I'd be really surprised if they place mainline pilots into new 100 seat airplanes. 120 seat airplanes yes, but 100 seaters I really doubt.

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http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5012919/

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: OyKIE
Posted 2010-12-17 09:36:45 and read 17536 times.

According to flightglobal DL Will start analysing narrowbody replacement early Next year. Its The DC-9, MD-88, early A320 and 757 that Will be replaced.

Read more here.


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-narrowbody-analysis-in-early.html

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: centre
Posted 2010-12-17 09:43:33 and read 17510 times.

Last week? Delta CEO has already stated that a 737NEO will not cut for them. So, unless Boeing offers a 737 replacement program, we might see Delta walking to Airbus and/or Bombardier.
So far Boeing has no direct competitor for the A321NEO to replace the mass fleet of 757.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-12-17 09:56:31 and read 17411 times.

Not really a surprise. That article only mentions part of Richard Anderson's quote.

The key part to the statement is "study."

Elsewhere during the investor day presentation they mentioned to their Capex spend and fleet needs, saying that they are good through 2012 with their current narrowbody fleet and do not anticipate any new aircraft deliveries until 2013.

This continues to align with the statements that the DC-9-50s will be around until 2013.

Considering there are lead times involved, it makes sense to figure this all out in 2011 with targeted deliveries in early 2013.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-12-17 09:59:48 and read 17390 times.

Quoting centre (Reply 1):
Delta CEO has already stated that a 737NEO will not cut for them.

proof?

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-12-17 10:04:33 and read 17331 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):

Delta can order 737NGs in 2011 and start getting them in 2012/2013 due to options. IIRC they could have all 60 options by 2015. (but i think that is if they take bird in 2012)

When....ah better not even waste the brain space, Delta wont be getting a 100 seater in my life time.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: lucky777
Posted 2010-12-17 10:09:49 and read 17288 times.

Well, strictly from a ramp rat's viewpoint, the A320/19 are vastly superior to either the MD88/90 or 737 product...of course i'm sure this won't factor into any decision Delta makes....but i for one hope they choose Airbus if for no other reason than this. LOL!!!

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-12-17 10:11:34 and read 17271 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 4):
Delta can order 737NGs in 2011 and start getting them in 2012/2013 due to options. IIRC they could have all 60 options by 2015. (but i think that is if they take bird in 2012) When....ah better not even waste the brain space, Delta wont be getting a 100 seater in my life time.

Perhaps we can see some more 738s to replace the DC-9-50s and MD-88s, and some 739ERs to replace some of the older 752s.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: jsquared
Posted 2010-12-17 10:15:05 and read 17229 times.

Quoting centre (Reply 1):
Delta CEO has already stated that a 737NEO will not cut for them. So, unless Boeing offers a 737 replacement program, we might see Delta walking to Airbus and/or Bombardier.

Why would the A320NEO be acceptable while a hypothetical 737NEO would not?

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-12-17 10:15:29 and read 17230 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):

Perhaps we can see some more 738s to replace the DC-9-50s and MD-88s, and some 739ERs to replace some of the older 752s.

IMHO Delta will do that as they wait for the A320NEO/737NEO/Y1.

60 737s can get the DC-9-50s, a handful of 757s/M88/320s out.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: enilria
Posted 2010-12-17 10:26:17 and read 17145 times.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
According to flightglobal DL Will start analysing narrowbody replacement early Next year. Its The DC-9, MD-88, early A320 and 757 that Will be replaced.

It just struck me how many times I've seen a headline "

Quoting centre (Reply 1):
we might see Delta walking to Airbus and/or Bombardier.
Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: MadDogJT8D
Posted 2010-12-17 10:34:05 and read 17080 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Perhaps we can see some more 738s to replace the DC-9-50s and MD-88s, and some 739ERs to replace some of the older 752s.

I can see DL ordering additional 737/A32X series aircraft to replace the MD-88 and some older A32X as well as the older 757s. Personally I think you are right about 738's for MD-88's and 739ER's for 752, but I'm not so sure about the DC-9-50's. Those airplanes are at kind of a unique seating capacity that I think DL would really like to maintain in the future in order to right-size markets as they have done over the past year or two. I think they could potentially go with an E-190 or if someone is really listening, the 717's that have come available from Mexicana's demise.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2010-12-17 10:42:23 and read 16993 times.

Any reason to believe that they won't buy used aircraft and look to round the remaining MD-90's until a true next generation narrowbody comes out? That idea isn't mentioned in the article, but they seem to have open mind to the second hand market.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: Delimit
Posted 2010-12-17 10:47:39 and read 16942 times.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
According to flightglobal DL Will start analysing narrowbody replacement early Next year. Its The DC-9, MD-88, early A320 and 757 that Will be replaced.

My bold.

Which would make sense, as that will have given Boeing time to make it's intentions known re: 737 re-engine or not.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 4):
Delta can order 737NGs in 2011 and start getting them in 2012/2013 due to options.

Ordering means deposits and financing, which runs counter to their guidance from the recent presentation.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: sectflyer
Posted 2010-12-17 10:48:20 and read 16930 times.

The perfect 757 replacement? How about the 757?

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-12-17 10:54:39 and read 16877 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 4):
Delta can order 737NGs in 2011 and start getting them in 2012/2013 due to options. IIRC they could have all 60 options by 2015. (but i think that is if they take bird in 2012)
Quoting Delimit (Reply 12):
Ordering means deposits and financing, which runs counter to their guidance from the recent presentation.

I highly doubt you will see a new delivery until 2013.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 11):
Any reason to believe that they won't buy used aircraft and look to round the remaining MD-90's until a true next generation narrowbody comes out? That idea isn't mentioned in the article, but they seem to have open mind to the second hand market.

That is the plan to get them through 2011 & 2012 as was what they stated in to the financial community the other day.

Expeditures on aircraft is very low in 2011, less than in 2010 where the majority went to used MD-90s.
Some additional second-hand aircraft are expected in 2011, less than 2010 though.
The largest chunk of capital improvements for 2011 is going toward aircraft modifications
Expeditures for aircraft will be up slightly in 2012 compared to 2011, but still not as much as 2010.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-12-17 11:00:39 and read 16845 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 12):

Ordering means deposits and financing, which runs counter to their guidance from the recent presentation.

I didn't see anything that said they would not order any aircraft.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):

I highly doubt you will see a new delivery until 2013.

I don't.
Now, NBs? ok maybe but I would be shocked if Delta doesn't get T7s by 2012.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: atlengineer
Posted 2010-12-17 11:02:13 and read 16805 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):
hat is the plan to get them through 2011 & 2012 as was what they stated in to the financial community the other day.

Expeditures on aircraft is very low in 2011, less than in 2010 where the majority went to used MD-90s.
Some additional second-hand aircraft are expected in 2011, less than 2010 though.
The largest chunk of capital improvements for 2011 is going toward aircraft modifications
Expeditures for aircraft will be up slightly in 2012 compared to 2011, but still not as much as 2010.

Remember, in 2010, DL took delivery of 2 B777LR's and 2 B738's. Even at 75 percent of that, it will buy a lot of used MD90's at 8-10 million each.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: Delimit
Posted 2010-12-17 11:02:56 and read 16804 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 15):
I didn't see anything that said they would not order any aircraft.

When you order you have to put money down and you take on debt. They said they wouldn't be doing that.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-12-17 11:12:31 and read 16740 times.

Quoting MadDogJT8D (Reply 10):
I can see DL ordering additional 737/A32X series aircraft to replace the MD-88 and some older A32X as well as the older 757s. Personally I think you are right about 738's for MD-88's and 739ER's for 752, but I'm not so sure about the DC-9-50's. Those airplanes are at kind of a unique seating capacity that I think DL would really like to maintain in the future in order to right-size markets as they have done over the past year or two. I think they could potentially go with an E-190 or if someone is really listening, the 717's that have come available from Mexicana's demise.

Actually the 717/E190 is smaller than the DC-9-50, which is about the same size as an A319 or 73G. However, the 73G costs almost as much to operate as a 738 which holds more passengers and thus DL can make more money. The only reason DL bought 10 73Gs was for routes that required the 73G's additional range. I don't see DL buying any more 73Gs nor A319s.

Quoting sectflyer (Reply 13):
The perfect 757 replacement? How about the 757?

Most (if not all) of the routes flown by the older 752s are well within the range of the 739ER. The 752s that are used on transatlantic routes are newer builds.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-12-17 11:19:51 and read 16687 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 17):
They said they wouldn't be doing that.

Where did they say they wouldn't be doing so? Now i didn't get to listen to the full 5 hours worth of tape yet, but I didn't see a slide that said they wouldn't put any capital into new aircraft, all they say about debt is paying more off. (and i will listen to the hole thing at some point and if they say they wont put any capital into new aircraft I will be more than happy to say i was wrong. )

Oh, and ordering airplanes doesn't = debt. They could lease, pay the down payment with cash, and IIRC if you convert options(like i said) they have already paid most (if not all) of the down payment on the aircraft.

Also to get airplanes in 2012/2013 you have to place an order soon.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2010-12-17 11:21:46 and read 16672 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 15):
I don't.
Now, NBs? ok maybe but I would be shocked if Delta doesn't get T7s by 2012.

They've said they have no immediate needs for more international aircraft and are not planning to any in 2011 or 2012.

Now, that being said, at first glance it looks like the fleet is going to be heavily utilized during summer 2011. However, there will be a lot of mod work going on during that time as well. They're only growing ASMs 3% in 2011.

The growth in (assuming there is some) in 2012 appears to be supported by capacity freed-up by mod work being completed, not new aircraft.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: LAXtoATL
Posted 2010-12-17 11:52:43 and read 16388 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 17):
When you order you have to put money down and you take on debt.

False.

It all depends on the terms agreed to by the airline and manufacturer, but typically no money changes hands until the manufacturer is ready for production.

Note: DL has 787s on order and no money has been put down and no new debt as a result.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: NWAROOSTER
Posted 2010-12-17 12:03:27 and read 16224 times.

Delta will acquire every MD-90-30 aircraft it can get , except the Saudi Arabian aircraft. They have very different cockpits. If 717s would start showing up in large enough numbers, I think they may acquire some of them. Delta is basically letting the manufactures know they are interested in new narrow body aircraft. Build an aircraft that fits "Deltas" needs and Delta will order new aircraft. Delta is paying off debt to possibly acquire a stake in another airline, if a suitable opportunity appears.
Delta, also, is probably trying to reduce it's debt expenses.   

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: catiii
Posted 2010-12-17 12:08:37 and read 16128 times.

Quoting jsquared (Reply 7):
Why would the A320NEO be acceptable while a hypothetical 737NEO would not?

I'm not sold that this is the case, but let me posit a theory: Delta has been in a tiff with Boeing over Boeing's extension of Ex-Im financing for Dleta's foreign competitors. The letter below, posted on the ATA website, goes into it. I wonder if DL is making a point on that front by talking up the foreign manufacturers:

http://www.airlines.org/PublicPolicy...ubsidizingRichForeignAirlines.aspx

On September 16, I sent you a short note and article about a subject of great concern to U.S. airlines – the growing flood of official export credits being extended by governments in aircraft-manufacturing countries to support sales of aircraft to our airline competitors. These subsidies are provided by the U.S. Export-Import Bank in the United States, and export credit agencies in Europe, Canada and Brazil. We explained the market distortions adversely affecting U.S. airlines, and expressed our fear that current negotiations to achieve a new “Aircraft Sector Understanding” among these countries and others at the OECD will make an already bad situation worse.

Subsequently, The Boeing Company circulated a letter to you and other Members of Congress that completely mischaracterizes our concerns and the position that we have urged the administration to take in the OECD negotiations. We wish to take this opportunity to set the record straight.

We have no desire to harm Boeing, a fine company with which all of our members have a close business relationship. We do not think Boeing will be hurt if credit subsidies to healthy foreign airlines are curtailed. In the last few weeks, Boeing announced more than 100 new orders for large commercial aircraft. Boeing clearly does not need these subsidies to support its sales; neither do its foreign airline customers. Here are some key facts of which you should be aware:

Ex-Im Bank-subsidized financing ($8.6 billion last year) is going to many foreign airlines that are financially strong competitors of U.S. airlines, have ample access to commercial financing and do not need below-market export financing. Beneficiaries include nine of the 10 most profitable airlines based outside of the United States and the Airbus home countries in Europe. Examples include Emirates Air, Singapore Airlines, WestJet in Canada, Korean Airlines, Qantas, and others. These airlines now operate more than 50 percent of the capacity on routes to and from the United States.

These government subsidies provide our foreign competitors with hundreds of millions of dollars in benefits by enabling below-market financing. For example, in 2009, both Delta Airlines and Emirates Air secured financing for deliveries of three Boeing 777 models aircraft. Because of Ex-Im Bank support, however, Emirates secured a vastly superior interest rate from its lenders, and we estimate that Emirates realized an estimated $100 million more than Delta in loan proceeds. Export financing has been estimated by Airbus to equate to a 7 percent reduction in the cost of an aircraft, an estimate confirmed by the economic consulting
firm LECG.

The Boeing letter states that our claims are “without merit” and that we advocate that Ex-Im Bank should “dramatically curtail” its credit support for Boeing sales. Our position is fully stated in the attached letter, which we sent to Secretary Geithner, Ex-Im Bank President Hochberg and other senior administration officials on August 16.

What that letter shows, and what we have consistently advocated to administration officials, is that U.S. airlines support the negotiation of a revised OECD agreement under which all participating countries mutually agree to step back from the subsidy war in which they are engaged. The current race to provide the most subsidies has no victor, but it counts U.S. airlines – and potentially taxpayers – among its victims. Surely it cannot be good policy to argue that

Ex-Im Bank and its counterparts should maintain, even increase, their subsidies because they make money, even at the expense of other U.S. exporters.

Boeing has been a leader in the fight to rid the aircraft sector of unfair, subsidized competition in the aircraft-manufacturing sector. We believe the same principled stand should be followed by Boeing when it comes to other subsidies that artificially create and support sales of aircraft. There is no difference in the nature of the distortion, though the adverse impact may fall on different U.S. companies and workers.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2010-12-17 12:33:03 and read 15711 times.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 5):
Well, strictly from a ramp rat's viewpoint, the A320/19 are vastly superior to either the MD88/90 or 737 product...of course i'm sure this won't factor into any decision Delta makes....but i for one hope they choose Airbus if for no other reason than this. LOL!!!

Interesting, please explain the differences of the two.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-12-17 12:35:28 and read 16257 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 20):
They've said they have no immediate needs for more international aircraft and are not planning to any in 2011 or 2012.

I have not seen them say such a thing for 2012.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 20):
However, there will be a lot of mod work going on during that time as well

No.
Once again, Delta will not have ANY widebody aircraft in mods during S11.
The 777s will be done by then, the 747s will start in the fall, the 764/76Ts will be done by S11 and the 76U/G/Ls will start late 2011/early 2012.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 20):
Now, that being said, at first glance it looks like the fleet is going to be heavily utilized during summer 2011

The 777/747s will be very tight. IMHO they will have to shift some stuff around because they will be a little to tight on 747s.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 20):
They're only growing ASMs 3% in 2011.

and most of that growth is thanks to 777/747 adds.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 20):
The growth in (assuming there is some) in 2012 appears to be supported by capacity freed-up by mod work being completed, not new aircraft.

read above. Delta will have less aircraft in S12 than S11, but they will only have a few lines of 767s being done.

So again, unless Delta is going to sit pretty for 2012, which IMO wouldn't be wise because UA will have 787s rolling in by then, they will have to order new 777s, or find some 2nd hand 747s. (something i wouldn't count on.)

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: yakflyer
Posted 2010-12-17 13:26:08 and read 15575 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
I'd be really surprised if they place mainline pilots into new 100 seat airplanes. 120 seat airplanes yes, but 100 seaters I really doubt.

It's all a matter of economics. I seriously doubt any of the major airlines will get relief on scope, so anything beyond what is currently allowed will not happen. If it makes economic sense to operate 100 seat airplanes you will see mainline pilots fly them. If the pilot cost factor is too much to be over come, those companies who are planning to offer 100 seat planes better not use forecast sales in the US domestic markets to justify their decision to build those planes.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: flyibaby
Posted 2010-12-17 13:50:56 and read 15627 times.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 22):
Build an aircraft that fits "Deltas" needs and Delta will order new aircraft

Yeah - I don't see that happening. I mean, DL was able to get the 764 - exactly built for their needs and how many frames did they actually take? CO took a few too, but not enough really to warrant designing an airframe.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: par13del
Posted 2010-12-17 13:58:49 and read 15483 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 23):
Delta has been in a tiff with Boeing over Boeing's extension of Ex-Im financing for Dleta's foreign competitors.

Hmmmmm

Quoting catiii (Reply 23):
Boeing has been a leader in the fight to rid the aircraft sector of unfair, subsidized competition in the aircraft-manufacturing sector.

Ex-Im bank is a US government entity, what exactly are they saying, that if Boeing refuses to sell a/c to countries obtaining financing by EX-Im bank that those countries will simply obtain financing to buy Boeing a/c elsewhere, my money is on them getting financing from some European entity to purchase Airbus a/c.

DL needs to take up their fight with the correct sources, I can imagine the headlines now.
CNN just announced that the US trade deficit narrowed to 38+ billion.
DL demands that the US government stop assisting US companies with export financing.

US carriers have been in a financial hole since 9/11, a number have used Chpt.11 - including DL - to lower cost by cancelling leases, union contracts and share holders wealth. They are still struggling while international carriers have fared better, so maybe they are looking at a new source of a/c financing since Chpt.11 may not yield any more benefits.
I do not see how this would ever fly, the US Ex-Im bank will not finance Airbus purchases since their reason for existence is to support US companies. I would be shocked if the charter, rules or regulations which created the Ex-Im bank allowed financing of local resident US companies purchasing US domestic products, the EU would have been on that years ago. All DL seems to be trying to do is to prevent other countries from purchasing Boeing a/c, it may not be their intent but countries purchase a/c generally where they get the best deal, which usually comes with financing.

One thing we know, they will have international support for this venture, a number of international folks regard Chpt.11 as a US government subsidy, they would have preferred DL, CO, UA etc to die, but in this venture, they wil have support. Nothing like a level playing field for Boeing and Airbus to compete.

In that regard I would say that in the negotiations both sides must use the same sources, so if RLI is legal, it must be used on both sides of the pond, if NASA research grants are leagal, the EU must create their own NASA and operate it in the same fashion, if EU governments own share in EADS/Airbus, the US Government must onw shares in Boeing, Lockheed, etc. after all, that's is the only way to be sure that both side are doing the same thing.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-12-17 14:12:42 and read 15355 times.

Quoting flyibaby (Reply 27):
but not enough really to warrant designing an airframe.

The 764ER didn't cost much to develop; Boeing would have lost two important customers to Airbus if Boeing told DL and CO to "suck it up and buy some 777s" to replace their aging widebody trijets. Based on your statement, you basically think it would have been wiser for Boeing to screw two important customers and let them flee to Airbus.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: keesje
Posted 2010-12-17 14:15:16 and read 15325 times.


“There is constantly innovation in this industry, and we need that innovation. So we think the manufacturers need to re-engine these airplanes and give us the benefit of that innovation,” Anderson told Aviation Week. “We have very aggressive CO2 reduction goals, and part of that is to have the engine technology that will result in reduced fuel burn over time, so that we can meet our CO2 reduction goals.”

September 21, 2010.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20Future%20For%20787&channel=comm

“Like everyone else, we’ll look closer at the A320 to see if it might merit deeper consideration for our long-term fleet plans,” Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson said late yesterday in a weekly recorded message to employees.

“We wish Boeing would do the same, but it doesn’t look like the 737 will have much innovation in the coming years,” Anderson said. Atlanta-based Delta is the second-biggest U.S. airline.

December 4, 2010.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...0-with-new-engines-delta-says.html

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: BretonRLong
Posted 2010-12-17 14:26:21 and read 15169 times.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 5):
Well, strictly from a ramp rat's viewpoint, the A320/19 are vastly superior to either the MD88/90 or 737 product...of course i'm sure this won't factor into any decision Delta makes....but i for one hope they choose Airbus if for no other reason than this. LOL!!!

Why is the A320/19 superior to the 737?

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: woodsboy
Posted 2010-12-17 14:34:45 and read 15010 times.

At this point in Delta's post bankrupsy evolution it makes perfect sense to look to the second hard market for aircraft that are the right size- or close enough with low acquisition costs not requiring new loans that can be relatively easy to add to the fleets as opposed to waiting for 3+ years for newly ordered aircraft that as we know, arent ordered yet so that horizon for delivery is most likely further out than 3 years.

The MD-90s are a great short-medium term choice that are CHEAP, maybe the 717 will also be able to fill a gap left by the departure of the DC-9-30s and 50s, no doubt these idle 717 from various sources are going to be......1/4 the cost of a new similar sized airplane and have many many years left in them. Just a thought- if they decided to take 717s would taking the Saudi MD-90s all of a sudden make more sense due to the common flightdeck of the two?

As for replacing the older 757s, I never saw the 737-900ER as being comparable enough to really replace the 752. The 739 is stretched to its absolute limits on long segments and often load limited at a point where the 752 is not at all maxed out. It was discussed though that the newer 752s are not included in the phase out and will continue doing the longer ETOPS transatlantic work so the 737-900ER would not have to fill that role. I always remember that the 737-900ER's range is less than 200 miles further than a 738 so that isnt really much of an extended range and the A321's maximum range is less than the 739ER, more on par with the 738. So right now, there isnt anything that actually replaces the 752 except a newer 752??!! Maybe its time to look into a re-engine program for the 752!

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: 328JET
Posted 2010-12-17 14:39:17 and read 15002 times.

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 32):
So right now, there isnt anything that actually replaces the 752 except a newer 752??!! Maybe its time to look into a re-engine program for the 752!

I think the order to replace the B752 will go to europe - for the A321NEO.

But the rest will be covered by additional B737-800s or B737NEOs.

Delta will stay a loyal customer to both B and A and will benefit from using both products!

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-12-17 14:45:00 and read 14905 times.

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 32):
So right now, there isnt anything that actually replaces the 752 except a newer 752??!!

What's wrong with that? It isn't like tons of 757s are just sitting around, but there are mid-1990s and newer examples out there.

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 32):
Maybe its time to look into a re-engine program for the 752!

Look all you want, but you won't see a suitable engine.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: keesje
Posted 2010-12-17 15:28:02 and read 14509 times.

Quoting BretonRLong (Reply 31):
Quoting lucky777 (Reply 5):
Well, strictly from a ramp rat's viewpoint, the A320/19 are vastly superior to either the MD88/90 or 737 product...of course i'm sure this won't factor into any decision Delta makes....but i for one hope they choose Airbus if for no other reason than this. LOL!!!

Why is the A320/19 superior to the 737?

Cargo bay height, for a ramp rat  

Delta (NWA) is a long term prospect for the CSeries..

I think the direct operating costs of new wingletted A321s over some of the (very) 757s would be impressive. Let alone the NEOs.


This beauty is in her 27th year of service. Many 75s were scrapped already

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: par13del
Posted 2010-12-17 15:36:57 and read 14346 times.

Quoting keesje (Reply 30):
“There is constantly innovation in this industry, and we need that innovation.

The quote from the DL exec statement.

I guess that explains why they have back tracked on the NW 787 purchase, not much innovation there.
Just goes to show that Leahy and other's are on to something, we just prefer to hear the same stuff fron "other" more credible sources.  

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-12-17 15:40:30 and read 14301 times.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 33):
Delta will stay a loyal customer to both B and A and will benefit from using both products!

However, should DL order from Airbus, they would be forefeiting their preferential pricing from Boeing and be forced to pay list prices from there on.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: keesje
Posted 2010-12-17 15:48:20 and read 14223 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 36):
I guess that explains why they have back tracked on the NW 787 purchase, not much innovation there.

Delta were early customer for the 787 and needed the full original range and efficiency, with a good cargo load. The first 787 run will have better applications. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...g-deliver-the-787-within-spec.html

Quoting par13del (Reply 36):
Just goes to show that Leahy and other's are on to something, we just prefer to hear the same stuff fron "other" more credible sources.

Then Anderson?

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: DLdiamondboy
Posted 2010-12-17 15:56:45 and read 14027 times.

[quote=1337Delta764,reply=18]Most (if not all) of the routes flown by the older 752s are well within the range of the 739ER. The 752s that are used on transatlantic routes are newer builds.[/

Most of the DL TATL 757's are the Ex TWA birds. I have seen them used on domestic routes such as ATL-DEN, ATL-PHX. They stil have TWA reg since AA and DL did not change the reg #.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2010-12-17 15:58:38 and read 14026 times.

Quoting DLdiamondboy (Reply 39):
Most of the DL TATL 757's are the Ex TWA birds. I have seen them used on domestic routes such as ATL-DEN, ATL-PHX. They stil have TWA reg since AA and DL did not change the reg #.

The ex-TWA 752s are 1996-2000 builds, so they are hardly in need of replacement.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: Goblin211
Posted 2010-12-17 15:59:11 and read 14034 times.

If you ask me, i think DL should just get more 757s and forget this hassle. i don't see why they want to get the NEOs except for fuel efficiency. probably a valid reason but for some reason i don't think it'll work out w/ them. with all these orders for planes both Boeing and Airbus won't be able to deliver. Therefore, a couple more 757 orders should be done as a plan b.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: lucky777
Posted 2010-12-17 16:41:19 and read 13601 times.

Quoting keesje (Reply 35):
Why is the A320/19 superior to the 737?
Quoting keesje (Reply 35):
Cargo bay height, for a ramp rat

Indeed, keesje....plus the floors on the A320/19's are flat and very smooth...whereas all of the carpets on the 737's have been ripped out, and bin 3 of an -800 is VEEERRRYYYYYY long and it has a good deal of slant to it. The floors of the MD's are terrible as well, seems you can't slide a bag more than a couple feet without something catching on it...and the carpets in the MD88's were removed as well, along with most of the PMDL 757 carpets. The life of a ramper....LOL!!!

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: Dash9
Posted 2010-12-17 17:07:46 and read 13220 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 37):

However, should DL order from Airbus, they would be forefeiting their preferential pricing from Boeing and be forced to pay list prices from there on.

No one pay list price, period.

Beside, should Delta order Airbus in 2011, do you really think that Boeing would retaliate later on and refuse a good order from Delta just because they are pissed?? Corporations are not human, there is no emotion, just business. Pick any big Airbus client (i.e. Air Canada), I bet you anything that Boeing would welcome them anytime for a big narrowbody order, regardless of the fact that AC went Airbus last time.

Topic: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: dl767captain
Posted 2010-12-17 17:14:34 and read 13121 times.

I don't know if Delta wants to wait for the A320NEO, or even a 737NEO to get going. Maybe some 738s for MD80 and DC9 replacement, and maybe even some 737-900ERs to replace 757s on routes other than transcon. But wow that's a lot of planes for DL to replace. I'm sure AA won't be far behind, this is kind of Boeing's to lose.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: Blueman87
Posted 2010-12-17 19:06:51 and read 12073 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Perhaps we can see some more 738s to replace the DC-9-50s and MD-88s, and some 739ERs to replace some of the older 752s.

hopefully the 739ER and 737-800 with Sky Interior

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: catiii
Posted 2010-12-17 19:54:00 and read 11709 times.

One other technical question that those who actually work in the industry may be able to answer for me:

As a business traveler (who for now exclusively flies Delta out of my home in NYC), I have come to rely on things like WiFi, AVOD and seatback IFE, satellite TV and radio, etc. My guess would be that the aircraft on the used market (the used MD-90'sm MD-80's, 757's, 320's) were not designed with electrical capacity to support these kinds of demands whereas newer aircraft like the 787 and 380 were. Any truth to that, and if so, what does that mean for Delta's onboard product moving forward?

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-12-17 20:26:13 and read 11480 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 37):
Quoting 328JET (Reply 33):
Delta will stay a loyal customer to both B and A and will benefit from using both products!

However, should DL order from Airbus, they would be forefeiting their preferential pricing from Boeing and be forced to pay list prices from there on.

No way, IMHO. That would be suicide for Boeing.

Quoting Dash9 (Reply 43):
Pick any big Airbus client (i.e. Air Canada), I bet you anything that Boeing would welcome them anytime for a big narrowbody order, regardless of the fact that AC went Airbus last time.

Of course. Which is why AC has 777/787 orders by the fistful.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: BMI727
Posted 2010-12-17 20:27:21 and read 11451 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 37):
they would be forefeiting their preferential pricing from Boeing and be forced to pay list prices from there on.

That is not the case.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: KaiGywer
Posted 2010-12-17 20:38:28 and read 11385 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 46):
My guess would be that the aircraft on the used market (the used MD-90'sm MD-80's, 757's, 320's) were not designed with electrical capacity to support these kinds of demands whereas newer aircraft like the 787 and 380 were. Any truth to that, and if so, what does that mean for Delta's onboard product moving forward?

Well, they installed it in their current fleet, including all of the above aircraft, and even the antique DC9  

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: ericaasen
Posted 2010-12-17 20:39:54 and read 11376 times.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 42):
Indeed, keesje....plus the floors on the A320/19's are flat and very smooth...whereas all of the carpets on the 737's have been ripped out, and bin 3 of an -800 is VEEERRRYYYYYY long and it has a good deal of slant to it. The floors of the MD's are terrible as well, seems you can't slide a bag more than a couple feet without something catching on it...and the carpets in the MD88's were removed as well, along with most of the PMDL 757 carpets. The life of a ramper....LOL!!!

Yeah, I second that, plus I'm not a fan of the inward opening doors. You lose a lot of room by having to keep the door area clear. But, I will say that bin 3 on the 738 is like a black hole, you have go some to cube it out.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: catiii
Posted 2010-12-17 20:40:56 and read 11369 times.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 49):
Well, they installed it in their current fleet, including all of the above aircraft, and even the antique DC9

Which MD-88's and DC-9's have AVOD, seatback IFE, satellite TV and radio?

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: dtw9
Posted 2010-12-17 20:49:27 and read 11324 times.

Delta is not going to order more 737-800's or 700's. Except for a couple of aircraft ,they have been selling all of their -800 deliveries as soon as they come off the line for the last couple of years, and have said they don't make money with the -700's. The MD-88's are being used as back-fill for DC-9-30/40 routes with MD-90's back-filling the MD-80 ,and taking over select A320 routes. Delta made the decision to buy up used MD-90's instead of taking new 737-800's, thus lowering Capital expenditures so they can concentrate on lowering their debt ratio. At 160 seats the MD's will do just fine until Delta makes it's selection for new narrow-bodies. I don't foresee any "NEW" narrow-body deliveries until 2016-17 at the earliest. Delta is also deciding on cockpit upgrades for its MD80/90 and 757 fleets. It will boil down to ROI as to whether these upgrades happen or not. As far as Delta ordering A320NEO,who knows. What says that Boeing isn't going to wait until Airbus is fully committed to the NEO to announce that they will go with a "clean sheet" design. There's alot of aircraft with a seat range between 130 and 220 that are going to need replacing in the next seven to twenty years, and Boeing is not going to turn it's back on that. Numerous airlines and Boeing/Airbus are going to put their collective ideas together and come up with the best solution to the replacement of these aircraft and that doesn't happen overnight.As the OP stated, Delta will start "STUDYING" it's narrow-body options next year, nowhere have they stated they will be "ORDERING" next year or the year after. PS. Depending on whether the cockpit upgrades happen, don't count those Saudi MD-90's out just yet.

[Edited 2010-12-17 20:55:19]

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: stitch
Posted 2010-12-17 20:50:41 and read 11285 times.

737-800s make sense for near-to-mid-term replacements, but I would expect the A321-200(neo) would be a better choice for the 757 replacement as it would give DL more flexibility and capability than the 737-900ER.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: BretonRLong
Posted 2010-12-17 21:26:01 and read 11046 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 36):
Quoting keesje (Reply 30):
“There is constantly innovation in this industry, and we need that innovation.

I definitely agree with this. Even though I am a big fan of the Boeing product the challenge from these other companies in the industry is exactly what the consumer/airline needs for continuous future improvement.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: Stabilator
Posted 2010-12-17 21:59:26 and read 10833 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
I'd be really surprised if they place mainline pilots into new 100 seat airplanes. 120 seat airplanes yes, but 100 seaters I really doubt.

I'm not sure where you get the notion DL pilots will give that much scope away. I never see that happening. The main thing on all mainline pilot's agendas is scope. They do not want to see the 76-100 seat farmed out to regionals. If anything, they will fight tooth and nail to gain back flying.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2010-12-17 22:20:50 and read 10736 times.

Quoting centre (Reply 1):
So, unless Boeing offers a 737 replacement program, we might see Delta walking to Airbus and/or Bombardier.

The later would be a program game change. Alas the DC-9-30s are gone... so there goes the C100 natural fit.   

Today, the A321NEO is the most likely for 757 replacement... Not for all routes, but for what the A321NEO isn't suitible, the 738 is 'good enough.' (And it isn't like DL doesn't have a number of those...)

This order is going to be HUGE. Boeing, Airbus, and Bombardier had better sharpen their pencils. I'm not aware of a similar size order due in the next three years. UA might be close, but not quite of this magnitude. To my understanding, LH might order a 73G/A319/C300 sized aircraft, but 1/3rd of the numbers DL is talking here (due to LH's A321/738 orders already in place).

Only WN *might* place an order of similar size in the next three years that I am aware of.

Quoting keesje (Reply 35):
Delta (NWA) is a long term prospect for the CSeries..

I think the direct operating costs of new wingletted A321s over some of the (very) 757s would be impressive. Let alone the NEOs.

If DL still had DC-9-30s, I would have more hope for the C-series. It is not out of this competition, but it is a bit 'small in gauge' for what I perceive to be DL's future narrowbody fleet.

Between DL and WN, this could push Boeing to a 738/739NEO.   

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: TSS
Posted 2010-12-17 22:25:53 and read 10686 times.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 52):
Delta is also deciding on cockpit upgrades for its MD-80/90 and 757 fleets.
Quoting dtw9 (Reply 52):
Depending on whether the cockpit upgrades happen, don't count those Saudi MD-90's out just yet.

Any specifics on the proposed MD-80/90 cockpit upgrades? Bringing all of them up to a common standard type rating makes sense, and it would seem that using an existing yet more modern cockpit layout and component set would eliminate a lot of certification hassles and expense. Following that line of thinking, the next obvious question is which DC-9 descendent has the most up-to-date cockpit that could serve as a template for this upgrade: The standard MD-90s, the Saudi MD-90s, or the 717s? Or would it be easier in the long run to go with an entirely new cockpit utilizing the latest avionics across the board?

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-12-17 22:44:00 and read 10597 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 56):
This order is going to be HUGE. Boeing, Airbus, and Bombardier had better sharpen their pencils. I'm not aware of a similar size order due in the next three years. UA might be close, but not quite of this magnitude. To my understanding, LH might order a 73G/A319/C300 sized aircraft, but 1/3rd of the numbers DL is talking here (due to LH's A321/738 orders already in place).

Only WN *might* place an order of similar size in the next three years that I am aware of.

It's not clear to me that this will be a "huge" order, as they are discussing replacing older frames. While ultimately they will replace hundreds of aircraft, it might be that this is an interim order of NEO's to get them to the next all-new narrowbody, when they would then go full out on an order.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2010-12-18 01:26:34 and read 9962 times.

I'm curious to know what size of the MD-88 fleet is in DL's midterm future plans? DL has started buying off leased frames, can we expect a greater amount of the fleet to be owned outright?

Separate point on the narrowbody future:

DL mgmt had a team of folks work closely with MDC during the development of the MD-88 and MD-90 aircraft. I can certainly see them doing the same for whichever manufacturer they award the majority of their contract to. Ultimately, I expect to see WN, AA, and DL help shape the development of Y1 for Boeing.

Quoting TSS (Reply 57):
which DC-9 descendent has the most up-to-date cockpit that could serve as a template for this upgrade: The standard MD-90s, the Saudi MD-90s, or the 717s?



The 717, no question. By upgrading to this standard, commonality could exist between the MD-subfleets - (including MD-88, -90, -90 Saudi frames, 717). For pure enthusiast reasons, I hope DL goes this route. Since it has a business case as well, perhaps Anderson will consider.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: scbriml
Posted 2010-12-18 01:37:57 and read 9942 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 37):
However, should DL order from Airbus, they would be forefeiting their preferential pricing from Boeing and be forced to pay list prices from there on.

Delta would forefeit nothing from Boeing for buying Airbus.   

They most certainly wouldn't pay list price, nobody does (some VIP customers might come close, but no airline).

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: SchorschNG
Posted 2010-12-18 02:34:06 and read 9709 times.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
According to flightglobal DL Will start analysing narrowbody replacement early Next year. Its The DC-9, MD-88, early A320 and 757 that Will be replaced.

Would be a perfect business case for a mixed fleet of Bombadier CSeries and Airbus 320/321 NEOs.
Both with P&W engines.
May be some branding issues as Delta without Boeing seems "un-american" ... while a P&W A320NEO has lots of American work-share.

Probably they soldier on with the B737 and just change their network to fit the new aircraft (good bye B757).

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: MD-90
Posted 2010-12-18 03:41:11 and read 9498 times.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 52):
and have said they don't make money with the -700's.

If that was true Delta would sell the 73Gs and stop flying to places that required the aircraft.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 56):
This order is going to be HUGE.

Delta did set the record for the world's biggest ever airline order 30 years ago for its first 60 757s.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: rolfen
Posted 2010-12-18 06:56:20 and read 8505 times.

Quoting keesje (Reply 35):
This beauty is in her 27th year of service. Many 75s were scrapped already

I always liked the 757. I wish we'd see more of it and that it would not be retired from service. I wish time could be frozen... But I never flew on a 757 - as far as I remember.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: SchorschNG
Posted 2010-12-18 07:32:20 and read 8233 times.

Delta has a pretty low seat count in their aircraft.
Maybe the next aircraft will be seated more densely.
For some routes you could actually use a A320 instead of a B757, when throwing out a few ECO seats.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: MD-90
Posted 2010-12-18 07:45:11 and read 8163 times.

Personally I think United Continental and Delta make too much money flying 757s across the pond for Boeing not to eventually replace the type with something that has similar range and capacity. I don't think that's what Delta is going to be studying next year, though.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: deltal1011man
Posted 2010-12-18 07:50:13 and read 8115 times.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 52):
and have said they don't make money with the -700's.

Proof? Everything I have seen about the 73Ws is they like the little pocket rockets.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 52):
Except for a couple of aircraft ,they have been selling all of their -800 deliveries as soon as they come off the line for the last couple of years,

That has nothing to do with the now. That is due to a deal made during BK. With the cash from selling those they used it to A) buy 30 CR9s B) 10 73Ws and C) BK exit money.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 52):
Delta will start "STUDYING" it's narrow-body options next year,

You don't study aircraft for 5 years. That would be like me going to Ford and saying "hmmm this truck is nice, i'll think about it for the next 5 years and let you know"

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: adam42185
Posted 2010-12-18 08:21:29 and read 7923 times.

How much $$ would it take for Boeing to re-open the 757 line and make a 757NEO with a GTF or newer engine? It seems as though once all the 757s get older there isn't really going to be a good replacement for them for many of the missions they do. Why not re-engine the bird?

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: KaiGywer
Posted 2010-12-18 08:31:59 and read 7857 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 51):
Which MD-88's and DC-9's have AVOD, seatback IFE, satellite TV and radio?

True...I kinda missed those...they DO have Wifi though   And with Wifi, you can get all of the above...lol

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: dtw9
Posted 2010-12-18 08:45:52 and read 7747 times.

[Proof? Everything I have seen about the 73Ws is they like the little pocket rockets. [/quote]

Quess again.. If they like them so much and they make so much money ,why is it that they only have ten of them? They've said the same thing about the A319 too. They were purchased for specific routes that needed the extra performance, but they don't make money for Delta

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 66):
That has nothing to do with the now. That is due to a deal made during BK. With the cash from selling those they used it to A) buy 30 CR9s B) 10 73Ws and C) BK exit money.

Wrong again. Why spend 50 million on new 737-8's when you get the same seats from the MD-90's for 9 million. They are not going to spend 50 million on 737-8's to replace bought and paid for MD-88's to fly former DC-9-30/40 routes. Alot of other options out there now.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 66):
You don't study aircraft for 5 years. That would be like me going to Ford and saying "hmmm this truck is nice, i'll think about it for the next 5 years and let you know"

Wrong again. Their not buying cars that are replaced every five years, they are replacing airplanes that are going to be in service for 20 to 30 years. You're living in a dream world if you don't believe that these major decisions don't take years to determine. How long has Boeing been studing 737 replacement designs? Look at the 787, Delta still doesn't know what they'll do with them or whether their ever going to buy them.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2010-12-18 08:47:33 and read 7749 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 58):
It's not clear to me that this will be a "huge" order, as they are discussing replacing older frames. While ultimately they will replace hundreds of aircraft

Exactly that, hundreds of aircraft. If Boeing does a 737NEO, there will not be a new airframe, other than the C919 and Cseries in the replacement window. I'm not aware of any other airline due in the next three years for a similar size order besides WN.

Ok, FR might jump in... But I didn't want to open that can of worms.

This might be only a replacement order, but hundreds is huge. If Bombardier wins even half of this order, it changes the C-series prospects dramatically.

Quoting adam42185 (Reply 67):
How much $$ would it take for Boeing to re-open the 757 line

Why would they? A 739NEO would be a 'good enough'. The 757 line has been re-tooled to help increase 737 production. So to re-open the 757 line would not only incur a cost (mostly begging vendors to re-open production) it would cut production of an equivalent airframe.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: DLdiamondboy
Posted 2010-12-18 08:54:55 and read 7738 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 46):
As a business traveler (who for now exclusively flies Delta out of my home in NYC), I have come to rely on things like WiFi, AVOD and seatback IFE, satellite TV and radio, etc. My guess would be that the aircraft on the used market (the used MD-90'sm MD-80's, 757's, 320's) were not designed with electrical capacity to support these kinds of demands whereas newer aircraft like the 787 and 380 were. Any truth to that, and if so, what does that mean for Delta's onboard product moving forward?



I fly DL exclusively out of ATL . 91 flights on DL for 2010. I guess you guys in NYC have not being seeing any of the ex NWA A319 & A320's or DC-9's. The 319's and 320's have WIFI but no seat back IFE. DL has increased the use of the narrow body buses out of ATL. For overall passenger comfort the buses have more shoulder room due to greater fuselage inner diameter which is nice, seat pitch in V seems to match the DL 737 & 757. My other obsevation it seems that the A320/319 require a much higher takeoff power setting than the 737 or 757. Maybe some of the drivers can confirm or deny this.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2010-12-18 09:27:53 and read 7512 times.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 69):
Quess again.. If they like them so much and they make so much money ,why is it that they only have ten of them? They've said the same thing about the A319 too. They were purchased for specific routes that needed the extra performance, but they don't make money for Delta

This is patently false. If they didn't make money with them DL would've gotten rid of them. What has been said is that the operating costs for a A319 compared to an A320 and a 73G to a 738 are comparable, meaning it makes little sense to operate the smaller type given the equal costs, because the A320 and 738 hold more passengers hence higher revenue. This leads to lower costs per seat for the A320 and 738 versus the A319 and 73G, but it has never been said that DL doesn't make money with its A319s or 737-700s.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2010-12-18 09:41:20 and read 7427 times.

Quoting adam42185 (Reply 67):
How much $$ would it take for Boeing to re-open the 757 line and make a 757NEO with a GTF or newer engine?

Much easier just to put that engine on the 739.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: mayor
Posted 2010-12-18 09:55:15 and read 7385 times.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 42):
along with most of the PMDL 757 carpets.

When did the PMDL 757s ever have carpets? I remember the extendable bin in bin #2, but that is all. As I recall, bin #3 was designed that way, but DL never took delivery, that way.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2010-12-18 10:47:18 and read 7254 times.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 21):
Note: DL has 787s on order and no money has been put down and no new debt as a result

Northwest did put some money down on ordering of the 787's.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 25):
Once again, Delta will not have ANY widebody aircraft in mods during S11

The 747's are supposed to start in Summer, not fall.

Quoting BretonRLong (Reply 31):

Why is the A320/19 superior to the 737?

From a passenger point of view, I find the Airbus series more comfortable, its a more spacious aircraft and IMO much quieter than the 737 series.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 37):
However, should DL order from Airbus, they would be forefeiting their preferential pricing from Boeing and be forced to pay list prices from there on.

No they won't, no airline pays list price, almost nobody does except maybe a person just ordering a BBJ for themselves.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: adtall
Posted 2010-12-18 10:49:59 and read 7247 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 74):

Many of the PMDL 757s and 737-800s had them, but they took them out around 2007-2008 for weight savings (and a little extra room to get more cargo) and maintenance costs. I miss those, made an -800 much easier, though I had to work several -800s with a broken carpet and those were the worst offloads ever with no sliding at all.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: MNMncrcnwjr
Posted 2010-12-18 11:50:51 and read 7166 times.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 5):
the A320/19 are vastly superior

Except for ride quality..IMHO. dc9-50 still is the smoothest ride in the Mainline fleet (crj900 in connection fleet)

Quoting MadDogJT8D (Reply 10):
he 717's that have come available from Mexicana's demise.

Well a 717 deal could be worked with WN in swapping Airtran 717's for 73x slots DL has remaining options for.

The only issue is # of seats .. 717 ~100 is not equal to a dc9-50 ~124

With DLs revenue optimization program being fined tuned .. they need to have a a number of varying seat capacity aircraft to fit to the routes and to the season..

However there may be a Bombardier deal with CS 100 ,CS-130 or the crj 1000

They could also grab E-195 which are nice rides as well.... but still short of the 124 seats needed to replace.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2010-12-18 11:53:45 and read 7152 times.

Quoting SchorschNG (Reply 61):
May be some branding issues as Delta without Boeing seems "un-american"

I find this extremely unlikely. They operate a mixed fleet today - no reason to expect any branding repercussions from ordering Airbus in the future. In fact, I find this whole "Buy American" thing a complete red herring. I don't know a single person who even cares what aircraft they fly on relative to Boeing vs Airbus. Not one.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 70):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 58):
It's not clear to me that this will be a "huge" order, as they are discussing replacing older frames. While ultimately they will replace hundreds of aircraft

Exactly that, hundreds of aircraft. If Boeing does a 737NEO, there will not be a new airframe, other than the C919 and Cseries in the replacement window.

Perhaps, but it still is unclear what Boeing is going to do, how that would compare with the Airbus offering if a NEO, and if not a NEO, what they are lfoating as potential introduction dates for an all-new frame.

I agree, though, that it's a huge fleet.

-Dave

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: atlengineer
Posted 2010-12-18 13:01:18 and read 7013 times.

Quoting MNMncrcnwjr (Reply 77):


Well a 717 deal could be worked with WN in swapping Airtran 717's for 73x slots DL has remaining options for.

The only issue is # of seats .. 717 ~100 is not equal to a dc9-50 ~124


Actually, the 717's in Airtran configuration seat 12 in Business class and 105 in Coach with a 30 inch seat pitch for a total of 117 according to Seat Gure and Airtran. Not really that big a difference. The 717 is cheaper to operate and is a lot quieter.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: mayor
Posted 2010-12-18 13:27:39 and read 6954 times.

Quoting adtall (Reply 76):
Many of the PMDL 757s and 737-800s had them,

Well, from the time we first took delivery of the 757, they didn't have carpets.....all they had was the expanding bins in bin #2 and from what I can remember, that's all they had, at least until I retired in '05. The first a/c I saw that DL operated was the 737-800, with the carpet system in bin #3.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: adtall
Posted 2010-12-18 13:52:58 and read 6892 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 80):

I know they were at the least in the ex-Song 757s, plus a few others I think, so maybe not "many" but some  . They took out the expanding bins in #2 at the same time they took out the carpets. I miss those, they used to help a lot with a packed 757 to SLC with a 3-man crew.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: lucky777
Posted 2010-12-18 16:14:25 and read 6685 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 80):
Well, from the time we first took delivery of the 757, they didn't have carpets.....all they had was the expanding bins in bin #2 and from what I can remember, that's all they had, at least until I retired in '05. The first a/c I saw that DL operated was the 737-800, with the carpet system in bin #3.

They were in ALL of the Song 757's, which was from 2003 up until 2006. I believe there were a total of 48 757's dedicated to Song at its peak. There are still some Delta 757's flying around with carpet, mainly ship #680-ish and up...

And yes, ALL of the 737-800's had carpets in 2 and 3 originally, as did bins 3 and 5 of the MD-88/90's. They were all taken out (at breakneck speed, i might add!!!) at the height of the oil bubble.

Bin 3 of a 737-800 is no fun without the magic slide...

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: MNMncrcnwjr
Posted 2010-12-18 17:38:34 and read 6522 times.

Quoting atlengineer (Reply 79):
Actually, the 717's in Airtran configuration seat 12 in Business class and 105 in Coach with a 30 inch seat pitch for a total of 117

Thanks for correcting my lost memory ...   
Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 75):
From a passenger point of view, I find the Airbus series more comfortable, its a more spacious aircraft and IMO much quieter than the 737 series.

IMHO the 73x is my last pick if all other details are the same and yes that would include a CRJ900 and the E-175 .. But of course the DC9-50 is above all, for domestic.....

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: centre
Posted 2010-12-18 17:57:09 and read 6492 times.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 3):

Quoting centre (Reply 1):
Delta CEO has already stated that a 737NEO will not cut for them.

proof?

I was thinking of this when I made the statement above:

Quoting keesje (Reply 30):

“We wish Boeing would do the same, but it doesn’t look like the 737 will have much innovation in the coming years,” Anderson said. Atlanta-based Delta is the second-biggest U.S. airline.

December 4, 2010.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...0-with-new-engines-delta-says.html

We had it discussed in a lengthy thread of its own.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2010-12-19 13:50:37 and read 6057 times.

Quoting SchorschNG (Reply 61):
Probably they soldier on with the B737 and just change their network to fit the new aircraft (good bye B757).

With the largest 757 fleet in the world, I don't think we'll be saying goodbye anytime soon.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 66):
You don't study aircraft for 5 years. That would be like me going to Ford and saying "hmmm this truck is nice, i'll think about it for the next 5 years and let you know"

While not exactly studying several options, DL has taken five years to finalize a decision on a large narrowbody order. With the MD-90, DL teams worked with MDC beginning in 1989, through the life the development, testing, and certification programs for the plane. You can conisder the 115 options as, "this bird is nice, but we'll let you know about big committment after EIS." A year and half after this press release, DL changed their tune.

MD-90+WINGS+TOWARD+FUTURE+WITH+COMPETITIVE+ADVANTAGE-a016737818" target="_blank">http://www.thefreelibrary.com/DELTA+...H+COMPETITIVE+ADVANTAGE-a016737818

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2010-12-19 15:31:47 and read 5886 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 85):
With the largest 757 fleet in the world, I don't think we'll be saying goodbye anytime soon.

Yeah, they will still have lots of 757s to move around to areas that they are really needed even after they retire some of them. I wouldn't say Airbus is sure to get this just because of the A321NEO for this reason. Of course, the NEO should make Airbus stand out.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: planemaker
Posted 2010-12-19 17:23:43 and read 5761 times.

I don't know if someone else spotted the news about DL expanding their F and Y class seating on the domestic 767s, 757s, MD80 & 90s and DC9s by summer 2013. Over 1,200 first class seats in all and at least one additional row of economy seating per aircraft.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 86):
Yeah, they will still have lots of 757s to move around to areas that they are really needed even after they retire some of them.

The ACAS data base is showing 163 active 752s and 16 stored, and 16 753s. A quick scan of the 752 breakdown:

1984 - 1985 = 17

1986 - 1990 = 40

1991 - 1995 = 28

1995 - 2000 = 67

2001+ = 11

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2010-12-19 17:34:24 and read 5726 times.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 87):
I don't know if someone else spotted the news about DL expanding their F and Y class seating on the domestic 767s, 757s, MD80 & 90s and DC9s by summer 2013. Over 1,200 first class seats in all and at least one additional row of economy seating per aircraft.

Being discussed as we speak. The 757s will move from 22, 24, and 26 F seats respectively to 28. The non -ER 763s will go from 24 to 30. MD88s/90s will be 16F. CR7s have completed their F upgrades save the few QX CR7s that are in service with ASA. They will get cabin mods at some point in 2011 along with a fresh coat of paint (still flying around in a hybrid Horizon livery with the Horizon name removed and a little ASA sticker added on the nose).

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: MNMncrcnwjr
Posted 2010-12-19 20:57:52 and read 5534 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 88):
Horizon livery with the Horizon name removed and a little ASA sticker added on the nose).

Ah ... that's the strange looking birds around ATL ...... THANKS!!

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2010-12-19 22:04:08 and read 5440 times.

Quoting MNMncrcnwjr (Reply 89):



I appologize for the poor quality but this was taken just a few weeks after they entered service with ASA.

Topic: RE: DL To Start Narrowbody Replacement Study Early 2011
Username: astuteman
Posted 2010-12-19 23:02:34 and read 5363 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 28):
In that regard I would say that in the negotiations both sides must use the same sources, so if RLI is legal, it must be used on both sides of the pond, if NASA research grants are leagal, the EU must create their own NASA and operate it in the same fashion, if EU governments own share in EADS/Airbus, the US Government must onw shares in Boeing, Lockheed, etc. after all, that's is the only way to be sure that both side are doing the same thing.

If you're going to go all the way, then surely you should include the US DOD placing half of its aerospace business with EADS under very easily the most generous and risk-free terms that it is possible to find anywhere on the planet for defence business, to provide that financial stability and safety net to allow commercial aircraft development at the lowest possible risk?  
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 56):
Today, the A321NEO is the most likely for 757 replacement... Not for all routes, but for what the A321NEO isn't suitible, the 738 is 'good enough.' (And it isn't like DL doesn't have a number of those...)

But when could DL receive an A321NEO? 2017?
Remember the first NEO will be the A320, in 2016
In a 2013 timeframe, the most likely 757 replacement is a current A321 with winglets or a 739ER, I would have thought....

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 58):
it might be that this is an interim order of NEO's to get them to the next all-new narrowbody, when they would then go full out on an order.

Following on from above, I'd suspect that any order with the word "interim" attached to it, with deliveries commencing in 2013, won't be for a "NEO" anything.
The new engines aren't available to go into service until 2016

Rgds


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