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Topic: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: apodino
Posted 2011-07-11 11:36:48 and read 12004 times.

Came across this article on Codesharing, and how it can be a very confusing to passengers who aren't familiar with how airlines work (Which i know is no one on A.NET  )

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/07/11...codesharing/index.html?hpt=hp_bn12

I know the example in the article is extreme, but a ticked bought on United, and not only did the passenger not get UA metal, but not even United Express metal, as it was US Express operated by Piedmont, then LH, then the LH regional affiliate.

This being said, Codesharing isn't going anywhere, but there are ways that I think it could be improved from a customer point of view. Sometimes when I am in ORD, and I am looking on the UA flight monitor, I have to wait 10 minutes just to even see what the UA flight number for a UA flight is. This isn't right to me.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2011-07-11 11:44:40 and read 11954 times.

The great thing about codesharing confusion is that it only happens to a person once ...

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: commavia
Posted 2011-07-11 12:01:32 and read 11849 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 1):
The great thing about codesharing confusion is that it only happens to a person once ...

... except "journalists," who often seem to find anything and everything about air travel so endlessly confounding and confusing. This guy says he used to work for America West, but most of the media seem to have less than no clue about the alleged intricacies of air travel that millions of other ordinary people seem to have long-ago mastered - including codesharing.

 

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: DeltaRules
Posted 2011-07-11 13:27:40 and read 11583 times.

Thanks for posting this. I have a friend that's spending the summer in Turkey and am trying to sell her on signing up for Dividend Miles or Mileage Plus because she's going to rack up roughly 11,250 miles in one go. This explains things in more simple terms than I can. She also wanted to know why her first flight was ticketed as US when she was on UA CMH-IAD, so this is great.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: pgtravel
Posted 2011-07-11 13:38:27 and read 11563 times.

Quoting apodino (Thread starter):
I know the example in the article is extreme

I'm the author of the column, and you're right, it is totally extreme. I wanted something that showed just how absurd codesharing could get, so I had fun poking around in Sabre looking for some fun routings. This one definitely stood out. But it really was meant to show problems that do happen in even more mundane situations. I mean, you can book BA from LAX to MAD on the IB nonstop, but if you expect a BA-style product, you're going to be pretty unhappy.

Quoting commavia (Reply 2):
except "journalists," who often seem to find anything and everything about air travel so endlessly confounding and confusing. This guy says he used to work for America West

I tend to agree that a lot of the coverage out there is pretty poor, but most of us here on a.net forget (as apodino mentioned) that codesharing can be really confusing for the casual traveler. This isn't the kind of article I write on CrankyFlier.com, but it's the kind of thing they like for the general audience that reads CNN.com.

Personally, I don't think codesharing provides any benefit for travelers. Frequent flier reciprocity doesn't require codesharing, so that's not an issue. It's really all about getting better placement in reservation systems to improve bookings. I don't fault the airlines for doing it, but I just don't think there's consumer-benefit.

Oh, and I've worked for a few airlines, but America West was my first real job out of college (did pricing there). I also worked on the launch of Eos in its very early stages, and I worked in marketing at United, among other things.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2011-07-11 14:25:30 and read 11393 times.

Oh wow, the columnist is an a.net member! Hi Brett!  
Quoting pgtravel (Reply 4):
This isn't the kind of article I write on CrankyFlier.com, but it's the kind of thing they like for the general audience that reads CNN.com.

  

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: pgtravel
Posted 2011-07-11 18:51:48 and read 11113 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 5):
Oh wow, the columnist is an a.net member! Hi Brett!  

Howdy. I've been on a.net for at least 5 years (my username is from when I was running PriceGrabber's now defunct travel site), but I don't always get to participate as much as I'd like.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2011-07-11 19:45:56 and read 10946 times.

I would call myself a VERY seasoned traveler and I even deal with codesharing in my work at United but on a recent trip I found myself confused by the whole thing. I went from DEN-LCA on a CO ticket and never once touched CO metal. I should point out that this was the first actual revenue trip I had taken in several years, it was travel that my wife required so her firm booked and paid for it. After we received the tickets I tried to call and add my FF info and upgrade our seats, well that was hell! I ended up flying on UA, LH, and CY for the trip and each flight had problems that would have never happened if the flights were not codeshares. I feel kind of ashamed to admit this but I finally had to just fall back on using my contacts at work (UA) to smooth things over. So yes I can see how codesharing can be a real pain for the average traveler.

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 4):
and I worked in marketing at United, among other things.

When were you at United? Wonder if we knew each other?

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2011-07-12 00:25:22 and read 10732 times.

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 4):
Personally, I don't think codesharing provides any benefit for travelers

It really doesn't. In fact, the logistics of it are detrimental overall to the passenger experience. It quite often involves terminal and airline changes.


That being said, these days you have to be in a hurry to not notice what airlines you will actually fly. All the travel sites I frequent (Orbitz, Expedia, Travelocity) and every single airline website I visit lists the actual operating carrier and flight number right below the codeshare flight number, usually with no more than a 4-pt font difference on the search page. On the confirmation page, it restates the same information in a similar way.

Even on a boarding pass, it prints the actual operating carrier and flight number as the primary listing in most cases (express codeshares excluded).


Which makes it slightly ironic that people would complain about it. The most casual traveler just wants to get from A-B and doesn't care who they fly, and an experienced traveler should know exactly where to look to make sure they're flying on who they want to fly.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2011-07-12 01:04:28 and read 10646 times.

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 6):
Howdy. I've been on a.net for at least 5 years (my username is from when I was running PriceGrabber's now defunct travel site), but I don't always get to participate as much as I'd like.

As a religious follower of cranky, it is awesome to have you on here! I really enjoyed your recent Delta Decision article because my decision tree is similar.

I normally only fly Delta and Skyteam members, and I think that Delta does a very good job of showing you who operates the flight. The most irritating issue I run into however is that trying to book seats on AF or KL if the flight is more than 90 days out is impossible. I don't know if this is a KL or AF policy (however I have always been able to book seats when I book on AF's website), or something that is taking time to integrate with the JV.

Good luck with CrankyConcierge btw!

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: SASMD82
Posted 2011-07-12 01:18:55 and read 10598 times.

At AMS we have had some extreme examples of codeshare. The KL flights to - let's say - BGO were shared with AF, DL, KQ, AZ, NW, CO and MH......The flight was operated with a Fokker 70  .

Isn't it time to introduce a Sky Team. Star Alliance and One World prefix?

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: sw733
Posted 2011-07-12 01:29:39 and read 10575 times.

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 4):
Frequent flier reciprocity doesn't require codesharing, so that's not an issue.

Sorry mate but that's not always true. Here is one example - lets say you are an AA frequent flier and you book a ticket on CX (with a CX flight number). Even though they are both OneWorld, only a few CX codes actually earn full (or any, sometimes) miles on AA...

So, it's not always true.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: rwSEA
Posted 2011-07-12 02:15:08 and read 10470 times.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 10):
At AMS we have had some extreme examples of codeshare. The KL flights to - let's say - BGO were shared with AF, DL, KQ, AZ, NW, CO and MH......The flight was operated with a Fokker 70 .

Isn't it time to introduce a Sky Team. Star Alliance and One World prefix?

Agree - and with Schiphol's automated announcements, it really gets ridiculous:

"Now boarding for KLM, Delta Airlines, Alitalia, Korean Airlines, Malaysia Airlines, and Kenya Airways for London Heathrow".

"Last call for SAS, Lufthansa, United Airlines, US Airways, and Continental Airlines to Copenhagen".

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2011-07-12 02:29:31 and read 10441 times.

I thought it was a nicely written article. Now, if only we can do something about those damn article links that stick themselves in the middle of an article, making you think they are part of it.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: sfredspot
Posted 2011-07-12 05:03:46 and read 9831 times.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 11):

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 4):
Frequent flier reciprocity doesn't require codesharing, so that's not an issue.

Sorry mate but that's not always true. Here is one example - lets say you are an AA frequent flier and you book a ticket on CX (with a CX flight number). Even though they are both OneWorld, only a few CX codes actually earn full (or any, sometimes) miles on AA...

So, it's not always true.

While what you say is true, that's AA and CX's choice. They could choose, as BA and AA have done, to make the flight number irrelevant. Codesharing isn't responsible for the consumer benefit in your example; it's only been artificially linked to it.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2011-07-12 05:27:38 and read 9652 times.

Actually it has a simple fix - list the actual carrier operating the flight. Some IBEs do this, EK Mercator etc IIRC. Further, the airline could list in the printed ticket that it's operated by XYZ Airlines. This makes things easier for all the parties involved - no unrealistic expectations, no broken promises.
Btw Brett, nice to see you here. Wonder if you remember me ? I run Airline Industry Review. You should seriously talk to PanAm_DC10 Paul and get your username changed to CrankyFlier.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: mabadia71
Posted 2011-07-12 05:58:39 and read 9368 times.

The route listed in the article is not so crazy. I remember a couple years back I was looking for tickets in the route SJO-NUE, I looked on united.com and the results showed something like this:
SJO-SAL, operated by Taca International
SAL-MIA, operated by Taca
MIA-FRA, operated by Lufthansa
FRA-NUE, operated by Lufthansa.

And the return leg was something similar, only going trough IAD instead of MIA, so it's not completely crazy.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: rising
Posted 2011-07-12 06:00:15 and read 9345 times.

Who keeps the cash?

Say I book a ticket with United flight numbers, but it is on US Airways. Does United get the money, or US Airways?

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: pgtravel
Posted 2011-07-12 08:19:20 and read 8329 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 7):
When were you at United? Wonder if we knew each other?

I was in the short-lived Marketing Planning group in 2004-2005 (WHQPS). I left before even a year was up, because frankly, it was not a good place for me. (It apparently wasn't a good place for a lot of people, because the Mktg Planning group was disbanded shortly after.)

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 9):
s a religious follower of cranky, it is awesome to have you on here! I really enjoyed your recent Delta Decision article because my decision tree is similar.

Thanks for reading the blog!

Quoting sw733 (Reply 11):
Sorry mate but that's not always true. Here is one example - lets say you are an AA frequent flier and you book a ticket on CX (with a CX flight number). Even though they are both OneWorld, only a few CX codes actually earn full (or any, sometimes) miles on AA...

As sfredspot says, that's simply the policy between the two airlines. They may have tied codesharing and ff reciprocity together, but that's not required by any stretch. If they wanted full reciprocity on all flights, they could do it. (My guess is that CX is the one driving that policy.)

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 13):
I thought it was a nicely written article. Now, if only we can do something about those damn article links that stick themselves in the middle of an article, making you think they are part of it.

Yeah, sorry about that. I definitely have no control over that piece - it gets thrown in by the editors whenever they feel like it.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 15):
Btw Brett, nice to see you here. Wonder if you remember me ? I run Airline Industry Review. You should seriously talk to PanAm_DC10 Paul and get your username changed to CrankyFlier.

Yeah, hey there. I should get it changed, I suppose, but I didn't know they did that. I figured that once you have a name, it doesn't change.

Quoting rising (Reply 17):
Who keeps the cash?

In codesharing, there is an agreement between the airlines as to how the cash is split up. If UA collects the money but no segments are actually on UA, then UA won't keep anything. But in this case it's different, because LH and UA have the joint venture over the Pond so they will split the portion of the money that doesn't go to US for the first flight.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ytz
Posted 2011-07-12 08:21:27 and read 8312 times.

Excellent article. I only wish Brett had been more critical of the airlines.

Sometimes I wish consumer or civil aviation ministries in various countries would take airlines and the alliances to task for what is essentially a bait and switch tactic.

Most on here might understand the practice. But it certainly does not excuse it or make it any less distasteful and outright bewildering to a non-frequent flier.

What's egregious here is the way it's advertised. Codeshares could be made entirely transparent to the passenger who could simply be told that his/her ticket involves travel on other lines through codeshares and that's why he/she is travelling on Lufthansa instead of Air Canada or United. They should be issued a ticket which explicitly lists the flight number of the airline they are travelling on (with the codeshre in small print). However, it seems like ridiculous efforts are made to pitch that Lufthansa flight as an Air Canada or United flight to the passenger. I can point out an even more ridiculous scenario. Last weekend, I was searching for a fare, in a few months, from YYZ to BOM. In that routing, several times I got Delta flights (on AF and KL) that never touched Delta metal. Indeed, I would not even have to, ever touch the USA. How absurd is that?

And other than miles and your bags being checked through, what other benefits do you get? You certainly can't access all your perks. And the effort involved in claiming them often compels people to simply forego them.

And most hilariously, airlines complain about the likes of EK/EY/QR often forget that there's minimal code-sharing on these airlines. When you book a ticket on Emirates, you are virtually guaranteed to get an Emirates airplane and their level of service (whether you like it or not). It's something that sets these airlines apart.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ckfred
Posted 2011-07-12 08:26:27 and read 8251 times.

What is irritating is when it's clear that two airlines codeshare, but not all flights are subject to the codeshare.

Years ago, I had volunteered my seat on an AA flight in exchange for a voucher, good for AA, Eagle, and codeshares (Oneworld was about a year from existance).

I wanted to fly ORD-YHZ and back on the voucher.

The agent first offered a routing via YUL, with CP flying he YUL-YHZ-YUL segments. AA handled the segments between ORD and YUL.

But, the CP flights between YUL and YHZ weren't codeshare flights, so I couldn't use the voucher. I didn't get why CP wasn't codesharing, since the connecting time was about 55 minutes eastbound and 90 minutes westbound.

So, I had to go ORD-BOS (AA), BOS-YHZ (BEX codeshare), YHZ-YYZ (CP codeshare), YYZ-ORD (AA), and that routing was earlier than I wanted eastbound, with a 2 and 1/2 hour connection westbound.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2011-07-12 08:54:24 and read 7995 times.

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 18):
Yeah, hey there. I should get it changed, I suppose, but I didn't know they did that. I figured that once you have a name, it doesn't change.

They usually don't, but if you ask nicely, they probably will. Find his username and message him.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ga330
Posted 2011-07-12 09:01:54 and read 7940 times.

This maybe is out of topic but this thread exemplifies one of the best qualities that I like about a.net., with so many expertise on a seemingly simple subject and free flow of discussion and discovering people that we actually know in real life!

As an aspiring airline executive, Brett, you and a lot others are truly my examples that I want to follow in the industry.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: kanepjk
Posted 2011-07-12 09:04:32 and read 7907 times.

I once had a multi leg trip that was ticketed by Delta with a leg that had a US Air flt number flown on a United aircraft. When I had to make a change to that leg it was extremely difficult because all three airlines told me to call one of the others.
- Delta told me to call US air as it was their flt number.
- US Air told me to call United as they were operating the flight.
- United told me to call Delta because they had issued the ticket.

In the end I couldn't solve it over the phone and had to go to the airport so i could draw them a flow chart of the whole convoluted mess.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: apodino
Posted 2011-07-12 10:27:07 and read 7272 times.

Quoting kanepjk (Reply 23):
I once had a multi leg trip that was ticketed by Delta with a leg that had a US Air flt number flown on a United aircraft. When I had to make a change to that leg it was extremely difficult because all three airlines told me to call one of the others.
- Delta told me to call US air as it was their flt number.
- US Air told me to call United as they were operating the flight.
- United told me to call Delta because they had issued the ticket.

Another problem with codesharing is during IROPS, airlines will often reaccommodate passengers on other airlines. The problem is when an agent looks up available flights in the computer, they will often show an airline whose code is on the flight, but isn't operating the flight, nor does the agents reservations system actually say who is operating that flight. A high flight number on a particular flight is a hint, but in the RJ age, high flight numbers are often just express flights, so the Agent doesn't even think twice about it not being on that carrier.

An example would be in PHL, where a DL passenger was ticket to ATW via DTW. Say the DTW flight was cancelled and they are looking to rebook the passenger. The agent will look up a different itinerary. The itinerary will show in the computer on USAirways to ORD and then from there to ATW. So the agent will book that itinerary. One problem though. Both legs of this particular itinerary are actually United flights with the US code on it. Given the fact that US has a fortress hub in PHL, how would a passenger look at this and not realize that neither of the flights are on US metal? And even if the pax got to ORD, good luck finding the US flight to ATW.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: imag
Posted 2011-07-12 10:29:04 and read 7416 times.

i'm sure we all have our stories... i just booked QF from LHR to BNE - except the flights i wanted were no longer available on QF site... so i turned to BA and booked the flights i wanted as BA flights - all on QF metal... the best bit was - BA had a "sale" on - so the price was less than what i had seen on QF earlier...

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: PeterJ
Posted 2011-07-12 10:53:56 and read 7273 times.

I just had a conversation about this this weekend. My grandparents were telling me about a trip they were taking on USAirways with a layover in ORD. So I looked at what the travel agent had given them, and it makes no mention that United is in fact the operating carrier. My grandparents aren't going to check in online or anything, so I can see them going to the wrong part of the airport and such.

The bottom line is, they could make it easier.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Grid
Posted 2011-07-12 10:55:09 and read 7287 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 2):
... except "journalists," who often seem to find anything and everything about air travel so endlessly confounding and confusing. This guy says he used to work for America West, but most of the media seem to have less than no clue about the alleged intricacies of air travel that millions of other ordinary people seem to have long-ago mastered - including codesharing.

It's that inept media again, rearing their ugly heads again when the field should be left to professionals such as those found on internet forums. Why, just the other day, I was reading an article on Delta and the paper had the nerve, the absolute nerve to use a stock photo of an aircraft type Delta no longer flies and, to top it off, the aircraft had its old livery. The horror!

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2011-07-12 11:08:48 and read 7155 times.

I'm a pretty savvy traveler, and I find code sharing to be quite obnoxious sometimes. For a domestic flight, or a flight originating in the US - I would generally feel comfortable with the whole process. But if this was an intra-Europe travel flight, or somewhere anywhere else in the world where I am unfamiliar with the airlines and the airport, I think I might even be victim to being thrown off.

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 4):
I mean, you can book BA from LAX to MAD on the IB nonstop, but if you expect a BA-style product, you're going to be pretty unhappy.

And you're definitely right - it throws off a decent majority of people....for example, my roommate was just staffed out on a client in XNA, and had to book with AA, and noticed there was a BA codeshare on the flight. Last night he asked me, "I'm really hoping that I'll get to fly British Airways from Chicago to Bentonville, that would be so sweet!"

Uhh...despite the fact that his aunt used to be a UA FA, and he has flown all over the world on UA, he still wasn't aware that there is no way in hell the RJ he will be flying down there will have nothing but an American Eagle logo on the fuselage.

Good article, Brett!

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: goblin211
Posted 2011-07-12 11:13:54 and read 7110 times.

I don't think codesharing is a big deal or even in the vocabulary of most pax out there. I think it's just those who fly internationally and rack up a bunch of miles doing so that this applies to. However, it's only beneficial to the airlines and pax who fly internationally constantly. even if they understood everything, would people really care in the long run let alone remember by tomorrow. that's one thing I never understood about journalism, confusing topics+inapplicable to a lot of people=not caring.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2011-07-12 12:03:57 and read 6856 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 1):
The great thing about codesharing confusion is that it only happens to a person once ...

This is not actually true, and as others have pointed out, there are various little things you can discover after the fact - and sometimes only after a few flights - that work differently with code sharing. For example, on my latest trip to Japan, my wife went ahead of me (she has family there) and then we flew back together. It turned out that flying on the exact same flight, it was cheaper for me to book my round trip half through United and half through ANA, while my wife was booked entirely through United. No big deal, we thought, we're both on the same plane and the entire process is the same, right?

Well, no. We weren't even sure we'd be able to get seats together until we actually went to the airport. The problem is ANA's internet check-in does not work with United tickets, and obviously vice versa too. So I could check in online but she couldn't. I could request a seat in advance but she couldn't; she even called ANA. (You could say "in the old days, you couldn't select a seat on the internet at all"... but you could at least call the airline in a situation where you buy tickets separately, and they would request seats for you over the phone.)

We did get to the airport early and first ANA put us into an electronic check-in line (the process at Narita is weird these days; some desks are staffed and others aren't, and it seems more or less random where they put you). Again, I managed to check in through the kiosk but my wife couldn't - it didn't recognize her as a ticket-holder even though we selected "United" as the ticket seller. So we had to call someone over to put us at a staffed desk. This may have just been a bug, but anyway it's indicative of things that can go wrong in the process.

Finally we were able to get someone to manually give us seats together, and it all ended up fine... but it was just a lot of unnecessary stress. There's no reason a married couple should worry about having seats together on a 13 hour flight when the tickets were purchased 2 months in advance.

We've done code sharing before, but this time, especially with one of us on a code share and the other booked directly through the airline, it definitely felt like the code share ticket was treated as a fourth class ticket. Next time we do this, I will definitely be avoiding code shares and will just look for the cheapest flight on the actual flying airline.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-12 12:37:23 and read 6758 times.

I must be one of those rare travelers who doesn't have a problem with code sharing...and in fact, appreciates the convenience.

I have flown millions of miles, mostly on Star Alliance, and haven't really had an issue with code sharing. In fact, just the opposite. That I can fly around the world and still accrue my Aeroplan points has been a big bonus for me.

I spent a couple of years flying regularly from DXB-BNE on Singapore and got to enjoy their great Y service and earning upgrades on Air Canada. As much as Aeroplan is derided, of the plans I've joined, it offers the easiest path to J upgrades...and other Star Alliance members flights are offered points as if they were Air Canada flights...and until recently, Y was not such a great product on AC.

It would have to take a particularly dim passenger to not realise the very basics of how code sharing works. It's been around for decades and almost every flight offered is a code share of another airline. Code shares are made known while booking, printed on the itinerary and tickets and even posted on the flight boards at the airport.

At the very least, it is nice to be able to book flights on several airlines on only one ticket. I did some international flights on non code sharing airlines...and it was a much huger pain that any code sharing flight series I have ever been on. Just the lost luggage procedures over several, non code sharing airlines were a nightmare...much more so than lost luggage procedures on code sharing flights...and that is not such a small or rare thing when one travels overseas.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: pgtravel
Posted 2011-07-12 13:39:44 and read 6699 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 19):
Excellent article. I only wish Brett had been more critical of the airlines.

You know, this thread is inspiring a new post for Cranky that will look at this with a harsher eye. The question is . . . is there any benefit to the traveler when it comes to codesharing? . . .

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 31):

I must be one of those rare travelers who doesn't have a problem with code sharing...and in fact, appreciates the convenience.

Most of the benefits you mention aren't really related to codesharing itself. I mean, the frequent flier benefits can happen without codesharing, so that's not really a benefit in that sense. There's nothing preventing airlines have harmonizing baggage policies while still selling under their own code, and that might make it more clear to the customer. On baggage, for example, we've been fighting four different lost bag scenarios this weekend that involve alliance partners and they're just all pointing fingers and making it generally more difficult. People think that codesharing and alliances means that they can deal with the airline that sold the ticket and get everything taken care of, but that's definitely not the case.

So other than improve the display order of flights, what benefit does codesharing really have? I'm slowly turning this into a blog post in my mind.

Quoting ga330 (Reply 22):
As an aspiring airline executive, Brett, you and a lot others are truly my examples that I want to follow in the industry.

Well, thanks. That's very kind of you to say. If you want to be an airline exec, I hope you have a lot of patience. That is no easy job!

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-12 14:25:32 and read 6594 times.

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 32):

So other than improve the display order of flights, what benefit does codesharing really have? I'm slowly turning this into a blog post in my mind.

Nothing will ever make lost baggage a great time, but in my experience, (and I do have quite a lot of traveling experience), inter airline problems are more easily solved within alliances...though I can't speak about all alliances, most of my experience is with Star Alliance.

Code sharing definitely makes inter airline ticketing easier. If you book an itinerary on non alliance airlines, you end up with as many tickets as the airlines you will fly. There is also significantly better inter airline communication, since the major members at least, will more than likely be able to track your entire trip as well as your luggage throughout the entire trip. This is not often the case with non alliance airlines.

Regardless that the benefits of alliances CAN be had without being in an alliance, they most often aren't. Maybe for domestic US travel it isn't a big deal, especially since language isn't a barrier, but try planning some complex international flights using a variety of non alliance airlines. It sucks. The only hope when traveling where english isn't spoken is that your trip can be tracked on computer.

I had a flight to Hong Kong from Vancouver a few years back. My route was AC, Van-Hong Kong, OZ Hong Kong-ICN, AC ICN-VAN. As it turned out, I was delayed getting to Hong Kong due to a hurricane. I missed the AC flight to ICN and seats were scarce from Hong Kong to Vancouver due to the day long shutdown of the airport.

The Asiana desk agent worked her butt off getting me a flight back to Vancouver...and it was on Cathay, (not a Star Alliance airline). If I wasn't on a Star Alliance itinerary, she would only had to work out a flight from Hong Kong to Seoul...then I would have had to overnight in Korea before getting a flight to Vancouver.

I have been on plenty of non alliance international flights that were disrupted in one way or another and without exception, each airline is only concerned about their own leg...not the entire trip.

Sure, alliance benefits can theoretically be had on non alliance itineraries...but getting them is very unlikely.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2011-07-12 15:08:25 and read 6527 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 33):

Code sharing definitely makes inter airline ticketing easier. If you book an itinerary on non alliance airlines, you end up with as many tickets as the airlines you will fly.

Absolutely not true at all. Almost all of the major airlines have interline agreements with each other, which is NOT the same as a codeshare. The only thing a codeshare does is put one carrier's code (for example, UA) onto a flight operated by US.

In other words, you will have a ticket issued on United stock, with a United flight number. Federal law requires that your itinerary and boarding pass also list the actual operating flight number and carrier. For example, you might see a UA flight 5521 listed, and near that it will say "Operated by US Airways Flight 73", for a PHX-DEN routing. This is so the airlines can share the revenue from that sale per their codeshare agreement.

An interline agreement allow you to have one ticket, issued by one carrier, for an itinerary containing flights on two or more airlines that don't otherwise codeshare. For example, you can book a trip PHX-ORD on AA, with a connection to MAN on UA, all on one ticket. One check in, one single bag tag to your final, etc...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 33):
If I wasn't on a Star Alliance itinerary, she would only had to work out a flight from Hong Kong to Seoul.

There is really no such thing as a "Star Alliance itinerary" in the way you put it (RTW trips excluded, of course). There was nothing preventing that agent from putting you on that same flight back to YVR. Besides, you even say that you were put on a non-Star carrier, so what difference would it make?

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 33):
I have been on plenty of non alliance international flights that were disrupted in one way or another and without exception, each airline is only concerned about their own leg

Because they can't simply can't rebook another airline's segment without their permission, because that takes the revenue away from them. When you're rebooked on another airline, the ticket value for that segment is transferred to the new airline. During irregular operations, the best way is to focus on the tickets you can control and change with ease, to allow you to rebook the greatest number of passengers in a given amount of time.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: cslusarc
Posted 2011-07-12 15:14:48 and read 6498 times.

There are good and bad things about code shares but it seems we all talk about the bad. We should all let the marketing carrier know that they should be responsible for bad experiences on a code share because the operating carrier is the marketing carrier's subcontractor if the operating carrier cannot deliver you a satisfactory resolution in a timely manner.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 33):

Code sharing definitely makes inter airline ticketing easier

True but interline ticketing will always be available when purchasing your travel via a conventional or online travel agent (where interline agreements exist).

One fact I'd like to remind everyone is that airlines like UA will soon run out of their allotted 9999 flight numbers as they become bigger and code share more. I heard talk that some airlines would like a second two character IATA code or be permitted to add a fifth digit to their flight numbers to expand the number of flights they can offer.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2011-07-12 16:19:46 and read 6400 times.

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 35):
We should all let the marketing carrier know that they should be responsible for bad experiences on a code share because the operating carrier is the marketing carrier's subcontractor if the operating carrier cannot deliver you a satisfactory resolution in a timely manner.

Well I am not totally sure about that. In my example above, who is responsible for not allowing seat assignment or advance check-in on code share tickets? It would seem to me that that would be up to the operating carrier, not the marketing carrier.

I personally feel like if code shares are going to be allowed, the operating airline should be required to treat your ticket the same as any other ticket sold. It should be more clear that you are actually buying a ticket for the operating airline through the marketing airline. The problems seem to arise mostly from the idea that if you buy a United ticket for an ANA flight, you are actually flying United even though the flight is operated by ANA. No, that's just confusing, to everyone, including apparently the airlines. It should just be "You are buying a ticket on ANA that's sold by United." And then ANA is responsible for everything, same as if they sold you the ticket themselves. United still gets their cut of the money because they sold you the ticket, same as any commission for selling anything. ANA fills a seat that they may not have otherwise filled. It still doesn't change the basic business rationale for code shares, but it would make things a lot simpler for everyone.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2011-07-12 16:33:18 and read 6375 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 36):
The problems seem to arise mostly from the idea that if you buy a United ticket for an ANA flight, you are actually flying United even though the flight is operated by ANA. No, that's just confusing, to everyone, including apparently the airlines.

It's a bit confusing, but more of a pain in the butt. After a while, you start to learn the codeshare flight ranges, and can pick out who operates on what routes. What makes it hard is when you KNOW how to fix something, but aren't allowed to because the ticket is on UA stock, and under their control. The same problem exists for interline tickets, and that's even harder because a lot of times non-alliance carriers don't want you taking away their revenue.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 36):
but it would make things a lot simpler for everyone.

Trust me, the airline industry has this aversion to simplicity from top to bottom. Because, to put it simply (no pun intended), in a simple, free market, airlines would never make any money. It is a consistently losing business, and only by tricks and such can they keep the illusion of profitability in a certain number of years.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-12 20:49:10 and read 6236 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
Absolutely not true at all.

Actually, since I have had the experiences of which I speak, completely true. That your experiences may differ do not make my experiences false or irrelevant.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
There is really no such thing as a "Star Alliance itinerary" in the way you put it (RTW trips excluded, of course). There was nothing preventing that agent from putting you on that same flight back to YVR. Besides, you even say that you were put on a non-Star carrier, so what difference would it make?

The way I put it is an itinerary exclusively on star alliance airlines, so yes, there is such a thing. The difference is that the person working so hard on my behalf so I didn't have to overnight at my own expense in Hong Kong or S.Korea, was an agent of the Star alliance carrier I was booked with. She went above and beyond to get me on a flight to my destination, regardless of airline or alliance.

Had my ticket to Seoul been on a different alliance airline than my trip to Vancouver from Seoul, it is unlikely that the agent in Hong Kong would have tried in the least to get me to Vancouver. The same flight back to YVR, (which connected through Seoul), and all other star alliance flights from Hong Kong to Vancouver that day were either sold out or had already departed.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
Because they can't simply can't rebook another airline's segment without their permission, because that takes the revenue away from them. When you're rebooked on another airline, the ticket value for that segment is transferred to the new airline. During irregular operations, the best way is to focus on the tickets you can control and change with ease, to allow you to rebook the greatest number of passengers in a given amount of time.

Right...which is why flying on alliance partners on code sharing flights makes the effort so much easier. I have plenty of first hand experience with that, so in my experience, (which is only what I was commenting on), booking itineraries on code sharing flights makes my traveling life easier. There is much less hassle in adjusting the itinerary should something go wrong....which it does...frequently.

If your experiences differ, that's ok.

There are advantages to loyalty to code sharing and alliance partners...just not for everyone on every occasion. For me, the positives far outweighs the negative. Your results may vary.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ytz
Posted 2011-07-12 22:58:32 and read 6135 times.

JoeCanuck,

To be fair. Your experience, having earned millions of miles, is hardly typical. If you are Star Alliance Gold, you are a seasoned flyer and a prized customer by the alliance.

While that Asiana agent is to be commended, somehow I doubt she did that just because you were a Star Alliance passenger. She may have done it because you were Star Alliance Gold. That's great, that the Alliance works for you. But that in no way that's there tons of benefits and no confusion for the average customer on codeshares.

You are also mistaking criticism of the practice, largely focused on the marketing of codeshares, to outright criticism of codeshares. Nobody here has said codeshares should be eliminated. What many of us are arguing, however, is that the deceptive marketing of codeshares has to come to an end.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-13 00:37:51 and read 6064 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 39):
While that Asiana agent is to be commended, somehow I doubt she did that just because you were a Star Alliance passenger.

Actually, no. My ticket was purchased using Aeroplan points, well after I dropped from gold status and since it wasn't a cash purchase, that usually puts one at the bottom of the heap. I was just another schmuck getting a freebie.

Most of the criticism of the practice seems to come from the USA...probably the toughest airline market on the planet. There are a half a dozen major airlines in a knife fight for the lowest fares and almost all of the airlines are losing cash. The reason is the same people who complain about code sharing, aren't willing to pony up the dough for higher ticket prices so each airline could fly their own aircraft into Muncie.

Even with paying Calgon and others less than what it would cost mainline airlines to fly the routes, they still lose money.

So what are the solutions? Will passengers pay more for mainline only service? I doubt it. Besides, what's the confusion? Does the plane not fly to the ticketed destination? Would it make a difference in the actual flight to have Calgon, (or whomever), in larger print so those who forgot their glasses could be comforted to know what company is actually flying them, under the guise of a major airline?

If anything, what is needed is more oversight of training and practices of regionals in general...and that's an FAA issue, not an airline issue.

People can complain about the allegedly misleading practices of the airlines with their codeshare partners, but until both the feds are willing to step in and passengers are willing to pay more, nothing will change.

With rising expenses, crumbling infrastructure and aircraft getting too old to maintain, codesharing isn't on the short list for resolution any time soon...by anybody. It may garner temporary interest as an editorial but if it has dropped off of the radar after Buffalo, it's not going to garner a lot of support now.

Anyway, what do people expect for their ridiculously low priced tickets...champagne?

Caveat emptor.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: vhqpa
Posted 2011-07-13 03:01:52 and read 5971 times.

The thing that really annoys about codeshares when you're trying to check the departure screen and you can't see your flight because the flight above is hogging 5-6 lines.

It's really ridiculous when you have


AIR NEW ZEALAND ... NZ 136 ... AUCKLAND ... GATE 78 ... 1225
CONTINENTAL ... CO 4886 ... AUCKLAND ... GATE 78 ... 1225
UNITED ... UA 9574 ... AUCKLAND ... GATE 78 ... 1225
AIR CHINA ... CA 5104 ... AUCKLAND ... GATE 78 ... 1225
THAI ... TG 474 ... BANGKOK ... GATE 82 ... 1400
LUFTHANSA ... LH 9759 ... BANGKOK ... GATE 82 ... 1400
QANTAS ... QF 51 ... SINGAPORE / MUMBAI ... GATE 80 ... 1410
AIR FRANCE ... AF 8089 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 80 ... 1410
AIR INDIA ... AI 4051 ... SINGAPORE / MUMBAI ... GATE 80 ... 1410
FINNAIR ... AY 5008 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 80 ... 1410
JAPAN AIRLINES ... JL 5078 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 80 ... 1410
BRITISH AIRWAYS ... BA 7351 .... SINGAPORE ... GATE 80 ... 1410
SINGAPORE AIRLINES ... SQ236 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 85 ... 1440
VIRGIN ATLANTIC ... VS 7236 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 85 ... 1440
LUFTHANSA ... LH 9773 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 85 ... 1440


15 lines for 4 flights Really? It makes us look like Heathrow and what's Air China doing there? I assume it's to connect onto their Auckland-Beijing service (Operated by Air New Zealand of cource) BNE-AKL-PEK is one hell of a dog leg who'd book that? although having said that I wouldn't mind if I was expecting to fly Air China and get pleasantly surprised by Air New Zealand the whole way.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: mariner
Posted 2011-07-13 03:30:53 and read 5930 times.

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 35):
There are good and bad things about code shares but it seems we all talk about the bad.

I can't think of too many good things to say. It may be easier for the airlines and I guess for pax who don't want to think about what they're doing, but it doesn't work for me.

Before code-sharing was big time, I used to fly on round-the-world tickets from Australia and I got choose the airlines I wanted to fly and the routes I wanted to take. I had some unique flying experiences - Iraqi Airways Bangkok to Baghdad was one of them - LOL.

I never had problems with luggage, I never had problems with connections, I never had a problem with lounges.

In those days, airlines tried to have at least a little individual personality, these days it's all so bland. Fly United, they tell us, and in the OP's example you don't.

What I dislike the most is that it has made people lazy. I always use a travel agent for a complex ticket (they used to be able to get a great deals) but now too many just want to sell me off the rack tickets on one airline alliance.

Alliances and code sharing might work for the airlines but I'll build my own ticket. I don't just want to get there - I want to enjoy the journey.

mariner

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2011-07-13 03:32:27 and read 5935 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
For example, you might see a UA flight 5521 listed, and near that it will say "Operated by US Airways Flight 73", for a PHX-DEN routing.

They'd especially have to be careful since it's a SFO-SNA flight.  

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2011-07-13 03:50:58 and read 5903 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 33):
If you book an itinerary on non alliance airlines, you end up with as many tickets as the airlines you will fly.

But you don't end up with any tickets at all......all now is e-ticketed (of which there is no physical entity).

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2011-07-13 03:57:41 and read 5887 times.

Here's my issue when it comes to codesharing:

Consider this common scenario: Passenger is flying on a UA/US codeshare from Phx-Ord. The ticket says united, the flight number is united but the airplane is US. Now lets say that the 27 year old 737-300 operating our fictional flight from Phoenix to Chicago busts a fan blade, plane's out of service, flight's canceled. So, the passenger calls me, his travel agent, to get rebooked. I become a human ping pong ball. I call united, i'm told to call us air as it's their airplane that broke, i call us air, i'm told to call united as it's their ticket stock. After two phone calls and no service I'm invariably frustrated with both airlines. This is why, as a general rule, I don't book codeshares unless the passenger specifically requests it and even then I check the price difference between the codeshare flight and the airline actually operating the flight. If there's no difference I'll book the airline actually operating the flight instead of the codeshare because it saves hassle for me in the event of a delay or cancelation and also for the passenger at time of check in.

I've "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" when it comes to codeshares. When booking new reservations, I steer away from them if at all possible.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Grid
Posted 2011-07-13 08:35:13 and read 5718 times.

My only complaint is having to wait for the information screens at airports go through all of the codeshare flights. US Airways - United - Continental - Air China - Asiana.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: psa188
Posted 2011-07-13 10:04:01 and read 5661 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 19):
[quote=ytz,reply=19]Excellent article. I only wish Brett had been more critical of the airlines.

I agree. The article explains what the average passenger, who has no idea what "code sharing" is, can do to obtain more information. Buy I agree Cranky should have been more critical.

Quoting ytz (Reply 19):
Sometimes I wish consumer or civil aviation ministries in various countries would take airlines and the alliances to task for what is essentially a bait and switch tactic.

YES! Why wasn't this addressed in recent "flyer's rights" rules?

Quoting ytz (Reply 19):
Most on here might understand the practice. But it certainly does not excuse it or make it any less distasteful and outright bewildering to a non-frequent flier.

It's misleading/false advertising. Most FFs and a.netters understand it but it's confusing as hell to the casual flyer. This article, appearing in CNN, will hopefully allow normal folks understand codesharing.

Quoting ytz (Reply 19):
And other than miles and your bags being checked through, what other benefits do you get? You certainly can't access all your perks. And the effort involved in claiming them often compels people to simply forego them.

Unless you're a high-roller with Star, oneworld or skyteam, there's no benefit at all. In fact there's a downside if you go to terminal X for your flight only to be told to go to terminal Y because it's operated by Codeshare Air.

Quoting ytz (Reply 19):
And most hilariously, airlines complain about the likes of EK/EY/QR often forget that there's minimal code-sharing on these airlines. When you book a ticket on Emirates, you are virtually guaranteed to get an Emirates airplane and their level of service (whether you like it or not). It's something that sets these airlines apart.

Too bad EK/EY/QR don't compete on North Atlantic routes. I'm sure lots of folks would prefer to take those carriers to Europe.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-13 12:00:51 and read 5556 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 44):

But you don't end up with any tickets at all......all now is e-ticketed (of which there is no physical entity).

I don't know about you, but I always get an itinerary with my e ticket number and all the flights listed...including code share information.

Quoting psa188 (Reply 47):

It's misleading/false advertising. Most FFs and a.netters understand it but it's confusing as hell to the casual flyer. This article, appearing in CNN, will hopefully allow normal folks understand codesharing.

No it's not. Every codeshare booking I've been on has clearly said, "flight operated by..." on tthe ticket, e ticket or boarding pass. For the ridiculously low fares people pay, (and demand), there is little to complain about.

Quoting psa188 (Reply 47):

Unless you're a high-roller with Star, oneworld or skyteam, there's no benefit at all. In fact there's a downside if you go to terminal X for your flight only to be told to go to terminal Y because it's operated by Codeshare Air.

The benefits might be limited in the US but there are huge benefits for overseas travel. First off, it only takes two return AC tickets to DXB, (code sharing with LH at least half the way), to get upgrade vouchers with Aeroplan. As well, when there are problems, (and I've had plenty), it is much easier to get your ENTIRE trip sorted out if the airlines code share than not.

Regardless of what some believe, there is a difference in how a person, (even we lowly Y fliers), is treated by airlines if their entire trip is will one alliance. I have done both enough times to know that there are way more benefits to fly internationally on a single alliance than switching between them for a single journey.

As for changing terminals...that happens whether or not one's flight includes a code share segment...it happens a lot.

Quoting psa188 (Reply 47):

Too bad EK/EY/QR don't compete on North Atlantic routes. I'm sure lots of folks would prefer to take those carriers to Europe.

I have flown EK, EY and QR...their product, (at least in Y), isn't any more special than most other modern airlines...and not as good as some. There is nothing so magical about their product that makes them appreciably better than other airlines.

The seats on EK's 777's are, (or at least were a couple of years ago), absolutely terrible. Even on their old planes, AC and LH seats were superior. Now that everybody has upgraded to AVOD, the best the mid east carriers can do is compete on price.

I have had good and bad service with every airline I have flown with...with the exception of Singapore. Every flight with them was a pleasure...the best service in the air.

Another advantage to flying a single alliance overseas, (including code sharing flights), is that at many airports, alliance partners share the same terminal. That makes it much easier to transfer flights.

Code sharing is far from perfect but it doesn't take more than a little effort to work out the kinks for the average passenger than on any other flight.

If a person if self sufficient enough to fly alone, they should be able to handle a code share flight.

Regardless, as long as passengers demand dirt cheap ticket prices, they should expect dirt cheap service.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: psa188
Posted 2011-07-13 12:33:30 and read 5528 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 48):

No it's not. Every codeshare booking I've been on has clearly said, "flight operated by..." on tthe ticket, e ticket or boarding pass. For the ridiculously low fares people pay, (and demand), there is little to complain about.

If code sharing was not so confusing, I doubt that CNN would have paid Cranky the big bucks to write this article.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 48):
As for changing terminals...that happens whether or not one's flight includes a code share segment...it happens a lot.

You misunderstood. I was talking about the fun that comes when a pax ticketed on AirFee gets dropped off at Terminal 1. The pax goes to check in and can't because the flight is actually operated by Air Nickle&Dime over at Terminal 3. oops, the passenger has to run across the airport to check in, hopefully not too late.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 48):
I have flown EK, EY and QR...their product, (at least in Y), isn't any more special than most other modern airlines...and not as good as some. There is nothing so magical about their product that makes them appreciably better than other airlines.

I flew EK's Y class SFO-DXB last year, and loved it. While the seat is like any other Y seat, the food and "ice" IFE were excellent. Each passenger gets a thick book that explains all of the movies, TV shows and music that ICE has available on demand.

Trust me, I'd rather fly EK Y class from USA to Europe than take any US or Europe based airline. Of course, It's not worth it if you have to go SFO-FRA via DXB.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-13 12:41:28 and read 5517 times.

Quoting psa188 (Reply 49):
I flew EK's Y class SFO-DXB last year, and loved it. While the seat is like any other Y seat, the food and "ice" IFE were excellent. Each passenger gets a thick book that explains all of the movies, TV shows and music that ICE has available on demand.

Trust me, I'd rather fly EK Y class from USA to Europe than take any US or Europe based airline. Of course, It's not worth it if you have to go SFO-FRA via DXB.

Assume your SFO-DXB flight was a 777? I would rather connect in Europe to avoid their cramped 10-abreast 777s, regardless of the other aspects of EK inflight service.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ytz
Posted 2011-07-13 12:42:59 and read 5508 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 48):
Regardless, as long as passengers demand dirt cheap ticket prices, they should expect dirt cheap service.

Except codeshares aren't about service. Once again, you are talking apples and oranges with the rest of the room. Most of us aren't concerned with the existence of the practice. It's necessary, as you point out to make travel more accessible. That's fine.

But, I certainly disagree with the way its marketed. Yes, they tell you on the ticket, who is operating the airline. But the fact that it's a different airline code is confusing to most passengers. It's even more bewildering like the example I gave where I can book a YYZ-BOM trip on Delta without ever touching the USA. And quite often it's the code of the ticket you're booking (the codeshare) that's far more prominent.

You aren't thinking like the average passenger who flies maybe once a year and internationally, maybe once every 2-3 years. You are free to view them with contempt for finding the practice confusing. But it is what it is. And for most ordinary people, even if it isn't confusing, I do suspect that it's at least distasteful.

I suppose most of us just wish codeshares would work more like interline agreements.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-13 12:50:17 and read 5457 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 48):
Quoting psa188 (Reply 47):

Unless you're a high-roller with Star, oneworld or skyteam, there's no benefit at all. In fact there's a downside if you go to terminal X for your flight only to be told to go to terminal Y because it's operated by Codeshare Air.

The benefits might be limited in the US but there are huge benefits for overseas travel. First off, it only takes two return AC tickets to DXB, (code sharing with LH at least half the way), to get upgrade vouchers with Aeroplan. As well, when there are problems, (and I've had plenty), it is much easier to get your ENTIRE trip sorted out if the airlines code share than not.

Regardless of what some believe, there is a difference in how a person, (even we lowly Y fliers), is treated by airlines if their entire trip is will one alliance. I have done both enough times to know that there are way more benefits to fly internationally on a single alliance than switching between them for a single journey.

As for changing terminals...that happens whether or not one's flight includes a code share segment...it happens a lot.

The point that many posters have been making, which I also agree with, is that there is no reason to codeshare. All the benefits that come from alliance membership can just as easily be offered if the carriers operate under their own code, which then avoids any possible confusion as to which airline is operating, the service you will receive on the flight, and helps ensure that passengers don't check in at the wrong terminal. The only reason carriers codeshare (whether alliance members or not) is because the GDS systems many years ago started giving higher display priority to "online" connections displaying the same code, regardless of the fact that they really weren't "online".

As one example, UA and SQ are both important Star Alliance members but do not codeshare with each other. However, if you connect between UA and SQ you still obtain all the Star Alliance benefits. Codesharing does nothing other than lead to passenger confusion.

[Edited 2011-07-13 12:51:49]

[Edited 2011-07-13 13:05:56]

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ytz
Posted 2011-07-13 13:01:34 and read 5435 times.

Viscount724

Excellent reply in post 51.

Really, all the alliances need are solid interline agreements and standards. That would be much better than codeshares. And would eliminate confusion for passengers and the airlines (like when changes are made or flights are scrubbed and pax need rebooking).

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-13 14:26:01 and read 5378 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 51):
You are free to view them with contempt for finding the practice confusing.

Enough with the hyperbole. At one point I was an infrequent traveler and often fly with them. Not only am I not viewing them with contempt, I give them the credit of enough intelligence to be able to figure out with whom they are flying and from what gate they leave.

The boarding pass has all the information one needs about the gate they are using, the airline they are flying and any code share.

Millions of people fly every day without issue or problem on thousands of code sharing flights. Obviously, the problems aren't nearly as endemic as some would make it seem or few people on code sharing flights would make it safely to their destination.

With any system as complex and subject to interruption like the airline industry, there will be problems.

If code sharing is such a major problem, what are the solutions? What is the ideal, Utopian alternative to the current system?

The current system works pretty well for the vast majority of travelers. Any improvement for the tiny minority, mustn't come at the expense of the majority.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: psa188
Posted 2011-07-13 14:26:55 and read 5373 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 50):
Assume your SFO-DXB flight was a 777? I would rather connect in Europe to avoid their cramped 10-abreast 777s, regardless of the other aspects of EK inflight service.

Fair enough-to each their own. We'll have to disagree on this.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-13 14:43:41 and read 5349 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 54):
If code sharing is such a major problem, what are the solutions?

Just stop doing it. Why go to all the trouble of identifying the operating carrier on tickets and boarding passes, and filling airport flight information systems with 7 or 8 flight numbers for the same flight, when you can avoid all of that by simply using the operating carrier's code and flight number?

I'm surprised regulatory authorities didn't object to codesharing years ago based on the potential for misleading consumers.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: RobertS975
Posted 2011-07-13 20:02:45 and read 5159 times.

So you book a flight on your favorite airline's website, and if it happens to be a codeshare operated by another carrier, then you will have to check in with the other carrier, maybe a completely different terminal, another potential set of baggage rules and charges, a separate locator number on the operating carrier that is different from the locator given to you on the website by your carrier... codeshares are a reality but they are also a real mess for the unsuspecting.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ckfred
Posted 2011-07-13 20:19:10 and read 5124 times.

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 41):
The thing that really annoys about codeshares when you're trying to check the departure screen and you can't see your flight because the flight above is hogging 5-6 lines.

It's really ridiculous when you have


AIR NEW ZEALAND ... NZ 136 ... AUCKLAND ... GATE 78 ... 1225
CONTINENTAL ... CO 4886 ... AUCKLAND ... GATE 78 ... 1225
UNITED ... UA 9574 ... AUCKLAND ... GATE 78 ... 1225
AIR CHINA ... CA 5104 ... AUCKLAND ... GATE 78 ... 1225
THAI ... TG 474 ... BANGKOK ... GATE 82 ... 1400
LUFTHANSA ... LH 9759 ... BANGKOK ... GATE 82 ... 1400
QANTAS ... QF 51 ... SINGAPORE / MUMBAI ... GATE 80 ... 1410
AIR FRANCE ... AF 8089 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 80 ... 1410
AIR INDIA ... AI 4051 ... SINGAPORE / MUMBAI ... GATE 80 ... 1410
FINNAIR ... AY 5008 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 80 ... 1410
JAPAN AIRLINES ... JL 5078 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 80 ... 1410
BRITISH AIRWAYS ... BA 7351 .... SINGAPORE ... GATE 80 ... 1410
SINGAPORE AIRLINES ... SQ236 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 85 ... 1440
VIRGIN ATLANTIC ... VS 7236 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 85 ... 1440
LUFTHANSA ... LH 9773 ... SINGAPORE ... GATE 85 ... 1440


15 lines for 4 flights Really? It makes us look like Heathrow and what's Air China doing there? I assume it's to connect onto their Auckland-Beijing service (Operated by Air New Zealand of cource) BNE-AKL-PEK is one hell of a dog leg who'd book that? although having said that I wouldn't mind if I was expecting to fly Air China and get pleasantly surprised by Air New Zealand the whole way.

You think its bad looking for a departing flight in the terminal. Try dealing with this stuff on an arrival board while waiting in a cell phone lot at ORD. You know that people their are wanting to see UA and AA arrivals, for the most part. You don't need to see the AF codeshare with DL from SLC or the AC codeshare with UA from OKC.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-13 21:16:37 and read 5085 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 56):

I'm surprised regulatory authorities didn't object to codesharing years ago based on the potential for misleading consumers.

If it didn't work, it would have been killed a long time ago. The fact is, most people aren't confused or are able to overcome their confusion and manage to get on the correct flight so in reality, it's really not much of an issue for the majority, most of the time.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 58):
You think its bad looking for a departing flight in the terminal. Try dealing with this stuff on an arrival board while waiting in a cell phone lot at ORD. You know that people their are wanting to see UA and AA arrivals, for the most part. You don't need to see the AF codeshare with DL from SLC or the AC codeshare with UA from OKC.

Most people naturally narrow their search down first by destination and departure time. They don't start with a search for the airline. That way, they only have to worry about the few flights to where they are going and not every flight by a certain airline. The most complex board is easily simplified by this very basic technique.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2011-07-13 23:45:33 and read 4986 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 56):

Just stop doing it. Why go to all the trouble of identifying the operating carrier on tickets and boarding passes, and filling airport flight information systems with 7 or 8 flight numbers for the same flight, when you can avoid all of that by simply using the operating carrier's code and flight number?
Quoting ytz (Reply 53):

Really, all the alliances need are solid interline agreements and standards. That would be much better than codeshares.

Just to reiterate: Codeshares also move certain flights up in the listings, especially if you're booking on a specific airline's website or searching by airline on a GDS.

Interline agreements don't achieve this.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ckfred
Posted 2011-07-14 14:14:29 and read 4683 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 59):
Most people naturally narrow their search down first by destination and departure time. They don't start with a search for the airline. That way, they only have to worry about the few flights to where they are going and not every flight by a certain airline. The most complex board is easily simplified by this very basic technique.

But the arrival board in the cell phone lot only shows about 20 flights at a time. If you're waiting for a person coming from PIT, and the board is showing arrivals ALB, ABQ, ATL with all of the codeshares, it takes a number of turns of the board before you get to PNS, PHL, and PIT. If you could eliminate the BA, LH, IB and other codeshares, it would take fewer turns of the board to get from Albany to Wichita.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-14 15:06:54 and read 4626 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 60):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 56):

Just stop doing it. Why go to all the trouble of identifying the operating carrier on tickets and boarding passes, and filling airport flight information systems with 7 or 8 flight numbers for the same flight, when you can avoid all of that by simply using the operating carrier's code and flight number?
Quoting ytz (Reply 53):

Really, all the alliances need are solid interline agreements and standards. That would be much better than codeshares.

Just to reiterate: Codeshares also move certain flights up in the listings, especially if you're booking on a specific airline's website or searching by airline on a GDS.

Interline agreements don't achieve this.

However, by giving higher priority to codeshare connections in GDS displays, it can be argued that passengers often are not made aware of faster connections involving carriers that do not codeshare, but where the interline connections are buried on the 2nd or 3rd screen of the display.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2011-07-14 15:18:34 and read 4609 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 62):
However, by giving higher priority to codeshare connections in GDS displays, it can be argued that passengers often are not made aware of faster connections involving carriers that do not codeshare, but where the interline connections are buried on the 2nd or 3rd screen of the display.

   precisely indeed. Codeshares never helped passengers achieve anything.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 60):
Interline agreements don't achieve this.

There's no need for it to be achieved in the first place.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2011-07-14 16:41:44 and read 4556 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 63):

There's no need for it to be achieved in the first place.

There is for the business.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2011-07-14 17:04:37 and read 4538 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 39):
What many of us are arguing, however, is that the deceptive marketing of codeshares has to come to an end.



Recently, I have been deciding on where in SE Asia I wanted to fly. The different options on the list were HKG, KUL, SIN, TPE and (although not SE Asia) ICN. I looked at a myriad of carriers (AF, KL, CI, KE), and if any flight was booked through a different carrier, it said it in big bold letters on each of their websites. No confusion there, unless you are unable to read, then, I think codeshares are the least of your concerns at that point.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 57):
maybe a completely different terminal, another potential set of baggage rules and charges, a separate locator number on the operating carrier that is different from the locator given to you on the website by your carrier... codeshares are a reality but they are also a real mess for the unsuspecting.



Now I can understand this to an extent, if you are looking for one flight number then maybe. But if we are going on the assumption that it is confusing for the "masses," who really learns their flight number? They look for where they are going on the board, then see which one corresponds with their flight time, batta bing, batta boom, if it is listed by four other carriers, they disregard it, no confusion there. Also, boards in ATL don't list each flight separately, they just have each carrier rolling through the space where the destination/departure time is listed.

Quoting Brett's article from Cranky:

Sure, it’s disclosed (required by law in the US) but people don’t always read every detail. . One of the biggest complaints on airliners.net was that codesharing fills departure screens with a ton of flight numbers for the exact same flight so it just makes it more time-consuming to get the information you need.



Again, I think both of these are extremely superficial.

Quoting Brett's article from Cranky:
There’s also the issue of product consistency. Airlines may codeshare but that says nothing about consistency between the products onboard.



Slam dunk right there. I don't think it is being discussed as much on here, but this I think is the key (especially those fliers from Central Europe/Asia/and the Middle East being dumped on US carriers). If you book a trip on LH or EY (and you pay to be on these carriers) there should be a same standard of treatment throughout your trip. Taking LH as an example again, if you are normally flying routes in Europe and become accustomed to LH standards, you will be disappointed if you show up at FRA and are put on a UA flight across the pond.

I also go back to my original seat issue as well. If airlines are going to codeshare, they should definitely have the same seating policy. That would almost be worth an addendum to the current disclosure rules.



At the end of the day, much like Joe, I had an extremely positive experience on a codeshare flight. I am not a super medallion elite flier, I was just caught in a pickle this past winter (thanks again LHR) at CDG and my personal hero, an AF agent, got me on a plane so I could make it home for my wedding. I had booked through Delta and was actually supposed to be on DL metal for the leg between CDG and ATL, but she got me on an AF plane and I got married.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: RP TPA
Posted 2011-07-14 19:04:41 and read 4445 times.

Quoting kanepjk (Reply 23):
I once had a multi leg trip that was ticketed by Delta with a leg that had a US Air flt number flown on a United aircraft. When I had to make a change to that leg it was extremely difficult because all three airlines told me to call one of the others.
- Delta told me to call US air as it was their flt number.
- US Air told me to call United as they were operating the flight.
- United told me to call Delta because they had issued the ticket.

In the end I couldn't solve it over the phone and had to go to the airport so i could draw them a flow chart of the whole convoluted mess.
Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 45):
Consider this common scenario: Passenger is flying on a UA/US codeshare from Phx-Ord. The ticket says united, the flight number is united but the airplane is US. Now lets say that the 27 year old 737-300 operating our fictional flight from Phoenix to Chicago busts a fan blade, plane's out of service, flight's canceled. So, the passenger calls me, his travel agent, to get rebooked. I become a human ping pong ball. I call united, i'm told to call us air as it's their airplane that broke, i call us air, i'm told to call united as it's their ticket stock. After two phone calls and no service I'm invariably frustrated with both airlines. This is why, as a general rule, I don't book codeshares unless the passenger specifically requests it and even then I check the price difference between the codeshare flight and the airline actually operating the flight. If there's no difference I'll book the airline actually operating the flight instead of the codeshare because it saves hassle for me in the event of a delay or cancelation and also for the passenger at time of check in.

Unfortunately, these scenarios occur much more than you think. Many airline agents dont know what do to if multiple airlines/codeshares are on the ticket, so they will give you the easy answer, which is "THEY (ie:someone else) have to help you". I work for a major airline, and can give you dozens of examples. The simple answer is this....if it's a voluntary change, and there is only one airline remaining on the ticket, that airline does the change. If it's a codeshare flight number, that airline is considered the marketing carrier, and therefore if they are the only airline remaining, they do the exchange, regardless of whose ticket it is. So, as an example, if only LH flight numbers remain on the ticket, then LH should make the change and reissue the ticket, even if it's someone else's ticket stock.. If only DL flight numbers remain on the ticket, then DL should reissue, again regardless of whose ticket it is. If, however, there are multiple airlines remaining on the ticket, then the airline who issued the ticket must do the reissue. Almost every day I get calls from passengers who have only one other airline on their ticket, but that airline tells the passenger to call our airline because we issued the ticket. BUT.....when it's the other way around, when it's the other airline's ticket and the passenger calls them to change our flights, the other airline changes their tune. Now we have to reissue it because they arent flying on that other airline, and the passenger is told to deal with the airline they are flying on,. It's classic "pass the buck" mentality.

In the case of irops (cancelled flights), it is the responsibility of the airline who is operating the cancelled flight to assist you. It doesnt matter whose flight number it is, nor whose ticket it is. Again, I receive calls from passengers who are sent away from another airlines tkt counter because even though they had cancelled the flight, they refuse to assist because it isnt their ticket.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: GoBoeing
Posted 2011-07-14 19:21:23 and read 4427 times.

One place is doing it right.

Southwest Airlines.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-14 22:44:47 and read 4252 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 65):
who really learns their flight number?

Right...Ask someone what flight they are on and they will give you the ETD, destination and airline. Almost nobody memorizes the flight number and even fewer memorize the airline code.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 67):
One place is doing it right.

Southwest Airlines.

Southwest wanted to code share with WS, but WS backed out.

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 66):

Unfortunately, these scenarios occur much more than you think.

So how often? And how many people are generally effected? Once a day? Multiple times a day? Does it happen as often to all airlines?

As far as I can tell, the majority of passengers get to their destination as scheduled most of the time, so for most, the system works. Unfortunately, people will sometimes fall through the cracks and if one flies enough, eventually it will be them.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2011-07-15 02:43:16 and read 4139 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 68):
Right...Ask someone what flight they are on and they will give you the ETD, destination and airline. Almost nobody memorizes the flight number and even fewer memorize the airline code.

I assume you're using a pretty small sample there, correct?

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 68):

So how often? And how many people are generally effected? Once a day? Multiple times a day? Does it happen as often to all airlines?

Multiple times to the power of about 10 on a daily basis, and all airlines are involved.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-15 15:10:17 and read 3847 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 69):
I assume you're using a pretty small sample there, correct?

Just the sample of everyone I know who has ever traveled by plane. If you ask a person what flight they are on, how often do they give the flight number? I'll bet they say some thing like; "the 10:30 American flight to Dubuque". That's how they look for their flights on the board...departure time, airline and destination...and they cross check between them.

Most people I know fly maybe 2 or three times a decade and do so without any major problems...alone, without any guide, armed only with their itinerary and their brains. That's more than enough for most people.

The board at the airport is no more complex than many things people have to deal with ever day of their lives...and probably less confusing than the board at the cineplex, finding a parking spot downtown anywhere, learning how to use the DVR or sorting out the apps on ones iphone. Compared to the AVOD on most planes, the destination board is a piece of cake.

It seems the people with the problems with code sharing are the agents of the partner airlines who have to deal with the passengers when something goes wrong. Basically, if your airline is on a code share ticket, expect to have to deal with the problems of any of the code sharing airlines should something go wrong. It might not be exactly how things should be done but it's a customer service business and like customers anywhere, they expect agents to do the heavy lifting and set right what has gone wrong. Sure, it's not totally fair to the agents but if you don't like dealing with problems, you're probably in the wrong business.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 69):
Multiple times to the power of about 10 on a daily basis, and all airlines are involved.

...and yet, most people seem to arrive at their destinations without problem. What are the proportions of passengers or flights that experience problems with code sharing to those who don't? If there were so many problems on a majority of code sharing flights, one might logically assume with all of my flights, I would have had problems on the majority of code sharing flights...but the opposite has been true for me. I have hundreds of flight legs under my belt on dozens of airlines around the world, so my experience is probably a pretty decent sample.

Code sharing is mostly a made for news problem. If nothing changed after the code share issue was brought up in connection with something as serious as Calgon in Buffalo, expect to have to live with it for a long time to come.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2011-07-15 21:24:05 and read 3676 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 70):
It seems the people with the problems with code sharing are the agents of the partner airlines who have to deal with the passengers when something goes wrong.

Read your own statement again, and maybe you'll want to revise it.

It's kind of like saying "the people with the problems with contaminated food are the health inspectors, who have to deal with the press when bacteria-laden food gets out to the public." Uhhh, kinda missing the point??

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2011-07-15 22:42:25 and read 3615 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 71):

Read your own statement again, and maybe you'll want to revise it.

Nope. it's just as I intended, thanks.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 71):

It's kind of like saying "the people with the problems with contaminated food are the health inspectors, who have to deal with the press when bacteria-laden food gets out to the public." Uhhh, kinda missing the point??

It's actually not like saying that at all. For one thing, code sharing isn't breaking the law, so the comparison really isn't very applicable...uhhh...so it's kinda not missing the point.

Code sharing isn't bothering passengers very much. The very vast majority aren't adversely effected by it in the least. If something does go wrong, then agents are on the front line to deal with it. Sometimes agents have to deal with problems from other airlines, who happen to code share with them and it's not strictly their responsibility...which is not really that different from most other jobs.

Agents are hired and trained to deal with problems.

There are so many other, much more critical problems with the airline industry that code sharing doesn't even appear on the radar...and isn't likely to change in the near future.

As it is, it's only an issue on a slow news day. How many articles have been devoted to it in the past year? People have more important things to worry about.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2011-07-16 00:07:13 and read 3562 times.

I'm have not been too surprised by code sharing practices, I normally check what I'm flying before I purchase tickets, as I do care about who I fly with. I guess some people might have forgotten to do that.

I do want to bring up a couple practical issues, however. The first issue is that on some booking tools you'll end up having a long list of the same offered flights as the tools go through the various code share options. This makes it hard for you to skip an option (say, if you wanted to avoid BA).

The second issue is that on many airports, the big flight displays show codeshare flights on multiple lines. Say, if one flight is shared between five airlines, then that consumes 5 lines from the 20-line display, making it harder to see what other flights there are. I don't think the airports should allow this... you have one real flight, you should only get one spot on the display.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: BD338
Posted 2011-07-16 06:01:48 and read 3473 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 56):
Just stop doing it. Why go to all the trouble of identifying the operating carrier on tickets and boarding passes, and filling airport flight information systems with 7 or 8 flight numbers for the same flight, when you can avoid all of that by simply using the operating carrier's code and flight number?

Either that or lets just have a code for each alliance and forget all the individual airline codes, that would reduce the codeshares by probably 80%. Non aligned carriers would continue with their own codes and if they linked to an alliance the first flight would be their code and the second the alliance code (as Viscount724)

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ytz
Posted 2011-07-16 10:37:26 and read 3343 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 65):
No confusion there, unless you are unable to read, then, I think codeshares are the least of your concerns at that point.

The deceptive marketing I was referring to wasn't just flying on different metal. To me, it also has to do with product quality. And this is the part that befuddles most muggles. Like it or not, most regular folk just book, they don't bother clicking on the logo to see that they are on a codeshare. I'll bet money on this. And then they end up on different metal. No big deal until there's a service difference. Consider for example the difference between AC and LH. AC's J class is closer to LH F class than to its J product. It would suck if you get put on LH J when you intended to fly AC J class.

All that said, most of the people who are unknowledgeable about codeshares aren't frequent fliers and probably aren't flying in anything more than Y/Y+ so it really doesn't make a difference to them.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2011-07-16 10:53:09 and read 3320 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 64):
There is for the business.

What business are you referring to?

Quoting ytz (Reply 75):
they don't bother clicking on the logo to see that they are on a codeshare

And they shouldn't have to.

Quoting ytz (Reply 75):
No big deal until there's a service difference
Quoting ytz (Reply 75):
All that said, most of the people who are unknowledgeable about codeshares aren't frequent fliers and probably aren't flying in anything more than Y/Y+ so it really doesn't make a difference to them.

It's a very big deal indeed, plus you'd be very wrong in your assumption of what matters.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: panova98
Posted 2011-07-16 12:06:23 and read 3267 times.

Let's call "code-sharing" what it is. It's a sham! Under DOT rules, it ought to be found as a deceptive practice, regardless of the myriad of ways in which the airlines would like you to believe they are disclosing everything so clearly.

4 types of code-shares I refer to:

(1) the "operated by" regional situation, where someone like UA markets the flight, but then "discloses" that the flight is operated by, thank you, United Express, which in and of itself on leads to more confusion, but then has to disclose that the United Express service is actually operated by some other company like Colgan, Trans States, GoJet, whatever,
(2) the domestic situation where one airline markets and the other one flies, like when US markets the flight but UA actually flies the plane,
(3) the hodge-podge that is UA and CO these days where you sort of have to guess what is going on, and
(4) the international situation where many diferent airlines in the "alliance" market the flights, but only one member of the alliance operates the plane.

As a seasoned traveler, I think I know what is going on, but it is very confusing and so unnecessary. I can imagine what the non-frequent traveler goes through--where do I check in, whose rules govern, if this darn thing crashes, will anyone know I was on that flight, etc. And the DOT is supposed to ensure that the rules are there for everyone, whether you are a frequent or a once-in-a-lifetime traveler.

If code-share flight numbering was so great, why does ATC, air traffic control, totally ignore it and call every flight by the name and flight number, or other number of the operating carrier? As was pretty well stated earlier, everything that code-sharing might provide travelers a benefit could, and should be handled otherwise under interlining or alliance agreements, or simply as normal, everyday good airline business practices and policies.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2011-07-16 12:07:29 and read 3269 times.

Codesharing is the most natural thing on earth, except for the name.

When two or more airlines are codesharing on a flight, then they share everything, plane, crew, terminal, gate etc.

The only thing which they don't share is the code.

At least in Europe there are often three or even four flight codes on the same flight. That's an inconvenience. Most often the displays in the terminals are not capable of dealing properly with multiple codes. At some airports the displays are alternating every ten seconds or so showing the various codes. Consequently it can take quite some time to read what should be known by a glimpse.

I look forward to the day when codesharing becomes sharing codes also. There is no valid reason why some trivial Lufthansa flight from A to B shall have three flight codes just because Swiss and Scandinavian also sell seats on it.

Please let codesharing become codesharing, or at least change the name so it doesn't describe the opposite of what it is.

Topic: RE: Interesting CNN Article On Codesharing
Username: ytz
Posted 2011-07-16 14:44:28 and read 3180 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 78):
Please let codesharing become codesharing, or at least change the name so it doesn't describe the opposite of what it is.

This is an excellent point. The name of the practice itself is actually deceptive. Neither of the airlines participating in what we know as codesharing is actually sharing any code. More odd, I would suggest that what happens today should actually be named interlining. And what is interlining should actually be called codesharing.


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