (we've already seen DL swap in 764s and 330s where they think they can profitably fill the seats after all).

I would not be at all surprised to see them take a good number of 788s as well as 789s.

Lastly, regarding additional 777s, remember that the 789 is an almost exact match for the 772, but should be way cheaper to fly, as it will be a much lighter plane. The only additional 777s I see them taking would be LRs, and I am stumped as to how many new places they would fly them to.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2010-10-15 03:08:10 and read 11363 times.

Some absolutely vintage cheerleading in this thread.

Fact is, nobody knows what DL is going to do, and a thread on this same subject every month is a little bit boring.

Even so, no I dont think DL will end up not operating the 788, but with they take the early NW birds with the RR donks? Unlikely. I can see them canceling them and taking more 738s instead as these seem to be more urgently needed than more widebodies.

When the time is right we'll see a big 788 and 789 order in due course, but not for a little while yet I'd have thought. The A330s are fantastic for what DL needs them for, and they wont be dumping them, no matter how much the "if it aint Boeing" crew wish they would.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2010-10-15 03:26:50 and read 11249 times.

So, maybe if DL wants to get rid of RR on 787, they buy a handful of other aircraft with Trents as compensation. Nobody suffers from having a dozen more A333... Or half a dozen I don't dare to dream.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: AA777223
Posted 2010-10-15 07:10:55 and read 9694 times.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 14):
I think the 787 will see a home at DL, but perhaps not in the numbers that might be expected.

Well then what exactly do you think DL will use to ultimately replace their massive 767 (and later) A330 fleets? I don't mean that argumentatively, but rather, I seriously am curious to know. They will need to replace those aircraft one day, and the A350 is too big. The A358 looks like it'll be a little heavy, similar to the 762 as a shrink.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
In fact, why is DL giving priority to the 764ERs (second only to the 772ERs) for flat-bed installations in BusinessElite? DL hasn't even yet made an annoucement to install flat beds on the A330, so I assume it won't be until at least 2014.

That can be explained by the market they serve, and the fact that the product there was more outdated than those on the A330. People wanna sleep. Yes, a flat bed is better than an angled one, but you can prety much sleep on either way more easily than a cradle. I've flown on all three quite a bit, and I promise it's true.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 30):
Lastly, regarding additional 777s, remember that the 789 is an almost exact match for the 772, but should be way cheaper to fly, as it will be a much lighter plane. The only additional 777s I see them taking would be LRs, and I am stumped as to how many new places they would fly them to.

I was always of the impression that the 789 was really more 764/A332/A358 sized. The B788 is really geared at the 763 sized market, is it not? The B7810/A359 are really supposed to be the true B77E comparable replacements. At least, that is what the folks in this forum would generally lead us to believe. I'm not arguing, just reiterating what is most often posted here. Feel free to elaborate or correct.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: FoxThree
Posted 2010-10-15 07:18:09 and read 9603 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 31):
Fact is, nobody knows what DL is going to do, and a thread on this same subject every month is a little bit boring.

Be careful with statements like that. I said roughly the same thing about the regular "why doesn't carrier X buy the A380" threads and got hung out to dry!

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2010-10-15 07:29:44 and read 9542 times.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 33):
I was always of the impression that the 789 was really more 764/A332/A358 sized. The B788 is really geared at the 763 sized market, is it not? The B7810/A359 are really supposed to be the true B77E comparable replacements.

No, the 789 is on par with the A333, A343, A359, and 772. The 788 is bigger than the 764ER and essentially equal to the A332 in size. If the 787-10 were offered, it would likely be larger than the 772 and seat around 320-330 in Boeing's configuration.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: CompensateMe
Posted 2010-10-15 08:00:28 and read 9206 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have their own thoughts?

Delta's probably trying to decide on which PTV AVOD entertainment system to install first before making the decision on which aircraft to take delivery of.  

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-15 09:33:20 and read 8467 times.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 36):
Delta's probably trying to decide on which PTV AVOD entertainment system to install first before making the decision on which aircraft to take delivery of.

Obviously it would be the Panasonic eX2 with the Eco 9i Smart Monitors.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 33):
That can be explained by the market they serve, and the fact that the product there was more outdated than those on the A330. People wanna sleep. Yes, a flat bed is better than an angled one, but you can prety much sleep on either way more easily than a cradle. I've flown on all three quite a bit, and I promise it's true.

There is one little flaw in your observations: The 744 fleet is getting priority over the 763ER fleet for flat-bed installations in BusinessElite and AVOD/new seats in Y. The 744s (which currently have the sloped flat seats in J) are supposed to be done in 2012, while the 763ER fleet (which currently have cradle seats in J) is supposed to be done in 2013.

Also, the A330s have an older, heavier IFE system (the Panasonic 3000i) than the 764ERs. While I wouldn't call the system outdated, if the A330s are modded soon I wouldn't be surprised that they would get an upgrade to eFX/eX2 with Eco 9i monitors.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2010-10-15 09:50:17 and read 8291 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 37):
The 744 fleet is getting priority over the 763ER fleet for flat-bed installations in BusinessElite and AVOD/new seats in Y. The 744s (which currently have the sloped flat seats in J) are supposed to be done in 2012, while the 763ER fleet (which currently have cradle seats in J) is supposed to be done in 2013.

I wouldn't say priority, just that the much smaller fleet of 74's will be completed before the much larger
763 fleet. FWIU the first 763 is suppose to go in jan for mods.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: Delimit
Posted 2010-10-15 10:02:19 and read 8182 times.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 33):
Yes, a flat bed is better than an angled one, but you can prety much sleep on either way more easily than a cradle. I've flown on all three quite a bit, and I promise it's true.

While most agree, there is a significant chunk of people (like myself) who absolutely hate angled flat and would much rather take a cradle (can't get to sleep because I feel like I am going to slide off). Full flat, however, is obviously far superior.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 35):
No, the 789 is on par with the A333, A343, A359, and 772. The 788 is bigger than the 764ER and essentially equal to the A332 in size. If the 787-10 were offered, it would likely be larger than the 772 and seat around 320-330 in Boeing's configuration.

I was under the impression that the 788 was slightly larger than a 763. So par with a 764 or 332 but slightly smaller than a 333 or 772.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 37):
There is one little flaw in your observations: The 744 fleet is getting priority over the 763ER fleet for flat-bed installations in BusinessElite and AVOD/new seats in Y. The 744s (which currently have the sloped flat seats in J) are supposed to be done in 2012, while the 763ER fleet (which currently have cradle seats in J) is supposed to be done in 2013.

This can partially be explained by the markets the 744 serves. Other than Tel Aviv (ie all of Asia other than Manila) they are at a significant product disadvantage compared to the competition.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: mayor
Posted 2010-10-15 10:12:05 and read 8081 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
As for the A333, consider the fact that some were parked last winter due to excess capacity, yet DL didn't park any 764ERs.

Could this have something to do with the fact that they needed the flat bed product on those particular routes?



In all this argument, I seem to remember hearing that the 788 was suffering from an overweight problem, therefore affecting range, whereas the 789 was not supposed thought that it would have this problem as Boeing would have fixed the problem. Can someone enlighten me?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2010-10-15 10:21:28 and read 7973 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
While converting the existing NW 787-8 orders to GEnx engines might result in some penalty, there is nothing RR can do about DL converting the NW 787-8 orders to the 777-200LR (where the GE90-110B is the exclusive engine) and adding on a separate 787-9 order with GE engines.

Since a/c transactions have so many layers of complexities, unless you have seen the signed contracts, statements like these are entirely speculative on your part.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I am 99.9% confident that DL would prefer to have 787s with GE engines, as tests have shown that the GEnx is the superior 787 engine, and the fact that DL is in love with their GE90-110B engines on their 772LR fleet.

On what basis do you make these statements with such certainty. The GEnx is "superior?" DL is “in love” with the GE90? According to who?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Actually, I am pretty sure that DL wishes they had some more 764ERs for European and South American routes due to the 764ER's CASM advantage over the 763ER.

Actually, I am pretty sure that they don’t.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
764ER has a lower fuel burn on routes within its range, and would have a lower overall trip cost. I have yet to hear or see any statement from DL that they aren't happy with their 764ERs.

If fuel burn was the only criteria in selecting aircraft, everybody would be flying Cessna 182s. The A330 has significant incremental payload abilities and, when deployed in a market with sufficient demand, will generate incremental revenues far in excess of incremental trip costs vs the 764.

I mean, come on. The market has spoken pretty clearly on this one. Furthermore, to my knowledge, DL does not usually make public comments about the relative merits of various fleet types. Certainly the DL/NW merger created a scenario where one operator now has perfect laboratory conditions for head to head comparisons of competing a/c types. However, commenting publicly on comparative operating data would be highly detrimental to relationships with both major aircraft manufacturers.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 39):
This can partially be explained by the markets the 744 serves. Other than Tel Aviv (ie all of Asia other than Manila) they are at a significant product disadvantage compared to the competition.

Absolutely correct; the decision was largely driven by the competitive landscape.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-15 10:31:10 and read 7864 times.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 41):
Actually, I am pretty sure that they don’t.

Well, if DL were to order more 767s (not saying it will happen), I would be pretty sure it would be for some more 764ERs.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2010-10-15 10:31:19 and read 7873 times.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 8):
Delta is the world's largest 767 operator. It is highly unlikely the carrier would completely walk away from the 787

I wouldn't bet all my money on it....

CEO Richard Anderson did say the new airline would order both Airbus and Boeing so I wouldn't be too surprised if the 787 was ignored in favor of A359s or A330 next-gen....

If DL was serious about the 787 surely they would have at least submitted a letter of intent by now....

[Edited 2010-10-15 10:36:44]

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: mayor
Posted 2010-10-15 10:38:42 and read 7774 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 43):
If DL was serious about the 787 they would have at least submitted a letter of intent by now....

Why would they have to? They've already got the firm orders and the options................they've probably been working with Boeing on a later delivery date.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 43):
CEO Richard Anderson did say the new airline would order both Airbus and Boeing so I wouldn't be too surprised if the 787 was ignored in favor of A359s....

Again, why? The 787 is already flying and DL will be able to determine actually how successful it is from the experiences of carriers that put them in service, earlier. When does the A350 start flying, again?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2010-10-15 10:42:19 and read 7738 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 43):
I wouldn't bet all my money on it....

CEO Richard Anderson did say the new airline would order both Airbus and Boeing so I wouldn't be too surprised if the 787 was ignored in favor of A359s....

If DL was serious about the 787 they would have at least submitted a letter of intent by now....



I wouldn't rule out your scenario, but that's why I said "highly unlikely" and not "totally impossible."

As for LOI, I wouldn't automatically assume that the longer this process draws out, the less likely it is that DL will fly the 787. I do think it reasonable to assume that Boeing probably does not want to see a scenario where DL walks away from the 787 completely. For a multitude of reasons, that would be really undesirable. But as you alluded to, that doesn't necessarily prejudice the outcome because in these kinds of matters, anything and everything can happen.

In due time, we will know the outcome.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: tristarcrazy
Posted 2010-10-15 13:16:28 and read 6553 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 44):
CEO Richard Anderson did say the new airline would order both Airbus and Boeing so I wouldn't be too surprised if the 787 was ignored in favor of A359s or A330 next-gen....

Well of course he said that, he'd be stupid to say DL was forever gonna buy Boeing or Airbus. I would think that Richard is not the sole decisonary (although he is the final??) for aircraft purchases. There is the BOD, fleet planners, Techops, etc. all have a voice and could influence a decision one way or the other. But the truth is most long time PMDL folk like Boeing. It doesn't mean they will never buy Airbus or that Airbus has a bad product, it just is what it is....

In an ATW article last week, Richard was stating that DL was more interested in upcoming single isle offerings from Airbus, Boeing and Bombardier. He also said DL would prefer a re-engine 737/A320 over a totally new design.

Quoting mayor (Reply 44):
If DL was serious about the 787 surely they would have at least submitted a letter of intent by now....

It has been stated in several articles the last couple years that DL is happy with the current widebody fleet and is in no hurry to make any changes. The current order for 18 firm 787s (inherited from NWA), although delayed, still stands. So until a change is officially announced (as stated by goldenstate) anything can happen!!

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: par13del
Posted 2010-10-15 13:42:10 and read 6487 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 43):
CEO Richard Anderson did say the new airline would order both Airbus and Boeing so I wouldn't be too surprised if the 787 was ignored in favor of A359s or A330 next-gen....

One of the reason's why the A330 started out-selling the 767 was:

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 41):
The A330 has significant incremental payload abilities and, when deployed in a market with sufficient demand, will generate incremental revenues far in excess of incremental trip costs vs the 764.

Now when you consider the fact that DL is the largest operator of 767's and the Airbus replacement A359 or A330 next-gen will be even larger with more capacity than the current A330/2/3 which are larger than the 767, one wonders where the current 767's are deployed, why DL is not operating them with high load factors leaving pax and cargo and not looking at larger a/c right now or over the past few years.
If DL does omit a 787 size a/c from their fleet their planners would be looking at increased traffic on their wide body routes and purchasing 777W's, A380's or 748i's in addition to the A358/9 would also be in order, a fleet reduction would logically follow, at least in my book.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-15 13:52:31 and read 6458 times.

Everyone should keep in mind that DL isn't really in any rush to replace their 763ER fleet, considering that they will be getting Thompson Vantage flat-bed seats in BusinessElite and Panasonic Eco 9i PTVs in Y.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-10-15 14:04:37 and read 6408 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I am 99.9% confident that DL would prefer to have 787s with GE engines, as tests have shown that the GEnx is the superior 787 engine

what tests would those be?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 48):
Everyone should keep in mind that DL isn't really in any rush to replace their 763ER fleet, considering that they will be getting Thompson Vantage flat-bed seats in BusinessElite and Panasonic Eco 9i PTVs in Y.

If I an not mistaken didn't you bring it up originally?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2010-10-15 20:29:05 and read 6069 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
And with a hub at JFK, and to some extent ATL

Isn't it the other way around?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-10-15 21:53:44 and read 5938 times.

Quoting tristarcrazy (Reply 46):
Well of course he said that, he'd be stupid to say DL was forever gonna buy Boeing or Airbus

And furthermore, that's the way it's been since the late 90s, whether he said so or not.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 50):
Isn't it the other way around?

The 764s work better on the shorter transatlantic routes (that is, JFK rather than ATL or MSP). They can work on longer routes, but are hard to beat flying to Europe from New York.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: mayor
Posted 2010-10-15 22:13:24 and read 5946 times.

Quoting tristarcrazy (Reply 46):
Quoting mayor (Reply 44):
If DL was serious about the 787 surely they would have at least submitted a letter of intent by now....

This is NOT my quote

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2010-10-16 11:18:54 and read 5641 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 47):
Now when you consider the fact that DL is the largest operator of 767's and the Airbus replacement A359 or A330 next-gen will be even larger with more capacity than the current A330/2/3 which are larger than the 767, one wonders where the current 767's are deployed, why DL is not operating them with high load factors leaving pax and cargo and not looking at larger a/c right now or over the past few years.

Good insight, and it's certainly true that in an ideal world where you could snap your fingers and make instantaneous fleet changes, DL would benefit greatly from something like turning the 21 764s into 777s. The 764 order turned out to be a highly limiting factor when one considers that if those had been 777s instead, a 777 fleet of nearly 30 aircraft would operate profitably in North Atlantic markets with heavy demand and provide much better flexibility for longhaul flying over the Pacific, especially as DL looks to restructure the TPAC network.

Of course hindsight is 20/20 and at the time the order was placed, 764s over 777s as a domestic L-1011 replacement was probably a good move. But at the end of the day DL is making the best of a fleet that frankly is a limiting factor on operational flexibility.

Quoting par13del (Reply 47):
If DL does omit a 787 size a/c from their fleet their planners would be looking at increased traffic on their wide body routes and purchasing 777W's, A380's or 748i's in addition to the A358/9 would also be in order, a fleet reduction would logically follow, at least in my book.

There is no way DL can justifiably omit a 1 for 1, equally sized 763 replacement from the fleet going forward. I do think the 788 will eventually join the DL fleet.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-16 11:32:56 and read 5614 times.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 53):
Good insight, and it's certainly true that in an ideal world where you could snap your fingers and make instantaneous fleet changes, DL would benefit greatly from something like turning the 21 764s into 777s. The 764 order turned out to be a highly limiting factor when one considers that if those had been 777s instead, a 777 fleet of nearly 30 aircraft would operate profitably in North Atlantic markets with heavy demand and provide much better flexibility for longhaul flying over the Pacific, especially as DL looks to restructure the TPAC network.

Of course hindsight is 20/20 and at the time the order was placed, 764s over 777s as a domestic L-1011 replacement was probably a good move. But at the end of the day DL is making the best of a fleet that frankly is a limiting factor on operational flexibility.

DL would not benefit at all trading in their 764ERs for 777s. The 764ER does the job just fine for Europe. DL once even flew the 764ER on ATL-SVO, with no problems at all. The truth is, the 777 is simply too much airplane to use from ATL/JFK to most of Europe. It makes sense to have a fleet of both 764ERs and 777s, and use them wherever they are most needed. I understand that you hate the 764ER with a fiery passion, however, your hatred towards the 764ER is not a valid argument to whether or not the 764ER is a vital part of Delta's fleet. The cold hard fact is that Delta is 100% satisfied with their 764ERs and does NOT wish to eliminate them or trade them in for another aircraft type.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-10-16 12:21:49 and read 5555 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 54):
The cold hard fact is that Delta is 100% satisfied with their 764ERs and does NOT wish to eliminate them or trade them in for another aircraft type.




But I think Delta is also MORE satisfied with its fleet of A332s and A333s and if they were to order more of either it would not be the 764s.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 54):
I understand that you hate the 764ER with a fiery passion, however, your hatred towards the 764ER is not a valid argument to whether or not the 764ER is a vital part of Delta's fleet.




I don't think adult members of this forum "hate" any aircraft with or without fiery passion. I certainly don't hate or love any airline or aircraft, and I guess I don't understand those who do. My 2 cents.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-10-16 12:25:00 and read 5555 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 55):
But I think Delta is also MORE satisfied with its fleet of A332s and A333s and if they were to order more of either it would not be the 764s.

Nope, that is an A.net myth. The fact that DL parked some A330s over the winter and did not park any 764ERs PROVES that DL prefers the 764ER.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2010-10-16 12:41:38 and read 5524 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 56):
Nope, that is an A.net myth. The fact that DL parked some A330s over the winter and did not park any 764ERs PROVES that DL prefers the 764ER.

Sorry. Not necessarily correct. The winter parking was due to capacity and HMV requirements (postponements) more than a preference for either aircraft.

Delta loves the 767 and the A330.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: DeltAirlines
Posted 2010-10-16 13:19:19 and read 5469 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 56):

Nope, that is an A.net myth. The fact that DL parked some A330s over the winter and did not park any 764ERs PROVES that DL prefers the 764ER.

Two different planes, two different missions. The extra capabilities of the A330-200 is not needed for many of the JFK/ATL-Europe routes vs. the 767-400.

All this proves is that Delta is choosing the best planes for the appropriate missions at the given time. As we see bases switch around, then the fleet can be even better optimized. Current 767-400 routes to South America could easily go A330 with an ATL base, given the fact that there's a lot of cargo on those planes and the A330 wins in that area.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2010-10-16 13:44:24 and read 5404 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 56):
Nope, that is an A.net myth. The fact that DL parked some A330s over the winter and did not park any 764ERs PROVES that DL prefers the 764ER.

PROVES it to who. Not apparantly to most others on this forum who do not hate or love any aircraft.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2010-10-16 13:51:21 and read 5388 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I am 99.9% confident that DL would prefer to have 787s with GE engines,
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Actually, I am pretty sure that DL wishes they had some more 764ERs for European and South American routes due to the 764ER's CASM advantage over the 763ER

Tell me, how are you so 'confident' and 'pretty sure' of what (you only think) you know what DL want.......on exactly what basis do you 'know' this?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Sorry, but that is an A.net myth.

Is it? Can you fully explain that further please?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 17):
I have not heard even once from Delta that cargo is an issue for their 764ER flights.

I don't believe anyone claimed it was any issue, except you seemingly trying to make it fit your 'argument'. However, I am curious as in what capacity would you (we) expect DL to consult you on cargo capacity/requirements of it's aircraft?

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2010-10-16 14:03:18 and read 5354 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 54):
The 764ER does the job just fine for Europe. DL once even flew the 764ER on ATL-SVO, with no problems at all. The truth is, the 777 is simply too much airplane to use from ATL/JFK to most of Europe. It makes sense to have a fleet of both 764ERs and 777s, and use them wherever they are most needed.

I would argue that the market pretty clearly decided that it makes the most sense to have a larger 777 program that encompasses high demand North Atlantic rather than break the fleet in half for a less heavy but also less versatile aircraft.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 54):
I understand that you hate the 764ER with a fiery passion, however, your hatred towards the 764ER is not a valid argument to whether or not the 764ER is a vital part of Delta's fleet.

Please point out where in this discussion or any other discussion I have ever said I "hate" the 764. I don't think I've ever said that I like or dislike the aircraft.

Unfortunately it is difficult to have a discussion when you accuse anyone who disagrees with you of "hating" the 764.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 54):
The cold hard fact is that Delta is 100% satisfied with their 764ERs and does NOT wish to eliminate them or trade them in for another aircraft type.

Where has Delta ever made any public statement to that effect. Please disclose your factual support for such a statement.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 56):
The fact that DL parked some A330s over the winter and did not park any 764ERs PROVES that DL prefers the 764ER.

No.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-10-16 14:33:39 and read 5329 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 54):
The truth is, the 777 is simply too much airplane to use from ATL/JFK to most of Europe.

Each additional seat in the 777 (30 of them, 3 in business and 27 coach) costs Delta an extra 2500 lbs. of empty weight.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 55):
But I think Delta is also MORE satisfied with its fleet of A332s and A333s and if they were to order more of either it would not be the 764s.

That depends entirely on what Delta wants to do. If they want planes to fly from the east coast to western Europe, then the 764 is pretty hard to beat. If they want to cross the Pacific, they are best off looking elsewhere.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 61):
I would argue that the market pretty clearly decided that it makes the most sense to have a larger 777 program that encompasses high demand North Atlantic rather than break the fleet in half for a less heavy but also less versatile aircraft

Delta and Continental pretty clearly disagree with "the market." And it seems to work very well for them. I don't see why they should make any apologies for why the plane that is right for them isn't right for other carriers.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: Delimit
Posted 2010-10-16 18:22:46 and read 5166 times.

This backing and forthing about 764s and A330s is rather silly when you remember this is a discussion about Delta, who has gone on record as saying, "No new planes."

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: SkyTeamTriStar
Posted 2010-10-17 09:02:12 and read 4876 times.

Notice what Richard says in the very first sentence. "......before turning to widebody replacements.
Link:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ef-executive-richard-anderson.html


Delta needs to revamp its narrowbody fleet before turning to widebody replacements. "We really need clear guidance from the manufacturers about what their intentions are in terms of innovation," Anderson says. He sees opportunities for both re-engined narrowbodies and a clean-sheet design. And while Anderson believes the "next-generation narrowbody needs to be developed", the only way to deliver 15-20% fuel efficiency improvements during the next five years is via re-engining.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: cslusarc
Posted 2010-10-17 09:46:24 and read 4807 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 63):
"No new planes."

I believe that DL will come to realize that it will need new planes to launch new growth routes with stage lengths of 12 hours or more. DL will need the 788/789 to fly routes like SEA-HKG (where a 777 or 744 offer too many seats) or DTW-China (where a 787 will allow less than daily service to be made daily more profitably).

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: Delimit
Posted 2010-10-17 10:13:03 and read 4772 times.

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 65):
I believe that DL will come to realize that it will need new planes to launch new growth routes with stage lengths of 12 hours or more. DL will need the 788/789 to fly routes like SEA-HKG (where a 777 or 744 offer too many seats) or DTW-China (where a 787 will allow less than daily service to be made daily more profitably).

I think pretty much everyone realizes "No new planes" is only a temporary thing. But once a couple years elapse the choices will be pretty obvious. The 787 and A350 will both be clearly superior choices.

DL will operate the 787. DL will very likely also operate the A350 unless Boeing does something to make the 777 more attractive against it, and even then I would honestly be unsurprised to see a 350 purchase. Specifically the 9 and 10.

Topic: RE: DL 788 Order - Convert To 772LR And Add On 789?
Username: Aesma
Posted 2010-11-01 05:34:31 and read 4255 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
there is nothing RR can do about DL converting the NW 787-8 orders to the 777-200LR

The engines have their own contract, so that's not true.


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